#110000 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:15 pm Subject: Re: Part 2 on Intentional development, simplified epsteinrob Hi Ann. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "glenjohnann" wrote: > > Hello Jon and Robert (again) > > I can see that the discussion below is related to my asking you in my previous post (immediately above) about intentional activity. Perhaps what I should do is look at the posts preceeding your remarks below and follow this thread. You must be affected by the same conditions that are currently infecting us, and so the same topic has arisen for you! Anything you feel like adding to the thread will be enjoyable to read. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = #110001 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:07 am Subject: Re: should one try one's best? ptaus1 Hi KenH, > For example, it helps to explain why the Buddha agreed to teach. The texts tell us his decision was motivated by compassion, and it's interesting, isn't it, that they should say compassion rather than insight? I think it fits in with your perspective. The decision to teach was made when a concept (sentient beings) was the object of the Buddha's consciousness. Therefore, insight could not arise at that moment. But compassion could. > > Other Buddhas (pacceke-Buddhas) have proceeded to parinibbana without ever teaching. And there is nothing wrong with that! There are, after all, only dhammas, and there is no point in teaching dhammas. (They aren't interested!) > > The Buddha, however, was different from pacceke-Buddhas. He experienced the concept of sentient beings, and infinite compassion (as distinct from infinite wisdom) arose with that experience. It was sufficient, in the circumstances, to condition forty-five years of teaching. pt: Interesting observation, I never quite considered it that way :) But yes, perhaps that is the difference between apparent expression of infinite compassion as compared to infinite wisdom. Best wishes pt #110002 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:21 am Subject: Re: should one try one's best? ptaus1 Hi KenO, Thanks for your reply. > KO: Definitely, rupa arise in the sense door process and?then the mind door > process. There are two types of process, sense door process and purely mind > door process. Impossible for concepts to arise in sense door process as sense > citta only have rupa as objects. Concepts only arise in mind citta and hence > arise in mind door process only. At the moment of experiencing a concept, it > is still dhamma that experience. It is impossible to experience a concept > without dhamma. > > Insights are just panna. Panna arise with kusala citta during the javana > process and kusala citta can arise in sense door process or purely mind door > process only. This can be seen in the CMA. pt: Agreed so far. > KO: There is no text that say the > object citta that arise with panna must be a dhamma before vipassana stage, in > fact the text indicate otherwise by the simple example in the commentary of > Distraction of Thoughts and also the Visud on reciting of body parts. Is that > prove enough by recitation of body parts which are concepts as a development > cited by Buddha pt: I think I agree here, but I think the conclusion you draw does not relate directly to what I was trying to say. In other words, I think the body parts recitation, samatha panna, right intelectual understanding of what's heard/read, etc - none of them yet would have panna of vipassana strength, though I think there should be panna of some degree there. So, I agree that at these moments dhamma doesn't have to be the object of citta with panna - so it could be a concept as object, as you say. These moments would be kusala, but, they would not be of insight strength - and the reason why they wouldn't be of insight strength is because panna does not understand a dhamma directly as having the 3 characteristics. In other words, it only knows a concept, so no direct experience of anicca, anatta and dukkha yet. Now, all that was beside the point so to speak, so what I'm directly interested in is regarding the panna of insight strength and when it happens. So, let's please focus on that: > KO: The text you quote are just talking about sense door process. There are pure > mind door processes which does not need a sense door process. simple as that > and?see CMA for details :-) pt: Yes, for some reason, the texts usually stick to the example of sense-door process followed by mind-door processes, so let's first sort that example out before we go further to purely mind-door processes: I checked - the relevant bit is in the ACMA chapter IV - Compendium of the cognitive process. In particular there's one bit on pages 163-164 that describes the mind-door processes that follow the first mind-door process. So, please let me know if we actually agree here - my understanding is that there's the experience of a dhamma (rupa) in the first two processes (sense-door and first conformational mind-door process). And if there's panna during the javana cittas of these two processes - that would then be insight proper, since the object is a dhamma, which should mean that in the conformational mind-door process there's the experience of one of the characteristics - anicca, anatta or dukkha. Do we agree so far? Now, let's examine the case of strictly mind-door processes, without sense-doors involved: > KO: I like to add on. If insight only arise in the this stage, how are you going to develop panna. Also are you saying panna only arise in that stage where the object of the citta is nama and rupa and not during the stage of where the object of citta is a concept. then pse explain how panna arise during listening of dhamma words where the objects of the citta are words and not nama and rupa. pt: My understanding is like this (based on what's said in ACMA about the sense-door process and the following mind-door processes, and as discussed here with others). Let's say there's a thought process - say thinking about red/green light that Alex mentioned, or about what was just heard during a dhamma talk. Now, if insight proper actually occurs at some point there, the detailed explanation would be something like this: 0. there would be one (last) mind-door process, whose cittas have some concept as the object (the green light for example), and there would obviously be all kinds of cetasikas that accompany the cittas (vitaka, attention, concentration, etc) being concerned with the same object (concept). I think there might even be some sort of panna if there's right intellectual understanding, but it wouldn't be panna of the insight strength. Now, if insight occurs, then: 1. the next mind-door process will now have the dhamma of vitaka (or perception, or whatever other dhamma that was involved in the previous mind-door process 0) as the object. But this would be by way of navatabba - during what Ledi Sayadaw calls the conformational mind-door process (so like the first mind-door process that follows after the sense-door process in the sense-door example above). So, a dhamma would be the object of cittas durig this mind-door process by way of navattabba. And importantly, there would be panna during javana cittas of this mind-door process, and that panna now knows directly anatta, anicca or dukkha characteristic of the experienced dhamma during this time. And that's what makes it insight proper. 2. After that mind-door process falls away, other mind-door processes will come with concepts as objects, and as I understand it, they will either serve the purpose of conceptually making sense of the insight that was just experienced, or they will simply continue conceptualising about what was already thought about (green/red light). But this would not be anymore insight proper, as the object of the mind-door processes would now be concepts, not dhammas. Sure, I think there still could be panna of the intellectual kind, but this would not be insight proper as I understand it, since there's no direct knowing of the tilakkhana characteristics. That's how I understand this subject at the moment. Please let me know where our understandings of this differ. Best wishes pt #110003 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard. From a recording in India. no 1. nilovg Dear Ken O, Op 14-sep-2010, om 17:11 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > So I ask Ken H this question, must the object of a citta be a > dhamma for > satipatthana, what is your answer Nina. ------- N: Yes. When there is thinking of a concept, that thinking is a reality and it can be object of satipa.tthaana. ------ Nina. #110004 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:04 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: What I heard. From a recording in India. no 3. nilovg Dear Rob Ep, Op 14-sep-2010, om 19:16 heeft epsteinrob het volgende geschreven: > Concept of whole {in reality is} separate arising dhammas. ----- N: Yes, and in this way we can understand the sutta: It crumbles away... Nina. #110005 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best? nilovg Dear Ken H, Op 15-sep-2010, om 2:05 heeft Ken H het volgende geschreven: > The Buddha, however, was different from pacceke-Buddhas. He > experienced the concept of sentient beings, and infinite compassion > (as distinct from infinite wisdom) arose with that experience. It > was sufficient, in the circumstances, to condition forty-five years > of teaching. ------- N: I understand your train of thoughts. In the case of the omniscient Buddha we cannot fathom what his thoughts were. I am disinclined to separate compassion and his infinite wisdom. How could we pinpoint this? Nina. #110006 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:24 am Subject: Re: should one try one's best? kenhowardau Hi Robert E, Remember this is just my understanding of what I have been told: unless you have it confirmed by a more authoritative source, you should take it with a grain of salt. :-) -------------- RE: > Given that in this view the Buddha was teaching for delusory [conceptual] reasons, not conditioned by wisdom, was the Buddha's 45 years of teaching a product/expression of wrong view? -------------- That's not what I meant to say. There is a difference between delusion and illusion. According to my understanding, all concepts are illusions. They are delusions only when they are experienced with ignorance. ----------------------- RE: > You say it could not be an expression of the Buddha's wisdom arising. Was it an expression of ignorance? Was it kusala or akusala? ----------------------- I said the decision to teach was motivated by compassion. Compassion never arises with ignorance. It is always kusala. ------------------------------ RE: > I can't see how it would be kusala to give a conceptual teaching to a bunch of nonexistent concepts [people.] ------------------------------- The non-existence of people (concepts) is an insight that arises only when a paramattha dhamma is being experienced. It does not arise when the concept itself is being experienced. ---------------------------------------- RE: > I guess in this view the immeasureable kusala of compassion can only be a product of ignorance? ---------------------------------------- I hope have explained my way out of that predicament. My view may have been wrong, but not that wrong. :-) Ken H #110007 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best to get out of a burning house? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 9/15/2010 12:01:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: > If I may butt in with my perspective on actions: Consider the action > that is any particular case of "some person, P, walking across a room." It > is a mere convention to consider this to be a "thing." The facts are that > there is an ever-changing flow of sights, sounds, and bodily sensations (all > rupas) experienced (vi~n~nana), recognized (sa~n~na), felt (sa~n~na), and > emotionally reacted to and thought about (various sankhara) by P, "the > walker," and there are corresponding experiences occurring "in" others who > might be present witnessing the walking, and all of it is thought of and > referred to as "P walking across the room." So, my answer is that actions are > conceptual constructs but not baseless. I am most interested in the "not baseless" part - what part of action is real? I understand that we conceptually "sew together" the idea of a "someone" continuously "going somewhere," but what I would like to know is what are the elements that make up the "walking?" ----------------------------------------------------- There are the various, conventionally separated-off, interrelated elements of experience known as namas and rupas that serve as the basis. ---------------------------------------------------- Is there motion? Motion of what? --------------------------------------------------- There is motio-experience (various bodily sensations), and that experience is augmented by accompanying, changing visual sensations, leading to "thinking of motion," and that is the entire experiential story as far as I'm concerned. What, if anything, lies beyond the experience is unknown to us, and is, in principle, unknowable and merely surmisable. That is my phenomenalist take. (And "motion of what" is just a story - a predictive theory.) ---------------------------------------------------- What is actually taking place if you observed it without concept from moment to moment? --------------------------------------------------- What actually takes place so far as we can actually tell is experiential flows (in "me" and "you" and "others"), mentally chopped up and reified (and often named) on the basis of conventions pertaining to varying quality of experience. ---------------------------------------------------- How does the occurrence proceed in such a way that the "person" winds up "on the other side of the room?" ----------------------------------------------------- Experiential conditions lead to subsequent experiential conditions. It is conditionality played out on the stage of experience. This is all that we know for sure, and it is enough. I'm satisfied to stop with that, and not try to go behind phenomena to an alleged noumenon lurking in the wings. As an aside: The reality that we need to awaken to, in my view, is not that of a lurking, behind-the-scenes noumenon, but, rather, is the seamless nature of phenomenal experience that appears to us as a chopped up realm of separateness. If, OTOH, there *is* a non-experiential, backstage drama going on, projected by means of some sort of light onto an on-stage screen and creating a shadow play for us, it is not something we can get to observe, because we are not given backstage passes! All there is for us is the show, and so, following what we see in the movie theatres, we should just "Sit back and enjoy the show!" ;-) --------------------------------------------------- Best, Robert E.r ============================= With metta, Howard Experience Only /In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself./ (From the Bahiya Sutta) #110008 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best to get out of a burning house? nilovg Hi Howard, Op 15-sep-2010, om 14:33 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > If, OTOH, there *is* a non-experiential, backstage drama going on, > projected by means of some sort of light onto an on-stage screen > and creating > a shadow play for us, it is not something we can get to observe, > because > we are not given backstage passes! All there is for us is the show, > and so, > following what we see in the movie theatres, we should just "Sit > back and > enjoy the show!" ;-) ------ N: I like the idea of a shadow play, and so suitable for Rob Ep, the expert in theatre. Concepts are shadows of realities, as was quoted from the Abhidhammattha Sangaha. > We should just "Sit back and enjoy the show!" Sounds a bit passive. No understanding? Nina. #110009 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best? nilovg Dear Rob Ep and Fabian, Waiting for Azita to return I would meanwhile just like to address the subject of meditation. I feel that misunderstandings may easily arise. Fabian also mentioned meditation in his post to me. Op 11-sep-2010, om 15:28 heeft gazita2002 het volgende geschreven: > I hope it does not imply though, that listening and understanding > dhamma is the only way that insight and direct awareness develops. > Buddha did describe with positive approval the practices of > anapansati and satipatthana meditation. In addition to listening to > the dhamma and following the various elements of the eightfold > noble path, mindfulness meditation and cultivation of jhanas were > two very clear ways in which the Buddha said that right > mindfulness, right understanding and direct awareness were to be > developed. > > > > So I agree and appreciate what you say, but I would not want to > leave out the strong emphasis on meditation which the Buddha also > gave us. To ignore his comprehensive teaching on breathing, > mindfulness and jhana in the suttas would be a great error. ------ N: Samatha is one kind of meditation and vipassanaa is another kind of meditation or bhaavanaa. Jhaana was praised by the Buddha, but only those who have accumulated great skill and inclination could attain it. As to vipassanaa, it is thought by some that for vipassanaa one has to concentrate and be in a quiet place. However, this is not so. Any reality appearing through one of the six doorways can be the object of vipassanaa, also now while discussing, writing, reading, sitting at the computer. This is nothing else but what you call "mindfulness meditation". If one is distracted in daily life and thinks that one has to reserve a specific time for vipassanaa, one may forget that also distraction is a reality and should be known as it is. Wanting to have many moments of sati is counteractive. Is there not a thought of self behind it? Breathing: this is for samatha as well as for vipassanaa. Not an easy subject to say the least. The Visuddhimagga describes all the details about the tetrads mentioned in the sutta and how arahatship can be attained with this subject. The most important thing is: whatever you do, be it the development of jhaana or whatever else, there are only naama and ruupa, not self who is doing anything. -------- Rob: I hope it does not imply though, that listening and understanding dhamma is the only way that insight and direct awareness develops. ------ N: Yes, the only way. By listening to the right Dhamma and considering it, there will be more and more understanding. This understanding can be the condition for direct awareness of naama and ruupa. Not a self, not a person, but the cetasika understanding will do the work. When will we really, really grasp this? I say 'we' because all of us are so used to think of 'me' who can do something and it is hard to let go of this idea. It goes against the stream. Nina. #110010 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:45 am Subject: Re: should one try one's best? jonoabb Hi Robert E (109853) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "epsteinrob" wrote: > > Hi Ken H. > ... > > KH: We could concentrate on walking, or talking, or eating etc., and somehow understand those things as anicca dukkha and anatta. > > Of course we can take any object and by observing them eventually begin to see the dhammas that make them up. =============== J: It is widely understood to be the position of some of us here that the development of the path is about analysing/deconstructing conventional objects into their component `dhammas'. However, this is not the case. Dhammas, to my understanding, are not the things of which conventional objects are composed; they are something else altogether ? of another world, as the Buddha pointed out. Just thought I should clarify that point to save you wasting your breath on rebutting non-existent positions ;-)) =============== > How do you "know dhammas only" without knowing them? Do you squint real hard? Or do you wait for magic to come and sprinkle you with fairy dust? =============== J: ;-)). This is the same question as one that KenO has raised: Does the development of the path involve `doing something' or just `doing nothing and waiting for it to happen'? The answer is, neither of these. A dhamma is known when panna arises and takes it as its object. The conditions for this occurring are neither the doing of some specific activity nor `just doing nothing'. Jon #110011 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:57 am Subject: Re: should one try one's best? jonoabb Hi Robert E (109853) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "epsteinrob" wrote: > > Hi Ken H. > ... > I have heard folks here bend over backwards to say that the detailed instructions in anapansati and satipatthana suttas are just descriptions of what happened to be going on at the time. What nonsense! There is NO evidence for this ridiculous view and an enormous body of evidence that this is exactly what the Buddha taught. He made clear that in addition to practicing mindfulness in every activity at every moment of life, that one was also to find a secluded place, sit down and focus on breathing and satipatthana. He went so far as to say through practice of anapanasati one could realize the entire path from beginning to end. =============== J: What the Buddha did in fact was to explain (quoting now from the words of the sutta) "how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination". One must then look at just what was said in that regard in order to understand exactly how the path is to be realized by the person developing anapanasati. To my understanding, the explanation given in this sutta is exactly the same as the explanation given in other suttas, namely, by developing awareness of presently arisen dhammas (see further below). =============== Do you deny the Buddha's explicit words and explicit teaching through a tortured act of verbal yoga? Is this really what you and your friends want to advocate??? You may be committing an incredible heresy against the explicit word and teaching of the Buddha if you do! =============== J: In this sutta (as in most), the Buddha's `explicit words and explicit teaching' were sufficiently explicit for the audience of the time; however, for the lesser understanding of the likes of you and me ;-)) in this day and age, they require much further consideration. =============== > When Buddha says "When breathing in a long breath he discerns that it is a long breath" he is not just describing what some guy happened to do. He is giving his teaching on how to develop sati and vipassana! You can jump around it all you like and give it a tortured interpretation based on someone else's words, but you are dismissing the words of the Buddha! He actually spoke! You don't need a 10,000 page commentary to tell you he didn't mean what he said. =============== J: Are you sure the passage you've quoted here is a teaching on vipassana, and not samatha? Please consider the following passage from the next paragraph or so in the sutta: "On that occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself ? on feelings in & of themselves ? on the mind in & of itself ? on mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. He who sees clearly with discernment the abandoning of greed & distress is one who oversees with equanimity, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world." Note the reference to remaining focussed on rupa, vedana, citta, sankhaara. This is clearly satipatthana/vipassana. Furthermore, it is satipatthana exactly as given in numerous other suttas not involving anapanasati. Without the development of awareness of (presently arising) dhammas, there can be no "bringing of the four frames of reference to their culmination" by the person developing anapanasati. As I read it, the message here is not so much that anapanasati itself constitutes the development of the path, but rather that for those who were able to develop mindfulness of breathing to the highest degree (including jhanas) the development of the path involves the same mindfulness of presently arising dhammas as for others. Jon #110012 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:21 am Subject: Re: concept of concept jonoabb Hi Robert E (109883) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "epsteinrob" wrote: > > Hi Alex. > ... > In addition I believe that the folks in this group additionally believe that the legend that Buddha himself delivered the Abhidhamma in a continuous sermon in one of the higher spiritual planes after his parinibbana is literally true. The idea is that it is the higher actual teaching and was not given to the mass of Buddhists while Buddha was still on earth. In that view all or many of the suttas are the conventional teaching for those not capable of at least developing pariyatti regarding the paramatha dhammas. Ask around here and I think you will find that to be the case. =============== J: Not at all. In fact, almost the other way round, to my understanding. Both the suttas and the abhidhamma deal with paramattha dhammas. The suttas are couched in conventional language, while the abhidhamma uses more `dhammas-specific' language. For this reason, those of higher developed panna, including those ready for enlightenment, are able to understand the suttas without further elaboration. However, those of less developed panna will require the assistance of the abhidhamma to understand the suttas. =============== > > Some even when we use the words "Citta", "vedana", "rupa", what is being used is a label, a category or a name for a kind of experience. > > I agree with you, but don't think this view is shared by the core members of dsg. > =============== J: Well I for one would certainly agree that the words "citta", "vedana", "rupa" are concepts and not dhammas. However, they are concepts that *represent* dhammas (see the classification of concepts as quoted by Nina in a recent post to you). Not wishing to overburden you, but just butting in to correct any possibly mistaken ideas regarding views expressed here from time to time. Please don't feel any need to reply (wouldn't want you to suffer a burnout ;-)). Jon #110013 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:36 am Subject: Re: should one try one's best? epsteinrob Hi pt, and all. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > 0. there would be one (last) mind-door process, whose cittas have some concept as the object (the green light for example), and there would obviously be all kinds of cetasikas that accompany the cittas (vitaka, attention, concentration, etc) being concerned with the same object (concept). I think there might even be some sort of panna if there's right intellectual understanding, but it wouldn't be panna of the insight strength. > > Now, if insight occurs, then: > > 1. the next mind-door process will now have the dhamma of vitaka (or perception, or whatever other dhamma that was involved in the previous mind-door process 0) as the object. But this would be by way of navatabba - during what Ledi Sayadaw calls the conformational mind-door process (so like the first mind-door process that follows after the sense-door process in the sense-door example above). So, a dhamma would be the object of cittas during this mind-door process by way of navattabba. And importantly, there would be panna during javana cittas of this mind-door process, and that panna now knows directly anatta, anicca or dukkha characteristic of the experienced dhamma during this time. And that's what makes it insight proper. > > 2. After that mind-door process falls away, other mind-door processes will come with concepts as objects, and as I understand it, they will either serve the purpose of conceptually making sense of the insight that was just experienced, or they will simply continue conceptualising about what was already thought about (green/red light). But this would not be anymore insight proper, as the object of the mind-door processes would now be concepts, not dhammas. Sure, I think there still could be panna of the intellectual kind, but this would not be insight proper as I understand it, since there's no direct knowing of the tilakkhana characteristics. I found your description of this process to be a very good one, and gave me more detail on how insight takes place, as well as the way in which concepts and direct experience can work together - taking turns in a sense. I have a few slightly odd questions, which you or anyone could answer. 1. After a moment of insight, when the mind begins conceptualizing again, is such conceptualization kusala since it is based on insight? Is it of a higher grade than concepts based on delusion? Or does going back to concept degrade the previous insight? Can concepts carry the insight in a sense, or does it have to wait for more direct panna to arise and carry the insight forward in a non-conceptual moment? 2. What is an arahat's relationship to concepts? Obviously he has to use concepts to communicate and navigate conventional relations. Is the arahat in a constant state of distinguishing concept from reality, and to what extent does he experience direct realities as opposed to concepts? 3. Is there a time prior to total cessation when an arahat experiences only direct realities for a prolonged period of time, ie, many direct experiences in a row? Does this take place in his daily life, or only when isolated and not required to do conventional activities? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #110014 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:38 am Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: What I heard. From a recording in India. no 3. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob Ep, > Op 14-sep-2010, om 19:16 heeft epsteinrob het volgende geschreven: > > > Concept of whole {in reality is} separate arising dhammas. > ----- > N: Yes, and in this way we can understand the sutta: It crumbles away... > Nina. That is very nice! Aside from being poetic, one can imagine starting with the imagined "conceptual whole" and during insight seeing that whole "crumble away" into component dhammas. Best, Robert E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - #110015 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:44 am Subject: Re: should one try one's best? jonoabb Hi Robert E (and KenH) (109903) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "epsteinrob" wrote: > > Hi Ken H. > ... > If that is the case it gives me a clearer view of your and others' standpoint on reality. What this adds up to is that there is only experience of the mind and no actual world, body or anything else in existence. It's all an illusion. That nama in experiencing rupa is not experiencing actual physicality but only qualities of various kindds that are in fact invented, created by delusion, and that none of it is real. =============== J: Simply put, while the objects experienced through the 5 sense-doors are dhammas, the thinking that follows and that creates the world of people and things as we know it has only concepts (i.e., of people and things) as its object. The actual experiencing in all cases (whether through the 5 sense-doors or the thinking through the mind door) is also a dhamma. The development of panna is the development of panna as to the true nature of dhammas, including how ignorance of dhammas is the cause of continued existence in samsara, and the absence of any mistaking of concepts for dhammas. =============== > When citta eventually develops panna and awakens to the unreality of all of samsara, it is released into nibbana, which is cessation of the entire arising of illusion - no more cittas, no more rupas. It all ends as the delusion ends. Would you say that is a fair estimate of the vision of samsara and nibbana that this group holds? > In truth, I am not opposed to this vision at all. Just want to know if that is what is behind the various teachings around here. It is pretty radical if so, but fine with me. =============== J: As KenH has already explained, a little too radical for most of us here ;-)) Jon #110016 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:45 am Subject: Re: should one try one's best? epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > Hi Robert E, > > Remember this is just my understanding of what I have been told: unless you have it confirmed by a more authoritative source, you should take it with a grain of salt. :-) > > -------------- > RE: > Given that in this view the Buddha was teaching for delusory [conceptual] reasons, not conditioned by wisdom, was the Buddha's 45 years of teaching a product/expression of wrong view? > -------------- > > That's not what I meant to say. There is a difference between delusion and illusion. According to my understanding, all concepts are illusions. They are delusions only when they are experienced with ignorance. > > ----------------------- Well I thank you for this comment. That is as very important distinction, and points to the ability of an arahat to make use of concepts without falling into ignorance, which of course he cannot do. That explains at least one of my paradoxes, and confirms my sense that one can use concepts with full understanding if one is awakened, or even in a decent degree of insight at the time. > RE: > You say it could not be an expression of the Buddha's wisdom arising. Was it an expression of ignorance? Was it kusala or akusala? > ----------------------- > > I said the decision to teach was motivated by compassion. Compassion never arises with ignorance. It is always kusala. > > ------------------------------ > RE: > I can't see how it would be kusala to give a conceptual teaching to a bunch of nonexistent concepts [people.] > ------------------------------- > > The non-existence of people (concepts) is an insight that arises only when a paramattha dhamma is being experienced. It does not arise when the concept itself is being experienced. > > ---------------------------------------- > RE: > I guess in this view the immeasureable kusala of compassion can only be a product of ignorance? > ---------------------------------------- > > I hope have explained my way out of that predicament. My view may have been wrong, but not that wrong. :-) I think you have resolved it to some extent. However, it is a slightly thorny issue that Buddha, or any arahat, would not *have* to teach, but that it is a kind of arbitrary decision. I guess the question is why and whether and when compassion arises for an arahat, such that he seeks to help enlighten others [even though there are in reality only dhammas and no persons suffering,] in order to eradicate suffering. It seems like it is a strange decision in the light of "reality of dhammas" whether he decides to do it or not. The only reason I can think of that would make such a decision to make sense is if it is part of the Buddha's necessary characteristics that compassion would compel him to teach, and that this is somehow part of what happens whenever a Buddha appears. But I am getting way over my head... Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #110017 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:51 am Subject: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best to get out of a burning house? epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > If, OTOH, there *is* a non-experiential, backstage drama going on, > projected by means of some sort of light onto an on-stage screen and creating > a shadow play for us, it is not something we can get to observe, because > we are not given backstage passes! All there is for us is the show, and so, > following what we see in the movie theatres, we should just "Sit back and > enjoy the show!" ;-) Well I can tell you are a fellow New Yorker, and have been to a Loews movie theatre sometime in the not-too-distant past. Conventionally speaking of course! ;-) [For others, what Howard said above is part of their trademark announcement in NY movie theatres: "Sit back and enjoy the show!" ;-) ] I will try to confine my thoughts of a person moving across the room to my conventional daily tasks as much as possible. :-) Thanks for your explanation. I will ponder it some more. I am not totally satisfied with the idea that there is no physical body that goes from one place to another, since it seems so physically and perceptually obvious. I don't mind seeing through that delusion if it is one, but making believe that bodies just "show up" in multiple locations from one side of the room to the other, rather than move, seems to be a bit of a winkin' and blinkin' activity at present. I'm probably just deeply mired in delusion. :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #110018 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:55 am Subject: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best to get out of a burning house? epsteinrob Hi Nina, and Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Howard, > Op 15-sep-2010, om 14:33 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > > If, OTOH, there *is* a non-experiential, backstage drama going on, > > projected by means of some sort of light onto an on-stage screen > > and creating > > a shadow play for us, it is not something we can get to observe, > > because > > we are not given backstage passes! All there is for us is the show, > > and so, > > following what we see in the movie theatres, we should just "Sit > > back and > > enjoy the show!" ;-) > ------ > N: I like the idea of a shadow play, and so suitable for Rob Ep, the > expert in theatre. As you can imagine, Nina, this gives me a desire to "get backstage" and see what is going on! :-) > Concepts are shadows of realities, as was quoted from the > Abhidhammattha Sangaha. I found this statement int he Sangaha very illuminating. It helped me see that concepts have a kind of status in relationship to dhammas, it is just an indirect one. I think the Sangaha said something like "Concepts are perceived as shadows of dhammas" or something like that, which gives the idea that the dhammas are 'dimly seen through the shadows,' rather than not seen at all. I like that idea, that concepts are sort of a veil that both communicate indirectly about the dhammas involved, but at the same time obscure their exact nature. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #110019 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:02 am Subject: Re: A lovely dream about Kaeng Krajan! jonoabb Hi Ann Nice to hear from you again ;-)) (109995) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "glenjohnann" wrote: > > Hi Jon and Robert > ... > And how did the conversation re intentional activities directed towards the development of awareness/insight go? (she asks, planning a trip to Thailand in the new year!) =============== J: I'm hoping Robert (RobK, that is) will come in with a report ;-)) =============== > I know that we all would like to think that those activities are of a different (ie more useful, wholesome) calibre than practices unconnected with the path. However, I expect that if the intention is doing something (going to a discussion, for example, or listening to a tape, or reading posts on this site) in order to gain awareness, then that would be wrong practice. =============== J: Yes, that's my understanding too. =============== What about doing it thinking that it may lead to more understanding? I would be interested in your thoughts on this. =============== J: To the extent that there was any hoping for or expectation of `results', there would be the same wrong view/practice (inevitable for all but the sotapanna and above, of course ;-)). Good news about the trip to Thailand! Do let us know your dates. Jon #110020 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best to get out of a burning house? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/15/2010 9:35:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 15-sep-2010, om 14:33 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > If, OTOH, there *is* a non-experiential, backstage drama going on, > projected by means of some sort of light onto an on-stage screen > and creating > a shadow play for us, it is not something we can get to observe, > because > we are not given backstage passes! All there is for us is the show, > and so, > following what we see in the movie theatres, we should just "Sit > back and > enjoy the show!" ;-) ------ N: I like the idea of a shadow play, and so suitable for Rob Ep, the expert in theatre. --------------------------------------- Yes, I had that in mind when I was writing this. :-) ------------------------------------- Concepts are shadows of realities, as was quoted from the Abhidhammattha Sangaha. ------------------------------------ Yes. :-) -------------------------------- > We should just "Sit back and enjoy the show!" Sounds a bit passive. No understanding? ------------------------------------ No, of course you are right. I was just quoting something that is shown on the screen in U. S. movie theaters. ----------------------------------- Nina. ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #110021 From: Ken O Date: Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best? ashkenn2k Dear pt > >pt: I think I agree here, but I think the conclusion you draw does not relate >directly to what I was trying to say. In other words, I think the body parts >recitation, samatha panna, right intelectual understanding of what's heard/read, > >etc - none of them yet would have panna of vipassana strength, though I think >there should be panna of some degree there. So, I agree that at these moments >dhamma doesn't have to be the object of citta with panna - so it could be a >concept as object, as you say. These moments would be kusala, but, they would >not be of insight strength - and the reason why they wouldn't be of insight >strength is because panna does not understand a dhamma directly as having the 3 >characteristics. In other words, it only knows a concept, so no direct >experience of anicca, anatta and dukkha yet. > > >Now, all that was beside the point so to speak, so what I'm directly interested >in is regarding the panna of insight strength and when it happens. So, let's >please focus on that: KO:? the insight you are saying at nama and rupa level could only be at?vipassana stage.? Until we are there, what we know about dhamma are just nimittas. > >> KO: The text you quote are just talking about sense door process. >There are pure >> mind door processes which does not need a sense door process. simple as that >> and?see CMA for details :-) > >pt: Yes, for some reason, the texts usually stick to the example of sense-door >process followed by mind-door processes, so let's first sort that example out >before we go further to purely mind-door processes: > >I checked - the relevant bit is in the ACMA chapter IV - Compendium of the >cognitive process. In particular there's one bit on pages 163-164 that describes > >the mind-door processes that follow the first mind-door process. So, please let >me know if we actually agree here - my understanding is that there's the >experience of a dhamma (rupa) in the first two processes (sense-door and first >conformational mind-door process). And if there's panna during the javana cittas > >of these two processes - that would then be insight proper, since the object is >a dhamma, which should mean that in the conformational mind-door process there's > >the experience of one of the characteristics - anicca, anatta or dukkha. KO:? as long as panna arise, there is understanding of dhamma.? It is not necessary to be the understanding of three characteristic, it could be understanding the nature of the characteristic?of a dhamma like feeling feels.? ?Even those out of the dispensation, those who believe in cause and effect of kamma is also consider panna.? This panna does not eradicate wrong view as those out of the dispensation does not have the right view of self. We cannot stick to the preposition of just sense door and mind door because a that moment object is just rupa.? There are pure mind door process and they also play significant roles.? The best example of pure mind door process are those beings in the arupa plane.?? In the sense world, there are pure mind door process without any sense door or rupa as an object.? > >Do we agree so far? > >Now, let's examine the case of strictly mind-door processes, without sense-doors > >involved: > >> KO: I like to add on. If insight only arise in the this stage, how are you >going to develop panna. Also are you saying panna only arise in that stage >where the object of the citta is nama and rupa and not during the stage of where >the object of citta is a concept. then pse explain how panna arise during >listening of dhamma words where the objects of the citta are words and not nama >and rupa. > >pt: My understanding is like this (based on what's said in ACMA about the >sense-door process and the following mind-door processes, and as discussed here >with others). Let's say there's a thought process - say thinking about red/green > >light that Alex mentioned, or about what was just heard during a dhamma talk. >Now, if insight proper actually occurs at some point there, the detailed >explanation would be something like this: KO:? Your first statements say panna only happen in nama and rupa level.?? Then how could it happen at the conceptual level since the objects is no longer at the bare process of nama and rupa.? > >0. there would be one (last) mind-door process, whose cittas have some concept >as the object (the green light for example), and there would obviously be all >kinds of cetasikas that accompany the cittas (vitaka, attention, concentration, >etc) being concerned with the same object (concept). I think there might even be > >some sort of panna if there's right intellectual understanding, but it wouldn't >be panna of the insight strength. >Now, if insight occurs, then: > >1. the next mind-door process will now have the dhamma of vitaka (or perception, > >or whatever other dhamma that was involved in the previous mind-door process 0) >as the object. But this would be by way of navatabba - during what Ledi Sayadaw >calls the conformational mind-door process (so like the first mind-door process >that follows after the sense-door process in the sense-door example above). So, >a dhamma would be the object of cittas durig this mind-door process by way of >navattabba. And importantly, there would be panna during javana cittas of this >mind-door process, and that panna now knows directly anatta, anicca or dukkha >characteristic of the experienced dhamma during this time. And that's what makes > >it insight proper. > >2. After that mind-door process falls away, other mind-door processes will come >with concepts as objects, and as I understand it, they will either serve the >purpose of conceptually making sense of the insight that was just experienced, >or they will simply continue conceptualising about what was already thought >about (green/red light). But this would not be anymore insight proper, as the >object of the mind-door processes would now be concepts, not dhammas. Sure, I >think there still could be panna of the intellectual kind, but this would not be > >insight proper as I understand it, since there's no direct knowing of the >tilakkhana characteristics. KO:? panna is develop slowly, what your insigh assertation t is really vipassana level.? We cannot jump to that level without first the?conceptual level of understanding of dhamma.?? As long as there is panna arise be it conventional level, it is consider developing understanding of dhamma.? There is no need to reach insight level to develop understanding of panna.? If that is the case, than it is impossible for ordinary people to learn dhamma. Ken O #110022 From: Ken O Date: Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard. From a recording in India. no 1. ashkenn2k Dear Nina > >> So I ask Ken H this question, must the object of a citta be a >> dhamma for >> satipatthana, what is your answer Nina. >------- >N: Yes. When there is thinking of a concept, that thinking is a >reality and it can be object of satipa.tthaana. >------ KO:? Lets be clear which object are you talking about,?are your objects refering to the objects of a citta as no other dhamma can have an object except a citta.? I never heard panna can have?its own?object, panna can partake an experience of an object of a citta but not on its own.? Even in magga citta, it still citta that?experience the object of Nibbana and not panna.? Panna is just the dominant factor that partake the experience of the?nama of the citta At the moment of thinking of an object, how can thinking be another object for panna since citta only has one object at one time.? If one say it only happen after the citta that has a concept has falls away, it is the next citta where panna arise.? Then are we assuming all citta that concepts arise are without panna.? Then dhamma words could not have an effect on us because??citta will keep association the concepts as not panna. Ken O #110023 From: Ken O Date: Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best? ashkenn2k Dear Ken H > >For example, it helps to explain why the Buddha agreed to teach. The texts tell >us his decision was motivated by compassion, and it's interesting, isn't it, >that they should say compassion rather than insight? I think it fits in with >your perspective. The decision to teach was made when a concept (sentient >beings) was the object of the Buddha's consciousness. Therefore, insight could >not arise at that moment. But compassion could. > KO:? New theory on Buddha.? :-)?.? Ken O #110024 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:25 pm Subject: Re: should one try one's best? epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob Ep and Fabian, > Waiting for Azita to return I would meanwhile just like to address > the subject of meditation. I feel that misunderstandings may easily > arise. Fabian also mentioned meditation in his post to me. > Op 11-sep-2010, om 15:28 heeft gazita2002 het volgende geschreven: > > > I hope it does not imply though, that listening and understanding > > dhamma is the only way that insight and direct awareness develops. > > Buddha did describe with positive approval the practices of > > anapansati and satipatthana meditation. In addition to listening to > > the dhamma and following the various elements of the eightfold > > noble path, mindfulness meditation and cultivation of jhanas were > > two very clear ways in which the Buddha said that right > > mindfulness, right understanding and direct awareness were to be > > developed. > > > > > > So I agree and appreciate what you say, but I would not want to > > leave out the strong emphasis on meditation which the Buddha also > > gave us. To ignore his comprehensive teaching on breathing, > > mindfulness and jhana in the suttas would be a great error. > ------ > N: Samatha is one kind of meditation and vipassanaa is another kind > of meditation or bhaavanaa. Jhaana was praised by the Buddha, but > only those who have accumulated great skill and inclination could > attain it. > As to vipassanaa, it is thought by some that for vipassanaa one has > to concentrate and be in a quiet place. However, this is not so. Any > reality appearing through one of the six doorways can be the object > of vipassanaa, also now while discussing, writing, reading, sitting > at the computer. This is nothing else but what you call "mindfulness > meditation". If one is distracted in daily life and thinks that one > has to reserve a specific time for vipassanaa, one may forget that > also distraction is a reality and should be known as it is. Wanting > to have many moments of sati is counteractive. Is there not a thought > of self behind it? I appreciate this thorough discussion. It is my understanding, for what it is worth, that both things are true - that one can have moments of mindfulness or insight in the midst of everyday life, as you stress, and also have genuine moments of sati and vipassana while taking the moment or breath as object in a meditative setting. I do not see why not. Of course the arising of self-view should not be ignored, but that is just another concept among others that will surely arise in any case. If we make believe there is no self-view, that would be a problem, but if we are open to seeing it, then it doesn't have to be a total obstacle. It is very clear that Buddha encouraged both sorts of activities, and did not specify anywhere that sati and samatha/jhana practice should be restricted to any one class of person. It just doesn't seem covincing to me that these are reserved for such advanced bikkhus that someone who has a natural feeling to meditate should instead avoid it. I DO agree that one shouldn't feel forced to meditate and if one's natural bent is to just contemplate sutta or commentary and have an open eye for the arisings of everyday life, then that is fine for them. But to suggest that someone who has a natural inclination for anapansati or jhana should refrain does not make sense to me either. In either case, if one understands that it is important to see what is there, and not to think there is any control, then these different ways of understanding dhamma can all be good. I don't understand why you say that 'only hearing and thinking about dhamma' can lead to insight. That does not make sense to me in light of the Buddha's detailed teaching on anapansati, jhana and satipatthana, where he gives systematic ways of practicing them through meditation. > Breathing: this is for samatha as well as for vipassanaa. Not an easy > subject to say the least. The Visuddhimagga describes all the details > about the tetrads mentioned in the sutta and how arahatship can be > attained with this subject. > The most important thing is: whatever you do, be it the development > of jhaana or whatever else, there are only naama and ruupa, not self > who is doing anything. I think it is always important to understand that, no matter what one is doing - be open to seeing realities, and not be attached to concepts. > -------- > Rob: I hope it does not imply though, that listening and > understanding dhamma is the only way that insight and direct > awareness develops. > ------ > N: Yes, the only way. By listening to the right Dhamma and > considering it, there will be more and more understanding. This > understanding can be the condition for direct awareness of naama and > ruupa. Not a self, not a person, but the cetasika understanding will > do the work. When will we really, really grasp this? I say 'we' > because all of us are so used to think of 'me' who can do something > and it is hard to let go of this idea. It goes against the stream. I think that letting go of self-concept will be hard in any case, but that for those inclined in towards it, meditation is a setting for discernment, just as scriptural study can be a field for discernment. I see these all as tools, settings, foundations that the Buddha gave for understanding. I don't reject any of them. No matter what field of dhamma you find yourself in, there will be the challenge of letting go of self-view and being open to realities. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #110025 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:45 pm Subject: Re: should one try one's best? epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (109853) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "epsteinrob" wrote: > > > > Hi Ken H. > > ... > > > KH: We could concentrate on walking, or talking, or eating etc., and somehow understand those things as anicca dukkha and anatta. > > > > Of course we can take any object and by observing them eventually begin to see the dhammas that make them up. > =============== > > J: It is widely understood to be the position of some of us here that the development of the path is about analysing/deconstructing conventional objects into their component `dhammas'. However, this is not the case. Dhammas, to my understanding, are not the things of which conventional objects are composed; they are something else altogether ? of another world, as the Buddha pointed out. > > Just thought I should clarify that point to save you wasting your breath on rebutting non-existent positions ;-)) Thank you, Jon. Whatever position you clarify for me, I will make sure to rebut it. Just kidding! > =============== > > How do you "know dhammas only" without knowing them? Do you squint real hard? Or do you wait for magic to come and sprinkle you with fairy dust? > =============== > > J: ;-)). This is the same question as one that KenO has raised: Does the development of the path involve `doing something' or just `doing nothing and waiting for it to happen'? > > The answer is, neither of these. A dhamma is known when panna arises and takes it as its object. The conditions for this occurring are neither the doing of some specific activity nor `just doing nothing'. That's easy for you to say! I agree that dhammas will be known when the conditions arise to allow this. I do think we disagree on the idea that there is no difference between involvement with Dhamma and other processes that come from the Dhamma, and working the day shift at a lunch counter. It is possible that someone working the lunch counter will have sudden vipassana, but that is not what the Buddha taught in my opinion. He clearly taught that living a certain way, doing certain activities, refraining from others, developing understanding, and seeing directly into the true nature of kandhas, would all together lead to awakening. Rather than being arbitrary, that lifestyle of the noble eightfold path was given to create the correct conditions for awakening, and the monks that followed the Buddha were approved for doing so. To turn the eightfold noble path into something totally other, that has no relation to lifestyle or activities, and instead to say that conditions are totally separate from how and why a person behaves or what practices they do, seems to me to be in direct opposition to the behavior of Buddha and the arahats, and what they all extolled and advocated. It is self-defeating. To say that they all behaved that way because it was the fashion of the day is also incorrect. The Buddha's jhanas and the Buddha's development of sati and satipatthana as meditative practices were quite different than the yogic versions that preceded him, [which I have some familiarity with,] and the monks practiced this way because Buddha instructed them to. These practices - *created* by the Buddha for that purpose - were vehicles and still are for Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration, etc. The Buddha's system makes a lot of sense, and removing it and replacing it with a single activity of understanding sutta and Abhidhamma to develop pariyatti, is cutting the Buddha's system down to a single pathway where he had a number of pathways for different temperaments. One size does not fit all, and restricting practice to pariyatti is certainly not the natural practice for every Buddhist. Why not allow for the practice of those methods given by the Buddha and applauded by him for those who have the natural inclination to do so? There is room for both your model of natural arising and discernment, and for those other ways of approaching this that were also taught by the Boss. I have expanded my repertoire by realizing the value of a lot of the approach that you guys talk about around here. Perhaps you can be a bit more open too! [Of course I understand if this is not a possibility! ;-) ] Jon, are you glad you brought this up? Look what happened! Jon, you bring out the best in me! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = #110026 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:08 pm Subject: Re: should one try one's best? epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (109853) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "epsteinrob" wrote: > > > > Hi Ken H. > > ... > > I have heard folks here bend over backwards to say that the detailed instructions in anapansati and satipatthana suttas are just descriptions of what happened to be going on at the time. What nonsense! There is NO evidence for this ridiculous view and an enormous body of evidence that this is exactly what the Buddha taught. He made clear that in addition to practicing mindfulness in every activity at every moment of life, that one was also to find a secluded place, sit down and focus on breathing and satipatthana. He went so far as to say through practice of anapanasati one could realize the entire path from beginning to end. > =============== > > J: What the Buddha did in fact was to explain (quoting now from the words of the sutta) "how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination". > > One must then look at just what was said in that regard in order to understand exactly how the path is to be realized by the person developing anapanasati. > > To my understanding, the explanation given in this sutta is exactly the same as the explanation given in other suttas, namely, by developing awareness of presently arisen dhammas (see further below). I have no problem with that! I do have a problem with meditation practices being seen as the Demon of All Akusala and Self-View, instead of a treasured practice of the Buddha - a setting in which exactly what you are saying can take place! > =============== > Do you deny the Buddha's explicit words and explicit teaching through a tortured act of verbal yoga? Is this really what you and your friends want to advocate??? You may be committing an incredible heresy against the explicit word and teaching of the Buddha if you do! > =============== > > J: In this sutta (as in most), the Buddha's `explicit words and explicit teaching' were sufficiently explicit for the audience of the time; however, for the lesser understanding of the likes of you and me ;-)) in this day and age, they require much further consideration. Well, this is always said, but it remains to be seen if the Buddha's very clear message is really so different for the people of that time as it is for us. I don't see any evidence of that, and I have yet to hear any that is convincing. Just saying that does not make it so. It seems to me that Buddha openly advocating these practices. There was no admonition for "only the most advanced" to practice anapanasati. Buddha said this is the way to discern the realities that lead to enlightenment, plain and simple. This idea that we can't possibly understand the strange and ancient unspoken understandings of breathing meditation - a simple and universal meditation object that has arisen naturally in every culture in the history of the world - just seems thoroughly mythological to me. What's the basis for such a view, as it is not evidenced in the suttas themselves at all? > =============== > > When Buddha says "When breathing in a long breath he discerns that it is a long breath" he is not just describing what some guy happened to do. He is giving his teaching on how to develop sati and vipassana! You can jump around it all you like and give it a tortured interpretation based on someone else's words, but you are dismissing the words of the Buddha! He actually spoke! You don't need a 10,000 page commentary to tell you he didn't mean what he said. > =============== > > J: Are you sure the passage you've quoted here is a teaching on vipassana, and not samatha? Both vipassana and samatha are necessary for awakening. In the Buddha's teaching, samatha allows for sati to more clearly discern realities and develop vipassana. Dry insight is a possibility, but sati "lubricated" by samatha or its deeper development in jhana, is a more effective complete path. The breath is able to develop both, as an object that affects samatha directly, and as an object of sati. In different verses one or the other may be emphasized, but in anapanasati both work together. > Please consider the following passage from the next paragraph or so in the sutta: > "On that occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself ? on feelings in & of themselves ? on the mind in & of itself ? on mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. He who sees clearly with discernment the abandoning of greed & distress is one who oversees with equanimity, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world." > > Note the reference to remaining focussed on rupa, vedana, citta, sankhaara. This is clearly satipatthana/vipassana. Furthermore, it is satipatthana exactly as given in numerous other suttas not involving anapanasati. Buddha states that properly practiced, the work with breathing can develop into all stages of the path. The different sets of verses go through different stages, and so the sutta neatly includes basic sati, basic pacification/samatha, development of the jhanas and satipatthana. Pretty neat system the Buddha put together, eh? > Without the development of awareness of (presently arising) dhammas, there can be no "bringing of the four frames of reference to their culmination" by the person developing anapanasati. Yes, one practicing this way would hopefully allow the various stages and attributes to arise in a way that supported subsequent awareness and understanding to develop. > As I read it, the message here is not so much that anapanasati itself constitutes the development of the path, but rather that for those who were able to develop mindfulness of breathing to the highest degree (including jhanas) the development of the path involves the same mindfulness of presently arising dhammas as for others. I agree with part I of what you say. Not sure about part II. I agree that one may or may not be able to follow this mindfulness practice "to the highest degree" and fulfill the entire path, but one can certainly follow it as far as one is able to go at a given time, and the practice is one that anyone can engage with. As for developing the "same mindfulness of presently arising dhammas as for others," I would say that depending on the individual, anapanasati might be the most effective vehicle, or another method of discernment might be more effective, such as dry insight. For those who follow it through though, I think the Buddha considered anapansati as a most effective vehicle for development of sati, vipassana, jhana and satipatthana. Whether one is able to do x, y or z in a given lifetime is of course out of anyone's control. I notice that I sit when I sit, read sutta when I read sutta, and discuss things with you on dsg when I am doing that, so I feel that all my activities are proceeding along properly according to conditions. :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #110027 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:11 pm Subject: Re: concept of concept epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > Both the suttas and the abhidhamma deal with paramattha dhammas. The suttas are couched in conventional language, while the abhidhamma uses more `dhammas-specific' language. > > For this reason, those of higher developed panna, including those ready for enlightenment, are able to understand the suttas without further elaboration. However, those of less developed panna will require the assistance of the abhidhamma to understand the suttas. Thank you for that clarification! That is good information. ... > Not wishing to overburden you, but just butting in to correct any possibly mistaken ideas regarding views expressed here from time to time. Please don't feel any need to reply (wouldn't want you to suffer a burnout ;-)). Too late! You already burned me out with the last two posts! Enjoyable however. I will try to survive [conventionally speaking of course.] Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #110028 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:14 pm Subject: Re: should one try one's best? epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > When citta eventually develops panna and awakens to the unreality of all of samsara, it is released into nibbana, which is cessation of the entire arising of illusion - no more cittas, no more rupas. It all ends as the delusion ends. Would you say that is a fair estimate of the vision of samsara and nibbana that this group holds? > > In truth, I am not opposed to this vision at all. Just want to know if that is what is behind the various teachings around here. It is pretty radical if so, but fine with me. > =============== > > J: As KenH has already explained, a little too radical for most of us here ;-)) Hm....that's not saying you don't agree with it. Please write me privately if the physical universe does not in fact exist. ;-) Thanks, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #110029 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:12 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: What I heard. About nimitta, no 2. nilovg Dear Rob Ep, Op 14-sep-2010, om 19:21 heeft epsteinrob het volgende geschreven: > When we say > > that there are no things, no people, we do not say that there is > > nothing, there are the Great Elements. Kh Sujin remarked, that is > why > > we can find a chair and sit in it. We do not sit on air. > > I just don't quite get the "reality" of the elements, as they only > appear as "part of" rupa, am I right? So they seem to be the only > part of dhammas that is a "constituent" of something else, > contained within rupa, rather than arising "on their own." ------- N: They are ruupas. Contained within a group of ruupas, consisting of at least eight ruupas. ------- > R:So it seems like rupa is both "what it is" at the moment AND some > combination of the 4 elements at the same time, which seems like it > is not a basic element, but a combination in that case. I may be > quite confused, but I hope I am communicating this question clearly. ------ N: Of such a group of ruupas each one has a specific characteristic and it may be known when it appears, one at a time. For example, hardness, which is the Element of Earth, may appear just for a moment when touching. Its characteristic can be realized as just a kind of reality. Not all the ruupas in a group can be known at the same time, only one characteristic appears at a time. At another moment heat may appear, and then hardness does not appear at the same time. You can verify this. -------- > R:I wonder why the 4 great elements have this special place in the > arising of rupa, and nothing else is part of something else. ----- N: Because they are the foundation of the other ruupas in a group and they are never lacking. As to , I do not quite get this. all ruupas arise in groups. ------- Nina. > #110030 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:14 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: What I heard. From a recording in India. no 3. nilovg Dear Rob Ep, Op 15-sep-2010, om 17:38 heeft epsteinrob het volgende geschreven: > Concept of whole {in reality is} separate arising dhammas. > > ----- > > N: Yes, and in this way we can understand the sutta: It crumbles > away... > > R: That is very nice! Aside from being poetic, one can imagine > starting with the imagined "conceptual whole" and during insight > seeing that whole "crumble away" into component dhammas. ------ N: So, we can conclude that a conceptual whole is nothing, just crumbs. ------ Nina. #110031 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best to get out of a burning house? nilovg Dear Rob Ep, Op 15-sep-2010, om 17:51 heeft epsteinrob het volgende geschreven: > I am not totally satisfied with the idea that there is no physical > body that goes from one place to another, since it seems so > physically and perceptually obvious. I don't mind seeing through > that delusion if it is one, but making believe that bodies just > "show up" in multiple locations from one side of the room to the > other, rather than move, seems to be a bit of a winkin' and > blinkin' activity at present. I'm probably just deeply mired in > delusion. :-) ------- N: Yes, this is ordinary life, going from one place to a next. But we can remember that in the ultimate sense there is no body existing, only elements. I remember crossing a street together with Kh Sujin and she reminded me: just elements pressing on elements. Not 'my feet' moving on the street. ------ Nina. #110032 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best to get out of a burning house? nilovg Dear Rob Ep, Op 15-sep-2010, om 17:55 heeft epsteinrob het volgende geschreven: > I like that idea, that concepts are sort of a veil that both > communicate indirectly about the dhammas involved, but at the same > time obscure their exact nature. ------ N: Well said, Nina. #110033 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: meditation.was:should one try one's best? nilovg Dear Rob Ep, I appreciate the discussions with you. You are openminded and your remarks and questions are good, to the point. Do not disappear suddenly! Did you find your way to Rob K's forum already? So many details involved in discussions on samatha and vipassanaa. The material is so wide, too much for just a few posts. We discussed this often on dsg. Op 16-sep-2010, om 3:25 heeft epsteinrob het volgende geschreven: > Wanting > > to have many moments of sati is counteractive. Is there not a > thought > > of self behind it? > > I appreciate this thorough discussion. It is my understanding, for > what it is worth, that both things are true - that one can have > moments of mindfulness or insight in the midst of everyday life, as > you stress, and also have genuine moments of sati and vipassana > while taking the moment or breath as object in a meditative > setting. I do not see why not. ------ N: That is just the problem: what is breath and how is it an object? See Rob K's forum, if you have time. If not, I can try to speak about it in short, but I am not able to write long posts. ------- > R:... But to suggest that someone who has a natural inclination for > anapansati or jhana should refrain does not make sense to me > either. In either case, if one understands that it is important to > see what is there, and not to think there is any control, then > these different ways of understanding dhamma can all be good. ------- N: You are right, but the problem again: does he know what jhaana is and how anapanasati is to be developed in the right way. ------- > > R:I don't understand why you say that 'only hearing and thinking > about dhamma' can lead to insight. That does not make sense to me > in light of the Buddha's detailed teaching on anapansati, jhana and > satipatthana, where he gives systematic ways of practicing them > through meditation. ------- N: Yes, also for jhana and anapanasati one has to listen, consider a lot, compare different parts of the Tipi.taka with each other. Not reading just a few suttas. Comparing the commentaries, we really need these. ------- Nina. #110034 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concepts. was: should one try one's best? nilovg Dear Rob Ep, Op 15-sep-2010, om 17:36 heeft epsteinrob het volgende geschreven: > 1. After a moment of insight, when the mind begins conceptualizing > again, is such conceptualization kusala since it is based on > insight? Is it of a higher grade than concepts based on delusion? > Or does going back to concept degrade the previous insight? Can > concepts carry the insight in a sense, or does it have to wait for > more direct panna to arise and carry the insight forward in a non- > conceptual moment? ------- N: It is very natural that there is thinking of concepts also after a moment of insight. I remember Kh Sujin explaining about a stage of insight: at that moment there is no person, no world. But when such moments have fallen away, there is the world again, she said. ------- > > R: 2. What is an arahat's relationship to concepts? Obviously he > has to use concepts to communicate and navigate conventional > relations. Is the arahat in a constant state of distinguishing > concept from reality, and to what extent does he experience direct > realities as opposed to concepts? ------ N: He also uses concepts. The Buddha recognized Saariputta and Mogallana, but of course no wrong view about it. He knows that concepts are not paramattha dhammas, and that at the moment a concept is the object of citta, not a paramattha dhamma is the object. -------- > > R: 3. Is there a time prior to total cessation when an arahat > experiences only direct realities for a prolonged period of time, > ie, many direct experiences in a row? Does this take place in his > daily life, or only when isolated and not required to do > conventional activities? ----- N: Anaagaamis and arahatas who have developed both jhaana and vipassanaa can have cessation attainment. Only those with the eight attainments (of r?pa-jh?na and ar?pa-jh?na), can enter cessation- attainment. But cessation is not experiencing realities, it is the temporary stopping of them. Nirodha, cessation or extinction, which is the temporary suspension of citta and cetasikas does not occur in daily life. -------- Nina. #110035 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard. From a recording in India. no 1. nilovg Dear Ken O, Op 15-sep-2010, om 20:07 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > > >> So I ask Ken H this question, must the object of a citta be a > >> dhamma for > >> satipatthana, what is your answer Nina. > >------- > >N: Yes. When there is thinking of a concept, that thinking is a > >reality and it can be object of satipa.tthaana. > >------ > KO: Lets be clear which object are you talking about, are your > objects refering > to the objects of a citta as no other dhamma can have an object > except a citta. -------- N: I am not referring to the object of citta in this case, but to the citta that thinks and has just fallen away. It can be object of citta accompanied by pa~n~naa arising in a following process. ------- > K: > I never heard panna can have its own object, panna can partake an > experience of > an object of a citta but not on its own. Even in magga citta, it > still citta > that experience the object of Nibbana and not panna. Panna is just > the dominant > factor that partake the experience of the nama of the citta ------ N: Citta, the accompanying pa~n~naa and all other accompanying cetasikas share the same object as you know. You are correct, pa~n~naa cannot arise on its own. ------- K: At the moment of thinking of an object, how can thinking be another object forpanna since citta only has one object at one time. If one say it only happen after the citta that has a concept has falls away, it is the next citta where panna arise. Then are we assuming all citta that concepts arise are without > panna. Then dhamma words could not have an effect on us because > citta will > keep association the concepts as not panna. > > --------- N: I do not see any problem. As explained above, thinking can be an object for citta accompanied by pa~n~naa in a following process. ------ Nina. #110036 From: "a_true_lotus" Date: Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:28 pm Subject: Introduction a_true_lotus Hello, I wanted to introduce myself. I have been interested in Buddhism for quite some time now, learning much from CDs and DVDs, no teacher, yet. Otherwise, I'm quite boring, am 48, live in a rural area that is near the St. Croix River scenic park. Because I live in such a rural location, I depend on good groups like this one. I have read some messages before I joined, and like the topics of conversation. Thank you. Arianna Lindemann #110037 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:58 pm Subject: Re: Introduction kenhowardau Hi Arianna, Welcome to DSG. A: > I have been interested in Buddhism for quite some time now <. . .> > Otherwise, I'm quite boring Apart from our interest in Buddhism we are all quite boring. :-) Fortunately, the Dhamma is everywhere. Ken H #110038 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best? kenhowardau Hi Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Ken H > > > > >For example, it helps to explain why the Buddha agreed to teach. The texts tell > > >us his decision was motivated by compassion, and it's interesting, isn't it, > >that they should say compassion rather than insight? I think it fits in with > >your perspective. The decision to teach was made when a concept (sentient > >beings) was the object of the Buddha's consciousness. Therefore, insight could > >not arise at that moment. But compassion could. > > > > KO:? New theory on Buddha.? :-)?.? > --------- Yes, sorry about that. And it goes completely against your new theory on concepts. :-) Ken H #110039 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:50 pm Subject: Re: should one try one's best? truth_aerator Hello Jon, all, > J: What the Buddha did in fact was to explain (quoting now from >the words of the sutta) "how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is >developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to >their culmination". Right. Anapanasati is to be developed and its development realizes satipatthana and can lead up to Arhatship. >J: One must then look at just what was said in that regard in order >to understand exactly how the path is to be realized by the person >developing anapanasati. Right. VsM makes it even clearer, see below. > J: In this sutta (as in most), the Buddha's `explicit words and >explicit teaching' were sufficiently explicit for the audience of >the time; however, for the lesser understanding of the likes of you >and me ;-)) in this day and age, they require much further >consideration. Maybe because some people tend to overcomplicate things and read-in things that Buddha has never meant... Anapanasati VsM VIII VIII,145. "'Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty place, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, established mindfulness in front of him, VIII,153. Gone to the forest ...or to an empty place: this signifies that he has found an abode favourable to the development of concentration through mindfulness of breathing. VIII,158. Herein, gone to the forest is gone to any kind of forest possessing the bliss of seclusion among the kinds of forests characterized thus: 'Having gone out beyond the boundary post, all that is forest' (Ps.i,176; Vbh. 251), and 'A forest abode is five hundred bow lengths distant' (Vin.iv,183). To the root of a tree: gone to the vicinity of a tree. To an empty place: gone to an empty, secluded space. And here he can be said to have gone to an 'empty place' if he has gone to any of the remaining seven kinds of abode (resting place).42 [271] VIII,159. Having thus indicated an abode that is suitable to the three seasons, suitable to humour and temperament,43 and favourable to the development of mindfulness of breathing, he then said sits down, etc., indicating a posture that is peaceful and tends neither to idleness nor to agitation. Then he said having folded his legs crosswise, etc., to show firmness in the sitting position, easy occurrence of the in-breaths and out-breaths, and the means for discerning the object. VIII,160. Herein, crosswise is the sitting position with the thighs fully locked. Folded: having locked. Set his body erect: having placed the upper part of the body erect with the eighteen backbones resting end to end. For when he is seated like this, his skin, flesh and sinews are not twisted, and so the feelings that would arise moment by moment if they were twisted do not arise. That being so, his mind becomes unified, and the meditation subject, instead of collapsing, attains to growth and increase. =========== As to unfavourable monastery VsM - IV,2 : "Herein, one that is unfavourable has any one of eighteen faults. These are: largeness, newness, dilapidatedness, a nearby road, a pond, [edible] leaves, flowers, fruits, famousness, a nearby city, nearby timber trees, nearby arable fields, presence of incompatible persons, a nearby port of entry, nearness to the border countries, nearness to the frontier of a kingdom, unsuitability, lack of good friends. [119] One with any of these faults is not favourable. He should not live there. " Ten Impediments: VsM III, 29 A dwelling, family, and gain, A class, and building too as fifth, And travel, kin, affliction, books, And supernormal powers: ten." ==== With metta, Alex #110040 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:58 pm Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: What I heard. About nimitta, no 2. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > R:I wonder why the 4 great elements have this special place in the > > arising of rupa, and nothing else is part of something else. > ----- > N: Because they are the foundation of the other ruupas in a group and > they are never lacking. > As to , I do not quite get > this. all ruupas arise in groups. Do they arise sequentially, one at a time, or are they only experienced one at a time, but arise together? Thanks, Robert E. = = = = = = #110041 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:59 pm Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: What I heard. From a recording in India. no 3. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob Ep, > Op 15-sep-2010, om 17:38 heeft epsteinrob het volgende geschreven: > > > Concept of whole {in reality is} separate arising dhammas. > > > ----- > > > N: Yes, and in this way we can understand the sutta: It crumbles > > away... > > > > R: That is very nice! Aside from being poetic, one can imagine > > starting with the imagined "conceptual whole" and during insight > > seeing that whole "crumble away" into component dhammas. > ------ > N: So, we can conclude that a conceptual whole is nothing, just crumbs. > ------ Hm...I will have to ponder that... That sounds right... Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #110042 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:01 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best to get out of a burning house? epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob Ep, > Op 15-sep-2010, om 17:51 heeft epsteinrob het volgende geschreven: > > > I am not totally satisfied with the idea that there is no physical > > body that goes from one place to another, since it seems so > > physically and perceptually obvious. I don't mind seeing through > > that delusion if it is one, but making believe that bodies just > > "show up" in multiple locations from one side of the room to the > > other, rather than move, seems to be a bit of a winkin' and > > blinkin' activity at present. I'm probably just deeply mired in > > delusion. :-) > ------- > N: Yes, this is ordinary life, going from one place to a next. But we > can remember that in the ultimate sense there is no body existing, > only elements. > I remember crossing a street together with Kh Sujin and she reminded > me: just elements pressing on elements. Not 'my feet' moving on the > street. Ah, but the elements do have some motion? They press on each other? Even that would be something...! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #110043 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:12 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: meditation.was:should one try one's best? epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob Ep, > I appreciate the discussions with you. You are openminded and your > remarks and questions are good, to the point. Do not disappear suddenly! Thank you, Nina. I am having a very good time with these discussions too! You know I am subject to sudden disappearance because of 'conventional overwhelm.' But I will try to hang around, or come back more quickly if I need to break off. There is a story of the great American writer Faulkner that I like. He had a job sorting mail in a Post Office, down in the basement I think. Well he got the idea for his first great novel and began to write for days without stopping in the mail room. Eventually the Post Office officials got many complaints that the mail was not being delivered, and they found Faulkner downstairs, leaning on a few unsorted mailbags and writing his book. He was fired of course, great writing notwithstanding. I am a little afraid of being "fired" by my family if I don't do my expected activities. :-) > Did you find your way to Rob K's forum already? So many details > involved in discussions on samatha and vipassanaa. The material is so > wide, too much for just a few posts. We discussed this often on dsg. I did check out the forum, and a lot of good stuff. I wish I had more time, but will try to visit there too. I have to also figure out how to look things up there a little better - slightly different system. > Op 16-sep-2010, om 3:25 heeft epsteinrob het volgende geschreven: > > > Wanting > > > to have many moments of sati is counteractive. Is there not a > > thought > > > of self behind it? > > > > I appreciate this thorough discussion. It is my understanding, for > > what it is worth, that both things are true - that one can have > > moments of mindfulness or insight in the midst of everyday life, as > > you stress, and also have genuine moments of sati and vipassana > > while taking the moment or breath as object in a meditative > > setting. I do not see why not. > ------ > N: That is just the problem: what is breath and how is it an object? > See Rob K's forum, if you have time. If not, I can try to speak about > it in short, but I am not able to write long posts. At some point if you are able to give the summary, that will be very helpful. And I will try to look on Rob K's when I can too. > ------- > > R:... But to suggest that someone who has a natural inclination for > > anapansati or jhana should refrain does not make sense to me > > either. In either case, if one understands that it is important to > > see what is there, and not to think there is any control, then > > these different ways of understanding dhamma can all be good. > ------- > N: You are right, but the problem again: does he know what jhaana is > and how anapanasati is to be developed in the right way. > ------- Well I think there is some room here for agreement. I am glad that at least with understanding you would leave room for these "activities." > > R:I don't understand why you say that 'only hearing and thinking > > about dhamma' can lead to insight. That does not make sense to me > > in light of the Buddha's detailed teaching on anapansati, jhana and > > satipatthana, where he gives systematic ways of practicing them > > through meditation. > ------- > N: Yes, also for jhana and anapanasati one has to listen, consider a > lot, compare different parts of the Tipi.taka with each other. Not > reading just a few suttas. Comparing the commentaries, we really need > these. I can agree that an understanding through sutta and other sources is necessary. I don't think if one just sits down to 'breathe' it will lead to satipatthana, without understanding. I am glad to hear your comments on this. Thanks for taking up this subject! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #110044 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:17 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: concepts. was: should one try one's best? epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > R: 2. What is an arahat's relationship to concepts? Obviously he > > has to use concepts to communicate and navigate conventional > > relations. Is the arahat in a constant state of distinguishing > > concept from reality, and to what extent does he experience direct > > realities as opposed to concepts? > ------ > N: He also uses concepts. The Buddha recognized Saariputta and > Mogallana, but of course no wrong view about it. He knows that > concepts are not paramattha dhammas, and that at the moment a concept > is the object of citta, not a paramattha dhamma is the object. Thanks for your answer on this and the other responses on the subject of concepts. So the Buddha or an arahat can navigate between realities and concepts as conditions require, understanding which is which and what is ultimately real. That makes sense. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #110045 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:22 pm Subject: Re: should one try one's best? epsteinrob Hi Alex. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > Ten Impediments: VsM III, 29 > A dwelling, family, and gain, A class, and building too as fifth, > And travel, kin, affliction, books, And supernormal powers: ten." Books!? Books are an impediment to anapanasati? That's going to be a major shock to this group... ;-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #110046 From: "bhikkhu3" Date: Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:48 pm Subject: Infinite Pity! bhikkhu5 Friends: How is Release by Infinite Pity Achieved? The Blessed Buddha once said: And how, Bhikkhus, is the mental release by universal pity achieved? What does this liberation have as its destination, what is its culmination, what is its sweet fruit, and what is the goal of release by universal pity? Here, Bhikkhus, a Bhikkhu dwells pervading the frontal quadrant with a mind imbued with infinite pity, so the 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarter. As above, so below, across, and everywhere! To all beings and to himself, he dwells pervading the entire universe with a mind saturated with unlimited pity, immense, exalted, vast, measureless, without hostility, without enmity, without any trace of ill will! Thus prepared & expanded he then develops: 1: The Awareness Link to Awakening joined with this limitless pity. 2: The Investigation Link to Awakening fused with such vast pity. 3: The Energy Link to Awakening together with this infinite pity. 4: The Joy Link to Awakening accompanied with this absolute pity. 5: The Tranquillity Link to Awakening linked with this spacious pity. 6: The Concentration Link to Awakening associated with this great pity. 7: The Equanimity Link to Awakening joined with this endless pity. While based upon seclusion, disillusion, ceasing, & culminating in release. If he then wishes: May I dwell experiencing the repulsive in the unrepulsive and tempting, then he can dwell experiencing the repulsive therein. If he wishes: May I dwell experiencing the unrepulsive in the disgusting and repulsive, then he dwells experiencing pleasing beauty in whatever is disgusting! If he then wishes: May I dwell experiencing the repulsive in what is both unrepulsive and repulsive, he dwells experiencing repulsive disgust in it. If he wishes: May I dwell experiencing the unrepulsive in what is both unrepulsive and repulsive, he experiences only excessive beauty in it! If he wishes: Avoiding both the repulsive and the unrepulsive, may I dwell in equanimity, just aware & clearly comprehending, then he dwells in this equanimity, just aware and clearly comprehending. Or else, by completely transcending of all experience of form, fully stilling any perception of all sense-reaction, non attending to any experience of diversity, only aware that space is infinite, he enters and dwells in the infinitude of space... I tell you Bhikkhus, for a wise Bhikkhu here, who has not yet penetrated to an even more superior mental release, this release of mind by infinite pity has the sublime sphere of the infinitude of space as its culmination! <...