#109600 From: Kevin F Date: Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] No conventional actions, they don't matter at all? farrellkevin80 Hi Sarah: > Kevin: An Arahant, or any Ariya can kill himself. That is not a problem. I > think some Arahants did because they had deadly diseases. ... Ssarah: Show us the text! Kevin: Hi Sarah. You know I have been researching this more since then. I have found some interesting things. The most interesting case is that of Venerable Channa. He announced to Sariputta that he was going to take his life, and also that he would not be reborn. Sariputta left and went to the Buddha, after imploring Channa not to take the knife and offering his assistance and so on. After Sariputta left, Channa took his life anyway. Sariputta then questioned the Buddha about it and the Buddha basically said that Channa had told you himself that he would not be reborn, and that his action was not blamewhorthy because of that. He said that it is blameworthy if he would be reborn. Now the Commentary explains that Channa became an Arahant at the moment of death, after taking up the knife. But that is not in line with how Channa pronounced that he would have no more rebirths to Sariputta before he took up the knife. Nor with the Buddha's words to Sariputta along the lines that "Channa told you himself that he would not be reborn". It's very interesting. I will need to study it and research more to understand. Thanks, Kevin #109601 From: Kevin F Date: Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha and Ayurvedic Medicine farrellkevin80 Hi Sarah: Sarah: Actually, I enjoyed your post. You made it very on-topic with your helpful references and reflections... Kevin: Sarah, that was a very interesting and exciting post. Thank you! Those two suttas that you provided were not the ones I had in mind, but they do explain the same point the one I did have in mind very lucidly! If I come accross the Sutta I read again, I will certainly post it! It is interesting that Jivaka, the Buddha's physician was an ayurvedic expert. I wonder about many points of Aryurceda when I was a monk. For example, I have always been prone to wind illnesses. My constitution is mostly bile and wind, and the wind easily becomes aggrevated. When I became a monk I feared that many aspects of the monks life would increase my wind conditions. For example, every time one makes a major change, it can vitiate wind. When someone already has predominate wind, this can be very disturbing. Taking up the monks life itself is a great change. Also, one disrupts ones normal eating habits by not taking the evening meal. This change in routine can disrupt wind as well. On top of that any time one denies ones bodily functions it can cause an increase in wind ailment. A monk does this all the time by refraining from any sexual acts or stimulation. I feared all these things would disturb my wind more. But then I realized some interesting things. When one is barefoot as a bhikkhu, this helps to ground one and stabilize kappha (phlegm) which goes against wind. Of course that is not the reason for the practice, but it is a result of it. When one calms ones mind in meditation, this stability stabalizes wind and decreases wind ailments. Also, even though one changes ones eating habits and refrains from the evening meal, denying a bodily function, the result is increased heat because of augmenting of the digestion, this increases the bile humour and stablizes wind as well. So there are many things that counteract the wind illnesses that could ocurr from living like a bhikkhu. It would be great to ask Jivaka about some of these things! (what a deluded, deluded thought....) Thanks a lot for you post and for you appreciation of my post. All the best, Kevin ___________ #109602 From: Kevin F Date: Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: intentional actions. farrellkevin80 Hi again SArah: You wrote to pt: >I remember that it was said sometime ago that akusala can be a condition for >kusala - like when panna recognises dosa (which has just fallen away) as >akusala, ... S: Yes, but that doesn't mean that dosa is encouraged:-) Kevin: Can one cause more dosa to arise intentionally or deliberately? I don't understand... Kevin ___________ #109603 From: Kevin F Date: Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Intentional development, simplified farrellkevin80 Dear Ken O, all, Ken: Intent can arise with kusala and akusala. even going to Bkk is an intentional activity, the old monks that went to listen to Buddha, must have been intent to listen. One cannot allude all intentional activity as akusala because Abhidhamma is very clear, there is kusala and akusala intent. Kevin: Very lucidly put. Thanks, Kevin ___________ #109604 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] news of Phra Kom, Amatakavesago nilovg Dear Sarah, I was just thinking of him a few days ago. I am delighted with news about him and his teaching of Abhidhamma. Wonderful that there is such an interest in the Dhamma where he lives. Nina. Op 29-aug-2010, om 14:56 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > I had a little correspondence with Phra Kom's sister recently and > sent him a copy of your Conditions and one of Rupas today to his > temple. #109605 From: Kevin F Date: Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Studnets of Ajahn Sujin think there is a subtle self farrellkevin80 Hi Asita, Asita: quote (Kevin): students of Ajahn Sujin think there is a subtle self. Asita:I wonder if you realise Kevin, jst how many students there are of A.S. Are you including all her Thai listeners, which there are many plus the Thais who listen to her radio broadcasts? Asita: ...presumably you have developed maagical powers as well to enable you to see all of these peoples wrong view. Amazing! Keivn: All the people that think you can deliberately stop unwholesome cetasikas from arising by *not* engaging in meditation! Thanks, Kevin #109606 From: Kevin F Date: Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Intentional development, simplified farrellkevin80 Hi Asita, Asita: > > Kevin: You don't see why "risk wrong view". You have wrong view anyway (not > just you of course but all people including me) during daily life. Can you > intentionallu cause less wrong view by not engaging in meditation of samattha? asita: I understood that sotapannas no longer have wrong view, so I'm wondering why you are stating here that you have wrong view. Mayb you mean something different here? Kevin: I should have been more specific: ignorance! Kevin ___________ #109607 From: Kevin F Date: Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] notes from Bangkok with A.Sujin 2a farrellkevin80 Hello again Sarah, Thanks a lot for your post! Sarah: And I rejoice in your mudita (sympathetic joy)! It makes it easy to share our good fortune when friends rejoice, doesn't it? Kevin: It certainly does! Sarah: I also really appreciated the way you carefully went through all my notes for this installment. I read out some of them in the discussion yesterday to Ajahn and will share her responses. You're most welcome to add further comments. (Apologies for the formatting problems when I sent my last notes - hopefully I've corrected it now). Kevin: Thanks for sharing and discussing them with Ajah. No worries, I did not see any problem in formatting! Sarah: >Sarah: 1. Breath & jhanas *It depends on an individual's accumulations. If one just decides to take it up, bound to be akusala.* >Kevin: Is this true for all the people that took it up after being advised to >by the Buddha, such as Girmananda ( I will attach the sutta below)? *** KS: Who was he? (S: Implication: do we have the same wisdom as Girimananda and do we have a Buddha who knows all the accumulations?) =========================== Kevin: I admit that the Buddha would have known Girimananda's specific accumulations, yes. ============================ Sarah: >Sarah: If we understand the Eightfold Path, there's no need to talk about jhana – less attachment, more understanding >Kevin: Is that why the Buddha mentioned it hundreds or thousands (or tens of thousands) of times? *** KS: Samatha and vipassana. No need for extra samatha. What's better? ============================ (to the above) Kevin: What's better? That is just attachment to vipassana or aversion for lower kusala. All kusala is good (and a support for wisdom). ============================= Sarah: >Sarah: When it's appealing to have breath as object, it's attachment. >Kevin: It appealed to anyone who has had the object as their subject. Are they >attached? > **** KS: Wishing! =============================== (to the above) Kevin: Panna can know that not being concentrated and instead being diffuse is unwholesome. Then there can be kusala citta that wants to practice samattha. It happens all the time. =========================== Sarah: >Sarah: Did those in the past who had breath as object select it or have such an object by accumulations? >Kevin: Given that the Buddha always praised it, he was obviously hoping people >would select it. > *** KS: Without the accumulations, can anyone have selected an object? Only accumulations conditions that moment of calm or satipatthana, not selection. (Rob added: mahapurisa, sons of Buddhas only.) =========================== (to the above) Kevin: Yes, accumulations. As to Rob's comment. It is true that only Mahapurisa can use the subject of anapanasati for gaining mastery of jhanas. The reason is that as you go through the tetrads, and as concentration gets deeper, the subject becomes more and more sublte. However, any one can practice the meditation. This is pretty clear from the Vism description of it. In fact, the first tetrad is suitable for all and can even lead to access concentration. I don't see any problems with that. ============================ Sarah: >Sarah: Only if one really sees the danger of sense objects in a day like the wise people in the old days could, enough to have kusala and know how it could grow, so that there was no experience of sense objects. >Kevin: And what do those people do? As per Vism, they first count the in breaths and out breaths so the mind isn't distracted because it is not always naturally with the object, etc. "Like a person counting grains" and *then* "like a cowherd". *** KS: With or without kusala cittas? ============================ (to the above) Kevin: I am sure it was sometimes with kusala and sometimes without. Are we to think that every person who practiced samattha in the suttas or thereafter had only moments of kusala citta when meditating? It does not stand to reason. Definitely there were some moments that were akusala mixed in there. It could be no other way. In fact some people in the suttas struggled and wanted to commit suicide because they had attained jhana and lost it, attained it again and lost it again, and again and again, and so on and so forth, many times. I am thinking of one specific example. I will try to get the name. Do you think they had only kusala moments in those cases? Yet they attained jhanas. Thanks a lot for your posts Sarah. Kevin #109608 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:53 pm Subject: Suicide DN16 Ud8.9 truth_aerator Dear KenO, all, > KO:?The correct explanation?is that?it is impossible for pacceka >buddhas to kill themselves because they do not have any dosa cetasika >to condition to kill.? Could an Arahant kill him/herself due to other reasons? Example: not to be a burden to others or to demonstrate some point (ex: not clinging to life)? The Buddha Gotama did renounce His life faculty (in DN16 Relinquishing the Will to Live). While not being a direct suicide, it was indirect and prolonged one. If a person depends on life support to live and willfully switches it off, even if one dies 3 month later as a result of this, it is indirect suicide. "With inward calm and joy he breaks, As though a coat of mail, his own life's cause. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html#fnt-26 It is like a person depending on life support to live, switches it off and knowing fully when death will come. In case of the Buddha it was 3 month. In Udana 8.9 Dabba Mallaputta has committed what looks like a suicide using his magic powers. Then Ven. Dabba Mallaputta went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Now is the time for my total Unbinding, O One-Well-Gone!" "Then do, Dabba, what you think it is now time to do." Then Ven. Dabba Mallaputta, rising from his seat, bowed down to the Blessed One and, circling him on the right, rose up into the air and sat cross-legged in the sky, in space. Entering the fire property and emerging from it, he was totally unbound. Now, when Dabba Mallaputta rose up into the air and, sitting cross-legged in the sky, in space, entered the fire property and then emerged from it and was totally unbound, his body burned and was consumed so that neither ashes nor soot could be discerned http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.8.09.than.html With metta, Alex #109609 From: Kevin F Date: Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Suicide DN16 Ud8.9 farrellkevin80 Dear Alex, all, Friends, here is the whole sutta: Dabba Sutta "I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Dabba Mallaputta went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Now is the time for my total Unbinding, O One-Well-Gone!" "Then do, Dabba, what you think it is now time to do." Then Ven. Dabba Mallaputta, rising from his seat, bowed down to the Blessed One and, circling him on the right, rose up into the air and sat cross-legged in the sky, in space. Entering the fire property and emerging from it, he was totally unbound. Now, when Dabba Mallaputta rose up into the air and, sitting cross-legged in the sky, in space, entered the fire property and then emerged from it and was totally unbound, his body burned and was consumed so that neither ashes nor soot could be discerned. Just as when ghee or oil is burned and consumed, neither ashes nor soot can be discerned, in the same way, when Dabba Mallaputta rose up into the air and, sitting cross-legged in the sky, in space, entered the fire property and then emerged from it and was totally unbound, his body burned and was consumed so that neither ashes nor soot could be discerned. Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: The body disintegrated, perception ceased, pain & rapture were entirely consumed, fabrications were stilled: consciousness has come to its end." www.accesstoinsight.org Kevin: I wonder how the Commentary tries to get around that one. Kevin #109610 From: Kevin F Date: Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] No conventional actions, they don't matter at all? farrellkevin80 Hi All, Initially I wrote: Kevin: > Hi Sarah: > Kevin: An Arahant, or any Ariya can kill himself. That is not a problem. I > think some Arahants did because they had deadly diseases. ... Ssarah: Show us the text! >Kevin: Hi Sarah. You know I have been researching this more since then. I have found some interesting things. The most interesting case is that of Venerable Channa. He announced to Sariputta that he was going to take his life, and also that he would not be reborn. Sariputta left and went to the Buddha, after imploring Channa not to take the knife and offering his assistance and so on. After Sariputta left, Channa took his life anyway. Sariputta then questioned the Buddha about it and the Buddha basically said that Channa had told you himself that he would not be reborn, and that his action was not blamewhorthy because of that. He said that it is blameworthy if he would be reborn. Now the Commentary explains that Channa became an Arahant at the moment of death, after taking up the knife. But that is not in line with how Channa pronounced that he would have no more rebirths to Sariputta before he took up the knife. Nor with the Buddha's words to Sariputta along the lines that "Channa told you himself that he would not be reborn". It's very interesting. I will need to study it and research more to understand. Thanks, Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Now I write from the other thread: Dear Alex, all, Friends, here is the whole sutta: Dabba Sutta "I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Dabba Mallaputta went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Now is the time for my total Unbinding, O One-Well-Gone!" "Then do, Dabba, what you think it is now time to do." Then Ven. Dabba Mallaputta, rising from his seat, bowed down to the Blessed One and, circling him on the right, rose up into the air and sat cross-legged in the sky, in space. Entering the fire property and emerging from it, he was totally unbound. Now, when Dabba Mallaputta rose up into the air and, sitting cross-legged in the sky, in space, entered the fire property and then emerged from it and was totally unbound, his body burned and was consumed so that neither ashes nor soot could be discerned. Just as when ghee or oil is burned and consumed, neither ashes nor soot can be discerned, in the same way, when Dabba Mallaputta rose up into the air and, sitting cross-legged in the sky, in space, entered the fire property and then emerged from it and was totally unbound, his body burned and was consumed so that neither ashes nor soot could be discerned. Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: The body disintegrated, perception ceased, pain & rapture were entirely consumed, fabrications were stilled: consciousness has come to its end." www.accesstoinsight.org Kevin: I wonder how the Commentary tries to get around that one. Kevin #109611 From: "bhikkhu3" Date: Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:38 pm Subject: No Substance is 'Out_There'! bhikkhu5 Friends: No Substance exists 'out there', nor any Subject 'in here'! The Blessed Buddha once said: In the seen is merely the process of seeing... In the heard is merely the process of hearing... In the sensed is merely the process of sensing... In the thought is merely the process of thinking... So knowing, you will not be connected 'with that'... So disconnected you will not be absorbed 'into that'... So neither 'with that', nor 'within that' you are not 'by that' sensation! When there is no 'You' inferred or conjectured by that very sensation, then 'You' are neither 'here', 'there', 'both', 'beyond', nor 'in between'. On realizing the importance of this incident the Blessed One exclaimed: Where neither solidity, fluidity, heat nor motion find any footing, there no sun, moon nor star ever shines. There is neither any light, yet nor is there any darkness! When the Noble, through stilling of all construction, through quieting of all mental formation, directly experiences this, then is he freed from both form & formlessness, then is he released from both pleasure and pain ... Comments: There is no-one 'who' senses, nor is there any 'substance' that is sensed, even though the process of sensing occurs! Seeing is just a selfless event of contact between the eye, the object & visual consciousness. Neither is any 'person', nor any 'observer' involved nor inferred just by this seeing! No subject or 'I' is thereby created, just because there is an object, or just because there occurs the impersonal, automatic process of sensing... Sensing itself, thus neither create any object, nor any subject, just as a camera - though making an image - neither creates the object, nor does the camera create the photographer! Thus can neither any 'substance', nor 'reality out there' per se be ascribed to neither object, nor subject: Just because there is a picture, one cannot by that in itself infer or even ascribe any existence to neither the object, nor the picture-maker! Both may actually be artificial, or of past existence and not real anymore ... The fact that there is an image projected, does not per se imply, in or by itself, that any-one actually is 'looking in' or 'is behind' the camera ? 'By that' perception no 'perceiver' is thereby instrumentally present or created... So the 'personal entity' we assume, suppose, deduce, expect & believe to enjoy our experience, is merely a mental construct, a habitual idea, a concept, & not a reality... The passive impersonal process of sensing, perceiving and experiencing cannot thereby be 'instrumental' for neither creating, nor inferring any 'being in existence'. The fact of this enigmatic yet fundamental 'selflessness' is far the most essential core of the unique Buddha-Dhamma... Outmost important to grasp, yet subtle, counterintuitive and thereby difficult & somewhat 'nasty' to comprehend. Please keep on trying, since this central Anatta doctrine is the opener, releaser & freer of any mind. No-one is 'inside' the conditions that arise, cease & pass by! Being hopelessly in love with an imagined idea of 'I=EGO' & 'World=Real' is both fatal, tragic and sardonically comic... Hehehe ;-) Source: The Udana ? Inspirations by the Buddha: I - 10 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=404214 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/index.html <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * <...> #109612 From: Vince Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Time in the Visuddhimagga cerovzt@... Dear Ken O (I leave the flyfruit experience for the end) you wrote: > KO: I felt it is impt that I must emphasis conventional does not mean self or > delusion. Concept does not mean it is delusion. Without conventional > concepts, no way one could learn dhamma. Buddha use concept without any > delusion. Conventional does not mean self. so the succession of cittas is > not a delusion or a self. succession of cittas will be delusion except if one knows that this is not a description of nibbana. Concepts are delusion depending if they impedes Nibbana. Looking to the finger or looking to the moon. If one don't accept an end for that mechanism of succession of cittas then one is not pointing to Nibbana: "Now from the remainderless fading and cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. FROM THE CESSATION OF FABRICATIONS COMES THE CESSATION OF CONSCIOUSNESS. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-and-form. From the cessation of name-and-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. FROM THE CESSATION OF CLINGING/SUSTENANCE COMES THE CESSATION OF BECOMING. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then old age and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, and despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress and suffering. "This is the noble method that is rightly seen and rightly ferreted out by discernment." ? AN 10.92 So the succesion of cittas only can belongs to a self position in different degrees. One can read what M.Sayadaw says: "Now the question arises whether in Nibbana there are still extant cittas or consciousness that arise without depending on ruppa or matter as, for example, arupavacara consciousness.[...] * In Nibbana there are no such things as nama or citta or cetasika which can be met with in Sense-Sphere of Form-Sphere. * Nibbana is cessation of all khandhas. In such a cessation there is neither appearance nor disappearance." http://www.mahasi.org.mm/discourse/E15/E15ch04.htm Also Nyaponika Thera in "Buddhist explorations of consciousness and time" (maybe the only author I have found touching the matter of Time in a concrete way) he says a similar thing: " [...]Here the tension between the subject and object is naturally so exceedingly low that all that we call consciousness and time is on the point of vanishing completely. Consciousness, in fact, means to be aware of an object, and ?time experience? means being aware of the relative movements of the subjective and objective aspect of a perceptual process." In fact Abhidhamma seem to be logically subjected to some contradictions in the explanation when the Time topic is touched: Here another one: "- Is Time something produced? Those who held that erroneous view obviously did not consider that Time is a mere concept. Only the five Khandhas, i.e. the corporeal and mental phenomena, occurring in the three periods of time, can be said to be "produced". ** from the Katha-vatthu, 146.Chapter XV. Guide through the Abhidhamma-Pitaka, Nyanatiloka. pp.79 it says: "Time is a mere concept" --> "phenomena occurring in the three periods of time"(!!) How to digest that?. It would not be better to say "Only the five Khandhas, i.e. the corporeal and mental phenomena can be said to be "produced"? Why that juggling including the three times?. Maybe the reason is in what Nyaponika says here: "Within the Buddhist fold the philosophical trend to obliterate the distinction between the three periods of time came very much to the fore in the early Hinayanist school of the Sarvastivadins (and Vaibh?sika), who maintained that dharmas (conceived as the ultimate unchangeable elements of existence) persist through all three periods of time which have only conventional validity and that things appearing in these three time-periods have only phenomenal existence. These ideas obviously contradict two basic conceptions of Buddhist doctrine; namely, impermanence and insubstantiality. In view of such consequences it is therefore imperative not to forget the relative differentiation of time manifested in the fact of change or impermanence" so that effort to keep impermanence can be a cause for that overweight of the Time role in the explanation. Nibbana is devoid of Time, of perceptions and of cittas succesion. This becomes a need in order to define Nibbana in terms of "cease" or "deathless". On the contrary we talk about another thing. > KO: Fruitfly definitely knows time because during night time, it rest. It has > have some knowledge of day and night which is time. and time got nothing to do > with delusion How can be that?. A flyfruit lives under a blind impulse of vital force. All what happens inside her is out of any conceptual representation. She knows only the motion of some object, not the Time. Difference becomes a matter of complexity. According the sophistication of beings there is an higher elaboration of a representation of the world. Notion of time arises in us as an elaborated abstraction of the relations among dhammas and with the knower. It's difficult to see where the resting can imply a knowledge of time or also a perception of day and night. We read from the Attasalini: "By Time the Sage described the Mind And by the Mind he described the Time; In order, that by such a definition, The dhammas there in classes may be show" I think this is not only in application for the flyfruit and her ignorance about Time but also this a presentation of Abhidhamma: Abhidhamma and Time comes hand by hand to explain the process of detachment. I understand that one must be aware of that marriage. Because the Time cannot belong to Nibbana. The explanations of succession of cittas are not a portrait of Nibbana but a teaching on detachment, On the contrary it can be a delusion about the final nature of reality. I think so! best, Vince. #109613 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:17 am Subject: Re: notes from Bangkok with A.Sujin 3a rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > (Btw, Kevin, a discussion the other day about whether arahats and pacceka buddhas can kill themselves - impossible. Rob K had the example he'd seen in a commentary about pacceka buddhas killing themselves before the birth of the bodhisatta, but KS said this was all impossible and they wouldn't know when the bodhisatta would be born. Is it a Mahayana commentary, we wondered?) > ? > +++++++++++ Dear Sarah I found the reference: The Pacceka-Buddha, by Ria Kloppenborg (WHEEL 305/307). She refers to the sutta nipata Commentary and I think because it was published by the BPS in Sri Lanka I trusted her translation. However, as U Chit Tin notes: ""Ria Kloppenborg's statement (op. cit., p. 56) that Matanga went to Mount Mahapapata "the mountain from which //paccekabuddhas// can enter final nibbana by throwing themselves down from the rock" seems inaccurate. It is the bones of the last Pacceka Buddha to enter final Nibbana that are thrown down from the rock. According to Sn-a 128f., it is at this moment that he repeated his solemn utterance.""end quote Here is more: """When he heard the voices of the Devas, Pacceka Buddha Matanga reflected, "A Bodhisatta has been born. He will be the future Buddha. //Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu//." He saw that the worlds of the Devas, Brahmas, and humans were filled with joy. Then he used his supernormal mental powers (abhinna) to see when his own life would come to an end. He found that he would attain Parinibbana that same day. So he went through the air to the mountain named Mahapapata, a mountain in the Himalayas where all Pacceka Buddhas attain Parinibbana. The Burmese commentator describes the scene as follows: Pacceka Buddha Matanga realized that he was the last of the Pacceka Buddhas before the Sammasambuddha Gotama appeared in the world. He saw that he would no longer be in the world when the future Buddha came, so he directed his thoughts towards the destruction of his own life. Then he left the cave where he had resided for many years with the support of the residents of Rajagaha. He had no attachment to his supporters or to his cave. Going through the air, he passed over Rajagaha, which is surrounded by five mountains; he went over all of Magadha, headed for the north into the Himalayas. He went past seven mountain ranges to the Gandhamadana mountain range where the Nandamulaka (or Nandamu) mountain slope is found. On that slope there are three caves: the golden cave (Suvanna-guha), the ruby (or jewel) cave (Mani-guha), and the silver cave (Rajata-guha). Pacceka Buddha Matanga chose the ruby cave in the middle where the Manjusaka Deva tree grows at the entrance. There, he descended from the air, keeping in mind, "All conditioned states are transient, impermanent, //anicca, anicca, anicca// ...," as he saw the withered flowers of the Manjusaka tree that had fallen all around it like a huge carpet. Pacceka Buddha Matanga remembered that this was the place where in the past all the Pacceka Buddhas living in the world assembled on full- moon days and new-moon days. At such times, they enjoyed the attainment of the Fruition State (phala-sammapatti) or of cessation (nirodha-sammapatti) together. When a new Pacceka Buddha came, he would take the last of the prepared seats because the Pacceka Buddhas were seated according to seniority. When the predetermined period of going into states was up, the eldest of the Pacceka Buddhas would ask the newly arrived Pacceka Buddha to explain how he attained solitary knowledge (pacceka-nana) and he would explain how he did so and would repeat the solemn utterance (udana) he made on attaining full awakening. When Pacceka Buddha Matanga appeared in the world, there were no other Pacceka Buddhas, but he kept the tradition by coming to this place and speaking his verse alone. This was the second time that he spoke that verse. When he came back after learning about the birth of the future Teaching Buddha, he had come for the last time. It was time for him to follow in the footsteps of the previous Pacceka Buddhas. Although the actual footsteps had disappeared due to the wind, rain, and snow, they were still clear to him in his mind, and he followed the footsteps and approached a large, flat rock. He took the string of bones mixed with fragments of worn pieces of yellow robe of the Pacceka Buddha who had entered complete extinction before him and threw them into the nearby precipice.[6] Then he lay down on the flat rock. As a Pacceka Buddha, Matanga had eliminated all craving. He had no craving for continued existence (bhava). He had no craving for anything. Whatever he did was in accordance with what should be done. There was no reaction in him as he always possessed functional consciousness (kiriya- citta), states of consciousness that do not give future results. There would be no more birth for him. When the light of a candle is extinguished, it disappears with no trace. We cannot say it has gone here or there. The same is true when the Pacceka Buddhas pass away into the sphere of Nibbana without a residue of substratum. They pass away after entering the concentration of the fire element (tejo-dhatu-samadhi). In this way, their bodies are consumed by fire. U Chit Tin"" End quote robert #109614 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Suicide DN16 Ud8.9 rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin F wrote: > > Dear Alex, all, > > Friends, here is the whole sutta: > > Dabba Sutta > > > "I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in >> The body disintegrated, > perception ceased, > pain & rapture were entirely consumed, > fabrications were stilled: > consciousness has come to its end." > > www.accesstoinsight.org > > Kevin: I wonder how the Commentary tries to get around that one. > > Kevin > > > ___________ >Dear Kevin what would the Commentary need to get around? Robert #109615 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:33 am Subject: Re: Part 2 on Intentional development, simplified rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > Listening itself is a deliberate activity. There needs to be attention to the certain sound (ex: Dhamma talk) as opposed to something else, like sound of a bird outside of the monastery. > > One may listen to Dhamma or not-dhamma. Choice is required and so is attention toward what was chosen to be listened to. One may sit in a Dhamma hall and instead of listening to Dhamma lesson think about "what will I have for dinner?". So the choice (of listening) and effort to actually do what was chosen is required. > > > Why isn't choosing to listen to Dhamma as opposed to not-Dhamma, not be a deliberate activity? > > > +++++++++ Dear Alex There is no possibility of anyone deciding to listen to a Dhamma talk simply because there is no self. One could be in a temple where pure Dhamma is being taught and tell oneself "I will listen to every bit" And yet miss some parts. Or think "I will understand correctly" and yet misunderstand. Or one might not want to listen and still collect some understanding. Remember when you first joined dsg and seemed to be on a mission to prove how wrong we all were, yet recently you found a few good points in Ninas books- despite your best intentions. I tell the story of Jon who when we were on a Dhamma trip 19years back said he felt tired and didn't feel like speaking/listening to Dhamma just then. I kept asking khun sujin questions though and a few minutes later Jon was back into the discussion- despite his efforst to ignore it.. There are just elements working there way, performing there functions without any assitance needed. robert #109616 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:40 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Studnets of Ajahn Sujin think there is a subtle self rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin F wrote: > >> Keivn: All the people that think you can deliberately stop unwholesome > cetasikas from arising by *not* engaging in meditation! > > Thanks, > > Kevin > Dear Kevin perhaps if you quoted from one of Nina or Sujin's books where they claim this (above)we could have a discussion. robert #109617 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:15 am Subject: Han is fine... sarahprocter... Dear Friends, I just heard from Han. He's back at home, very weak with stiches and needs help to move around, but says he will be OK. He asked me to keep details off-list as he won't be opening his mail, so it maybe better to wait until he writes to the list before addressing him. I'm just mentioning it now briefly, in spite of his request, because I'm sure others of you will have been concerned about him too. I'm very, very relieved! Metta Sarah ====== #109618 From: Kevin F Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Suicide DN16 Ud8.9 farrellkevin80 Hi Robert, Rob: what would the Commentary need to get around? Kevin: I wonder if it states that he attained Arahatta at the time of death, like the Commentary about Venerable Channa does. Kevin ___________ #109619 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:11 am Subject: Re: Suicide DN16 Ud8.9 rjkjp1 Dear Kevin Dabba was an arahat from age 7. robertk #109620 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Han is fine... nilovg Dear Sarah, Yes, I thought that he would be all right, thank you for telling. BTW, there was some discussion about the Pali for peace and for cool. I do not know the context of your discussion, but I found: peace or calm: santi, and cool: siita. You could check with Khun Khampan, and give him my best regards. Nina. Op 30-aug-2010, om 8:15 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > I just heard from Han. He's back at home, very weak with stiches > and needs help to move around, but says he will be OK. #109621 From: "lawstu_uk" Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:01 am Subject: Re: Han is fine... lawstu_uk Thanks for the update. It brings smile to me :-) Andrew #109622 From: Sukinderpal Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nature of the Present Moment - for Ken O sukinderpal Hi Ken O, ====== > > >S: Then there should be no reason to talk about anything since > >expressing oneself is always based on memory of past experiences. > >But of course thinking and expressing oneself does necessarily happen. > >So what is the point of contention here? > > > > KO: because you dont understand the meaning of present moment, your > understanding of present moment is based on past moments. At that > moment of > expressing oneself of past experiences, is that a present moment or not. > Suk: OK, see what you don't agree with in the following: The present moment is known by what appears to the consciousness. If the object now is say, visible object or unpleasant feeling, these are realities with characteristics. If on the other hand, it is a concept of computer screen or written words, these are not real and do not have any characteristics. In the case of the latter, if one were to make a statement about the present moment, one would have to say that it is in fact "thinking" rather than say, 'computer screen' etc. Although in this case it would be thinking about thinking, since the one which had computer screen as object had already fallen away. Similarly with say, visible object. When one states anything about the experience of visible object, this would be an instances of the thinking following it. Now, if instead of thinking, satipatthana arose in either of the above cases, the object here would be either nama or rupa such as thinking or visible object. Satipatthana at the eye door would have the same rupa as object since rupa lasts longer than citta. But even here, since in fact this would be a nimita, no one can say, which one exactly. In the case of a thinking on the other hand, it is clear that the thinking as object of satipatthana is the one that in the previous moment had computer screen as object and therefore must have fallen away already by then. But never mind the above. After all one could read you as encouraging the understanding of there being only the present moment, and this is a good reminder for any real study to occur. You insist that no matter what the reality is, be this a characteristic of a reality known with satipatthana, or thinking about the present moment, or just vipaka, or pure ignorance where nothing is being known about the present moment, whatever this may be, *that is the present moment*. I'd agree with this were it not that you object to my stating that this present moment is conditioned already. Yours could be said to be more or less a definition of 'present moment'. Mine on the other hand is stating that which is understood by panna when it does arise, which is that the reality is conditioned and fallen away already. After all, the three characteristic would at the time, make itself known to some degree wouldn't it? Which means that if one could say about a present reality that it is anatta