> Source of reference (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V: 115-21] 46: The Links. 54: Joined by Friendliness... Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * <...> #110047 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:41 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best? ptaus1 Hi KenO, > KO: the insight you are saying at nama and rupa level could only be > at vipassana stage. Until we are there, what we know about dhamma are just > nimittas. pt: Agreed. In other words, the object of citta before nama-rupa stage would be a concept, even though there's some sort of panna there (though not of the vipassana strength). So, to make it more clear for further discussion, we seem to have panna of at least 3 "strengths" as related to the object of citta: (1) panna at the conceptual level - ala Right intellectual understanding that's often mentioned on dsg, samatha/jhana panna, etc. The key thing here being that this panna accompanies a citta that has a concept/nimitta as object. But, as you mention below, I also think that this sort of panna does not eradicate wrong view, so I wouldn't call it tender insight, nor insight proper yet. (2) panna at the level of tender insight (begining with nama-rupa stage), where individual characteristics of a dhamma are known by panna, though not necessarily the general characteristics (anatta, anicca and dukkha) of it. Here though, I'm assuming that the object of citta with panna is now a dhamma, not a concept anymore, otherwise individual characteristics of a dhamma couldn't be known directly. Agreed? (3) panna at the level of insight proper, the object of citta there being a dhamma, and panna knowing one of the general characteristics at the time. > KO: as long as panna arise, there is understanding of dhamma. It is not > necessary to be the understanding of three characteristic, it could be > understanding the nature of the characteristic of a dhamma like feeling feels. > Even those out of the dispensation, those who believe in cause and effect of > kamma is also consider panna. This panna does not eradicate wrong view as those > out of the dispensation does not have the right view of self. pt: I'm guessing here you've expressed the same thing that I've just said above regarding different strengths/kinds of panna, right? > KO: We cannot stick to the preposition of just sense door and mind door because a > that moment object is just rupa. There are pure mind door process and they also > play significant roles. The best example of pure mind door process are those > beings in the arupa plane. In the sense world, there are pure mind door > process without any sense door or rupa as an object. pt: I'm not quite sure what exactly is your objection here? In the previous post, I've described my understanding of how insight proper happens both in case of (a) sense-door followed by mind-door processes, as well as (b) purely mind-door processes following each other. So, in case of thinking, for example, which has some concept as the object in one mind-door, that thinking as a dhamma (vitaka), or any other dhamma that participates in thinking (sanna, vicara, etc), can become the object of the following mind-door process with panna. > KO: Your first statements say panna only happen in nama and rupa level. Then > how could it happen at the conceptual level since the objects is no longer at > the bare process of nama and rupa. pr: I'm not quite sure to what your objection relates to here either? As I think we agree, panna at the conceptual level does not liberate - it's not insight proper, so I was hoping to stop discussing that case. You keep returning to it though, so I'm not quite sure what exactly is not clear there? As mentioned before, I think that sort of panna is important for the development, because it conditions panna of insight strength in the future. But still it's not insight proper yet, and I thought we were discussing insight proper. > KO: panna is develop slowly, what your insigh assertation t is really vipassana > level. We cannot jump to that level without first the conceptual level of > understanding of dhamma. As long as there is panna arise be it conventional > level, it is consider developing understanding of dhamma. There is no need to > reach insight level to develop understanding of panna. If that is the case, > than it is impossible for ordinary people to learn dhamma. pt: I agree KenO, but your conclusion here is a bit of a strawman - I never really argued against panna at the conceptual level. All I was saying was that insight proper would have a dhamma as object of citta, while you were saying that it can be a concept too. You haven't yet provided an argument that would convince me that insight proper (so panna of strength number 2 and 3) can have a concept as the object too - I thought that was your claim at the start - at least that's how I understood you. So, to reiterate, I agree that panna at the conceptual level is important (e.g. the right conceptual understnading that KenH and Sukin keep mentioning), but insight proper happens only with a dhamma as object, as I understand, regardless of whether it is in javana cittas of a sense-door process followed by a mind-door process, or in javana cittas of a purely mind-door process following a previous mind-door process. Do we still disagree somewhere? Best wishes pt #110048 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Sep 17, 2010 12:41 am Subject: Re: should one try one's best? ptaus1 Hi RobE, > I have a few slightly odd questions, which you or anyone could answer. I'm glad Nina got to your questions before me. I don't really know the answer to most of them. I'm also hoping to discuss with Sarah and Jon more about the relationship between panna and concepts, and perhaps then I'll be able to contribute more regarding what you're asking. Best wishes pt > 1. After a moment of insight, when the mind begins conceptualizing again, is such conceptualization kusala since it is based on insight? Is it of a higher grade than concepts based on delusion? Or does going back to concept degrade the previous insight? Can concepts carry the insight in a sense, or does it have to wait for more direct panna to arise and carry the insight forward in a non-conceptual moment? #110049 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 17, 2010 12:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction nilovg Dear Arianna, Op 16-sep-2010, om 21:28 heeft a_true_lotus het volgende geschreven: > I wanted to introduce myself. I have been interested in Buddhism > for quite some time now, learning much from CDs and DVDs, no > teacher, yet. ------ N: Welcome here. As Ken H wrote, dhamma is everywhere. This is a good topic for discussion. How do you see this? Nina. #110050 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 17, 2010 12:51 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: What I heard. About nimitta, no 2. nilovg Dear Rob Ep, Op 17-sep-2010, om 4:58 heeft epsteinrob het volgende geschreven: > As to , I do not quite get > > this. all ruupas arise in groups. > > Do they arise sequentially, one at a time, or are they only > experienced one at a time, but arise together? -------- N: All ruupas in one group arise and fall away together. When one of these appear, its characteristic can be known. Only one at a time can be experienced as object of citta. Nina. #110051 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best to get out of a burning house? nilovg Dear Rob Ep, Op 17-sep-2010, om 5:01 heeft epsteinrob het volgende geschreven: > I remember crossing a street together with Kh Sujin and she reminded > > me: just elements pressing on elements. Not 'my feet' moving on the > > street. > > Ah, but the elements do have some motion? They press on each other? > Even that would be something...! ------ N: One of the great Elements, the Element of Wind is motion or oscillation. Vis. Ch XI, 92: An element can impinge on another element. The element of hardness can impinge on another element of hardness. ------- Nina. #110052 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best? nilovg Dear Rob Ep and Alex, Op 17-sep-2010, om 5:22 heeft epsteinrob het volgende geschreven: > Ten Impediments: VsM III, 29 > > A dwelling, family, and gain, A class, and building too as fifth, > > And travel, kin, affliction, books, And supernormal powers: ten." > > Books!? Books are an impediment to anapanasati? That's going to be > a major shock to this group... ;-) ------ N: All these things are only impediments to jhaana, not to vipassanaa, except the last one, this is an impediment to vipassanaa as well. Actually, books are the responsibility of the scriptures, but it is an impedimanet The person who develops calm to the degree of jhaana should not be burdened by recitations at such moments. -------- Nina. #110053 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction sarahprocter... Dear Arianna, Welcome to DSG and many thanks for your introduction. I just googled and found that the scenic park you mention is in Minnesota and that the river is a tributary of the Mississippi. Hope I got that right! I'm sure it must be a very beautiful area. I'm glad to hear about your interest in Buddhism and that you've been finding the threads interesting. I'll look forward to more discussion with you in due course and to getting to know you better. As Nina just wrote, Dhamma is everywhere! Metta Sarah (currently in Sydney) --- On Fri, 17/9/10, a_true_lotus wrote: >I wanted to introduce myself. I have been interested in Buddhism for quite some time now, learning much from CDs and DVDs, no teacher, yet. Otherwise, I'm quite boring, am 48, live in a rural area that is near the St. Croix River scenic park. <...> #110054 From: "philip" Date: Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:38 am Subject: [dsg] Re: JC from Dhammawheel has died... philofillet Hello Tadao I was interested in your comments below, which you say might have been somewhat triggered by my comments. I guess it is completely uncontrollable to what degree people will be awake to the truth of suffering in samsara. (I think there is a sutta comparing this sensitivity to a dull horse that must actually feel the whip bite into its skin to wake up compared to a thoroughbred that is alert and heedful to the slightest hint of a command to get moving!) Why do some of us see the messengers of old age, disease, and death and others not, why do some of us find a kind of encouragement in the daily recollection on the above topics (because of the ownership of kamma portion that ends it) while others would consider it dreary, to be avoided. No telling. We are very fortunate to be awake to the Dhamma, such a rare thing. But as for my comments on not feeling that awareness of present realities is relevant or available to me, I wouldn't say that this indicates a resignation to stay in samsara. I personally feel that it is too easy and too comforting to have reflections of fleeting realities etc. Last week I was quite depressed about some things going on with my behaviour, and I found myself solaced by reflecting on fleeting realities, anatta and so on. But I think it was just a kind of mind candy that made me feel that I had some kind of wisdom that took me beyond the mundane miseries I was dealing with. I personally feel that the self-interested impulse that is involved in being aware of fleeting realities is more rooted in atta-ditthi, in a subtler way, than the desire for control involved in returning again and again to a meditation object. This is something that for about 5 years now has consitently got at me - how can one be aware of fleeting realities in daily life without trying to do so in a way that is contrary to the belief in anattaness that one preaches? That is a rhetorical question, I don't know how you feel about being aware of fleeting realities in daily life, all I'm aware of is concepts, maybe sometimes concepts about realities, such as when I think about seeing visible object etc..... I don't know if this it to your point at all. The first part is, the second part is one of my periodic rants, becoming less and less frequent, thankfully! BTW, these days I am thinking a lot about leaving Japan in the future to retire in Thailand. A Japanese pension could go quite far there! But if I recall correctly, you have the nobler aspiration to seek ordination... Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Tadao Miyamoto wrote: > > Hi Khun Nina: > > To you, I have a very naive question, which may be slightly related with the > content of Phil's comment below. > > In one of the verses in Dhammapada, the Buddha says that "--- dukkho jaati > puna-puanag (suffering is the endless-round of life/lives). > > With those living in so-called developed countries, such as the Netherlands and > Japan, it would not be easy to argue that > our life is 'dukkha in its intrinsic senses. > > (Without giving them any pessimistic feelings,) how can you convince those > living comfortably that living/life itself is 'suffering'? > > Is my question clear? > > tadao > > > > ________________________________ > From: philip > <...> > Hi Sarah, thank you for your nice message recognizing JC. > > > b) "Live for understanding". We give ourselves so many goals and aims in life. > >We find so many things precious and live for so much that is just searching for > >objects of lobha. > > ph: if we reach the goals and objects, it just conditions more searching, if we > don't, there can be aversion, so indeed as you say next "all that really matters > in life is the understanding of Dhamma and in particular, the understanding of > the reality appearing at this moment." > > Well, I personally still don't believe in the wisdom of aspring to have > understanding of the reality appearing at this moment, because I think, as I've > said before, that such understanding has not appeared to me yet to be a kind of > understanding that is really there for me. Maybe that will change. I personally > believe that - for me - looking at my conventional behaviour is the way to go. > When behaviour is wholesome in a conventional sense, there is less remorse, and > there are better conditions for concentration and understanding to deepen. I > know we don't agree on this point, and that's fine. We all agree that senstivity > to the Buddha's teaching is a great blessing that we shouldn't waste, and we > celebrate JC's sensitivity to the Dhamma! > .... > #110055 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:48 am Subject: Old age, to Han. nilovg Dear Han, I hope you are now sufficiently recovered, so that I can Lodewijk's question to you. He said that he is distressed by all the difficult things that come with old age, moving so slowly, more ailments, etc. I said: But with Dhamma you can stand it. He still finds it difficult. I said: lack of patience makes it difficult. But better ask Han, how he copes. Lodewijk said that he admires you so much, that you are remarkable and so wise, and that I should write to you about his problem. We are both looking forward to your answer, thank you, Nina. #110056 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:13 am Subject: anapanasati, no 1. nilovg Dear Rob Ep, I am going to Rob K's forum who quotes many letters, also latters addressed to you and Larry, and among these are posts from Jonothan and myself. http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=165 To begin with, breath is actually ruupa, originated from citta. As explained before, bodily ruupas can originate from kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition. So, we have to be sure that there is mindfulness of breath, this specific ruupa produced by citta. That in itself is not easy. It appears at the tip of the nose or the upperlip as hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion or pressure. Jon's post: ---------- Nina. #110057 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:52 am Subject: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best? truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob Ep and Alex, > Op 17-sep-2010, om 5:22 heeft epsteinrob het volgende geschreven: > > > Ten Impediments: VsM III, 29 > > > A dwelling, family, and gain, A class, and building too as fifth, > > > And travel, kin, affliction, books, And supernormal powers: ten." > > > > Books!? Books are an impediment to anapanasati? That's going to be > > a major shock to this group... ;-) > ------ > N: All these things are only impediments to jhaana, not to > vipassanaa, except the last one, this is an impediment to vipassanaa > as well. Actually, books are the responsibility of the scriptures, > but it is an impedimanet recitations, etc. , not for others...> > The person who develops calm to the degree of jhaana should not be > burdened by recitations at such moments. > -------- > Nina. Dear Nina, all, But Jhanas do form an 8th factor of N8P called samma-samadhi and 4 paths to Arhaship that was said by Ven. Ananda do include samadhi in it. With metta, Alex #110058 From: Ken O Date: Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard. From a recording in India. no 1. ashkenn2k Dear Nina >> >> --------- >N: I do not see any problem. As explained above, thinking can be an >object for citta accompanied by pa~n~naa in a following process. >------ KO:? I?know you will say that.??If one say all panna could only understand dhamma, then it is impossible to understand by listening because the sana will not associate the dhamma words with panna.? So when we listen to the word anatta, these concepts will not bring about panna since it cannot be associated panna with the word anatta at that moment of the arising of citta?and not the next citta.? How do one learn.? Why cant panna arise with concepts during citta that thinks?? Did any thought process preventing this or any condition that prevent this from happening. Ken O #110059 From: "connie" Date: Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:44 pm Subject: dear friend, nichiconn came across another new (to me) site with several pages of dhamma talks (english and burmese) & thought (o, distraction! haha) whilst listening to the Myaung Mya Sayadaw "About Conditional Relations", that i'd pass those & the rest - vsm, paritta (pali/english), etc -, along: http://www.tisarana.info/soundlib.html thanks for sharing connie #110060 From: han tun Date: Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:04 pm Subject: Re: Old age, to Han. hantun1 Dear Nina, Nina wrote that he (Lodewijk) said that he is distressed by all the difficult things that come with old age, moving so slowly, more ailments, etc. I said: But with Dhamma you can stand it. He still finds it difficult. I said: lack of patience makes it difficult. But better ask Han, how he copes. Lodewijk said that he admires you so much, that you are remarkable and so wise, and that I should write to you about his problem. We are both looking forward to your answer, thank you, -------------------- Han: Like Lodewijk, I am also distressed with the old age and the illnesses and suffering that accompany it. You may remember what I wrote a few days back. <[When I regained consciousness from the general anesthesia, I felt the most intense pain like I had never felt before in my whole life. I do not want to even think about that pain. But this may not be the last time that I have to experience such pain during the rest of my life. Then, what is the use of having a long life if I were to be afflicted with various illnesses accompanied by pain? I told my grandson (40 years) that my long life up to 80 years or so might be the result of my past kusala kamma; but my long life after 80 years or so must be the result of my past akusala kamma. My grandson did not agree. He told me that if I think that way, I am thinking in a negative way. For each and every day that I live, whether it is the result of past kusala kamma or akusala kamma, I will have the golden opportunity to do meritorious deeds to the extent possible, even between the bouts of pain. I had to concur with him.]> Han: Since then, I am trying *to live with* the old age with all its difficulties. In Mahaanidaana Sutta, the Buddha said to Aananda: "If one is asked: 'Through what condition is there ageing and death?' one should say: 'With birth as condition there is ageing and death'." So, with birth I now have this old age and illnesses. I cannot escape from this ageing process. Even the Buddha could not escape from it. In Mahaaparinibbaana Sutta, the Buddha said: "Aananda, I am now old, worn out, venerable, one who has traversed life's path, I have reached the term of life, which is eighty. Just as an old cart is made to go by being held together with straps, so the Tathaagata's body is kept going by being strapped up. It is only when the Tathaagata withdraws his attention from outward signs, and by the cessation of certain feelings, enters into the signless concentration of mind, that his body knows comfort." But the big difference is that the Buddha could enter into Arahatta Phalasamaapatti to make his body comfortable. But for me I do not have any phalasamaapatti. I only have the courage, patience and the strength to bear it. So, I am now trying to develop these three qualities: courage, patience and strength. From Dhamma point of view, Nina's teachings of Anattaa doctrine become very useful. I tell myself repeatedly that this is not my body, this is not my suffering, and so on. It is a bit difficult, but it helps. I am still weak. I have lost four kilos of body weight. I have not regained my appetite fully. I still cannot sit for long. But I look at the positive aspect of the whole thing. For one more day that I live, even though it may be filled with all the difficulties of old age, I consider that it is the golden opportunity for me to do meritorious deeds. SN 56.48: Chiggala Sutta: The Hole cited the Buddha's famous simile of the blind sea-turtle, illustrating the precious rarity of this human birth, and the precious rarity of the chance to listen to the doctrine and discipline of the Buddha. So I have decided not to waste this precious rare opportunity and will listen to and practice the Buddha's teachings as much as I can, even when I am distressed with the old age and all its difficulties. Respectfully, Han #110061 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: JC from Dhammawheel has died... kenhowardau Hi Phil (and Tadao), Thanks for the question. ---------- <. . .> Ph: > This is something that for about 5 years now has consistently got at me - how can one be aware of fleeting realities in daily life without trying to do so in a way that is contrary to the belief in anattaness that one preaches? ----------- There can be awareness, but there can never be any "one" who is aware. I think that's what you need to understand. --------------- Ph: > That is a rhetorical question, --------------- They are the best kind. Ken H #110062 From: "a_true_lotus" Date: Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction a_true_lotus --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Arianna, > Op 16-sep-2010, om 21:28 heeft a_true_lotus het volgende geschreven: > > > I wanted to introduce myself. I have been interested in Buddhism > > for quite some time now, learning much from CDs and DVDs, no > > teacher, yet. > ------ > N: Welcome here. As Ken H wrote, dhamma is everywhere. This is a good > topic for discussion. How do you see this? > Nina. I'm not sure what you mean. That the Dhamma is everywhere? Yes, I have many "real life" Buddhism lessons, but it seems to bring to me, people who hate me for expressing my real life, in any manner. So, I hesitate. I don't have a Buddhist teacher, but I do have a Vedanta teacher. He recommended that I find one inspirational thing per day and it's been quite the adventure so far. My cats are highly represented, as are the woods that we own near a giant state and national park. Like, yesterday, I went out into the woods, and found an old fallen tree, and within the tree was a little "zen looking" pool of water. That was pretty cool, and was the "one" thing, but I also caught a mouse that was running around in circles, and found a tree that is good to sit on. I like the fact that I'm really getting to know our woods, and now have some names for parts of the woods, like "big birch" and "dead zone". As I don't have my one thing per day yet and it being 3pm, I will soon be out in the woods looking for my one inspirational thing. Maybe it's not a quite Buddhist exercise, but does require mindfulness and a joyous sense of adventure, and it works for me. So, yes the Dhamma is everywhere. Best Ari #110063 From: "a_true_lotus" Date: Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction a_true_lotus > Dear Arianna, > > Welcome to DSG and many thanks for your introduction. I just googled and found that the scenic park you mention is in Minnesota and that the river is a tributary of the Mississippi. Hope I got that right! I'm sure it must be a very beautiful area. Right. And the St. Croix is considered a National Scenic Riverway and so has very little development. I think it has one dam and a few cities that were established prior to it being made a NCR. We live within 5 miles of the river, near the area of Osceola. We do get such a wide variety of birds and other wildlife as it's a magnet for birds and mammals. You can eat the fish from the St. Croix because there's almost no development and therefore no pollution. Most people would not eat a fish out of the Mississippi as even up here, it's far too pollutted! We only moved here after our home in Hugo was destroyed by a tornado, and at that residence, had very few birds come to the feeder, but we get everything out here, hawks, chickadees, kestrals, cardinals and we get 1/2 zone warmerhere due to the river. Prior to our moving here, I had no idea that there was anywhere in Minnesota that is so beautiful. I'd never even visited here, though I've spent decades here. So, a tornado ruined our old home, only for us to find a paradise. > I'm glad to hear about your interest in Buddhism and that you've been finding the threads interesting. > > I'll look forward to more discussion with you in due course and to getting to know you better. > > As Nina just wrote, Dhamma is everywhere! > Especially in CDs and DVDs, no? :-) Best, Ari #110064 From: "a_true_lotus" Date: Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:14 pm Subject: Thanks for the warm welcome! a_true_lotus Thank you all for the warm welcome! I really appreciate it! Now let's talk about some Dhamma! My latest question has been "what is mind"? I get the feeling that Mind is just another sense, and just one of 6 skandas. Best, Ari #110065 From: "bhikkhu3" Date: Fri Sep 17, 2010 4:48 pm Subject: The Uncreated State! bhikkhu5 Friends: An Unconstructed, Unconditioned & Unchanging State! At Savatthi the Blessed Buddha once said to his monks: Bhikkhus, I will teach you the Unconstructed, Unconditioned & Uncreated State, and the very way leading to this unconstructed, unconditioned & uncreated state... Listen and pay alert attention to that, which will lead you to lasting happiness!!! And what, bhikkhus is this unconstructed, unconditioned & uncreated state? The elimination of Greed, the elimination of Hate, & the elimination of Ignorance: This is called the unconstructed, unconditioned & uncreated state of Nibba-na... And what bhikkhus is the good way leading to this unconstructed, unconditioned & uncreated state? Not a place, yet a real state of supreme Bliss! <...> Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [359-62] Section 43: On The Unconsctructed. The way to the unconstructed state: 1-11. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Sama-hita, Sri Lanka * <...> #110066 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:55 pm Subject: Re: should one try one's best? epsteinrob Thanks, pt, for your reply! Best, Robert E. #110067 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:58 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best to get out of a burning house? epsteinrob Thank you, Nina! Best, Robert E. #110068 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:59 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best? epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > ------ > N: All these things are only impediments to jhaana, not to > vipassanaa, except the last one, this is an impediment to vipassanaa > as well. Actually, books are the responsibility of the scriptures, > but it is an impedimanet recitations, etc. , not for others...> > The person who develops calm to the degree of jhaana should not be > burdened by recitations at such moments. Thanks, Nina, this makes sense and is a helpful clarification. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #110069 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:24 am Subject: Re: anapanasati, no 1. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob Ep, > I am going to Rob K's forum who quotes many letters, also latters > addressed to you and Larry, and among these are posts from Jonothan > and myself. > http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=165 Thanks for pulling this up for me. It is a good post with a lot of useful information that is relevant to understanding the sutta. And thanks to Jon, for his analysis. > To begin with, breath is actually ruupa, originated from citta. As > explained before, bodily ruupas can originate from kamma, citta, > temperature or nutrition. > So, we have to be sure that there is mindfulness of breath, this > specific ruupa produced by citta. That in itself is not easy. It > appears at the tip of the nose or the upperlip as hardness, softness, > heat, cold, motion or pressure. Thanks for this information as well. I note that the above rupas can also appear in abdominal breathing awareness, which is an alternate focus for the breath in anapanasati - one towards which I am inclined - but that is another discussion. Jon: ...I hope these comments give you some idea as to why I do not > read the sutta as a general exhortation to practise mindfulness of > breathing as a means of developing satipatthana, but rather as being > directed to those with already-developed samatha where breath is the > object. I do not fully disagree with what Jon says here, and appreciate his analysis of the situation in the sutta. However, I would try putting it in a positive way to see the general relevance of the sutta: The sutta suggests that one who does develop samatha with breath as the object is able to practice mindfulness of breathing as a means of developing satipatthana. That means that - just as those monks did - one may first develop samatha in this way, and then develop satipatthana in the manner described in the sutta. Whether one is able to develop samatha with breath as object, and then develop satipatthana through mindfulness of breathing, would depend on the conditions and propensities the individual has for this practice. I think it does require a lot of consideration and understanding to get the finely balanced "dance" that samatha and sati play in the progression of anapanasati, and it is not one that the "practicer" can control. In conventional terms, a certain amount of samatha and concentration is required before sati can really arise for the breath. After that, the breath not only develops further mindfulness, but also develops greater samatha, which can develop into arising of the jhanas. With the arising of the jhanas, even greater mindfulness develops and can eventually reach full satipatthana, as I understand it. So there is a kind of sequential support in what is developed with breath as object. > (I am of course not saying the sutta has no relevance or application > to the rest of us, but simply that it has to be understood in its > proper context.) I think this analysis is very helpful, and I appreciate having this context to consider. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #110070 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:30 am Subject: Re: Old age, to Han. epsteinrob Hi Han. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > SN 56.48: Chiggala Sutta: The Hole cited the Buddha's famous simile of the blind sea-turtle, illustrating the precious rarity of this human birth, and the precious rarity of the chance to listen to the doctrine and discipline of the Buddha. So I have decided not to waste this precious rare opportunity and will listen to and practice the Buddha's teachings as much as I can, even when I am distressed with the old age and all its difficulties. I don't think we've exchanged posts before, but I just wanted to say that what you say here is inspiring, and that you are setting a good example for the rest of us. This will help me to focus on why I am here when times are difficult. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #110071 From: han tun Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Old age, to Han. hantun1 Dear Robert, Thank you very much for your kind words. I hope to have more discussions with you when I have fully recovered. with metta and respect, Han #110072 From: han tun Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 3:04 am Subject: Farewell rehearsal? hantun1 Dear Nina, Sarah, and all other good friends, When I was in Burma Army as a medical officer, I came across a Battalion Commander who was a very tough person. Whenever he had to go on a combat mission which took him three to six months, he told his wife simply thus: "I will come back, if I do not die". With that, he drove away without looking back at his family. During the entire mission, he never wrote a letter to his family from wherever he was. But as promised, he came back as he did not die in action. When I was taken to the operation room, my family followed me up to the door to the preparation room next to the operation room. There, I looked at them and wanted to say: "I will come back, if I do not die", like the Battalion Commander had said to his family. But I did not say anything, because that would only make them more worried. I just looked at their faces and nodded, and let the staff wheeled me inside to the preparation room. Nina and Sarah know very well how much I am attached to my family members. But on that day, at that moment, strangely, I had no emotion at all. It might have been the last time that I saw their faces. But that thought did not bother me. I have a kind of tranquility which I cannot describe. Why that happened to me at that moment?, and why that tranquility?, I do not know. I only wish that, that was the farewell rehearsal, that would be repeated with the same kind of tranquility, when the real farewell comes for me at my final exit! Respectfully, Han #110073 From: "philip" Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 3:20 am Subject: [dsg] Re: JC from Dhammawheel has died... philofillet Hi Ken > Ph: > This is something > that for about 5 years now has consistently got at me - how can one be aware of fleeting realities in daily life without trying to do so in a way that is contrary to the belief in anattaness that one preaches? > ----------- > > There can be awareness, but there can never be any "one" who is aware. > > I think that's what you need to understand. Ph: Hi Ken, right, I see that I worded the above incorrectly, of course if there is awareness of realities, there is awareness of realities and that is anatta. The awareness can arise. My constant contention is that when we are encouraged to be aware of realities in daily life, we are going to try to do it, and try to do it in away that interferes with the real awareness that could arise. I think we *must* cling to Dhamma, get pleasure out of Dhamma, there is no way around that for people like us who are hanging around on the internet and living busy lives. So I think if I'm going to cling, I'll cling to conventional behaviour, being a good person, avoiding evil deeds and so on. And I find confirmation in the Buddha's teaching that this is a good thing for laypeople to do. As for fleeting awareness, I would rather not even think about having that because when I think about it, it becomes mind candy. If I had the proper conditions for serious meditation, I might have aspiration in that direction, because conditions would be being established for it. But I don't have those conditions. I think those of us who don't have conditions for serious applied practice in the conditions prescribed by the Buddha (Hello roots of trees? Are you there! Oh, there are roots of trees! Hello! Hello empty houses! Sorry! Not this life time, not yet) should abdicate penetrative aspirations. If awareness arises, it arises, but every "should" related to daily life awareness, every encouragement from friends to be aware of realities, they are just invitations to cling in a deep paramattha place rather than in the conventional place that suits the householder. I must say my feeling on this point has remained consistent for a few years, I keep reading posts by people who feel otherwise, I really don't think I'm close--minded, maybe a differnt light will turn on someday! Thanks Ken. Over and out, as TG used to say. Metta, Phil p.s Tadao, if you would like to discuss this, I'm interested to hear what you have to say, thanks, but no pressure. #110074 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:48 am Subject: [dsg] Re: JC from Dhammawheel has died... kenhowardau Hi Phil, Thanks for your reply, I wasn't expecting one. ------------ Ph: > My constant contention is that when we are encouraged to be aware of realities in daily life, we are going to try to do it, and try to do it in away that interferes with the real awareness that could arise. ------------ It might help if you thought in terms of "understanding" rather than of "being aware." ---------------- Ph: > I think we *must* cling to Dhamma, get pleasure out of Dhamma, there is no way around that for people like us who are hanging around on the internet and living busy lives. So I think if I'm going to cling, I'll cling to conventional behaviour, being a good person, avoiding evil deeds and so on. ---------------- Don't do it Phil! Clinging to the idea of becoming a better person might sound like a commendable fault, but there is no such thing as a commendable fault. Just understand right now that there are only dhammas. --------------------- Ph: > And I find confirmation in the Buddha's teaching that this is a good thing for laypeople to do. --------------------- Can you imagine how much I hate to hear that? :-) -------------------------------- Ph: > As for fleeting awareness, I would rather not even think about having that -------------------------------- There is no other kind! But don't think about having it, there is no "one" who has it. --------------------------------------- Ph: > because when I think about it, it becomes mind candy. If I had the proper conditions for serious meditation, I might have aspiration in that direction, because conditions would be being established for it. But I don't have those conditions. I think those of us who don't have conditions for serious applied practice in the conditions prescribed by the Buddha (Hello roots of trees? Are you there! Oh, there are roots of trees! Hello! Hello empty houses! Sorry! Not this life time, not yet) should abdicate penetrative aspirations. ---------------------------------------- I am sorry to see that you have rejected everything K Sujin and friends have told you about meditation. ------------ Ph: > If awareness arises, it arises, but every "should" related to daily life awareness, every encouragement from friends to be aware of realities, they are just invitations to cling in a deep paramattha place rather than in the conventional place that suits the householder. I must say my feeling on this point has remained consistent for a few years, I keep reading posts by people who feel otherwise, I really don't think I'm close--minded, maybe a different light will turn on someday! Thanks Ken. Over and out, as TG used to say. --------------- Don't even think about the future, just understand there are only dhammas now. Now is the only real opportunity you have! Over and out. Ken H #110075 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concentration. was:should one try one's best? nilovg Dear Alex, Op 17-sep-2010, om 17:52 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > But Jhanas do form an 8th factor of N8P called samma-samadhi and 4 > paths to Arhaship that was said by Ven. Ananda do include samadhi > in it. ----- N:True, we find in several suttas under right concentration the jhaanas mentioned. There are many degrees of concentration, and for those who could attain jhaana there was that degree. Also, when concentration is lokuttara it is of the degree of jhaana, because nibbaana is the object. Thus, we have to investigate whether the sutta speaks about the Path that is already lokuttara or not yet. As you say, the four paths to arahatship, thus the maggacitta arising at the moment of enlightenment. Nina. #110076 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: JC from Dhammawheel has died... nilovg Dear Ken H, Phil and Han, Op 18-sep-2010, om 14:48 heeft Ken H het volgende geschreven: > Don't even think about the future, just understand there are only > dhammas now. Now is the only real opportunity you have! ----- N: This makes me think of the series of Ken and me: there is only the present moment. True. Lodewijk was thinking of the future, of old age and how he will cope. That is the future. Life proceeds only in one moment: the present moment. When seeing, life is seeing, when thinking, life is thinking. Each moment is gone immediately. "Life, pleasure, pain, all in one moment" as we read in the Visuddhimagga. As I mentioned before, whenever we speak to Kh Sujin about a problem we have, she says: is there no seeing now? Know this reality. This is all we can do. Thinking about all the possible situations in the future will not be as helpful as investigating this very moment, because only this will bring a little more detachment from me, me, my problem that will arise in the future. Thank you, Ken for all such helpful reminders. Nina. #110077 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Old age, to Han. nilovg Dear Han, Lodewijk said that he was very much impressed by your post and he finds your attitude very good. Op 18-sep-2010, om 2:04 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Han: Like Lodewijk, I am also distressed with the old age and the > illnesses and suffering that accompany it. You may remember what I > wrote a few days back. > > .... I will have the golden opportunity to do meritorious deeds to > the extent possible, even between the bouts of pain. I had to > concur with him.]> ------ N: This makes me think of Dhammapada vs. 53: Today you are writing with kusala citta and you help Lodewijk, Rob Ep, me and others. I like to profit from your meritorious deeds. -------- > > Han: Since then, I am trying *to live with* the old age with all > its difficulties..... I only have the courage, patience and the > strength to bear it. So, I am now trying to develop these three > qualities: courage, patience and strength. > > From Dhamma point of view, Nina's teachings of Anattaa doctrine > become very useful. I tell myself repeatedly that this is not my > body, this is not my suffering, and so on. It is a bit difficult, > but it helps. ------- N: Of course this is difficult, difficult to be really convinced about it. That is why we begin at the beginning, understanding a little more about citta now, even if it is citta with distress. It is real, it is conditioned. ------ > > H: For one more day that I live, even though it may be filled with > all the difficulties of old age, I consider that it is the golden > opportunity for me to do meritorious deeds. ... So I have decided > not to waste this precious rare opportunity and will listen to and > practice the Buddha's teachings as much as I can, even when I am > distressed with the old age and all its difficulties. ------ N: As Lodewijk said, this is a very good attitude. Thank you very much. ----- Han: I only wish that, that was the farewell rehearsal, that would be repeated with the same kind of tranquility, when the real farewell comes for me at my final exit! ------ N: We never know the future, how it will be. How could we know what kamma has in store for us? Our good friend Khun Bong who died, was worrying about her last thoughts before dying, not wanting these to be akusala. It all worked out beyond expectation, and she died with great calm. 'We' cannot do anything. Whatever happens is conditioned. Understanding this means less stress. Nina. #110078 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thanks for the warm welcome! nilovg Dear Arianna, Op 17-sep-2010, om 22:14 heeft a_true_lotus het volgende geschreven: > Now let's talk about some Dhamma! > > My latest question has been "what is mind"? I get the feeling that > Mind is just another sense, and just one of 6 skandas. ------ N: This is an essential question. There is no mind that lasts, there are only mind-moments, and we call them cittas. Seeing is a mind or citta, but it falls away immediately, gone forever. Thinking is another mind or citta, but it does not last. Mind or citta is never lacking. We call the Buddha's teaching Dhamma, but dhamma has several meanings, it can also mean whatever is real. Citta or mind is dhamma, it is real. Also physical phenomena (in Pali rupas) are real, they are dhammas. Dhamma is within us and around us, never absent. There are five khandhas: one khandha is rupa including all physical phenomena, one is feeling, one remembrance, one is mental factors accompanying citta (expect the mental factors feeling and remembrance) and one including all cittas. Your life story is so interesting. First the loss of your house and many unpleasant experiences, and then the new paradise you found. We did good deeds and bad deeds in the past and these bring different results at different times. This is the law of kamma (the deeds) and vipaaka (their results). We should not cling to pleasant experiences, these do not last. And no matter how pleasant the surroundings are, we are still subject to old age, sickness and death. We have to suffer from loss of dear people. Nina. #110079 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 7:05 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: anapanasati, no 1. nilovg Dear Rob Ep, Op 18-sep-2010, om 9:24 heeft epsteinrob het volgende geschreven: > Thanks for this information as well. I note that the above rupas > can also appear in abdominal breathing awareness, which is an > alternate focus for the breath in anapanasati - one towards which I > am inclined - but that is another discussion. ------ N: This is not anapanasati proper as explained in the commentaries. If you prefer this, this depends on your choice. ------ > R: Whether one is able to develop samatha with breath as object, > and then develop satipatthana through mindfulness of breathing, > would depend on the conditions and propensities the individual has > for this practice. ----- N: Well said. ----- > R: In conventional terms, a certain amount of samatha and > concentration is required before sati can really arise for the > breath. After that, the breath not only develops further > mindfulness, but also develops greater samatha, which can develop > into arising of the jhanas. With the arising of the jhanas, even > greater mindfulness develops and can eventually reach full > satipatthana, as I understand it. So there is a kind of sequential > support in what is developed with breath as object. -------- N: I find the sutta and its explanation very subtle and one may easily underestimate its subtleness and difficulty. I think those who can develop jhaana are able to make jhaana the base for insight. In other words, they emerge from jhaana and are aware of jhaanacitta and the cetasikas that accompany it. They develop insight up to enlightenment. I can just continue a little more with the texts. No need to answer each time, you also have your obligations to your family. In this list it is not considered unkind or impolite not to answer mails. ------- Nina. #110080 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 7:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] dear friend, nilovg Dear Connie, Op 17-sep-2010, om 22:44 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > came across another new (to me) site with several pages of dhamma > talks (english and burmese) & thought (o, distraction! haha) whilst > listening to the Myaung Mya Sayadaw "About Conditional Relations" ------ N: Thanks. What are the essential points you got from this? It is difficult for me to listen to these talks. Nina. #110081 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 7:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard. From a recording in India. no 1. nilovg Dear Ken O, Op 17-sep-2010, om 19:36 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > So when we listen to the word > anatta, these concepts will not bring about panna since it cannot > be associated > panna with the word anatta at that moment of the arising of citta > and not the > next citta. How do one learn. > > Why cant panna arise with concepts during citta that thinks? Did > any thought > process preventing this or any condition that prevent this from > happening. ------ N: Yes, when listening to the words about Dhamma there can be pa~n~naa while listening. That is very good and that is the way pa~n~naa can develop so that it can become direct understanding of satipa.t.thaana later on. Nina. #110082 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 7:14 am Subject: anapanasati, 2. nilovg Dear Rob Ep, We should note that there is a division into four sections of four clauses each in this sutta which, in the Visuddhimagga, are marked from I-XVI. I noticed that Larry and Rob Ep were already dealing with the third tetrad, group of four, but now we could start with the first tetrad. Some tetrads deal with calm, some with vipassana, as we shall see. First I quote the sutta. The sutta (K V, Book X, Ch 1, ?1,) states: QUOTE It has been described by the Blessed One as having sixteen bases thus: ?And how developed, bhikkhus, how practised much is concentration through mindfulness of breathing both peaceful and sublime, an unadulterated blissful abiding, banishing at once and stilling evil unprofitable thoughts as soon as they arise? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty place, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, established mindfulness in front of him, ever mindful he breathes in, mindful he breathes out. (I) Breathing in long, he knows ?I breathe in long?; or breathing out long, he knows ?I breathe out long?. (II) Breathing in short, he knows ?I breathe in short?; or breathing out short, he knows ?I breathe out short?. (III) He trains thus ?I shall breathe in experiencing the whole body?; he trains thus ?I shall breathe out experiencing the whole body?. (IV) He trains thus ?I shall breathe in tranquillizing the bodily activity?; he trains thus ?I shall breathe out tranquillizing the bodily activity?. (V) He trains thus ?I shall breathe in experiencing happiness?; he trains thus ?I shall breathe out experiencing happiness?. (VI) He trains thus ?I shall breathe in experiencing bliss?; he trains thus ?I shall breathe out experiencing bliss?. (VII) He trains thus ?I shall breathe in experiencing the mental formation?; he trains thus ?I shall breathe out experiencing the mental formation?. (VIII) He trains thus ?I shall breathe in tranquillizing the mental formation?; he trains thus ?I shall breathe out tranquillizing the mental formation?. (IX) He trains thus ?I shall breathe in experiencing the (manner of) consciousness?; he trains thus ?I shall breathe out experiencing the (manner of) consciousness?. (X) He trains thus ?I shall breathe in gladdening the (manner of) consciousness?; he trains thus ?I shall breathe out gladdening the (manner of) consciousness?. (XI) He trains thus ?I shall breathe in concentrating the (manner of) consciousness?; he trains thus ?I shall breathe out concentrating the (manner of) consciousness?. (XII) He trains thus ?I shall breathe in liberating the (manner of) consciousness?; he trains thus ?I shall breathe out liberating the (manner of) consciousness?. (XIII) He trains thus ?I shall breathe in contemplating impermanence?; he trains thus ?I shall breathe out contemplating impermanence?. (XIV) He trains thus ?I shall breathe in contemplating fading away?; he trains thus ?I shall breathe out contemplating fading away?. (XV) He trains thus ?I shall breathe in contemplating cessation?; he trains thus ?I shall breathe out contemplating cessation?. (XVI) He trains thus ?I shall breathe in contemplating relinquishment?; he trains thus ?I shall breathe out contemplating relinquishment?. In the word commentary to the above quoted sutta the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 223-226) mentions with regard to the first tetrad (group of four clauses, marked I-IV) of the sutta the different stages of insight-knowledge which are developed after emerging from jh?na. We read: QUOTE Those who develop both jh?na and vipassan? should, after the jh?nacitta has fallen away, be aware of n?ma and r?pa, clearly know their different characteristics and develop all stages of insight (Visuddhimagga VIII, 223 and following). It depends on the accumulated wisdom whether the different stages of insight can be realized within a short time or whether they are developed very gradually during a long period of time. ?After he has thus reached the four noble paths in due succession and has become established in the fruition of arahatship, he at last attains to the nineteen kinds of ?Reviewing Knowledge?, and he becomes fit to receive the highest gifts from the world with its deities.? It is evident that only those who had accumulated great wisdom could attain jh?na with ?mindfulness of breathing? as meditation subject, and then attain arahatship. The Visuddhimagga carefully describes the development of jhana, of the jhanafactors which counteract the hindrances. Someone may wonder how we can know that jhana is attained, could it not happen that someone takes for jhana what is a trance but not jhana? This is a matter of panna. Panna and sati are necessary. When there is panna there is no doubt. Panna should know when the citta is kusala and when akusala, and this not in theory, but right at the moment it appears. Panna should know the different jhanafactors which are cetasikas, and not merely in theory. Take the jhanafactors piti, rapture, and sukha, pleasant feeling. In daily life and in the lower stages of jhana they arise together, but can they be clearly distinguished? Only panna can do this. it is the same in the case of vitakka and vicara, applied thinking and discursive thinking. They usually arise together, but, in the development of jhana panna should be able to distinguish them. After emerging from jhana one should know with insight all nama and rupa that appear. All stages of insight have to be developed, beginning with tender insight, distinguishing the characteristic of rupa from the characteristic of nama. How could otherwise the arising and falling away of nama and rupa, impermanence be realized? As I wrote before, one should also have mastery of jhana (Vis. IV, 131). One should be able to attain jhana and emerge from it at any time, in any place. Next time I shall go to the following tetrads. ------- Nina. #110083 From: "Swee Boon" Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:33 am Subject: Re: Old age, to Han. nidive Hi Han, > I am still weak. I have lost four kilos of body weight. I have not regained my appetite fully. I still cannot sit for long. But I look at the positive aspect of the whole thing. For one more day that I live, even though it may be filled with all the difficulties of old age, I consider that it is the golden opportunity for me to do meritorious deeds. I wish to share with you a sutta passage from Nina's Abhidhamma In Daily Life that I found useful to reflect on: ----------------------------------------- http://www.viet.net/~anson/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-10.htm We read in the 'Kindred Sayings' (II, Nidana-vagga, Ch. XV, par. 10, A person) that the Buddha, when he was in Rajagaha on Vulture's Peak, said to the monks: Incalculable is the beginning, monks, of this faring on. The earliest point is not revealed of the running on, faring on of beings, cloaked in ignorance, tied by craving... The bones of one single person, monks, running on, faring on for an aeon would be a cairn, a pile, a heap as great as Mount Vepulla, were there a collector of those bones and the collection were not destroyed. How is this? Incalculable is the beginning, monks, of this faring on. The earliest point is not revealed of the running on, faring on of beings, cloaked in ignorance, tied by craving... Thus spoke the Exalted One. After the Wellfarer had said this, he spoke further: The pile of bones of (all the bodies of) one man Who has alone one aeon lived, Were heaped a mountain high - - so said the mighty seer - - Yes, reckoned high as Vipula To north of Vulture's Peak, crag-fort of Magadha. When he with perfect insight sees The Ariyan Truths: - - what dukkha is and how it comes. And how it may be overpassed, The Ariyan Eightfold Path, the way all ill to abate - - Seven times at most reborn, a man Yet running on, through breaking every fetter down, Endmaker does become of dukkha. ----------------------------------------- May you get well soon and see the Ariyan Truths! Swee Boon #110084 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:34 am Subject: Re: JC from Dhammawheel has died... szmicio Dear Nina and all friends, Thank you for a book, it was very nice suprice when I got it. I will surely re-read it again. It was long time since I have in mind conditions, now I do only remember there is hetu=paccaya. This mind really can forget everything. This so according to Dhamma, to no grasp to what has being learn or read or heard. I think Dhamma is to forget instantly. The biggest rest I dont know the context of this discussion, I know only someone died. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Tadao (Lukas and Azita at end), > Op 11-sep-2010, om 16:14 heeft Tadao Miyamoto het volgende geschreven: > > > With those living in so-called developed countries, such as the > > Netherlands and > > Japan, it would not be easy to argue that > > our life is 'dukkha in its intrinsic senses. > > > > (Without giving them any pessimistic feelings,) how can you > > convince those > > living comfortably that living/life itself is 'suffering'? > ------- > N: Lodewijk says that your question is very good and that he asks > himself the same question. > I said that we can explain that after birth there is old age, > sickness and death and that when loosing dear people we surely > suffer. Lodewijk said, yes, but at the moment of enjoying life one > does not think of these things. > I think we cannot convince others, but when people are ready for it, > we can explain what life really is: one moment of experiencing an > object and then gone. Hearing falls away immediately, and then there > is another moment. There is no moment that lasts. When impermanence > is understood more, it may be clearer what dukkha is: the arising and > falling away of all realities. None of these can be of any refuge. > As the Buddha said: (S IV, , 1,2) what is impermanent is dukkha and > what is dukkha is void of the self. > Dukkha in the deepest sense is hard to penetrate and not everybody is > ready for it. > ----- > Now a question to you. Lukas, from Poland, is very keen to hear more > sayings by the late Ven. Dhammadharo. L: Of course, If something miss me shall you quote again? I also remember the story what Acharn Sujin said to Sarah during Bhante Dhammadhara funeral. Sarah was crying saying something no Alan with us, And Acharn smile, pointing ashes or body(?), just go touch, see just touch and sensible object, nothing more no Bhante Dhammadhara, no Alan, just seeing and hearing. Where is Alan, the seeing is Alan? the touching? This all gone now. I read it long ago, I dont remember much, but still this is so good reminder to me. I am not sure I would be able to put it into practice in reality. I remember also when you Nina told me for the first time that Bhante is dead sine many years. I was so sad and shocked. I had been on the group months and I thought I can go and ask him a question. His Be here now, helped me so much. Then I met Nina, then group, then hear of Acharn Sujin that she still teaches the same Dhamma. Without Be here now on www.dhammastudy.com I never bein able to come to gropu, even I read Ninas text a bit before I havent trust to them. I didnt like that lay person is giving Dhamma. And give a lot of trust to Bhante speach. Now I know this was so silly accumulation :> It could be very dangerous to me if I still think like that I could never met Dhamma I met that help me with misery. But now I can understan such kind of accumulations people have and have more metta. also more upekka all is conditioned, we dont choose our ways. All conditions. Best wishes Lukas #110085 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:43 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: JC from Dhammawheel has died... epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > My constant contention is that when we are encouraged to be aware of realities in daily life, we are going to try to do it, and try to do it in away that interferes with the real awareness that could arise. If I had the proper conditions for serious meditation, I might have aspiration in that direction, because conditions would be being established for it. But I don't have those conditions. I think those of us who don't have conditions for serious applied practice in the conditions prescribed by the Buddha (Hello roots of trees? Are you there! Oh, there are roots of trees! Hello! Hello empty houses! Sorry! Not this life time, not yet) should abdicate penetrative aspirations. > > If awareness arises, it arises, but every "should" related to daily life awareness, every encouragement from friends to be aware of realities, they are just invitations to cling in a deep paramattha place rather than in the conventional place that suits the householder. I have a slightly different point of view about this, although I really appreciate your forthright self-expression and your strong feeling about what makes sense in this lifetime. My feeling is not to be afraid of practice, and not to pre-judge what will work and what won't. Out of all the things that are potentially available - seeing how dhammas arise in everyday life, practicing meditation in various forms, and adjunct practices like yoga - I am keep watching my path develop, and it has to have a little bit of everything, as well as a strong central focus. So I keep discovering what works for me in meditation, and realizing as I study that it is an unfathomably deep and detailed arena, and also being as "awake" as I can as I go through my day and do various activities. The other day I was doing a little light yoga after not practicing for a while, and it occurred to me to apply mindfulness to what I was doing as I moved through the postures. It was a very different experience. One of my main interests these days is in reading texts and commentaries about the anapanasati and satipatthana suttas, and then seeing how that applies to my sitting practice. To be honest, I read very slowly, and I don't sit very ritualistically or consistently, but it has a cumulative effect, and every detail is fascinating to me. After I finish this round of texts - probably take me quite a while - I'm thinking of getting into the Vism sections on anapanasati. I'm finding that every single step in these suttas has a wealth of possibilities. I don't concern myself with whether I have the right sitting conditions, or whether I am even living a wholesome enough life to even qualify for *anything.* If I judged my circumstances or my mental and emotional condition instead of just working with them, I'd give up immediately! I'm really a very slow student, but my propensity is towards contemplation and meditation, so that's what I engage with, and I'm living as a householder, exercising patience, and taking my time. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #110086 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:48 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: JC from Dhammawheel has died... epsteinrob Hi Ken H.! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > I am sorry to see that you have rejected everything K Sujin and friends have told you about meditation. Hm...This is the anti-meditation police, here to say "Keep off of my meditation practice!" :-) I am busy allowing anapanasati and satipatthana to develop, [and just giving the conditions a little push.] I'll let you know how it turns out! :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #110087 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 3:03 pm Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: anapanasati, no 1. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: I find the sutta and its explanation very subtle and one may > easily underestimate its subtleness and difficulty. I think those who > can develop jhaana are able to make jhaana the base for insight. In > other words, they emerge from jhaana and are aware of jhaanacitta and > the cetasikas that accompany it. They develop insight up to > enlightenment. I appreciate this response in any case. I agree with the subtlety of the suttas. As I read them more, I see how much depth and possibility is lodged in each line. Really, each line is rich with understanding that has to be contemplated. And I am starting to see that commentaries are also necessary to get at the full meaning and practice. I am looking at several commentaries slowly, and intend to look at the Vism. sections on anapansati and some commentaries on those as well, in the not-too-distant future. I appreciate the time you've taken on this subject. If there are Abhidhamma commentaries on anapanasati and satipatthana online, I will be happy to see those as well. I will also look at Rob K.'s list on these subjects when I am able. A few years ago a desire for jhana arose in me quite unexpectedly. I haven't attempted to do anything with it. As has been pointed out, it is difficult in modern life to have the conditions for jhana in any case. But that interest developed into some study and practice, and now I have focused on anapansati and satipatthana suttas for now. It seems to be a natural progression which I am quite aware I do not control, but rather I am following it. I enjoy the search, to see what comes, and I have to say that I even enjoy the uncertainty of where it leads. > I can just continue a little more with the texts. No need to answer > each time, you also have your obligations to your family. In this > list it is not considered unkind or impolite not to answer mails. > ------- I appreciate this and will keep it in mind. Sometimes I will do this - not reply - so I can keep up and maintain my involvement here. That is a good understanding! And I understand as well if you do not have time to reply on certain subjects. I appreciate all that you have contributed to my understanding the last few days! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #110088 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 3:06 pm Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: anapanasati, no 1. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: I find the sutta and its explanation very subtle and one may > easily underestimate its subtleness and difficulty. I think those who > can develop jhaana are able to make jhaana the base for insight. In > other words, they emerge from jhaana and are aware of jhaanacitta and > the cetasikas that accompany it. They develop insight up to > enlightenment. I wanted to add one other short note: dsg has been helping me to see the value of study and contemplation, even in terms of practice. There was a time when I thought that just sitting down and following the breath was enough. Now I see it is an intensely subtle, as you say, and deep, study. Suddenly I have a thirst for understanding, and for referring to and contemplating the commentaries in these areas. I want to know what I am looking at, and what I am practicing, in more depth. That has contributed a lot and I think I will move forward with more intelligence because of this. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #110089 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 3:16 pm Subject: Re: anapanasati, 2. epsteinrob Hi Nina. Wow! Thank you for this. I will follow this along with great interest. I find it strangely coincidental that I just finished writing that I wanted to read the Vism on anapanasati and more commentaries, and then the next thing I turned to was this! This gift from you... Thank you very much! Best, Robert E. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob Ep, > > We should note that there is a division into four sections of four > clauses each in this sutta which, in the Visuddhimagga, are marked > from I-XVI. I noticed that Larry and Rob Ep were already dealing with > the third tetrad, group of four, but now we could start with the > first tetrad. Some tetrads deal with calm, some with vipassana, as we > shall see. > First I quote the sutta. ... = = = = = = = = #110090 From: han tun Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Old age, to Han. hantun1 Dear Nina, I thank Lodewijk very much for liking my post. > > Han: I only wish that, that was the farewell rehearsal, that would be repeated with the same kind of tranquility, when the real farewell comes for me at my final exit! > Nina: We never know the future, how it will be. How could we know what kamma has in store for us? Our good friend Khun Bong who died, was worrying about her last thoughts before dying, not wanting these to be akusala. It all worked out beyond expectation, and she died with great calm. 'We' cannot do anything. Whatever happens is conditioned. Understanding this means less stress. Han: I appreciate your above comments. But I am only an ordinary worldling, a mere puthujjana. As such, I still have my weaknesses. I know that 'We' cannot do anything, and whatever happens is conditioned. But as a puthujjana, I live on 'hope'. I 'hope' that this will happen to me, or that will happen to me. Whether it happens or not is another matter. I will write another episode in relation to my operation. There again, you will find my 'wishing' to happen in the future. Please read that with tolerance. Respectfully, Han #110091 From: han tun Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Old age, to Han. hantun1 Dear Swee, Thank you very much for your kind advice. I will study it carefully. with metta and respect, Han --- On Sat, 9/18/10, Swee Boon wrote: I wish to share with you a sutta passage from Nina's Abhidhamma In Daily Life that I found useful to reflect on: ----------------------------------------- http://www.viet.net/~anson/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-10.htm May you get well soon and see the Ariyan Truths! Swee Boon #110092 From: "bhikkhu3" Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 3:36 pm Subject: The Samsaric Trap! bhikkhu5 Friends: Dangerous are the Temptations of Samsara! One intent on rescuing himself from the mud of samsara cannot fulfill his ideal if he relaxes energy! How much less one who aspires to rescue this entire world? Such one should reflect: "It is quite right for you to escape from this Suffering of Samsara by your own power, since so long as you only remains a foolish worldling, then the swarm of mental defilements will be as difficult to control as a flock of mad elephants! The bad behaviour caused by them is like a killer following behind with a drawn sharp sword! The painful destinations resulting from such bad behaviour is consequently and constantly just in front of you with wide open doors! Furthermore evil and stupid friends are always around to tease you to do these wrong, yet tantalizing and tempting actions! One thus never knows what one might do in the future existences and the catastrophic inevitable effects thereof! Thus: Save yourself before you loose this precious human opportunity! Choose the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha and the Noble 8-fold Way, before it is too late again, again, again, again, again, again, and ever again! Potentially Endless is this round of Rebirths! <... Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * <..> #110093 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:23 pm Subject: Re: JC from Dhammawheel has died... kenhowardau Hi Robert E, I wish I could mind my own business, and let you and other meditators peacefully mind yours. :-) The trouble is the two are incompatible. I can't discuss Dhamma without rejecting formal meditation. That would be the same as practising satipatthana without denying the existence of self. It can't be done! Ken H #110094 From: "philip" Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:43 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: JC from Dhammawheel has died... philofillet Hi Rob Thanks. I think actually we're all of us here on the right track. I emphatically reject Sarah and other's opinion that they would have been worse off if they had come across the wrong Dhamma rather than the right Dhamma they practice. (Not only because it is kind of insulting to the people they converse with in an otherwise friendly way.) All of us who are moved along by the Buddha's teaching, whether in diluted and corrupted forms (within reason, of course) or not, have a kind of food for the mind that conditions non-beastly behaviour. And that is a great starting point. People who go off to a retreat for 10 days than try to install meditation into their busy daily lives will not be practicing in line with the Buddha's teaching re bhavana, but they are more likely to be practicing within sila, and praise the Buddha for that! Students of A. Sujin who think, think, think about paramattha dhammas are likely to be not doing much more than think, think, thinking but think, think, thinking about paramattha dhammas is a good and I daresay noble thing to think, think, think about! We are all fortunate to be sensitive to the Buddha's teaching, we are in the door. Metta, Phil >your strong feeling about what makes sense in this lifetime. > > My feeling is not to be afraid of practice, and not to pre-judge what will work and what won't. Out of all the things that are potentially available - seeing how dhammas arise in everyday life, practicing meditation in various forms, and adjunct practices like yoga - I am keep watching my path develop, and it has to have a little bit of everything, as well as a strong central focus. So I keep discovering what works for me in meditation, and realizing as I study that it is an unfathomably deep and detailed arena, and also being as "awake" as I can as I go through my day and do various activities. The other day I was doing a little light yoga after not practicing for a while, and it occurred to me to apply mindfulness to what I was doing as I moved through the postures. It was a very different experience. > > #110095 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:07 pm Subject: Re: JC from Dhammawheel has died... epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Robert E, > > I wish I could mind my own business, and let you and other meditators peacefully mind yours. :-) > > The trouble is the two are incompatible. I can't discuss Dhamma without rejecting formal meditation. That would be the same as practising satipatthana without denying the existence of self. It can't be done! Do you have any idea how utterly nonsensical that is? "Dhamma" is not your particular interpretation of it, even if you believe it is correct. "Dhamma" is the Buddha's teaching for all Buddhists, and there is no doubt that meditation, which he did not call "formal meditation" as you do - a title that was made up to deride the practice, and which doesn't actually exist - was a central focus of what he taught when he actually walked the earth for 40 years. You cannot say that the practice that the Buddha engaged in to reach enlightenment himself - sitting under the Bodhi tree doing anapanasati in the lotus posture, and that he and every one of his disciples practiced their entire lives, is incompatible with *his* teaching. I am sorry, but the brilliant commentators you have chosen to follow instead of the Buddha I'm sure have a wonderful explanation for why the Buddha's teaching is the opposite of what he actually taught, but the Buddha's own practice comes first. Even the senior folks here acknowledge that under the right conditions, anapanasati and satipatthana as meditation practices *do* carry the meditator all the way to enlightenment, as we have currently been discussing, so your wholesale rejection of all meditation is out of line. May your kamma and conditions bring you more pleasant vedanas than the ones in this post. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #110096 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:09 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: JC from Dhammawheel has died... epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Rob > > Thanks. > > I think actually we're all of us here on the right track. I emphatically reject Sarah and other's opinion that they would have been worse off if they had come across the wrong Dhamma rather than the right Dhamma they practice. (Not only because it is kind of insulting to the people they converse with in an otherwise friendly way.) All of us who are moved along by the Buddha's teaching, whether in diluted and corrupted forms (within reason, of course) or not, have a kind of food for the mind that conditions non-beastly behaviour. And that is a great starting point. > People who go off to a retreat for 10 days than try to install meditation into their busy daily lives will not be practicing in line with the Buddha's teaching re bhavana, but they are more likely to be practicing within sila, and praise the Buddha for that! Students of A. Sujin who think, think, think about paramattha dhammas are likely to be not doing much more than think, think, thinking but think, think, thinking about paramattha dhammas is a good and I daresay noble thing to think, think, think about! We are all fortunate to be sensitive > to the Buddha's teaching, we are in the door. I think that is a good way to look at it, and is comforting too. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #110097 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:16 pm Subject: An afternoon with Pt - round 3 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Pt came over by ferry to where we now live in Manly, Sydney for the third time! It was really a response to a cry for help from me - I've been having lots of computer/printer problems since returning here and being new, we don't really know where else to turn for help! (It turns out Pt is writing a thesis on Acoustics - no wonder he's an expert on recording and the like.) Anyway, the deal was that he could only come to give assistance if we were allowed to give him some snacks and discuss Dhamma in between the techno sessions working with computers, recording equipment and anything else gadgety that he sets his eyes on:-) He seemed to enjoy the ferry ride this time on the harbour - a beautiful sunny day, the horn blaring to remind the sailing dinghies to make way. After a delicate serve of lunch and a less delicate serve of chocolate cake (we're learning!!), he and Jon worked on the computer issues until I cried out it was Dhamma discussion break--time. Main topics included (and to be elaborated on by Pt or Jon or both): - a discussion on his discussion with Ken O on panna/satipatthana and objects of reatlities and concepts. - Really excellent qus from Pt on awareness of realities as opposed to concepts of realities. How to...? Perhaps the wrong question. A matter of understanding what appears right now, not "how to?". And if that reality right now is doubt or thinking or confusion, so be it. It's a path of detachment, not attachment, of understanding, not of trying to be a better person. I think there was a suggestion that it's very tough to accept and understand what appears rather than what we'd like to appear. Yes, that's the path....what appears right now, as an element, as anatta. _ How a moment of right intellectual understanding can be known and not mistaken. The significance of it and how it's different from academic knowledge. More for Pt and Jon to write about:-) - Energy or effort, so difficult for others to understand - refs to putting forth of effort are to the development of wholesome quality rather than a conventional idea of trying to do something good, that is something conventionally right. More techno work, more choco cake for some, chicken soup for others (at his favourite spot, surrounded by pliers, wires, amps and other assorted metal pieces) and then a leisurely walk by the sea, down the Corso and back to the ferry, chatting about: - small talk and different accumulations. Can we be considerate and understanding with elderly people, with friends, listening and chatting about what interests them, even though we have little to contribute or little interest in the topics? Metta! And Ken H, this visit was planned with one day's notice, but Pt (and we) are looking forward to having you join us next time! Also, anyone else in Syd or Aus! Thanks again, Pt - it's such a pleasure to have you around with your helpful skills, kindness and great dhamma qus and comments! Metta Sarah ===== #110098 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiitisutta 327, 6.18-19 and commentary. sarahprocter... Dear Nina & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: These suttas remind us of what is really important in life. Wealth > as to worldly matters is meaningless compared to the ariyan wealth of > confidence, siila, hiri, ottappa, suta (learning), caaga > (relinquishment), pa~n~naa. ... S: So very true and there are such gems in these suttas and the commentary notes you translate. As I mentioned, K.Sujin (in Kaeng Krajan) kept stressing that all that was important was "to live for understanding". She mentioned that this (exact) phrase is given in the texts. Have you come across the Pali for it? Metta Sarah ===== #110099 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:52 pm Subject: Re: Gall Bladder Surgery Update sarahprocter... Dear Han, It's wonderful to hear from you again and to know that you're making a steady recovery. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > When I regained consciousness from the general anesthesia, I felt the most intense pain like I had never felt before in my whole life. I do not want to even think about that pain. But this may not be the last time that I have to experience such pain during the rest of my life. Then, what is the use of having a long life if I were to be afflicted with various illnesses accompanied by pain? .... S: And not just in this life. How many lifetimes have we endured such shocking pain repeatedly, such as in the hell planes? And how many more lifetimes will we continue to endure and suffer such pain again and again? May it be a reminder for all of us about how the only real relief is the end of samsara. ... > > I told my grandson (40 years) that my long life up to 80 years or so might be the result of my past kusala kamma; but my long life after 80 years or so must be the result of my past akusala kamma. My grandson did not agree. He told me that if I think that way, I am thinking in a negative way. For each and every day that I live, whether it is the result of past kusala kamma or akusala kamma, I will have the golden opportunity to do meritorious deeds to the extent possible, even between the bouts of pain. I had to concur with him. At 40 years of age, my grandson has become a wiser man than me! ... S: I believe this would be the fine grandson we met? (Please remind me of his name.) You mentioned your experience just as you were taking leave of your family and entering the operation theatre - how peaceful you felt. I had a similar experience a few years ago when I thought I was going to drown. We were on a very remote beach with my mother. She was collecting shells on the sand as Jon and I swam. I got into serious trouble in a whirlpool. For a short while I was just ready to give up and felt fine and peaceful too, but then thought about how terrible it would be for Jon and my mother and this inspired me to fight to survive. My mother never knew.... > -------------------- > > Once again, I thank all my friends very much for sending me their metta, karuna and best wishes, during my difficult time. ... S: As Nina and others have said, we all appeciate your kindness, metta and wise reminders to us all. Another short story: This morning Jon and I joined a group of locals who swim at sunrise in the ocean to another beach. The water is very cold at this time of year and the sea is quite choppy. I was the last to arrive (an achievement for me to make the swim at all), and then walked back (rather than swim back) with Bruce. Bruce, it turns out, is 81 yrs young and was diagnosed two years ago with inoperable prostate cancer that had spread to his lungs. He's still cheery, still swims every day, is still welcoming to newcomers like myself and had no apparent self-pity at all. We have a lot to learn form our senior Warriors like yourself and Bruce. Metta Sarah ====== #110100 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:53 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddha's suicide DN16 sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > I never stop saying this. understand Abhidhamma, you understand dhamma, you > understand sutta words.? One have little doubt why such and such will happen and > will not happen.? I have full faith that any Arahants will never able to kill > themselves because for the fact that there is no dosa cetasikas. .... S: Nice to agree and hear you express this so well... Metta Sarah ======== #110101 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:04 am Subject: Re: q. sarahprocter... Dear Fabian, #109678 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "chandrafabian" wrote: > FABIAN: Dear Sarah, I think we understood awareness in different way. > the awareness that should be developed by Vipassana Bhavana is not aware of the object of the senses, but rather aware of the activity of the senses. > > for example: suppose you aware of a can of coke in front of you, this is aware of the object of seeing. .... S: Awareness cannot be aware of a can of coke. The object of seeing is just the visible, visible object. Only thinking can think about a can of coke. > In Vippassana bhavana we should aware of our mental activity of seeing, not aware of the object of seeing. .... S: Awareness has to be aware of namas and rupas. If there is not awareness of visible object (as distinct from seeing), there will not be any vipassana. SN 35:23 "The All" "....And what, bhikkhus, is the all? The eye and forms.....etc" SN 35:27 "Full Understanding" "Bhikkhus, without directly knowing and fully understanding the all, without developing dispassion towards it and abandoning it, one is incapable of destroying suffering. "And what, bhikkhus, is the all....? "The eye and forms and eye-consciousness and things to be cognized by eye-consciousness....." (B.Bodhi transl) **** Metta Sarah ======= #110102 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:14 am Subject: Re: FUNDAMENTALS sarahprocter... Hi Colette, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > S: "...but the Buddha taught the truth that there is a RIGHT and a WRONG!" > > colette: I accept that. > ----------------------------- > > My original post strictly concerned itself with the EFFECTS that PRE-SUPPOSITIONS, that PRE-JUDGEMENTS, that CONDITIONING, all have on the behavior of the practitioner as the practitioner decides which category to place the object in question, in. > > I WAS SAYING AND MAINTAIN THAT ORIGINAL POSITION, that our interpretation of RIGHT & WRONG, what the Buddha did and did not say, etc, ARE ALL CONDITIONED AND RESULTANT FROM THE CONDITIONING THAT THEY ARE PUT IN THRU THE LENSE OF THE PRESENT DHARMA and not the past dharma. > ----------------------------------------- S: I completely agree with you that all our ways of thinking, our interpretations of RIGHT & WRONG (or anything else, for that matter) "are all conditioned". I would say that these habitual ways of thinking or understanding are conditioned by similar ways of thinking in the past. .... > > S: "...whether kindness is right or wrong, whether greed or anger is right or wrong and so on." > > colette: THESE ARE ALL ABSTRACT, THEY ARE NOT CONCRETE RUPA, BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL INTANGIBLE NOUMENA OR NAMA. > ------------------------------------------- S: You are correct in saying that kindness, greed and anger are all namas and thereby "intangible" by touch, at least. They are namas because they can experience. Rupas, such as sound or tangible object cannot experience anything. However, just because greed or anger are namas, doesn't make them "abstract", in the sense that they are very real when they arise. They can be known at such times as being unwholesome or WRONG. There cannot be kindness or gentleness, for example, when there is greed or anger. ... > colette:....How about SUICIDE? Is suicide RIGHT? .... S: Thoughts of suicide are motivated by dosa or anger. Therefore, like other kinds of anger, it is conditioned, but unwholesome or WRONG! Metta Sarah ======= #110103 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A lovely dream about Kaeng Krajan! sarahprocter... Hi Sukin, Many thanks for all your kind comments. I'm sure you're still having helpful discussions in Bangkok! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sukinderpal wrote: > Yes, when there is understanding, there is appreciation. But with me, > because there is so much attachment to self, occasionally at a later > time, there is aversion to the situation given the impression of how > negligible the understanding is. And I may think that at least I don't > fall prey to ideas about 'doings', but then attachment to self is > attachment to self. So in this sense I'm no different from those who > react and consequently end up following some 'formal practice'. :-( .... S: Yes, I know what you mean. So often there is a trying to understand the story of dhammas and a failure to really see the ignorance and wrong view arising at such times. I liked the reminders about how the Teachings are really to point out the present ignorance. It's not always what we want to hear:-) ... > >S: Stories, dreams, occasional snippets of understanding.... > > May we all learn to see more and more ignorance in a day through the understanding of the realities appearing now, such as visible object, hardness, temperature, feeling and so on. > > Sulin:> And this is appreciated exactly when and if any degree of understanding > arises. ;-) ... S: Yes, "when and if...." ... >>S: Forget whether he and Jon were still discussing > > his different view from Ken H on Jatakas ... .... Sukin:> I wonder though, who's side he is on in this debate about the Jatakas. ;-) .... S: On the side of understanding dhammas now, of course:-) .... > > The dreams go on in samsara.... hopefully others will join us next time... > > > > Like Ken H for example. :-) ... S: His ears must be burning these days.....:-) Metta Sarah ======= #110104 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:18 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: anapanasati, no 1. nilovg Dear Rob Ep, Op 19-sep-2010, om 0:06 heeft epsteinrob het volgende geschreven: > I wanted to add one other short note: dsg has been helping me to > see the value of study and contemplation, even in terms of > practice. There was a time when I thought that just sitting down > and following the breath was enough. Now I see it is an intensely > subtle, as you say, and deep, study. Suddenly I have a thirst for > understanding, and for referring to and contemplating the > commentaries in these areas. I want to know what I am looking at, > and what I am practicing, in more depth. That has contributed a lot > and I think I will move forward with more intelligence because of > this. ------ N: I appreciate this attitude. It often happens that people think of just practice, without any study of what they are doing. Nina. #110105 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:19 am Subject: anapanasati 3. nilovg Dear Rob Ep,. -------- now we come to the second tetrad, group of four, of the sutta on Mindfulness of Breathing, the Visuddhimagga comments upon: QUOTE V) He trains thus I shall breathe in experiencing happiness; he trains thus I shall breathe out experiencing happiness. (VI) He trains thus Date: Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiitisutta 327, 6.18-19 and commentary. nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 19-sep-2010, om 8:34 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > As I mentioned, K.Sujin (in Kaeng Krajan) kept stressing that all > that was important was "to live for understanding". She mentioned > that this (exact) phrase is given in the texts. Have you come > across the Pali for it? ------- N: Not yet. So well said, a good reminder. And I keep this in mind. Nina. #110107 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Gall Bladder Surgery Update nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 19-sep-2010, om 8:52 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > I was the last to arrive (an achievement for me to make the swim at > all), and then walked back (rather than swim back) with Bruce. > Bruce, it turns out, is 81 yrs young and was diagnosed two years > ago with inoperable prostate cancer that had spread to his lungs. ------- N: Is it the same Bruce who was on the list long ago? ----- Nina. #110108 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] An afternoon with Pt - round 3 nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 19-sep-2010, om 8:16 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Really excellent qus from Pt on awareness of realities as opposed > to concepts of realities. How to...? Perhaps the wrong question. A > matter of understanding what appears right now, not "how to?". And > if that reality right now is doubt or thinking or confusion, so be > it. It's a path of detachment, not attachment, of understanding, > not of trying to be a better person. I think there was a suggestion > that it's very tough to accept and understand what appears rather > than what we'd like to appear. Yes, that's the path....what appears > right now, as an element, as anatta. ------ N: Thanks for your delightful description of Pt's visit. You are lucky to have him. Indeed, 'how to' does not help much. People ask: how to be aware. Very good the breaks of snacks and dhamma talk! Nina. #110109 From: han tun Date: Sun Sep 19, 2010 3:14 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Gall Bladder Surgery Update hantun1 Dear Sarah, I am very glad to hear from you after quite a long time. Your post gives me a new strength to bear all these difficulties. Yes, we have endured such shocking pain repeatedly, and we will continue to endure and suffer such pain again and again in the samsara. I only pray for the *strength* to bear all these. I also thank you for sharing with me your experience a few years ago when you thought you were going to drown, and how thinking of Jon and your mother had given you the inspiration to fight for survival. I also like your short story about Bruce, who is 81 yrs *young* and who was diagnosed two years ago with inoperable prostate cancer that had spread to his lungs. He must be a very tough person who can still be cheery, still swims every day, and who had no apparent self-pity at all. I really admire him. Yes, my grandson is the same person you had met. His name is Maung Thet Oo. He remembers you and often speaks about his discussions with you. with metta and respect, Han #110110 From: han tun Date: Sun Sep 19, 2010 3:47 am Subject: Recollecting the past activities hantun1 Dear Nina, Sarah, and all other good friends, There is a very famous Buddha statue at Shwedagon pagoda in Yangon. It is called Padamya-myet-shin (Ruby-eyed Buddha). It is situated in a small cave on the upper terrace of Shwedagon. Women are not allowed to go up to the upper terrace. Even for us, we must have a special pass, valid for one year, issued by the Pagoda Trustees on the recommendation of the local Township authorities. It is open for special pass holders on Saturdays, Sundays, and other religious days. There is a small enclosure, at the front of the Padamya-myet-shin, which can accommodate about 30 persons at a time. As the Buddha statue is in a small cave, only a few persons, at one time, can see it, i.e. only when they are directly in front of it. So it is essential that one must go very early, stand at the front of the queue and rush to the place as soon as the gate opens. Whenever I went to Yangon, I always went to this place to worship the Padamya-myet-shin and contemplate on the Nine Attributes of the Buddha, with the prayer beads, looking at the face of the Padamya-myet-shin all the time. I also have the photograph of the Padamya-myet-shin at our home shrine, in front of which I contemplate daily on the Nine Attributes of the Buddha. As I practice this daily, I can see the Padamya-myet-shin vividly in my mind, even when my eyes are closed. Now, when I was about to be wheeled into the operation theatre, I tried to visualize my activities at the Shwedagon pagoda when I went up to worship the Padamya-myet-shin. I could visualize all my activities at the Shwedagon pagoda, and I could see them very vividly. But when I tried to visualize the face of the Padamya-myet-shin (which had been like an acquired image to me) I could not do so. I was surprised and disappointed. I thought it was a bad omen. I thought the Padamya-myet-shin had forsaken me. I thought I was going to die on the operating table. But, I was not afraid. I thought if I had to die on the operating table, that would be a very peaceful exit, without knowing anything. So, I dispelled the thought of the inability to visualize the face of the Padamya-myet-shin, and instead I concentrated on my activities at the Shwedagon pagoda. I lost consciousness under the effects of the general anesthesia, while visualizing my activities at the Shwedagon pagoda. I do not know how my recollecting my meritorious activities at the Shwedagon had any effect on the success of my operation, but I am still very happy for the fact that I was able to recollect and visualize my wholesome activities when I needed to do so. I only wish that I would be able to do the same, i.e., recollecting my meritorious activities, during my dying moments. Respectfully, Han #110111 From: "Swee Boon" Date: Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:49 am Subject: Re: Recollecting the past activities nidive Hi Han, > I could visualize all my activities at the Shwedagon pagoda, and I could see them very vividly. But when I tried to visualize the face of the Padamya-myet-shin (which had been like an acquired image to me) I could not do so. I was surprised and disappointed. I thought it was a bad omen. I thought the Padamya-myet-shin had forsaken me. I thought I was going to die on the operating table. Sorry for my being rude, but I am curious about 'who' had forsaken you. In my opinion, what you are doing are lots of unwholesome activities. You are clinging to the belief that the rites & rituals performed at the Shwedagon pagoda and in front of the image of the Padamya-myet-shin could purify yourself. But when you could not visualize the image of Padamya-myet-shin, your belief appears to be shattered at that moment which was why you thought you were going to die on the operating table. What you should do is to contemplate, discern and comprehend the Four Noble Truths: This is dukkha: birth, aging & death. This is the origination of dukkha: craving. This is the cessation of dukkha: from the complete extinguishing of craving comes the cessation of all future cycles of birth, aging & death. This is the practice leading to the cessation of dukkha: the Noble Eightfold Path. Having seen these Four Noble Truths, perhaps the Shwedagon pagoda will no longer be seen as something as sacred as it had been made out to be (hey, it's man-made after all), and the image of Padamya-myet-shin does not actually save one from unhappy destinations. Swee Boon #110112 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:48 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Old age, to Han. glenjohnann Dear Han, Nina, Lodewijk We are fortunate to be able to see your discussion here. I sometimes think of how people bear the suffering that comes with older age or with unexpected illness before older age. Your comments are such an excellent reminder that this life presents a nonetheless a "golden opportunity" right up to the end. One cannot plan or rehearse how it will be during painful and difficult times, however, with understanding one can appreciate that all things are conditioned. The more listening to the Dhamma well taught and considering of what one has heard, the more conditions there may be for kusala and a true understanding of the reality arising now in the future. We like to think that kusala will arise during difficult times - and we have an almost irresistible tendency to try to "do" something about it. More understanding helps us to appreciate the value of kusala. We cannot know what will arise in the future. We are fortunate to have the opportunity to read, listen to and discuss the Dhamma now. Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Han, > Lodewijk said that he was very much impressed by your post and he > finds your attitude very good. > Op 18-sep-2010, om 2:04 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > > > Han: Like Lodewijk, I am also distressed with the old age and the > > illnesses and suffering that accompany it. You may remember what I > > wrote a few days back. > > > > .... I will have the golden opportunity to do meritorious deeds to > > the extent possible, even between the bouts of pain. I had to > > concur with him.]> > ------ > #110113 From: Ken O Date: Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best? ashkenn2k Dear Ken H >--------- > >Yes, sorry about that. And it goes completely against your new theory on >concepts. :-) > KO:? That is nothing new about concepts.? Because concepts do arise with panna.? Panna arise also at jhanas be it mundane or supradmundane.? Pse read the CMA.? Ken O #110114 From: Ken O Date: Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best? ashkenn2k Dear pt > >pt: I'm not quite sure what exactly is your objection here? In the previous >post, I've described my understanding of how insight proper happens both in case > >of (a) sense-door followed by mind-door processes, as well as (b) purely >mind-door processes following each other. So, in case of thinking, for example, >which has some concept as the object in one mind-door, that thinking as a dhamma > >(vitaka), or any other dhamma that participates in thinking (sanna, vicara, >etc), can become the object of the following mind-door process with panna. > KO:? I used to think in such a way until I relook at the process of concepts with dhamma, because panna can arise with concepts.? Panna arise?whether the object of a citta is a concept or dhamma.? Simple example is panna could arise in mundane jhanas.? It is not exclusively dhamma.? At the moment of concept, citta already think of it, panna could arise with citta that think of the concept.???? >pr: I'm not quite sure to what your objection relates to here either? As I think > >we agree, panna at the conceptual level does not liberate - it's not insight >proper, so I was hoping to stop discussing that case. You keep returning to it >though, so I'm not quite sure what exactly is not clear there? As mentioned >before, I think that sort of panna is important for the development, because it >conditions panna of insight strength in the future. But still it's not insight >proper yet, and I thought we were discussing insight proper. KO:?I am not talking about insight at Vipassana level,? I am talking about before vipassana level >pt: I agree KenO, but your conclusion here is a bit of a strawman - I never >really argued against panna at the conceptual level. All I was saying was that >insight proper would have a dhamma as object of citta, while you were saying >that it can be a concept too. You haven't yet provided an argument that would >convince me that insight proper (so panna of strength number 2 and 3) can have a > >concept as the object too - I thought that was your claim at the start - at >least that's how I understood you. KO:?I thought I was very clear,?that your insight proper is only at Vipassana,? During vipassana, it is only dhamma as object of citta. > > >So, to reiterate, I agree that panna at the conceptual level is important (e.g. >the right conceptual understnading that KenH and Sukin keep mentioning), but >insight proper happens only with a dhamma as object, as I understand, regardless > >of whether it is in javana cittas of a sense-door process followed by a >mind-door process, or in javana cittas of a purely mind-door process following a > >previous mind-door process. KO:? Nope, their views?are at even during conecptual understanding, the object of panna must be a dhamma which I disagreed because the text do not support such a view.?? Ken O #110115 From: "philip" Date: Sun Sep 19, 2010 1:27 pm Subject: Re: Recollecting the past activities philofillet Dear Han This is interesting. Having spent a lot of time this summer with my mother, who has descended in to Alzheimer disease and is "gone", in a sense, and having a high genetic probability to get the disease myself, I can say first of all that it's great that you have been able to maintain mental clarity and remembrance of the Dhamma into your old age. That is such a treasure. Of course there is no telling what cittas will be arising in the last few moments. I am thinking that I would like to start now establishing a kind of link between listening to Pali recitation and positive reflections on Dhamma. I listen to the Dhammapada in Pali and this evening I was downloading Sayadaw U Silnananda reciting some of the protective verses. I have heard that in Asian countries people have monks chant verses at their deathbeds, and some people in the West think that that is kind of uncool, trying to manipulate the last moments, oh such clinging! etc. But I think it makes sense. I have listened to the Pali Dhammapada so often now that it is becoming so familiar. The other day I was taking the train to work and I listened to monks chanting the Five Recollections on old age, sickness etc in Thai and Pali. It really kind of lit up my mood and made me more generous and productie at work. I may live in Thailand when I am old, so I want to start already to make myself more familiar with the content of Thai chanting. Does this mean I am clinging to the desire for a wholesome rebirth? You bet it does! And thank the Buddha for that! One reason I place a lot of emphasis on conventional morality is that I want to reduce the possibility that reflection on bad deeds will arise for me later in life. At this point if I were to, for example, be hit by a truck while cyclling to work and were lying on the curb dying, there would be no bad deeds to reflect on from my recent past, I have a very clean slate the last few years. In fact, there are few bad deeds, period. I hope there will be reflection on the great teaching work I have done over the last two decades, helping people to learn English. I hope I do more productive and less controversial Dhamma discussion over the next few decades. (DSG lends itself to controversy because of its founding teacher's unconventional views, but it is not a problem at other forums..) Who knows what reflections will arise? If Alzheimer hits, the "who knows?" is even more unknown. Well, anyways, I'm glad you survived the surgery and can continue to add more wholesome activities, I feel it increases the probability that you will have wholesome reflections in your last moments. Metta, Phil > But, I was not afraid. I thought if I had to die on the operating table, that would be a very peaceful exit, without knowing anything. So, I dispelled the thought of the inability to visualize the face of the Padamya-myet-shin, and instead I concentrated on my activities at the Shwedagon pagoda. I lost consciousness under the effects of the general anesthesia, while visualizing my activities at the Shwedagon pagoda. I do not know how my recollecting my meritorious activities at the Shwedagon had any effect on the success of my operation, but I am still very happy for the fact that I was able to recollect and visualize my wholesome activities when I needed to do so. #110116 From: "a_true_lotus" Date: Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:54 am Subject: Who am I? a_true_lotus Dear list, I am told that it's a great mindfulness exercise to repeatedly ask yourself "who am I" Has anyone had any experience with this? For myself, I have no idea who I am, and "who I am" is an interesting question. Best, Ari #110117 From: han tun Date: Sun Sep 19, 2010 3:54 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Recollecting the past activities hantun1 Dear Phil, I like reading your posts, because I think you and I have many things in common. Phil: I have heard that in Asian countries people have monks chant verses at their deathbeds, and some people in the West think that that is kind of uncool, trying to manipulate the last moments, oh such clinging! etc. Han: You are right, Phil. In Burma, we used to do that. If a monk is not easily available, the relatives remind the dying person the meritorious deeds he or she had done. Or, the Paritta protective verses are chanted for the dying person. We do not care what other people say about this practice. ---------- Phil: Does this mean I am clinging to the desire for a wholesome rebirth? You bet it does! And thank the Buddha for that! Han: I like your frank and straight-forward remark. ---------- Phil: Well, anyways, I'm glad you survived the surgery and can continue to add more wholesome activities, I feel it increases the probability that you will have wholesome reflections in your last moments. Han: Thank you very much for your kind words. with metta and respect, Han #110118 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:18 pm Subject: Re: should one try one's best? gazita2002 Hallo RobE, Back in Oz and kinda settled, about as settled as a restless being as I am, can be I guess. 'Settlings' never easy for me! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "epsteinrob" wrote: > > Hi Azita. > Thank you, this is a helpful explanation, and makes more clear how pariyati can turn into direct awareness of the nature of dhammas. I hope it does not imply though, that listening and understanding dhamma is the only way that insight and direct awareness develops. Buddha did describe with positive approval the practices of anapansati and satipatthana meditation. In addition to listening to the dhamma and following the various elements of the eightfold noble path, mindfulness meditation and cultivation of jhanas were two very clear ways in which the Buddha said that right mindfulness, right understanding and direct awareness were to be developed. > > So I agree and appreciate what you say, but I would not want to leave out the strong emphasis on meditation which the Buddha also gave us. To ignore his comprehensive teaching on breathing, mindfulness and jhana in the suttas would be a great error. Azita: havent been thro the other posts Rob, so dont know if anyone has given comments about this. Anyway, I believe that understanding dhamma or more specifically right understanding/right view of presently arising dhammas is the only way that insight and direct awareness develops. Even breathing, mindfulness and the jhanacittas are to be known as dhammas that arise and fall away, are anatta, anicca and therefore dukkha. Supposing I had used anyone of the objects described in Vis. for the development of concentration and kusala calm, this would be a very good thing for the suppression of the hindrances eg lobha: however unless insight is developed to the degree that knows that these higher states of kusala are anatta, anicca and therefore dukkha, then 'I' am still in Samsara and the defilements are not eradicated only suppressed. Only by insight can realities be known as fleeting dhammas and as a result detachment to the all occurs. Patience, courage and good cheer, azita #110119 From: "philip" Date: Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:40 pm Subject: Re: Who am I? philofillet Hi Ari You will find a lot of help with that question here! Many people will help you understand that in the ultimate sense there is no "Ari", only dhammas, momentary and fleeting. It is our clinging to a sense of "Ara" that causes us a lot of unnecessary suffering. My take is not quite so ultimate and deep, I think that there will be a sense of "Phil" through this life, there is no way around that for me, so I like to reflect on what Phil is as a person, what he has done to help people and avoided during to hurt people, how his story is playing out. If we get caught up too much in thinking what other people think about "Ari" of course that causes us misery, but if we reflect on the good things "Ari" has done, it can cause a lot of encouragement and condition more good behaviour. I am kind of different from most people on this list because I put a lot of emphasis on conditional morality which at first glance just looks like common sense. (But the difference from other religions and humanist philosophies is that with the Dhamma, are good behaviour leads to a kind of chain reaction of development - because of a lack of remorse over bad behaviour, the mind has better conditions to settle into the kind of concentration and understanding that lead to liberation from the need to be concerned about morality.) Anways, the things that Sarah, Nina, Ken H, Jon and other students of A. Sujin, their teacher, will tell you are certainly true in the ultimate sense and we are very fortunate to be awake to hearing about it! In the ultimate sense, seen with the understanding of a liberated mind, there is no "Ari", only fleeting elements called dhammas, in Pali nama and rupa, or the khandas, as you know, called skandas in Mahayana Buddhism. Anyways, welcome. I like your practice of finding one inspiring thing a day, it's very healthy. If we feel happy and energetic and joyful, we have more energy and capactiy to avoid bad behaviour, and avoiding bad behaviour helps our minds to settle into the development that *really* sees into the things people will *talk* about here. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "a_true_lotus" wrote: > > Dear list, > > I am told that it's a great mindfulness exercise to repeatedly ask yourself "who am I" > > Has anyone had any experience with this? > > For myself, I have no idea who I am, and "who I am" is an interesting question. > > Best, > Ari > #110120 From: "philip" Date: Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:59 pm Subject: Re: Who am I? philofillet Hi again Ari Ooops, I always write so quickly that I make funny mistakes. "conventional" morality, not "conditional" and of course not "are" but "our".... Phil p.s I also forgot to address your specific question, which wsa about the value of a mindfulness exercise, who am I? Hmmm. Sounds to me that it could lead to a lot of discursive thinking, so I don't know if it would be called a mindfulness exercise for me, more like a contemplation? But certainly one of the recollections that the Buddha teaches us to do intentionally is to recollect our virtues, this is very good before meditating, helps the mind to settle into meditation. But I think the "who am I?" question is better replaced with "what am I doing?" personally. #110121 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:58 pm Subject: Re: message from Robert E kenhowardau Hi Robert E, ------ <. . .> KH: > > I can't discuss Dhamma without rejecting formal meditation. That would be the same as practising satipatthana without denying the existence of self. It can't be done! >> RE: > Do you have any idea how utterly nonsensical that is? ------ I have been saying it for the last 8 or more years. Other DSG people have been saying it a lot longer than that (though not necessarily in the same words). It is not nonsense, it is true. ---------------------- RE:> "Dhamma" is not your particular interpretation of it, even if you believe it is correct. ---------------------- So what is it then? ------------------------ RE: > "Dhamma" is the Buddha's teaching for all Buddhists, ------------------------ I don't know what you mean by that. Perhaps you are alluding to Phil's theory - that there is a conventional version of the Dhamma for people who aren't interested in its deeper meanings. I don't agree with that. ------------------------------------ RE: > and there is no doubt that meditation, which he did not call "formal meditation" as you do - a title that was made up to deride the practice, and which doesn't actually exist - was a central focus of what he taught when he actually walked the earth for 40 years. ------------------------------------ You and millions of others believe it, but I don't. As to whether the Buddha said anything about "formal meditation", I have no doubt that he did. We know he used the term siaabbataparamasa, but I think there are additional Pali terms that could be translated as "formal meditation." For example, the Buddhist Dictionary mentions "pannatti sila" and so I assume there could also be references to "pannatti dhana" and "pannatti bhavana" somewhere. Belief in the efficacy of any of those three pannattis would be wrong belief (wrong view). ----------------------- RE: > You cannot say that the practice that the Buddha engaged in to reach enlightenment himself - sitting under the Bodhi tree doing anapanasati in the lotus posture, and that he and every one of his disciples practiced their entire lives, is incompatible with *his* teaching. ----------------------- I wouldn't start from that premise in the first place. The Buddha did not practise pannatti-bhavana. ------------------ RE: > I am sorry, but the brilliant commentators you have chosen to follow instead of the Buddha I'm sure have a wonderful explanation for why the Buddha's teaching is the opposite of what he actually taught, but the Buddha's own practice comes first. ------------------ What evidence do you have to say that the ancient commentaries differ from the Buddha's teaching? Isn't that just your own commentary? ---------------------- RE: > Even the senior folks here acknowledge that under the right conditions, anapanasati and satipatthana as meditation practices *do* carry the meditator all the way to enlightenment, as we have currently been discussing, so your wholesale rejection of all meditation is out of line. May your kamma and conditions bring you more pleasant vedanas than the ones in this post. ----------------------- My "wholesale rejection" is not of the meditation (bhavana) that is taught exhaustively in the texts. My rejection is of pannatti-bhavana. Ken H #110122 From: "philip" Date: Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:20 pm Subject: Re: message from Robert E philofillet Hi Ken > I don't know what you mean by that. Perhaps you are alluding to Phil's theory - that there is a conventional version of the Dhamma for people who aren't interested in its deeper meanings. I don't agree with that. Hmm, I wouldn't say it's a matter of not interested, it's more an awareness of the gross thickness of one's defilements and the feebleness of one's understanding. In the Dhammapada we learn that the fool that knows he is a fool is in a certain extent wise. And the point that is forever ignored by you and others is that the Buddha taught a gradual teaching, he didn't teach the teach deep Dhamma to people until he sensed that their understanding was ready for it, that is an explicitly and clearly taught point in many suttas. (For example, the leper he meets on the road.) The Buddha wanted the mind to be ready for the deep teachings, like a white cloth that could absorb dye instead of just muddling it in a corrupted way with the grime in a grimy cloth. Another explicit teaching. In the West, we want to get straight into the deepest of teachings as soon as possible. I remember when a woman was here, I forget her name, from Asia but lived in Toronto, Elaine? I always remember her saying that in Asian Buddhism there is not so much talk about anatta, but oh my how we love anatta, it is so deep. So we want want to go straight to the heartwood without following the gradual training that involves removing the leaves and branches and the softwood first. That is our conditioned way, get to the gold! But I really think it is a kind of wisdom on my point to want to take it really gradually. So I reject your contention that it is a lack of interest on my part, it is adherence to the Buddha's teaching, not a false teaching like you imply. I personally feel that the way you approach Dhamma is a kind of appropriation and represents a corruption of the way the deep teaching was meant to be taught. But as I said the other day, you are at least filling your mind with better food than thinking about crap. And there *is* hope that you will come to see that the Dhamma was taught by the Buddha to different people according to his insight into their readiness. Now we have to make that judgement for ourselves. Maybe I go too far in pronouncing myself not ready, maybe you don't go far enough. OK, I only wrote this because you kind of misrepresented my understanding of Dhamma, over and out again. Metta, Phil #110123 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:27 pm Subject: Re: anapanasati 3. epsteinrob Hi Nina. Thanks for this installment. Enjoyed it very much. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: ...The Vis. adds that this tetrad deals with the > contemplation of feeling. It is evident that the person who develops > jhana must have strong sati and panna (of the level of samatha) to > discern exactly cetasikas such as piti and sukha accompanying the > jhanacitta, and after emerging from jhana to comprehend them as > impermanent, dukkha and anatta. I was especially interested in this description of the emergence from jhana and the subsequent comprehension of piti and sukha as impermanent, etc. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #110124 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:54 pm Subject: Re: message from Robert E epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > My "wholesale rejection" is not of the meditation (bhavana) that is taught exhaustively in the texts. My rejection is of pannatti-bhavana. Well, you should not be predisposed to take what others refer to as meditation and throw it into the ditch of pannati-bhavana without a fair trial. Whether one is holding wrong view or self-view in developing samatha or sati using breath as object is not a given. It depends, like everything else, on the specific conditions and tendencies that give rise to that experience. If you are not open to that possibility then you are denying your own belief that conditions are what determines such things, rather than some category of practice that is a buzz word for you and that you object to without regard to what is actually taking place. There is potential in these practices to exercise wrong view or right view, just as there is in dhamma study or any other activity. There is no need to be prejudiced against the entire world of anapanasati and satipatthana practice, as they were explicitly taught by the Buddha. It is not a question of whether these are "formal" or not, but whether one is developing discernment or not, and that is something that you cannot pre-judge. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #110125 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:01 pm Subject: Re: should one try one's best? epsteinrob Hi Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > Even breathing, mindfulness and the jhanacittas are to be known as dhammas that arise and fall away, are anatta, anicca and therefore dukkha. > Supposing I had used anyone of the objects described in Vis. for the development of concentration and kusala calm, this would be a very good thing for the suppression of the hindrances eg lobha: however unless insight is developed to the degree that knows that these higher states of kusala are anatta, anicca and therefore dukkha, then 'I' am still in Samsara and the defilements are not eradicated only suppressed. Only by insight can realities be known as fleeting dhammas and as a result detachment to the all occurs. I agree that jhana only sets the ground for enlightenment if insight is adequately developed and applied to the experience of the jhana, as Nina has recently highlighted in her review of the Vis.'s description of the anapanasati tetrad regarding jhana and insight. There is no doubt that such a practice is one thing if the conditions for insight have been developed, and quite another if it is done merely to suppress the hindrances. Insight "takes advantage" of the suppression of the hindrances and the deep peace and bliss of the jhanas in order to more clearly understand the nature of dhammas. It is in that light that anapansati can provide the ground for accumulating the tendencies and creating the conditions for this to occur. My point, especially for this list, is that 'meditation,' seen and understood this way, is not automatically the expression of wrong view or self view, but can be the ground for insight that Buddha intended it to be, a fertile ground for investigation of the nature of dhammas. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #110126 From: han tun Date: Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:16 pm Subject: Old age hantun1 Dear Nina, Sarah, and all other good friends, This is the last of my series in relation to my recent illness. When I was discharged from the hospital, I was asked to walk as much as I could. At that time, I was very weak and could not walk without the help of another person. So my wife supported me when I tried to walk along the corridor in our condominium. I thought: "here we are, the two old persons, one helping the other to walk". I then asked my wife if a thought had occurred to her about 50 years ago that one day we would grow old and one would be helping the other to walk? She said, "No". Those were the happy days when we (my wife and I) would never think about old age and death. ---------- Those were the days when I had not yet read AN 5.57 Upajjhatthana Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.057.than.html So I did not know the five facts that one should reflect on often, such as: "I am subject to aging, have not gone beyond aging" (Jaraadhammomhi, jara.m anatiito), or "I am subject to illness, have not gone beyond illness" (Byaadhidhammomhi, byaadhi.m anatiito), or "I am subject to death, have not gone beyond death" (Mara.nadhammomhi, mara.na.m anatiito), and so on. ---------- Those were the days when I ignored the Divine Messengers although I saw them. If I may quote Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi in his article, Meeting the Divine Messengers [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/bps-essay_32.html] I lived "in a condition that the Buddha describes by the term pamada, negligence or heedlessness. Imagining ourselves immortal, and the world our personal playground, we devote our energies to the accumulation of wealth, the enjoyment of sensual pleasures, the achievement of status, the quest for fame and renown." ---------- Those were the days that I did not realize that even the Buddha could not escape from ageing. In SN 48.41 Jara Sutta: Old Age [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn48/sn48.041.than.html#spit] Ananda: "It's amazing, lord. It's astounding, how the Blessed One's complexion is no longer so clear & bright; his limbs are flabby & wrinkled; his back, bent forward; there's a discernible change in his faculties the faculty of the eye, the faculty of the ear, the faculty of the nose, the faculty of the tongue, the faculty of the body." "That's the way it is, Ananda. When young, one is subject to aging; when healthy, subject to illness; when alive, subject to death. The complexion is no longer so clear & bright; the limbs are flabby & wrinkled; the back, bent forward; there's a discernible change in the faculties: the faculty of the eye, the faculty of the ear, the faculty of the nose, the faculty of the tongue, the faculty of the body." ---------- After my discharge from the hospital, my good friend Tep reminded me with a heading of "Ageing & Death: A Clear & Present Danger" citing SN 3.25 Pabbatopama Sutta: [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn03/sn03.025.than.html]. The Buddha said: "So it is, great king! So it is, great king! As aging and death are rolling in on you, what else should be done but Dhamma-conduct (dhamma-cariyaaya), right conduct (sama-cariyaaya), skillful deeds (kusala-kiriyaaya), meritorious deeds (pu~n~na-kiriyaaya)?" I thank Tep very much for this reminder. ---------- I never wanted to write about myself On-line. I used to write such matters to Sarah Off-line. But Sarah wanted me to write to the List as well. Therefore, my writings about my recent illness are primarily intended for Sarah. ---------- My recovery is far from complete yet. I have gained some strength and I could now eat almost as much as I used to eat before. But the most worrying sign is the loss of body-weight. I lost four kg, and I do not gain back any yet. It is probable that I lost my muscle mass. If so, it will take a very long time to build back the muscle mass. I was recommended nutritional supplements such as "Juven" and "Ensure". I will try them, and until and unless I gain back some of my body-weight, I will be taking a long rest. Respectfully, Han #110127 From: Cecil Kulatunga Date: Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:59 pm Subject: Cecil's introduction cecilkulatunga Dear Dhamma Study Group I am a new member and first of all would like to thank the moderators for their kind advice and guidelines. I must admit that I have already made one mistake and that is to delete two messages from Ken O. The error was made as I did not know who the writer is and naturally assumed the emails to be dangerous to open. I now know that this will not happen again. However I would be happy to receive them again if it is not too much of a bother to you. I am a retired engineer and devote most of my free time to learn the dhamma. As I am not a regular visitor to temples where public sermons are conducted I am somewhat disadvantaged in acquiring knowledge. However I try to make up by reading texts and listening to recorded sermons. In this way I feel that I make use of my free time more efficiently. Coming across the DMS was unexpected it happened while looking for something to read. Now I am so glad as I feel that I may have filled a gap in my needs. I do hope to gain much with this association. Yours sincerely Cecil Kulatunga #110128 From: "bhikkhu3" Date: Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:31 pm Subject: Rejoicing Joy! bhikkhu5 Friends: How to train Rejoicing Joy in others Success? When sitting alone, in silence, each early morning, with closed eyes one wishes: May I radiate and meet only never-ending and mutually rejoicing joy! May I & all the various beings on the 31 levels of existence develop and find only celebration and elation in a never-ending mutually rejoicing joy! May I & all beings on the sense-desire, fine-material, and the formless plane develop and encounter this generous, infinite and mutually rejoicing joy! May I & all beings in the front, to the right, the back, the left, and below as above, develop and experience openhearted, sharing, & mutually rejoicing joy! May I and all beings within this city, country, planet and universe always: Be fully aware and deeply mindful of this content and mutually rejoicing joy! Examine all details & aspects of this satisfied and mutually rejoicing joy! Put enthusiastic effort in our praxis of this devoted mutually rejoicing joy! Enjoy enraptured jubilant gladness in this exulting mutually rejoicing joy! Be silenced by the tranquillity of quiet and all smiling mutually rejoicing joy! Be concentrated & absorbed into one-pointedness by genuine rejoicing joy! Dwell in an imperturbable equanimity of pure and mutually rejoicing joy... Yeah! May it be even so, since mutual joy causes the jewel of contentment! Comment: Mutual Joy is the 3rd infinite mental state (Appama??a): This gradually reduces all envy, jealousy, possessiveness, stinginess, avarice miserliness, green covetousness and unhappiness related with all these states. Mutual Joy is the proximate cause of satisfied and fulfilled Contentment... Lack of mutual joy is the proximate cause of dissatisfied discontentment... Joined with the 7 links to Awakening it will later cause a formless jhana... Be happy at all and especially other being's success! Then calm comfort grows! <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * <...> #110129 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cecil's introduction nilovg Dear Cecil, Op 20-sep-2010, om 6:59 heeft Cecil Kulatunga het volgende geschreven: > I am a new member and first of all would like to thank the > moderators for their > kind advice and guidelines. I must admit that I have already made > one mistake > and that is to delete two messages from Ken O. ----- N: Welcome here. Thank you for your intro. Perhaps I can help with Ken O's posts: Ken O: Dear pt > >pt: I'm not quite sure what exactly is your objection here? In the previous >post, I've described my understanding of how insight proper happens both in case > >of (a) sense-door followed by mind-door processes, as well as (b) purely >mind-door processes following each other. So, in case of thinking, for example, >which has some concept as the object in one mind-door, that thinking as a dhamma > >(vitaka), or any other dhamma that participates in thinking (sanna, vicara, >etc), can become the object of the following mind-door process with panna. > KO: I used to think in such a way until I relook at the process of concepts with dhamma, because panna can arise with concepts. Panna arise whether the object of a citta is a concept or dhamma. Simple example is panna could arise in mundane jhanas. It is not exclusively dhamma. At the moment of concept, citta already think of it, panna could arise with citta that think of the concept. >pr: I'm not quite sure to what your objection relates to here either? As I think > >we agree, panna at the conceptual level does not liberate - it's not insight >proper, so I was hoping to stop discussing that case. You keep returning to it >though, so I'm not quite sure what exactly is not clear there? As mentioned >before, I think that sort of panna is important for the development, because it >conditions panna of insight strength in the future. But still it's not insight >proper yet, and I thought we were discussing insight proper. KO: I am not talking about insight at Vipassana level, I am talking about before vipassana level >pt: I agree KenO, but your conclusion here is a bit of a strawman - I never >really argued against panna at the conceptual level. All I was saying was that >insight proper would have a dhamma as object of citta, while you were saying >that it can be a concept too. You haven't yet provided an argument that would >convince me that insight proper (so panna of strength number 2 and 3) can have a > >concept as the object too - I thought that was your claim at the start - at >least that's how I understood you. KO: I thought I was very clear, that your insight proper is only at Vipassana, During vipassana, it is only dhamma as object of citta. > > >So, to reiterate, I agree that panna at the conceptual level is important (e.g. >the right conceptual understnading that KenH and Sukin keep mentioning), but >insight proper happens only with a dhamma as object, as I understand, regardless > >of whether it is in javana cittas of a sense-door process followed by a >mind-door process, or in javana cittas of a purely mind-door process following a > >previous mind-door process. KO: Nope, their views are at even during conecptual understanding, the object of panna must be a dhamma which I disagreed because the text do not support such a view. Ken O -------Dear Ken H >--------- > >Yes, sorry about that. And it goes completely against your new theory on >concepts. :-) > KO: That is nothing new about concepts. Because concepts do arise with panna. Panna arise also at jhanas be it mundane or supradmundane. Pse read the CMA. Ken O ------------ Nina. #110130 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Old age nilovg Dear Han, Op 20-sep-2010, om 8:16 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I never wanted to write about myself On-line. I used to write such > matters to Sarah Off-line. But Sarah wanted me to write to the List > as well. Therefore, my writings about my recent illness are > primarily intended for Sarah. > > ---------- N: And good for us too. I am glad you write on line. -------- > > H: My recovery is far from complete yet. I have gained some > strength and I could now eat almost as much as I used to eat > before. But the most worrying sign is the loss of body-weight. I > lost four kg, and I do not gain back any yet. It is probable that I > lost my muscle mass. If so, it will take a very long time to build > back the muscle mass. I was recommended nutritional supplements > such as "Juven" and "Ensure". I will try them, and until and unless > I gain back some of my body-weight, I will be taking a long rest. ------- N: I know this kind of worry, Lodewijk had this. Often before six in the morning I started to make soup, and gave this for lunch with rice and meat. It takes months before there is some gain of weight, that is normal. More important is your general wellbeing. The doctor told us not to be so fixed on body weight. You have appetite and that is a good sign. As to your last cittas before death: nobody could control these. Kh Sujin would say: you are not dying yet, what about this moment? Your golden opportunities. Otherwise it is just thinking and thinking. Thinking is also a conditioned reality and can be known as such. Thank you for all the suttas. Nina. #110131 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cecil's introduction sarahprocter... Dear Cecil, Welcome to DSG! Where do you live? Are you in Australia? We're in Sydney. --- On Mon, 20/9/10, Cecil Kulatunga wrote: >I am a new member and first of all would like to thank the moderators for their kind advice and guidelines. .... S: Thank you for reading them! ... >I must admit that I have already made one mistake and that is to delete two messages from Ken O. The error was made as I did not know who the writer is and naturally assumed the emails to be dangerous to open. I now know that this will not happen again. .... S: Actually, that's quite funny:-) Don't worry, none of the emails are dangerous here - only our own ignorance and wrong views are dangerous! ... >However I would be happy to receive them again if it is not too much of a bother to you. .... S: I see Nina has already kindly helped. Anytime, you can go to the DSG website, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/ and find the messages you missed. ... >I am a retired engineer and devote most of my free time to learn the dhamma. As I am not a regular visitor to temples where public sermons are conducted I am somewhat disadvantaged in acquiring knowledge. However I try to make up by reading texts and listening to recorded sermons. In this way I feel that I make use of my free time more efficiently. ... S: Excellent. I'm wondering if you come from Sri Lanka originally? We'll greatly look forward to your contributions. .... >Coming across the DMS was unexpected it happened while looking for something to read. Now I am so glad as I feel that I may have filled a gap in my needs. I do hope to gain much with this association. .... S: Pls feel very free to join in any threads and to start any of your own. It takes a while to understand who people are and what they're discussing. You (and anyone else who is new to the list), may also find it helpful to go to "Useful Posts" in the files and scroll down for particular topics of saved messages. For example, there is a discussion on anapanasati now, and all the saved messages on this topic can be found there under "anapanasati". You can also find information in the files there about different ways of receiving messages. Pt is also very helpful with any technical problems new members have with DSG. Metta Sarah ======= #110132 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Who am I? sarahprocter... Dear Ari, --- On Sun, 19/9/10, a_true_lotus wrote: >I am told that it's a great mindfulness exercise to repeatedly ask yourself "who am I" >Has anyone had any experience with this? >For myself, I have no idea who I am, and "who I am" is an interesting question. .... S: I like to ask whether seeing now is "I", whether hearing now is "I", whether smelling, tasting or touching now is "I", or even whether thinking now is "I". Surely not. And then we can ask whether the visual object, the audible object or the tangible objects, for example, are "I". Again, surely not. When we ask such questions, isn't it true as the Buddha taught that actually there is no "I" to be found anywhere? So I think you'll never find any idea about who you are or "who I am", because this "I" is just a figment of our imaginations that we cling to all day long. Just my ideas.... Metta Sarah ======= #110133 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Old age, to Han. sarahprocter... Dear Ann, (Nina & Han), It's so lovely to see you writing again on the list, sharing Dhama in your very perceptive way. I'd like to encourage you too:-). --- On Mon, 20/9/10, glenjohnann wrote: >We are fortunate to be able to see your discussion here. I sometimes think of how people bear the suffering that comes with older age or with unexpected illness before older age. Your comments are such an excellent reminder that this life presents a nonetheless a "golden opportunity" right up to the end. ... S: Yes, it's very helpful for us all. And Ann, you know so well about pain and unexpected illness before older age too and the importance of understanding at this moment. You've experienced major surgery yourself and you told me that your husband nearly passed away this summer from a sudden illness. Perhaps you can also share more of your own reflections at such times too. We can all benefit and learn. You also mentioned that you found the dhamma reminders here very inspiring during this difficult time. Anything in particular? ... >One cannot plan or rehearse how it will be during painful and difficult times, however, with understanding one can appreciate that all things are conditioned. The more listening to the Dhamma well taught and considering of what one has heard, the more conditions there may be for kusala and a true understanding of the reality arising now in the future. We like to think that kusala will arise during difficult times - and we have an almost irresistible tendency to try to "do" something about it. More understanding helps us to appreciate the value of kusala. We cannot know what will arise in the future. We are fortunate to have the opportunity to read, listen to and discuss the Dhamma now. .... S: Beautifully written! I also appreciated the comments you wrote about visits to Bangkok or any other activities. It always comes back to the "practice" now, the understanding at this moment. If we wait for the special occasion, we just put off the growth of understanding, awareness and any kusala now. Metta Sarah ====== Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Han, > Lodewijk said that he was very much impressed by your post and he > finds your attitude very good. > Op 18-sep-2010, om 2:04 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > > > Han: Like Lodewijk, I am also distressed with the old age and the > > illnesses and suffering that accompany it. You may remember what I > > wrote a few days back. > > > > .... I will have the golden opportunity to do meritorious deeds to > > the extent possible, even between the bouts of pain. I had to > > concur with him.]