one would also state that it is anicca. Indeed this is the difference between the understanding as taught by the Buddha and all those other religions and philosophical teachings, which although they too talk about the need to understand the present moment, theirs' is not about conditioned realities and the three general characteristics. ======== > > >You say that if I believed that the present moment has already arisen > >and fallen away, then I have no basis to make any statement about it. > >The only valid base for saying anything about reality is if I believed > >that it has not yet fallen away at the time that I perceive it. > > > >As I tried to show you in the previous post, anger as the object of > >consciousness is the one from a previous citta in which there was the > >experience of a particular unpleasant object, which means that by then > >the anger must have fallen away. In other words, the anger was present, > >but fallen away already at the time that it became known as "anger". > >More importantly however, when I think and state about "now", wouldn't > >this be many mind moments away from that which I refer to? > > KO: If anger has fallen away, how could one should have express anger > words at > others. > Suk: OK, let us talk about now. There is thinking with intention to type and typing is happening. This couldn't happen without many dhammas co-arising and conditioning one another. But if any of these were to become the object of understanding now, would not this be that it has arisen and already fallen away by conditions? Or would you say of hardness for example, that this is still present? ========== > > So is anger past or not at the moment of expressing of anger. > Suk: Many different kinds of cittas alternating and some intimation rupas being conditioned. Indeed without "seeing" what we then take for the other person, and thinking with "attachment", over which words to use , would the overall situation of "expressing anger" ever come to be? So what is really "present" here!? Is it something being maintained by force of 'thinking' rooted in attachment and conditioned by wrong view? ========= > > Also if it is already past, why should anger be the only condition > for the present, there could be wise attention and then there is no > anger. > Suk: This I think reflects just this problem of our difference in understanding and why you continue resisting the idea. If you'd understand that this present reality, whatever this is, has been conditioned and fallen away already, you'd see that all this while what I've been saying with reference to past accumulations, is based on the understanding of what has arisen now in the present moment and does not at all represent a deterministic view of things. This means that were panna or any other reality to arise instead of the anger, the conclusion would be the same that this arose because of accumulations in the past. ======== > > >S: No, it does not mean this. > >What is the use of talking about these things? > >It is because this is the way things are, but because of accumulated > >ignorance we don't know this. The development of understanding must > >start slowly beginning with pariyatti where no direct understanding of > >the characteristic of a reality is involved. Indeed when it is > >patipatti, even here the experience is only of the nimita, which means > >many similar realities all fallen away. This is however the only way > >that it can ever be. > > > KO: We dont know this does not give us excuses not to understand and > investigate further on our accumulations just because it is a nimita. > At the > moment of experience even it is nimita, it is still a present moment, > it does > not change the fact it is dhamma that arise with nimita. If we based our > understanding of dhamma because it is just nimita, how could we further > develop. Since reading suttas are also full of nimitas, does that > mean it > cannot help in the development of panna. > Suk: I said at the end: "This is however the only way that it can ever be." The sentiment expressed is not as you inferred. In saying that panna has nimita as object and that this is the only way that it is ever developed, this is saying that panna understands all that is needed about paramattha dhammas from the experience. And I think you must differentiate between "nimita of a reality" from that which I think you meant in saying, "reading suttas are also full of nimitas"..... ============== > > >I realize that you are trying in your own way, to stress on the > >experience of the present moment which is defined by a characteristic of > >a nama or rupa being known. This is why you insist that they are > >'present' and therefore we should not think that it has fallen away > >already. I do not have any problem stating about the present moment that > >it has already fallen away for the reasons stated, and I don't see why > >you should object to this. Is it because it comes across to you as > >self-contradictory? > > KO: At any moment of present moment, there must be dhamma. Even if > one said > that hearing a sound is already past since rupas have fallen away, at > that > moment even it is a nimitta of rupas, does not mean it is not the > present of > what you experience even it is nimita. At that moment, that is the > most impt > for satipatthana and not thinking it has already past. > Suk: I still suspect that this must be due to miscommunication. Having read what I have written so far, what do you think? ============ > > It you think it has > already past, then I wonder you ever think, what you think it has > already past > is really your present moment. > Suk: In that case, 'thinking' is the present reality. However when I know this, it would be seen to have been conditioned and fallen away already. ;-) ============ > Also nimitas can condition kusala and akusala, are you going to think > whether it > is nimita or direct understanding or you should be more concern of what is > dhamma that arise where the nimita is the object . > Suk: This is where I think you start to go wrong. Although you keep stressing the need to not think that the present moment has fallen away, you incline to overlook the need to understand any arisen rupa / nimita and prefer to know instead, only the javana cittas and accompanying roots following that experience. This comes across to me as 'selecting' and 'controlling'. In other words, I think that you are going away from the correct Path if you think that it is not important to understand vipaka cittas and rupas and are aiming at understanding kusala and akusala dhammas only. And I don't think that you truly appreciate the real danger of ignorance and correspondingly the true value of wisdom. ============ > > >S: So you are saying that arisen by cause does not mean no-control? Are > >you suggesting that dhammas do the control and since in reality there > >are only dhammas, we should not speak of no-control in such a situation? > > KO: Dhammas are anatta and there are dhammas that directs, or wish > to do. If > there are such dhammas to perform such functions, can one claim there > is no > control. If there is no control, why bother to go to listen to dhammas. > Suk: No control to go or not to go, only conditioned dhammas arsing and falling away performing their specific functions. This very understanding is itself a condition for further interest in the Dhamma and all that is involved in leading to more listening and discussing. Chanda must surely be an important condition. However what most definitely is not required are such ideas as, "I shall go to the foundation so that panna can arise and be developed". In other words, what is wrong are the intentions to "do" conditioned by wrong understanding of the way things are and what the Path is. ========== > Dhamma by nature cannot be control as it will arise and falls away, > does not > mean dhamma cannot be directed or intent. So the understanding of > anatta or no > control is wrongly intepreted. As long as there is kamma for rebirth > to the > next plane, there would be a rebirth, that is the meaning of anatta, > the nature > of dhamma. it does not we cannot change kamma. if there is no > control, then a > killer will also be killers for all eternity since there is no > control. The > killer is condition to think like that and this is because of > accumulations he > always be a killer. > Suk: Some of this may be due to miscommunication, but apparently it seems also that you are driven by an idea of control to interpret the Dhamma accordingly. =========== > > >> KO: Show mean a text reference please because there is no text even > >> in Visdu that claim one can only practise satipatthana only if the > object > >> is nama or rupa. Satipatthana can arise because of understanding > the dhamma that > >> arise with an object. It could be any object. A set of teeth or a > corpse > >> can cause the arisen of enlightement. Does that mean there is no > satipatthana. > >> This assumption that the object of the citta during satipatthana > should > >> only be paramatha dhamma is wrong and inconsistent with the text. > Lets not > >> tell me it is understanding because the text does not support such > a basis. Only > >> when vipassana arise, then it is nama or rupa. > >> > > > >S: Quoting texts is not my forte. I'll need someone else to help me with > >this. What I can say though is that, concepts being a product of > >thinking, any study, observation, analysis or breaking down into > >components is just more thinking with concepts as object. And hence any > >conclusion as to these being impermanent, unsatisfactory and non self is > >just conceptual, which can at best be an instance of kusala thinking but > >unrelated to vipassana development. > > > > KO: Hmm, how do you listen to words then if concepts cannot be used for > development of panna. And I am waiting for the text :-) from anyone > Suk: Hmm, you were talking about concepts as object of satipatthana and now you ask about Dhamma concepts meant for communication. =========== > >But this moment is also past!!! > >;-) > > KO: if this moment is also past, I wonder how you write the words, > basing on > past. I wonder when is your present. > Suk: Dhammas roll on regardless. When I know any of the dhammas involved in writing, this can only be because by then, these dhammas already performed their functions and fell away. ;-) Metta, Sukinder #109623 From: Sukinderpal Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] No conventional actions, they don't matter at all? sukinderpal Hi Alex, I'll have to leave much of the post without any response. ========== > > S: You'd agree that just sitting straight with the back erect means > > nothing. > > Right. Though we can say if one is fully mindful and doesn't do > anything (with greed, anger or delusion) then one would enter Jhana > and even as far as nirodha samapatti. > Suk: Why not focus on the development of sati and panna, whether this is about samatha or vipassana? This way you'd avoid the need to justify some particular outward action where the danger of attachments to rites and rituals is always present. Besides Jhana has its own specific causes all through its very gradual course of development, so its rather misleading to state as you do that the presence of mindfulness and absence of the three unwholesome roots while sitting with an erect back is all one needs to attain Jhana of any level. ========== > > Jhanas are progressive states of non-doing (5 sense activities, greed, > anger and delusion). > Suk: Again I consider this a rather misleading representation of Jhana. I get the impression that this revolves around the idea that sitting still with a back erect and a particular subject of meditation, is a wholesome activity(non-doing) because apparently, one is not involved in any evil actions through body, speech or mind at the time. ========= > > True, that the mental realities involved need to > > repeatedly have the kammatthana subject as object if there is to be > > access concentration and then Jhana, especially in the case of the > > beginner. And that this must require that one not be distracted > > including by what may come from an unstable bodily posture. > > Right. And lets not forget the things about "bodily intimation". > Bodily postures CAN represent certain mental states. When there is > citta with dosa, one can frown or even do things with one's fists... > > When one is greedy, there can be a certain bodily intimation as well. > Suk: Represent or reflect but not condition. You can't sit in a particular posture or make a facial expression in order to arouse a desired state of mind can you? ======== > > >And of course here we are talking about samatha and not vipassana > >where wrong view is the only real hindrance. > > I believe that samatha requires a certain degree of vipassana, an > actually these things come together in various proportions. > Suk: Although a moment of vipassana is samatha I don't think it correct to state that samatha of other levels requires vipassana. ======== > > > > If washing the dishes is not obstacle to panna, then neither does > > > sitting in seclusion. > > > > > > > S: So why sit for the particular purpose? > > It is bodily expression (bodily intimation) of kusala cittas. The body > also needs to rest, but at the same time not to fall asleep as it can > easily happen if one is lying on the floor/bed. > Suk: So why not pay attention to the citta itself. It is this which from moment to moment is either kusala, akusala or neither regardless of which posture and how long this is being maintained. in other words, if a good sitting posture is to be maintained in order that Jhana cittas can arise, it is with wisdom which understands the citta that this ever happens. ========== > > >Would it sound reasonable to you if I suggested a discipline of > >regular 'washing of dishes' as means to develop wisdom? > > As I've said before, what paramis are you accomplishing by washing > dishes that you can't by lets say doing (metta, asubha, anapanasati) etc? > Suk: With a good base of Right Understanding, any kusala can arise at anytime and be developed regardless of activity. The only real hindrance in fact, is in thinking that one must do something special in order that this can happen. ========= > > Can bodily intimation of washing dishes be an expression of MahaKusala > Jhana cittas (for example?) > Suk: Well, there is no reason to think why even the insight knowledges can't arise now, given that the object of such knowledge are nama or rupa. So there is really no corresponding bodily intimation to any of this. With reference to samatha development, as I said before, it is all a matter of understanding citta, so why ever be concerned about posture? ========= > > > S: Avoidance is not the development of good qualities. > > Avoiding harming, stealing, killing is NOT the development of > wholesome qualities?!!! > Suk: You had said: > BTW sitting in seclusion has advantages of restraining one's bodily > and verbal actions until one can resist unwholesome behaviour near > other people. > Suk: There are two things quite different from each other, one is sitting in seclusion and the other is restraint. You were equating the former with the latter, and I was saying that this was not the case. ========= > > > Just because kusala or akusala kammapattha can be described in > > > ultimate terms, it cannot happen without corresponding physical > > > activities. > > > > > > > S: Killing would require some bodily intimation for sure and so > >would lying. But the actor is not actually killing when he shoots > >blanks at the other actor does he? > > The actor doesn't have the same kind of desire to kill and PHYSICAL > KILLING DOESN'T OCCUR. Another reason why we can't totally disregard > the conventional world and what happens in it. > Suk: Lets make this clear. No one is disregarding the conventional world, only that conventional reality is not the object of the development of Right Understanding. ========= > Bodily actions can be originated due to citta. So wholesome cittas do > produce wholesome physical actions and same with akusala cittas for > akusala physical actions. > > So washing dishes is one type of bodily expression, and sitting in > seclusion is another. > Suk: Again, why not focus on the citta then? ========= > > As for right views and causes for them: > > Does one listen & consider Dhamma with 100% right views in order to > have right views, or does one start with less than perfect > understanding (and some misunderstanding) and then increases it to the > level of right views? > Suk: Beginning is beginning, which means that one moment of Right Understanding is followed by infinite number of moments of other kinds of cittas. And yes, some of these would in fact be wrong understanding. ========= > > Right view cannot be cause of right view because this sort of self > causation would be impossible to make arise by any means. I beleive > that even though we start with wrong views, gradually these wrong > views are replaced with right views. Gradually wrong tendencies are > replaces with wholesome ones. This is where intentional development is > a must. > Suk: No, this is Wrong View, one which must surely lead to wrong practice. Any anger arisen accumulates and increases the chance of more anger arising in the future. So too it is with wholesome dhammas, including wisdom. The idea of intentional practice, knowing that this must be akusala but that it will somehow lead to right understanding being developed down the road is quite a perversion. After all, not only one ignores the fact of attachment and wrong view arisen now to increase the chance of the same arising in the future, but one goes on to have quite a distorted sense of cause and effect with regard to the arising of all dhammas. ======== > > It is simply not natural to grab a Dhamma book and read it. Not unless > you were deliberately doing it for a long time. This is an expression > of wholesome state of citta which doesn't arise due to itself. What is > spontaneous now was previously deliberately cultivated. > Suk: The idea of "natural" revolves around the understanding that the present moment no matter what this is, has arisen by conditions and already fallen away, as against that which gives rise to the idea of another time, place, posture and special activity as means to arouse certain desired states. This means that if ignorance or attachment or even wrong view arose now and is known at some level, why would one then go on to think about doing anything special in order to have understanding arise? If wisdom arose at this moment without my having any intention to make it arise, why would I then think to go in the opposite direction? The interest in reading a Dhamma book comes from prior interest, and this could be right or wrong. In either case however, this interest must be there and is the main driving force, else how could one even intent to do so. To think that intention is the main driving force whether or not there is the understanding and interest, for any of this to happen, is yet another example of a perversion of view. Metta, Sukinder #109624 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:32 am Subject: Revising 1: Arising of Mundane Pa??aa abhidhammika Dear John How are you? Jon replied: "I had in mind the mundane panna that accompanies awareness/insight (i.e., mundane path moments)." After that revising, your statement now looks like as follows. "In the context of the development of the Path, however, the term 'practice' as used in the teachings refers to the actual arising of mundane pa??aa rather than to the undertaking of specific intentional activities." jon also wrote: "Hoping this clarifies." Your clarification went only so far as to distinguish between mundane pa??aa and lokuttara pa??aa. Your answer led to a few more questions. 1. Was mundane pa??aa a translation of lokiya pa??aa as the (either/or) opposite of lokuttara pa??aa? If your answer was Yes, then 2. Did mundane pa??aa include Jhaana pa??aa of a putthujjana? (A putthujjana is one who has not yet attained sotaapatti magga pa??aa.) Hope that you are still keen on clarifying the above points as well. Thanking you in advance. Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org Jon wrote: > > "In the context of the development of the Path, however, the term 'practice' as used in the teachings refers to the actual arising of panna rather than to the undertaking of specific intentional activities." > > Can you be more specific about what you meant by 'the actual arising of panna'? > > Did you mean the actual arising of magga pa??aa such as sotaapatti magga pa??aa? > =============== J: I had in mind the mundane panna that accompanies awareness/insight (i.e., mundane path moments). Hoping this clarifies. Jon #109625 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] awareness of 4 elements within one's body jonoabb Hi KenO (109594) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Jon > ... > >Objects can condition sanna that > >> associated this object with pleasure feelings or craving. Ain't that signficant > >> > >> > >> enough. > >> =============== > > > >J: It would help if you could give an example of what you have in mind here. > >Thanks. > > > KO: hmm explain below > > > > >J: Not sure about this. Would you mind giving an example of 'concepts being used > > > >for development'. That may help the discussion. > > > > KO: Jon, if you could, not to listen or read words and understand dhamma, then > I salute you and you should teach me how you do it. Listening to words is a > good example of concept that help in development. this is an example how sanna > association with concepts to help in developing panna. > =============== J: I of course agree that there must be the hearing of words in order for there to be the development of the path. What I'm querying is your characterization of this as 'concepts being used for development', or 'sanna association with concepts to help in developing panna'. Presumably there is some purpose in adopting these descriptions. > =============== > >J: I'm still not with you. Would you mind giving an example of 'dhammas that > >arise with concepts' (as opposed to 'dhammas' only)? Thanks. > > KO: hmm can concepts arise without through thinking which is a dhamma. i > thought I have explained it :-) > =============== J: OK, so you're saying that thinking (a dhamma) with concept as object is an example of 'a dhamma that arises with a concept'. I of course agree that the object of thinking is a concept. But again, in what sense is the dhamma of thinking to be understood as 'a dhamma that arises with a concept'. What is this meant to convey? Interested to hear your further comments. Jon #109626 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:58 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Part 2 on Intentional development, simplified jonoabb Hi KenO (109595) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Jon > ... > KO: so you think other teachers cannot teach proper dhamma :-) > =============== J: No, that wasn't my meaning at all. The point is simply that there is no guarantee as to the outcome of a given intentional activity being performed. There are any number of unforeseen factors that may intervene. So it's not a matter of doing a specific activity (going to Bangkok, reading a Dhamma book, whatever), it's a matter of the actual factor (hearing the teachings appropriately explained) being fulfilled. > =============== So now we have > multiple conditions, giving more excuses The pot calling the kettle black on > deliberate activity. Deliberate activity is not particular intentional > activity, :-) I wonder the way we twist our words and English vocabulary. > =============== J: Sorry, you've lost me here. I believe we are using intentional/deliberate activity in the same way. > =============== > Past kamma does not determine present actions, it could determine favourable > conditions though. > =============== J: Yes, without the appropriate past kamma there will not be the fulfillment of the individual factors. Past kamma is one of those possible 'unforseen factors that may intervene'. Jon #109627 From: "Graham" Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:38 pm Subject: Temples in Thailand grahamarussell Hi folks, It looks like we will be moving to Thailand in November. My wife has land in Chachoengsao which is near Chonburi. Does anyone know if there is a good temple near there please? With metta, Graham #109628 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:46 pm Subject: Re: Revising 1: Arising of Mundane Pa??aa jonoabb Hi Suan (109624) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > Dear John > > How are you? > > Jon replied: > > "I had in mind the mundane panna that accompanies awareness/insight (i.e., mundane path moments)." > > After that revising, your statement now looks like as follows. > > "In the context of the development of the Path, however, the term 'practice' as used in the teachings refers to the actual arising of mundane pa??aa rather than to the undertaking of specific intentional activities." > ... > Your answer led to a few more questions. > > 1. Was mundane pa??aa a translation of lokiya pa??aa as the (either/or) opposite of lokuttara pa??aa? > =============== J: I was not translating any particular passage, but yes, by mundane panna I mean lokiya panna. > =============== > > If your answer was Yes, then > > 2. Did mundane pa??aa include Jhaana pa??aa of a putthujjana? > =============== J: The context of my original comment (to Alex) was satipatthana and insight (vipassana bhavana), rather than samatha bhavana. Hoping this clarifies. Jon #109629 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Temples in Thailand sarahprocter... Hi Graham (& Ann), Welcome to DSG! --- On Mon, 30/8/10, Graham wrote: >It looks like we will be moving to Thailand in November. >My wife has land in Chachoengsao which is near Chonburi. Does anyone know if there is a good temple near there please? .... S: As it happens, I recognise the name because one of our members and good friends, Ann, often mentions Chachoengsao where she worked as a volunteer many, many years ago. We also met her friend, who also has a keen interest in the Dhamma, and who runs a language college there. I know they'd be glad to help and provide information. Where do you live now, Graham? Have you been studying the Dhamma/attending a temple? I think it's quite an easy trip into Bangkok from Chachoengsao, so perhaps you might like to join us at a discussion here sometime. Metta Sarah p.s Ann, thinking of you as we set off for KK tomorrow. We just spoke to Tadao on the phone - he's visiting Bkk, but we won't have a chance to meet this time. ======= #109630 From: "bhikkhu3" Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:05 pm Subject: Taming the Monkey-Robot! bhikkhu5 Friends: Non-Control makes U into a Monkey-Robot! Buddha once asked: How, Bhikkhus and friends, is there non-control? Seeing a form with the eye, one becomes attracted by the pleasing form, while repelled by the displeasing form. Having heard a sound with the ear, one becomes attracted by the charming sound, while repulsed by a horrid sound. Having sniffed a smell with the nose, one becomes attracted by the lovely smell, while repelled by a detestable smell. Having tasted a flavour with the tongue, one becomes attracted by the liked taste, while repelled by a disliked taste. Feeling a touch with the body, one becomes attracted by the pleasant touch, while repelled by any unpleasant touch. When one experiences a mental phenomenon with the mind, one becomes attracted by the agreeable mental phenomenon, while repelled by any disagreeable mental phenomenon. In this uncontrolled way does such mind live without having established Awareness of the body, & confined by a limited mind! Therefore does such one neither understand, nor experience that release of mind, that mental liberation through understanding, wherein those evil detrimental states cease without remaining trace. In exactly this way is there is non-control! Comments: The limited & finite mind is a mind not made infinite by the praxis of the 4 sublime or 'divine abodes' (brahma-vihara), also called the four infinite mental states (appama??a), which are: 1: Universal Friendliness (Metta), 2: Universal Pity (Karuna), 3: Universal Sympathy (Mudita), and 4: Universal Equanimity (Upekkha). <..> Please UPDATE your mental SOFTWARE before social CRASH! Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [189-] 35: 6 Senses. Salayatana. States that entail Suffering. Dukkha-Dhamma. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * #109631 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:26 pm Subject: Time. nilovg Dear Vince, Sorry I did not answer you before, but I was away for one week. ------- V: so if there is only rupa there is not rupa following another rupa. Therefore, How can be possible the arising and falling of succesive cittas? Because if we accept that there is just nama and just rupa, then also we should accept that there is just citta, not successive cittas arising and falling. ------- N: There are cittas arising and falling, but there can be awareness of one citta at a time, or one ruupa at a time. ----- V: (snipped)... In this plurality, we say: "this Citta falls... next citta arises.." despite there is just citta, not different cittas. Is this not contradictory? If there are just nama, rupa and citta, then the succession of dhammas is delusion. Also the Time would exist as a delusion, just a distorted representation of a natural flux of activity which exists by itself and devoid of time. This a temporal flux become a temporary succession of dhammas "to us" in dependence of the notion of a self. ----------- N: It is only at the third stage of tender insight that pa~n~naa begins to see the swift succession of cittas. So, we should first talk about the first stage: seeing naama as naama and ruupa as ruupa. The knowledge of the characteristic of each one when it appears has to be keen and sharp. It is the present reality that has to be known, nothing else. It is correct that you repeat: there is just ruupa, just naama. I read in a commentary about awareness: when a certain ruupa appears there is only that ruupa, nothing else. Meant is: when it appears to mindfulness and understanding. Meanwhile: why think and think about time? This will not help. Why wonder how the succession of cittas can be known? Pa~n~naa is pa~n~naa and it will surely know. But first things come first. In the suttas it is said that pa~n~naa can shoot from far and very precisely. In the beginning you wrote to me that you were looking for the practice, explanations about the practice and could not find it elsewhere except in Kh Sujin's words. That was the reason why you visited her. Yes. She is very direct, always pointing out: what about the present moment. She said about the practice: no interest in anything else but the present moment. When you are thinking of time, thinking is the present moment. It seems to last, but in fact there are many cittas thinking, arising in succession. But we should not try to know what is still beyond our understanding. ------ V: And there are other questions from here: Is not right to say the cittas speed would vanish when there is a Cease?. And if the cease is nibbana, Is not right to say that *any speed* would be a delusion of successive cittas because there is just citta?. ----- N: But you cannot experience cessation and nibbaana yet. Thinking about this distracts from the present moment. Nobody can stop the speed of cittas, they go on continuously. Except in a very special attainment for those who are very skilled in samatha and vipassanaa and have already reached the stage of anaagaami or arahat. But this is such a special case, we need not occupy ourselves with that. -------- Nina. #109632 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:50 pm Subject: What I heard. nilovg Dear friends, From an India recording. If one thinks of the future one worries, thinking of concepts. If there can be awareness of the present reality one is saved from attachment and aversion towards conceepts. Even now visible object is appearing and when someone is interested in concepts he does not develop understanding of it. Thinking of concepts follows upon seeing, hearing and the other sense-cognitions. People wonder how one can know when there is sati and when there is no sati. One cannot be sure about the characteristic of sati after just a few moments of it. It takes one?s whole life (or more). Even now visible object is appearing but it does not appear ?as a reality?. There is no one in it, no thing in it. It seems that we ?see? things while we are dreaming. This happens because of the memory of what was seen before. The same happens at this moment. We see people and things because of sa~n~naa, memory of former experiences. Can there be thinking of people and things if there is no seeing? It takes a long time to understand this and it is like holding the knife?s handle. We hold it each day, but the wearing away takes a long time. When there is an idea of someone or something we seem to see, then the characteristic of visible object which arises and falls away instantly is not known. It has gone completely, but the sign of it, the nimitta appears as people and things. We are used to taking visible object as people and things by paying attention to the sign which is not visible object that arises and falls away. Visible object is appearing. Is it someone or something? That is the nimitta or sign. The reality has gone, each moment. There are many kinds of nimitta, nimitta of naama and ruupa, nimitta of concepts. ******** Nina. #109633 From: Ken O Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] awareness of 4 elements within one's body ashkenn2k Dear Jon >J: I of course agree that there must be the hearing of words in order for there >to be the development of the path. > >What I'm querying is your characterization of this as 'concepts being used for >development', or 'sanna association with concepts to help in developing panna'. > > >Presumably there is some purpose in adopting these descriptions. KO:?? Honestly, if you could separate concepts out of association with sanna, I am most happy to learn from you.? Maybe you could tell me how could you develop dhamma without words which are?concepts that arise with dhammas and these are the words that condition the development of panna. > >J: OK, so you're saying that thinking (a dhamma) with concept as object is an >example of 'a dhamma that arises with a concept'. > >I of course agree that the object of thinking is a concept. But again, in what >sense is the dhamma of thinking to be understood as 'a dhamma that arises with a > >concept'. What is this meant to convey? ? KO:??concepts cannot arise without dhammas?:-).? Ken O #109634 From: Ken O Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Part 2 on Intentional development, simplified ashkenn2k Dear Jon Remember what you said earlier J: Of course, going to Bangkok is a deliberate activity. But I haven't said that going to Bangkok is one of the factors. The factor in question is hearing the teachings properly explained. Whether or not this happens depends on multiple conditions, most notably past kamma. It cannot be made to happen by undertaking a particular intentional activity ('going to Bangkok'). >> =============== > >J: Sorry, you've lost me here. I believe we are using intentional/deliberate >activity in the same way. > KO:?? It cannot be made by undertaking a particular intentional activity then if one does not go Bangkok intentionallly, how does this going to happen in the first place :-))). >> =============== > >J: Yes, without the appropriate past kamma there will not be the fulfillment of >the individual factors. Past kamma is one of those possible 'unforseen factors >that may intervene'. > KO:? So thats mean we leave all to past kamma and then hope for the best?:-) Ken O #109635 From: Ken O Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nature of the Present Moment - for Ken O ashkenn2k Dear Sukin > >Suk: OK, see what you don't agree with in the following: > >The present moment is known by what appears to the consciousness. If the >object now is say, visible object or unpleasant feeling, these are >realities with characteristics. If on the other hand, it is a concept of >computer screen or written words, these are not real and do not have any >characteristics. KO:? As I said many times, it is not the concepts that matter, it is the dhamma that arise with concepts that matter.? Just like words that cause unplesant feelings to arise.?Concepts can never arise without dhamma.??? Your concern about concepts should not be just because it has no characteristics one does not bother about it.? it should be the dhamma that arise with concepts that one should be concern with.? so unplesant feeling with words, it is the unplesant feeling that we should understand and not the concepts.? > >In the case of the latter, if one were to make a statement about the >present moment, one would have to say that it is in fact "thinking" >rather than say, 'computer screen' etc. Although in this case it would >be thinking about thinking, since the one which had computer screen as >object had already fallen away > KO:? if one could be minful it is just thinking, that is great, if not just understand whatever dhamma that arise with the concepts like unpleasant feelings.? It is not confined to just thinking, because thinking is just another dhamma. >Similarly with say, visible object. When one states anything about the >experience of visible object, this would be an instances of the thinking >following it. > >Now, if instead of thinking, satipatthana arose in either of the above >cases, the object here would be either nama or rupa such as thinking or >visible object. Satipatthana at the eye door would have the same rupa as >object since rupa lasts longer than citta. But even here, since in fact >this would be a nimita, no one can say, which one exactly. In the case >of a thinking on the other hand, it is clear that the thinking as object >of satipatthana is the one that in the previous moment had computer >screen as object and therefore must have fallen away already by then. > KO:? as long as one understand the characteristics of dhamma that arise with any objects even it is a concept, that is satipatthana.????? It is the dhamma that arise with the objects that is what we are studying.? Just like clinging can be of any object, it is the clinging we are understanding and not the objects.? >I'd agree with this were it not that you object to my stating that this >present moment is conditioned already. Yours could be said to be more or >less a definition of 'present moment'. Mine on the other hand is stating >that which is understood by panna when it does arise, which is that the >reality is conditioned and fallen away already. After all, the three >characteristic would at the time, make itself known to some degree >wouldn't it? Which means that if one could say about a present reality >that it is anatta one would also state that it is anicca. Indeed this is >the difference between the understanding as taught by the Buddha and all >those other religions and philosophical teachings, which although they >too talk about the need to understand the present moment, theirs' is not >about conditioned realities and the three general characteristics. > KO:??Definitely anatta is only taught by Buddha.? The understanding of anatta is interpreted differently by different school of thoughts.? Anatta means not self, means there is no exercise of?power or control?by a self and not no exercise power by a dhamma.?? volition wills, chanda purpose, vittaka thinks, panna understands, clinging craves?etc these are the dhamma that influence and overpower the dhamma, and they cause it to go different directions.??And these dhamma?however cannot change the nature of dhamma which has to fall,?present and arise.? these dhamma cannot change the nature of other dhammas that arise.? > >Suk: OK, let us talk about now. There is thinking with intention to type >and typing is happening. This couldn't happen without many dhammas >co-arising and conditioning one another. But if any of these were to >become the object of understanding now, would not this be that it has >arisen and already fallen away by conditions? Or would you say of >hardness for example, that this is still present? > KO:? the last citta that cause the initmation of the hand to type ? is the last citta that is present.? We dont know it because our mindfulness is not strong at the present moment.? the present moment is the moment where we type every letter using our fingers.? Our fingers can never type a past moment, at the moment of the movement of finger that is the present moment.? >> > >Suk: Many different kinds of cittas alternating and some intimation >rupas being conditioned. Indeed without "seeing" what we then take for >the other person, and thinking with "attachment", over which words to >use , would the overall situation of "expressing anger" ever come to be? >So what is really "present" here!? Is it something being maintained by >force of 'thinking' rooted in attachment and conditioned by wrong view? > KO: If there is no anger cetasikas that arise, where is there anger?? You mean expressing anger is a past citta when one is angry. >> > >Suk: This I think reflects just this problem of our difference in >understanding and why you continue resisting the idea. If you'd >understand that this present reality, whatever this is, has been >conditioned and fallen away already, you'd see that all this while what >I've been saying with reference to past accumulations, is based on the >understanding of what has arisen now in the present moment and does not >at all represent a deterministic view of things. This means that were >panna or any other reality to arise instead of the anger, the conclusion >would be the same that this arose because of accumulations in the past. > KO:? I dont know who is resisting.? I understand what you are saying, do you understand what I am saying.? You base your present moment on past accumulations :-), then where is there salvation, a killer will be a killer for eternity :-) > >Suk: No control to go or not to go, only conditioned dhammas arsing and >falling away performing their specific functions. This very >understanding is itself a condition for further interest in the Dhamma >and all that is involved in leading to more listening and discussing. >Chanda must surely be an important condition. However what most >definitely is not required are such ideas as, "I shall go to the >foundation so that panna can arise and be developed". In other words, >what is wrong are the intentions to "do" conditioned by wrong >understanding of the way things are and what the Path is. > KO:? So does cetana perform the will function, does chanda perform the purpose function :-).? So there a self in these cetasikas or I only arise with ditthi.? so must all?cetana and chanda have self :-) >Suk: Hmm, you were talking about concepts as object of satipatthana and >now you ask about Dhamma concepts meant for communication. > KO:? same as above explanation > >Suk: Dhammas roll on regardless. When I know any of the dhammas involved >in writing, this can only be because by then, these dhammas already >performed their functions and fell away. ;-) > KO:? so where is your present, always fallen away.? :-) Ken O #109636 From: Ken O Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Suicide DN16 Ud8.9 ashkenn2k Dear Kevin >Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he >was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Now is the time for my total >Unbinding, O One-Well-Gone!" > >"Then do, Dabba, what you think it is now time to do." > >Then Ven. Dabba Mallaputta, rising from his seat, bowed down to the Blessed One >and, circling him on the right, rose up into the air and sat cross-legged in >the sky, in space. Entering the fire property and emerging from it, he was >totally unbound. Now, when Dabba Mallaputta rose up into the air and, sitting >cross-legged in the sky, in space, entered the fire property and then emerged >from it and was totally unbound, his body burned and was consumed so that >neither ashes nor soot could be discerned. Just as when ghee or oil is burned >and consumed, neither ashes nor soot can be discerned, in the same way, when >Dabba Mallaputta rose up into the air and, sitting cross-legged in the sky, in >space, entered the fire property and then emerged from it and was totally >unbound, his body burned and was consumed so that neither ashes nor soot could >be discerned. > >Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion >exclaimed: > >The body disintegrated, >perception ceased, >pain & rapture were entirely consumed, >fabrications were stilled: >consciousness has come to its end." > >www.accesstoinsight.org > >Kevin: I wonder how the Commentary tries to get around that one. > KO;? did you see any word or statement that describe? this person is killing himself or it is just?describing about the Arahant last few moments before his death :-)? Pse note the words,?now it is time for my?total Unbinding and not total killing of oneself. Ken O #109637 From: Kevin F Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Suicide DN16 Ud8.9 farrellkevin80 Hi Robert, Robert: Dabba was an Arahant from age 7. Kevin: So I assume this is a case of suicide then. Would that be correct? Thanks, Kevin ___________ #109638 From: Ken O Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] No conventional actions, they don't matter at all? ashkenn2k Dear Kevin Channa was not even a non-returner at the moment he wish to commit suicide.? The duration of his enlightment is very fast, after the action he?that he?harm himself and before the death.? It is a knife, so dying is not so fast, still got?plenty of moments for cittas to arise?and not a vaporiser when it completely annihilate oneself :-) Ken O #109639 From: Kevin F Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Suicide DN16 Ud8.9 farrellkevin80 Dear Ken: Ken O: did you see any word or statement that describe this person is killing himself or it is just describing about the Arahant last few moments before his death :-) Pse note the words, now it is time for my total Unbinding and not total killing of oneself. Ken O Kevin: I interpret this as an intentional act of destroying the sense bases and the life faculty. Here is the relevant part of the text, Ken: "Now, when Dabba Mallaputta *rose up into the air and, sitting cross-legged in the sky, in space, *entered* the fire property and then emerged from it and was totally unbound, his body burned and was consumed so that neither ashes nor soot could be discerned.* Kevin: He decided it was time, used his powers from jhana to rise up in the sky, deliberately and entered the fire property through meditation deliberately, so that it would burn up the sense bases. It all seems deliberate to me. It is not like he "just died naturally". Kevin ___________ #109640 From: Kevin F Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] No conventional actions, they don't matter at all? farrellkevin80 Dear Ken, KenChanna was not even a non-returner at the moment he wish to commit suicide. The duration of his enlightment is very fast, after the action he that he harm himself and before the death. It is a knife, so dying is not so fast, still got plenty of moments for cittas to arise and not a vaporiser when it completely annihilate oneself :-) Kevin: Hi Ken. Yes, that is the stance of the Commentary. But let me reiterate to you that the actual story doesn't mesh with that. Here it is again... Kevin: The most interesting case is that of Venerable Channa. He announced to Sariputta that he was going to take his life, and also that he would not be reborn. Sariputta left and went to the Buddha, after imploring Channa not to take the knife and offering his assistance and so on. After Sariputta left, Channa took his life anyway. Sariputta then questioned the Buddha about it and the Buddha basically said that Channa had told you himself that he would not be reborn, and that his action was not blamewhorthy because of that. He said that it is blameworthy if he would be reborn. Now the Commentary explains that Channa became an Arahant at the moment of death, after taking up the knife. But that is not in line with how Channa pronounced that he would have no more rebirths to Sariputta before he took up the knife. Nor with the Buddha's words to Sariputta along the lines that "Channa told you himself that he would not be reborn". It's very interesting. I will need to study it and research more to understand. ___________ With metta Kevin The business of an intellectual is to think. Most people think religion is staring at the perfection of a rose bud. They don't understand the decay of the rose bud nor of the mind that admires it and then quickly decays. - me Kevin's discussion forum = http://www.dhammasnippets.webs.com/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5vuTToYN8M&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVpYcc7BCj8 #109641 From: Ken O Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Suicide DN16 Ud8.9 ashkenn2k Dear Kevin KO:? Only those Arahants with that kind of meditative powers could that.? A human body is alive by four factors and one of them is temperature and temperature continue to condition the body even when one dies.? so after enter Unbinding in that meditative states, it condition the burning of the body. Now, when Dabba Mallaputta *rose up into the air and, sitting >cross-legged in the sky, in space, *entered* the fire property and then emerged >from it and was totally unbound, his body burned and was consumed so that >neither ashes nor soot could be discerned.* You see the word, emerged and totally unbound.? totally unbound could only happen when it is in Nibbana, no longer in the condition world, what was left is just the body which is burned by the heat generated by the meditative power after emerging. Ken O #109642 From: Ken O Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] No conventional actions, they don't matter at all? ashkenn2k Dear Kevin please see the word again Buddha basically said that Channa had >told you himself that he would not be reborn, and that his action was not >blamewhorthy because of that. He said that it is blameworthy if he would be >reborn. KO: I thought this was very clear.? if he was not an Arahant before he died, it is blameworthy as this kiling oneself?will lead to aksuala kamma and continuation of this condition life in the samasara,? it is not blameworthy because Channa was enlighted before he died, no more kamma left for living in the conditioned world.?? so he is enlighted before he dieds but he was not enlighted before taking the life to end this life.? It this very brief moment of taking the life and the last citta that channa was enlighted. Ken O #109643 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Suicide DN16 Ud8.9 truth_aerator Dear KenO, all, The sutta is clear. Ven. Dabba decided that it was time and burned terminated life. Since He was an Arahant, the death is Parinibbana. What happened was not a natural death. How many people do you know that naturally die by levitating into the air in cross legged position, enter meditative attainment and self cremate the body that not even ashes remain - all this after saying "Now is the time for my end". With metta, Alex #109644 From: Kevin F Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Suicide DN16 Ud8.9 farrellkevin80 Dear Ken: Ken O: Only those Arahants with that kind of meditative powers could that. A human body is alive by four factors and one of them is temperature and temperature continue to condition the body even when one dies. so after enter Unbinding in that meditative states, it condition the burning of the body. You see the word, emerged and totally unbound. totally unbound could only happen when it is in Nibbana, no longer in the condition world, what was left is just the body which is burned by the heat generated by the meditative power after emerging. Kevin: Dear Ken, Right. The point here is that he announced it was time for his total unbinding (death ), and he then flew up into the air using his medtative powers, and using his meditative powers, intentionally entered a state of the fire element where it would burn up the sense bases. It was not a death by natural causes. Thus, he destroyed the sense bases and life faculty on purpose. Now I want to be very clear about something. I don't think an Arahant would end his life because of attachment or aversion. But there are factors we may not see. Arahants still have thoughts. Maybe in many past lifetimes he reflected with wisdom that the sense bases are awful and shouldn't be in existence, just because they are the product of samsara and ignorance. Maybe he had thoughts along the lines that they should be burned by someone who is wise simply because of those accumulations. Kevin ___________ #109645 From: A T Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:27 pm Subject: Re: Suicide DN16 Ud8.9 truth_aerator Dear Kevin, KenO, Sarah, all, Another interesting case: An Aryan cuts his throat. A sekkha can take his own life. As a trainee, Ven. Godhika became an Arahant as he cut his throat. Mara: How, O Blessed One, can your disciple (sa-vako)— One delighting in the Teaching, A trainee (sekkho) seeking his mind’s ideal—Take his own life, O widely famed? Buddha: “Such indeed is how the steadfast act: They are not in love with life. Having drawn out craving with its root, Godhika has attained final Nibbåna.” ‘‘Evañhi dhi-ra- kubbanti, na-vakan.khanti ji-vitam.; Samu-lam. tan.hamabbuyha, godhiko parinibbuto’’ti. SN4. 23 (3) Godhika Ven. BB Trans. An aryan (sa-vako + sekkho) can take his life. This is how the steadfast act, they are not in love with life. With metta, Alex #109646 From: Kevin F Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] No conventional actions, they don't matter at all? farrellkevin80 Dear Ken O: Ken: I thought this was very clear. if he was not an Arahant before he died, it is blameworthy as this kiling oneself will lead to aksuala kamma and continuation of this condition life in the samasara, it is not blameworthy because Channa was enlighted before he died, no more kamma left for living in the conditioned world. so he is enlighted before he dieds but he was not enlighted before taking the life to end this life. It this very brief moment of taking the life and the last citta that channa was enlighted. Kevin: Ken, Venerable Channa told Sariputta that he would have no more rebirths *before* he took up the knife, and *before* sariputta left him. That is how the story goes. *After* the Venerable Sariputta left, the Venerable Channa took up the knife, again having already prior to that announced he would not be reborn. This was before he cut his throat. kevin ___________ #109647 From: Kevin F Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Suicide DN16 Ud8.9 farrellkevin80 Dear Ken: Ken O: Only those Arahants with that kind of meditative powers could that. A human body is alive by four factors and one of them is temperature and temperature continue to condition the body even when one dies. so after enter Unbinding in that meditative states, it condition the burning of the body. You see the word, emerged and totally unbound. totally unbound could only happen when it is in Nibbana, no longer in the condition world, what was left is just the body which is burned by the heat generated by the meditative power after emerging. Kevin: Dear Ken, Right. The point here is that he announced it was time for his total unbinding (death ), and he then flew up into the air using his medtative powers, and using his meditative powers, intentionally entered a state of the fire element where it would burn up the sense bases. It was not a death by natural causes. Thus, he destroyed the sense bases and life faculty on purpose. Now I want to be very clear about something. I don't think an Arahant would end his life because of attachment or aversion. But there are factors we may not see. Arahants still have thoughts. Maybe in many past lifetimes he reflected with wisdom that the sense bases are awful and shouldn't be in existence, just because they are the product of samsara and ignorance. Maybe he had thoughts along the lines that they should be burned by someone who is wise simply because of those accumulations -- *without aversion*. Kevin ___________ #109648 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] No conventional actions, they don't matter at all? truth_aerator Hello Sukinder, all, > Suk: Why not focus on the development of sati and panna, whether >this is about samatha or vipassana? Great, so there are things to focus on and develop. I am happy to hear this. >This way you'd avoid the need to justify some particular outward >action where the danger of attachments to rites and rituals is >always present. In many cases the external physical action is manifestation of certain kinds of cittas and subtle rupa (bodily intimation). Furthermore there is nothing in Jhana that is rite or ritual. Not unless certain wrong cittas arise. Buddha would teach rites and rituals, but he did teach Jhana. You know the primary definition of rites & rituals as Indians believed? Put horns on your head, take off your cloth and go do ox-ascetics. Eat grass, eat from the floor, etc etc. Indian people actually did that. And dog-duty ascetism, and washing "their sins off" in the River of Ganges, and various other superstitious things like that. They thought that such actions could purify Kamma. They didn't know about wholesome development of Maha Kusala qualities such as Jhana. > Besides Jhana has its own specific causes Right. And if they are never put in, the results won't occur. > > Suk: Again I consider this a rather misleading representation of >Jhana. I get the impression that this revolves around the idea that >sitting still with a back erect and a particular subject of >meditation, is a wholesome activity(non-doing) because apparently, >one is not involved in any evil actions through body, speech or >mind at the time. It is your impression. One develops super refined observation of presently arisen realities (namarupa) with which one does satipatthana. >Suk: So why not pay attention to the citta itself. It is this which >from moment to moment is either kusala, akusala or neither >regardless of which posture and how long this is being maintained. Right. This is what Buddhist jhana is for. with metta, Alex #109649 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:02 pm Subject: should one try one's best? truth_aerator Dear Rob2k, all, >R:There is no possibility of anyone deciding to listen to a Dhamma >talk simply because there is no self. Are you saying that cittas and cetasikas responcible for decision cannot arise? Are you saying that there is no cetana cetasika? Of course, we do not have control as in "let me grow wings and fly to Pluto" kind, or "let me have XYZ vipassana nana now". What we seem to differ is on the point of present intention. IMHO what happens in the present is not just determined by what was done in the past, BUT also depends on what one does NOW. If one is dropped into a lake, one shouldn't just cross the arms and hope that the conditions will carry one to the shore. One needs to put in effort (viriya) and intention (cetana cetasika) to swim to safety NOW. Of course it is possible that certain circumstances (a bag of rocks tied to the leg, or too strong water current) might hinder one, and can even drown the swimmer regardless of the effort done. This is why it may be good to prepare before hand, and do one best when the time comes for cittas, cetasikas and rupas to perform. This is why it is good idea to prepare before hand. "Hard in training, easy in Battle" >R:One could be in a temple where pure Dhamma is being taught and >tell >oneself "I will listen to every bit" And yet miss some parts. >Or >think "I will understand correctly" and yet misunderstand. Shouldn't one try one's best to be attentive? It goes without saying that past conditions may hinder or help. But regardless of past conditions, should one try one's best? Similar q on awareness: Should one try one's best to be aware of presently arisen realities and know them for what they are? Thank you for your wonderful post, With metta, Alex #109650 From: Ken O Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Suicide DN16 Ud8.9 ashkenn2k Dear Alex and Kevin no arahant can kill themself.? ?Buddha already said that clearly in the suttas that Arahant cannot never kill or impossible to kill?so do you think?they could kill themselves.????? what is burnt up is just rupas, the citta is already gone to the Unbinding so one must look at the words carefully.? Some Arahants can also do the twin miracle when they pass away.? When Channa speak to Sariputta and now according to the text given by Kevin?<< He announced to Sariputta that he was going to take his life, and also that he would not be reborn. >>? If he is an Arahant do you think he could take his life, that is why Buddha same whether it is blameworthy or not is to explain the actions of the kamma which I said earlier to Kevin Ken O #109651 From: Kevin F Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Suicide DN16 Ud8.9 farrellkevin80 Dear Ken: Ken: Dear Alex and Kevin no arahant can kill themself. Buddha already said that clearly in the suttas that Arahant cannot never kill or impossible to kill so do you think they could kill themselves. what is burnt up is just rupas, the citta is already gone to the Unbinding so one must look at the words carefully. Some Arahants can also do the twin miracle when they pass away. When Channa speak to Sariputta and now according to the text given by Kevin << He announced to Sariputta that he was going to take his life, and also that he would not be reborn. >> If he is an Arahant do you think he could take his life, that is why Buddha same whether it is blameworthy or not is to explain the actions of the kamma which I said earlier to Kevin Kevin: So Ken, you are admitting that an Arahant can take his life, like in the case of Venerabe Dabba, but you are saying that it is not technically killing. Is that correct? Kevin ___________ #109652 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:11 pm Subject: Buddha's suicide truth_aerator Dear KenO, all > no arahant can kill themself.? Buddha already said that clearly in >the suttas that Arahant cannot never kill or impossible to kill?so >do you think?they could kill themselves. When Buddha stopped his vital formations, fully knowing that PariNibbana would occur in 3 month, what do you think this action was? Lets say a person pulls out fish from the water into dry land. In few minutes the fish will die from suffocation. Is this act considering to be killing, or terminating life? Sure. Lets say a person depends on life-support to live and cannot live without it. Lets say He, being fully aware when his life will end due to going off life-support, personally switches off life support causing death in near future. How isn't this act a protracted Suicide? Even the Buddha did this, nothing to say about some Arahants. >If he is an Arahant do you think he could take his life, Of course. The Buddha did, ven. Dabba did... Buddha: "Such indeed is how the steadfast act: They are not in love with life." - SN4. 23 (3) Godhika Ven. BB Trans. I love this phrase. With metta, Alex #109653 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:10 pm Subject: Re: should one try one's best? szmicio Dear Alex, If I can add something. > >R:There is no possibility of anyone deciding to listen to a Dhamma >talk simply because there is no self. > > Are you saying that cittas and cetasikas responcible for decision cannot arise? Are you saying that there is no cetana cetasika? L: Of course they can arise. But we dont know when. > Of course, we do not have control as in "let me grow wings and fly to Pluto" kind, or "let me have XYZ vipassana nana now". L: This reminds me an old discussion with my friend. I was depresed after meditation retreat and I was complaining that I could not concentrate, and others on retreat can do this so easily. He answered: "I dont know anyone in this World that can concentrate." > What we seem to differ is on the point of present intention. > > IMHO what happens in the present is not just determined by what was done in the past, BUT also depends on what one does NOW. L: This is true. This is why Buddha stress so much to try our best in development kusala now. But consider also patticasamupada and 4NT, then this consideration brings understading that all is out of control, no person, just moha that condition all the flow of what we that for life, doing ourselves. > If one is dropped into a lake, one shouldn't just cross the arms and hope that the conditions will carry one to the shore. One needs to put in effort (viriya) and intention (cetana cetasika) to swim to safety NOW. Of course it is possible that certain circumstances (a bag of rocks tied to the leg, or too strong water current) might hinder one, and can even drown the swimmer regardless of the effort done. This is why it may be good to prepare before hand, and do one best when the time comes for cittas, cetasikas and rupas to perform. > This is why it is good idea to prepare before hand. > > "Hard in training, easy in Battle" > > >R:One could be in a temple where pure Dhamma is being taught and >tell >oneself "I will listen to every bit" And yet miss some parts. >Or >think "I will understand correctly" and yet misunderstand. > > > Shouldn't one try one's best to be attentive? L: I think better is to learn in life that this is all out of control, conditioned. Can you grasp the meaing of the each word when listening? Can you decide to listen to the Dhamma? This is all conditioned. Best wishes Lukas #109654 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:48 pm Subject: Re: should one try one's best? truth_aerator Dear Lukas, all, > > >R:There is no possibility of anyone deciding to listen to a Dhamma >talk simply because there is no self. > > > > Are you saying that cittas and cetasikas responcible for decision >cannot arise? Are you saying that there is no cetana cetasika? > > L: Of course they can arise. But we dont know when. Does lacking the knowledge of when and what citta/cetasika arises refute "trying to do one's best" with whatever conditions there are? > L: This reminds me an old discussion with my friend. I was depresed >after meditation retreat and I was complaining that I could not >concentrate, and others on retreat can do this so easily. He >answered: "I dont know anyone in this World that can concentrate." IMHO those who have done something enough times before, then it will be easy to do it now. Those who find it easy to concentrate now, may have practiced it a lot and at some point did find it difficult... Accumulations & Conditions... > L: I think better is to learn in life that this is all out of >control, conditioned. Swimming is conditioned sure. If one is dropped into a lake, shouldn't one swim out of it? Or should one cross one's arms, refuse to do anything (swim) and let the conditions decide? Guess what will happen. Same with Dhamma path. Just because everything is conditioned does it mean that one shouldn't "try one's best and let conditions take care of the rest"? With metta, Alex #109655 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:17 pm Subject: Re: should one try one's best? szmicio Dear Alex, > > > Are you saying that cittas and cetasikas responcible for decision >cannot arise? Are you saying that there is no cetana cetasika? > > > > L: Of course they can arise. But we dont know when. > > A: Does lacking the knowledge of when and what citta/cetasika arises refute "trying to do one's best" with whatever conditions there are? L: Of course not. This is not in contradiction. I think that one can do all his best ind development all kusala. But why i remember this so rarely? See this is conditioned. > > L: This reminds me an old discussion with my friend. I was depresed >after meditation retreat and I was complaining that I could not >concentrate, and others on retreat can do this so easily. He >answered: "I dont know anyone in this World that can concentrate." > > >Alex: IMHO those who have done something enough times before, then it will be easy to do it now. Those who find it easy to concentrate now, may have practiced it a lot and at some point did find it difficult... > > Accumulations & Conditions... L: Of course, I understand this, and that's why I try to be honest with myslf, that I dont have such accumulations for concentration. I practiced meditation for 4 years, even long long rettreats. I was unable to concentrate. It takes me a lot of time to accept this. > > L: I think better is to learn in life that this is all out of >control, conditioned. > > Swimming is conditioned sure. If one is dropped into a lake, shouldn't one swim out of it? Or should one cross one's arms, refuse to do anything (swim) and let the conditions decide? Guess what will happen. Same with Dhamma path. L: A person can have no intetntion to go to another shore. Look at people who have no intention to giving up smoking. intention doesnt arise. Shall we condemn them? Or have a metta instead and learn that all intentions are not ours and out of control? > Just because everything is conditioned does it mean that one shouldn't "try one's best and let conditions take care of the rest"? L: Why not let the Dhamma works. best wishes Lukas #109656 From: "Graham" Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:00 pm Subject: Temples in Thailand grahamarussell Dear Sarah/Ann, I am currently in the UK, Horsham to be precise, but since I lost my job and we can't pay the mortgage any longer, we are planning to move to Chachoengsao where my wife has an orchard. I intend to try and find a job teaching English, (which I did for 5 years before) and run the orchard as a small holding. Perhaps you could also therefore be kind enough to put me in touch with your friend with the language college? We currently attend Wat Amaravati in the UK where formally Luang Por Sumedho was abbot. He has just handed over control and will also be moving to Thailand in November, back to his old Wat in Obon. We will be about 90km from Bangkok, my wife's family live in Samut Prakan, so we will visit there and will be pleased to met you sometime. If course if you like mangos, you can also visit us! Could you please use this address please for off list mails: grahamarussell@... as I will change ISPs before leaving. With metta, Graham Hi Graham (& Ann), Welcome to DSG! --- On Mon, 30/8/10, Graham wrote: >It looks like we will be moving to Thailand in November. >My wife has land in Chachoengsao which is near Chonburi. Does anyone know if there is a good temple near there please? .... S: As it happens, I recognise the name because one of our members and good friends, Ann, often mentions Chachoengsao where she worked as a volunteer many, many years ago. We also met her friend, who also has a keen interest in the Dhamma, and who runs a language college there. I know they'd be glad to help and provide information. <...> #109657 From: "Graham" Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:20 pm Subject: Help Please - Dharma Books for Children grahamarussell Dear all, Help please! Does anyone know a good source for paper copies of Dharma books for kids or other Buddhist teaching materials at low cost please! I have just lost my job :( I'll be going to Thailand to teach soon and would like some teaching resources. I also have two small children who enjoy having stories read to them and want English language Dhamma material for them. Many thanks. With Metta, Graham #109658 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Suicide DN16 Ud8.9 sarahprocter... Dear Kevin, Alex & all, ? Also see more under "suicide" in UP. ? Will write again in a few days time when back in Hong Kong. ? Packing up now for our trip to Kaeng Krajan now. ? Metta ? Sarah ====== #109659 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Suicide DN16 Ud8.9 truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, Does one of those UP links explain suicide of Dabba Mallaputta or even suicide of the Buddha? Both of them are Arahants! Even the Buddha committed what amounted to extended suicide. So no need to doubt the possibility that Ven. Channa was arahant. He declared his innocence to ven. Sariputta. Buddha has affirmed that one is blameless if one becomes or is an arahant at the moment of suicide. What is blameworthy is being reborn. MN144. *about Ven. Godhika who slid his throat with a knife. Buddha: "Such indeed is how the steadfast* act: They are not in love with life." - SN4. 23 (3) Godhika Ven. BB Trans. Again, Buddha was the prime example of knowingly switching off His life-support that would make Him die in 3 month. He could have lived longer but chose not to because Ananda didn't beg Him to live full lifespan. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.8.09.than.html http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima3/144-channovada\ -e.html With metta, Alex #109660 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Suicide DN16 Ud8.9 upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - This sort of business perplexes me. Every arahant, and certainly every buddha, is 100% free of craving and aversion. Hence, there is no desire for continuation of experience and none for the opposite. There is no craving for either being or non-being. There is no desire for things to be a particular way or for no way at all. Neither presence nor absence is wanted. With metta, Howard /What's the need for a well if water is everywhere? Having cut craving by the root, One would go about searching for what?/ (From the Udapana Sutta) #109661 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:25 am Subject: Buddha's suicide truth_aerator Hello Howard, all, >This sort of business perplexes me. Every arahant, and > certainly every buddha, is 100% free of craving and aversion. Hence, there is no > desire for continuation of experience and none for the opposite. There is no > craving for either being or non-being. There is no desire for things to be > a particular way or for no way at all. Neither presence nor absence is > wanted. Maybe it was also to teach a lesson (in impermanence for example) on the part of the Buddha. Maybe a sick monk didn't want to be a burden to others. Maybe suicide is an ultimate demonstration of non-attachment to existence. The fact is that the Buddha has commited suicide, and so did some Arhats. I find it strange that some try to deny the validity of suicide. It is Mara himself who didn't want Vakkali (SN22.87) to commit suicide while it was the Buddha who praised suicide as an Arhant (as long as one doesn't take up another body). Buddha: "Such indeed is how the steadfast* act: They are not in love with life." - SN4. 23 (3) Godhika Ven. BB Trans. "if someone gives up this body and seizes another, I say it is a fault. In the bhikkhu that fault is not apparent. Bhikkhu Channa took his life faultlessly." So if one is reborn, than one is at fault. If one takes one's life (suicide) as an Arhant or becomes one in that moment - then one is faultless. http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima3/144-channovada\ -e.html I know this sounds very sad in western culture that values life. But suicide isn't always looked down up, simply because it goes against attachment to life. With metta, Alex #109662 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:52 am Subject: corrections truth_aerator correction, the MN144 should be after the sutta quote, not my comments. "if someone gives up this body and seizes another, I say it is a fault. In the bhikkhu that fault is not apparent. Bhikkhu Channa took his life faultlessly." http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima3/144-channovada\ -e.html So if one is reborn, than one is at fault. If one takes one's life (suicide) as an Arhant or becomes one in that moment - then one is faultless. Corrected below: >Suicide sounds very sad in western culture that >values life because >it goes against attachment to life. With metta, Alex #109664 From: Kevin F Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Suicide DN16 Ud8.9 farrellkevin80 (my apologies. I walked away before the last message was finished. When I returned I thought it was complete and sent it). Hi Sarah: Sarah: Also see more under "suicide" in UP. Will write again in a few days time when back in Hong Kong. Packing up now for our trip to Kaeng Krajan now. Kevin: Hi Sarah, thanks. Have a great trip! Best, Kevin F ___________ #109665 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:38 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Suicide DN16 Ud8.9 rjkjp1 Dear Kevin No, absolutely not suicide. Unless you think as Alex sates that the Buddha, sariputta and so on were also suicides. I am personally not interested in non-orthodox ideas, I think even mahayana doesn't say that. Robert > > > #109666 From: Kevin F Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Suicide DN16 Ud8.9 farrellkevin80 Hi Robert, Thanks for your message. Robert: No, absolutely not suicide. Unless you think as Alex sates that the Buddha, sariputta and so on were also suicides. I am personally not interested in non-orthodox ideas, I think even mahayana doesn't say that. Robert Kevin: Hi Robert. Nevermind non orthodox or mahayana ideas. Please just tell me how you perceive the actions of Dabba. Did he attain Arahantship at the moment of death? Did he intentionally burn up the sense bases, etc? Do you think He knew he was going to die so he burnt up the sense bases? What is you understanding of the matter? Thanks, Kevin F ___________ #109667 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:15 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Suicide DN16 Ud8.9 rjkjp1 Dear Kevin Arahats die in various ways. It is not unusual for the great disciples like dabba to attain khandha parinibbana in such a way. Even outside the 80 great disciples those arahtas who have mastery of jhana and who are also able to obtain the 9th jhana (nirodha samapatti) can know when will be their time of death. Dabba knew and until his parinibbana he could still perform iddhi - it is not strange and not suicide. robert > > > #109668 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:07 am Subject: Re: should one try one's best? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: >> Shouldn't one try one's best to be attentive? It goes without saying that past conditions may hinder or help. But regardless of past conditions, should one try one's best? > > Similar q on awareness: > Should one try one's best to be aware of presently arisen realities and know them for what they are? > +++++++ Dear Alex despite your best intentions- some years back- not to agree with what is said by say nina or sarah surely you can detect your current movement towards their side. Take Kevin, I think he won't mind me retelling his story. he comes to bangkok to ordain as a forest monk, has a chat with Ivan and me on his first day in Thailand and decides to stay in bangkok-despite disagreeing with a portion of what was said. He does a mahasi retreat for a month and then despite himself, despite his website devoted to mahasi technique, he decides it is not the right way. Then he becomes the first farang monk to be accepted for ordination for over decade at wat bovorn(kings temple. This in itself was so co-incidental (meaning many conditions coming together) He happens to meet a farang monk at the discussions with ajahn Sujin who had ordained some 30 years before at wat bovorn -who arranges for him to meet.. etc . He has best intentions to ordain for life. Then he thinks mahayana is true - he leaves the monkhood only a month later, intending to reach the heights in that sect.. Then he thinks Khun Sujin is teaching true Dhamma, then not so true.. and it goes on .. And life is like that for all of us, we all have our own stories.. Intentions arise continuously - but they are almost always rooted in lobha- and if we don't see the other factors co-arising, then intention will be given far more importance than it deserves. When we try our best to ne aware what is really occuring... We don't have to try to make dhammas, right? Dhammas are arising ceaselessly.. they are there even now when we don't try to be aware. And when we try to be aware it is likeley that wanting to catch the present moment is also present. And that is lobha - it blocks seeing. It is why the Buddha hesitated to teach- this is a subtle path.. robert #109669 From: Kevin F Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Suicide DN16 Ud8.9 farrellkevin80 Dear Robert, Robert: Dear Kevin Arahats die in various ways. It is not unusual for the great disciples like dabba to attain khandha parinibbana in such a way. Even outside the 80 great disciples those arahtas who have mastery of jhana and who are also able to obtain the 9th jhana (nirodha samapatti) can know when will be their time of death. Dabba knew and until his parinibbana he could still perform iddhi - it is not strange and not suicide. robert Kevin: Good post Robert (and no worries about you mentioning some of the events of my life, that is no problem at all of course). Okay, so I have some more detail now. Forgive me, but I still find it hard to construe your understanding on the matter from just a mere few sentences. But, I think you believe that Venerable Dabba knew he would die that day, at that time, wether or not he burned up the body, so He did it to coincide with that incident. Is that what you understand? Thanks as always, Kevin F. ___________ #109670 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:41 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Suicide DN16 Ud8.9 rjkjp1 Dear Kevin yes, but I think also it was his accumulations to die in such a way, not really a 'choice' that he would weigh up. robert > > > #109671 From: Vince Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Time. cerovzt@... Dear Nina you wrote: > Sorry I did not answer you before, but I was away for one week. Hope all goes well > Meanwhile: why think and think about time? This will not help. because it is in the present moment. If we know speed, the speed is here. Why we should ignore this?. > Why wonder how the succession of cittas can be known? Pa~n~naa is > pa~n~naa and it will surely know. But first things come first. In the > suttas it is said that pa~n~naa can shoot from far and very precisely. Why do you think it is in the far reach?. Time is part of the experience of a succession of dhammas. > In the beginning you wrote to me that you were looking for the > practice, explanations about the practice and could not find it > elsewhere except in Kh Sujin's words. That was the reason why you > visited her. Yes. She is very direct, always pointing out: what about > the present moment. She said about the practice: no interest in > anything else but the present moment. yes. But remember also in the beginning you wrote me about make questions is very important, and to ask any thing. I have intact my good opinion of the Sujin teaching. Just I try to understand instead to repeat. We say there is nama, rupa and cita. However, when we say that there is a succesion of cittas, there is a new element which is Time. Time exists in the same moment of we conceive "before" and "after". Visuddhimagga confirm this by saying the Time is a non-existent, state-receptacle; depending of co-nascence and located near arising and falling. Therefore it is present every time there is a succession of cittas. So it becomes a question about the present moment. Well, or at least about that scenery from where we talk of a succession of cittas. > When you are thinking of time, thinking is the present moment. It > seems to last, but in fact there are many cittas thinking, arising in > succession. But we should not try to know what is still beyond our > understanding. this is not about previous lives or the end of the universe. The only way to know if something is still beyond our understanding is trying to understand it. Time is conceived among dhammas and the self; I don't see it is beyond our understanding. Why do you says this? > N: But you cannot experience cessation and nibbaana yet. Thinking > about this distracts from the present moment. Nobody can stop the > speed of cittas, they go on continuously. Except in a very special > attainment for those who are very skilled in samatha and vipassanaa > and have already reached the stage of anaagaami or arahat. But this > is such a special case, we need not occupy ourselves with that. yes, I don't possess attainments to announce. However, in the present moment, it seems the understanding of distinction of nama and rupa can arise by different ways non related with a knowledge of the cittas speed. In example, by cultivating equanimity or non-self there is possibility of an insight into truth and nibbana. Then the knowledge of the nature of nama-rupa and consciousness it would be attained despite no previous knowledge of cittas speed. I'm wrong?. Or is nibbana a consequence of the perception of cittas speed? best, Vince. #109672 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Help Please - Dharma Books for Children nilovg Dear Graham, Op 30-aug-2010, om 19:20 heeft Graham het volgende geschreven: > Does anyone know a good source for paper copies of Dharma books for > kids or other Buddhist teaching materials at low cost please! I > have just lost my job :( -------- N: Also a welcome from me. I feel with you that you have lost your job. For your kids, think of the Jataka stories, these are good for practice in daily life, both for kids as well as for grown ups. But as to shopping, I do not know. -------- > > G: I'll be going to Thailand to teach soon and would like some > teaching resources. I also have two small children who enjoy having > stories read to them and want English language Dhamma material for > them. ------- N: Then you could visit Acharn Sujin on Saturday at the Foundation (Dhamma Study and Support Foundation). That is an English session and people there may be able to help you with books for kids. What will you be teaching? Nina. #109673 From: Tadao Miyamoto Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Address of Khun Sujin's Foundation of? tadaomiyamot... Hi Khun Nina: Yesterday, I visited the Foundation, which was far more 'elaborated' than I had imagined. I've left some donation and got some of your books. I would like to thank you for the books. Also, yesterday, I had a chance to talk with Jonothan on the phone. It was a pleasant experience. I assume that everything is fine with you. tadao #109674 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:44 am Subject: What I heard. nilovg Dear friends, (from India recording, continued) We talk about dreams occurring while we are asleep, but what about this moment? There are dreams at night and dreams now. What is the difference? After the process of seeing or hearing one thinks of the story of what one has perceived. Even after experiencing visible object now we think of people and things which are lasting. Visible object that impinges on te eyesense has gone and what is left is the sign. Sa~n~naa remembers shape and form all day, without there being understanding of realities. Nina: Is the nimitta a concept? Kh Sujin: Whatever is not a paramattha dhamma is a concept. When visible object appears we should know it as just a reality. When there is a little more understanding, there will be less attachment to people and things. It goes as slowly as the wearing out of the knife?s handle one holds each day. We take people out from visible object and remember them. We think of what has been experienced, like a dream. --------- About the Perfections, paaramiis: It is of no use to wonder whether kusala is a parami or not. Good deeds are paaramiis when there is understanding. The purpose of the teachings is detachment from self and all realities, even from kusala. There should not be an idea of self who wants to attain nibbaana. When people hear about nibbaana they just want to reach it. When they hear about the paaramiis they would like to perform them, but what about the understanding of a moment of kusala? The idea of ?I? comes in again. Any time there can be a paaramii. The paaramiis will lead to perfect detachment from conditioned realities. ******** Nina. #109675 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddha's suicide upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - So long as there is no *craving* for nonexistence and no killing of oneself as an "escape," I am not gravely perplexed, for I also can imagine circumstances in which the action might be to serve a useful purpose. However, I can *easily* imagine a near-infinity of greater useful purpose in continuing to remain available to others rather than in providing a single lesson in impermanence that is readily available in any case or in providing a single demonstration of some other Dhamma principle. This particular perspective of mine likely has three primary influences: a) Mahayana a little bit, b) more so, a personal inclination: towards a love of people and other creatures, and a sheer joy in "whatever is," even including distressing events (to an increasing extent), and, mostly perhaps, c) the Judaic reverence for life ("L'Chaim!"). As for the Buddha "committing suicide," I question that interpretation: My understanding (of the story) has been that the Buddha, rather than *taking* his own life, simply didn't extend it, and that he would have extended it had there been the request to do so. (Of course, there are, as have been pointed out, other rather unambiguous stories of arahants who have committed suicide, and these *are* perplexing to me. I do not know what degree of credence to accord to them.) BTW, I consider the "story format" of the Sutta Pitaka to be a mode of presentation of the teachings and not necessarily expounding literal, historical fact, but rather a pedagogical mix of fact and legend. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #109676 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Address of Khun Sujin's Foundation of? nilovg Dear Tadao, Op 31-aug-2010, om 7:53 heeft Tadao Miyamoto het volgende geschreven: > Yesterday, I visited the Foundation, which was far more > 'elaborated' than I had > imagined. > I've left some donation and got some of your books. > I would like to thank you for the books. ------- N: anumodana for your gift to the foundation. It shows that you see its value. It is good you wrote, because we had just prepared a packedge of books for you to be sent to Japan. Now you got them already at the Foundation. We are fine, except that Lodewijk is not able to make far journeys anymore. Just getting older. All the best, Nina. #109677 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddha's suicide truth_aerator Hello Howard, all, Thank you for sharing your views. As for the Buddha: >As for the Buddha "committing suicide," I question that > interpretation: My understanding (of the story) has been that the >Buddha, rather than *taking* his own life, simply didn't extend it, >and that he would have extended it had there been the request to >do so. DN16 clearly states that Buddha renounced His vital formations that would cause him to die within 3 month. He had 3 options: 1) He could have extended his life. 2) He would shorten it 3) He wouldn't alter it. The sutta clearly says the 2nd option. "10. And at the Capala shrine the Blessed One thus mindfully and clearly comprehending renounced his will to live on. And upon the Lord's renouncing his will to live on, there came a tremendous earthquake, dreadful and astonishing, and thunder rolled across the heavens. ... "With inward calm and joy he breaks, As though a coat of mail, his own life's cause." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html RENOUNCING HIS WILL TO LIVE ON. Lets say a person depends on life-support to live and cannot live without it. Lets say he, being fully aware when his life will end due to going off life-support, personally switches off life support causing death in near future. How isn't this act extended Suicide? Buddha: "Such indeed is how the steadfast act: They are not in love with life." - SN4. 23 (3) Godhika Ven. BB Trans. With metta, Alex #109678 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:01 pm Subject: Re: q. chandrafabian Dear sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: SARAH : > Dear Fabian, > Thank you for sharing your understanding of the Teachings. We have a different understanding of bhavana and many other aspects. Also, I like to put the emphasis on pa~n~naa which develops, which gradually "sees clearly". Never a Self to do any of this. FABIAN: Dear Sarah, I think we understood awareness in different way. the awareness that should be developed by Vipassana Bhavana is not aware of the object of the senses, but rather aware of the activity of the senses. for example: suppose you aware of a can of coke in front of you, this is aware of the object of seeing. In Vippassana bhavana we should aware of our mental activity of seeing, not aware of the object of seeing. By aware of the mental activity of seeing, panna develops, and we can gradually "sees clearly". We aware of the object of the senses all of our lives when we awake, - Does these awareness of the object of their senses brought insight? No, I don't think so.... - Does mentally handicapped person aware of the object of their senses? yes I think so..... - Does the awareness of the object of their senses for (mentally handicapped person) brought insight? No, I don't think so... - The mentally handicapped person aware of the object of their senses all of their lives, are they having insight? ----------------------------- SARAH : Rather than be concerned about the understanding of thought processes and fine detail, I see more value in learning to understand realities at this moment such as seeing and visible object. If there is no understanding of them now, there will never be an understanding of their impermanence, let alone of thought processes. > > > Metta > > Sarah > <..> FABIAN: I also don't think we should be concerned about the understanding of thought processes in fine details. I concern on how could insight develop, if we practice to understand realities in the wrong way? How could understanding (lead to insight) develop, if practice in wrong way? As I described above, mentally handicapped person are aware of the object of their senses, but does that fact would make them understand the realities? Suppose you see a can of cocacola put in front of you, an you see it over and over again, does the can would show impermanence considering no one touch it? Certainly not, if no one disturb the can. Would our mental show impermanence while seeing the cocacola can? Certainly. That's why we have to be aware of our mental and physical activities to develop understanding and insight. To put it briefly, - we should be aware of the activity of hearing, not the object of hearing - we should be aware of the activity of seeing, not the object of seeing - we should be aware of the activity of touching, not the object of touching - we should be aware of the activity of smelling, not the object of smelling - we should be aware of the activity of tasting, not the object of tasting - we should be aware of the activity of thinking, not the object of thinking Mettacittena, fabian #109679 From: "philip" Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:45 pm Subject: Re: Han is fine... philofillet Hi Sarah and all Happy news! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > I just heard from Han. He's back at home, very weak with stiches and needs help to move around, but says he will be OK. #109680 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:26 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Suicide DN16 Ud8.9 truth_aerator Dear Robert, all, > yes, but I think also it was his accumulations to die in such a >way, >not really a 'choice' that he would weigh up. > robert We can say same thing about suicide. It happened due to accumulations of causes and conditioned that caused him to end His life. ex: The Buddha renouncing his will to live, Dabba Mallaputta cremating himself and so on. Again if there are never any control, then a person can't trully avoid what is bound to happen, such as suicide. There isn't ever a choice either. No matter how you spin it, strait reading of the suttas do show that Dabba Mallaputta commited what would now be called "suicide". Buddha also didn't blame suicide if it was as an Arahant (MN144), so there is nothing strange. Maybe its a western cultural thing to look down upon suicide and try to rebuke Aryans doing it. With metta, Alex #109681 From: Kevin F Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Suicide DN16 Ud8.9 farrellkevin80 Dear Robert, Robert: Dear Kevin yes, but I think also it was his accumulations to die in such a way, not really a 'choice' that he would weigh up. robert Kevin: Yes nama is always influenced by accumulations. It can be no other way (except for nibbana). Whether one is Arahant or putthujana, human or otherwise, past, present, or future, whenever there is nama it functions through accumulations. But that doesn't mean He didn't way it up. Whenever you decide to do something, you way things up, conventionally speaking. If you buy a jeep or a car, you must make a decision, of course, the choice doesn't belong to a being, and it is simply conditioned nama that pull in whatever direction the nama thnks is best, based on many conditions. But, nevertheless, it conventionally appears as if a choice is made, and a choice is, a conditioned "choice". It is no different for Arahants. So do you think that he was going to die that day no matter what and decided to burn up the sense bases just to coincide with that? Kevin ___________ #109682 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:30 pm Subject: Re: should one try one's best? epsteinrob Hi Lukas, Alex and All. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > > > > > Are you saying that cittas and cetasikas responcible for decision >cannot arise? Are you saying that there is no cetana cetasika? > > > > > > L: Of course they can arise. But we dont know when. > > > > A: Does lacking the knowledge of when and what citta/cetasika arises refute "trying to do one's best" with whatever conditions there are? > > L: Of course not. This is not in contradiction. I think that one can do all his best ind development all kusala. > But why i remember this so rarely? See this is conditioned. > > > > L: This reminds me an old discussion with my friend. I was depresed >after meditation retreat and I was complaining that I could not >concentrate, and others on retreat can do this so easily. He >answered: "I dont know anyone in this World that can concentrate." > > > > > >Alex: IMHO those who have done something enough times before, then it will be easy to do it now. Those who find it easy to concentrate now, may have practiced it a lot and at some point did find it difficult... > > > > Accumulations & Conditions... > > L: Of course, I understand this, and that's why I try to be honest with myslf, that I dont have such accumulations for concentration. > I practiced meditation for 4 years, even long long rettreats. I was unable to concentrate. It takes me a lot of time to accept this. > > > > L: I think better is to learn in life that this is all out of >control, conditioned. > > > > Swimming is conditioned sure. If one is dropped into a lake, shouldn't one swim out of it? Or should one cross one's arms, refuse to do anything (swim) and let the conditions decide? Guess what will happen. Same with Dhamma path. > > L: A person can have no intetntion to go to another shore. Look at people who have no intention to giving up smoking. intention doesnt arise. Shall we condemn them? Or have a metta instead and learn that all intentions are not ours and out of control? > > > Just because everything is conditioned does it mean that one shouldn't "try one's best and let conditions take care of the rest"? > > L: Why not let the Dhamma works. This reminds me of the joke about the Man of God who refused to ever complain or try to change conditions. He would always say "God will provide." One time there was a terrible flood and the police came to rescue the man. He said "I don't need to be rescued - I have faith, and God will provide." The police went away and the flood waters rose to his front door. The Coast Guard came to rescue him in a boat and he said "I won't go - I have faith and God will provide." Then the waters rose up to his roof and he sat happily on the roof. A helicopter came to rescue him and he said "I don't need a helicopter. I have faith - God will provide." After this the waters rose over the roof and he drowned. When the man got to Heaven he was furious. He demanded to see God at once and said "I had faith - I did everything required of me. I never complained or tried to take action on my own, and yet you allowed me to drown. How could you betray my faith like this?" God said: "You foolish man. I sent a car, a boat and a helicopter for you, but you refused to get in!" It is the same with conditions - we may recognize that we have no control over conditions, but we can still go with right effort and right intention instead of suppressing them by refusing to accept them. When we have the feeling of volition, intention, going forward, making best effort, and wanting to practice, those *are* the natural arisings of right effort, intention and action because of conditions and accumulations. When we say "well that must be akusala because I am experiencing it" we suppress and refuse those natural arisings. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #109683 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:38 pm Subject: Re: should one try one's best? truth_aerator Dear Robert, all, > Dear Alex > despite your best intentions- some years back- not to agree with >what is said by say nina or sarah surely you can detect your current >movement towards their side. I don't want to argue for my position simply because it is my position. I like to improve my understanding. There are some things I agree with, and some (perhaps key points) I disagree with. Interesting story of Kevin. But how exactly does it relate to the question that conventionally can be phrases as: "Should one try one's best to be aware and understand the presently arisen reality?" > Intentions arise continuously - but they are almost always rooted >in lobha- and if we don't see the other factors co-arising, then >intention will be given far more importance than it deserves. Which citta arises without cetana (intention)? "Should one intend one's best to be aware and understand the presently arisen reality?" >When we try our best to ne aware what is really occuring... >We don't have to try to make dhammas, right? Dhammas are arising >ceaselessly.. they are there even now when we don't try to be aware. >And when we try to be aware it is likeley that wanting to catch the >present moment is also present. And that is lobha - it blocks >seeing. It is why the Buddha hesitated to teach- this is a subtle >path.. > robert > So intention (cetana) or will (chanda) or adhimokko, or adhitthana, or viriya, etc, to understand presently arisen reality is wrong and shouldn't be used even for stream entry? Even Buddha had chanda, so there is nothing bad about chanda itself. IMHO there are diffent kinds of will/wanting. It is one thing to want "One Million Dollars" it is quite different to want Arhatship. While former want doesn't lead to Nibbana, the latter can. Without cetana, chanda, adhimokkho, etc, for Nibbana, one will simply not exert his or her mind to understand and follow the path of least resistance, as it happened for Aeons in Samsara. With metta, Alex #109684 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:41 pm Subject: Re: should one try one's best? truth_aerator Hello RobertE, RobK2, Sarah, Jon, KenH, Sukin, all, Excellent story! I heard it too. Just replace "G-d" with conditions & accumulations and you have what I tried to say. "Man proposeth and conditions disposes." With metta, Alex ========= > This reminds me of the joke about the Man of God who refused to ever complain or try to change conditions. He would always say "God will provide." One time there was a terrible flood and the police came to rescue the man. He said "I don't need to be rescued - I have faith, and God will provide." The police went away and the flood waters rose to his front door. The Coast Guard came to rescue him in a boat and he said "I won't go - I have faith and God will provide." Then the waters rose up to his roof and he sat happily on the roof. A helicopter came to rescue him and he said "I don't need a helicopter. I have faith - God will provide." After this the waters rose over the roof and he drowned. When the man got to Heaven he was furious. He demanded to see God at once and said "I had faith - I did everything required of me. I never complained or tried to take action on my own, and yet you allowed me to drown. How could you betray my faith like this?" God said: "You foolish man. I sent a car, a boat and a helicopter for you, but you refused to get in!" > > Best, > Robert E. > > = = = = = = = = > #109685 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:48 pm Subject: Buddha's suicide truth_aerator Dear Kevin, Robert, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin F wrote: > > Dear Robert, > > Robert: Dear Kevin > yes, but I think also it was his accumulations to die in such a way, not really > a 'choice' that he would weigh up. > robert > > Kevin: Yes nama is always influenced by accumulations. It can be no other way > (except for nibbana). Whether one is Arahant or putthujana, human or otherwise, > past, present, or future, whenever there is nama it functions through > accumulations. But that doesn't mean He didn't way it up. Whenever you decide > to do something, you way things up, conventionally speaking. If you buy a jeep > or a car, you must make a decision, of course, the choice doesn't belong to a > being, and it is simply conditioned nama that pull in whatever direction the > nama thnks is best, based on many conditions. But, nevertheless, it > conventionally appears as if a choice is made, and a choice is, a conditioned > "choice". It is no different for Arahants. > > > So do you think that he was going to die that day no matter what and decided to > burn up the sense bases just to coincide with that? > > Kevin > > ___________ > With metta > Kevin > In any way the actions of Dabba Mallaputta would be called suicide. It doesn't make sense to try to wiggle out of it and call A to be not-A. Neither does it goes against Buddha's own teachings. Suicide isn't faulty if it doesn't lead to Rebirth. In the case of Dabba, Channa, Godhika, Vakkali, The Buddha - it didn't. They ended their life faultlessly. Same with the Buddha. He renounced his vital fabrications, He renounced His will to live. He could have prolonged His life or He could let it run its course. However He didn't. With metta, Alex #109686 From: Kevin F Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:00 pm Subject: Making Choices farrellkevin80 Dear group, Some people tend to think that choices aren't made, or that making them conditions more self-view to arise later. The fact is that choices ARE made, however, even though they are made, they are not made by a being or a person because all nama and rupa are anatta. If we decide to buy a jeep instead of a car, a choice, and a decision is made. Of course, it is just because of accumulations and conditions. No being makes this choice. If the jeep is decided upon, it could be because there is so much more lobha for a jeep rather than a car based on various past experiences and accumulations. It could have to do with the pricing, and aversion to buying the vehicle which is more expensive, or if one is rich it could be the opposite, maybe mana arises because one is rich (and many other cetasikas of course) and makes one feel that buying the less expensive car would be "underneath one". This may be one condition in buying the more expensive one. In any event, the "choices" are completely conditioned, they are not the province of a being or atta. Nevertheless, they are "made" by nama. This is a natural process and a must in the way things work. Choices, though they are conditioned, are always made. It is not choices or making them that condition self view. When the Buddha was a Bodhisatta, he *chose* to shave off his hair. He also chose to do it on every New and Full moon day from thereon for the rest of his life. He *chose* to wear the robes of a beggar rather than clothes of people of the world. Etc. These choices which were made were good choices that are a conditions less self-view (and no-- no being made them!). When we do unwholesome actions it conditions more self view and reaffirms the idea of a self every single time. When we go against lobha and dosa it goes against delusion as well, because they are borne of delusion. When one doesn't always constantly and subtley reinforce the idea of an individual person by wearing clothes to ones liking and ones own style, one starts to go against the idea of a self, a being. This can help condition understanding. When one goes against the unwholesome tendencies which arise because of the idea of a "self" wise choices leading to emancipation are made. When one doesn't look in the mirror, when one doesn't allow oneself to lie, and so on and so on. These all goes against the stream, and we start to see that though we don't do so many of the things we did in the past that re-affirm and the idea of a self, we realize that "we" are still here. There is still nama and rupa arising, but it is not this being, not this self, because we affirm to ourselves that there is not one by denying the unwholesomeness it wants to engage in and seeing that such is possible. We start to see that no being is here, but things still arise, sensations, pain, thoughts, and so on. It helps condition wisdom. This is why sila is one of the roots of wisdom. All sila works this way, whether it is the five precepts or the ten or the precepts of a bhikkhu. A bhikkhus precepts just does this even more. We must make choices. It is about making the wise choices that are profitable. Thinking we shouldn't is kind of like believing there is a subtle self that can somehow condition more wisdom by reaffirming to itself that there is no being by intentionally not making choices which help us grow in the path. The opposite is true for someone who engages in sila, samattha and so on. Though there is no self, since there are choices, albeit conditioned ones, we make choices which reveal to us the not-self nature of things, choices which go against the unwholesome tendencies which constantly "feed" the idea of self. Just because we make a choice not to engage in certain actions for example, doesn't mean we think there is a self! These choices are anatta. They are not made by a being or a self. Thanks, Kevin ___________ #109687 From: Kevin F Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best? farrellkevin80 Dear Robert, Robert: Intentions arise continuously - but they are almost always rooted >in lobha- and if we don't see the other factors co-arising, then >intention will be given far more importance than it deserves. Kevin: What happened there was that many moments of intention arose with dosa, which is unwholesome. Forget about the future, it doesn't exist. You cannot judge the next intention that will arise and think it will be either wholesome or unwholesome for sure. Doing so is just having aversion and doubt. With metta, Kevin ___________ #109688 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:09 pm Subject: Re: Making Choices truth_aerator Dear Kevin, (and all) I agree with you. Choice not to meditate is as much a choice as choice to meditate. Both kinds of choices can be done with or without Self view. choice or intention or decision or effort, or chanda doesn't require Self View. With metta, Alex #109689 From: Tadao Miyamoto Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Address of Khun Sujin's Foundation of? tadaomiyamot... Hi Khun Nina: I wanted to get a hold of a copy of "Abhidhamma in Daily Life", and also that of Cetasika. Unfortunately, a copy of Cetasika was not available at the Foundation, due possibly to do with its copy-right. I am planning to write a book (in Japanese), combining Dhamma with perceptual psychology and neurosciences just to convince myself of the validity of the Buddha's Teaching (from current scientific perspectives.) It may take a couple of years; but once I finish the book, I will probably seek an ordination. I cannot think of any way of spending the rest of my life other than becoming a "homeless" again. I know what you are saying now: "It's just a concept, concept, and concept." I hope that Lodewijk would stay strong. Mettaaya, tadao #109690 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:39 pm Subject: Re: should one try one's best? szmicio Hi Robert, > > L: Why not let the Dhamma works. > > This reminds me of the joke about the Man of God who refused to ever complain or try to change conditions. He would always say "God will provide." One time there was a terrible flood and the police came to rescue the man. He said "I don't need to be rescued - I have faith, and God will provide." The police went away and the flood waters rose to his front door. The Coast Guard came to rescue him in a boat and he said "I won't go - I have faith and God will provide." Then the waters rose up to his roof and he sat happily on the roof. A helicopter came to rescue him and he said "I don't need a helicopter. I have faith - God will provide." After this the waters rose over the roof and he drowned. When the man got to Heaven he was furious. He demanded to see God at once and said "I had faith - I did everything required of me. I never complained or tried to take action on my own, and yet you allowed me to drown. How could you betray my faith like this?" God said: "You foolish man. I sent a car, a boat and a helicopter for you, but you refused to get in!" L: This is actually not a joke, but catholic parable. I,ve heard it long ago at the church when I was kid. I learned a lot from this parable. Very wise. Best wishes Lukas #109691 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:39 pm Subject: Re: should one try one's best? kenhowardau Hi Robert Ep, ------------ <. . .> RE: > God said: "You foolish man. I sent a car, a boat and a helicopter for you, but you refused to get in!" > It is the same with conditions - we may recognize that we have no control over conditions, but we can still go with right effort and right intention instead of suppressing them by refusing to accept them. ------------- In the philosophy of the man in your joke there were only two options. There was the option of a permanent self that could get into a rescue vehicle and there was the option of a permanent self that could refuse to get into a rescue vehicle. He couldn't see a middle way. (Very few people can.) ----------------------- RE: > When we have the feeling of volition, intention, going forward, making best effort, and wanting to practice, those *are* the natural arisings of right effort, intention and action because of conditions and accumulations. ---------------------- That's what the man in your joke would have said. ------------------------- RE: > When we say "well that must be akusala because I am experiencing it" we suppress and refuse those natural arisings. ------------------------- What if, instead of those two ways, we had right understanding of the present paramattha reality? That's the middle-way option that people at DSG are trying to show you, Robert. Get in the boat! :-) Ken H #109692 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:07 pm Subject: Re: should one try one's best? truth_aerator Hello KenH, and how would a man with right understanding behave in when being dropped into a sea? Would he try to swim to safety, swim to the raft, to the boat or be rescued by a helicopter? With metta, Alex #109693 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:26 pm Subject: Re: should one try one's best? kenhowardau Hi Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello KenH, > > and how would a man with right understanding behave in when being dropped into a sea? > > Would he try to swim to safety, swim to the raft, to the boat or be rescued by a helicopter? > ------------- The man, the sea and the helicopter are all just stories invented by parmattha dhammas. Since there is no control over paramattha dhammas, there is no way of telling how the stories will evolve. But evolve they will! Until someone finally puts an end to ignorance (of paramattha dhammas) the stories will go on and on and on. Ken H #109694 From: "philip" Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 1:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Address of Khun Sujin's Foundation of? philofillet Hello Tadao. Nice to meet you. > I am planning to write a book (in Japanese), combining Dhamma with perceptual > psychology and neurosciences > just to convince myself of the validity of the Buddha's Teaching (from current > scientific perspectives.) This is something I've been wondering about. I read a fascinating book on the way the brain works this summer, and it is kind of interfering with my belief in some aspects of the Buddha's teaching, especially Abhidhamma. How can we believe in the 17 fleeting moments of perception of an arisen object when the science of neurology tells us that this is not the way it happens? Do we deny the science, say "I'm not so interested in science" and pass it off as a competing religion rather than a defining truth, or do we accept that the Buddha's teaching of reality is in itself a brilliant fabrication (and I don't mean that in the pejorative sense, I mean it in the Dhamma sense of the word), a fabricated, conceptual lay out that, if accepted as a deep model of reality, can help the mind develop towards liberation. (I think the word is "soteriological" or something like that.) Anyways, these days I am focussing on conventional aspects of sila, so this sort of question doesn't deeply concern me, but someday it might and I look forward to reading your book. It seems your English is very fluent, but I am actually qualified as a Japanese to English translator, so if you would like to translate some chapters as you go, maybe I could help with that, or just polishing the English. In any case, please feel free to contact me. (I might not see your message on the list, because I come and go, so please contact me directly.) And if you happen to still live in Japan, I would be very happy to meet a Theravadan Buddhist to discuss Dhamma. (I live in Tokyo.) Metta, Phil #109695 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 1:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Address of Khun Sujin's Foundation of? truth_aerator Hello Phil, >This is something I've been wondering about. I read a fascinating >book >on the way the brain works this summer, and it is kind of >interfering >with my belief in some aspects of the Buddha's >teaching, especially >Abhidhamma. How can we believe in the 17 >fleeting moments of >perception of an arisen object when the science >of neurology tells us >that this is not the way it happens? Do we >deny the science, Can you please expand on what exactly you find difficult to reconcile? If I remember correctly, science states that 20 million billion calculations per second or more of processes happen every second. So extreme momentariness is there. It is possible that even more happens and science can't compute it yet. With metta, Alex #109696 From: Tadao Miyamoto Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 2:16 am Subject: A question about alms-gathering in Bangkok tadaomiyamot... Dear DSG members: Every morning, while I'm staying in Bangkok, I visit a temple (nearby my hotel at Siam Square) for offering alms. Instead of going out, the abbot and several monks/novices receive alms from visiting lay-followers inside the temple-complex. However, on my way back to the hotel, I saw a monk accepting alms from venders on the street together with cash. (I suspect that the monk does not belong to the temple.) When I was a monk, I've never encountered any lay-person offering me cash during my alms-gathering. I am wondering if it is common nowadays to hand cash to a monk while he is collecting alms in the morning. Could anyone give me an answer? tadao #109697 From: "philip" Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 3:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Address of Khun Sujin's Foundation of? philofillet Hi Alex Yes, I see what you mean. But there were some specific points in the book that I can't go into now, as usual! As usual I'm dealing with things at a very conceptual level, and although I have raised the issue and look forward to reading Tadao's book, it is not something I need to discuss now. As always, you provide a model of a lay follower who is ready and willing to plunge much deeper into the Dhamma than I can, and is more ambitious, and I thank you for that. I will subtract myself now... Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello Phil, > > >This is something I've been wondering about. I read a fascinating >book >on the way the brain works this summer, and it is kind of >interfering >with my belief in some aspects of the Buddha's >teaching, especially >Abhidhamma. How can we believe in the 17 >fleeting moments of >perception of an arisen object when the science >of neurology tells us >that this is not the way it happens? Do we >deny the science, > > Can you please expand on what exactly you find difficult to reconcile? > > > If I remember correctly, science states that 20 million billion calculations per second or more of processes happen every second. So extreme momentariness is there. It is possible that even more happens and science can't compute it yet. > > > With metta, > > Alex > #109698 From: "Graham" Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 5:40 am Subject: Temples in Thailand/Books grahamarussell Dear all, I would just like to say a big thank you to everyone who as offered help and advice. With metta, Graham #109699 From: "bhikkhu3" Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 7:11 am Subject: Not Resisting... bhikkhu5 Friends: Imperturbable is one not Opposing any Pain! The Blessed Buddha once said to some deadly sick bhikkhus: Any Bhikkhu should await his time aware and clearly comprehending... This is our instruction to you! While a bhikkhu lives in this way, aware and clearly comprehending, enthusiastic, keen, and determined, if there arises in him a painful feeling, then he understands this: "There has arisen in me this painful feeling. Now that is dependent, not independent! Dependent on what? Dependent on just this contact! But this contact is impermanent, conditioned, and dependently arisen... So when a painful feeling has arisen in dependence on a contact that is impermanent, conditioned, & dependently arisen, how could it ever then itself be permanent?" He dwells in this way always contemplating the impermanence of any contact and the transience of any painful feeling, and he considers thus the inevitable vanishing, fading away, ceasing, & the therefore necessary relinquishment of all conditioned constructions! In this very way is his latent tendency to aversion towards any painful contact & instinctive repulsion of any painful feeling gradually eliminated. He therefore then understands: With the breakup of this body, at the exhaustion of this fragile life, any feeling, all that is felt, neither being opposed, nor clung to, will cool down right there... More on systematic relinquishment: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Free_from_Fear.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Leaving_All_Behind.htm Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [214] section 36: feeling. Vedana. The Sick-Ward. 8. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Relinquishing the Pain... #109700 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 7:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A question about alms-gathering in Bangkok nilovg Dear Tadao, Op 1-sep-2010, om 4:16 heeft Tadao Miyamoto het volgende geschreven: > When I was a monk, I've never encountered any lay-person offering > me cash during > my alms-gathering. > > I am wondering if it is common nowadays to hand cash to a monk > while he is > collecting alms in the morning. > > Could anyone give me an answer? ------ N: It is not correct, neither in former times nor now. Kh Sujin says we should help the monks and never give money. They may have a lay helper and he can handle money if necessary. bUt anyway, then the cash does not belong to the individual monk, but to the Sangha. Nina. #109701 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 7:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Address of Khun Sujin's Foundation of? nilovg Dear Tadao, Op 31-aug-2010, om 16:50 heeft Tadao Miyamoto het volgende geschreven: > I wanted to get a hold of a copy of "Abhidhamma in Daily Life", and > also that > of Cetasika. > Unfortunately, a copy of Cetasika was not available at the > Foundation, due > possibly to do with its copy-right. ------- N: They are out of print, but I look if I still have an old copy of A.D.L. Maybe not the latest print. I am in contact with Alan Weller and we consider what should be reprinted first. On his web (Zolag) he has the latest edition of A.D.L. No trouble with copyright, he just added something to make things easy for others, especially after my death people may have trouble. -------- > > T: I am planning to write a book (in Japanese), combining Dhamma > with perceptual > psychology and neurosciences > just to convince myself of the validity of the Buddha's Teaching > (from current > scientific perspectives.) ------- N: I am inclined to separate the two, because I find the aims very different. Science is not leading to detachment, and the Dhamma is. Science does not help us to see citta as 'just a reality'. Science is thinking of concepts all the time. What about the present reality, such as seeing now? -------- > > T: It may take a couple of years; but once I finish the book, I > will probably seek > an ordination. > I cannot think of any way of spending the rest of my life other > than becoming a > "homeless" again. > > I know what you are saying now: "It's just a concept, concept, and > concept." ---------- N: No, I do not say that. I think you act according to your accumulations, and you could help other monks. You have a good foundation knowledge of the Dhamma. You listened a lot to Kh Sujin before. The trouble is: finding a good place where the Vinaya is observed. Remember how much trouble the late Phra Dhammadaro had. ------- > > T: I hope that Lodewijk would stay strong. ------ N: Thank you, at the moment his health is not so bad. Nice talking to you, Nina. #109702 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 7:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: q. nilovg Dear Fabian, Sarah will answer but she is in Kreang Kacan now. Op 31-aug-2010, om 17:01 heeft chandrafabian het volgende geschreven: > To put it briefly, > - we should be aware of the activity of hearing, not the object of > hearing > - we should be aware of the activity of seeing, not the object of > seeing > - we should be aware of the activity of touching, not the object of > touching > - we should be aware of the activity of smelling, not the object of > smelling > - we should be aware of the activity of tasting, not the object of > tasting ------- N: The object of hearing is sound, a ruupa. Why exclude ruupas, we should be aware of both naama and ruupa when they appear one at a time. Otherwise we never would know the difference: naama experiences something and ruupa does not know anything. Nina. #109703 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 7:58 am Subject: Abhidhamma Series, no 27. The Seven Books of the Abhidhamma (part 4) nilovg Dear friends, no 27. The Seven Books of the Abhidhamma (part 4) The fourth book of the Abhidhamma is the Puggala pa~n~natti (Translated as ?A Designation of Human Types?). This book deals with the cittas and the different accumulated tendencies of individuals. Some people are easily inclined to anger, whereas others are full of mettaa. We read about an angry person: ?What sort of person is angry? What then is anger? That which is anger, and the state of being angry, hatred, hating, hatefulness, malice, the act of being malicious, maliciousness, hostility, enmity, rudeness, abruptness, resentment of heart-this is called anger. He who has not got rid of this anger is said to be an angry person.? In this definition we read about the ?state of being angry?, and this teaches us that anger is not a person, that it is a dhamma which is conditioned. We think of an angry person, but anger, after it has arisen, is gone completely, it does not last. The contents of this book is the evil and good qualities of individuals, but actually these are cetasikas, mental factors arising because of conditions. Thus, we are constantly reminded that these are not persons, they are impermanent and not self. We read (II, 17) about a person who is guarded as to the ?sense- doors?. There is no person who is guarding the sense-doors, but the realities of sati and pa~n~naa. When there is mindfulness and understanding of visible object appearing through the eye-door, of sound appearing through the ear-door, of the other sense objects appearing through the other sense-doors, one is not enslaved by these objects but one learns to see these realities as they are: impermanent and non-self. At such moments there is no opportunity for akusala cittas rooted in lobha, dosa and moha. Some persons are able to attain jhaana, others do not. We read (1, 30): ?Which is the person who is twice-liberated (ubhatobhaaga- vimutta)? It is one who, in his own person, has attained to the eight liberations (jhaanas), and through wise penetration his taints (aasavas) have come to extinction.? (1, 31) ?Which is the person who is liberated by wisdom (pa~n~naa- vimutta)? It is one who has not attained, in his own person, to the eight liberations, but through wise penetration his taints have come to extinction.? When we read about the attainments of different individuals we should not forget that these are citta and cetasikas that have developed pa~n~naa. ******* Nina. #109704 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 10:54 am Subject: Re: notes from Bangkok with A.Sujin 3b ptaus1 Dear Sarah, Thanks for discussing these: > 7. Ekaggata and Passaddhi manifestations in Vism, Pt #97243 > Can you check the Pali for "peace" as given as the manifestation of ekaggata and"coolness" as the manifestation of passaddhi? In any case, peace is the opposite of restlessnes. There's no "coolness" in the Pali or Thai! > > Also, Pt #100082 on degrees of alobha and adosa - more obvious in metta, dana etc, more subtle at other times. Yes, different levels. The Vsm passage for peace: 1. I think this is the related Pali bit: Vsm, book 2, chapter 14: 463. A-ramman.e cittam. samam. a-dhiyati, samma- va- a-dhiyati, sama-dha-namattameva va- etam. cittassa-ti sama-dhi. So avisa-ralakkhan.o, avikkhepalakkhan.o va-, sahaja-ta-nam. sampin.d.anaraso nha-niyacun.n.a-nam. udakam. viya, upasamapaccupat.t.ha-no, visesato sukhapadat.t.ha-no, niva-te di-pacci-nam. t.hiti viya cetaso t.hiti-ti dat.t.habbo. 2. Nanamoli translation: 139. (viii) It puts (a-dhiyati) consciousness evenly (samam.) on the object, or it puts it rightly (samma-) on it, or it is just the mere collecting (sama-dha-na) of the mind, thus it is concentration (sama-dhi). Its characteristic is non-wandering, or its characteristic is non-distraction. Its function is to conglomerate conascent states as water does bath powder. It is manifested as peace. Usually its proximate cause is bliss. It should be regarded as steadiness of the mind, like the steadiness of a lamp's flame when there is no draught. 3. In Pe Maung Tin translation, XIV, page 543, the related bit is: "...and peace of mind as manifestation." The Vsm passage for coolness: 4. I think this is the related Pali excerpt: Vsm, book 2, chapter 14: 470. Ka-yassa passambhanam. ka-yapassaddhi. Cittassa passambhanam. cittapassaddhi. Ka-yoti cettha vedana-dayo tayo khandha-. Ubhopi paneta- ekato katva- ka-yacittadarathavu-pasamalakkhan.a- ka-yacittapassaddhiyo, ka-yacittadarathanimaddanarasa-, ka-yacitta-nam. aparipphandanasi-tibha-vapaccupat.t.ha-na-, ka-yacittapadat.t.ha-na-. Ka-yacitta-nam. avu-pasamakarauddhacca-dikilesapat.ipakkhabhu-ta-ti dat.t.habba-. 5. Nanamoli translation: XIV,144. (xvi)-(xvii) The tranquillizing of the body is tranquillity of the body. The tranquillizing of consciousness is tranquillity of consciousness. And here body means the three [mental] aggregates, feeling, [perception and formations] (see Dhs. 40). But both tranquillity of that body and of consciousness have, together, the characteristic of quieting disturbance of that body and of consciousness. Their function is to crush disturbance of the [mental] body and of consciousness. They are manifested as inactivity and coolness of the [mental] body and of consciousness. Their proximate cause is the [mental] body and consciousness. They should be regarded as opposed to the defilements of agitation, etc., which cause unpeacefulness in the [mental] body and in consciousness. 6. In Pe Maung Tin translation, XIV, pg 544, the related bit is: ...the manifestation of an unwavering and cool state of both... Best wishes pt #109705 From: "philip" Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 1:39 pm Subject: JC from Dhammawheel has died... philofillet Very sorry to hear that one of the moderators from Dhammawheel, who unless I am mistaken visited DSG briefly under the moniker JC, has died following a brain hemmorage. This morning I was studying a Dhammapada verse that warns us to prepare provisions for the "journey to the next world." (And Buddhagosa's commentary supports that concept, as surprising as it may be to some.) I didn't know him, but I imagine he prepared some excellent provisions through his enthusiasm for Dhamma. It is exceptionaly rare to be born in the human realm with sensitivity to the Buddha's teaching and clearly he didn't waste that rare opportunity. Metta, Phil #109706 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 2:29 pm Subject: What I heard. nilovg Dear friends, (from an India tape, continued). Thinking about realities and awareness. Acharn: There is a difference between thinking about realities, even if you use no name, and awareness. Understanding is different from not understanding. It is of no use to think whether one has awareness or not. The moment when awareness arises should really be known. The characteristic which is very natural like now is the object of awareness. It does not pass with forgetfulness such as when there is thinking about it, like usual. Right now visible object is appearing and it arises and falls away without there being awareness of it. This usually happens. We think about people and things as soon as there is seeing. But when there is the understanding of visible object as ?just a reality? then one begins to have right thinking about it. When understanding begins there is no attachment to the sign (nimitta) and the details (vya~ncana), There can be a very short moment of understanding that it is just a reality which is now appearing. This is the condition for higher understanding with awareness. But it has to begin from even just thinking and later on there will not only be thinking about it. Even right now at the moment of seeing understanding can grow. One knows that it is not a matter of merely wanting to have more and more awareness; there can be more and more understanding. The development of satipa.t.thaana can condition right understanding of realities with sati that is aware. It is not enough to merely think without awareness that it is a reality which is now appearing. One can see that the growth of sati and pa~n~naa is very gradual. There can be unwholesome thinking and that also is condiitoned, it is non-self. One knows that there must be higher understanding rather than thinking. --------- Nina. #109707 From: Ken O Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 2:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Suicide DN16 Ud8.9 ashkenn2k Dear Kevin Kevin: So Ken, you are admitting that an Arahant can take his life, like in the >case of Venerabe Dabba, but you are saying that it is not technically killing. >Is that correct? As I said earlier, Arahant and even non-returner can never kill themselves because there is no dosa cetasika.? Ken O #109708 From: "lawstu_uk" Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 2:55 pm Subject: Pali font help -- firefox lawstu_uk Hi all, I am an idiot when it comes to computer.. Recently I have been copied and pasted Survey from http://www.abhidhamma.org/Para2.htm and http://www.zolag.co.uk/downloads/survey_of_p_dhamma02.htm But Sankhara becomes Saòkhåra ... I tried to read Zolag's 'Pali fonts' and now I am convinced I am indeed an idiot. So I am wondering if anyone can help me with this :-) I am using Firefox 3.6.8 (A friend already downloaded stuff needed for windowns doc file.... but I am just curious how I can read the correct Pali font on the webpage) I also tried to select different Unicode but it doesn't work. Any input would be much appreciated! Andrew #109709 From: Ken O Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 3:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddha's suicide ashkenn2k Dear Alex > >When Buddha stopped his vital formations, fully knowing that PariNibbana would >occur in 3 month, what do you think this action was? KO:? Buddha's lifespan is determined by the his asking and reply from?of Ven Ananda.? the context must be clear.? However he knows exactly when he will PariNibbana basing on this incident with Ven Ananda. > >Lets say a person pulls out fish from the water into dry land. In few minutes >the fish will die from suffocation. Is this act considering to be killing, or >terminating life? Sure. > KO: that got nothing to do with Arahant supcide and your example is about?ordinarily people > >Lets say a person depends on life-support to live and cannot live without it. >Lets say He, being fully aware when his life will end due to going off >life-support, personally switches off life support causing death in near future. > >How isn't this act a protracted Suicide? > KO:? that is sucide because the person still has dosa cetasika > >Of course. The Buddha did, ven. Dabba did... > >Buddha: "Such indeed is how the steadfast act: They are not in love with life." >- SN4. 23 (3) Godhika Ven. BB Trans. > KO:? this statement got nothing to do with our discussion, dont take sutta quotes out of context Ken O #109710 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 3:14 pm Subject: Re: Buddha's suicide DN16 truth_aerator Dear KenO, all, >A: When Buddha stopped his vital formations, fully knowing that >PariNibbana would occur in 3 month, what do you think this action >was? > > KO:? Buddha's lifespan is determined by the his asking and reply >from?of Ven Ananda.? the context must be clear.? However he knows >exactly when he will PariNibbana basing on this incident with Ven >Ananda. Whatever determines Buddha's lifespan, there are 3 options: Buddha could have: a) lived his natural lifespan. b) prolong it. c) shorten it. What did Buddha do in DN16? And how wasn't what Dabba Mallaputta, an Arahant, a suicide? Judging by the actions (stopping life) it was. With metta, Alex #109711 From: Kevin F Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 3:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A question about alms-gathering in Bangkok farrellkevin80 Dear Nina, Nina: It is not correct, neither in former times nor now. Kh Sujin says we should help the monks and never give money. They may have a lay helper and he can handle money if necessary. bUt anyway, then the cash does not belong to the individual monk, but to the Sangha. Nina. Nina: That is a great point Nina. I feel that way myself and there has been much written in support of that. That is the way I lived when I was a monk briefly-- a layperson could hold funds for the monk donated by others and use them to purchase things the monk may need, such as a ticket and so on. But I am reading more now and I am started to doubt the validity of that. I think it may have only been intended specifically for robes and nothing else. But I have to research more. Sorry to bring something up so soon without knowing more about it first. Kevin ___________ #109712 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 3:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Suicide DN16 Ud8.9 truth_aerator Dear KenO, Arahants never kill them"selves" precisely because they have no perception of Self (or a being) to kill. So if I understand it correctly, it is not even a full course of action since perception & intention to kill a BEING is not present. With metta, Alex #109713 From: Ken O Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 3:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best? ashkenn2k Dear Rob E > >It is the same with conditions - we may recognize that we have no control over >conditions, but we can still go with right effort and right intention instead of > >suppressing them by refusing to accept them. When we have the feeling of >volition, intention, going forward, making best effort, and wanting to practice, > >those *are* the natural arisings of right effort, intention and action because >of conditions and accumulations. When we say "well that must be akusala because >I am experiencing it" we suppress and refuse those natural arisings. > KO:? I like what you said.? there are dhammas for effort, will, chanda.? they arise with kusala and akusala.? Not all will actions are akusala just because we intent to do it.?? ten months ago, I may have agreed with them but now it is different.? If it is not a purposely or deliberate effort, why bother to come to email to discuss and to read suttas where we have other choices.? The standard answer will be accumualations,? If accumulations are the cause, then a?thief will always be a?thief because he has accumulations for such things.? then again, the answer will be accumulations.?? So if?our actions are based on accumulations, then there is no salvation as accumulations is based on past actions, this mean past action will determine future actions Ken O #109714 From: Ken O Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 3:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddha's suicide DN16 ashkenn2k Dear Alex >Whatever determines Buddha's lifespan, there are 3 options: > >Buddha could have: >a) lived his natural lifespan. >b) prolong it. >c) shorten it. > >What did Buddha do in DN16? KO:? remember Ven Ananda is key to either he live his natural lifepan or three months.? He did not kill himself by his own choice.? ?So read the sutta as a whole and honestly, I felt you should?stop extracting sutta out of context to support your reasoning.? Kne O #109715 From: Ken O Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 3:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Suicide DN16 Ud8.9 ashkenn2k Dear Alex > >Arahants never kill them"selves" precisely because they have no perception of >Self (or a being) to kill. So if I understand it correctly, it is not even a >full course of action since perception & intention to kill a BEING is not >present. > >With metta, > >Alex > KO:? to be precise, an Arahant cannot never?end the life cetasika of any citta.? Ken O #109716 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 4:01 pm Subject: Re: Pali font help -- firefox ptaus1 Hi Andrew, I think fonts on those two sites are not Unicode but old ASCII fonts. Try the Survey on scribd: http://www.scribd.com/doc/3945086/A-Survey-of-Paramattha-Dhammas Best wishes pt > Recently I have been copied and pasted Survey from http://www.abhidhamma.org/Para2.htm > and > http://www.zolag.co.uk/downloads/survey_of_p_dhamma02.htm > > But Sankhara becomes Saòkhåra ... #109717 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 4:02 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddha's suicide DN16 truth_aerator >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > > > >Whatever determines Buddha's lifespan, there are 3 options: > > > >Buddha could have: > >a) lived his natural lifespan. > >b) prolong it. > >c) shorten it. > > > >What did Buddha do in DN16? > > KO:? remember Ven Ananda is key to either he live his natural lifepan or three > months.? He did not kill himself by his own choice.? ?So read the sutta as a > whole and honestly, I felt you should?stop extracting sutta out of context to > support your reasoning.? > > > > > Kne O > Dear KenO, After Ven. Ananda didn't get the hint and didn't beg Buddha to live, what did the BUDDHA do in DN16? Part Three: Relinquishing the Will to Live "10. And at the Capala shrine the Blessed One thus mindfully and clearly comprehending renounced his will to live on." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html#fnt-26 It is similar to a person personally switching off life-support necessary for continuation of the life. With metta, Alex #109718 From: "connie" Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 4:12 pm Subject: Sangiitisutta 327, 6.18-19 nichiconn Dear Friends, 327 = 6.18 (anuttariyaani) and 6.19 (anussati.t.thaanaani): CSCD 327. <>ti. Dassanaanuttariya.m naama anuttaraphalavisesaavahattaa. Esa nayo sesesupi. Sattavidhaariyadhanalaabhoti sattavidhasaddhaadilokuttaradhanalaabho. Sikkhattayapuura.nanti adhisiilasikkhaadiina.m tissanna.m sikkhaana.m paripuura.na.m. Tattha paripuura.na.m nippariyaayato asekkhaana.m vasena veditabba.m. Kalyaa.naputhujjanato pa.t.thaaya hi satta sekkhaa tisso sikkhaa puurenti naama, arahaa pana paripu.n.nasikkhoti. Iti imaani anuttariyaani lokiyalokuttaraani kathitaani. Anussatiyoeva di.t.thadhammikasamparaayikaadihitasukhaana.m kaara.nabhaavato .thaanaaniiti anussati.t.thaanaani. Eva.m anussaratoti yathaa buddhaanussati visesaadhigamassa .thaana.m hoti, eva.m <>tiaadinaa (dii. ni. 1.157, 255) buddhagu.ne anussarantassa. Upacaarakamma.t.thaananti paccakkhato upacaarajjhaanaavaha.m kamma.t.thaana.m, paramparaaya pana yaava arahattaa lokiyalokuttaravisesaavaha.m. ==== to be continued, connie #109719 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 4:14 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: q. chandrafabian Dear Nina, As far as I know the object of hearing and other senses is not important, because when we experience something through any of our senses, attachment tend to arise to trick us away from being mindful, therefore we should not try to see the object of our senses, but emphasize the awareness on the mental activity of hearing, seeing etc. When an object comes to our senses. Knowing the objects would come automatically. Like the simile of electrical current, even if we don't like the current shock, but we would get electric shock anyway if we make contact with the current. To see the object of the senses is like making contact with electrical current. Aware of mental and physical activity through six senses, would lead to the stopping of the six senses, the stopping of the six senses would lead to the stopping of mental and physical phenomena. The stopping of mental and physical phenomena would lead to the stopping of consciousness of mental and physical phenomena etc... According to Paticcasamuppada. If awareness becomes so strong, do we need to know this is nama which experience something and this is rupa which does not know anything? In my opinion the ability to see this is nama and that is rupa would come automatically when our mindfulness keen enough. But if we try to see and differentiate this is nama and that is rupa, we would fall into the trap of the mind, which manipulate us to think we are investigating (Dhammavicayo) but actually we are thinking and creating concepts. Mettacittena, fabian #109720 From: Ken O Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 4:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddha's suicide DN16 ashkenn2k Dear Alex > >After Ven. Ananda didn't get the hint and didn't beg Buddha to live, what did >the BUDDHA do in DN16? > >Part Three: Relinquishing the Will to Live > >"10. And at the Capala shrine the Blessed One thus mindfully and clearly >comprehending renounced his will to live on." >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html#fnt-26 > KO:? I thought I have said earlier, Buddha live depends on Ven Ananda.? Since Ven Ananda did not get the hint, Buddha has to follow the natural course of Buddha to declare his paranibbana in three months time.? these are laws for the Buddha. Ken O #109721 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 4:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddha's suicide DN16 truth_aerator Dear KenO, all, Ven. Ananda didn't remove Buddha's vital fabrications. Buddha did it Himself. With metta, Alex #109722 From: Ken O Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 4:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddha's suicide DN16 ashkenn2k Dear Alex there must be a cause and a conditions.? Once the condition is met, the cause will ripen just like Buddha life faculty.? He cannot change this nature of dhamma to cease because of a condition to?cause it.? No one could change it. Just like many other?disciples like Ven Sariputta, Ven Ananda or Ven Didiba Ken O #109723 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 5:19 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best? epsteinrob Hi Ken O. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Rob E > > > > > >It is the same with conditions - we may recognize that we have no control over > >conditions, but we can still go with right effort and right intention instead of > > > >suppressing them by refusing to accept them. When we have the feeling of > >volition, intention, going forward, making best effort, and wanting to practice, > > > >those *are* the natural arisings of right effort, intention and action because > >of conditions and accumulations. When we say "well that must be akusala because > > >I am experiencing it" we suppress and refuse those natural arisings. > > > > KO:? I like what you said.? there are dhammas for effort, will, chanda.? they > arise with kusala and akusala.? Not all will actions are akusala just because we > intent to do it.?? ten months ago, I may have agreed with them but now it is > different.? If it is not a purposely or deliberate effort, why bother to come to > email to discuss and to read suttas where we have other choices.? The standard > answer will be accumualations,? If accumulations are the cause, then a?thief > will always be a?thief because he has accumulations for such things.? then > again, the answer will be accumulations.?? So if?our actions are based on > accumulations, then there is no salvation as accumulations is based on past > actions, this mean past action will determine future actions You raise a very important point. Obviously we are getting influences from various arising co-dependent causes that are happening in the entire sphere of experience, not just one's own prior "personal" accumulations since they are not really personal as we are just part of the All [if I am seeing this correctly.] So we may live in a universe in which everything is caused and we have no control, but on the other hand we cannot decide that there are only certain accumulations that will influence us. We do not live in a clockwork, predetermined universe. There are multiple sets of conditions co-interacting at any given moment. As you wisely point out, and I will quote you: "there are dhammas for effort, will, chanda. they arise with kusala and akusala. Not all will actions are akusala just because we intent to do it." That was very close to my point, and I appreciate the way you put it. Since hardly anyone ever agrees with me here, I consider this a very important moment in my own progress! :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #109724 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 5:31 pm Subject: Re: should one try one's best? epsteinrob Hi Alex. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello RobertE, RobK2, Sarah, Jon, KenH, Sukin, all, > > Excellent story! I heard it too. Just replace "G-d" with conditions & accumulations and you have what I tried to say. > > "Man proposeth and conditions disposes." > > With metta, > > Alex Well I guess it's a very subtle issue. Those who are against the acknowledgment of any kind of volition or intention feel that it is akusala just to think of such a thing. Instead right view dictates that we should see every single arising condition and action as totally selfless and thus it can have no personal volition at all. This rules out any form of practice as well. My position, and I think yours too, is that the casting aside of intention and volition when it arises, is itself akusala. It is not correct or right view to choose between some arisings and others. If one says "this intention is natural but this one is akusala" one is promoting a self-view just in doing *that.* Therefore if one is going to accept everything as a result of conditions, one has to accept the arising intentions and actions that don't conform to one's limited view, ie, one must accept that the intention to practice meditation, the intention to "try harder," etc. are *also* the result of naturally arising conditions and there is no basis to reject them out of hand. I think there has to be a better basis for declaring something akusala and promoting of self-view than merely the fact that it takes the form of intention or intentional action. After all, Buddha would not have included Right Intention, Right Action, etc., in the N 8fold path if he did not consider these naturally arising elements of the path. The *better* basis for judging if something is kusala or not is whether it yields wholesome results for one's progress on the path, not whether it is in the right or wrong category in a particular view of the path. If the three poisons, self-view, hindrances, etc., seem to be magnified by a particular action or practice, it can be judged to be akusala. If wholesome and positive results come from an action or practice, it can be judged to be kusala. That is a more natural way to judge wholesome and unwholesome, rather than a stock formula. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = > ========= > > This reminds me of the joke about the Man of God who refused to ever complain or try to change conditions. He would always say "God will provide." > #109725 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 5:35 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best? epsteinrob Hi Kevin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin F wrote: > > Dear Robert, > > Robert: Intentions arise continuously - but they are almost always rooted >in > lobha- and if we don't see the other factors co-arising, then >intention will > be given far more importance than it deserves. > > Kevin: What happened there was that many moments of intention arose with dosa, > which is unwholesome. Forget about the future, it doesn't exist. You cannot > judge the next intention that will arise and think it will be either wholesome > or unwholesome for sure. Doing so is just having aversion and doubt. If I am reading what you say correctly, there seems to be an implication that intentions will arise from unknown places not related to the moment before. If this is what you are saying I disagree. One may see patterns and chains of causation, and one can see when intentions have led to akusala actions and further promotion of negative conditions. The moments pass on their accumulations and learn from the one before. Therefore one can trace whether an intention or action is good or bad. We are not as helpless as it is sometimes made out. The development of mindfulness and understanding are the keys to seeing whether something is kusala or akusala and acting accordingly. It is not a mysterious or arbitrary process with which we have no interaction. We are part of what arises and when we do our part, we are behaving as we are meant to. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #109726 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 6:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A question about alms-gathering in Bangkok nilovg Dear Kevin, Op 1-sep-2010, om 17:22 heeft Kevin F het volgende geschreven: > a layperson could hold funds for the monk donated by others and use > them to purchase things the monk may need, such as a ticket and so > on. But I am > reading more now and I am started to doubt the validity of that. I > think it may > have only been intended specifically for robes and nothing else. ------ N: It is good if you research. I do not know whether it is only for robes. Perhaps the four requisites? Nina. #109727 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 6:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali font help -- firefox nilovg Dear Andrew, Alan also has on his web, on Pali fonts, the PCharter one can load down. I am always using PCharter, and perhaps this may help. Nina. Op 1-sep-2010, om 16:55 heeft lawstu_uk het volgende geschreven: > I tried to read Zolag's 'Pali fonts' and now I am convinced I am > indeed an idiot. > > So I am wondering if anyone can help me with this :-) #109728 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 7:02 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddha's suicide DN16 truth_aerator Dear KenO, conditionality doesn't change the fact of action as it occured. Deliberately shortening one's life by renouncing vital fabrications is suicide, just like deliberately cutting off one's life support fully knowing that it will result in death. With metta, Alex #109730 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 4:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Kevin) - In a message dated 9/1/2010 1:35:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Kevin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin F wrote: > > Dear Robert, > > Robert: Intentions arise continuously - but they are almost always rooted >in > lobha- and if we don't see the other factors co-arising, then >intention will > be given far more importance than it deserves. > > Kevin: What happened there was that many moments of intention arose with dosa, > which is unwholesome. Forget about the future, it doesn't exist. You cannot > judge the next intention that will arise and think it will be either wholesome > or unwholesome for sure. Doing so is just having aversion and doubt. If I am reading what you say correctly, there seems to be an implication that intentions will arise from unknown places not related to the moment before. If this is what you are saying I disagree. One may see patterns and chains of causation, and one can see when intentions have led to akusala actions and further promotion of negative conditions. The moments pass on their accumulations and learn from the one before. Therefore one can trace whether an intention or action is good or bad. We are not as helpless as it is sometimes made out. The development of mindfulness and understanding are the keys to seeing whether something is kusala or akusala and acting accordingly. It is not a mysterious or arbitrary process with which we have no interaction. We are part of what arises and when we do our part, we are behaving as we are meant to. Best, Robert E. ================================= What you say is correct, as I see it, Robert, and I also see truth in what you are writing, Kevin. But what I've been noting today, as the day proceeds, goes a bit in a different direction from your discussions - not contradicting what you are writing about, but being somewhat orthogonal to it. The Buddha referred to persons as "puppets," or, in more modern parlance, I would suppose, "robots". And today I've been seeing matters that way. Somehow today I've fallen into an ongoing introspection that is keener and more regular than usual, and what I see is impersonal conditions arising and causing other impersonal conditions to arise. I've been seeing automatic reactions of thought, inclination, emotion, willing and actions, following one upon another in a regular, orderly, and impersonal, natural process with no agent operating any of it. I don't expect this "seeing" to last, and in fact it is somewhat diminishing already, but it has certainly been "interesting". Part of what has struck me as interesting about it is it's being calming, and the sense of it as being "freeing." In the past, "no-self experiences" have actually been frightening to me, but not this time. (A happy fact. :-) With metta, Howard P. S. For any who may find this interesting: I have discovered that cultivation of a habit of ongoing introspection, of fairly regular attending to mental events, is useful for me. Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #109731 From: "Graham" Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 12:29 pm Subject: Help Please - Dharma Books for Children grahamarussell Nina Many thanks for the advice, I'll be teaching English again. Isn't Acharn Sujin's temple in Bkk, I don#'t think we will go there so often, too much to do! I really need to sind somethinkg local, especially for the kids. Graham >N: Then you could visit Acharn Sujin on Saturday at the Foundation >(Dhamma Study and Support Foundation). That is an English session and >people there may be able to help you with books for kids. >What will you be teaching? >Nina. #109732 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Sep 2, 2010 12:15 am Subject: Re: should one try one's best? kenhowardau Hi Ken O (and Rob Ep), ---------- <. . .> KO: I like what you said. there are dhammas for effort, will, chanda. they arise with kusala and akusala. Not all will actions are akusala just because we intent to do it. ----------- All actions are intended by cetana. No actions are intended by free will. Free will is just a concept. ------------------------ KO: > ten months ago, I may have agreed with them but now it is different. ------------------------ "Them"? Are you suggesting there are people at DSG who deny that all actions are intended by cetana? Or are you suggesting there are people at DSG who deny that actions are intended by free will? If so, what would be wrong with that? I suspect that ten months ago you didn't know what you were agreeing with. Just as now you don't know what you are disagreeing with! :-) ------------------------- KO: > If it is not a purposely or deliberate effort, why bother to come to email to discuss and to read suttas where we have other choices. ------------------------- Effort is never deliberate in the sense of free-will, but it is always deliberate in the sense of being intended by cetana. With regard to "other choices" Ken, what choices does the Abhidhamma say cetana has? --------------------------------- KO: > The standard answer will be accumulations, If accumulations are the cause, then a thief will always be a thief because he has accumulations for such things. then again, the answer will be accumulations. So if our actions are based on accumulations, then there is no salvation as accumulations is based on past actions, this mean past action will determine future actions --------------------------------- Every presently arisen dhamma has arisen exactly the way the prevailing conditions have caused it to arise. And please don't tell us the conditions never change. That would be too silly. :-) Ken H #109733 From: "bhikkhu3" Date: Thu Sep 2, 2010 3:10 am Subject: Aware and Composed... bhikkhu5 Friends: Aware and Composed Dwelling: The Blessed Buddha once said: Monks, a Noble should dwell Aware and Composed? This is our instruction to you! And how does a monk dwell Aware? Herein a friend dwells contemplating any body as a void frame only; as a transient, painful and impersonal neither-me-nor-mine appearance, while alert, ballanced and deliberately aware, thereby overcoming any mental dejection of reality, arised from coveting this world? Exactly so does he dwell with regard to any feeling.. with regard to any mentality.. with regard to any phenomenon.. Only precisely so is this Noble One Acutely Aware! And how does a monk dwell Composed? Herein a friend dwells fully aware of all feelings, that arise.. fully aware of all feelings, that settles.. fully aware of all feelings, that ceases.. Such Noble One dwells fully aware of all thoughts, that arise.. fully aware of all thoughts, that remains.. fully aware of all thoughts, that stops.. Such clever one dwells fully aware of all perceptions, that arise.. fully aware of all perceptions, that persists.. fully aware of all perceptions, that ends.. Just so is this Noble One Calm, Cool and Composed! Any disciple should dwell Aware and Composed. This is our instruction to you? More Awareness (Sati ): <. . .> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Aware and Composed... #109734 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 2, 2010 9:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: q. nilovg Dear Fabian, Op 1-sep-2010, om 18:14 heeft chandrafabian het volgende geschreven: > As far as I know the object of hearing and other senses is not > important, because when we experience something through any of our > senses, attachment tend to arise to trick us away from being > mindful, therefore we should not try to see the object of our > senses, but emphasize the awareness on the mental activity of > hearing, seeing etc. When an object comes to our senses. Knowing > the objects would come automatically. ------- N: In the four Applications of mindfulness we see that both naama and ruupa are objects of mindfulness. And also: akusala arising on account of an object has to be known as it is. If akusala is not known as a conditioned naama, non-self, akusala can never be eradicated. When attachment has fallen away it can be object of mindfulness and at that very moment the citta is kusala citta. ---------- > F: Aware of mental and physical activity through six senses, would > lead to the stopping of the six senses, the stopping of the six > senses would lead to the stopping of mental and physical phenomena. > The stopping of mental and physical phenomena would lead to the > stopping of consciousness of mental and physical phenomena etc... > According to Paticcasamuppada. ------- N: Is it not the stopping of ignorance that leads to the non-arising of naama and ruupa, to the end of the cycle? There can only be less ignorance by the development of whatever reality appears because of its own conditions. We have to learn that realities are beyond control. Akusala should be comprehended, the Buddha said. ----------- > > F: If awareness becomes so strong, do we need to know this is nama > which experience something and this is rupa which does not know > anything? > In my opinion the ability to see this is nama and that is rupa > would come automatically when our mindfulness keen enough. ------- N: Mindfulness accompanies right understanding and this has to be developed. Mindfulness is always mindfulness of an object, the present reality, be it naama or ruupa. We cannot select the objects of mindfulness. It depends on conditions of what object sati will be aware. Nobody can tell ahead of time, nobody can direct sati. Understanding develops in being mindful of both naama and ruupa. Knowing their difference would not come automatically. --------- > > F: But if we try to see and differentiate this is nama and that is > rupa, we would fall into the trap of the mind, which manipulate us > to think we are investigating (Dhammavicayo) but actually we are > thinking and creating concepts. -------- N: The first stage of tender insight is not thinking this is naama and that is ruupa. We do not 'try' to differentiate them. When listening and considering the Dhamma there are conditions for the growth of understanding. Understanding naama and ruupa as conditioned realities. Pa~n~naa will do its task, so long as there is no idea of 'we can do it', because that is interfering with the work of pa~n~naa. ---------- Nina. #109735 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 2, 2010 8:46 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiitisutta 327, 6.18-19 and commentary. nilovg Dear friends, Walshe DN 33.2.2(18) 'Six unsurpassed things (anuttariyaani): *1104 [certain] sights, things heard, gains, trainings, forms of service (paricaariyaanuttariya'm), objects of recollection. --------- N: The Co adds to anuttara, unsurpassed, the term je.t.thaka, the best. The Tiika elaborates: eminent, there is nothing higher, it is infinite (ananta). Co: Seeing the Jewels of Elephant and so on, is not unsurpassed in seeing. N: The Jewels of a World Monarch are: the Wheel, the elephant, the horse, the gem, the woman, the treasurer and the adviser. The Co explains that the seeing of him of the Ten Powers (the Buddha), the Order of monks, the beautiful sign of the kasinas and so on, or another object, is, because of strong devotion and confidence, the unsurpassed seeing. Tiika: the highest seeing brings incomparable fruits. Co: Hearing praise of the good qualities of the Khattiyas (warriors, the highest clan) is not the unsurpassed hearing, but hearing words of praise of the good qualities of the Triple Gem, or hearing the words of the Buddha as contained in the Tipi.taka, is, because of strong devotion and confidence, the unsurpassed hearing. Acquirement of jewels is not the unsurpassed acquirement, but the acquirement of the ariyan wealth is the best of acquirements. The Tiika explains: the sevenfold supramundane wealth of saddhaa, confidence, etc is the unsurpassed acquirement. N: the sevenfold ariyan wealth is: confidence, siila, hiri (shame of akusala), ottappa (fear of blame), suta (learning), caaga (relinquishment), pa~n~naa. The Co. explains that the training in elephant?s craft is not the unsurpassed training, but the accomplishment of the threefold training is the unsurpassed training. The Tiika explains that this is the training in higher siila, adhisiila, higher concentration, adhicitta, and higher pa~n~naa, adhipa~n~naa. Beginning with the eminent non-ariyan person (kalyaa.na putthujjana), there are seven learners who accomplish the three trainings, but the arahat has the training fulfilled. N: there are three pairs of ariyans who are non-arahats, counting the magga-citta and the phalacitta as a pair for each stage of enlightenment. The Tiika states that here are mentioned mundane and lokuttara unsurpassables. Co: Rendering service to the Khattyas is not the unsurpassed service, but service to the Triple Gem is the unsurpassed service. The Co. states as to recollection, anussati, that recollection of the Buddha is unsurpassed. This is the recollection of his excellent qualities. When he recollects in this way piiti, rapture, arises. When he has firm understanding of its decay and cessation, he reaches arahatship. A layman can also acquire this meditation subject leading to access concentration, and it is all in the same way (as the foregoing). The Tiika explains : establishment in recollection is the cause of happiness and wellbeing, both in this world and in the future. Recollection of the Buddha is the foundation of specific attainments for the person who recollects the excellent qualities of the Buddha. As to the qwords of the commentary: ? this meditation subject leading to access concentration?, the Tiika explains: when he realises a meditation subject leading to access concentration and jhaana, this leads to distinctive qualities that are mundane and lokuttara, and successively up to arahatship. N: He must also develop insight in order to reach enlightenment. --------- Sutta 19: As to the six recollections (of the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha, morality, renunciation, the devas), the Co. states that this has been explained in detail in the Visuddhimagga and that it should be understood in that way. ------- N: These suttas remind us of what is really important in life. Wealth as to worldly matters is meaningless compared to the ariyan wealth of confidence, siila, hiri, ottappa, suta (learning), caaga (relinquishment), pa~n~naa. Hearing the words of the Buddha as contained in the Tipi.taka is the best of hearing, because by listening there will be more understanding, and this will be a condition for the right practice leading to the direct realisation of the Truth. As to the recollection of the Buddha, by developing understanding of the present reality, such as seeing or visible object, we can recollect the Buddha?s wisdom, his compassion and his purity. Without his teachings we would not understand anything about realities, we would continue to cling to the idea of a self who sees, hears, experiences objects. We would merely know concepts of persons, of things, of the world. We are fortunate to still being able to study the Tipi.taka and consider the Buddha?s teachings. ******* Nina. #109736 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 2, 2010 8:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Help Please - Dharma Books for Children nilovg Dear Graham, Op 1-sep-2010, om 14:29 heeft Graham het volgende geschreven: > Isn't Acharn Sujin's temple in Bkk, I don#'t think we will go there > so often, too much to do! I really need to sind somethinkg local, > especially for the kids. ----- N: Yes, it is in Bgk. Once you have a chance to visit Kh Sujin, you can compare what she explains with what you hear in other temples. It is worth considering, even if you have to go out of your way. The activities are on weekends but if you want to visit Kh Sujin with the children, it may be arranged. She is very good with children, you may enjoy it. Nina. #109737 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 2, 2010 9:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Time. nilovg Dear Vince, Op 31-aug-2010, om 10:37 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > But remember also in the beginning you wrote me about make > questions is > very important, and to ask any thing. I have intact my good opinion > of the > Sujin teaching. Just I try to understand instead to repeat. ------ N: That is a good attitude, not just repeating what you hear. And good to ask any question. -------- > > V: We say there is nama, rupa and cita. However, when we say that > there is a > succesion of cittas, there is a new element which is Time. Time > exists in the > same moment of we conceive "before" and "after". ------- N: I understand your dilemma about time, when you think of the succession of cittas. > Time is a concept. We read in the Kathaavatthu Ch XV, 146 about > this with a remark by Ven. Nyanatiloka in 'The Guide through the > Abhidhamma Pi.taka: : (parinipphanna)?- those who held that erroneous view obviously did > not consider that Time is a mere concept. Only the five khandhas, > i.e. the corporeal and mental phenomena, occurring in the three > periods of time, can be said to be 'produced'>. Also the Atthasaalinii states that time is a concept. I like to quote what Sarah wrote to Fabian: SARAH :< Rather than be concerned about the understanding of thought processes and fine detail, I see more value in learning to understand realities at this moment such as seeing and visible object. If there is no understanding of them now, there will never be an understanding of their impermanence, let alone of thought processes.> -------- >> V: quotes: N: When you are thinking of time, thinking is the >> present moment. It seems to last, but in fact there are many >> cittas thinking, arising in >> succession. But we should not try to know what is still beyond our >> understanding. > > V: this is not about previous lives or the end of the universe. The > only way to > know if something is still beyond our understanding is trying to > understand it. > Time is conceived among dhammas and the self; I don't see it is > beyond our > understanding. Why do you says this? ------ N: Because realising arising and falling away of realities is the third stage of tender insight and more precise understanding of impermanence is the first stage of Principal insight. When it is the right time pa~n~naa will know. When cittas with insight arise, there are several moments of them. They can realise the arising and falling away of realities. But we do not count cittas, nor think of speed. -------- > > V: However, in the present moment, > it seems the understanding of distinction of nama and rupa can > arise by > different ways non related with a knowledge of the cittas speed. > In example, by cultivating equanimity or non-self there is > possibility of an > insight into truth and nibbana. Then the knowledge of the nature of > nama-rupa > and consciousness it would be attained despite no previous > knowledge of cittas > speed. > I'm wrong?. Or is nibbana a consequence of the perception of cittas > speed? -------- N: We do not have to think of perception of citta's speed. Understanding of seeing now as just a reality, an element that knows, is the way to develop pa~n~naa. It is not a matter of first developing equanimity or non-self. We have to consider: what is anatta, non-self, where is it? Seeing now, visible object appearing now is anattaa, but this is not realised yet. Only in being mindful of them over and over again the truth of anattaa can be realised. It is realised by pa~n~naa that has been developed thoroughly. Understanding characteristics of realities appearing now is the way eventually leading to the realisation of nibbaana. -------- Nina. #109738 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Thu Sep 2, 2010 2:57 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: q. chandrafabian Dear Fabian, F: <......> ------- N: In the four Applications of mindfulness we see that both naama and ruupa are objects of mindfulness. And also: akusala arising on account of an object has to be known as it is. If akusala is not known as a conditioned naama, non-self, akusala can never be eradicated. When attachment has fallen away it can be object of mindfulness and at that very moment the citta is kusala citta. FABIAN: Dear Nina, That is true in the four foundation of mindfulness nama and rupa are objects of mindfulness. But rupa as the object of mindfulness is the aggregate rupa, not outside rupa (cocacola can, garden, cars, etc is not rupa as the object of mindfulness) Many Sutta explain the rupa for mindfulness object is aggregate rupa. In Vipassana meditation, we must be mindful of akusala and/or kusala thought and known as it is. Akusala is not eradicated by will, akusala is eradicated by wisdom. The thought is still thought, whether akusala or kusala. We can be attached to kusala or akusala. knowing the reality (anicca, dukkha and anatta)of kusala or/and akusala would condition eradication of attachment. Sometimes kusala or akusala only concepts, that is why the Buddha mention the root of all is lobha, dosa and moha, not akusala or kusala. Lobha, dosa and moha can be squeezed into one root: attachment. We can be attached to kusala or attached to akusala, but both still conditioned. We must develop non attachment to conditioned fenomena, non attachment itself is kusala, therefore it means we develop kusala by developing non attachment. For example: In meditation if you want to give charity it is a kusala thought but this thought is conditioned. If you following this thought it means you are attached to the thought, it is still attachment, and it is not kusala, even though the thought of charity is kusala thought. We must let go attachment to this "kusala idea" because in the ultimate reality it is still attachment and attachment is not kusala. The problem is, if we analyze this "noble thought" of giving charity, the mind would be attached to this idea, and it is "akusala". If we don't analyze that thought, being cut of it's fuel the thought would withered away and disappear, we are not attached, and it is kusala. ---------- F: <......> ------- N: Is it not the stopping of ignorance that leads to the non-arising of naama and ruupa, to the end of the cycle? There can only be less ignorance by the development of whatever reality appears because of its own conditions. We have to learn that realities are beyond control. Akusala should be comprehended, the Buddha said. FABIAN: Does the thought of "noble charity" also arising? And is it not the cutting of the fuel (by do not give attention to the content/object of thought) would condition the non-arising or passing away of that thought? And then the mind unattached to that thought, isn't it kusala? every reality in our lives have distinct characteristics, that is impermanent, unsatisfactory and no self. I agree it is beyond control, but we can create condition for non-arising in the future. To get a better understanding it should be experienced, whenever we try to see the object of the senses, our mind tend to get carried away and attached. ----------- F: <.....> ------- N: Mindfulness accompanies right understanding and this has to be developed. Mindfulness is always mindfulness of an object, the present reality, be it naama or ruupa. We cannot select the objects of mindfulness. It depends on conditions of what object sati will be aware. Nobody can tell ahead of time, nobody can direct sati. Understanding develops in being mindful of both naama and ruupa. Knowing their difference would not come automatically. FABIAN: I agree as far as concerning our own aggregate, but not outside of our own aggregate : vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana and rupa. --------- F: <......> -------- N: The first stage of tender insight is not thinking this is naama and that is ruupa. We do not 'try' to differentiate them. When listening and considering the Dhamma there are conditions for the growth of understanding. Understanding naama and ruupa as conditioned realities. Pa~n~naa will do its task, so long as there is no idea of 'we can do it', because that is interfering with the work of pa~n~naa. Nina. FABIAN: As far as I know, the knowledge of nama-rupa paricheda nana is to be experienced by the wise, not by wishful thinking, the understanding of nama and rupa would come by itself if the condition matured. Nama-rupa Paricheda nana arise together with experiencing something caused by practicing Noble Eightfold Path. Mettacittena, fabian #109739 From: Tadao Miyamoto Date: Thu Sep 2, 2010 3:28 pm Subject: Repeating things three times? tadaomiyamot... Hi Khun Nina: I have a simple question. When I was listening to a sermon at the temple nearby my hotel this morning, I somehow felt 'odd' about the fact that many passages are repeated three times (e.g., taking a refuge in the three Ratanas). It sounded very 'redundant' for me. However, there must be a reason why such redundancy is incorporated in the Teaching. I'm wondering if you have an answer. As for the other subject, I'm not looking for perfect correspondance between Abhidhamma and neuro-sciences. As you've said, they are totally different from each other in aim and methodology. However, even though it may not be fruit-full, there would be no reason not to compare Dhamma with neurosciences. Every week, I attend one study session on neuro-imaging and another study session on neurology at the School of Medicine in my University. And, it is simply my "accumulation" which motivates me to try to compare these two different fields. tadao ' #109740 From: "bhikkhu3" Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 12:18 am Subject: Not Yours! bhikkhu5 Friends: Relinquishing what is Not Ownable produces Calmed Ease! The Blessed Buddha once explained: Bhikkhus, leave whatever is not yours, give it up! Having left it, relinquished it and in every respect released it, that will lead to your lasting welfare, ease and happiness! And what is it, Bhikkhus, that is not yours? The eye is not yours... Forms are not yours... The ear is not yours... Sounds are not yours... The nose is not yours... Smells are not yours... The tongue is not yours... Tastes are not yours... The body is not yours... Touches are not yours... The mind is not yours... Mental States are not yours... When you have left it, given it up, relinquished it, and fully released it, then that will indeed lead to your welfare, ease and happiness for a long time... Imagine, Bhikkhus, that people were to carry off any dry grass and sticks in this entire forest and then burn it all to ashes! Would you then think: 'People are carrying us all off, and burning us all up into nothing...'? No! Why not? Because that grass is neither our self, nor belonging to us! Exactly so too, Bhikkhus: The eye is not yours. Forms are not yours. The ear is not yours. Sounds are not yours. The nose is not yours. Smells are not yours. The tongue is not yours. Tastes are not yours. The body is not yours. Touches are not yours. The mind is not yours. Mental States are not yours. These are neither your self, nor what you are, nor belonging to any self! When you have left these, given them all up, released them, & relinquished them, then that will indeed lead to your welfare, safety, ease & happiness for a long, long, long time... Comments: All states -internal as external, physical as mental- are empty of stability! Their nature is to arise and cease. Neither can they therefore ever be kept, nor ever owned by anybody... Clinging to what never can be kept, is Pain...! Relinquishing it all, is therefore indeed happiness... More on Insight (Vipassan a): http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_18_Principal_Insights.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Calm_and_Insight.htm Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV 129-30 Section 35: On The 6 senses. Thread on Not Yours!: 139+40. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Not Yours! #109741 From: Tadao Miyamoto Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 5:20 am Subject: Thank you, Jonothan tadaomiyamot... Hi Jonothan: I've just got into my University office. Talking with you on the phone was very much the highlight of my trip to Bangkok. I'm planning to attend another conference in Bangkok, which is in May next year at Kasesaat Univ. If I'm able to do so, I would like to visit the Foundation to listen to Khun Sujin's Sunday lecture. Thank you and take care, tadao #109742 From: Kevin F Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 6:19 am Subject: (No subject) farrellkevin80 I am learned in the Tipitika. I have studied much of the Three Pitikas and their Commentaries, all to a degree. I am no expert. However, I am not a fool. I understand the correct Dhamma. I have verified it with the texts. This should be known. I am a sakadagami of the second degree of enlightenment. People should contact me if they want to understand dhamma. The end. Kevin ___________ #109743 From: "Graham" Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 8:28 am Subject: Help Please - Dharma Books for Children grahamarussell Nina, Many thanks, I'll give it a try when we get settled. Graham #109744 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 1:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Repeating things three times? nilovg Dear Tadao, Op 2-sep-2010, om 17:28 heeft Tadao Miyamoto het volgende geschreven: > I > somehow felt 'odd' about > the fact that many passages are repeated three times (e.g., taking > a refuge in > the three Ratanas). -------- N:A matter of ceremony, it is the same in Thailand. But, as for the Buddha it gives us an opportunity to recollect his wisdom, his compassion and his purity. It is rather meaningless to just repeat words, better to recollect the Buddha's virtues meanwhile. Or, better still, and this is the best respect we can pay: investigating even with a beginning awareness, any naama or ruupa appearing one at a time through one of the six doors. ------- > T: As for the other subject, > I'm not looking for perfect correspondance between Abhidhamma and > neuro-sciences. > > As you've said, they are totally different from each other in aim and > methodology.... > > And, it is simply my "accumulation" which motivates me to try to > compare these two different fields. ------- N: Yes, it is conditioned that way. Beyond control! I found a copy of ADL, latest print and we shall send it to you. In Bgk, the Sunday session is all day, in Thai. Saturday afternoon is in English. I do not know whether you kept up your Thai, but Sunday is excellent. From 11-12 Vinaya study in detail, led by experts in Vinaya. The other times: satipa.t.thaana. The MP3's in Thai are also very good: pakinnaka, satipatthaana and Tape Vithayu. ------- Nina. #109745 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 2:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: q. no 1. (to be continued) nilovg Dear Fabian, You have many important points, good you bring them up. I just take one point today. Op 2-sep-2010, om 16:57 heeft chandrafabian het volgende geschreven: > That is true in the four foundation of mindfulness nama and rupa > are objects of mindfulness. But rupa as the object of mindfulness > is the aggregate rupa, not outside rupa (cocacola can, garden, > cars, etc is not rupa as the object of mindfulness) > Many Sutta explain the rupa for mindfulness object is aggregate rupa. -------- N: Often ruupakhandha is translated as body and this may be confusing. The ruupakkhandha includes ruupas of the body and ruupas outside the body. All 28 ruupas. The Vis. Ch XIV explains this in detail. Ruupas of the body are produced by kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition. Ruupas outside are produced by temperature only. Garden, car, etc. are concepts, they are not outside ruupas, thus not object of awareness. When you touch a car hardness may appear and this is the ruupa that is the earth element and it can be object of awareness. ------ Nina. #109746 From: Ken O Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 5:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddha's suicide DN16 ashkenn2k Dear Alex these means all Buddhas and all Great disciples of the past are doing a great injustice to the Law of the Dhamma by killing themselves.? Please differentiate what is said by Buddha as a statement of fact and as a statement of killing oneself.? I let you think about it.? Dhammas are truthful, Abhidhamma clears the truth. ? I never stop saying this. understand Abhidhamma, you understand dhamma, you understand sutta words.? One have little doubt why such and such will happen and will not happen.? I have full faith that any Arahants will never able to kill themselves because for the fact that there is no dosa cetasikas. Ken O > >conditionality doesn't change the fact of action as it occured. > >Deliberately shortening one's life by renouncing vital fabrications is suicide, >just like deliberately cutting off one's life support fully knowing that it will > >result in death. > >With metta, > >Alex #109747 From: Ken O Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 5:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best? ashkenn2k Dear Ken H >----------- > >All actions are intended by cetana. No actions are intended by free will. Free >will is just a concept. KO:? Since you said is cetana, is there kusala and akusala cetana.? Where is in the text that said that concepts cannot condition panna to arise.? Where is in the text where concepts cannot be a object which panna and cetana can arise.? Does that answer your questions, I a concept can arise with panna.? Must all I as a concept arise with akusala. ? If not I wonder why Buddha use I, isn't that a concept.? Does that mean all concepts are wrong or not helpful to the development of dhamma. > >"Them"? Are you suggesting there are people at DSG who deny that all actions are > >intended by cetana? >Or are you suggesting there are people at DSG who deny that actions are intended > >by free will? If so, what would be wrong with that? > >I suspect that ten months ago you didn't know what you were agreeing with. Just >as now you don't know what you are disagreeing with! :-) > >Effort is never deliberate in the sense of free-will, but it is always >deliberate in the sense of being intended by cetana. > >With regard to "other choices" Ken, what choices does the Abhidhamma say cetana >has? KO:???? ?I am talking about dhamma.? Free will or not free will, cannot happen without dhamma.?? Choice or a better word decision making?is always a dhamma.? Lets be clear about Abhidhamma which dhamma in the?text said that dhamma cannot make decision.? Dhamma will make decision because there are dhamma that condition it to happen.? If there is no dhamma of choice, you will not act in this or that way. ? there is dhamma that decide on choice because there?is akusla and kusala roots, thre is vittaka, there is chanda?that condition the arisen of choice.? If there is no choice in dhamma, will you come to listen to a dhamma talk or read dhamma book.??? >--------------------------------- > >Every presently arisen dhamma has arisen exactly the way the prevailing >conditions have caused it to arise. KO:? this is a motherhood statement, what cause the present dhamma to arise :-)? Also can present moment condition the next dhamma to arise.? Or is just ride along unless you are talking about javanas.? Or it is pre-determined by the present dhamam that arise?? > >And please don't tell us the conditions never change. That would be too silly. >:-) KO:? So now you said condition can change, by what :-) then.? I thought?you said?there is no choice or free will, then how can there be a change.? Then again?how can there be a change if all is because of accumulations which is based on past actions. Ken O #109748 From: Vince Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 7:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Time. cerovzt@... Dear Nina you wrote: > N: I understand your dilemma about time, when you think of the > succession of cittas. Time is a concept. We read in the Kathaavatthu Ch XV, > 146 about this with a remark by Ven. Nyanatiloka[...] Also the Atthasaalinii > states that time is a concept. yes. I have included that same cite and others from the Abbhidhamma, and also from some commentators and apparent contradictions in a previous message to Ken.O: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/109612 > I like to quote what Sarah wrote to Fabian: SARAH :< Rather than be > concerned about the understanding of thought processes and fine > detail, I see more value in learning to understand realities at this > moment such as seeing and visible object. If there is no > understanding of them now, there will never be an understanding of > their impermanence, let alone of thought processes.> also I talk about this. It is about practice instead words. The point is about the success of a cultivation with a belief in a nibbana populated with multiple cittas. Sure you knows the Susima Sutta. Susima don't believe the liberation by discernment of some arhants without jhana cultivation. Buddha then explain to Susima the method for the awakening by discernment: "Any consciousness whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every consciousness is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.' Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, [ ..] Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.070.than.html I believe this is one of the scarce comments regarding the practice of the arhants who were liberated by understanding. Can you see the difference between what this Sutta proposes and that need of Time in the cittas succession?. At least this is my feeling. Because it says: "Any consciousness whatsoever that is past, future, or present". So the Sutta rejects giving importance to the Time location of cittas and any other dhamma. However, Abhidhamma remark the getting of this knowledge for the arising of panna. In a practical side, the inclusion of Time by trying to understand the succession of cittas seems to be an over-explanation at least regarding what this Sutta shows. I don't say wrong but just I say an over-explanation. > We do not have to think of perception of citta's speed. > Understanding of seeing now as just a reality, an element that knows, > is the way to develop pa~n~naa. It is not a matter of first > developing equanimity or non-self. > We have to consider: what is anatta, non-self, where is it? Seeing now, > visible object appearing now is anattaa, but this is not realised yet. Only > in being mindful of them over and over again the truth of anattaa can be > realised. It is realised by pa~n~naa that has been developed thoroughly. > Understanding characteristics of realities appearing now is the way > eventually leading to the realisation of nibbaana. but, How can somebody get discernment by being focused in "this" or "that" object? At least to me it sounds impossible because same citta speed. However, with equanimity and non-self one can check a progressive calm in front all that proliferation. I think that when we are focused in choosing one object from the plurality, there is an extreme difficultly to sustain the contemplation with it. And under that schema of three cittas I cannot see a way to solve this, because one becomes an slave of the Time that himself is feeding by choosing one object and then giving substance to the rest. However, when one is aware about the speed and the Time are delusion, then one can take all-reality as the object of contemplation, and without importance of one or many, the past or present, conditioned or conditionant. Is this not what Buddha recommends in that Sutta?: "whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external.." I understand it means: forget inside and outside dhammas, past and future citta. Just be aware that any conceivable is "not me, not mine, not my self". Is this not quite different at all?. I understand equanimity and non-self here are able to subjugate the delusion of time and speed, and then one can be enough sustained in a position to get the arising of panna intro truth. However, while one is putting attention in "this object" or "that object" then one is trying to follow birds instead the flock. What's the method you or other people follow to sustain an enough contemplation in only one object for the arising of understanding of anatta? best, Vince, #109749 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 4:20 pm Subject: An Old Saying that KenH May Well Like upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - The old saying "There's no time like the present!" went through my mind today, and, catching the double meaning, I immediately thought of you, Ken. :-) The Buddha pointed out that the past is gone and the future only imagined. So, literally, there is no time except the present. I note also that the present is ungraspable, undelineable, and even inconceivable (with any clarity), and hence is something in name only. Time, thus, as I believe is asserted in the Abhidhamma, is an illusion. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #109750 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 8:22 pm Subject: Re: Buddha's suicide DN16 truth_aerator Dear KenO, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > > these means all Buddhas and all Great disciples of the past are >doing a great injustice to the Law of the Dhamma by killing >themselves. Maybe they know better than us. >Please differentiate what is said by Buddha as a statement of fact >and as a statement of killing oneself.? The suttas are clear. Some Arhats have committed what we would call suicide. I stick with what the Buddha has said. I don't think that it has to involve dosa cetasika. Who knows. Maybe suicide is a vipaka of some sort. With metta, Alex #109751 From: Tadao Miyamoto Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 3:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Repeating things three times? tadaomiyamot... Hi Nina: As for repeating things three times, my idea is that it has to do with "intentionality". Yesterday, it was Wan-Phra (Holiday), and a few hundred lay-followers visiting the temple requested the Abbot of the temple to give them the Five/Eight Precepts. They had to repeat their request three times in Pali. By way of saying exactly the same things three times, the intentionality of an utterance becomes undoubtedly clear for the listener as well as for the speakers themselves. It must be the same with repeating the passages on the Tri-ratana three times. By way of doing so, one can express one's intention that she/he would not have any "intention" other than taking the refuge in the Tri-ratana. Amazingly, I haven't forgotten Thai. I am not saying this out of my conceit. Things I had learnt in my 20's have been most well kept in my brain. Hence, I would not have much problem in listening to Khun Sujin's talks in Thai. (When I listen to her talks in iPod, I can understand 90% of what she is saying.) Take care, tadao #109752 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 10:57 pm Subject: Re: should one try one's best? ken_aitch Hi Ken O, ----------- <. . .> KH: > >All actions are intended by cetana. No actions are intended by free will. Free will is just a concept. > > KO:> Since you said is cetana, is there kusala and akusala cetana.? ------------ Yes, of course - unless I am misunderstanding your question. The cetana that arises with kusala citta is kusala cetana. With akusala citta it is akusala cetana: with vipakka citta, vipakka cetana, and with kiriya citta, kiriya cetana. ----------------- KO: > Where is in the text that said that concepts cannot condition panna to arise.? ----------------- The texts tell us that only conditioned dhammas can condition other conditioned dhammas. A concept is not a conditioned dhamma. In ultimate reality there are no concepts. ------------------- KO: > Where is in the text where concepts cannot be a object which panna and cetana can arise.? ------------------- There is a kind of panna that belongs exclusively to satipatthana and the 8-fold path. That kind of panna can arise only with a dhamma as its object. As to your question "where in the texts" I can only say "everywhere!" That's what I understand all of the text to be talking about: "In ultimate truth and reality there are only dhammas - no self (no concepts of any kind)." --------------------------- KO: > Does that answer your questions, I a concept can arise with panna.? --------------------------- If the concept of I does (as you suggest) arise with panna, what does panna know about I? ------------------------------- KO: > Must all I as a concept arise with akusala. ? ------------------------------- That's a different question, and you should probably ask someone else. My own theory is that a citta with I as its object is inevitably akusala. However, I can remember years ago being corrected on that theory (by someone at DSG who knows much more than I do). -------------------- KO: > If not I wonder why Buddha use I, isn't that a concept.? Does that mean all concepts are wrong or not helpful to the development of dhamma. -------------------- I would argue that the Buddha (when teaching Dhamma) used concepts of self purely as metaphors for the five khandhas. ---------------------------- <. . .> KO: > > With regard to "other choices" Ken, what choices does the Abhidhamma say cetana has? KO:???? ?I am talking about dhamma.? Free will or not free will, cannot happen without dhamma.?? Choice or a better word decision making?is always a dhamma.? ----------------------------- Let's get back to my question then. According your understanding of the Abhidhamma, which particular decision-making tasks can cetana perform? Can cetana decide, for example, which type of citta it will arise in? Can cetana decide which object citta will take? --------------------------- KO: > Lets be clear about Abhidhamma which dhamma in the?text said that dhamma cannot make decision.? Dhamma will make decision because there are dhamma that condition it to happen.? If there is no dhamma of choice, you will not act in this or that way. ? there is dhamma that decide on choice because there?is akusla and kusala roots, thre is vittaka, there is chanda?that condition the arisen of choice.? If there is no choice in dhamma, will you come to listen to a dhamma talk or read dhamma book.??? --------------------------- Dhammas can create concepts. For example, they can create the concept of a person who is choosing to read a book. In reality, however, there are only the dhammas themselves; there are no people and no books. -------------------------------- KH: > > Every presently arisen dhamma has arisen exactly the way the prevailing conditions have caused it to arise. KO: > this is a motherhood statement, what cause the present dhamma to arise :-) > Also can present moment condition the next dhamma to arise.? Or is just ride along unless you are talking about javanas.? Or it is pre-determined by the present dhamam that arise?? --------------------------------- Does the word "predetermined" have any meaning in the Abhidhamma? In conventional speech it implies some kind of helplessness and hopelessness, doesn't it? "Our fate is sealed and there is no way of changing it!" However, in the Abhidhamma that kind of meaning cannot apply. According to the Abidhamma, only an omnipotent Buddha can know what the next object of consciousness will be. So I suppose a Buddha would have to face the "problem" of its being predetermined. For the rest of us, however, these is no way of telling the future, and so the problem of its being predetermined does not arise. --------------------- KH: > > And please don't tell us the conditions never change. . . . KO:? So now you said condition can change, by what :-) then.? I thought?you said?there is no choice or free will, then how can there be a change.? Then again?how can there be a change if all is because of accumulations which is based on past actions. --------------------- We must be talking about two completely different things. I meant to say that conditions changed from moment to moment. (Every moment is a completely new life in a completely new world.) What did you mean? Ken H PS: Have you noticed, Ken, that all your punctuation marks are coming out as question marks? Pt gave some advice on this problem. I don't know if it will apply in your case, but I think the idea was to go to "View" and "Character Encoding" and then select "Auto-Detect off" and "Unicode (UTF8)". #109753 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 11:49 pm Subject: Re: An Old Saying that KenH May Well Like kenhowardau Hi Howard, ---------- H: > The old saying "There's no time like the present!" went through my mind today, and, catching the double meaning, I immediately thought of you, Ken. :-) The Buddha pointed out that the past is gone and the future only imagined. So, literally, there is no time except the present. ---------- Yes, and I am flattered that you have associated me with that kind of clear thinking. :-) I believe the "double" meaning you are referring to is that time can mean (1) the present reality (which is the only reality) or (2) a continuation from one reality to another (which is a mere concept). --------------------- H: > I note also that the present is ungraspable, undelineable, and even inconceivable (with any clarity), and hence is something in name only. --------------------- Well, we just have to disagree on that. According to the Theravada Dhamma, the beginning, middle and end of the Path are basically all the same. They can all be described as a clear, irrefutable, correct grasp of the present-moment reality. ------------------------------ H: > Time, thus, as I believe is asserted in the Abhidhamma, is an illusion. ------------------------------ Now that's not fair! First you established that, according to the Abhidhamma, the present moment was tiihe only time that really existed. (That's perfectly fair, of course.) But then, you switched meanings! And with the second meaning of time you concluded that the present moment did not really exist. On behalf of the present moment I demand a retrial! :-) Ken H #109754 From: "bhikkhu3" Date: Sat Sep 4, 2010 12:02 am Subject: The 5 Abilities! bhikkhu5 Friends: What are the Five Mental Abilities making one Safe? The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, there are these five abilities. What five? The ability of Faith (saddha- ) The ability of Energy (viriya ) The ability of Awareness (sati ) The ability of Concentration (sama-dhi ) The ability of Understanding (pañña ) When, Bhikkhus, a Noble Disciple understands as they really are the gratification, the danger, and the escape regarding these five abilities, then he is called a Noble Disciple, who is a stream-enterer, no longer bound to the lower worlds, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his assured future destination! On these 5 Mental Abilities (indriya) see: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Final_Abilities.htm <. . .> Source of reference (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V: 193] 48 The Mental Abilities: 2 Stream-Enterer.. Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Sama-hita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net The 5 Abilities! #109755 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Sat Sep 4, 2010 8:47 am Subject: What Would Be Revising 2? Re: Revising 1: Arising of Mundane Pa??aa abhidhammika Dear Jon How are you? You wrote: "I was not translating any particular passage, but yes, by mundane panna I mean lokiya panna." "The context of my original comment (to Alex) was satipatthana and insight(vipassana bhavana), rather than samatha bhavana." You also wrote: "Hoping this clarifies." Not very much, Jon, I am afraid. My original question was: 2. Did mundane pa??aa include Jhaana pa??aa of a putthujjana? Your second answer seemed to be equating samatha bhaavanaa with Jhaana pa??aa. So, my new question is: 1. Are you equating samatha bhaavanaa with Jhaana pa??aa? As you agreed, the phrase 'mundane pa??aa' is still a higher level concept because it can include Jhaana pa??aa of a putthujjana. So, Jon, you need to supply a revised phrase at a lower level that can exclude Jhaana pa??aa of a putthujjana. 2. Therefore, Jon, what would be the revised phrase to replace the expression 'mundane pa??aa' with? By the way, I am glad to hear your confirmation of satipa.t.thaana being the context. My questions are also being asked in the context of satipa.t.thaana. Thanking you in advance. Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #109756 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Sep 4, 2010 9:58 am Subject: Re: JC from Dhammawheel has died... sarahprocter... Dear Phil & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Very sorry to hear that one of the moderators from Dhammawheel, who unless I am mistaken visited DSG briefly under the moniker JC, has died following a brain hemmorage. .... S: Thank you very much indeed for sharing this sad news. Rob K told me he was quite a young man and I just checked back to read his fairly recent intro here, just a couple of months ago in July this year. He told us he lived in Alaska. This was his intro: >when I joined this group it sent me a message saying i should say hello and introduce myself. so here is that message hello! first of all my name is jc some of you may know me from the dhammawheel message board. i haven't been a student of the dhamma for very long, just a little over a decade(though the 1st 5 of those years was spent studying with a Japanese Zen priest so i didn't pick up much in the was of the pali canon), but i try to absorb what i can and put it into practice in my daily life. not always an easy thing to do. i have read a few of the book associated with members of this group The World in the Buddhist Sense .Metta: Loving kindness in Buddhism Abhidhamma in Daily Life mental development in daily life The Buddha's Path and i have a few on my shelf i still need to read. but i thought it was time i should join this group, i have been meaning to for quite some time. i hope to learn what i can from everyone. with metta jc< .... S: It's wonderful he could appreciate the Dhamma in this life and was reading these books of Nina's and Sujin's. During our recent visit to Thailand, Sujin repeatedly used two phrases which I find helpful: a) "the dot in samsara". Everything we find important, everything that occurs in life now, is just "a dot in samsara". b) "Live for understanding". We give ourselves so many goals and aims in life. We find so many things precious and live for so much that is just searching for objects of lobha. All that really matters in life is the understanding of Dhamma and in particular, the understanding of the reality appearing at this moment. ... >This morning I was studying a Dhammapada verse that warns us to prepare provisions for the "journey to the next world." (And Buddhagosa's commentary supports that concept, as surprising as it may be to some.) I didn't know him, but I imagine he prepared some excellent provisions through his enthusiasm for Dhamma. It is exceptionaly rare to be born in the human realm with sensitivity to the Buddha's teaching and clearly he didn't waste that rare opportunity. ... S: Beautifully said! Thanks again for sharing the news with us, Phil. Metta Sarah ======= #109757 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 4, 2010 10:25 am Subject: A lovely dream about Kaeng Krajan! sarahprocter... Dear Sukin, Rob K, Ken H, Nina, Ken O, Christine, Azita, David & all, We planned to phone Sukin and Rob from the airport to say goodbye and give thanks for their help, but incredibly, we were able to get the 4 p.m. flight (we were booked on the 6.40 flight) and it was a real sprint to get to the gates in time. As it was, our bags had to take a sprint too and as a result they were the first off the carousel in Hong Kong! It was a bit like Crocodile Dundee arriving in New York from the outback, arriving in the centre of super fast-paced Hong Kong after the three days in the Thai countryside with all its greenery, bird songs and delicious food eaten at a leisurely pace. We really enjoyed our time with all our friends there and especially the wonderful dhamma discussions of course. At one point Azita asked K.Sujin whether she doesn't tire of answering the same questions and sharing the Dhamma, but she always replies that she usually doesn't think about herself or how she feels (hard for some of us to imagine!). Just passing dhammas. She also agreed that she sees her main task as helping us all to see how much ignorance has been accumulated and how little understanding there really is! Some people may find this depressing or discouraging, but the pa~n~naa which appreciates the truth and the sacca paramii (perfection of truthfulness) is never depressing. Stories, dreams, occasional snippets of understanding.... May we all learn to see more and more ignorance in a day through the understanding of the realities appearing now, such as visible object, hardness, temperature, feeling and so on. Metta Sarah p.s Sukin - AND we took quite a leisurely coffee break on the way to the airport. This consisted of Jon taking the driver's seat for 15-20 mins while queueing up at a hot, slow special fuel-gas station, while Rob, Junko and I took a relaxed break in a little garden area! That was all after an apparently common Thai manoeuvre of reversing back down the highway, into the next section of highway and then reversing up the exit path to the gas station. All very skilfully performed by Rob, I should stress. Forget whether he and Jon were still discussing his different view from Ken H on Jatakas and his different view from Jon on Visiting Thailand/effort..... More to discuss on those topics later - perhaps Rob or Jon? :-) The dreams go on in samsara.... hopefully others will join us next time... ========= #109758 From: "philip" Date: Sat Sep 4, 2010 10:36 am Subject: Re: JC from Dhammawheel has died... philofillet Hi Sarah, thank you for your nice message recognizing JC. > b) "Live for understanding". We give ourselves so many goals and aims in life. We find so many things precious and live for so much that is just searching for objects of lobha. ph: if we reach the goals and objects, it just conditions more searching, if we don't, there can be aversion, so indeed as you say next "all that really matters in life is the understanding of Dhamma and in particular, the understanding of the reality appearing at this moment." Well, I personally still don't believe in the wisdom of aspring to have understanding of the reality appearing at this moment, because I think, as I've said before, that such understanding has not appeared to me yet to be a kind of understanding that is really there for me. Maybe that will change. I personally believe that - for me - looking at my conventional behaviour is the way to go. When behaviour is wholesome in a conventional sense, there is less remorse, and there are better conditions for concentration and understanding to deepen. I know we don't agree on this point, and that's fine. We all agree that senstivity to the Buddha's teaching is a great blessing that we shouldn't waste, and we celebrate JC's sensitivity to the Dhamma! Metta, Phil #109759 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Sep 4, 2010 7:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Old Saying that KenH May Well Like upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 9/3/2010 7:49:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, ---------- H: > The old saying "There's no time like the present!" went through my mind today, and, catching the double meaning, I immediately thought of you, Ken. :-) The Buddha pointed out that the past is gone and the future only imagined. So, literally, there is no time except the present. ---------- Yes, and I am flattered that you have associated me with that kind of clear thinking. :-) I believe the "double" meaning you are referring to is that time can mean (1) the present reality (which is the only reality) or (2) a continuation from one reality to another (which is a mere concept). ---------------------------------------------- The 2nd meaning that I had in mind was the common meaning of the expression, namely that "There's no better time to act than right now." It was your meaning #1, however, that is the special (Dhammic) one. --------------------------------------------- --------------------- H: > I note also that the present is ungraspable, undelineable, and even inconceivable (with any clarity), and hence is something in name only. --------------------- Well, we just have to disagree on that. According to the Theravada Dhamma, the beginning, middle and end of the Path are basically all the same. They can all be described as a clear, irrefutable, correct grasp of the present-moment reality. ------------------------------ H: > Time, thus, as I believe is asserted in the Abhidhamma, is an illusion. ------------------------------ Now that's not fair! First you established that, according to the Abhidhamma, the present moment was the only time that really existed. (That's perfectly fair, of course.) But then, you switched meanings! And with the second meaning of time you concluded that the present moment did not really exist. On behalf of the present moment I demand a retrial! :-) -------------------------------------------- Unfortunately, meanings and reality are both "slippery"! :-) ------------------------------------------ Ken H ============================== With metta, Howard P. S. A sutta that may well appeal to you, Ken, though you may find the Buddha speaking far too conventionally for your taste (LOL!) is MN 131, that you can read at the ATI link _http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.131.than.html_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.131.than.html) . Impermanence /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom and a dream/ (From the Diamond Sutra) #109760 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 4, 2010 12:49 pm Subject: Kevin's message sarahprocter... Hi Kevin, --- On Fri, 3/9/10, Kevin F wrote: >I am learned in the Tipitika. I have studied much of the Three Pitikas and their Commentaries, all to a degree. I am no expert. However, I am not a fool. I understand the correct Dhamma. I have verified it with the texts. This should be known. I am a sakadagami of the second degree of enlightenment. .... S: Regardless of whether this is true or not, (and there seems to be a fair degree of scepticism in this regard), what is the point of mentioning it repeatedly? What are the cittas when one sends a message like this? Surely, when there is a real appreciation of dhammas as anatta, there is no clinging to oneself as being an anything? I also wondered about your response to Azita before. You had referred to your wrong view and when she questioned you about this, you had mentioned how you should have been more specific about the particulars and referred to ignorance. Surely you appreciate that wrong view and ignorance are completely different mental factors, the first arising with certain cittas rooted in lobha and eradicated at the stage of sotapanna and the second with all akusala cittas and eradicated at the stage of arahat? ... >People should contact me if they want to understand dhamma. .... S: We discuss Dhamma together as friends here, Kevin. We all contact each other to share and help each other along the way. I doubt anyone is likely to contact anyone else just because they make various claims of attainment. What do you think? Would you? Metta Sarah ====== #109761 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Sep 4, 2010 12:52 pm Subject: Re: Thank you, Jonothan jonoabb Hi Tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Tadao Miyamoto wrote: > > Hi Jonothan: > > I've just got into my University office. > Talking with you on the phone was very much the highlight of my trip to Bangkok. =============== It was great for me, too. Just like old times! I was so glad we were able to make contact again. =============== > I'm planning to attend another conference in Bangkok, which is in May next year > at Kasesaat Univ. > If I'm able to do so, I would like to visit the Foundation to listen to Khun > Sujin's Sunday lecture. =============== I hope you are able to make it, and perhaps to the English discussion on Saturday afternoon, too. Please keep us informed of your dates, in case we are also planning to be in Bangkok around that time. =============== > Thank you and take care, =============== You too. Hoping to see more of you on the list! Jon #109762 From: han tun Date: Sat Sep 4, 2010 2:11 pm Subject: Gall Bladder Surgery Update hantun1 Dear Sarah, Nina, Chew, Win Win Yee, Andrew, Philip, Sukin, Howard, and all my friends, There are two types of operation for the removal of gall bladder. (1) Open surgery A traditional open cholecystectomy is a major abdominal surgery in which the surgeon removes the gallbladder through a 10-18 cm (4-7 inch) incision. Patients usually remain in the hospital for one week and may require several additional weeks to recover at home. (2) Laparoscopic surgery A less invasive way to remove the gallbladder is called laparoscopic cholecystectomy. This surgery uses a laparoscope (an instrument used to see the inside of your body) to remove the gallbladder. It is performed through several small incisions rather than through one large incision. Patients usually remain in the hospital for one just one night, or at most two. My gall bladder was greatly distended and inflamed, filled with blood, pus and multiple gall stones. Therefore, it could not be removed by Laparoscopic Cholecystectomy, and Open Cholecystectomy had to be used. That is why I am taking so long to recover. Besides, at my age, recovery is very slow. I just wish to know my friends that the stitches had been removed this morning, and the surgical wound has healed well. But I am still weak and cannot sit for long time. So, I will take rest and remain silent again for some more days. -------------------- When I regained consciousness from the general anesthesia, I felt the most intense pain like I had never felt before in my whole life. I do not want to even think about that pain. But this may not be the last time that I have to experience such pain during the rest of my life. Then, what is the use of having a long life if I were to be afflicted with various illnesses accompanied by pain? I told my grandson (40 years) that my long life up to 80 years or so might be the result of my past kusala kamma; but my long life after 80 years or so must be the result of my past akusala kamma. My grandson did not agree. He told me that if I think that way, I am thinking in a negative way. For each and every day that I live, whether it is the result of past kusala kamma or akusala kamma, I will have the golden opportunity to do meritorious deeds to the extent possible, even between the bouts of pain. I had to concur with him. At 40 years of age, my grandson has become a wiser man than me! -------------------- Once again, I thank all my friends very much for sending me their metta, karuna and best wishes, during my difficult time. Kind regards, Han #109763 From: "philip" Date: Sat Sep 4, 2010 2:27 pm Subject: Re: Gall Bladder Surgery Update philofillet Hi Han So glad to hear you are (almost) back on your feet! > I told my grandson (40 years) that my long life up to 80 years or so might be the result of my past kusala kamma; but my long life after 80 years or so must be the result of my past akusala kamma. This is an interesting idea, but...... >>>My grandson did not agree. He told me that if I think that way, I am thinking in a negative way. For each and every day that I live, whether it is the result of past kusala kamma or akusala kamma, I will have the golden opportunity to do meritorious deeds to the extent possible, even between the bouts of pain. ...I think your grandson is right too! We know how precious birth in the human realm is. I know you have wisely said in the past that you have done what you have done, and you will hope for the best. But from what I read in the Dhammapada, you (we) can continue to gather provisions for the journey, day by day, hour by hour, minute by minute, moment by moment, presently arisen reality by...ok, I'll stop there! Please continue to rest and regain your strength so that you can continue to help me understand Dhamma. Metta, Phil #109764 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 4, 2010 2:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Gall Bladder Surgery Update nilovg Dear Han. I am very glad everything went well. I agree with your grandson. You can be of much use to all of us here on the list. Your posts were always very, very helpful. I am looking forward to more of them. Very inspiring. Take courage, Nina. Op 4-sep-2010, om 16:11 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Once again, I thank all my friends very much for sending me their > metta, karuna and best wishes, during my difficult time. #109765 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 4, 2010 2:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A lovely dream about Kaeng Krajan! nilovg Dear Sarah (Phil, Lukas), Thanks for your posts, also about J.C., and thanks to Phil. I remember now, just a brief contact. Op 4-sep-2010, om 12:25 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > She also agreed that she sees her main task as helping us all to > see how much ignorance has been accumulated and how little > understanding there really is! Some people may find this depressing > or discouraging, but the pa~n~naa which appreciates the truth and > the sacca paramii (perfection of truthfulness) is never depressing. ------ N: No, not depressing. If we think it is, we are clinging to a self who should have a lot of knowledge. And where to? This was also Lodewijk's point, he gets depressed, saying, I listened for so many years and what do I know now? Nothing. Lukas, I remember Ven. Dhammadharo saying: why do people want to have a lot of sati? To show it to others? I love that saying. Nina. #109766 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 4, 2010 2:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] An Old Saying that KenH May Well Like nilovg Hi Howard, Op 3-sep-2010, om 22:20 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > The Buddha pointed out that the past is gone and the future only > imagined. So, literally, there is no time except the present. I > note also that > the present is ungraspable, undelineable, and even inconceivable > (with any > clarity), and hence is something in name only. Time, thus, as I > believe is > asserted in the Abhidhamma, is an illusion. ------ N: some quotes: Let go of the past, relinquish of the future, stay in the present, and cross over to the further shore of all becoming & existence! With mind wholly liberated & released, you shall never return to birth & death! Dhammapada 348 ----- Baddhekaratta Sutta. The past should not be followed after, the future not desired. What is past is got rid of and the future has not come. But whoever has vision now here, now there of a present dhamma, The unmovable, unshakable, let him cultivate it [2]. Swelter at the task this very day. Who knows whether he will die tomorrow? There is no bargaining with the great hosts of Death. Thus abiding ardently, unwearied day and night, He indeed is ?Auspicious? called, described as a sage at peace [3]. ------ Only the present reality, like seeing now, hearing now, can be clearly known, but very, very gradually. Our task is just now! ----- Nina. #109767 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Sep 4, 2010 2:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Gall Bladder Surgery Update upasaka_howard Dear Han - In a message dated 9/4/2010 10:11:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hantun1@... writes: Dear Sarah, Nina, Chew, Win Win Yee, Andrew, Philip, Sukin, Howard, and all my friends, There are two types of operation for the removal of gall bladder. (1) Open surgery A traditional open cholecystectomy is a major abdominal surgery in which the surgeon removes the gallbladder through a 10-18 cm (4-7 inch) incision. Patients usually remain in the hospital for one week and may require several additional weeks to recover at home. (2) Laparoscopic surgery A less invasive way to remove the gallbladder is called laparoscopic cholecystectomy. This surgery uses a laparoscope (an instrument used to see the inside of your body) to remove the gallbladder. It is performed through several small incisions rather than through one large incision. Patients usually remain in the hospital for one just one night, or at most two. My gall bladder was greatly distended and inflamed, filled with blood, pus and multiple gall stones. Therefore, it could not be removed by Laparoscopic Cholecystectomy, and Open Cholecystectomy had to be used. That is why I am taking so long to recover. Besides, at my age, recovery is very slow. I just wish to know my friends that the stitches had been removed this morning, and the surgical wound has healed well. ------------------------------------------ Wonderful. :-) ----------------------------------------- But I am still weak and cannot sit for long time. So, I will take rest and remain silent again for some more days. ---------------------------------------------- Perhaps, if the pain permits, some meditating will be in order. And if the pain does not permit, then the pain can be observed - so still you will be meditating. -------------------------------------------- -------------------- When I regained consciousness from the general anesthesia, I felt the most intense pain like I had never felt before in my whole life. I do not want to even think about that pain. But this may not be the last time that I have to experience such pain during the rest of my life. Then, what is the use of having a long life if I were to be afflicted with various illnesses accompanied by pain? I told my grandson (40 years) that my long life up to 80 years or so might be the result of my past kusala kamma; but my long life after 80 years or so must be the result of my past akusala kamma. ---------------------------------------------- Maybe. ----------------------------------------- My grandson did not agree. He told me that if I think that way, I am thinking in a negative way. For each and every day that I live, whether it is the result of past kusala kamma or akusala kamma, I will have the golden opportunity to do meritorious deeds to the extent possible, even between the bouts of pain. I had to concur with him. At 40 years of age, my grandson has become a wiser man than me! ------------------------------------------------ Wise words indeed! :-) --------------------------------------------- -------------------- Once again, I thank all my friends very much for sending me their metta, karuna and best wishes, during my difficult time. ------------------------------------------------ All the best, Han! ---------------------------------------------- Kind regards, Han =========================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #109768 From: Tadao Miyamoto Date: Sat Sep 4, 2010 2:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thank you, Jonothan tadaomiyamot... Hi Jonothan: I was told that the conference would be on May 12 (Thursday) and 13 (Friday). I would probably arrive at Bangkok on 11 and leave there on 16 (Monday) at night. (I cannot stay longer since it is during a semester.) Keep in touch. tadao #109769 From: han tun Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 12:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Gall Bladder Surgery Update hantun1 Dear Alex and Ken H, As I still cannot sit for long, I missed some of the previous messages to me, and I have inadvertently failed to mention your good names in my Update Report. Please accept my most sincere apologies. Kind regards, Han #109770 From: "bhikkhu3" Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 12:11 am Subject: Unhindered Elevation! bhikkhu5 Friends: Dhamma Evaporates the Mental Hindrances! The Blessed Buddha once said: When, Bhikkhus, a Noble Disciple listens carefully to the Dhamma, alert with keen ears, attending to it as a matter of crucial concern, indeed as something of vital importance, directing his entire mind to it, in that very moment, the Five Mental Hindrances are absent in him... On that occasion the Seven Links to Awakening approaches complete fulfilment... And what are the Five Mental Hindrances, that are absent on that occasion? The mental hindrance of Sense-Desire is all absent on that very occasion. The mental hindrance of Evil-Will is all absent in these exact moments. The mental hindrance of Lethargy & Laziness is all absent during that period. The mental hindrance of Restlessness & Regret is all absent on that event. The mental hindrance of Doubt & Uncertainty is all absent in that interval. These are the 5 Mental Hindrances that are entirely absent in that moment. And what are the 7 Links to Awakening that approaches fulfilment there? The Awareness Link to Awakening develops towards complete fulfilment! The Investigation Link to Awakening arises and approaches fulfilment! The Energy Link to Awakening also pushes forward towards fulfilment! The Joy Link to Awakening elevates & moves towards complete fulfilment! The Tranquillity Link to Awakening silently comes to a stilled fulfilment! The Concentration Link to Awakening absorbs into one-pointed fulfilment! The Equanimity Link to Awakening also gains fulfilment by development! These are the 7 Links to Awakening that are fulfilled by development on that occasion. When, Bhikkhus, a Noble Disciple listens carefully to the Dhamma, alert with keen ears, attending it as a matter of crucial concern, as something of vital importance, directing his entire mind to it, in that very moment the Five Mental Hindrances are absent in him. On that occasion the Seven Links to Awakening develop towards complete fulfilment... Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V: 95-6] section 46: The Links. 38: Unhindered... Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * ... #109771 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 1:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Gall Bladder Surgery Update truth_aerator Dear Han, I hope you recover as soon as possible! I wish you quick and speedy recovery. With best wishes, Alex #109772 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 2:13 am Subject: Re: Gall Bladder Surgery Update jonoabb Hi Han Thanks for the update. It's great to hear from you again, and to know that everything's going well. Best wishes for a speedy and pain-free recovery. Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Sarah, Nina, Chew, Win Win Yee, Andrew, Philip, Sukin, Howard, and all my friends, > > There are two types of operation for the removal of gall bladder. > #109773 From: Tadao Miyamoto Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 2:14 am Subject: Will be Dhamma talks on Sept 25/26, 2010? tadaomiyamot... Hi Jonothan: I am wondering whom I should ask whether there will be Saturday English and Sunday Thai sessions at the Foundation on Sept 25 and 26, 2010. If there are, I may go back to Bangkok. ((1) My classes starts from Oct 1, meaning that I'm free in Sept.; (2) I have enough JAL mileage; and, (3) the hotel I stayed offers a burgain price (with excellent services).) tadao >It was great for me, too. Just like old times! I was so glad we were able to make contact again. #109774 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 7:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Will be Dhamma talks on Sept 25/26, 2010? nilovg Dear Tadao, Op 5-sep-2010, om 4:14 heeft Tadao Miyamoto het volgende geschreven: > I am wondering whom I should ask whether there will be Saturday > English and > Sunday Thai sessions > at the Foundation on Sept 25 and 26, 2010. ----- N: Sat. morning from 9 in Thai, sutta reading. Afternoon English, from 2. Sunday whole day Thai. Make sure beforehand Kh Sujin is not on a journey, but usually she is not on weekends. Nina. #109775 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 8:05 am Subject: Re: should one try one's best? epsteinrob Hi Lukas. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Hi Robert, > > > L: Why not let the Dhamma works. > > > > This reminds me of the joke about the Man of God who refused to ever complain or try to change conditions. He would always say "God will provide." One time there was a terrible flood and the police came to rescue the man. He said "I don't need to be rescued - I have faith, and God will provide." The police went away and the flood waters rose to his front door. The Coast Guard came to rescue him in a boat and he said "I won't go - I have faith and God will provide." Then the waters rose up to his roof and he sat happily on the roof. A helicopter came to rescue him and he said "I don't need a helicopter. I have faith - God will provide." After this the waters rose over the roof and he drowned. When the man got to Heaven he was furious. He demanded to see God at once and said "I had faith - I did everything required of me. I never complained or tried to take action on my own, and yet you allowed me to drown. How could you betray my faith like this?" God said: "You foolish man. I sent a car, a boat and a helicopter for you, but you refused to get in!" > > L: This is actually not a joke, but catholic parable. I,ve heard it long ago at the church when I was kid. I learned a lot from this parable. Very wise. Although I called it a joke, I agree it is a good parable, and I found it taught important lessons too. Best, Robert E. = = = = = #109776 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 9:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Repeating things three times? nilovg Hi Tadao, Op 3-sep-2010, om 17:14 heeft Tadao Miyamoto het volgende geschreven: > Amazingly, I haven't forgotten Thai. > I am not saying this out of my conceit. > Things I had learnt in my 20's have been most well kept in my brain. > Hence, I would not have much problem in listening to Khun Sujin's > talks in > Thai. > (When I listen to her talks in iPod, I can understand 90% of what > she is > saying.) ------ N: That is good that you have her talks in iPod. Your wide knowledge of Pali also helps, I think. When Thai is about non-Dhamma things I have trouble, or when others apart from Acharn speak. Nina. #109777 From: Tadao Miyamoto Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 6:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Address of Khun Sujin's Foundation of? tadaomiyamot... Hi Phil: Thank you for your offer of helping my English. Even though I'm a Psycho-linguist, I suffer from a mild form of dyslexia. So your help would be much appreciated when it is needed. I've been living in Sendai for almost 7 years (after having stayed overseas nearly 35 years). If you happen to head for this direction, could please send me e-mail in advance? tadao ________________________________ From: philip <...> >In any case, please feel free to contact me. (I might not see your message on the list, because I come and go, so please contact me directly.) And if you happen to still live in Japan, I would be very happy to meet a Theravadan Buddhist to discuss Dhamma. (I live in Tokyo.) #109778 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 1:25 pm Subject: Re: Unhindered Elevation! gazita2002 hallo Bhante and other dhamma friends, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bhikkhu3" wrote: > Dhamma Evaporates the Mental Hindrances! > The Blessed Buddha once said: > When, Bhikkhus, a Noble Disciple listens carefully to the Dhamma, alert > with keen ears, attending to it as a matter of crucial concern, indeed as > something of vital importance, directing his entire mind to it, in that very > > moment, the Five Mental Hindrances are absent in him... On that occasion > the Seven Links to Awakening approaches complete fulfilment... > azita: if at that moment the 5 hindrances are absent, then it must be a moment of Satipatthana, or is it sotapattimagga citta? Listening carefully to the dhamma explained by someone who really understands the Buddha's teachings, and attending to it as a matter of vital importance is extremely sound advice. I am beginning to understand how listening attentively and often, conditions Sanna to remember what has been heard and this may then condition some degree of right understanding to arise and know, very briefly, a reality that arises eg visible object. however, in the beginning one 'should' know the moments of awareness from the moments without awareness, I would think that if there is any doubt whether awareness has arisen or not then we could be fairly certain that there is no awaremess. > > And what are the Five > Mental > Hindrances, that are absent on that occasion? > The mental hindrance of Sense-Desire > is all > absent on that very occasion. > The mental hindrance of Evil-Will > is all absent > in these exact moments. > The mental hindrance of Lethargy > & Laziness > is all absent during that period. > The mental hindrance of Restlessness > & Regret > is all absent on that event. > The mental hindrance of Doubt > & > Uncertainty is all absent in that interval. > These are the 5 > Mental Hindrances > that are entirely absent in that moment. > > > > > And what are the 7 Links to Awakening that approaches fulfilment there? > The Awareness > Link to Awakening develops towards complete fulfilment! > The Investigation > Link to > Awakening arises and approaches fulfilment! azita: one more quest5ion : what is investigation/ Vicaya - is this a type of Vitakka??? patience, courage and good cheer azita #109779 From: Ken O Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 2:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best? ashkenn2k Dear Ken H >----------------- > >The texts tell us that only conditioned dhammas can condition other conditioned >dhammas. A concept is not a conditioned dhamma. In ultimate reality there are no > >concepts. >There is a kind of panna that belongs exclusively to satipatthana and the 8-fold > >path. That kind of panna can arise only with a dhamma as its object. > >As to your question "where in the texts" I can only say "everywhere!" That's >what I understand all of the text to be talking about: "In ultimate truth and >reality there are only dhammas - no self (no concepts of any kind)." If the concept of I does (as you suggest) arise with panna, what does panna know >about I? > >That's a different question, and you should probably ask someone else. My own >theory is that a citta with I as its object is inevitably akusala. However, I >can remember years ago being corrected on that theory (by someone at DSG who >knows much more than I do). >I would argue that the Buddha (when teaching Dhamma) used concepts of self >purely as metaphors for the five khandhas. KO:? You should read about patthana on object conditioning.??Nina has written a book about and is recently published by Zolag.? A very good gift from her, I am grateful for that.??? When you read dhamma books, so words in the books concept or not, does that?word?condition panna.? And does that panna that arise with words not satipatthana.???? Does panna arise with concepts is part of mundane 8NP.? You got no text to prove but I have many prove of concepts being used for development of panna.? I can give?you many quotes even those arise in Visud, Abhidhamma and commentaries.?? Buddha never denied the use of words as part of development and he knows that words are needed for the development.? If there is no word, I wonder how those ancient disciples in the first place know about dhamma.? ESP :-).? > >Let's get back to my question then. According your understanding of the >Abhidhamma, which particular decision-making tasks can cetana perform? > >Can cetana decide, for example, which type of citta it will arise in? Can cetana > >decide which object citta will take? KO:? citta experience, help by vittaka thinks,?chanda purpose, the roots, cetana just like respect and?patience?which?are virture?and?are that any particular dhamma.??:-)? > >Dhammas can create concepts. For example, they can create the concept of a >person who is choosing to read a book. > > >In reality, however, there are only the dhammas themselves; there are no people >and no books. KO:? definitely there are no books and no people but concepts only exist when dhamma arise and they could condition dhamma to arise >--------------------------------- > >Does the word "predetermined" have any meaning in the Abhidhamma? In >conventional speech it implies some kind of helplessness and hopelessness, >doesn't it? "Our fate is sealed and there is no way of changing it!" However, in > >the Abhidhamma that kind of meaning cannot apply. >We must be talking about two completely different things. I meant to say that >conditions changed from moment to moment. (Every moment is a completely new life > >in a completely new world.) What did you mean? KO:??But I always heard?it is due to?accumulations, accumulationss are past action :-)? It is not helplessness, it is? how dhamma works > > >According to the Abidhamma, only an omnipotent Buddha can know what the next >object of consciousness will be. So I suppose a Buddha would have to face the >"problem" of its being predetermined. For the rest of us, however, these is no >way of telling the future, and so the problem of its being predetermined does >not arise. KO:? what a statement :-) Ken O #109780 From: Tadao Miyamoto Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 1:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Will be Dhamma talks on Sept 25/26, 2010? tadaomiyamot... Hi Nina: Thank you for your help. I'm going to book my flight. tadao ________________________________ From: Nina van Gorkom <....> >N: Sat. morning from 9 in Thai, sutta reading. Afternoon English, from 2. Sunday whole day Thai. Make sure beforehand Kh Sujin is not on a journey, but usually she is not on weekends. Nina. #109781 From: Tadao Miyamoto Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 1:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Repeating things three times? tadaomiyamot... Hi Nina: The same with yours, my Thai is very much domain(Dhamma)-specific. tadao ________________________________ From: Nina van Gorkom <....> >N: That is good that you have her talks in iPod. Your wide knowledge of Pali also helps, I think. When Thai is about non-Dhamma things I have trouble, or when others apart from Acharn speak. Nina. #109782 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 5:35 pm Subject: Re: should one try one's best? truth_aerator Hello Robert, Lukas, KenH, All, Of course one should try one's best. Just do it without holding a Self view. One doesn't have to believe in a Self to do a right thing, right? Kusala action, such as properly done meditation, doesn't require Self View. Effort doesn't require Self view, this is why an Aryan can still have lots of effort. Same for other similar particular cetasikas. Intention (cetana) isn't always akusala, it can be kusala. Intention to DEVELOP wholesome qualities and counter-act unwholesome qualities is kusala intention. With metta, Alex #109783 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 8:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Gall Bladder Surgery Update kenhowardau Dear Han, It was very good of you to be concerned about other people's petty feelings when you were having serious difficulties of your own. Obviously you have been taking the Buddha's medicine and living one citta at a time. Anumodana. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Alex and Ken H, > > As I still cannot sit for long, I missed some of the previous messages to me, and I have inadvertently failed to mention your good names in my Update Report. > > Please accept my most sincere apologies. > #109784 From: "colette" Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 5:25 pm Subject: Re: FUNDAMENTALS ksheri3 Hi Sarah, wow, this one is a bit old but you captured it at a very good time, for me, at least, in my meditative practices. S: "...but the Buddha taught the truth that there is a RIGHT and a WRONG!" colette: I accept that. ----------------------------- My original post strictly concerned itself with the EFFECTS that PRE-SUPPOSITIONS, that PRE-JUDGEMENTS, that CONDITIONING, all have on the behavior of the practitioner as the practitioner decides which category to place the object in question, in. I WAS SAYING AND MAINTAIN THAT ORIGINAL POSITION, that our interpretation of RIGHT & WRONG, what the Buddha did and did not say, etc, ARE ALL CONDITIONED AND RESULTANT FROM THE CONDITIONING THAT THEY ARE PUT IN THRU THE LENSE OF THE PRESENT DHARMA and not the past dharma. ----------------------------------------- S: "...whether kindness is right or wrong, whether greed or anger is right or wrong and so on." colette: THESE ARE ALL ABSTRACT, THEY ARE NOT CONCRETE RUPA, BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL INTANGIBLE NOUMENA OR NAMA. ------------------------------------------- S: "Yes, we use labels, but these labels point to realities, to truths that can be tested out. " colette: I point to the lyrics of the song "MIND GAMES", then I point in the general direction of the MIND-ONLY or YOGACHARA or CHAN or ZEN schools of Buddhist theory. Now, we have a foundation upon which I am building my structure. I then say that I have a supplier that is giving me SUB-STANDARD and completely UN-ACCEPTABLE material that is to manufacture my structure. "GREED IS GOOD", okay, we'll end up in the argument of art imitating life and life imitating art, <......> ARe you actually using the Buddha to support the existance of TRIADS AND TONGS? ----------------------------------------------- S: "If we never learn the difference between right and wrong, then the right will never be developed and the wrong will never be relinquished" colette: how is it possible to learn when you censor and eliminate the material that is to be learned: you maintain the PAST DHARMA to manifest the PRESENT DHARMA, an indicator of the meglamania which may exist in your LAN/WAN CHIP.? IS IT RIGHT only because it is palitable to you or gratifying to your bank account? How about SUICIDE? Is suicide RIGHT? I'm gonna come back since I've gotta a youtube link to a Bhikku in 1968 that sat down in the street, poured gasoline on himself, and lit himself on fire as a light to shine and guide those who follow. toodles, colette BTW, thanx for getting back to me Sarah! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > S: It may be "out there", but the Buddha taught the truth that there is a RIGHT and a WRONG! <....> #109785 From: "philip" Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 11:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Address of Khun Sujin's Foundation of? philofillet Hello Tadao???@ ?@?@ I realized after that it was presumptious of me to offer to help with translating your because since your English is obviously similar to a native speaker, but perhaps in polishing the writing I could help. Have your considered translating perhaps just one section of your book to begin with. For example, the way A. Sujin decided to put out one section of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas in the small book "Concepts and Realities.".... I've always wanted to go to Tohoku region, and I guess my journey would begin through Sendai (like Basho!) so hopefully someday... Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Tadao Miyamoto wrote: > > Hi Phil: > > Thank you for your offer of helping my English. #109786 From: Sukinderpal Date: Mon Sep 6, 2010 12:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Gall Bladder Surgery Update sukinderpal Dear Han, Thanks for letting us know, although Sarah already informed me when she was still here. I am happy that the operation was successful and I hope that you recover well and soon. Metta, Sukinder > > Dear Sarah, Nina, Chew, Win Win Yee, Andrew, Philip, Sukin, Howard, > and all my friends, > > There are two types of operation for the removal of gall bladder. > > (1) Open surgery > A traditional open cholecystectomy is a major abdominal surgery in > which the surgeon removes the gallbladder through a 10-18 cm (4-7 > inch) incision. Patients usually remain in the hospital for one week > and may require several additional weeks to recover at home. > #109787 From: Sukinderpal Date: Mon Sep 6, 2010 12:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A lovely dream about Kaeng Krajan! sukinderpal Hi Sarah, Azita and all Bangkokians, > We planned to phone Sukin and Rob from the airport to say goodbye and > give thanks for their help, but incredibly, we were able to get the 4 > p.m. flight (we were booked on the 6.40 flight) and it was a real > sprint to get to the gates in time. > It is only when Jon and you visit that we get such opportunities, not only in visiting KK and other places, but more importantly, to go deeply into Dhamma points we'd normally won't think about. And I am sure that I speak for everyone else here, those of us who are residing in Bangkok and those like Azita who visit during the same time. :-) > > We really enjoyed our time with all our friends there and especially > the wonderful dhamma discussions of course. > Yes, this time it seemed more relaxed and enjoyable. > At one point Azita asked K.Sujin whether she doesn't tire of answering > the same questions and sharing the Dhamma, but she always replies that > she usually doesn't think about herself or how she feels (hard for > some of us to imagine!). Just passing dhammas. > And I believe that you and Jon are following her example with all that you have done and continue to do here at DSG, and also Nina with all her writings. > She also agreed that she sees her main task as helping us all to see > how much ignorance has been accumulated and how little understanding > there really is! Some people may find this depressing or discouraging, > but the pa~n~naa which appreciates the truth and the sacca paramii > (perfection of truthfulness) is never depressing. > Yes, when there is understanding, there is appreciation. But with me, because there is so much attachment to self, occasionally at a later time, there is aversion to the situation given the impression of how negligible the understanding is. And I may think that at least I don't fall prey to ideas about 'doings', but then attachment to self is attachment to self. So in this sense I'm no different from those who react and consequently end up following some 'formal practice'. :-( > Stories, dreams, occasional snippets of understanding.... > > May we all learn to see more and more ignorance in a day through the > understanding of the realities appearing now, such as visible object, > hardness, temperature, feeling and so on. > And this is appreciated exactly when and if any degree of understanding arises. ;-) > Metta > > Sarah > p.s Sukin - AND we took quite a leisurely coffee break on the way to > the airport. This consisted of Jon taking the driver's seat for 15-20 > mins while queueing up at a hot, slow special fuel-gas station, while > Rob, Junko and I took a relaxed break in a little garden area! That > was all after an apparently common Thai manoeuvre of reversing back > down the highway, into the next section of highway and then reversing > up the exit path to the gas station. All very skilfully performed by > Rob, I should stress. Forget whether he and Jon were still discussing > his different view from Ken H on Jatakas and his different view from > Jon on Visiting Thailand/effort..... More to discuss on those topics > later - perhaps Rob or Jon? :-) > Yes, I remember from when we visited Sri Lanka, that Jon liked drinking coffee, but this time he said that he's avoiding it as much as he can. I wonder though, who's side he is on in this debate about the Jatakas. ;-) > The dreams go on in samsara.... hopefully others will join us next time... > Like Ken H for example. :-) Metta, Sukinder #109788 From: "bhikkhu3" Date: Mon Sep 6, 2010 12:35 am Subject: Knowing the Origin! bhikkhu5 Friends: Knowing the 5 core aspects of the 5 Clusters: The Blessed Buddha once explained: Friends, the uninstructed, uneducated, and ordinary person does neither understand as it really is the origin, nor the ceasing, nor the satisfaction, nor the danger, nor the escape from these five clusters of clinging: Form, Feeling, Perception, Mental Constructions, and Consciousness! But, friends, the instructed Noble Disciple understands as it really is both the origin, the ceasing, the satisfaction, the danger, and the escape in the case of form, feeling, perception, mental constructions, & consciousness! How are these 5 aspects of the 5 clusters of clinging to be understood? The origin of form is nutriment! Ceasing of nutriment is ceasing of form! The satisfaction in form is the pleasure, fun, and joy derived from form. The danger in form is the impermanent and decaying nature of all form. The escape from form is the overcoming of all desire & lust for any form. [Nutriment is here defined as: Food, contact, intention and consciousness!] The origin of feeling, perception and construction is this sense contact. The ceasing of feeling, perception and construction is ceasing of contact. The satisfaction in feeling, perception & construction is the pleasure, and joy derived from feeling, perception and mental construction. The danger in feeling, perception and mental construction is the inherent and inevitable impermanence & therefore immanent dissatisfaction within any feeling, any perception and any mental construction whatsoever! The escape from feeling, perception and construction is the overcoming of all desire and lust for all feeling, perception and mental construction! The initial origin of consciousness is mental construction. The ceasing of consciousness is the ceasing of mental construction. The satisfaction in consciousness is the pleasure and joy derived from consciousness. The danger within consciousness is this impermanence, nature to change, and thus misery characteristic of any form and event of consciousness! The escape from all consciousness is the overcoming & elimination of all desire and lust for any form for consciousness. In this way are these 5 aspects of the 5 clusters of clinging to be fully understood! It is only in this way, that the instructed Noble Disciple indeed really understands, what should be understood... <...> Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya 22:74 III 822 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * <...> #109789 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Sep 6, 2010 2:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] awareness of 4 elements within one's body jonoabb Hi KenO (109633) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Jon > ... > KO: Honestly, if you could separate concepts out of association with sanna, I > am most happy to learn from you. Maybe you could tell me how could you develop > dhamma without words which are concepts that arise with dhammas and these are > the words that condition the development of panna. > =============== J: Straw man, Ken ;-)). The question is the idea that concepts are 'used for development' of the path. They are not. > =============== > >J: I of course agree that the object of thinking is a concept. But again, in what > >sense is the dhamma of thinking to be understood as 'a dhamma that arises with a > >concept'. What is this meant to convey? > > KO: concepts cannot arise without dhammas :-). > =============== J: Nice try ;-)) But this is not the meaning conveyed by the expression 'a dhamma that arises with a concept'. Jon #109790 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Sep 6, 2010 2:29 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Part 2 on Intentional development, simplified jonoabb Hi KenO (109634) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Jon > ... > KO: It cannot be made by undertaking a particular intentional activity then if > one does not go Bangkok intentionallly, how does this going to happen in the > first place :-))). > =============== J: There will always be intentional activity of some kind or another associated with an instance of path development. This does not mean, however, that the undertaking of the intentional activity is a factor in the arising of the path moment(s) in question. (But you know this already ;-)) > =============== > >J: Yes, without the appropriate past kamma there will not be the fulfillment of > >the individual factors. Past kamma is one of those possible 'unforseen factors > >that may intervene'. > > KO: So thats mean we leave all to past kamma and then hope for the best :-) > =============== J: But that would not be the middle way, would it ;-)) Jon #109791 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Sep 6, 2010 2:32 am Subject: What Would Be Revising 2? Re: Revising 1: Arising of Mundane Pa??aa jonoabb Hi Suan (109755) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > > Dear Jon > ... > Your second answer seemed to be equating samatha bhaavanaa with Jhaana > pa??aa. > > So, my new question is: > > 1. Are you equating samatha bhaavanaa with Jhaana pa??aa? > =============== J: I do not equate samatha bhaavanaa with Jhaana pa??aa. As I understand it, samatha bhavana includes, but is not limited to, Jhaana pa??aa. > =============== > As you agreed, the phrase 'mundane pa??aa' is still a higher level concept because it can include Jhaana pa??aa of a putthujjana. > > So, Jon, you need to supply a revised phrase at a lower level that can exclude Jhaana pa??aa of a putthujjana. > =============== J: I have explained that the panna I was referring to is the panna that accompanies a moment of mundane path development, so this would of course exclude the panna that accompanies jhana citta of the putthujjana. Any disagreement/difference of view from you on this point? > =============== > 2. Therefore, Jon, what would be the revised phrase to replace the expression 'mundane pa??aa' with? > =============== J: If your concern is a matter of terminology (for example, how to label the kind of panna being referred to) rather than substance, I may need your assistance in arriving at the correct term. It was my understanding that the expression 'mundane panna' is generally used to refer to panna of satipatthana/vipassana rather than of samatha bhavana. > =============== > By the way, I am glad to hear your confirmation of satipa.t.thaana being the context. > > My questions are also being asked in the context of satipa.t.thaana. > =============== J: Your question, as I understand it, concerns the use of the term 'mundane panna' to refer to panna of satipatthana/vipassana, given that panna also accompanies jhana citta (whish is also a mundane citta). Is this the point? If I were to try and 'perfect' my original statement, I would simply add to it the words appearing in brackets in the following: "In the context of the development of the Path, however, the term 'practice' as used in the teachings refers to the actual arising of panna (i.e., mundane path panna) rather than to the undertaking of specific intentional activities." Jon #109792 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Sep 6, 2010 2:32 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Thank you, Jonothan jonoabb Hi Tadao (109768) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Tadao Miyamoto wrote: > > Hi Jonothan: > > I was told that the conference would be on May 12 (Thursday) and 13 (Friday). > I would probably arrive at Bangkok on 11 and leave there on 16 (Monday) at > night. > (I cannot stay longer since it is during a semester.) > =============== J: Thanks, Tadao. Noted. Will let you know our plans nearer the date. Jon #109793 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Sep 6, 2010 4:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Repeating things three times? gazita2002 hallo Tadao, I remember you from the Phra Dhammadharo days when we all used to meet on a Wednesday {i think} at someones house to share the Dhamma: you were Phra Jetananndo in those days and my name was Helen, which I have changed to Azita. If you do get an opportunity to visit the Foundation while in Bangkok I think you may find it very beneficial. Achan Sujin is teaching with great clarity despite her advanced years. I very much appreciate her time and energy and especially her teaching the dhamma to those who have the interest and understanding to listen. patience, courage and good cheer azita > #109794 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Sep 6, 2010 5:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A lovely dream about Kaeng Krajan! gazita2002 hallo Nina and others, I'd like to add something here that is not quite related but this post somehow reminded me of a thought I had in relation to anatta. When right understanding begins to develop then who can stop the development; usually we cling to wanting to get rid of defilements and cannot make this happen due to no control from 'us' to eradicate these kilesas. When I heard the comment about right understanding arising due to certain conditions and cannot be stopped by 'anyone', it became somehow a little clearer to me the truth of Anatta. patience, courage and good cheer azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: : > > > She also agreed that she sees her main task as helping us all to > > see how much ignorance has been accumulated and how little > > understanding there really is! Some people may find this depressing > > or discouraging, but the pa~n~naa which appreciates the truth and > > the sacca paramii (perfection of truthfulness) is never depressing. > ------ > N: No, not depressing. If we think it is, we are clinging to a self > who should have a lot of knowledge. And where to? This was also > Lodewijk's point, he gets depressed, saying, I listened for so many > years and what do I know now? Nothing. > Lukas, I remember Ven. Dhammadharo saying: why do people want to have > a lot of sati? To show it to others? I love that saying. > Nina. #109795 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 6, 2010 6:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A lovely dream about Kaeng Krajan! nilovg Dear Azita, Op 6-sep-2010, om 7:02 heeft gazita2002 het volgende geschreven: > When I heard the comment about right understanding arising due to > certain conditions and cannot be stopped by 'anyone', it became > somehow a little clearer to me the truth of Anatta. ------ N: Like seeing, when there are conditions it arises and nobody can stop it, Kh Sujin explained. Nina. #109796 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 6, 2010 6:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Time. nilovg Dear Vince, Op 3-sep-2010, om 21:52 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > Sure you knows the Susima Sutta. Susima don't believe the > liberation by > discernment of some arhants without jhana cultivation. Buddha then > explain to > Susima the method for the awakening by discernment: > > "Any consciousness whatsoever that is past, future, or present; > internal or > external.... > I believe this is one of the scarce comments regarding the practice > of the > arhants who were liberated by understanding. > > Can you see the difference between what this Sutta proposes and > that need of > Time in the cittas succession?. At least this is my feeling. > > Because it says: "Any consciousness whatsoever that is past, > future, or > present". So the Sutta rejects giving importance to the Time > location of cittas > and any other dhamma. However, Abhidhamma remark the getting of > this knowledge > for the arising of panna. In a practical side, the inclusion of > Time by trying > to understand the succession of cittas seems to be an over- > explanation at least > regarding what this Sutta shows. I don't say wrong but just I say an > over-explanation. ------- N: There should be awareness and understanding of the present moment, and no need to think of time. > ---------- > V: but, How can somebody get discernment by being focused in "this" > or "that" object? > At least to me it sounds impossible because same citta speed. > However, with > equanimity and non-self one can check a progressive calm in front > all that > proliferation. ------- N: By developing more understanding of the reality of the present moment the truth of impermanence and anatta can be penetrated. Also equanimity will grow. Cittas speed: it does not matter, because the characteristic of this or that reality is investigated. The naama or ruupa has just fallen away, but their characteristics can be known. Like seeing now. Is there no seeing? You do not have to think about it, or to think that it has fallen away. It experiences visible object. Without seeing you would not know that there is visible object. -------- > > V: I think that when we are focused in choosing one object from the > plurality, > there is an extreme difficultly to sustain the contemplation with it. -------- N: But we do not choose anything, impossible. We cannot 'sustain' contemplation of it, that is pa~n~naa's task. And that is just for a brief moment, but this is the way pa~n~naa accumulates. --------- > V: And under that schema of three cittas I cannot see a way to > solve this, because > one becomes an slave of the Time that himself is feeding by > choosing one object > and then giving substance to the rest. > However, when one is aware about the speed and the Time are > delusion, then > one can take all-reality as the object of contemplation, and > without importance > of one or many, the past or present, conditioned or conditionant. > > Is this not what Buddha recommends in that Sutta?: "whatsoever that > is past, > future, or present; internal or external.." ------- N: This is said of each of the five khandhas, about naama and ruupa. The meaning is: they arise and fall away and never return. --------- > V: I understand it means: forget inside and outside dhammas, past > and future citta. > Just be aware that any conceivable is "not me, not mine, not my self". --------- N: Yes, correct. But will only become more clear after a long time. First: naama and ruupa are just realities, dhammas. Everything is dhamma. ------- > > V: Is this not quite different at all?. I understand equanimity and > non-self here > are able to subjugate the delusion of time and speed, and then one > can be enough > sustained in a position to get the arising of panna intro truth. > However, while > one is putting attention in "this object" or "that object" then one > is trying to > follow birds instead the flock. ------- N: Awareness of one dhamma at a time, not otherwise. Each citta experiences only one object at a time, and so does sati accompanying citta. --------- > V: What's the method you or other people follow to sustain an > enough contemplation in only one object for the arising of > understanding of anatta? ------- N: Good question. It is deluded thinking which assumes that there are many objects that can be experienced at a time. This is common, we all do. But listening to true Dhamma, discussing it helps that we come to understand first intellectually that only one reality, one naama or ruupa can be experienced at a time. When you touch a cup, hardness may appear, or cold, or oscillation, not several objects at the same time. There is a lot of thinking after seeing, hearing, touching, that form up ideas of the world, of different things, of persons. We do not try to stop thinking, but we may understand, even intellectually, that through eyes just visible object appears, and that there is no person, no thing in visible object. We learn that there are the six doorways of the five senses and the mind-door and that only one object trhough one doorway at a time appears. That can be object of mindfulness. We do not try to sustain mindfulness of one object, that is not according to reality. Each object falls away and so does citta with sati. I heard Kh Sujin say that someone had problems in life. We all have: with in-laws, parents, neighours, etc. Kh Sujin said that the person with problems was only thinking about situations. Instead of thinking about situations, we should study cittas, then we do not mind any situation we are in. That is why the Buddha stressed all the time seeing and visible object, and the different cittas arising on account of visible object, kusala or akusala. Is this not practice? Nina. #109797 From: Tadao Miyamoto Date: Mon Sep 6, 2010 1:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Address of Khun Sujin's Foundation of? tadaomiyamot... Hi Phil: I've been working on a book, which is nothing to do with Dhamma for the last two years. Once I am able to publish yet, which is probably a year from now, I will start on the book I've been talking about. So, it is at least two years from now when you would see a fragment of the book. At any rate, thanks again for your offer. Since I wasn't able to see Khun Sujin this time, I am going back to Bangkok on the last week of September. Strong Yen helps me a lot to make such a quick return trip to Bangkok, which is, as far as appearances are concerned, totally foreign to me. The Bangkok I know of has totally gone. However, judging from various conversations I had with very ordinary people, the mentality of the Thai people hasn't changed so much, and they have strong faith in Buddhism. tadao ________________________________ From: philip To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, September 6, 2010 8:12:00 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] The Address of Khun Sujin's Foundation of? Hello Tadao?? I realized after that it was presumptious of me to offer to help with translating your because since your English is obviously similar to a native speaker, but perhaps in polishing the writing I could help. Have your considered translating perhaps just one section of your book to begin with. <...> #109798 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Sep 6, 2010 6:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best? kenhowardau Hi Ken O, ------------------- <. . .> KO:? > You should read about patthana on object conditioning.??Nina has written a book about and is recently published by Zolag.? ------------------- Yes, you should read it too. :-) In particular you should read how a concept (which doesn't really exist) can be said to act by way of object condition, or by natural decisive support condition. The explanations are given many times in the books and at DSG. You just have to look for them. To cut a long story short: only dhammas (including the dhammas that create concepts and react to them) actually perform those conditioning functions, the concepts themselves don't do anything. --------- <. . .> KO: > When you read dhamma books, so words in the books concept or not, does that?word?condition panna.? --------- No, but right understanding (panna) of those words can be the condition for panna to arise again in the future. ----------------- KO: > And does that panna that arise with words not satipatthana.???? Does panna arise with concepts is part of mundane 8NP.? You got no text to prove but I have many prove of concepts being used for development of panna.? I can give?you many quotes even those arise in Visud, Abhidhamma and commentaries.?? Buddha never denied the use of words as part of development and he knows that words are needed for the development.? If there is no word, I wonder how those ancient disciples in the first place know about dhamma.? ESP :-).? ------------------ In ancient times (just as now) the world was just one moment of nama and rupa. There was no time for one of the conditioned dhammas in that world to say, "I'll just go out and listen to the Dhamma for a while: when I get back we'll have panna." -------------------------------- KH: > > Let's get back to my question then. According your understanding of the Abhidhamma, which particular decision-making tasks can cetana perform? Can cetana decide, for example, which type of citta it will arise in? Can cetana decide which object citta will take? KO:?> citta experience, help by vittaka thinks,?chanda purpose, the roots, cetana just like respect and?patience?which?are virture? and?are that any particular dhamma.??:-)? ---------------------------------- :-) I think the answer is: no, cetana can't do either of those things. --------------- <. . .> KO:?> definitely there are no books and no people but concepts only exist when dhamma arise and they could condition dhamma to arise --------------- Can you give an example of how a word conditions a dhamma to arise? ----------------------------------- <. . .> KO:??> But I always heard?it is due to?accumulations, accumulations are past action :-)? ----------------------------------- Past action is kamma, isn't it? I think accumulations are formed by all kinds of past dhammas. They explain why different people behave differently in apparently identical circumstances. E.g., one child may be frightened the first time he sees a dog, while his identical twin may be delighted. It's due to different accumulations (including traumatic experiences with dogs) from previous lifetimes. Ken H #109799 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 6, 2010 7:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Address of Khun Sujin's Foundation of? nilovg Dear Tadao, Op 6-sep-2010, om 3:26 heeft Tadao Miyamoto het volgende geschreven: > Since I wasn't able to see Khun Sujin this time, I am going back to > Bangkok on > the last week of September. ----- N: It is nice if you make yourself known to Kh sujin, it is so long ago, and, with you it is as with Bgk: "The Bangkok I know of has totally gone." You look different now, she may not recognize you. You can, also in the Thai sessions, raise any question. I am looking forward to a report about the sessions from you. Nina.