> > ------ > #110134 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Old age, to Han. nilovg Dear Ann and Sarah, Op 20-sep-2010, om 10:11 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Ann: We like to think that kusala will arise during difficult times > - and we have an almost irresistible tendency to try to "do" > something about it. ------ N: I also think that this is very well remarked. And because of conditions many akusala cittas with aversion may arise. but then aversion can be the object of more understanding. But in the beginning, I heard, there cannot be a precise knowledge of kusala and akusala. The first thing to know: it is naama, just a conditioned dhamma. A dhamma that is an experience, different from ruupa that does not experience anything. Nina. #110135 From: han tun Date: Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Old age hantun1 Dear Nina, Nina: I know this kind of worry, Lodewijk had this. Often before six in the morning I started to make soup, and gave this for lunch with rice and meat. It takes months before there is some gain of weight, that is normal. More important is your general wellbeing. The doctor told us not to be so fixed on body weight. You have appetite and that is a good sign. Han: Thank you very much for allaying my fear about the loss of body-weight. I am also glad that Lodewijk is well taken care of. I pray for his health. ---------- Nina: As to your last cittas before death: nobody could control these. Kh Sujin would say: you are not dying yet, what about this moment? Your golden opportunities. Otherwise it is just thinking and thinking. Thinking is also a conditioned reality and can be known as such. Han: I know very well about the uncertainty about the last cittas. It was only my *wishful thinking*. I like your question: "What about this moment? " Thank you very much for this very important reminder. Respectfully, Han #110136 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: JC from Dhammawheel has died... nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 18-sep-2010, om 19:34 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Of course, If something miss me shall you quote again? ------ N: Yes, I was thinking of you when I quoted to Han: This quote Ven. Dhammadharo once wrote to me. He did not like to write very much, he was more inclined to talk. But now and then he sent me a postcard with some helpful reminders and on one of these he wrote the above-quoted text. --------- > > L: I also remember the story what Acharn Sujin said to Sarah during > Bhante Dhammadhara funeral. Sarah was crying saying something no > Alan with us, And Acharn smile, pointing ashes or body(?), just go > touch, see just touch and sensible object, nothing more no Bhante > Dhammadhara, no Alan, just seeing and hearing. Where is Alan, the > seeing is Alan? the touching? This all gone now. ----- N: Yes, I remember and I am glad you quote this again, otherwise we are likely to forget. We should remember that also at this moment we can say: where is Lukas, is the seeing lukas, is the touching Lukas? And this goes for all of us. Nina. #110137 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:22 am Subject: Re: should one try one's best? ptaus1 Hi KenO, Thanks for your reply, I think we're getting close to the source of confusion/disagreement. > KO: I used to think in such a way until I relook at the process of concepts > with dhamma, because panna can arise with concepts. Panna arise whether the > object of a citta is a concept or dhamma. Simple example is panna could arise > in mundane jhanas.? It is not exclusively dhamma. At the moment of concept, > citta already think of it, panna could arise with citta that think of the > concept. pt: Ok, I agree here. For the sake of clarity though, to make sure we're on the same page - when panna arises with a concept - that would not be an instance of proper insight, right? I mean, it could be samatha panna, or it could be right intellectual understanding (pariyati), but it's not vipassana/satipatthana proper, right? > KO: I am not talking about insight at Vipassana level,? I am talking about > before vipassana level pt: Hm, ok, but then there's no disagreement, is there? I think we both agree that panna can arise when the object of citta is a concept, and that would be right intellectual understanding for example, or samatha panna, but not vipassana proper. > KO: I thought I was very clear, that your insight proper is only at Vipassana, > During vipassana, it is only dhamma as object of citta. pt: I think in one of the previous messages you said that satipatthana too can have a concept as object. Perhaps I misunderstood you. That's what was confusing me anyway, because I think saying "satipatthana" is basically the same as saying proper insight/vipasssana, i.e. dhamma would be object of citta. > KO: Nope, their views are at even during conecptual understanding, the object > of panna must be a dhamma which I disagreed because the text do not support such > a view.?? pt: You mean that Sarah, Jon and others here think that "even during conceptual understanding, the object of panna must be a dhamma"? I think you might have misunderstood them - I just spoke to Sarah about it a few days ago, and she too says that for right intellectual understanding, panna arises with with a citta that has a concept as the object. So, perhaps this whole argument is a misunderstanding? Best wishes pt #110138 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:12 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Old age, to Han. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: The first thing to know: it is naama, just a conditioned > dhamma. A dhamma that is an experience, different from ruupa that > does not experience anything. This clarification was important to me. Forgive me if I paraphrase, it helps me to understand better: So rupa arises and can be known as rupa, but it is nama that knows rupa, while rupa "doesn't experience anything." Nama can also be known as dhamma by another nama -- just sorting out how to look at rupa and nama when they arise. If you can, please say a word about why it is so important to distinguish rupa from nama. I know this is very basic, but I would like to clarify. It seems it is even more important than distinguishing between one type of nama and another type of nama; that distinguishing rupa from nama [when they arise together?] is the most important first step. Thanks, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = #110139 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:16 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Old age, to Han. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Ann and Sarah, > Op 20-sep-2010, om 10:11 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > > > Ann: We like to think that kusala will arise during difficult times > > - and we have an almost irresistible tendency to try to "do" > > something about it. > ------ > N: I also think that this is very well remarked. And because of > conditions many akusala cittas with aversion may arise. but then > aversion can be the object of more understanding. But in the > beginning, I heard, there cannot be a precise knowledge of kusala and > akusala. The first thing to know: it is naama, just a conditioned > dhamma. A dhamma that is an experience, different from ruupa that > does not experience anything. Let's say a pain arises. Is pain a rupa? Or is it an experience? Or both? Does pain break down into rupas like hardness, pressure, etc.? To have dispassion with pain, would one look at the nama experiencing the pain, and see the pain as a rupa, or also a nama? It seems that sometimes if there is pain or anxiety, any unpleasant experience, if one sees it as an experience, or breaks it down into sensations, reactions, etc., that it causes some detachment and the unpleasant experience has less intensity. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #110140 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: JC from Dhammawheel has died... epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Lukas, > Op 18-sep-2010, om 19:34 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > > > Of course, If something miss me shall you quote again? > ------ > N: Yes, I was thinking of you when I quoted to Han: 53: good deeds should be done by one born a mortal.> > This quote Ven. Dhammadharo once wrote to me. He did not like to > write very much, he was more inclined to talk. But now and then he > sent me a postcard with some helpful reminders and on one of these he > wrote the above-quoted text. > --------- > > > > L: I also remember the story what Acharn Sujin said to Sarah during > > Bhante Dhammadhara funeral. Sarah was crying saying something no > > Alan with us, And Acharn smile, pointing ashes or body(?), just go > > touch, see just touch and sensible object, nothing more no Bhante > > Dhammadhara, no Alan, just seeing and hearing. Where is Alan, the > > seeing is Alan? the touching? This all gone now. > ----- > N: Yes, I remember and I am glad you quote this again, otherwise we > are likely to forget. We should remember that also at this moment we > can say: where is Lukas, is the seeing lukas, is the touching Lukas? > And this goes for all of us. Wow, this is true, but it's really difficult, obviously, to take this standpoint. I am thinking of what you said in one of the last few posts, that if you are going on thinking and thinking about what is happening, you can see the thinking itself as a dhamma. This would bring detachment, I think, from what you "think you are thinking about." There is a Tibetan story about a famous teacher, Marpa, who told his students that the person was just an illusion and that they should be detached from the view that a person exists. However, when his son died he went into deep grief and couldn't stop crying. His students were furious with him and felt he was a hypocrite. They asked him, "How can you tell us a person is just an illusion and then get so upset over your son's death?" Marpa said "I know my son was just an illusion, but he was such a beautiful illusion, I can't help but weep." I have thought about this story for years, that even those who are very "advanced" in their view need compassion for being attached to their cherished illusions and concepts. The human condition of attachment to illusions and concepts goes on until the very highest realization, doesn't it? I wonder if even an arahant can experience this kind of attachment arise, or not? In any case, this story helps me see that it is too impatient to expect ourselves to reach full detachment very quickly. We can't blame ourselves for being "stuck" in this condition. Instead, as you and others always remind us, we can only look at what is arising now and see what it is. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #110141 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:21 am Subject: Similes of the five khandhas. nilovg Dear friends, I heard on a recording Kh Sujin explaining about the five khandhas and quoting a text with similes about them. This was an occasion for me to revisit Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 224. I quote from the Visuddhimagga and commentary: In this section (224), there are similes pertaining to each of the five khandhas separately and this is how they are seen in detail. --------- Text Vis.: In detail [that is, individually] matter should be regarded as a lump of froth because it will not stand squeezing, feeling as a bubble on water because it can only be enjoyed for an instant, perception as a mirage because it causes illusion, formations as a plantain trunk because it has no core, and consciousness as a conjuring trick because it deceives (S.iii,140-42). ------- N: The Tiika elaborates on these similes, and the text is partly similar to the ?Dispeller of Delusion? (p. 36-38). Ruupa is just like a lump of froth without any substance and it cannot be grasped, since it breaks up immediately. Ruupa is like wood surrounding the pith of a tree, without core or substance, it is weak, and it should not be taken as ?I? or ?mine?. Ruupa continually breaks up from the first stage of a foetus on, until it finally breaks up at death. The Dispeller adds: Feeling is like a bubble of water. Just as a bubble of water is unsubstantial, is ungraspable, and does not last long, so is feeling. Just as a bubble arises due to four causes: the water surface, the drop of water, wetness of the water and the air which holds it up by drawing it together as an envelope, just so feeling also arises due to four causes: the physical base, the object, the flame of defilements and the impact of contact (phassa). The Tiika states that here feeling is meant that is connected with the cycle (va.t.ta), while the rootcause are the defilements that are not eradicated and the object is food for it. Feeling can only be enjoyed for a short while. Sa??aa is like a mirage, since it is unsubstantial and cannot be grasped. One cannot grasp it, drink it, wash in it, bathe in it or fill a pot with it. A mirage quivers and deceives many people. The Dispeller of Delusion adds that it makes people say that they saw a full lake or a full river. Sa??aa deceives the world by being a cause of wrong view, of seeing things as beautiful, happiness, permanent and self. The khandha of formations is like a plantain stem since it is unsubstantial and cannot be grasped. Just as a plantain stem is a combination of many sheets and is without core, evenso the khandha of formations which is a combination of many dhammas, the cetasikas, it is without core, and cannot be grasped. It cannot be taken as permanent, etc. By combining the characteristic of contact and other characteristics of volition and so on, it is called the khandha of formations. N: The Dispeller adds: ?And just as a plantain stem has many characteristics, for one has the appearance of an outer sheath of leaf, but there is another within and another within that, so indeed the formations aggregate...? The plantain tree has no pith, no core. Evenso the khandha of formations that is a combination of many cetasikas, has no core. The khandha of consciousness, vi??aa.na, is like an illusion (maya). It is without substance or core, and it cannot be grasped. Just as an illusion is changeable and appears swiftly, so is citta. The Dispeller adds that citta is more changeable and appears more briefly. Just as an illusion deceives many people and causes them to see as a jewel what is not a jewel, evenso citta that is without a core and swift to change deceives people and makes them think that there is one lasting citta at the time of coming, going, standing and sitting. However, there is another citta during each of these postures. Thus citta is like an illusion. -------- Nina. #110142 From: "connie" Date: Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:25 am Subject: Sangiitisutta 6.20 / CSCD 328 nichiconn Dear Friends, DN33 Sixes continues: CSCD 328. <>ti. Tasmaa nissayasiisena nissitassa gaha.na.m da.t.thabbanti aaha <>ti. I.t.the arajjantoti i.t.the aaramma.ne raaga.m anuppaadento maggena samucchinnattaa. Neva sumano hoti gehasitapemavasenapi. Na dummano pasaada~n~nathattavasenapi. Asamapekkhaneti i.t.thepi ani.t.thepi majjhattepi aaramma.ne na sama.m na sammaa ayoniso gaha.ne. Yo akhii.naasavaana.m moho uppajjati, ta.m anuppaadento maggeneva tassa samugghaa.titattaa. ~Naa.nupekkhaavaseneva upekkhako viharati majjhatto. Aya~ncassa pa.tipattivepullappattiyaa , pa~n~naavepullappattiyaa vaati aaha <>tiaadi. Cha.la'ngupekkhaati chasu dvaaresu pavattaa satisampaja~n~nassa vasena chaavayavaa upekkhaa. ~Naa.nasampayuttacittaani labbhanti tehi vinaa sampajaanataaya asambhavato. Mahaacittaaniiti a.t.thapi mahaakiriyacittaani labbhanti. Satatavihaaraati ~naa.nuppattipaccayarahitakaalepi pavattibhedanato. Dasa cittaaniiti a.t.tha mahaakiriyacittaani hasituppaadavo.t.thabbanacittehi saddhi.m dasa cittaani labbhanti. Arajjanaadussanavasena pavatti tesampi saadhaara.naati.<>ti vacanato cha.la'ngupekkhaavasena aagataana.m imesa.m satatavihaaraana.m <>ti codetvaa <>ti sayameva pariharatiiti. Ki~ncaapi khii.naasavo i.t.thaani.t.thepi aaramma.ne majjhatte viya bahula.m upekkhako viharati attano parisuddhapakatibhaavaavijahanato, kadaaci pana tathaa cetobhisa'nkhaaraabhaave ya.m ta.m sabhaavato i.t.tha.m aaramma.na.m, tattha yaathaavasabhaavaggaha.navasenapi arahato citta.m somanassasahagata.m hutvaa pavattateva, ta~nca kho pubbaasevanavasena. Tenaaha <>ti. to be continued, connie #110143 From: "a_true_lotus" Date: Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:23 am Subject: Re: Who am I? a_true_lotus --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Ari > > > You will find a lot of help with that question here! Many people will help you understand that in the ultimate sense there is no "Ari", only dhammas, momentary and fleeting. It is our clinging to a sense of "Ara" that causes us a lot of unnecessary suffering. Right. When I ask myself "Who Am I" day after day, the answer changes. I am a depressed woman, I am a dynamic woman, it always changes. My > take is not quite so ultimate and deep, I think that there will be a sense of "Phil" through this life, there is no way around that for me, so I like to reflect on what Phil is as a person, what he has done to help people and avoided during to hurt people, how his story is playing out. If we get caught up too much in thinking what other > people think about "Ari" of course that causes us misery, but if we > reflect on the good things "Ari" has done, it can cause a lot of > encouragement and condition more good behaviour. Right I am kind of different from most people on this list because I put a lot of > emphasis on conditional morality which at first glance just looks like common sense. (But the difference from other religions and > humanist philosophies is that with the Dhamma, are good behaviour > leads to a kind of chain reaction of development - because of a lack of remorse over bad behaviour, the mind has better conditions to settle into the kind of concentration and understanding that lead to liberation from the need to be concerned about morality.) I have to admit my views of karma have changed a lot. I used to think, that if you were a good, moral person, that, sure, you'd have things like ill health, or relationship problems, or whatever. Then a tornado destroyed my home. I don't believe I've done anything to deserve this and certainly my supra - moral husband did not. Then a child died, what was his karma? So, I now believe that karma may affect us in a next lifetime, but that many aspects of karma are really out of our control and the "rules" of karma are really beyond us. > Anways, the things that Sarah, Nina, Ken H, Jon and other students of A. Sujin, their teacher, will tell you are certainly true in the ultimate sense and we are very fortunate to be awake to hearing about it! In the ultimate sense, seen with the understanding of a liberated mind, there is no "Ari", only fleeting elements called dhammas, in Pali nama and rupa, or the khandas, as you know, called skandas in > Mahayana Buddhism. I see. I've done enough meditation to know that the mind shifts around a lot. But, I have to say, the rate at which thoughts go through my mind, is really small, compared to when I started two years ago. There are very few thoughts going on, and not much in the way of sesations. > Anyways, welcome. I like your practice of finding one inspiring thing a day, it's very healthy. If we feel happy and energetic and > joyful, we have more energy and capactiy to avoid bad behaviour, and avoiding bad behaviour helps our minds to settle into the development that *really* sees into the things people will *talk* about here. > > Metta, > > Phil Right. I now know my woods very well, as I often go into the woods to find something inspirational. I usually don't come back empty handed. We own 5 acres of old growth deciduous forest, and then, there is another 5 acres with nobody living there, and I think it belongs to the person who owns the cornfield beyond the woods. One day, I even got lost in our own woods! Anyway, I go onto their property as I'm sure they don't mind and so I got lost in around 10 acres of woods. Oh, except the neighbors to the north and south of us, have 5 acre lots as well. Nothing is well staked and I try to stay off their property, but then I'm looking at 20 acres of woods to get lost into! I'm bringing my compass next time! The last thing I found, was very interesting. I went out into the woods with my camera, and took a super macro photo of a scrub brush flower. Well, when I offloaded the photos that little flower is exquisitely beautiful and so I think I'm going to be into macros now! Best, Ari #110144 From: "a_true_lotus" Date: Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Who am I? a_true_lotus > .... > S: I like to ask whether seeing now is "I", whether hearing now is "I", whether smelling, tasting or touching now is "I", or even whether thinking now is "I". Surely not. And then we can ask whether the visual object, the audible object or the tangible objects, for example, are "I". Again, surely not. OK. It's hard to believe that thinking is not "I", as we are structured with thoughts and habits that make us, us. > When we ask such questions, isn't it true as the Buddha taught that actually there is no "I" to be found anywhere? Well, I'm not that advanced, I guess. We went to this charity event, and I drank too much and had a miserable night's sleep and so suffered most of the next day. Not really a hangover, but just feeling crappy due to insomnia. So, I was resting on my bed, and I asked "who am I?" and the answer was "I'm a depressed woman laying in bed". That seemed to be the answer. > So I think you'll never find any idea about who you are or "who I am", because this "I" is just a figment of our imaginations that we cling to all day long. > > Just my ideas.... > > Metta > > Sarah Thanks for your post, Sarah. Best, Ari #110145 From: "a_true_lotus" Date: Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:41 pm Subject: What is Boddhi citta? a_true_lotus Yes, I'm sure I spelled it wrong. Mind is made of "chitta", right? That would be thoughts, sensations, sights, etc or whatever comes into the mind which is transient. Am I right so far? So, then what is Boddhichitta? Thank you moderators for getting my posts out in a reasonable amount of time. It gets kind of frustrating when I don't see any answers for a day. Thanks again, for allowing me to see my post the same day I made it. Best, Ari #110146 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:39 pm Subject: Reminder: salutations, trimming etc dsgmods Hi All, Just a couple of reminders. Salutations & sign-offs Please make it clear whom your post is addressed to (even if it's 'All'), and sign off at the end of every post (whether short or long) with your name. Trimming When replying to another member’s post, please remember to delete any part of the other post that is not necessary for your reply. Please also review the rest of the guidelines from time to time. They can be found here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ Thanks for your co-operation. Jon and Sarah PS As usual, any comments on this - off-list only. Thanks. #110147 From: "bhikkhu3" Date: Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:51 pm Subject: Contentment is the Highest Treasure! bhikkhu5 Friends: Contentment is the most supreme Treasure! The Blessed Buddha often noted contentment as the highest treasure: There is the case where a Bhikkhu is quite content with whatever old robe, quite content with whatever old alms-food, quite content with whatever hut, and quite content with whatever bitter medicine for curing sickness. This Dhamma is for one who is content, not for one who is discontent! Thus was it said. And with reference to exactly this salient contentment with whatever little one has, was this simple, serene modesty well spoken... AN VIII 30 Contentment with whatever little one has! How is a Bhikkhu content? Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden, even so is he content with a single set of robes to protect his body and begged alms-food to pacify his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only these few simple necessities as robes, belt, bowl and razor along with him. This is how a Bhikkhu is content... DN 2 There is the case where a Bhikkhu is content with whatever old robe at all, with whatever old alms-food at all, with whatever old hut at all. He speaks in praise of being content with any old requisite at all. He does not, for the sake of any requisite, do anything unsuitable or inappropriate. When not getting any requisites, he is not troubled. When getting requisites, he just uses it without being attached to it. He is not obsessed, blameless, and seeing the drawbacks and dangers of possessions, he realizes the escape from them. He does not, on account of his contentment with any old requisite at all, exalt himself or disparage others. Thus is he modest, clever, energetic, alert, & acutely aware! This, Bhikkhus, is called a Bhikkhu standing quite firm in the ancient, original lineage of the Noble Ones... AN IV 28 Good are friends, when need arises. Good is contentment with just what one has. Good is merit done well, when life is at the end. Good is the elimination of all Suffering! Dhammapada 331 Solitude is happiness for one who is content, who has heard the Dhamma and clearly understands. Harmlessness is happiness in all worlds! Harmlessness held towards all breathing beings. Udana 10 Therefore be capable, upright, and straight, easy to instruct, gentle, and not proud, content and easy to support with little, with few duties, living simply and lightly, with peaceful abilities, mastering all, modest, and with no greed for support. Do not do even a minor thing that the wise and noble would later criticize. Sutta Nipata I, 8 <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * <...> #110148 From: "philip" Date: Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:24 pm Subject: Re: Who am I? philofillet Hi Ari, and all > Right. When I ask myself "Who Am I" day after day, the answer changes. I am a depressed woman, I am a dynamic woman, it always changes. Ph: Right. But rather than day by day, more like moment by moment? Technically speaking, when we get deep into the Buddha's teaching (or the commentaries that followed and sometimes supply a much more momentary aspect then the suttas do) we find that there are different "Aris" rising and falling away in the flash of an eye. Our distorted perception gives the impression of a lasting person. > So, I now believe that karma may affect us in a next lifetime, but that many aspects of karma are really out of our control and the "rules" of karma are really beyond us. Ph: From what I understand, kamma from past lives is always playing out. In fact, we can lead perfectly moral lives and be reborn as hedgehogs because it can be any kamma that decides the rebirth citta. But I have yet to find a sutta that discourages us from having faith that the kammas that we generate in this life are not far more likely to be the ones that play out, the Buddha again and again encourages us to behave well in order to improve our shot at a favourable rebirth. (It might seems surprising, but birth in the human realm is considered very, very fortunate in the grand scheme of things, and if we lose this human status the probability of regaining it is compared to the probability that a blind sea turtle swimming in the great seas will happen to surface through a yoke floating on the surface! We have a lot to feel grateful for, there was very good kamma in past lives for us to be born as humans, so even when things are not going well we should keep that in mind and not squander this rare, rare opportunity to learn from the Buddha with our human minds and human tongues! (I heard recently that one Thai teacher says we should bow down to our tongues every day, because so much harm is done through speaking, and the fact that we were born human indicates that good speaking was done by us in the past.) >. > > I see. I've done enough meditation to know that the mind shifts around a lot. But, I have to say, the rate at which thoughts go through my mind, is really small, compared to when I started two years ago. There are very few thoughts going on, and not much in the way of sesations. Ph: Really? If you sit and watch the breath and maybe count the breaths as recommended by the great Buddhist commentarial manual Visudhimagga (it recommends between 5 and 10, if I recall, I use 7) don't you find the mind leaping around, or nodding off? The Buddha said that nothing is as swift and leaping around-ish as the mind. For me, meditation usually just reminds me of how strong my hindrances are... > > Right. I now know my woods very well, as I often go into the woods to find something inspirational. I usually don't come back empty handed. We own 5 acres of old growth deciduous forest, and then, there is another 5 acres with nobody living there, and I think it belongs to the person who owns the cornfield beyond the woods. One day, I even got lost in our own woods! Anyway, I go onto their property as I'm sure they don't mind and so I got lost in around 10 acres of woods. Oh, except the neighbors to the north and south of us, have 5 acre lots as well. Nothing is well staked and I try to stay off their property, but then I'm looking at 20 acres of woods to get lost into! I'm bringing my compass next time! Ph: THere is either a great Robert Frost poem here or a very helpful Buddhist metaphor. "Don't be a traveller," the Buddha said, and there are great metaphors of the six senses as six animals that come to lie down by the post they are tied to by mindfulness of the body. (Most commonly achieved through meditating on the breath.) So while it is wonderful to go looking for things to inspire us, we also have to keep in mind that it is our senses hunger for sense objects that leads to so much trouble. An interesting double edged sword! I've been a bit too talkative here recently, so I'm going to retreat to lurking again, but nice to meet you Ari. Oh, by the way, re your other post, bodhicitta is a concept from Mahayana Buddhism, as practiced in East Asia. It doesn't exist in Theravada Buddhism which is being discussed here. There is not the idea of becoming the Buddha or developing our Buddha mind, as far as I know. Of course we are hugely inspired by and grateful to the Buddha, but we don't have aspirations to become him! THe goal is four stages of awakening, starting with Sotapanna (usually translated as stream enterer) which means we will only be reborn a maximum (?) of seven more times. Bye for now. Metta, Phil #110149 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:48 pm Subject: Re: should one try one's best? gazita2002 hallo RobE, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "epsteinrob" wrote: > > Hi Azita. : > > > Even breathing, mindfulness and the jhanacittas are to be known as dhammas that arise and fall away, are anatta, anicca and therefore dukkha. > > Supposing I had used anyone of the objects described in Vis. for the development of concentration and kusala calm, this would be a very good thing for the suppression of the hindrances eg lobha: however unless insight is developed to the degree that knows that these higher states of kusala are anatta, anicca and therefore dukkha, then 'I' am still in Samsara and the defilements are not eradicated only suppressed. Only by insight can realities be known as fleeting dhammas and as a result detachment to the all occurs. > > I agree that jhana only sets the ground for enlightenment if insight is adequately developed and applied to the experience of the jhana, as Nina has recently highlighted in her review of the Vis.'s description of the anapanasati tetrad regarding jhana and insight. > > There is no doubt that such a practice is one thing if the conditions for insight have been developed, and quite another if it is done merely to suppress the hindrances. Insight "takes advantage" of the suppression of the hindrances and the deep peace and bliss of the jhanas in order to more clearly understand the nature of dhammas. It is in that light that anapansati can provide the ground for accumulating the tendencies and creating the conditions for this to occur. Azita: Insight "takes advantage" - this sounds odd to me. Why would insight need an advantage - it jst arises, knows its object and falls away. The hindrances have to be known as realities not belonging to anyone, not 'mine' not 'me' for example. As this occurs more often then there is the detachment from concepts that we take for self. This deep peace and bliss of the jhanas can be object of attachment, especially if after coming out of the jhanic state, one still takes it for 'my blissful state'. what do you think, Rob? patience, courage and good cheer, azita #110150 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:20 pm Subject: Re: should one try one's best? epsteinrob Hi Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > 110149 > > > > > > > Azita: Insight "takes advantage" - this sounds odd to me. Why would insight need an advantage - it just arises, knows its object and falls away. Well, it may be a slightly poetic way of putting it, but what I am saying is that the calm and suppresion of hindrances of the jhanas are conditions that allow for the arising of insight in that case, you see what I mean? I don't think insight is lying in wait for its chance to jump at the jhanas or anything, but I do think it is advantageous for the development of insight in that situation. > The hindrances have to be known as realities not belonging to anyone, not 'mine' not 'me' for example. As this occurs more often then there is the detachment from concepts that we take for self. > > This deep peace and bliss of the jhanas can be object of attachment, especially if after coming out of the jhanic state, one still takes it for 'my blissful state'. > > what do you think, Rob? Well I think your preceding paragraph really answered the question of the succeeding paragraph. If insight is well developed enough to see the jhanas as not-self, temporary and still presenting subtle dukkha, even if partially suppressed, then it will detach from the bliss of the jhana, rather than clinging to it, as it will be clear that it is still dukkha, even if subtle. I have read some descriptions of the detailed experiences that are expected when one follows the path of insight without jhana, and it is a pretty rough ride. The jhanas do soften the path to enlightenment. If one has the propensity, I think it is a more "pleasant" path, not that ultimately that is the main concern. And yes, if one develops jhana without insight, I'm sure it can be quite addictive and have the potential to stall one's progress. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #110151 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Who am I? nilovg Dear Ari, Op 20-sep-2010, om 17:23 heeft a_true_lotus het volgende geschreven: > Right. I now know my woods very well, as I often go into the woods > to find something inspirational. ------ N: I share your love of nature. We were very close to three deer and they were not scared. We could watch them for quite a time, one of them starting to lie down. I understand that it must be hard to understand: there is no person, no deer, only mental phenomena and physical phenomena arising and falling away. But it is the truth. It takes a long time before we can grasp it and we have to be patient. What the Buddha taught about dukkha is not really pessimistic. It is the truth. He also taught the way out of dukkha, but that is a long way. We cannot understand all at once. Bodhi-citta: the citta that awakens to the truth. The Buddha attained enlightenment and penetrated the truth of all phenomena. BTW, I was a little scared when getting your letter with another name: Michelle and did not want to answer it. What is your actual name? Nina. #110152 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best? nilovg Dear Rob Ep, Op 21-sep-2010, om 6:20 heeft epsteinrob het volgende geschreven: > I have read some descriptions of the detailed experiences that are > expected when one follows the path of insight without jhana, and it > is a pretty rough ride. The jhanas do soften the path to > enlightenment. If one has the propensity, I think it is a more > "pleasant" path, not that ultimately that is the main concern. ------- N: Provided one has true accumulations and does not take for jhaana which is not jhaana. Once you used the word lubrification and this is what a commentary said about jhaana. Insight without jhaana: dry insight and more tiring. This is on Rob K's web. I translated this bit of co. for him. I cannot find it now. But it all depends on conditions. It does not worry me, because such and such are the conditions for me and why overreach? As to your other questions, very, very good and I really have to consider them. Much appreciated. Quote from a post by Rob K: When the texts talk about meditation, jhaya, it is useful to know that there are two types. The Dhammapada 371 :"Meditate, o bhikkhu and be not heedless." (same pali phrase as the sutta you quoted above. The atthakatha says "o bhikkhus meditate by the two kinds of meditative absorptions" And the tika notes that this is twofold in "the sense of meditative absorption that arises depending on an object and meditative absorption that arises dependent on characteristics" The tika later explains this by saying that the first is (p506 note 6 of carter and palihawadana) "the eight attainments (jhanas) to be obtained by training the mind in concentrating on one of the thirty eight objects such as kasina [or metta, or Buddha or Dhamma or breath etc] and the second means 'insight wisdom, path and fruit'..to be obtained by reflecting on the three characteristics'"endquote Now when it says 'reflecting' this means direct insight into the actual characteristics and conditions of the present moment right up to the vipassana nanas and magga and phala. The Dhammapada pradipaya (see p457 of carter) says "to consider the coming into being of rupa on account of ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition, and also to see the mere characteristics of its instantaneous coming into being, without looking for causative aspect; thus one should consider the rise of rupa in five ways. Likewise to consider the rise of the other 4 khandas in the same way...Thus the rise of the pancakkhanda (five aggregates )is seen in 25 ways. To see that the rise of the khandas is stopped by abolishing the causes:ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition..in this way the cessation of the agregates should be seen" end quote ------- Nina. #110153 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:45 am Subject: dry insight. nilovg Dear Rob Ep, I found the text on Rob K's forum: In the commentary to Aane~njasappaaya sutta (MN 106) it is said: Uparipannasa-Atthakatha 4.67 [i QUOTE ]Samaapatti.m taava pada.t.thaana.m katvaa vipassana.m va.d.dhetvaa[/i] When he has made the attainment of jhana the proximate cause of insight and increased vipassana, arahatta.m ga.nhanto bhikkhu naava.m vaa u.lumpaadiini vaa nissaaya and he attains arahatship, the bhikkhu who is as it were depending on a boat or a raft mahogha.m taritvaa paara.m gacchanto viya na kilamati. crosses the great flood and reaches the other side, is not tired. ========================== Rob K: The above is the path of the great ones of the past who attained arahatship using mundane jhana as basis. These are the highest type of arahant. Below is the path of the Sukkhavipassaka- the very lowest type of arahant. [ QUOTE i]Sukkhavipassako pana paki.n.nakasa'nkhaare sammasitvaa arahatta.m ga.nhanto[/i] But the person with dry insight who has thoroughly known the particular conditioned dhamma and attains arahatship, baahubalena sota.m chinditvaa paara.m gacchanto viya kilamati. after he has as it were cut the stream with much force and reaches the other side, is tired. ------- Nina. #110154 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:50 am Subject: Re: dry insight. epsteinrob Thank you Nina. I really enjoyed reading this material. Even though it is short and sweet, there is something very affirming about it. It shows that both paths are effective, whether one is given to jhana or not, and a primary sense of how they differ in quality in some ways, but not in outcome. I guess one would be overjoyed enough either to be a "lower" or a "higher" arahat, whatever is given, so I will not be fussy. :-) Best, Robert E. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > When he has made the attainment of jhana the proximate cause of > insight and increased vipassana, > and he attains arahatship, the bhikkhu who is as it were depending on > a boat or a raft > crosses the great flood and reaches the other side, is not tired. > ========================== ... #110155 From: "a_true_lotus" Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:28 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Who am I? a_true_lotus --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Ari, > Op 20-sep-2010, om 17:23 heeft a_true_lotus het volgende geschreven: > > > Right. I now know my woods very well, as I often go into the woods > > to find something inspirational. > ------ > N: I share your love of nature. We were very close to three deer and > they were not scared. We could watch them for quite a time, one of > them starting to lie down. > I understand that it must be hard to understand: there is no person, > no deer, only mental phenomena and physical phenomena arising and > falling away. But it is the truth. It takes a long time before we can > grasp it and we have to be patient. Well, right. But can't we enjoy the deer? We also have deer, but sadly both neighbors on each side, have hunting stands, and kill dear to help with groceries. > What the Buddha taught about dukkha is not really pessimistic. It is > the truth. He also taught the way out of dukkha, but that is a long > way. We cannot understand all at once. > Bodhi-citta: the citta that awakens to the truth. The Buddha attained > enlightenment and penetrated the truth of all phenomena. > BTW, I was a little scared when getting your letter with another > name: Michelle and did not want to answer it. What is your actual name? > > Nina. Don't be scared, I'm on some lists where I prefer people don't know who I am due to the nature of the lists and I want to remain anonymous. So, I go by Michell as my internet ID. I then just forgot to log out of that account, and answered a post. My real name is Arianna Elise Lindemann. I think I am subbed under aelindemannATyahoo.com . . . . . Anyway, I'm changing my last name soon, to a spiritual Sanskrit name given to me by a Vedic astrologer. That will be extra confusing when I do the legal change! Sorry to freak you out! I will take greater care to log into this account before I answer any posts. I think what is interesting about your group is that you CAN post from outside the group. Most groups, you have to be a member before you get to see any messages. I feel for this list, I am safe in using my real name. I don't think you allow any bullying here and I am safe. Best, Ari #110156 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:44 am Subject: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best? epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Once you used the word lubrification and this is what a commentary > said about jhaana. Insight without jhaana: dry insight and more > tiring. Thank you for that - helpful to hear it said that way. > Quote from a post by Rob K: > > When the texts talk about meditation, jhaya, it is useful to know > that there are two types. ... > "the sense of meditative absorption that arises depending on an > object and meditative absorption that arises dependent on > characteristics" ... ...the > first is..."the eight > attainments (jhanas) to be obtained by training the mind in > concentrating on one of the thirty eight objects such as kasina [or > metta, or Buddha or Dhamma or breath etc] ...and the second means > 'insight wisdom, path and fruit'..to be obtained by reflecting on the > three characteristics'"endquote ... ...consider the coming into being of rupa > on account of ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition, and also to > see the mere characteristics of its instantaneous coming into being, > without looking for causative aspect; thus one should consider the > rise of rupa in five ways. Likewise to consider the rise of the other > 4 khandas in the same way...Thus the rise of the pancakkhanda (five > aggregates )is seen in 25 ways. To see that the rise of the khandas > is stopped by abolishing the causes:ignorance, craving, kamma and > nutrition..in this way the cessation of the agregates should be seen" I broke out the main substantive sections of this to consider it a bit more clearly. It's very helpful information for me to go over. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #110157 From: "a_true_lotus" Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:18 am Subject: Re: Who am I? a_true_lotus --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Ari, and all > > > Right. When I ask myself "Who Am I" day after day, the answer changes. I am a depressed woman, I am a dynamic woman, it always changes. > > Ph: Right. But rather than day by day, more like moment by moment? Technically speaking, when we get deep into the Buddha's teaching (or the commentaries that followed and sometimes supply a much more momentary aspect then the suttas do) we find that there are different "Aris" rising and falling away in the flash of an eye. Our distorted perception gives the impression of a lasting person. True. Though I can be depressed for days on end. But, yes, yesterday, I was determined to start an exercise routine after now 2 months of physical therapy for whiplash. So, I was "determined" Ari and then "exercising Ari". And I'm sure there are smaller shifts that I"m not noticing. I should mention I have depression/anxiety diagnosis. The meditation has really helped a lot. More than any pill I've ever taken. > > > So, I now believe that karma may affect us in a next lifetime, but that many aspects of karma are really out of our control and the "rules" of karma are really beyond us. > > Ph: From what I understand, kamma from past lives is always playing out. In fact, we can lead perfectly moral lives and be reborn as hedgehogs because it can be any kamma that decides the rebirth citta. But I have yet to find a sutta that discourages us from having faith that the kammas that we generate in this life are not far more likely to be the ones that play out, the Buddha again and again encourages us to behave well in order to improve our shot at a favourable rebirth. (It might seems surprising, but birth in the human realm is considered very, very fortunate in the grand scheme of things, and if we lose this human status the probability of regaining it is compared *See, I used to believe that but since the tornado, I have not believed it. I've always been a very "nice" person, and not broken laws, or hurt other people, etc. Yet this tornado struck our house and tore it to bits. The entire neighborhood was in ruin, and a little boy died, and it's hard to imagine what any of us, especially the little boy, did that was so wrong, that we would be torn apart by a tornado. *I guess at least I lived! :-) And all my pets, also lived. 3 cats and 3 dogs. > to the probability that a blind sea turtle swimming in the great seas will happen to surface through a yoke floating on the surface! We have a lot to feel grateful for, there was very good kamma in past lives for us to be born as humans, so even when things are not going well we should keep that in mind and not squander this rare, rare > opportunity to learn from the Buddha with our human minds and human tongues! (I heard recently that one Thai teacher says we should bow down to our tongues every day, because so much harm is done through speaking, and the fact that we were born human indicates that good speaking was done by us in the past.) *Yeah, we just heard of a woman who was in her 50's who died of a stroke. I'm also at high risk for stroke because my cholesterol is off the charts. My mother also died young of cancer. *It makes you think, and wonder, how long you have left, and I find this is fueling my practice. EVERY DAY is so important! > > I see. I've done enough meditation to know that the mind shifts around a lot. But, I have to say, the rate at which thoughts go through my mind, is really small, compared to when I started two years ago. There are very few thoughts going on, and not much in the way of sesations. > > Ph: Really? If you sit and watch the breath and maybe count the breaths as recommended by the great Buddhist commentarial manual > Visudhimagga (it recommends between 5 and 10, if I recall, I use 7) don't you find the mind leaping around, or nodding off? Nope. My mind starts out, with very slow thoughts, then as I really get into my meditation, I get to a state where, there really are limited thoughts - like maybe 1 per minute? I think this happens because I'm constantly counting my breath, and that takes up all my attention. Ha, ha, ha! Nodding off! I suffer from horrible insomnia, and have to take pills to fall asleep. I never nod off. I wish I could! The Buddha said that nothing is as swift and leaping around-ish as the mind. For me, meditation usually just reminds me of how strong my hindrances are... Well, depending upon what is going on, the first 20 minutes can be a little bit disturbed, but if I find it is still disturbed, I do another 20 minutes and that really helps. I think the big shift for me, in meditation, is 20 minutes and beyond, to get into a deeper state. The first 20 minutes, for me, is just settling in. > > Right. I now know my woods very well, as I often go into the woods to find something inspirational. I usually don't come back empty handed. We own 5 acres of old growth deciduous forest, and then, there is another 5 acres with nobody living there, and I think it belongs to the person who owns the cornfield beyond the woods. One day, I even got lost in our own woods! Anyway, I go onto their property as I'm sure they don't mind and so I got lost in around 10 acres of woods. Oh, except the neighbors to the north and south of us, have 5 acre lots as well. Nothing is well staked and I try to stay off their property, but then I'm looking at 20 acres of woods to get lost into! I'm bringing my compass next time! > > > Ph: THere is either a great Robert Frost poem here or a very helpful Buddhist metaphor. "Don't be a traveller," the Buddha said, and there are great metaphors of the six senses as six animals that come to lie down by the post they are tied to by mindfulness of the body. (Most commonly achieved through meditating on the breath.) So while it is wonderful to go looking for things to inspire us, we also have to keep in mind that it is our senses hunger for sense objects that leads to so much trouble. An interesting double edged sword! Sure, it's not a perfect system. As I mentioned before, I suffer from depression pretty frequently. Right now, not horrible but a little bit. For me, trying to find something inspirational actually overlaps with gratitude, and makes my life seem much more like an adventure and less of a depressing, never ending list of chores! > I've been a bit too talkative here recently, so I'm going to retreat > to lurking again, but nice to meet you Ari. > > Oh, by the way, re your other post, bodhicitta is a concept from Mahayana Buddhism, as practiced in East Asia. It doesn't exist in Theravada Buddhism which is being discussed here. There is not the idea of becoming the Buddha or developing our Buddha mind, as far as I know. Of course we are > hugely inspired by and grateful to the Buddha, but we don't have > aspirations to become him! THe goal is four stages of awakening, starting with Sotapanna (usually translated as stream enterer) which means we will only be reborn a maximum (?) of seven more times. > > Bye for now. > > Metta, > > Phil Thanks for your post, Phil. Best, Ari > #110158 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Who am I? nilovg Dear Ari, Op 21-sep-2010, om 16:28 heeft a_true_lotus het volgende geschreven: > Well, right. But can't we enjoy the deer? We also have deer, but > sadly both neighbors on each side, have hunting stands, and kill > dear to help with groceries. ------ N: Of course w ecan enjoy deer. Life goes on normally, but slowly we can gain a little more understanding about what is real, about life. Yes, you are safe here, no bullying. I am glad you solved the puzzle about Michelle. The spammers are so clever and the other day we were tricked into sending money, but I remembered Sarah who had a similar case. Nina #110159 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:22 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best? gazita2002 Hallo Nina and RobE Thank you Nina, this is very interesting information. Rob, I think Nina has made a good point by her comment on accumulations. I think we have to be really honest with ourselves and therefore know at least to some degree, our accumulations. I guess I jst want to emphasise the importance of knowing the present moment as it arises - no need to go looking for jhana, or trying to have jhana cittas; the cittas that arise now have objects that can be known, why not start right now by being aware of whatever object appears patiencee, courage and good cheer azita > Dear Rob Ep, > Op 21-sep-2010, om 6:20 heeft epsteinrob het volgende geschreven: > > > I have read some descriptions of the detailed experiences that are > > expected when one follows the path of insight without jhana, and it > > is a pretty rough ride. The jhanas do soften the path to > > enlightenment. If one has the propensity, I think it is a more > > "pleasant" path, not that ultimately that is the main concern. > ------- > N: Provided one has true accumulations and does not take for jhaana > which is not jhaana. > Once you used the word lubrification and this is what a commentary > said about jhaana. Insight without jhaana: dry insight and more > tiring. This is on Rob K's web. I translated this bit of co. for him. > I cannot find it now. But it all depends on conditions. It does not > worry me, because such and such are the conditions for me and why > overreach? > As to your other questions, very, very good and I really have to > consider them. Much appreciated. > > Quote from a post by Rob K: > > When the texts talk about meditation, jhaya, it is useful to know > that there are two types. The Dhammapada 371 :"Meditate, o bhikkhu > and be not heedless." (same pali phrase as the sutta you quoted > above. The atthakatha says "o bhikkhus meditate by the two kinds of > meditative absorptions" And the tika notes that this is twofold in > "the sense of meditative absorption that arises depending on an > object and meditative absorption that arises dependent on > characteristics" The tika later explains this by saying that the > first is (p506 note 6 of carter and palihawadana) "the eight > attainments (jhanas) to be obtained by training the mind in > concentrating on one of the thirty eight objects such as kasina [or > metta, or Buddha or Dhamma or breath etc] and the second means > 'insight wisdom, path and fruit'..to be obtained by reflecting on the > three characteristics'"endquote > > Now when it says 'reflecting' this means direct insight into the > actual characteristics and conditions of the present moment right up > to the vipassana nanas and magga and phala. The Dhammapada pradipaya > (see p457 of carter) says "to consider the coming into being of rupa > on account of ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition, and also to > see the mere characteristics of its instantaneous coming into being, > without looking for causative aspect; thus one should consider the > rise of rupa in five ways. Likewise to consider the rise of the other > 4 khandas in the same way...Thus the rise of the pancakkhanda (five > aggregates )is seen in 25 ways. To see that the rise of the khandas > is stopped by abolishing the causes:ignorance, craving, kamma and > nutrition..in this way the cessation of the agregates should be seen" > end quote > ------- > Nina. > > > > > > > #110160 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:59 pm Subject: Re: dry insight. truth_aerator Hello Robert, Nina all, Noble 8 Fold path is required for awakening. Samma-Samadhi includes 4 Jhanas Therefore Jhanas are required for awakening. The famous 4 paths to awakening that Ven. Ananda has taught ALL involve samadhi/samatha either prior, after, during or instead of vipassana. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.170.than.html Ven. Ananda described 11 gateways for liberation from which one can awaken. 7 jhanas + 4 brahmaviharas (which do lead to jhanas). All these are considered to be samatha subjects. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an11/an11.017.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.052.than.html Jhana is the only 4 Meditative absorptions thay Buddha praised. MN108 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.108.than.html BTW, even for meditation subjects leading to "access" very strong formal meditation is required - this is according to VsM. But I am yet to find any place where the Buddha allowed "access" to replace 4 Jhanas of samma-samadhi (8th factor of N8P). With metta, Alex #110161 From: "bhikkhu3" Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:45 pm Subject: Sand-Castles! bhikkhu5 Friends: What causes this possessive Clinging to what is Painful? At Savatthi, while seated, Venerable R adha asked the Blessed Buddha: Venerable Sir, one says: "A Being!" In what way, Sir, is one a being? When one is stuck, Radha, tightly stuck, in desire, lust, delight, & craving for form, then one is called a being! When one is trapped within yearning, longing, fascination, and craving for feeling, for perception, for mental constructions and for all the various forms of consciousness, in so far as this violent force of clinging is still active, then one is defined as a being... Imagine, Radha, some small boys & girls who are playing with sand castles. So long as they are not devoid of desire, affection, attraction, delight, & fascination for those sand castles, then they will like them, play with them, treasure & guard them, be obsessed with them & treat them possessively... But as soon as the small boys & girls lose their desire, delight, affection, attraction, and fascination for those sand castles, then they scatter them with their hands & feet, bulldoze them, shatter them, and eradicate them! So too should you, Radha, scatter form, destroy it, shatter it, eradicate it by practicing the stilling of all craving for form. So too should you scatter feeling, scatter perception, scatter constructions, & scatter consciousness, demolish it, shatter it, tear it down, by the practicing of the destruction of craving. For this destruction of craving, R adha, is peace, is all freedom, is pure bliss... Absence of craving, Radha, is Nibbana... <..> Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya 23:2 III 190 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * <...> #110162 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:36 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best? epsteinrob Hi Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > Hallo Nina and RobE > > Thank you Nina, this is very interesting information. > > Rob, I think Nina has made a good point by her comment on accumulations. I think we have to be really honest with ourselves and therefore know at least to some degree, our accumulations. > > I guess I just want to emphasise the importance of knowing the present moment as it arises - no need to go looking for jhana, or trying to have jhana cittas; the cittas that arise now have objects that can be known, why not start right now by being aware of whatever object appears That is always a good idea, and is the basic life-practice from moment to moment. It is also the practice of "dry insight" without the jhanas. Starting from there and even continuing from there, is great. But then that does not rule out jhana if one has the potential for it. So how would you know if you are meant to do jhana, dry insight, or just straight pariyati with dhamma? Well, I don't think you'll have a desire for jhana unless your accumulations are resonating with it in some way, so if you feel like investigating it, it probably means something is up. If there is only one possibility and conditions and accumulations will work like clockwork to cause jhana to arise, or to start you noticing what's arising in the moment, then that is one thing. I don't think it's that predetermined, although it still will all be caused by conditions, accumulations and whatever arises in the moment. But to know the difference between one path and another is also part of understanding in my view. All of it takes place in the present moment, whatever takes place, and that is worth knowing too. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #110163 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:38 pm Subject: Re: dry insight. epsteinrob Hi Alex. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello Robert, Nina all, > > Noble 8 Fold path is required for awakening. > Samma-Samadhi includes 4 Jhanas > Therefore Jhanas are required for awakening. > > The famous 4 paths to awakening that Ven. Ananda has taught ALL involve samadhi/samatha either prior, after, during or instead of vipassana. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.170.than.html > > > Ven. Ananda described 11 gateways for liberation from which one can awaken. 7 jhanas + 4 brahmaviharas (which do lead to jhanas). All these are considered to be samatha subjects. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an11/an11.017.than.html > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.052.than.html > > Jhana is the only 4 Meditative absorptions thay Buddha praised. MN108 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.108.than.html > > > BTW, even for meditation subjects leading to "access" very strong formal meditation is required - this is according to VsM. But I am yet to find any place where the Buddha allowed "access" to replace 4 Jhanas of samma-samadhi (8th factor of N8P). You have raised a good point, and it is worth investigating. I'd like to hear what others think about this point. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #110164 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:04 pm Subject: Re: An afternoon with Pt - round 3 ptaus1 Hi RobE, KenO, all, A few things relevant to our discussions that I was able to discuss with Sarah and Jon last weekend. 1. Regarding insight proper that takes a dhamma as the object of citta - in previous messages I wrote that it's supposed to happen in one mind-door process which follows a previous sense-door process, or a previous mind-door process. However, Sarah corrected me that insight happens in AT LEAST one mind-door process - so it could be one or more mind-door processes in which a dhamma is the object, which would then be followed by mind-door processes that take up concepts as the object. She also said that there's more information on this topic in the Dispeller of delusion (commentary on Vibhanga) and in the commentary to abhidhammattha sangaha, which can be found in English in the translation of AS by Rupert Gethin and A.S.Wijeratne. 2. Regarding right intellectual understanding which takes concepts as the object of cittas - Jon pointed out that this is not academic knowledge as such. As I understood him, right intellectual understanding actually has to do with relating the present experience to anatta. The more there's such understanding, the closer it gets to actual insight proper. 3. I've also asked about not being certain whether what I'm experiencing at the moment is a particular kind of dhamma or another - for example, when touching something, I'm not really sure whether I'm actually experiencing hardness (rupa) or is it a perception (of hardness - nama). Sarah pointed out that most likely in these cases the reality/dhamma at that moment is probably thinking and doubt. So, I think for beginners doubt is probably the most accessible dhamma :) Of course, whatever arises at present - even if it's doubt, can be understood in light of anatta. And I guess that would then be an instance of right intellectual understanding. 4. I've also mentioned how difficult it was for me to understand that just the fact that I'm putting in effort into something does not necessarily mean that it's kusala effort. Only when I started learning abhidhamma did this point come across - i.e. that pretty much any activity can be either kusala or akusala, and more precisely - effort, concentration, perception, attention, etc, can be kusala or akusala depending on the citta. Hence, the importance of understanding the difference between the two experientially. (Sarah, this was a discussion that Jon and me sneaked in without you, while fixing the printer :) 5. And there was the topic of small talk, which is not really related to any present discussions here - the issue of how difficult I find it sometimes to engage in small talk with people, even though it's the only way to relate to them - i.e. talking about the weather, how's the family, etc. Sarah pointed out that even the Buddha engaged in "small talk" - I think in the suttas it's often described as the exchange of cordial greetings. So, it's not so much about what's being said - even if it's about the weather, or family - but the point is that it's about the citta - for example if it's said with metta, that would be kusala, while if it's done reluctantly - then it's probably with akusala cittas. Same deal as with effort, concentration, etc. Best wishes pt #110165 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:35 pm Subject: Re: dry insight. kenhowardau Hi Robert E (and Alex), ------------- <. . .> RE: > You have raised a good point, and it is worth investigating. I'd like to hear what others think about this point. -------------- It would help if you were to specify which point you were referring to and explain why it was a good one, worth investigating. Alex said that the 8fold path was required for awakening. But he didn't say what the 8fold path was. Is it is a path in the *conventional* sense that people can walk, or otherwise progress, along. Or is it (as I understand it to be) a conditioned dhamma, beyond anyone's control? He said the four jhanas were part of the path, but he didn't explain what he meant by that. Did he mean Right Concentration was the four jahnas arising together in a single citta? Does he realise that the mundane (samatha) jhanas take a concept - not a conditioned dhamma, and not nibbana - as their object? He also mentioned the "eleven gateways for liberation" and I believe he was saying every ariyan became liberated via one of those gateways - so there could be no dry insight (despite textual assertions to the contrary)! Then he said jhana was the only meditative absorption praised by the Buddha. I didn't know there were *other* meditative absorptions. Are there? Then he claimed that the Visuddhimagga taught "formal meditation." In other words, that it taught the ultimate efficacy of 'sentient beings and their activities' as distinct from the ultimate efficacy of 'conditioned dhammas and their functions.' Then he made an obscure point about access concentration, the relevance of which was lost on me. I don't know which of those was the "good point worth investigating" but I can assure that the general gist of them - that vipassana is just a conventional path like any other - has been investigated hundreds, if not thousands, of times on DSG. And at least you have some idea of what I think about it. :-) Ken H #110166 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An afternoon with Pt - round 3 nilovg Dear pt (and Lukas), Op 22-sep-2010, om 6:04 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > And there was the topic of small talk, which is not really related > to any present discussions here - the issue of how difficult I find > it sometimes to engage in small talk with people, even though it's > the only way to relate to them - i.e. talking about the weather, > how's the family, etc. Sarah pointed out that even the Buddha > engaged in "small talk" - I think in the suttas it's often > described as the exchange of cordial greetings. So, it's not so > much about what's being said - even if it's about the weather, or > family - but the point is that it's about the citta - for example > if it's said with metta, ------ N: Thank you for your report. Later on I would like to react to some of these, but for now just this. I used to be very sad while during our visit in Sri Lanka, there often was small talk instead of Dhamma talk. I also spoke about this with the late Ven. Dhammadharo. He reminded me of animal, such as talk about kings. He said that it all depends, one can think: even kings have to die. And as Sarah said, it depends on the citta. One can talk about someone's flowers and have mudita, sympathetic joy, about someone else's kusala vipaaka. I liked the idea of Dhamma talk while fixing the printer with Jon. It is all so daily! ------- Nina. #110167 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:02 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiitisutta 328, 6.20 and commentary. nilovg Dear friends, Sangiitisutta 328, 6.20 Walshe DN 33.2.2(20) 'Six stable states (satata-vihaaraa): *1105 On seeing an object with the eye, hearing a sound ..., smelling a smell ..., tasting a flavour ..., touching a tangible object ... or cognising a mental object with the mind, one is neither pleased (sumano) nor displeased (dummano), but remains equable (upekhako), mindful and clearly aware. ------- N: The co. explains that the stable state (satata-vihaaraa) is the constant abiding of the arahat who has eradicated the intoxicants (aasavas). Tiika: He has established constant dwelling in stability, both at the time of attainment and at the time of bhavangacitta. The arahat dwells all the time in the sixfold equanimity (cha.la?ngupekkhaa). N: There are several aspects to equanimity (See Visuddhimagga Ch IV, 156-172). Depending on the context, equanimity, upekkhaa, can refer to indifferent feeling, or to the sobhana cetasika tatramajjhattataa. It can refer to equanimity of energy, equanimity of jhaana, equanimity of insight. The sixfold equanimity is the equanimity of the arahat with regard to the objects appearing through the six doors. -------- As to the words, having seen an object with the eye..., the co. explains that when an object has appeared through the eye-door, and he has seen that ruupa with seeing-consciousness, then at the time of the javanacittas he is not attached nor is he happy with regard to desirable objects, and he is not annoyed nor is he unhappy with regard to undesirable objects. He does not originate moha by lack of consideration, and dwells with equanimity and evenmindedness, endowed with sati sampaja~n~na (sati and pa~n~naa). The Tiika elaborates on the words, having seen an object with the eye. This is an expression in conventional language, and it should be understood as having seen with seeing-consciousness. As to not being attached to desirable objects, the Tiika adds, because attachment has been eradicated by the magga-citta. As to feeling happy, this refers to the affection of the homelife (worldly life). The co: as to sampaja~n~na, there is an opportunity for this when the four mahaa- kiriyacittas cittas accompanied by pa~n~naa (~naa.na- sampayutta) arise. As to the words endowed with sati sampaja~n~na, the Tiika adds that this is due to abundant practice and a great amount of pa~n~naa. (pa.tipattivepullapatti..pa~n~naavepullapatti) The Tiika states that because of sati sampaja~n~na there is this sixfold equanimity proceeding with regard to the six doorways. And without the cittas accompanied by pa~n~naa there would not have been the growth of sampaja~n~na. The co: as to constant dwelling in stability satatavihaara), this also refers to the eight mahaa-kiriya cittas (also those without pa~n~naa) since there is no attachment and no aversion, and also to ten cittas. The Tiika adds that here are meant the eight mahaa-kiriyacittas, the hasituppaadacitta (smile producing citta of the arahat which is an ahetuka kiriyacitta) and the votthapana-citta, the ahetuka kiriyacitta arising just before the javana-cittas. The co asks, how can there be somanassa? The answer is: because of repeatetd occurrence (aasevanato). ----- N: Of the eight mahaa-kiriyacittas, four are accompanied by happy feeling and four by indifferent feeling. We have to remember that the eightfold upekkhaa is not indifferent feeling but equanimity with understanding. ------- The Tiika elaborates on this. Somanassa, happy feeling, occurs by itself, spontaneously. Although the arahat dwells with great equanimity towards desirable or undesirable objects, and does not abandon his natural state of purity, sometimes there is citta with somanassa when he experiences a pleasant object, because of former repeated occurrence (pubbaasevanavasena). -------- N: So long as one is not an arahat one is infatuated with desirable objects and one has aversion towards undesirable objects. We can come to understand that happy feeling is disturbing, that it causes one to cling to gain, praise, honour and bodily wellbeing, to the desirable worldly conditions. When we do not obtain what we like there is bound to be aversion. It is an endlessly long way to reach arahatship, but the only way is developing understanding of this moment, be it kusala or akusala, desirable or undesirable. As we read, sati sampaja~n~na that arise in the course of vipassanaa is due to abundant practice and a great amount of development of pa~n~naa. Whether we experience a desirable object or an undesirable object is due to past kamma and nobody can control this. If we understand this fact, it will help us to be less taken in by the objects we experience. All day long objects are experienced through the six doorways and it depends on wise attention or unwise attention whether kusala cittas arise or akusala cittas. ---------- Nina. #110168 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:09 am Subject: Abhidhamma Series no 29, The Seven Books of the Abhidhamma (part 6). nilovg Dear friends, The Seven Books of the Abhidhamma (part 6). The Sixth Book of the Abhidhamma is the ?Yamaka?, the Book of Pairs. This book and its commentary has not been translated into English. Venerable Nyanatiloka renders a summary of it in his ?Guide through the Abhidhamma Pi.taka?. This book consists of questions and answers about subjects such as the roots (muula), the khandhas, the aayatanas, the dhaatus, the four noble truths, the conditions and the anusayas, latent tendencies. These questions and answers can correct misunderstandings that may arise about the terms used in the sriptures. For instance, one may think that with regard to the first noble Truth, the truth of dukkha, dukkha is the same as unhappy feeling. Dukkha is often translated as sorrow and this is misleading. We learn that the Truth of dukkha does not only refer to painful feeling but to all phenomena that arise because of conditions and fall away. Since they are impermanent they cannot be of any refuge and are therefore dukkha. The text of this book is rather compact and therefore it is most helpful to study it together with its commentary. We shall see that the subjects of this book are not theoretical but that they pertain to daily life. When we, for example, read about the latentent tendencies, there are short lists, but the commentary goes very deeply into this subject, it is most revealing. As we have seen, the latent tendencies are sense desire, aversion, conceit, wrong view, doubt, craving for existence and ignorance. In the text we read: ?Where does the bias of sensuous craving adhere? To the two feelings?. These are happy feeling and indifferent feeling. The commentary states: ?When the latent tendency of sense desire arises it is conascent with unwholesome pleasant feeling or indifferent feeling, and it can also take these two feelings as object. It can also take as object the feelings that accompany kusala citta, vip?kacitta and kiriyacitta of the sense-sphere.? We read in the commentary: ?When the latent tendency of sense desire arises...? We should know that the word ?arisen? (?uppanna?) has several meanings. In the context of the latent tendencies, it is said: ?arisen? in the sense of ?having obtained a soil? (bhumiladdhuppanna), which means: not cut off. ?Arisen in the sense of having obtained a soil? refers to the defilements which have not been eradicated and which have obtained a soil. Thus, the latent tendencies do not arise with the citta, they condition the arising of akusala citta. We also read in the commentary: ?Surely, the latent tendency of sense desire that adheres to an object, does not merely adhere to these two feelings and to the dhammas that are conascent with them. It also adheres to visible object that is desirable, and so on. The Buddha taught in the ?Book of Analysis? (Ch 16, Analysis of Knowledge, 816, And what is the latent tendency of beings?): ?That which in the world is a lovely thing, pleasant thing (piyaruupa.m, saataruupa.m), the latent tendency of sense desire of beings adheres to this... ? ? Thus, desirable naama dhammas and ruupa dhammas can be the objects of sense desire. When sense desire arises and has as object desirable naamas and ruupas, the accumulation of the latent tendency of sense desire continues. Whenever there is a pleasant object sense desire clings. We can verify this in daily life. The only dhammas that are not objects of clinging are the nine lokuttara dhammas of nibbaana and the eight lokuttara cittas. ******* Nina. #110169 From: "philip" Date: Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:15 am Subject: Re: Who am I? philofillet Hi again Ari. As usual, I can't tear myself away from this wonderful forum. You've found a good place. You'll come across a lot of technical Pali terms that are kind of overwhelming at first, but if you hang in there, there are amazingly friendly and supportive people. For example Nina is one of the world's leading experts on Abhidhamma and has written many respected books in the field, and here she is spending time to help us understand Dhamma better! Great! > True. Though I can be depressed for days on end. But, yes, yesterday, I was determined to start an exercise routine after now 2 months of physical therapy for whiplash. So, I was "determined" Ari and then "exercising Ari". And I'm sure there are smaller shifts that I"m not noticing. Ph: I think this sort of thing shows that you are on the right track and what you wrote about your mind settling in meditation indicates to me that you have accumulated good kamma from past lives that makes your mind susceptible to samattha (calm) and other positive aspects. Not that I know. But I know you aren't lying about your mind settling in meditation, so "you" (so to speak) have something. > > I should mention I have depression/anxiety diagnosis. The meditation has really helped a lot. More than any pill I've ever taken. Ph: I was thinking about this and it's why I wrote again. It would be an interesting insight exercise for you to keep looking at the question of which aspects of your depressions come from neurological reasons (synapses not doing their job and so on) and which come as a result of unwise behaviour. For me, all my depressions are rooted in not having guarded by senses again wanton consumption. A Vietnamese teacher that you probably know Thich Nhat Hahn once said "if you are depressed, it is because of something you consumed" and I think that other than the neuorolgical cases, this is true. We consume sights and sounds and proliferate them to thinking and stories about what we have seen, heard, and then we consume those stories, it is like we are always pigging out on the junk our mind proliferates. Meditation helps us to see what we are up to, and we can drop that burning ball that we willingly swallow much sooner. As for the neuroligical roots of depresssion, the synapses and so on, I personally think medical doctors can help in ways the Buddha can't. The combination is great! Metta, Phil p.s Now I am really out of here! #110170 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nama and rupa, was: Old age. nilovg Dear Rob Ep, Op 20-sep-2010, om 15:12 heeft epsteinrob het volgende geschreven: > The first thing to know: it is naama, just a conditioned > > dhamma. A dhamma that is an experience, different from ruupa that > > does not experience anything. > > This clarification was important to me. Forgive me if I paraphrase, > it helps me to understand better.. > If you can, please say a word about why it is so important to > distinguish rupa from nama. I know this is very basic, but I would > like to clarify. It seems it is even more important than > distinguishing between one type of nama and another type of nama; > that distinguishing rupa from nama [when they arise together?] is > the most important first step. -------- N: It is very basic. We cling so much to my mind and my body, as existing, lasting, a whole of my personality. Now we have to learn that there are only naama elements and ruupa elements, appearing one at a time. Seeing is naama and the object that is seen is ruupa, but we are not used to distinguishing them from one another. We just have an idea of 'I am seeing', instead of knowing different elements. They are present together, but only one object at a time can be known. When we become more familiar with the characteristic of the element that knows something and the element that does not experience anything, it will not be necessary to think about them. Very, very gradually there can be awareness of them if conditions permit. As you know the first stage of tender insight is knowing the difference between naama and ruupa, and before that stage is reached we do not really know the nature of naama. We can think about it, understand it in theory, but not yet through direct insight. Naama is experienced and known through the mind-door, and only at the first stage of insight we come to know what the mind-door is. Thus, before this stage we know in theory what lobha is and what dosa is, but as Kh Sujin says, it is still 'my lobha, my dosa'. We do not know them yet as 'just a dhamma'. We may erroneously let our intellectual knowledge take over and guide awareness of naama and ruupa. We may take thinking for direct understanding. It seems that there is no thinking, but thinking can be very quick, not noticeable, and the 'I' is all behind it, clinging to an idea of 'my awareness'. This is very dangerous. Long ago, in the beginning, I took thinking of a concept of lobha or dosa for awareness and was misled into thinking: how fast realities change, but I can be aware of them. It took me a whole night of Dhamma discussion with Kh Sujin and Ven. Dhammadharo in the train to Bodhgaya, to find out the truth. Kh Sujin said: 'Some people think that they have a great deal of awareness.' What a good reminder it was. Separately I shall post some parts from Rob K's web of discussions with Kh Sujin about awareness and thinking. Kh Sujin warns more often that one, instead of investigating the realities that appear, tries to fit them in with our intellectual understanding. It is the other way around: characteristics of realities are objects of awareness as they appear and then we see that what we learn here is in conformity with what was learnt from the texts. But so long as awareness is still coarse, mixed with thinking, it is hard to grasp this, I find. But sure, it is a good reminder. --------- Nina. #110171 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:55 am Subject: Awareness and thinking. 1. nilovg Dear Rob Ep and friends, Kh Sujin: Prathib: Sujin: ------- Nina. #110172 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An afternoon with Pt - round 3 sarahprocter... Dear Nina (& Pt), A great account by Pt... N: Thank you for your report. Later on I would like to react to some of these, but for now just this. I used to be very sad while during our visit in Sri Lanka, there often was small talk instead of Dhamma talk. .... S: I remember - for you the flower talk in the park in Kandy, for me the jostling and pushing in the Temple of the Tooth! Of course, dosa is just dosa - and it can be known when it arises like any other dhamma. >I also spoke about this with the late Ven. Dhammadharo. He reminded me of animal, such as talk about kings. He said that it all depends, one can think: even kings have to die. And as Sarah said, it depends on the citta. One can talk about someone's flowers and have mudita, sympathetic joy, about someone else's kusala vipaaka. I liked the idea of Dhamma talk while fixing the printer with Jon. It is all so daily! .... S: Yes, and life has to go on.... Today I was hoping to catch up on the list and with posting, but this morning we had to do a lot of household shopping and errands and this afternoon I ended up spending over a couple of hours trying to help arrange a free ticket for my mother to Sydney using my accumulated flight miles.... Good intentions initially perhaps, but a lot of impatience and frustration during the process which turned out to be much more complicated than anticipated (and still not fully resolved). But this is all "so daily", different intentions, different cittas, seeing, hearing and touching in between. Understanding the present dhamma, whatever the activity, whatever the topic, is so much more precious than thinking about whether it's a worthy activity/topic. The various namas and rupas are conditioned already! Sati and panna can arise anytime at all.... Metta Sarah ======= #110173 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dry insight. upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 9/22/2010 2:36:14 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Alex said that the 8fold path was required for awakening. But he didn't say what the 8fold path was. Is it is a path in the *conventional* sense that people can walk, or otherwise progress, along. Or is it (as I understand it to be) a conditioned dhamma, beyond anyone's control? ======================================== Ken, when you read (past-tense) what Alex and Robert wrote and you thought it over and decided to write what you just wrote and actually sat down and wrote it, lots of events occurred, all of which were namas and rupas arising and ceasing, and not even one of which involved some "actual Ken-self doing anything," All this did happen, and it involved a great deal of thinking, planning, intention, and effort. Likewise, when "people study what the Buddha taught and put it into action," the situation is the same: namas and rupas arising and ceasing, not involving any "people realities," but definitely involving a great deal of thinking, planning, intention, and effort. Talk of namas and rupas does not destroy the world of conventional activities but reveals what actually occurs that is *taken* to be everyday, commonsense events. Nama-and-rupa talk *explains*. It does not say that what happens does not happen. People do live and work and play and write email posts and live and die (as we say) - only it is not what it seems to be. (Actually, I believe this is so with respect to those "things" called "paramattha dhammas" as well, but that is a further step of understanding that we should put on the back-burner, as we don't even directly grasp the first step yet.) With metta, Howard The Aggregates are Void /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ (From the Phena Sutta) #110174 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:17 am Subject: Re: Awareness and thinking. 1. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob Ep and friends, > > Kh Sujin: one should know the truth, about the realities of the moment.> ... Thanks, Nina. It's very good to read this and understand the limitation, even interference, of holding onto names and categories, as opposed to experiencing. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #110175 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Who am I? A correction. nilovg Dear Phil, Op 22-sep-2010, om 9:15 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > For example Nina is one of the world's leading experts on > Abhidhamma and has written many respected books in the field, and > here she is spending time to help us understand Dhamma better! ----- N: A correction is fitting here. Who am I? Whatever I learnt, it comes form Acharn Sujin. She is the expert in Abhidhamma. She explains so well that all realities taught in the Abhidhamma are real life. I try to apply this lesson as best as I can, but of course I have my limitations. Nina. #110176 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what I heard. Was: An afternoon with Pt. nilovg Dear pt, I found point 2 interesting and I could add something. Op 22-sep-2010, om 6:04 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > 2. Regarding right intellectual understanding which takes concepts > as the object of cittas - Jon pointed out that this is not academic > knowledge as such. As I understood him, right intellectual > understanding actually has to do with relating the present > experience to anatta. The more there's such understanding, the > closer it gets to actual insight proper. ------- N: As I understood, seeing the present object 'as just a reality'. This a beginning of understanding anattaa. This relates to pariyatti which, as Jon said, is not academic knowledge. I just heard on the audio (DSG org), 2007-07, P c: -------- Nina. #110177 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:52 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: dry insight. nilovg Hi Howard, I find it good to consider what you write here. Op 22-sep-2010, om 13:37 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Talk of namas and rupas does not destroy the world of conventional > activities but reveals what actually occurs that is *taken* to be > everyday, > commonsense events. Nama-and-rupa talk *explains*. It does not say > that what > happens does not happen. People do live and work and play and write > email > posts and live and die (as we say) - only it is not what it seems > to be. ------ N: Things are not what they seem to be. This makes me think of the similes of the five khandhas you also like: --------- > H: (Actually, I believe this is so with respect to those "things" > called > "paramattha dhammas" as well, but that is a further step of > understanding that we > should put on the back-burner, as we don't even directly grasp the > first step > yet.) ------- N: It is so essential that I would not like to put them on the back- burner. Perhaps what I quoted from the audio to pt re pariyatti may help. Paramattha dhammas, actually these are the presently arisen realities, and nibbaana is to be excluded since it does not arise. ------ Nina. #110178 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:32 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: dry insight. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/22/2010 11:19:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: ------- N: It is so essential that I would not like to put them on the back- burner. Perhaps what I quoted from the audio to pt re pariyatti may help. Paramattha dhammas, actually these are the presently arisen realities, and nibbaana is to be excluded since it does not arise. ============================== Yes, we differ on this matter. :-) I provide a few sutta quotes at the end of this post in support of my understanding on this issue. With metta, Howard /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ (From the Phena Sutta) _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ /He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none — such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta) _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ /He who neither goes too far nor lags behind and knows about the world: "This is all unreal," — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta ) _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _ See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones know as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely stilled and realize final deliverance./ (From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta) #110179 From: "a_true_lotus" Date: Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:14 pm Subject: Re: Who am I? a_true_lotus --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Hi again Ari. > > As usual, I can't tear myself away from this wonderful forum. You've found a good place. You'll come across a lot of technical Pali terms that are kind of overwhelming at first, but if you hang in there, there are amazingly friendly and supportive people. For example Nina is one of the world's leading experts on Abhidhamma and has written many respected books in the field, and here she is spending time to help us understand Dhamma better! Great! Yes, I've just quit a nightmare forum, which I won't name but the main problem was that there was no moderation. I prefer moderation over frequent flame wars. It was hard to learn anything there. > > True. Though I can be depressed for days on end. But, yes, yesterday, I was determined to start an exercise routine after now 2 months of physical therapy for whiplash. So, I was "determined" Ari and then "exercising Ari". And I'm sure there are smaller shifts that I"m not noticing. > > Ph: I think this sort of thing shows that you are on the right track and what you wrote about your mind settling in meditation indicates to me that you have accumulated good kamma from past lives that makes your mind susceptible to samattha (calm) and other positive aspects. And tornados! :-) > Not that I know. But I know you aren't lying about your mind settling in meditation, so "you" (so to speak) have something. Yeah, it's getting pretty calm up there. My only problem now is lack of tapas, a yoga word. When I first started meditating, 2 years ago I had anxiety attacks almost every day. Now I have not had one in 16 months but the anxiety attacks drove my practice. Now I feel less disciplined to sit, but do, anyway. > > I should mention I have depression/anxiety diagnosis. The meditation has really helped a lot. More than any pill I've ever taken. > > Ph: I was thinking about this and it's why I wrote again. It would be an interesting insight exercise for you to keep looking at the question of which aspects of your depressions come from neurological reasons (synapses not doing their job and so on) and which come as a result of unwise behaviour. For me, all my depressions are rooted in not having guarded by senses again wanton consumption. Well we do consume a lot, but the things I pay for, don't cause me depression. For example, I see a personal trainer twice per week, to exercise more than I would on my own. I am not sure which works best for anxiety and depression - meditation or exercise - they run neck and neck. But, of course, it is expensive to see a personal trainer twice per week. But I think it's helping, not harming. On the other hand, I guess I woudn't consider my consumption "wanton". I used to have a shopping addiction, and was not that unusual for me to spend $5000/ month going to the mall. Now I avoid the mall entirely, as our budget cannot support that kind of spending. Or, if you mean, consumption in the sense of food, I don't really do that. A Vietnamese teacher that you probably know Thich Nhat Hahn once said "if you are depressed, it is because of something you consumed" Really??? Could you elaborate? My Vedanta teacher, a Swami says that you feel anxiety if you eat meat as the animals that were slaughtered felt fear. I don't find this to be true. Every attempt to become a vegetarian, has met with more anxiety, not less. and I think that other than the neuorolgical cases, this is true. We consume sights and sounds and proliferate them to thinking and stories about what we have seen, heard, and then we consume those stories, it is like we are always pigging out on the junk our mind proliferates. Meditation helps us to see what we are up to, and we can drop that burning ball that we willingly swallow much sooner. I see what you are saying. Or, sometimes you consume something, just to go back to your normal life. For example, we had a spiritual retreat where I got to meet with my beloved Swami and there were many lectures. It was great! I met new people. Then it was over, and I got depressed! It took me about 2 weeks to recover and get back to normal. Another example might be our upcoming trip to Maui. There you are in beautiful Hawaii, and lush and green and then when the plane lands in Minnesota, with barre trees and snow, it's depressing! > As for the neuroligical roots of depresssion, the synapses and so on, I personally think medical doctors can help in ways the Buddha can't. The combination is great! > Yes, it is a combination. I just started on a pill that is working wonders and it's an old fashioned pill but works better than the newer pills for me. It treats insomnia, depression and pain and that's a good combination, and working out great. That doesn't mean that my personal efforts and meditation don't matter, just that, they don't take the place of pills. You can't leave now, Phil, I wanted to find out the stuff about TNH and consumption! Best, Ari #110180 From: "a_true_lotus" Date: Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:18 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Who am I? A correction. a_true_lotus > N: A correction is fitting here. Who am I? Whatever I learnt, it > comes form Acharn Sujin. She is the expert in Abhidhamma. She > explains so well that all realities taught in the Abhidhamma are real > life. I try to apply this lesson as best as I can, but of course I > have my limitations. > > Nina. What's Abhidamma? Oh, and I think I'd like to explain where I am at, with my practice so things will make more sense. I actually prefer Vedanta to Buddhism. I have the fortune of a Vedanta master who has a Center here. He is my spiritual teacher, and he is a Swami. However, he is in frail health, and is going to stop doing lectures soon, and so I pick the next thing I am interested in, which is Buddhism, and that is why I will sometimes share a mix of what I have learned. I find many Vedanta and Buddhist aspects coincide, and many do not. So, what's Abhidamma? :-) Best, Ari #110181 From: "philip" Date: Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:44 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Who am I? A correction. philofillet Hi Nina Of course, and of course the main thing is not A.Sujin either, but the Buddha. But it's true that is is you who are here to help Ari understand Abhidhamma, if she's interested - A. Sujin is not. (Unless she is lurking and speaks through Sukin. That would be quite a revelation!;);) Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Phil, > Op 22-sep-2010, om 9:15 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > > > For example Nina is one of the world's leading experts on > > Abhidhamma and has written many respected books in the field, and > > here she is spending time to help us understand Dhamma better! > ----- > N: A correction is fitting here. Who am I? Whatever I learnt, it > comes form Acharn Sujin. She is the expert in Abhidhamma. She > explains so well that all realities taught in the Abhidhamma are real > life. I try to apply this lesson as best as I can, but of course I > have my limitations. > > Nina. > > > > > #110182 From: "philip" Date: Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:56 pm Subject: Re: Who am I? philofillet Hi Ari > You can't leave now, Phil, I wanted to find out the stuff about TNH and consumption! Well, it's just like I was saying, that we are always consuming through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body sense and mind sense, and sometimes there is wise consumption where there is attention to what is being and consumed and possibly wisdom that reminds us of the ultimately impermanent, impersonal and non-satisfactory nature of it, and sometimes there is mindless devouring, that's all he was saying, I think. So if someone does something bad to us, and rather than wisely taking it as vipaka (the results of our past kamma) we dwell on it and keep consuming it again and again there will be nothing but crappy feelings (i.e preventable depression) arising from it. Same goes for all kinds of other sensory consumption. For example, if I look at pornography one day, it is very predictable and guaranteed that I will feel crappy later, that's the way it works, for me at least. That kind of prentable depression TNH was referring to isn't of course the clinical depression that you are dealing with, that's a tougher opponent, as you know. But we can do a lot to be happier and less remoreseful by watching what we eat through the six senses. Meditation is like a training in that, I think. OK, sorry Ari, but I really am out of here! Have a great time in Hawaii. Maybe it would be a good opportunity to look at the way we consume pleasant objects. Every summer I go to an area of Quebec that has to be one of the most beautiful on earth and stay in a beautiful house, and for three weeks it seems that there are pleasant sense objects from morning to night. I try to reflect that it is good kamma that has brought me into this situation and if I can continue to consume wisely, further conditions will be created for more good vipaka. Of course the purpose of Buddhism is not to create more and more pleasant vipaka, the purpose is to get out of the cycle of samsara, but we are where we are and having attachment to wholesome, non-harmful forms of pleasure seems sensible. Metta, Phil #110183 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:24 am Subject: Re: Similes of the five khandhas. glenjohnann Dear Nina Thank you so much for doing this - the similes for the Khandas. I have been drawn to the one about Sanna - that deceives many people (immediately below)by being the cause of wrong view, of seeing things as beautiful, happiness, permanent and self. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >> > Sa??aa is like a mirage, since it is unsubstantial and cannot be > grasped. One cannot grasp it, drink it, wash in it, bathe in it or > fill a pot with it. A mirage quivers and deceives many people. > The Dispeller of Delusion adds that it makes people say that they saw > a full lake or a full river. > Sa??aa deceives the world by being a cause of wrong view, of seeing > things as beautiful, happiness, permanent and self. > I generally think of Sanna as "memory". I know that it is also sometimes called "perception". This simile has once again caused me to wonder about the nature of Sanna. If it is memory, then I expect that it is memory in a way that is different from what we generally think of as being memory. Same with perception. I also recall it being said that Sanna "marks" an object, which has made more sense to me. I recall a conversation with A. Sujin a few years back where she spoke of Sanna and Nimitta. I wish that I could remember the full conversation (over lunch), however, in the absence of either a full or accurate recollection - I am going to say that I think she spoke about sanna remembering an object and that what we remember (in the conventional sense) is only a nimitta of sanna (I could be wrong here). In any case, I find myself wondering more about the nature of sanna and its relationship to Nimimtta. Can you say more about this? In the meantime, if I can recall more about that conversation I will let you know. I have never quite understood about memory and perception both being used to describe the function of sanna. And Nimitta, what I understand to be like an image is difficult too. Ann #110184 From: "bhikkhu3" Date: Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:52 pm Subject: Morality is the Seed of Good! bhikkhu5 Friends The Noble 8-fold Way grow out of Morality! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, even as any seed and plant grows, increases, & expands, based upon the earth, established upon earth, so too, similarly here, based upon morality, established upon morality, do any Bhikkhu develop and cultivate the Noble 8-fold Way, and thereby he attains to growth, to increase, to expansion in all advantageous states. And how does a Bhikkhu do so? Here, the Bhikkhu develops: Right View , Right Motivation, Right Speech , Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort , Right Awareness, and Right Concentration, all based upon seclusion, disillusion, ceasing, and culminating in release. It is in this way, that a Bhikkhu, based on morality, established upon morality, develops and cultivates this Noble 8-fold Way, and thereby he attains to growth, to increase, and to expansion in and of any advantageous mental state! <..> Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V:46-7] section 45: The Way. 100: Seeds ... http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * <...> #110185 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:05 am Subject: Re: dry insight. truth_aerator Hello KenH, RobertE, Howard, all, >KH:It would help if you were to specify which point you were >referring >to and explain why it was a good one, worth >investigating. > >Alex said that the 8fold path was required for awakening. But he >didn't say what the 8fold path was. The one described in the suttas. >Is it is a path in the *conventional* sense that people can walk, or >otherwise progress, along. The one described in the suttas. >Or is it (as I understand it to be) a conditioned dhamma, beyond >anyone's control? Of course it is fully conditioned. Being fully conditioned doesn't change the fact that certain events do occur. The suttas and VsM didn't teach inaction, and waiting for awakening to just occur. > > He said the four jhanas were part of the path, but he didn't >explain what he meant by that. Did he mean Right Concentration was >the four jahnas arising together in a single citta? Right. There is only one citta happening at a time. During Jhana, there are lots of jhanacittas happening one after another. >Does he realise that the mundane (samatha) jhanas take a concept - >not a conditioned dhamma, and not nibbana - as their object? For 10000th time I say this. One uses Jhana to focus on anicca, dukkha and anatta of 4 satipatthanas. Jhana is not separate path from vipassana. > He also mentioned the "eleven gateways for liberation" and I believe he was saying every ariyan became liberated via one of those gateways - so there could be no dry insight (despite textual >assertions to the contrary)! There isn't sutta evidence to the contrary, and it cannot be. N8P not N7P is required for awakening 8th Factor of N8P includes samma-samadhi Samma-Samadhi includes Jhana. Therefore Jhana is required. Period. With metta, Alex #110186 From: "philip" Date: Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:12 am Subject: Re: Who am I? philofillet Hi again, Ari. Before I go here is something more substantial on the Buddhist teaching on nutriments - not just food, but all we experience and proliferate on as well. "You are what you eat" gains a new meaning. Metta, Phil http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel105.html --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Ari > > > You can't leave now, Phil, I wanted to find out the stuff about TNH and consumption! > #110187 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:20 am Subject: Awareness and thinking. 2. nilovg Dear friends, A quote from Rob K's web, a discussion with Kh Sujin: ------ Nina. #110188 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:12 am Subject: [dsg] Re: dry insight. kenhowardau Hi Howard, ----- KH: >> Is it is a path in the *conventional* sense that people can walk, or otherwise progress, along. Or is it (as I understand it to be) a conditioned dhamma, beyond anyone's control? >> H: Ken, when you read (past-tense) what Alex and Robert wrote and you thought it over and decided to write what you just wrote and actually sat down and wrote it, lots of events occurred, all of which were namas and rupas arising and ceasing, and not even one of which involved some "actual Ken-self doing anything," ----- That sounds similar to what I have been saying. But, as you know, there is a big difference. You and I disagree on just about every issue ever raised at DSG, so there must be a big difference in what we are saying. ---------------- H: > All this did happen, and it involved a great deal of thinking, planning, intention, and effort. ---------------- That is a good example of how we disagree. Namas and rupas arise and cease *by conditions*. No effort makes them do so. No effort prevents them from doing so. ---------------------------- H: > Likewise, when "people study what the Buddha taught and put it into action," the situation is the same: namas and rupas arising and ceasing, not involving any "people realities," but definitely involving a great deal of thinking, planning, intention, and effort. ---------------------------- The Buddha taught the way things are. There is no putting that "into action" is there? (There is no putting into action the way things are.) ----------------- H: > Talk of namas and rupas does not destroy the world of conventional activities ----------------- There is no such world to begin with. ----------------------- H: > but reveals what actually occurs that is *taken* to be everyday, commonsense events. ------------------------ I agree there is something that "actually occurs" but it is a momentary thing. It is not a "stream" of things, and it is not a "web" of things. It is a single-momentary thing. ----------------------- H: > Nama-and-rupa talk *explains*. It does not say that what happens does not happen. People do live and work and play and write email posts and live and die (as we say) - only it is not what it seems to be. ----------------------- No, there are no people and there are no things that people do. There are only momentary dhammas performing momentary functions. --------------------------- H: > (Actually, I believe this is so with respect to those "things" called "paramattha dhammas" as well, but that is a further step of understanding that we should put on the back-burner, as we don't even directly grasp the first step yet. --------------------------- The first step is right understanding of paramattha dhammas. The realisation "there is no self" flows from that. Ken H #110189 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness and thinking. 2. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Robert) - In a message dated 9/23/2010 3:56:57 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear friends, A quote from Rob K's web, a discussion with Kh Sujin: ------ Nina. ================================ I rather like what Khun Sujin teaches here (the use of "realities" notwithstanding). What is actually experienced counts, not the Pali names, as KS says. Also, the quality of seeing (and sight) is clearly different from that of, for example, hearing and (heard) sound. We can and do distinguish these, and smearing it all together is just nonsense. What is not clear to me in this quoted material the last few sentences: "Some people wonder about musical sounds played simultaneously as different kinds of musical sounds, but if the citta were not able to distinguish among the sounds, we would not be able to know there were differences. Because of ignorance we wonder whether it were simultaneous or what sound that is. This is a matter of thinking and of ignorance." What exactly is being asserted here about the sounds? It seems to me that while listening to music, at any point in time there is exactly one object of hearing, and it is only through perceptual (and conceptual) processing that an *analysis* into several,more elementary, sounds is made. Moreover, it seems to me that what that analysis reveals is reality, and not fiction -reality that would not be known were it not for the analytical operations. I would also add that the relationships among instances of sound during the time of playing, which make the sounds into melody and not just isolated sounds at different times also constitute a fact that would be unknown were it not for a perceptual (and conceptual) *synthesis* of experience over a period of time that is carried out. So, the process of coming to know the musical reality is a complex one dependent in part on analytic and in part on synthetic mental operations. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #110190 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dry insight. upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 9/23/2010 7:41:59 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, ----- KH: >> Is it is a path in the *conventional* sense that people can walk, or otherwise progress, along. Or is it (as I understand it to be) a conditioned dhamma, beyond anyone's control? >> H: Ken, when you read (past-tense) what Alex and Robert wrote and you thought it over and decided to write what you just wrote and actually sat down and wrote it, lots of events occurred, all of which were namas and rupas arising and ceasing, and not even one of which involved some "actual Ken-self doing anything," ----- That sounds similar to what I have been saying. But, as you know, there is a big difference. You and I disagree on just about every issue ever raised at DSG, so there must be a big difference in what we are saying. ---------------- H: > All this did happen, and it involved a great deal of thinking, planning, intention, and effort. ---------------- That is a good example of how we disagree. Namas and rupas arise and cease *by conditions*. No effort makes them do so. No effort prevents them from doing so. ------------------------------------------------ Effort is a cetasika. ------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------- H: > Likewise, when "people study what the Buddha taught and put it into action," the situation is the same: namas and rupas arising and ceasing, not involving any "people realities," but definitely involving a great deal of thinking, planning, intention, and effort. ---------------------------- The Buddha taught the way things are. There is no putting that "into action" is there? (There is no putting into action the way things are.) ----------------- H: > Talk of namas and rupas does not destroy the world of conventional activities ----------------- There is no such world to begin with. ----------------------- H: > but reveals what actually occurs that is *taken* to be everyday, commonsense events. ------------------------ I agree there is something that "actually occurs" but it is a momentary thing. ------------------------------------------------- It is a trivial observation that at any moment there is only that moment! Not deep in the slightest, and not novel. ------------------------------------------------- It is not a "stream" of things, and it is not a "web" of things. It is a single-momentary thing. ------------------------------------------------- You entirely ignore relation. You ignore the subject-matter of "the great book" of Abhidhamma. ------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- H: > Nama-and-rupa talk *explains*. It does not say that what happens does not happen. People do live and work and play and write email posts and live and die (as we say) - only it is not what it seems to be. ----------------------- No, there are no people and there are no things that people do. There are only momentary dhammas performing momentary functions. -------------------------------------------------- You are intentionally wearing blinders. ---------------------------------------------------- --------------------------- H: > (Actually, I believe this is so with respect to those "things" called "paramattha dhammas" as well, but that is a further step of understanding that we should put on the back-burner, as we don't even directly grasp the first step yet. --------------------------- The first step is right understanding of paramattha dhammas. -------------------------------------------- Yes, I actually agree with you that this is the first step. --------------------------------------------- The realisation "there is no self" flows from that. Ken H ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #110191 From: "a_true_lotus" Date: Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:08 pm Subject: What is Emptiness? a_true_lotus Dear list, My friend has asked me what is emptiness. I only know the Heart Suttra which goes into emptiness, but does not really describe what emptiness is. Could someone explain emptiness? Or is that more of a Mahayana thing??? Best, Ari #110192 From: "a_true_lotus" Date: Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:41 pm Subject: Re: Who am I? a_true_lotus --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi again, Ari. Before I go here is something more substantial on the Buddhist teaching on nutriments - not just food, but all we experience and proliferate on as well. "You are what you eat" gains a new meaning. > > Metta, > > Phil > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel105.html Thanks, Phil. Printing it up and will read it later. Don't leave, Phil! I need you! :-) Well, I don't know your reason for leaving, and maybe it is a good one. Sometimes I also take "internet breaks" where I don't do any internet for a few days to a week. I'm getting ready to consume again! I have always drawn horses, as a kind of meditation. I use various mechanical pencils with various pencil leads. Well, the day before yesterday, I used pastels for the first time and had a good result. But now realize that I must buy other art supplies as the pastel set I got was a "beginner" set, the charcoals are too hard, and need softer ones, etc. I haven't been so excited since I was a child. It seems OK, consumption???? Really drawing is a form of meditation and I think is a part of at least Zen Buddhism, if not Thereveda. And if you want to use pastels, or softer charcoals, you have to go buy them and consume them! Anyway, if you are still reading this, I deeply appreciate the time you have taken to answer my posts. Your posts are full of insight. See you soon, I hope, Phil :-) Metta _/\_ Arianna #110193 From: "gazita2002" Date: Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:01 pm Subject: Re: Similes of the five khandhas. gazita2002 hallo Ann, You ask some good questions. >Ann: Dear Nina > > Thank you so much for doing this - the similes for the Khandas. > > I have been drawn to the one about Sanna - that deceives many people (immediately below)by being the cause of wrong view, of seeing things as beautiful, happiness, permanent and self. > >Nina: Sa??aa is like a mirage, since it is unsubstantial and cannot be > > grasped. One cannot grasp it, drink it, wash in it, bathe in it or > > fill a pot with it. A mirage quivers and deceives many people. > > The Dispeller of Delusion adds that it makes people say that they saw > > a full lake or a full river. > > Sa??aa deceives the world by being a cause of wrong view, of seeing > > things as beautiful, happiness, permanent and self. > > > > I generally think of Sanna as "memory". I know that it is also sometimes called "perception". This simile has once again caused me to wonder about the nature of Sanna. If it is memory, then I expect that it is memory in a way that is different from what we generally think of as being memory. Same with perception. I also recall it being said that Sanna "marks" an object, which has made more sense to me. Asita: as you probably already know, Sanna arises with every citta, including bhavanga citta. It marks every object of citta. So when visible object is seen by citta, sanna marks that and then following this sense door process, is a mind door process which has that visible object as its object, even tho the actual object has fallen away - this is then nimitta of that object. Now who knows how many mind door processes there are? - That particular visible object along with many others that were marked and rememberd by sanna, then becomes the 'big story' that we have about this world of 'color'. So you can imagine how the story gets bigger when added to this are all the others 'worlds' of taste, smell, sound, tactile items. The ocean of concepts!!!! BTW, I hope you & Glen are well. Patience courage and good cheer azita > > I recall a conversation with A. Sujin a few years back where she spoke of Sanna and Nimitta. I wish that I could remember the full conversation (over lunch), however, in the absence of either a full or accurate recollection - I am going to say that I think she spoke about sanna remembering an object and that what we remember (in the conventional sense) is only a nimitta of sanna (I could be wrong here). > > In any case, I find myself wondering more about the nature of sanna and its relationship to Nimimtta. Can you say more about this? > In the meantime, if I can recall more about that conversation I will let you know. I have never quite understood about memory and perception both being used to describe the function of sanna. And Nimitta, what I understand to be like an image is difficult too. > > Ann > #110194 From: "gazita2002" Date: Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:21 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best? gazita2002 hallo Rob > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > > > Hallo Nina and RobE > > Rob, I think Nina has made a good point by her comment on accumulations. I think we have to be really honest with ourselves and therefore know at least to some degree, our accumulations. > > > > I guess I just want to emphasise the importance of knowing the present moment as it arises - no need to go looking for jhana, or trying to have jhana cittas; the cittas that arise now have objects that can be known, why not start right now by being aware of whatever object appears > Rob: That is always a good idea, and is the basic life-practice from moment to moment. It is also the practice of "dry insight" without the jhanas. Starting from there and even continuing from there, is great. But then that does not rule out jhana if one has the potential for it. > > So how would you know if you are meant to do jhana, dry insight, or just straight pariyati with dhamma? Well, I don't think you'll have a desire for jhana unless your accumulations are resonating with it in some way, so if you feel like investigating it, it probably means something is up. azita: not sure what you mean by straight pariyati - but have on the occasion wondered the same thing, how would I know if I were meant to do jhana - as you put it. That really then becomes jst a bunch of thinking dont you think? I mean what do we 'want' from the dhamma, liberation from all kileasa or some pleasant abidings for a few aeons:) Our current everyday life has enuff realities to 'get to know' and I feel confident that if I had accumulations for jhana, then I wouldnt be living the way I am, I wouldnt be a householder. > > If there is only one possibility and conditions and accumulations will work like clockwork to cause jhana to arise, or to start you noticing what's arising in the moment, then that is one thing. I don't think it's that predetermined, although it still will all be caused by conditions, accumulations and whatever arises in the moment. > > But to know the difference between one path and another is also part of understanding in my view. azita: Yeees, I think this might be right, its a part of intellectual understanding - isnt it? > > All of it takes place in the present moment, whatever takes place, and that is worth knowing too. azita: IMHO that is the best knowing!!! patience, courage and good cheer, azita azita #110195 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:22 pm Subject: Re: An afternoon with Pt - round 3 epsteinrob Hi pt. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi RobE, KenO, all, > > A few things relevant to our discussions that I was able to discuss with Sarah and Jon last weekend. > > 2. Regarding right intellectual understanding which takes concepts as the object of cittas - Jon pointed out that this is not academic knowledge as such. As I understood him, right intellectual understanding actually has to do with relating the present experience to anatta. The more there's such understanding, the closer it gets to actual insight proper. However, I would guess that as long as the object of that understanding is still a concept, and has not yet been applied to a dhamma, it is not yet and never will be insight proper... I can see it sowing the seeds for insight proper however. Perhaps that is what is meant...? > 3. I've also asked about not being certain whether what I'm experiencing at the moment is a particular kind of dhamma or another - for example, when touching something, I'm not really sure whether I'm actually experiencing hardness (rupa) or is it a perception (of hardness - nama). Sarah pointed out that most likely in these cases the reality/dhamma at that moment is probably thinking and doubt. So, I think for beginners doubt is probably the most accessible dhamma :) Of course, whatever arises at present - even if it's doubt, can be understood in light of anatta. And I guess that would then be an instance of right intellectual understanding. When one has an intellectual object such as "doubt," is that not also an example of a concept? I would think that the only mental objects that would not be concepts would be actual namas. What are namas that can be objects of citta? I find this a bit confusing. How does one perceive them directly? I guess if hardness were being perceived and one was aware of the perception of hardness, then the perception of hardness would be a nama. Are there types of thinking that are also legitimate namas -- not about concepts -- and that can be dhammas for citta? Can citta be the object of citta in the present moment? How would that work? Easier to understand how rupas arise for citta. > 5. And there was the topic of small talk, which is not really related to any present discussions here - the issue of how difficult I find it sometimes to engage in small talk with people, even though it's the only way to relate to them - i.e. talking about the weather, how's the family, etc. Sarah pointed out that even the Buddha engaged in "small talk" - I think in the suttas it's often described as the exchange of cordial greetings. So, it's not so much about what's being said - even if it's about the weather, or family - but the point is that it's about the citta - for example if it's said with metta, that would be kusala, while if it's done reluctantly - then it's probably with akusala cittas. Same deal as with effort, concentration, etc. Nice point. I guess there can be "small talk" that is uplifting and an act of friendship or caring [metta, etc.] as opposed to small talk that is just avoiding a more "real" conversation. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #110196 From: "lawstu_uk" Date: Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:40 pm Subject: Metta as purely meditation purpose VS dana without metta? lawstu_uk Dear all, I have recently visited this website that Bhikkhu Bodhi is organising a walk for those suffering from hunger... (Unfortunately, in my humble opinion, for a week it has only attracted 45 people to support such a knowledgeable and kind Bhikkhu) http://www.firstgiving.com/bhikkhubodhi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q4esl0tTak&feature=related (B. Bodhi's talks are very touching.. especially when he talked about what breaks his heart) My reaction when initially read this news, I immediately felt the need to support such a good cause by a monastic member following the vinaya and studying the suttas. Then, the thought of those children, died of hunger, made me sad. This reminds me of the article on metta by Khun Sujin. I then understand, the sadness I felt, was no longer metta but an unwholesome mental state. Am I right? I would really appreciate it if anyone can share your opinions. The second question is a dilemma. I have been pondering if metta bhavana is restricted to the cushion? By this I mean I only repeat words 'May I be free from physical and mental sufferings' when I am 'doing' metta meditation. In daily life, I can develop generous act based on loving kindness. Yet I can also only 'send' good wishes eg 'May you be free from hunger' without doing any act of generosity.. Or even worse, I could be thinking 'YOUR hunger is your kamma and you're the owner of your kamma'. Volitional formations can be expressed in terms of body, speech and mind. But what is it that some can practise acts of generosity yet some cannot? And what is it that propel the thought of metta to the act of metta? Many thanks in advance. Andrew #110197 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:29 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: what I heard. Was: An afternoon with Pt. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > right now. It is not the number of cittas and cetasikas.... > It is not self, it is conditioned. It cannot appear if it has not > arisen. Since it is real pa~n~naa can penetrate the way it is, not a > 'thing'. > How can there be the understanding of anything without pariyatti. It > does not hurt to know that this moment is not self. ... Do not expect > anything from it, just know it and understand it. That is the way to > penetrate the true nature of reality right now. It can be done when > time comes, it depends on the understanding which is accumulated from > moment to moment. ... How is pariyatti - clear intellectual understanding of the nature of dhammas - converted into direct seeing? Does the accumulation of pariyatti create a condition for direct seeing at a later time? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #110198 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:43 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best? epsteinrob Hi Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > hallo Rob > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > > > > > Hallo Nina and RobE > > > > Rob, I think Nina has made a good point by her comment on accumulations. I think we have to be really honest with ourselves and therefore know at least to some degree, our accumulations. > > > > > > I guess I just want to emphasise the importance of knowing the present moment as it arises - no need to go looking for jhana, or trying to have jhana cittas; the cittas that arise now have objects that can be known, why not start right now by being aware of whatever object appears > > > Rob: That is always a good idea, and is the basic life-practice from moment to moment. It is also the practice of "dry insight" without the jhanas. Starting from there and even continuing from there, is great. But then that does not rule out jhana if one has the potential for it. > > > > So how would you know if you are meant to do jhana, dry insight, or just straight pariyati with dhamma? Well, I don't think you'll have a desire for jhana unless your accumulations are resonating with it in some way, so if you feel like investigating it, it probably means something is up. > > azita: not sure what you mean by straight pariyati - but have on the occasion wondered the same thing, how would I know if I were meant to do jhana - as you put it. That really then becomes just a bunch of thinking dont you think? I mean what do we 'want' from the dhamma, liberation from all kileasa or some pleasant abidings for a few aeons:) > Our current everyday life has enuff realities to 'get to know' and I feel confident that if I had accumulations for jhana, then I wouldnt be living the way I am, I wouldnt be a householder. Of course, people, conventionally speaking, go through all sorts of realizations and transitions - that too is part of life. You may be a householder and still come to a point in your life where you find yourself sitting on the floor in the garage and going into deep jhana. Who knows? I am kidding a little bit, but just a little. I had no interest in jhana most of my life, but a few years ago I suddenly read some sentence about it and became lit up like a Christmas tree. Who knows why that happened? Most likely some form of accumulations waiting to pounce at the right moment. I am not saying that you have to play intellectual guessing-games about whether you should be doing this or that. As you said there are "more than enough dhammas" -- in fact billions -- to keep you busy. All I am saying is that if jhana occurs to me, I shouldn't play intellectual games with that either. I can just allow what is arising to arise without creating proliferations of doubt and resistance, and see where it leads. I have not pushed the issue, or tried to force myself to do anything, but just allow it to be entertained. So what has it led to? Now I am obsessed with reading different versions of satipatthana sutta and anapanasati suttas, and interested in commentaries from Vis and elsewhere. A month ago I had little interest in the Vis - it just wasn't on my radar - now I'm suddenly very interested. So to me, it is all a sort of exciting adventure. When you realize there is no "self" to be in control, "you" can just sort of see what comes up and "go with it," so to speak. And new things keep developing. The latest development is that I "accidentally" came across extensive audio lectures of Bikkhu Bodhi's on those very same suttas, and they are GREAT. I may share some aspects of them here when I get the chance. Sometimes we can be so busy saying "there are only realities, there are only realities," that we can fail to notice all the interesting stuff that is happening now - including concepts, thoughts, lectures, exchanges like this one, discoveries of commentaries, that are leading our "mind" in a certain direction. Why not enjoy it? We don't have to be dhamma robots in order to engage right thinking. > > If there is only one possibility and conditions and accumulations will work like clockwork to cause jhana to arise, or to start you noticing what's arising in the moment, then that is one thing. I don't think it's that predetermined, although it still will all be caused by conditions, accumulations and whatever arises in the moment. > > > > But to know the difference between one path and another is also part of understanding in my view. > > azita: Yeees, I think this might be right, its a part of intellectual understanding - isnt it? That's what we have to guide us most of the time. The question is, whether it is useful intellectual understanding, or just "mental junk." The Abhidhamma and some commentaries I have come across here in the past talk about all these great mental qualities, the probing and turning over and investigating of an object. Of course that is most direct when directed towards dhammas, but that kind of probing and investigating must apply to concepts too so that we develop right intellectual understanding and allow good decisions and interests to arise. Pariyatti, which is the main mode of learning here, is also intellectual understanding, so it's nothing to sneeze at. :-) > > All of it takes place in the present moment, whatever takes place, and that is worth knowing too. > > azita: IMHO that is the best knowing!!! :-) Indeed! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #110199 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:07 pm Subject: Re: dry insight. epsteinrob Hi Alex. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > He also mentioned the "eleven gateways for liberation" and I believe he was saying every ariyan became liberated via one of those gateways - so there could be no dry insight (despite textual >assertions to the contrary)! > > There isn't sutta evidence to the contrary, and it cannot be. > > > N8P not N7P is required for awakening > 8th Factor of N8P includes samma-samadhi > Samma-Samadhi includes Jhana. > > Therefore Jhana is required. Period. Appreciate your stand on this, with clear sutta evidence. There are a number of teachers from other traditions that do support the idea of a "dry insight" path, and I wonder how they justify it? It has been described in some detail. You discussed with me I believe how the straight insight path was full of these rather horrible experiences, according to some vipassana masters - sensations of skin crawling, heat, etc., at different times. Can't find it right now, but it was an extensive program of expected experiences on the vipassana path - the various levels of insight. On this subject of dry insight vs. w/jhana, here is a page full of detailed stuff on Rob K's list, between Nina, Rob K. and some others: http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=298 So what do you think about the evidence for this alternate tradition? Another possibility is that pariyatti and dry insight develop understanding to a certain point, to be followed up with insight + jhana in a subsequent lifetime. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = =