#115400 From: "colette" Date: Tue May 31, 2011 4:03 pm Subject: Re: Anger Hi Howard, FASCINATING perspective. lol You ascribe to anger the MOTIVATION to strike outwardly. You mean TO TAKE ACTION, if I may. ACTION and MOTION are two behaviors that generate HEAT. Like bijas that are seeds, and once planted, are constantly GERMINATING, thus IN MOTION/ACTIVE, not STATIC or STAGNANT. With HEAT as a RESULTANT CONDITION then is it possible that the meditation techinque of POWA is considered? With the RESULTANT CONDITION OF HEAT being reality, a way to characterize and cognize the INTERNAL CONDITIONS OF AN INDIVIDUAL'S BODY, then isn't it more likely to be FRUITFUL to examine the conditions of HEAT and/or "OF FIRE"? FIRE consumes much like the condition of SLOTH which is a VERY ADDICTIVE CONDITION to have to contend with. This internal heat may be considered as RESULTANT FROM FIRE? What "feeds" the fire so that it can consume? Does the ALAYA-VIJNANA feed the fire so that ANGER has a place to exist or subsist? "Yelling, hitting, and revengeful action". The first two can be LABELED (Name & Form, the name manifests the form which the eye sees and cognizes, then RE-COGNIZES, mind being the "consciousness" which creates MANIFESTATION). Yelling and Hitting, two cute aspects of ANGER. Both Yelling and Hitting effect others. The people that KNOW, are conscious of, the results of Yelling and Hitting immediately say that yelling and hitting effect others NEGATIVELY, a causation of PAIN & SUFFERING. Revengful action is nothing more than a MIND MADE BEHAVIOR. Revenge REQUIRES PLANNING, PRE-MEDITATION ("vengence is mine sayeth the lord", for all those "creationists" out there). What is GOAL ORIENTATION? Is it possible that Anger is a result of having a person's GOAL ORIENTATION stopped? Do humans come out of their "incubator" already programmed with PRE-MEDITATION which is masked to appear as though a GOAL ORIENTATION? Isn't it more likely that humans are CONDITIONED to possess a GOAL ORIENTATION while they too are bamboozled, confounded, fooled, by the ILLUSION of MARA? It's not just the "others", external to the person but also the person themselves, who is IN DARKNESS concerning the NATURE of this alleged GOAL ORIENTATION and/or PRE-MEDITATION. One may even suggest that each individual is born clinging to the WHEEL OF SAMSARA as if they were this supposed MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE (see the movie MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE and the process of SUBLIMINAL SUGGESTIONING AS WELL AS HYPNOTISM) How does the Abhidharma differentiate ANGER from HATE? How does an average individual differentiate ANGER from HATE or HATE from ANGER? Are they, HATE and ANGER, the same? If not then how are they different? The girl blue pit bull that we have sleeps with me at night. She wakes me up, typically, around 3-4 a.m. to let her out to go to the bathroom. Sometimes, in the darkness of the basement that I live in, one of the three dogs leaves a "plop plop, fizz fizz" after relieving themselves in the basement and I happen to step in it as I walk in the darkness to the backdoor. I am angery knowing that my foot has been "baptized" by defication but is my anger HATE? Anybody that knows the me and the dogs knows that I do not like hitting them when the dogs do something that they should not do, that humans would not do. I always say how impossible it is for the dogs to know what we, as humans, are telling the dogs NOT TO DO and how impossible it is for the dogs to RESTRAIN their natural bodily functions and natural behaviors JUST BECAUSE MY ROOMMATES, allegedly human, dictate this to the dogs. I am willing to scold the dogs for WRONG BEHAVIOR but I know that they do not speak the same language that we humans speak so they could not possibly UNDERSTAND and KNOW. I immediately cognize that I HAVE ANGER but it just as immediately leaves my person since I know that FAULT is something that's pretty hard to define. Even when I'm laying on the bed or sitting in the chair next to my bed, the dogs get up on the bed and start "playing" and they use their teeth clearly. I immediately STOP THIS BEHAVIOR since "NO FIGHTING ON MY BED" (it's my own personal quirk that I believe that a RESIDUE exists from the "heightened" emotions that the dogs are experiencing and I do not want it in my bed when I'm meditating or sleeping) > It carries with it a great deal of energy directed towards inflicting > harm. By far, I consider it the worst of the emotional defilements. Naw, I think that ANGER is just part of MARA's illusiory practices so that HATE can be better glorified. Good thought though. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, all - > > I find anger to be an interesting defilement. It does seem to be a > form of aversion, but a form quite different from others. > Instead of anger being just a desire for the absence of something or > someone, or a "getting away from" something or someone, it seems to be more > of an energetic desire to strike out at something or someone. Just consider > how it is often expressed by yelling, by hitting, or by revengeful action. > It carries with it a great deal of energy directed towards inflicting > harm. By far, I consider it the worst of the emotional defilements. <...> #115401 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue May 31, 2011 10:33 pm Subject: Nâma-R"pa = The Core Duality! Friends: Reality is Moments of Mentality & Materiality! Nāma-R"pa = Name-and-Form, Naming-and-Forming! The mind is that, which knows the object! The object is that, which is known! These two processes always arise and cease together simultaneously... Neither inside, within, nor apart from, outside these two is any observer agent, person, I, Me, or other assumed entity as a hidden variable, ever involved! The mind is immaterial, formless and invisible. The object may be designated or named 'material', 'physical', 'formed' and even 'visible' only and exactly to the extent and in so far as it is experiencable by the mind! No same, constant, lasting 'real', 'actual' or 'substantial substance' has ever existed 'out there' independently or separable from the mind, that right then momentarily perceived and thereby apprehended, displayed, manifested and designated it! This core dual pair of mentality (nāma) and materiality (r"pa), is thus one united yet dual continuum, like the two ends of the same stick! They do never emerge, nor do they ever exist, nor can they ever be observed separately, in and of themselves, but they can only arise in mutual dependence, like two thin creepers can only arise & stand up if intertwined with each other. Mentality & materiality thus arise and cease simultaneously in each moment! They are thus the most basic, fundamental and primary pair on the bottom of the dynamic ever-changing process of any being in any existence... What is called 'matter' is delimited, defined, characterized, conceptualized, compartmentalized and even named by mind! Therefore can matter never be separated from mind, like if one tries to break the dual-ended stick in order to separate the ends, then one always gets two sticks, still each with 2 ends! Therefore one unambiguously always ends up with observing a pair-wise new event of mentality & materiality! The basic founding, yet often unnoticed, unspoken and maybe even sometimes actively denied assumption underlying all Western science that: The naked, inert, objective observation is possible! 'Matter can be observed and analyzed objectively, independently of mind!' is therefore utterly false, futile and even somewhat childish... No observation can ever be independent of mind! Why not? What is observing IS the mind! The naive physicist who postulates: 'Independently of Mind, "I!" will observe, describe and evaluate matter!' extending out of his range of understanding, thus speaks folly false and is thereby later ultimately enforced to introduce 'mysti-phystical' entities as 'hidden variables' into his explanations, in order to reach completeness, coherence and internal consistence... He seems to be in complete oblivion of the dry fact, that even before one even thinks of, even speaks of, or experiment with any 'matter', mind have indeed been long and hard at work! The basic hidden, yet always present, factor in any observation, is naturally mind itself! However, this factor is not so hidden, that it cannot be observed & analyzed and that even without any laboratory or even a single 'instrument' apart from a pillow to sit on! Everyone, without even a single exception, who sits down with closed eyes, will instantly be overwhelmed by a veritable storm of mentally created distractions: This is the Mind! This is mental activity knocking your door... Undeniably real! When this dynamic self-sustaining duality of mentality-materiality, this self- sustaining perpetum mobile, cease to evolve, consciousness thereby ceases to establish itself on an object! This - only this, in and of itself - is the very final End of all Suffering... <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita _/\_ * <...> #115402 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jun 1, 2011 4:18 am Subject: Do we create the world just by observing it? A friend asked this good question: >Bhante does physical matter actually exist, when not observed by the mind? Answer: ‘Matter’ can only be perceived by mind. Matter without mind involved is thus a dogmatic belief, an idea, an incomplete & unverifiable view philosophically called Naïve realism, Materialism or simple Physicalism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wi ki/Naive_realism http://en.wikipedia.org/wi ki/Materialism http://en.wikipedia.org/wi ki/Physicalism However the Buddhist knows that the physical world 'out there' is only an internal mental representation! The Buddha thus said: "This World both Begins and Ends within this 2 fathom frame of bones..." SN I 62 "The ALL is thereby actually just a sensed & experienced representation..." SN IV 15 "When consciousness stops then solidity, fluidity, heat and motion also ceases without trace..." It does therefore not give any rational meaning to speak of a world not observed by mind, since any 'real=empirical=not hypothetical world' has to be verified by the observing mind! When we speak about a 'material world', what really is present and real, right there and then, is a duality of a mental mind observing a physical object. That is: Consciousness & it’s object! These two = mind-matter = nama-rupa are utterly inseparable...! http://what-buddha-said.ne t/drops/Out_in.htm http://what-buddha-said.ne t/drops/V/The_Fact_of_No-Self_Anatta.htm Interestingly is this fact supported by orthodox contemporary Quantum-Mechanics which rejects the principle of a “local reality” ‘out there’ independent of observation: <...> American physics grand old man John Archibald Wheeler said: "No phenomenon is a phenomenon, until it is an Observed Phenomenon...!" "We are participators in bringing into being, not only the near, but also the far away both in time and space! Symbolic representation of the Universe is a self-excited system brought into being by self-reference or auto-creation by consciously selecting observers over an immensely long period of time... Such a recursive-reflecting creative concept is similar to the endless series of receding reflections one sees in a pair of mirrors facing each others....” Reference: J.A. Wheeler in Isham et al., eds., Quantum Gravity (Clarendon, Oxford, 1975), pgs. 564-565. (Edited Extract.) "The path of the electron comes into existence, only when we observe it." John S. Bell “Observations not only disturb, what has to be measured, they produce it! We compel [the electron] to assume a definite position! We - ourselves - produce the results of the measurements.” Pascual Jordan quoted by in: Max Jammer: The Philosophy of Quantum Mechanics, Wiley, 1974 p. 161. "Fundamental to contemporary Quantum Theory is the notion that there is no phenomenon until it is observed! This is known as the 'Observer Effect'. The implications of the 'Observer Effect' are profound because, if true, it means that before anything can manifest in the physical universe it must first be observed! This Observer Effect clearly implies that all the physical Universe is the direct result of consciousness itself!" Alex Paterson. Further ramifications of no mind-observer-independent reality: Do Physicists bid farewell to reality? http://www.nature.com/news/2007/070416/full/news070416-9.html <....> Front Cover Henry P. Stapp Springer, 2009 - Science - 300 pages "Scientists other than quantum physicists often fail to comprehend the enormity of the conceptual change wrought by quantum theory in our basic conception of the nature of matter," writes Henry Stapp. Stapp is a leading quantum physicist who has given particularly careful thought to the implications of the theory that lies at the heart of modern physics. In this book, which contains several of his key papers as well as new material, he focuses on the problem of consciousness and explains how quantum mechanics allows causally effective conscious thought to be combined in a natural way with the physical brain made of neurons and atoms. The book is divided into four sections. The first consists of an extended introduction. Key foundational and somewhat more technical papers are included in the second part, together with a clear exposition of the "orthodox" interpretation of quantum mechanics. The third part addresses, in a non-technical fashion, the implications of the theory for some of the most profound questions that mankind has contemplated: How does the world come to be just what it is and not something else? How should humans view themselves in a quantum universe? What will be the impact on society of the revised scientific image of the nature of man? The final part contains a mathematical appendix for the specialist and a glossary of important terms and ideas for the interested layman. + <...> The classical mechanistic idea of nature that prevailed in science during the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries was an essentially mindless conception: the physically described aspects of nature were asserted to be completely determined by prior physically described aspects alone, with our conscious experiences entering only passively. During the twentieth century the classical concepts were found to be inadequate. In the new theory, quantum mechanics, our conscious experiences enter into the dynamics in specified ways not fixed by the physically described aspects alone. Consequences of this radical change in our understanding of the connection between mind and brain are described. Have a nice, noble and thoughtful day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita _/\_ * <....> #115403 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 1, 2011 6:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna- Bon-sin-san Dear Dieter, Shalini & Han, --- On Sat, 28/5/11, Dieter Moeller wrote: >Han may provide more details, esp. the literal translation.. useful perhaps following footnote from 'Requisites..' Ven.L.S. : http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/uni/u-37bd/37bd-e03.htm >[7] Bon-sin-san is a term in the Burmese language, signifying a type of Stream-Winner (sotpanna) that will reach final deliverance in Arahatship after numerous rebirths in successively higher stages of existences. ... S: Many thx for your assistance, Dieter & Han. In short, "Bon-sin-san" is a Burmese term referring to sotapannas. Shalini's original question was: "Abhidhammata Sangaha commentary mentions about "cula sotapanna" and Ledi Sayadaw's 'Requisites of Enlightenment' mentions "bon-sin-san" Sotapanna. Both of which I am not really able to understand of how this is achieved, what are its characteristics similar to what is mentioned about the Magga phala for a Sotapanna and the characteristics like 'a Sotapanna is free of the first three fetters among ten'. Has anybody read of these in any other commentaries and understood more about this? " S: So in summary, from the discussions, a cula-sotapanna refers to the 2nd stage of insight, the "lesser sotapanna". The "Bon-sin-san" on the other hand is a non-Pali expression referring in Burmese to a sotapanna. It is the sotapatti-magga citta (at the moment of enlightenment) that the first three fetters are eradicated. This citta is followed by the phala cittas (fruition consciousness) of the sotapanna. I hope it's all cleared up now, Shalini. Metta Sarah ====== #115404 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jun 1, 2011 7:03 am Subject: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna Dear Vince, When I replied before, I sent of my message before I had finished replying to the end of your message here: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > I don't know if there is a possibility of a constant succesion of > sotapatti-magga cittas ... S: No, only one sotapatti-magga citta ever... ... >but I cannot conceive how such situation would not evolve > by itself until nibbana and arhanthood in a quick way. .... S: Just different accumulations, different conditions as to whether this happens quickly or not. Remember the sutta about the 4 different kinds of path, referring to quick and slow, easy and difficult as discussed before? Ah yes, as quoted by Nina here: #19973 >N:Anguttara Nikaya, Catukka-nipata, No. 167. It relates that once the Venerable Maha Moggallana went to see the Elder and said to him: "There are four ways of progress, brother Sariputta: difficult progress, with sluggish direct-knowledge; difficult progress, with swift direct-knowledge; easy progress, with sluggish direct-knowledge; easy progress, with direct-knowledge. The explanation of this passage is that if the suppression of the defilements preparatory to absorption or insight takes place without great difficulty, progress is called "easy" (sukha-patipada); in the reverse case it is "difficult" or "painful" (dukkha-patipada). If, after the suppression of the defilements, the manifestation of the Path, the goal of insight, is quickly effected, the direct-knowledge (connected with the Path) is called "swift" (khippabhia); in the reverse case it is "sluggish" (dandabhia). In this discourse the Venerable Sariputta's statement refers to his attainment of Arahantship. His attainment of the first three Paths, however, was, according to the commentary to the above text, connected with "easy progress and sluggish direct-knowledge." >Nina: I looked up the Co, and indeed, for Sariputta it was as above, and for the attainment of arahatship: easy and swift. For Moggalana, the three maggas easy and sluggish and for arahatship: painful and fast realization. But why should this apply to us now? These texts pertain to Sariputta and Moggalana, and to the attainments of the four Paths. I do not think with regard to myself of painful suppression of defilements right now. We are slow, slow slow anyway. .... > I understand the sotapatti-magga citta can arises in sotapannas but it is not not an established situation. .... S: As mentioned, this only ever arises once on becoming a sotapanna. You may be thinking of the phala citta (fruition consciousness) which may arise later if jhanas were attained just prior to enlightenment. ... >When sotapannas experience attachment there is no > place for that citta, and it would be the common situation, not the inverse. ... S: Of course. Attachment arises for all but the arahat. When attachment arises, no wholesome cittas or cetasikas (let alone jhana or lokuttara cittas) arise. Hope this clarifies. Metta Sarah ====== #115405 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jun 1, 2011 7:19 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Enlightenment from the light side Hi Howard, You wrote to Lukas: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ------------------------------------------------------- > Lukas, your "nature," as that of all sankaras and aggregates of > sankharas, is conditioned, transitory, and modifiable.<...> ... S: In what way are sankharas or khandhas "modifiable", I wonder? From a recent message of Ven Samahita's #115285: "Q: Is the body and all external form, lasting or transient? A: Transient Q: Is feeling, pleasant or not, lasting or transient? A: Transient! Q: Is experienced perceptions lasting or transient? A: Transient! Q: Is the mental constructions lasting or transient? A: Transient! Q: Is naked awareness = consciousness lasting or transient? A: Transient! Q: Is the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind, lasting or transient? Q: Is form, sound, smell, taste, touch and thought, lasting or transient? Q: Is solidity, fluidity, heat, motion, and space, lasting or transient? Answer: All these are Transient!, Impermanent!, Temporary!, Fleeting! Q: Is what is transient, happiness or suffering? A: Decay is Suffering! Q: Is what is transient, ever changing and therefore frustrating pain suitable to be regarded as: "This is Mine, This I Am, This is Me" "This I can Keep, This I can control, This I Posses, This is my Self" ...??? Answer: No certainly Not ...!!!, since what is self must be keepable, same, constant, controllable, under one's own full power, and thus pleasant... As all these phenomena are none of this, they cannot ever be self!" <...> Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaaya II 244-5 ... Sarah: Isn't the whole message about how the khandhas, the conditioned dhammas, as enumerated above, "conditioned, transitory and NON-modifiable", not under the control of any self? Of course, I appreciate your point that this doesn't mean liberation is not possible, that understanding cannot develop. This is why in the sutta above, the Buddha went on to say: "Seeing this [S: that khandhas are not controllable etc because they are not in the power of a self], understanding this, comprehending this, the Noble Learner is disgusted by all form, disgusted by all sensing, by all physical, by all mental. Being thus disgusted, one experiences an opening disillusion....The veil is off. Without illusions, the mind is fully released and one immediately knows: This mental liberation is final and irreversible. This -exactly this state is called Nibbaana." Metta Sarah ===== #115406 From: han tun Date: Wed Jun 1, 2011 7:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna- Bon-sin-san Online Now Send IM Dear Sarah, Dieter, & Shalini, Just one small addition. The literal meaning of Bon-sin-san. Bon comes from the Pali word bhuumi, the realm. Sin (Burmese word) = sequentially one after the other. San (Burmese word) = to abide, to enjoy. That is how [Note 7] in Ledi Sayadaw's Bodhipakkhiya Dipanii comes to be: "Beings who are bound to attain higher and higher stages of sanctity." And also Sarah's remark: "The "Bon-sin-san" on the other hand is a non-Pali expression referring in Burmese to a sotaapanna." Kind regards, Han --- On Wed, 6/1/11, sarah abbott wrote: Dear Dieter, Shalini & Han, >[7] Bon-sin-san is a term in the Burmese language, signifying a type of Stream-Winner (sotpanna) that will reach final deliverance in Arahatship after numerous rebirths in successively higher stages of existences. ... #115407 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 1, 2011 7:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing Hi Rob E, We were discussing the ti-lakkhana of dhammas and you kindly wrote: --- On Thu, 26/5/11, Robert E wrote: >R:I found all of these quotes and your discussion of them extremely interesting and helpful. Sometimes the detailed quotes answer these questions very well because they discuss in detail the way in which the quality of anatta or one of the other characteristics is really understood 'by the wise.' On the other hand, they also raise more questions... ... S: Many thx for your comments and I agree about the "more questions" that the details raise... ... >>S: "When continuity is disrupted means when continuity is exposed by observation of the perpetual alteration of states as they go on occurring in succession. For it is not through the connectedness of states, that the characteristic of impermanence becomes apparent to one who rightly observes rise and fall, but rather the transience characteristic becomes properly evident through these states discrete disconnectedness, regarded as if each moment were iron darts hitting the screen of awareness. Or as single pearls on a string, but not continuous as the string itself..." > VismA. 824 ... R:>I do have some questions about this description, and I like the metaphor very much. >It seems to me that one must be cognisant not only of the nature of the beads, but also of the existence of what would represent the string. In other words, the individual nature of dhammas always seems to be emphasized, and the fact that they completely arise and fall away, as if they were independent, as beads would be if they were *not* on a string, but just jumping up and down in the air, ie, rising and then falling all by themselves, each one. But in fact it is acknowledged that each citta passes on its characteristics and qualities and knowledge to the next citta as it falls away, and so in fact there *is* a continuity between arising and falling dhammas. .... S: There is a continuity as you suggest - each citta conditions the next one by anantara paccaya, for example. However, the path is about the direct understanding of what is experienced. At any one instant, there is only ever one citta arising and falling away. The understanding of the impermanence of dhammas is not the understanding of an imaginary string or idea of continuity or ever-changing phenemona, but the direct understanding of the impermanence of the citta, cetasika or rupa appearing now. The continuity of dhammas, the fact that dhammas continue on in succession is what leads our ignorance and wrong view to assume that there is some lastingness, some permanence. ... >R:I do not quite understand why there is the polarized view that change should be seen as complete dissolution of each dhamma and thereby a process of complete destruction rather than seeing change as both falling away *and* the continuity of all that is passed on at each moment when the dhamma is falling away. It seems to me that change or anicca is *both* the rising/falling away action *and* the passing on/continuity aspect of what continues to go on from citta to citta. So to me it seems logical that both should be equally understood as aspects of anicca and not just the falling away. ... S: It is because "a process of complete destruction" is the nature of each (conditioned) dhamma that it is dukkha and completely beyond the control of anyone or thing to make it otherwise. Now, if we are talking about cittas, it is true that whilst in samsara, each citta conditions the next one, birth after birth until ignorance is eradicated. This is according to conditions and doesn't affect the nature of anicca of those dhammas. Again, it is the illusion of lastingness or permanence of dhammas that gives rise to ideas of dhammas as sukkha. You were discussing the middle way with Ken H before and ideas of eternalism and anihilationism. Until wrong view has been eradicated, there are bound to be ideas of dhammas as lasting - for example the dhammas we take for the computer - and this is still an idea of permanence or eternalism. .... >R: It also would be interesting to understand how, rather than completely falling away, the content of one citta changes to the new content of the next citta, which I assume are never exactly the same. .... S: The first citta completely falls away. The content doesn't "change". There are just conditions for the next citta to arise, conditioned to be just the way it is. To know why citta B follows citta A and not citta C, we have to look at the conditions in detail (which only a Buddha can fully comprehend). What is important is to understand the reality of seeing or hearing or whatever other dhamma is appearing now. .... >I also assume that the difference between cittas, even though there is continuity through passing on of tendencies and qualities, is caused by different conditions which lead to different objects, understandings and cetasikas arising with the new citta - a combination of that which has been passed on and accumulated and that which is caused by new arising unique conditions. And that this difference between cittas brought about by new conditions also constitutes genuine "change," or anicca. .... S: Yes, different conditions. As you say, these include accumulations, objects and so on. But again, the anicca refers to the characteristic of each of those dhammas, not to any "change" as we understand it conventionally. ... >.S: "Those same five aggregates are painful because of the words, 'What is impermanent is painful' (S. iii, 22). Why? Because of continuous oppression. The mode of being continuously oppressed is the characteristic of pain. > "Those same five aggregates are not-self because of the words, 'What is painful is not-self' (S. iii, 22). Why? Because there is no exercising of power over them. The mode of insusceptibility to the exercise of power is the characteristic of not-self." Vism. XX1, 5ff .... .R: I also like these details, looking more closely at how dukkha and anatta are related, just as dukkha and anicca were related. So there is an understanding of how impermanence and the impossibility of holding onto an object, and here the inability to control it, are associated with not-self. .... S: Yes, "non-modifiable", as I was discussing with Howard:-) Dhammas arise and fall away far too quickly. .... > .S: The sabhava is just the characteristic or nature of a dhamma. ... If they didn't have different 'sabhavas', then it would be impossible to ever directly know/be aware of any dhamma and there would be no reason to think in different ways about them or to like some and dislike others. There are realities, they have characteristics, but they are anatta - not in anyone's control and not anything other than just dhammas. .... >R:I like your way of characterizing sabhava, as just the raw particularity of the dhamma, without any other significance. ... S: That's a good expression: "the raw particularity of the dhamma":-)) ... >R: ...I wonder if your way of putting that is compatible with the way I have spoken of it, saying that the dhamma just "behaves in a particular way" and "doesn't actually have any content 'inside of it'" or anything that it really "owns" as it is not a being or entity, but just an arising form or action? .... S: Hmmm.... Let's take an example: sound. Can we say a sound "behaves in a particular way"? I wouldn't say a sound has "any content 'inside of it'", but each sound has its own characteristic sound and all sounds have characteristics that are different from visible objects. Furthermore, all rupas (inc. the sounds and visible objects) have characteristics different from all namas. They don't experience anything, they don't act or behave or have any interest in what arises. It is by understanding the dhamma which appears - whether that be a nama or a rupa - that it is then clear what is meant by 'characteristic' or 'sabhava'. It doesn't matter what terms we use. Metta Sarah ====== #115408 From: Shalini S Date: Wed Jun 1, 2011 11:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna- Bon-sin-san Dear All, Thanks for the detailed replies to my question. It was very gladenning to read such profusely shared knowledge about the Sotapanna. Only one confusion then remains: Nina van Gorkham's detailed email on the Sotapanna, there is a repeated emphasis that any kind of Sotapanna is reborn only at the most 7 lifetimes. In other mails by Han, Dieter and others, although cula-sotapanna is mentioned as a person who is not really a sotapanna, the bon-sin-san sotapanna however is mentioned as one who has already attained the magga-phala and is indeed a Stream-winner who is an Ariyan sure to attain to Arahatship, if I understand correctly. However, there is still some confusion in my mind in understanding the Bon-sin-san Sotapanna as just a Burmese term for Sotapanna: Ledi Sayadaw's book states this in a paragraph "The task of extinguishing the unwholesome acts, arisen and not-arisen (akusala kammas of uppanna and anuppanna) consists of ridding oneself of Personality Belief (sakk ya-ditthi) and no more. If sakk ya-ditthi is uprooted, the two akusala kammas (unwholesome volitional actions) are entirely extinguished. "Bon-sin-san" Sot pannas [7] like Vis kh and An thapindika, who are infinitely numerous among humans, devas, and brahm s, are beings who have obtained release from the state of sinking and drifting in the great whirlpool of sams ra (round of rebirths) from the moment Personality Belief (sakk ya-ditthi) was uprooted. They are beings who have attained the first stage of Nibb na called sa-up disesa nibb na (Nibb na with the five constituent groups of existence remaining). Although they are liable to wander in the round of rebirths for many more lives and many more world-cycles, they are no longer worldly beings. Having become "Bon-sin-san" Ariyas (Noble Ones), they are beings of the lokuttara (Supramundane) sphere. Here ends the part showing uppanna and anuppanna akusala kammas from which Sot pannas have obtained their release." There is another statement by L.S, which perhaps led me to this confusion: "If at any time Personality Belief disappears, all the new anuppanna akusala kammas also disappear, even at that instant, from the personality of the beings concerned, leaving no residue. Here, "disappear" means that there will be no occasion, starting from the next instant, in future succession of lives and future succession of world-cycles, when new akusala kammas are perpetrated. Throughout future anamatagga sams ra (beginningless round of rebirths), those beings will not commit, even in their dreams, any akusala kamma (unwholesome volitional action) such as p n tip ta (killing any living being)." I referred to the above words from this link: http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/uni/u-37bd/37bd-e03.htm So my question is: Does the highlighted words mean that bon-sin-sans are to be born any number of rebirths or world-cycles or just the seven?? Does Bon-sin-san Sotapannas have removed only one fetter that is Sakkaya ditthi and not the other two, which is vichikiccha and the attachment to rites and rituals?? thanks and much metta, Shalini --- On Wed, 6/1/11, han tun wrote: >Just one small addition. The literal meaning of Bon-sin-san. Bon comes from the Pali word bhuumi, the realm. Sin (Burmese word) = sequentially one after the other. San (Burmese word) = to abide, to enjoy. That is how [Note 7] in Ledi Sayadaw's Bodhipakkhiya Dipanii comes to be: "Beings who are bound to attain higher and higher stages of sanctity." And also Sarah's remark: "The "Bon-sin-san" on the other hand is a non-Pali expression referring in Burmese to a sotaapanna." <...> #115409 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 1, 2011 11:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anger Hi Howard, Op 31-mei-2011, om 13:58 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Instead of anger being just a desire for the absence of something or > someone, or a "getting away from" something or someone, it seems to > be more > of an energetic desire to strike out at something or someone. Just > consider > how it is often expressed by yelling, by hitting, or by revengeful > action. > It carries with it a great deal of energy directed towards inflicting > harm. By far, I consider it the worst of the emotional defilements. ------- N: Is ignorance not the most dangerous of all defilements? Not knowing at all what is kusala and what akusala? When understanding of realities is being developed, it can be learnt what the characteristic of dosa is and in that way its disadvantage can be clearly known. It can be known that it is a condiitoned element, not my dosa. This is the way eventually leading to its eradication. Ignorance arises together with each defilement and when understanding is being developed, ignorance can be eliminated. Nina. #115410 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 1, 2011 12:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna- Bon-sin-san Dear Shalini, Op 1-jun-2011, om 13:18 heeft Shalini S het volgende geschreven: > So my question is: Does the highlighted words mean that bon-sin- > sans are to be born any number of rebirths or world-cycles or just > the seven?? Does Bon-sin-san Sotapannas have removed only one > fetter that is Sakkaya ditthi and not the other two, which is > vichikiccha and the attachment to rites and rituals?? ------ N: The sotaapanna (no matter one calls him or her bon-sin-san or not) will be reborn not more than seven times, thus, seven or less. Always three fetters are removed: personality belief, doubt and attachment to rites and rituals. The last one is wrong practice, stemming from wrong view. As to doubt: realities are seen as they are, no more doubt about naama and ruupa. Thus, you can see the connection between these three fetters. Nina. #115411 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 1, 2011 8:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anger upasaka_howard Hi, Colette - In a message dated 6/1/2011 1:19:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ksheri3@... writes: Hi Howard, FASCINATING perspective. lol You ascribe to anger the MOTIVATION to strike outwardly. You mean TO TAKE ACTION, if I may. ACTION and MOTION are two behaviors that generate HEAT. Like bijas that are seeds, and once planted, are constantly GERMINATING, thus IN MOTION/ACTIVE, not STATIC or STAGNANT. ---------------------------------------------- H: The relationship between anger and heat is interesting. Anger does produce bodily heat. Also, it is associated with what is thought of as emotional heat. The Buddha likened anger to picking up a burning coal to hurl at someone, burning oneself, of course, first. ---------------------------------------------- With HEAT as a RESULTANT CONDITION then is it possible that the meditation techinque of POWA is considered? ---------------------------------------------- H: I know close to nothing of Tibetan meditative techniques. I was aware that powa pertains to developing an "escape route" at the top of the skull, the fontanel area, and relates to preparation for death, but I don't recall the heat connection. ------------------------------------------------ With the RESULTANT CONDITION OF HEAT being reality, a way to characterize and cognize the INTERNAL CONDITIONS OF AN INDIVIDUAL'S BODY, then isn't it more likely to be FRUITFUL to examine the conditions of HEAT and/or "OF FIRE"? FIRE consumes much like the condition of SLOTH which is a VERY ADDICTIVE CONDITION to have to contend with. This internal heat may be considered as RESULTANT FROM FIRE? ----------------------------------------------- H: Maybe, more generally, the result of energy/viriya. ---------------------------------------------- What "feeds" the fire so that it can consume? Does the ALAYA-VIJNANA feed the fire so that ANGER has a place to exist or subsist? "Yelling, hitting, and revengeful action". The first two can be LABELED (Name & Form, the name manifests the form which the eye sees and cognizes, then RE-COGNIZES, mind being the "consciousness" which creates MANIFESTATION). Yelling and Hitting, two cute aspects of ANGER. --------------------------------------------- H: ;-) Yes, adorable! LOL! -------------------------------------------- Both Yelling and Hitting effect others. The people that KNOW, are conscious of, the results of Yelling and Hitting immediately say that yelling and hitting effect others NEGATIVELY, a causation of PAIN & SUFFERING. --------------------------------------------- H: Consider the irony: The expression of anger by one person eliciting anger in others - a common occurrence. -------------------------------------------- Revengful action is nothing more than a MIND MADE BEHAVIOR. Revenge REQUIRES PLANNING, PRE-MEDITATION ("vengence is mine sayeth the lord", for all those "creationists" out there). ----------------------------------------------- H: Yes, a planned, prepared response to anger. ---------------------------------------------- What is GOAL ORIENTATION? Is it possible that Anger is a result of having a person's GOAL ORIENTATION stopped? -------------------------------------------- H: Yes, often - having one's desires thwarted. ------------------------------------------- Do humans come out of their "incubator" already programmed with PRE-MEDITATION which is masked to appear as though a GOAL ORIENTATION? Isn't it more likely that humans are CONDITIONED to possess a GOAL ORIENTATION while they too are bamboozled, confounded, fooled, by the ILLUSION of MARA? It's not just the "others", external to the person but also the person themselves, who is IN DARKNESS concerning the NATURE of this alleged GOAL ORIENTATION and/or PRE-MEDITATION. One may even suggest that each individual is born clinging to the WHEEL OF SAMSARA as if they were this supposed MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE (see the movie MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE and the process of SUBLIMINAL SUGGESTIONING AS WELL AS HYPNOTISM) ------------------------------------------ H: And, as in the case of "The Manchurian Candidate," a simple triggering (by word or other event) may suffice. ------------------------------------------ How does the Abhidharma differentiate ANGER from HATE? How does an average individual differentiate ANGER from HATE or HATE from ANGER? Are they, HATE and ANGER, the same? If not then how are they different? ------------------------------------------- H: That is a good question for Nina and others. It is clear to me that, while related, they are clearly different. In part, hate strikes me as a hardened, habituated anger - almost an inclination. --------------------------------------------- The girl blue pit bull that we have sleeps with me at night. She wakes me up, typically, around 3-4 a.m. to let her out to go to the bathroom. Sometimes, in the darkness of the basement that I live in, one of the three dogs leaves a "plop plop, fizz fizz" after relieving themselves in the basement and I happen to step in it as I walk in the darkness to the backdoor. I am angery knowing that my foot has been "baptized" by defication but is my anger HATE? --------------------------------------------- H: No, it is not. Would (mild) hate develop if you were "gifted" (LOL!) by your pet all the time? Maybe. -------------------------------------------- Anybody that knows the me and the dogs knows that I do not like hitting them when the dogs do something that they should not do, that humans would not do. I always say how impossible it is for the dogs to know what we, as humans, are telling the dogs NOT TO DO and how impossible it is for the dogs to RESTRAIN their natural bodily functions and natural behaviors JUST BECAUSE MY ROOMMATES, allegedly human, dictate this to the dogs. I am willing to scold the dogs for WRONG BEHAVIOR but I know that they do not speak the same lang uage that we humans speak so they could not possibly UNDERSTAND and KNOW. I immediately cognize that I HAVE ANGER but it just as immediately leaves my person since I know that FAULT is something that's pretty hard to define. Even when I'm laying on the bed or sitting in the chair next to my bed, the dogs get up on the bed and start "playing" and they use their teeth clearly. I immediately STOP THIS BEHAVIOR since "NO FIGHTING ON MY BED" (it's my own personal quirk that I believe that a RESIDUE exists from the "heightened" emotions that the dogs are experiencing and I do not want it in my bed when I'm meditating or sleeping) > It carries with it a great deal of energy directed towards inflicting > harm. By far, I consider it the worst of the emotional defilements. Naw, I think that ANGER is just part of MARA's illusiory practices so that HATE can be better glorified. ---------------------------------------------- H: We may differ on this. ---------------------------------------------- Good thought though. ----------------------------------------------- H: :-) A good conversation! ----------------------------------------------- toodles, colette =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #115412 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 1, 2011 8:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Enlightenment from the light side upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Lukas) - In a message dated 6/1/2011 3:19:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard, You wrote to Lukas: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ------------------------------------------------------- > Lukas, your "nature," as that of all sankaras and aggregates of > sankharas, is conditioned, transitory, and modifiable.<...> ... S: In what way are sankharas or khandhas "modifiable", I wonder? ------------------------------------------------- H: First of all, the Buddha did write of dhammas changing while standing. But secondly, and much more to the point, I was not speaking of a modification of individual, conditioned dhammas, but of a person. A *person*, Lukas being the one I was speaking of, has no fixed nature because of the constant rise and fall of conditions. So, there is constant modification of "nature," and, hence, no fixed nature at all. -------------------------------------------------- From a recent message of Ven Samahita's #115285: "Q: Is the body and all external form, lasting or transient? A: Transient Q: Is feeling, pleasant or not, lasting or transient? A: Transient! Q: Is experienced perceptions lasting or transient? A: Transient! Q: Is the mental constructions lasting or transient? A: Transient! Q: Is naked awareness = consciousness lasting or transient? A: Transient! Q: Is the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind, lasting or transient? Q: Is form, sound, smell, taste, touch and thought, lasting or transient? Q: Is solidity, fluidity, heat, motion, and space, lasting or transient? Answer: All these are Transient!, Impermanent!, Temporary!, Fleeting! Q: Is what is transient, happiness or suffering? A: Decay is Suffering! Q: Is what is transient, ever changing and therefore frustrating pain suitable to be regarded as: "This is Mine, This I Am, This is Me" "This I can Keep, This I can control, This I Posses, This is my Self" ...??? Answer: No certainly Not ...!!!, since what is self must be keepable, same, constant, controllable, under one's own full power, and thus pleasant... As all these phenomena are none of this, they cannot ever be self!" <...> Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaaya II 244-5 ... Sarah: Isn't the whole message about how the khandhas, the conditioned dhammas, as enumerated above, "conditioned, transitory and NON-modifiable", not under the control of any self? ------------------------------------------------ H: When speaking of "modifiable," I meant only "liable to change," i.e., open to change due to conditions. I was not speaking of any "author of change". ------------------------------------------------ Of course, I appreciate your point that this doesn't mean liberation is not possible, that understanding cannot develop. This is why in the sutta above, the Buddha went on to say: "Seeing this [S: that khandhas are not controllable etc because they are not in the power of a self], understanding this, comprehending this, the Noble Learner is disgusted by all form, disgusted by all sensing, by all physical, by all mental. Being thus disgusted, one experiences an opening disillusion....The veil is off. Without illusions, the mind is fully released and one immediately knows: This mental liberation is final and irreversible. This -exactly this state is called Nibbaana." Metta Sarah ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #115413 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 1, 2011 8:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anger upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/1/2011 7:54:13 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 31-mei-2011, om 13:58 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Instead of anger being just a desire for the absence of something or > someone, or a "getting away from" something or someone, it seems to > be more > of an energetic desire to strike out at something or someone. Just > consider > how it is often expressed by yelling, by hitting, or by revengeful > action. > It carries with it a great deal of energy directed towards inflicting > harm. By far, I consider it the worst of the emotional defilements. ------- N: Is ignorance not the most dangerous of all defilements? Not knowing at all what is kusala and what akusala? --------------------------------------- H: Yes, it is. I was careful to write that I consider anger to be the worst of the EMOTIONAL defilements. ------------------------------------------ When understanding of realities is being developed, it can be learnt what the characteristic of dosa is and in that way its disadvantage can be clearly known. It can be known that it is a condiitoned element, not my dosa. This is the way eventually leading to its eradication. Ignorance arises together with each defilement and when understanding is being developed, ignorance can be eliminated. Nina. =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #115414 From: Shalini S Date: Wed Jun 1, 2011 12:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna- Bon-sin-san shalnew Dear All, Just after my previous email I noticed a few words in Ledi Sayadaw's book, which partially answered my question but the confusion is now solidified... . Because of noticing the following contradiction: From Nina's email: “Pañcappakaraùatthakathå”, Commentary to the “Puggalapaññatti” says: "Some sotåpannas are inclined to life in the cycle, they enjoy the process of existence and they traverse different lives. The following people had this inclination: Anåthapiùèika the layfollower Visåkhå Cúlaratha deva Mahåratha deva Anekavaùùa deva Sakka, King of the devas Någadatta deva but they were reborn not more than seven times and then attained arahatship. ......” Editor's notes in Ledi Sayadaw's Requisites..... book: Bon-sin-san is a term in the Burmese language, signifying a type of Stream-Winner (sot panna) that will reach final deliverance in Arahatship after numerous rebirths in successively higher stages of existences. This term has no equivalent in the Sutta texts where only those are called Sot pannas who have, at the utmost, seven rebirths before them, among men and deities. Bon-sin-san is a concept familiar in Burmese doctrinal tradition, for which reference is made to the following commentarial passages which are said to imply the sense of the term: - Comy. to Indriya-Samyutta, Chalindriya Vagga, Ekabiji Sutta, commenting on the word sattakkhattuparamo. - Comy. to Dgha Nik ya, Sakkapanha Sutta (at the end), commenting on the words so niv so bhavissati. - Comy. to Puggala-pannatti (Pancappakarana Atthakatha), Ekaka-niddesa, commenting on the word ekabiji. Any comments on this? Especially has anybody come across a Burmese master's words on this particular topic of Bon-sin-san ? Seems interesting to know that if the comments in L.S book is true , one can actually become a Ariyan and yet have numerous rebirths in better planes of existence. I wonder how that is attained... seems enticing.. :-), oh well that is a worldling's akusala comment of craving I must admit. Thanks Shalini Serenity comes to those who trade expectations with acceptance. --- On Wed, 6/1/11, Shalini S wrote: From: Shalini S Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna- Bon-sin-san To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, June 1, 2011, 6:18 AM Dear All, Thanks for the detailed replies to my question. It was very gladenning to read such profusely shared knowledge about the Sotapanna. Only one confusion then remains: Nina van Gorkham's detailed email on the Sotapanna, there is a repeated emphasis that any kind of Sotapanna is reborn only at the most 7 lifetimes. In other mails by Han, Dieter and others, although cula-sotapanna is mentioned as a person who is not really a sotapanna, the bon-sin-san sotapanna however is mentioned as one who has already attained the magga-phala and is indeed a Stream-winner who is an Ariyan sure to attain to Arahatship, if I understand correctly. <....> #115415 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 1, 2011 2:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna- Bon-sin-san Dear Shalini, Op 1-jun-2011, om 14:48 heeft Shalini S het volgende geschreven: > Comy. to Puggala-pannatti (Pancappakarana Atthakatha), Ekaka- > niddesa, commenting on the word ekabiji. > > Any comments on this? Especially has anybody come across a Burmese > master's words on this particular topic of Bon-sin-san ? Seems > interesting to know that if the comments in L.S book is true , one > can actually become a Ariyan and yet have numerous rebirths in > better planes of existence. I wonder how that is attained... seems > enticing.. :-), oh well that is a worldling's akusala comment of > craving I must admit. ------- N: Ledi Sayadaw speaks about numerous rebirths, but according to the texts not more than seven. As to the words, with a single seed, ekabjin, it is said that seed means the seed of the khandhas. This sotpanna germinates the khandhas only once more . He has to assume only one more existence and thus he is called "single seeded". Only the arahat has eradicated clinging to birth. The sotaapanna may still cling to birth, but he also knows that it is due to conditions that one still has to continue in samsara. He knows: not a person is reborn, there are only naama and ruupa. He also knows, this clinging is only a conditioned naama, it arises because he has accumulated clinging. ------ Nina. #115416 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 1, 2011 2:43 pm Subject: Discussions in Keang Kracan with Phil. no 2. Dear friends, Phil was wondering whether it is not lobha to want to develop understanding of realities. Kh S: The point of Dhamma is not: having less akusala and more kusala, but just understanding. Otherwise there is lobha again. --------- A question about what nimitta is: Kh S: It is there now. It is there because of the rapid arising and falling away of realities. No matter which unit of visible object is arising asnd falling away, it keeps on arising and falling away so that it forms up the sign (nimitta) of it as something that can be seen. Whenever there is seeing there is the sign of the rapid arising and falling away of realities. Q: Through all doorways? Kh S: Through all doorways. The nimitta covers up the truth of realities which arise and fall away. No one can really directly experience a particular reality, because there are so many [N: arising and falling away very rapidly] that form up the sign, the idea of people and things. There is a reality that can be seen and pa~n~naa begins to understand that what is seen cannot be any one at all. Only memory and thinking condition the idea of someone or something . One lives in the world of nimitta of everything. Even citta or vi~n~naa.na is vi~n~naa.na nimitta. There are also ruupa nimitta, vedanaa nimitta, sa~n~naa nimitta, sa"nkhaara nimitta. It is not each particular reality that is cognized, it is so short; but the nimitta of each one is cognized. If there can be sati on and on, feeling appears as that particular feeling. The nimitta of visible object can be the object of understanding, it can be understood as the nimitta of that characteristic, not as people or things. There is touching and hardness appears. Does it arise and fall away? Answer: yes. Sarah: At the moment of understanding a characteristic there is no concern whether this is visible object or nimitta. Kh S: Even understanding that what appears is only visible object is not easy. It is the truth. Without understanding this there is no way to experience the arising and falling away of realities. ******* Nina. #115417 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jun 1, 2011 3:32 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Rob E, > > We were discussing the ti-lakkhana of dhammas and you kindly wrote: > > --- On Thu, 26/5/11, Robert E wrote: > >R:I found all of these quotes and your discussion of them extremely interesting and helpful. Sometimes the detailed quotes answer these questions very well because they discuss in detail the way in which the quality of anatta or one of the other characteristics is really understood 'by the wise.' On the other hand, they also raise more questions... > ... > S: Many thx for your comments and I agree about the "more questions" that the details raise... > ... > >>S: "When continuity is disrupted means when continuity is exposed by observation of the perpetual alteration of states as they go on occurring in succession. For it is not through the connectedness of states, that the characteristic of impermanence becomes apparent to one who rightly observes rise and fall, but rather the transience characteristic becomes properly evident through these states discrete disconnectedness, regarded as if each moment were iron darts hitting the screen of awareness. Or as single pearls on a string, but not continuous as the string itself..." > > > VismA. 824 > ... > > R:>I do have some questions about this description, and I like the metaphor very much. > > >It seems to me that one must be cognisant not only of the nature of the beads, but also of the existence of what would represent the string. In other words, the individual nature of dhammas always seems to be emphasized, and the fact that they completely arise and fall away, as if they were independent, as beads would be if they were *not* on a string, but just jumping up and down in the air, ie, rising and then falling all by themselves, each one. But in fact it is acknowledged that each citta passes on its characteristics and qualities and knowledge to the next citta as it falls away, and so in fact there *is* a continuity between arising and falling dhammas. > .... > S: There is a continuity as you suggest - each citta conditions the next one by anantara paccaya, for example. However, the path is about the direct understanding of what is experienced. At any one instant, there is only ever one citta arising and falling away. The understanding of the impermanence of dhammas is not the understanding of an imaginary string or idea of continuity or ever-changing phenemona, but the direct understanding of the impermanence of the citta, cetasika or rupa appearing now. The continuity of dhammas, the fact that dhammas continue on in succession is what leads our ignorance and wrong view to assume that there is some lastingness, some permanence. > ... > >R:I do not quite understand why there is the polarized view that change should be seen as complete dissolution of each dhamma and thereby a process of complete destruction rather than seeing change as both falling away *and* the continuity of all that is passed on at each moment when the dhamma is falling away. It seems to me that change or anicca is *both* the rising/falling away action *and* the passing on/continuity aspect of what continues to go on from citta to citta. So to me it seems logical that both should be equally understood as aspects of anicca and not just the falling away. > ... > S: It is because "a process of complete destruction" is the nature of each (conditioned) dhamma that it is dukkha and completely beyond the control of anyone or thing to make it otherwise. > > Now, if we are talking about cittas, it is true that whilst in samsara, each citta conditions the next one, birth after birth until ignorance is eradicated. This is according to conditions and doesn't affect the nature of anicca of those dhammas. Again, it is the illusion of lastingness or permanence of dhammas that gives rise to ideas of dhammas as sukkha. > > You were discussing the middle way with Ken H before and ideas of eternalism and anihilationism. Until wrong view has been eradicated, there are bound to be ideas of dhammas as lasting - for example the dhammas we take for the computer - and this is still an idea of permanence or eternalism. I can appreciate this, and I can also see why the commentators would thus emphasize the danger of seeing continuity instead of complete falling away, since it gives the false impression that we can hold onto something that can last or give satisfaction in a later moment if we cling to it and try to maintain our involvement with it. Seeing the complete falling away of that which we crave would lead to disenchantment and detachment. And this struggle with eternalism or its lesser version, some form of "lasting-ness," is a binding illusion that has to be released. However, it seems to me that there is the opposite problem, and one that concerned the Buddha as well, that of annihilation, the illusion of complete destruction, and perhaps that is more of a problem for one who has become disenchanted, but still clings to an idea of control. "Well, if I can't hold onto this object, I will completely destroy it and get rid of it." Some even commit suicide to eradicate attachment and that just leads to more samsara. So in emphasizing the destruction of dhammas without the continuity, the beads without the string, doesn't that lead to annihilationism, the idea that there is absolute destruction of dhammas? After all, when one dhamma falls away, the next immediately arises. The arising of a dhamma is just as much a true experience in the moment as the falling away is. The falling away, I think, is not emphasize because it is more real than the rising, but because it is the solution to the problem of clinging. But seeing the rising as equally real is the solution to the opposite problem, that of clinging to cessation or trying to rush to cessation when factors of ignorance are really creating the reality of re-arising. So I still think it's important to see both phases and not just emphasize one. This leads to another question, which is "what actually is in a single moment of experience?" It seems to me that a single moment of experience may contain the arising of a dhamma, the sustaining of a dhamma, or the falling away of a dhamma. When you speak of a moment, does it contain only one of those actions, or all three? Does a single citta, which itself is a dhamma experiencing another dhamma, take in merely a segment of one of those actions, a full action, or the entire cycle? Since a citta itself is rising, functioning and falling away, the experiencing citta is itself in flux as it experiences. So what is it doing during its single moment and where in its own cycle does the experience take place? During its own cycle of rising and falling away, is it able to take in the full cycle of the dhamma it is experiencing, which is also rising and falling away? Does it only take in the sustaining part of the dhamma when it itself is in its own sustaining phase? If so, how is rising and falling ever experienced and known directly? Does it experience the object of its experience rising as it itself rises, etc.? How would this be possible? I think these problems in defining the true experience of a citta, of a "moment," and of what aspect of a rising and falling dhamma that is being experienced is actually experienced by a rising and falling citta, suggests that the single-citta/momentary dhamma/rising-functioning-falling away model of experience is really just an approximation of what takes place in a single moment of true experience. Isolating a single moment, a single citta, as an independent experience like a "dart hitting a board," a metaphor that I loved for its clarity above, gives a false impression that a citta can experience a changing object while it itself is changing in a static sort of definite way that seems to defy the fact that both the citta and the object of the citta are in motion and flux, not standing still, and so it would be more like the single "dart" of experience is flying through the air during its experiencing, rather than hitting the board and registering as a definite experience that can be stopped and examined. If it is defined just as it is given in the commentaries, then we should be able to know exactly what the citta is doing as it arises, functions and falls away, and in what part of that cycle the actual experiencing, the actual moment, takes place. Do we? Is that actually a real model of how true direct experiencing takes place? How does it work? > .... > >R: It also would be interesting to understand how, rather than completely falling away, the content of one citta changes to the new content of the next citta, which I assume are never exactly the same. > .... > S: The first citta completely falls away. The content doesn't "change". There are just conditions for the next citta to arise, conditioned to be just the way it is. To know why citta B follows citta A and not citta C, we have to look at the conditions in detail (which only a Buddha can fully comprehend). What is important is to understand the reality of seeing or hearing or whatever other dhamma is appearing now. > .... > >I also assume that the difference between cittas, even though there is continuity through passing on of tendencies and qualities, is caused by different conditions which lead to different objects, understandings and cetasikas arising with the new citta - a combination of that which has been passed on and accumulated and that which is caused by new arising unique conditions. And that this difference between cittas brought about by new conditions also constitutes genuine "change," or anicca. > .... > S: Yes, different conditions. As you say, these include accumulations, objects and so on. But again, the anicca refers to the characteristic of each of those dhammas, not to any "change" as we understand it conventionally. Well, that is a little bit of a problem for me. This idea that each citta exists in complete isolation and that the change is only to itself falling away, seems again to be a reduction of the constantly changing nature of samsara and its objects and experiences. I am not saying it's not true, just that my response to it has a certain amount of skepticism. I don't see why the continuity, the passing on, the continuing arising of cittas and objects of cittas, is reduced to a single moment by itself, since it's really only by itself in one sense, and is making contact with the next citta in another aspect. The one-citta universe seems like an isolated view to me, rather than the "way things are," because we all know that experience is created by continuous arising of more experiential moments. Sure, that is part of the cycle of suffering that moments keep arising, and stopping the music is a goal of the path, but that doesn't mean that only one citta exists, even though another one is arising in time to get influenced by the one before. If they had no contact, citta A and citta B, experience would come to a grinding halt and cessation would be the reality. > .... > .... > > .S: The sabhava is just the characteristic or nature of a dhamma. ... If they didn't have different 'sabhavas', then it would be impossible to ever directly know/be aware of any dhamma and there would be no reason to think in different ways about them or to like some and dislike others. There are realities, they have characteristics, but they are anatta - not in anyone's control and not anything other than just dhammas. > .... > >R:I like your way of characterizing sabhava, as just the raw particularity of the dhamma, without any other significance. > ... > S: That's a good expression: "the raw particularity of the dhamma":-)) > ... > >R: ...I wonder if your way of putting that is compatible with the way I have spoken of it, saying that the dhamma just "behaves in a particular way" and "doesn't actually have any content 'inside of it'" or anything that it really "owns" as it is not a being or entity, but just an arising form or action? > .... > S: Hmmm.... Let's take an example: sound. > Can we say a sound "behaves in a particular way"? I wouldn't say a sound has "any content 'inside of it'", but each sound has its own characteristic sound and all sounds have characteristics that are different from visible objects. Furthermore, all rupas (inc. the sounds and visible objects) have characteristics different from all namas. They don't experience anything, they don't act or behave or have any interest in what arises. Well they have a characteristic way of behaving, sure, but they don't "own" those characteristics, they just behave that particular way. Why call it "own-being" which sounds like a little self? It seems like an unnecessary danger of establishing more substantial character to a type of dhamma than is necessary. Why do it? To me, own-being seems to have a feeling of attachment to the object. It doesn't sit right. It is giving the dhamma too much credit. As you say, it doesn't care, it doesn't experience, so what is "own" about that? To have something of one's "own" suggests that it is involved in some way. > It is by understanding the dhamma which appears - whether that be a nama or a rupa - that it is then clear what is meant by 'characteristic' or 'sabhava'. It doesn't matter what terms we use. I agree, as long as the terms are not laden with the feeling of a "secret self," even if it only lasts for a moment. "Own-being" has two things in it I don't think are so great, "own" and "being," both of which suggest more involvement and importance than I think is really meant to be there. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #115418 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 1, 2011 12:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing Hi, Robert (and Sarah) - In a message dated 6/1/2011 11:32:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Rob E, > > We were discussing the ti-lakkhana of dhammas and you kindly wrote: > > --- On Thu, 26/5/11, Robert E wrote: > >R:I found all of these quotes and your discussion of them extremely interesting and helpful. Sometimes the detailed quotes answer these questions very well because they discuss in detail the way in which the quality of anatta or one of the other characteristics is really understood 'by the wise.' On the other hand, they also raise more questions... > ... > S: Many thx for your comments and I agree about the "more questions" that the details raise... > ... > >>S: "When continuity is disrupted means when continuity is exposed by observation of the perpetual alteration of states as they go on occurring in succession. For it is not through the connectedness of states, that the characteristic of impermanence becomes apparent to one who rightly observes rise and fall, but rather the transience characteristic becomes properly evident through these states discrete disconnectedness, regarded as if each moment were iron darts hitting the screen of awareness. Or as single pearls on a string, but not continuous as the string itself..." > > > VismA. 824 > ... > > R:>I do have some questions about this description, and I like the metaphor very much. > > >It seems to me that one must be cognisant not only of the nature of the beads, but also of the existence of what would represent the string. In other words, the individual nature of dhammas always seems to be emphasized, and the fact that they completely arise and fall away, as if they were independent, as beads would be if they were *not* on a string, but just jumping up and down in the air, ie, rising and then falling all by themselves, each one. But in fact it is acknowledged that each citta passes on its characteristics and qualities and knowledge to the next citta as it falls away, and so in fact there *is* a continuity between arising and falling dhammas. > .... > S: There is a continuity as you suggest - each citta conditions the next one by anantara paccaya, for example. However, the path is about the direct understanding of what is experienced. At any one instant, there is only ever one citta arising and falling away. The understanding of the impermanence of dhammas is not the understanding of an imaginary string or idea of continuity or ever-changing phenemona, but the direct understanding of the impermanence of the citta, cetasika or rupa appearing now. The continuity of dhammas, the fact that dhammas continue on in succession is what leads our ignorance and wrong view to assume that there is some lastingness, some permanence. > ... > >R:I do not quite understand why there is the polarized view that change should be seen as complete dissolution of each dhamma and thereby a process of complete destruction rather than seeing change as both falling away *and* the continuity of all that is passed on at each moment when the dhamma is falling away. It seems to me that change or anicca is *both* the rising/falling away action *and* the passing on/continuity aspect of what continues to go on from citta to citta. So to me it seems logical that both should be equally understood as aspects of anicca and not just the falling away. > ... > S: It is because "a process of complete destruction" is the nature of each (conditioned) dhamma that it is dukkha and completely beyond the control of anyone or thing to make it otherwise. > > Now, if we are talking about cittas, it is true that whilst in samsara, each citta conditions the next one, birth after birth until ignorance is eradicated. This is according to conditions and doesn't affect the nature of anicca of those dhammas. Again, it is the illusion of lastingness or permanence of dhammas that gives rise to ideas of dhammas as sukkha. > > You were discussing the middle way with Ken H before and ideas of eternalism and anihilationism. Until wrong view has been eradicated, there are bound to be ideas of dhammas as lasting - for example the dhammas we take for the computer - and this is still an idea of permanence or eternalism. I can appreciate this, and I can also see why the commentators would thus emphasize the danger of seeing continuity instead of complete falling away, since it gives the false impression that we can hold onto something that can last or give satisfaction in a later moment if we cling to it and try to maintain our involvement with it. Seeing the complete falling away of that which we crave would lead to disenchantment and detachment. And this struggle with eternalism or its lesser version, some form of "lasting-ness," is a binding illusion that has to be released. However, it seems to me that there is the opposite problem, and one that concerned the Buddha as well, that of annihilation, the illusion of complete destruction, and perhaps that is more of a problem for one who has become disenchanted, but still clings to an idea of control. "Well, if I can't hold onto this object, I will completely destroy it and get rid of it." Some even commit suicide to eradicate attachment and that just leads to more samsara. So in emphasizing the destruction of dhammas without the continuity, the beads without the string, doesn't that lead to annihilationism, the idea that there is absolute destruction of dhammas? After all, when one dhamma falls away, the next immediately arises. The arising of a dhamma is just as much a true experience in the moment as the falling away is. The falling away, I think, is not emphasize because it is more real than the rising, but because it is the solution to the problem of clinging. But seeing the rising as equa lly real is the solution to the opposite problem, that of clinging to cessation or trying to rush to cessation when factors of ignorance are really creating the reality of re-arising. So I still think it's important to see both phases and not just emphasize one. ------------------------------------------------------ H: It seems to me that there are two mutually dependent extremes here: One of these is a sort of (modified) eternalism wherein things last as-is (for some period of time). The other is the creation and annihilation of true existents. It seems to me that these are interrelated: An alleged true existent arising, staying as-is (even for a brief while), and then annihilated. The truth of the middle is to be found, I believe, in the Buddha's talk of "change while standing" as something additional to arising and cessation. Whatever constantly changes lacks identity and separate existence. It is mere convention to view such things as discrete, separate entities, and any talk of such, including their arising, change while standing, and ceasing, is also mere convention, though, from the conventional perspective, such behavior is perfectly factual. Analogy: One can properly speak of an ocean wave arising, changing, and falling away, and yet, when examined closely, there is no separate thing that is the wave except as a matter of convention. (Actually, the foregoing is more than analogy: Consciousness and its objects do indeed exhibit wave behavior.) -------------------------------------------------------- This leads to another question, which is "what actually is in a single moment of experience?" It seems to me that a single moment of experience may contain the arising of a dhamma, the sustaining of a dhamma, or the falling away of a dhamma. When you speak of a moment, does it contain only one of those actions, or all three? Does a single citta, which itself is a dhamma experiencing another dhamma, take in merely a segment of one of those actions, a full action, or the entire cycle? Since a citta itself is rising, functioning and falling away, the experiencing citta is itself in flux as it experiences. So what is it doing during its single moment and where in its own cycle does the experience take place? During its own cycle of rising and falling away, is it able to take in the full cycle of the dhamma it is experiencing, which is also rising and falling away? Does it only take in the sustaining part of the dhamma when it itself is in its own sustaining phase? If so, how is rising and falling ever experienced and known directly? Does it experience the object o f its experience rising as it itself rises, etc.? How would this be possible? I think these problems in defining the true experience of a citta, of a "moment," and of what aspect of a rising and falling dhamma that is being experienced is actually experienced by a rising and falling citta, suggests that the single-citta/momentary dhamma/rising-functioning-falling away model of experience is really just an approximation of what takes place in a single moment of true experience. Isolating a single moment, a single citta, as an independent experience like a "dart hitting a board," a metaphor that I loved for its clarity above, gives a false impression that a citta can experience a changing object while it itself is changing in a static sort of definite way that seems to defy the fact that both the citta and the object of the citta are in motion and flux, not standing still, and so it would be more like the single "dart" of experience is flying through the air during its experiencing, rather than hitting the board and registering as a definite experience that can be stopped and examined. If it is defined just as it is given in the commentaries, then we should be able to know exactly what the citta is doing as it arises, functions and falls away, and in what part of that cycle the actual experiencing, the actual moment, takes place. Do we? Is that actually a real model of how true direct experiencing takes place? How does it work? > .... > >R: It also would be interesting to understand how, rather than completely falling away, the content of one citta changes to the new content of the next citta, which I assume are never exactly the same. > .... > S: The first citta completely falls away. The content doesn't "change". There are just conditions for the next citta to arise, conditioned to be just the way it is. To know why citta B follows citta A and not citta C, we have to look at the conditions in detail (which only a Buddha can fully comprehend). What is important is to understand the reality of seeing or hearing or whatever other dhamma is appearing now. > .... > >I also assume that the difference between cittas, even though there is continuity through passing on of tendencies and qualities, is caused by different conditions which lead to different objects, understandings and cetasikas arising with the new citta - a combination of that which has been passed on and accumulated and that which is caused by new arising unique conditions. And that this difference between cittas brought about by new conditions also constitutes genuine "change," or anicca. > .... > S: Yes, different conditions. As you say, these include accumulations, objects and so on. But again, the anicca refers to the characteristic of each of those dhammas, not to any "change" as we understand it conventionally. Well, that is a little bit of a problem for me. This idea that each citta exists in complete isolation and that the change is only to itself falling away, seems again to be a reduction of the constantly changing nature of samsara and its objects and experiences. ---------------------------------------------------- H: In fact, it flies in the face of the Buddha's mention of "change while standing". ------------------------------------------------------ I am not saying it's not true, just that my response to it has a certain amount of skepticism. I don't see why the continuity, the passing on, the continuing arising of cittas and objects of cittas, is reduced to a single moment by itself, since it's really only by itself in one sense, and is making contact with the next citta in another aspect. The one-citta universe seems like an isolated view to me, rather than the "way things are," because we all know that experience is created by continuous arising of more experiential moments. Sure, that is part of the cycle of suffering that moments keep arising, and stopping the music is a goal of the path, but that doesn't mean that only one citta exists, even though another one is arising in time to get influenced by the one before. If they had no contact, citta A and citta B, experience would come to a grinding halt and cessation would be the reality. ---------------------------------------------------- H: There are no gaps in consciousness. That is Dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------- > .... > .... > > .S: The sabhava is just the characteristic or nature of a dhamma. ... If they didn't have different 'sabhavas', then it would be impossible to ever directly know/be aware of any dhamma and there would be no reason to think in different ways about them or to like some and dislike others. There are realities, they have characteristics, but they are anatta - not in anyone's control and not anything other than just dhammas. > .... > >R:I like your way of characterizing sabhava, as just the raw particularity of the dhamma, without any other significance. > ... > S: That's a good expression: "the raw particularity of the dhamma":-)) > ... > >R: ...I wonder if your way of putting that is compatible with the way I have spoken of it, saying that the dhamma just "behaves in a particular way" and "doesn't actually have any content 'inside of it'" or anything that it really "owns" as it is not a being or entity, but just an arising form or action? > .... > S: Hmmm.... Let's take an example: sound. > Can we say a sound "behaves in a particular way"? I wouldn't say a sound has "any content 'inside of it'", but each sound has its own characteristic sound and all sounds have characteristics that are different from visible objects. Furthermore, all rupas (inc. the sounds and visible objects) have characteristics different from all namas. They don't experience anything, they don't act or behave or have any interest in what arises. Well they have a characteristic way of behaving, sure, but they don't "own" those characteristics, they just behave that particular way. Why call it "own-being" which sounds like a little self? It seems like an unnecessary danger of establishing more substantial character to a type of dhamma than is necessary. Why do it? To me, own-being seems to have a feeling of attachment to the object. It doesn't sit right. It is giving the dhamma too much credit. As you say, it doesn't care, it doesn't experience, so what is "own" about that? To have something of one's "own" suggests that it is involved in some way. > It is by understanding the dhamma which appears - whether that be a nama or a rupa - that it is then clear what is meant by 'characteristic' or 'sabhava'. It doesn't matter what terms we use. I agree, as long as the terms are not laden with the feeling of a "secret self," even if it only lasts for a moment. "Own-being" has two things in it I don't think are so great, "own" and "being," both of which suggest more involvement and importance than I think is really meant to be there. Best, Robert E. ================================ With metta, Howard /"Monks, these three are conditioned characteristics of what is conditioned. Which three? Arising is discernible, passing away is discernible, change while remaining is discernible. "These are three conditioned characteristics of what is conditioned./ (From the Sankhata Sutta) #115419 From: Kevin F Date: Wed Jun 1, 2011 6:08 pm Subject: Sotapanna can have many births? Hi Group, As I understand it the Sotapanna has max 7 births left in the sense sphere. Is that correct? It was my understanding that births in the arupa jhana planes where only Anagami's are born don't count, because they are different than births in the sense sphere. There, I think, a sotapanna can be born many, many times (potentially) cycling through the higher levels of realms there where the lifespan becomes progressively longer and longer. I am not sure about this fact. Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." #115420 From: Kevin F Date: Wed Jun 1, 2011 6:12 pm Subject: Satisfied by these five.. Hi all, just wanted to share this verse of the Blessed One. . . Aguttara Nikya 003. Pacagikavaggo 5. Anuggahitasutta Made satisfactory003.05. Bhikkhus, satisfied by these five characteristics there comes about right view of the fruits of release of mind and its benefits, the fruits of release through wisdom and its benefits. What five? Here, bhikkhus, right view comes about through the satisfaction of virtues, through the satisfaction of learning, satisfied after a discussion, through the satisfaction of appeasement and satisfied seeing with insight. Bhikkhus, satisfied by these five characteristics there comes about right view of the fruits of release of mind and its benefits, the fruits of release through wisdom and its benefits. -http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara3/5-pancakani\ pata/003-pancangikavaggo-e.html Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." #115421 From: Kevin F Date: Wed Jun 1, 2011 6:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sotapanna can have many births? Hi all, Kevin: I used the wrong term. I should have said Śuddhāvāsa. My original message: ... It was my understanding that births in the _arupa jhana planes where only Anagami's are born don't count... Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." ________________________________ #115422 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jun 1, 2011 7:55 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > /"Monks, these three are conditioned characteristics of what is > conditioned. Which three? Arising is discernible, passing away is discernible, change > while remaining is discernible. > "These are three conditioned characteristics of what is conditioned./ > (From the Sankhata Sutta) What I especially like about this great section of the sutta is what a strong clear view of anicca it presents. When something is arising, it is developing into a certain sort of form, like the wave rising out of the form of the ocean; when it is passing away, one can easily see the crest of the wave and the size and shape of the wave declining back into the general form of the water; but change while remaining is a fantastic paradox which is asserted to be the mode of existence of that which appears to be a certain way; and so the Buddha is saying clearly that "even that which stands is made up only of many smaller changes" and that it's "standing as X" is only an apparency. In fact if you broke down the changes taking place while something appears to be in a certain form, you would find smaller "standing structures" which themselves would also be subject to "change while standing." The whole idea is really quite psychedelic, isn't it? There isn't anywhere to stand, and there is nothing solid to stand with, or on. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #115423 From: Shalini S Date: Wed Jun 1, 2011 2:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna- Bon-sin-san Thanks Nina. I missed this email. I have put down some of the contradictions that I see in the commentaries given in Ledi Sayadaw's book and the commentary that you quoted in another email. And it looks like L.S book does say that there are more than seven rebirths for a bon-sin-san email. I have quoted the specific paragraphs in this regard in the other email. I would love to hear your perspective/comments on this and if you come across any other articles/books by the Sangha to clarify this. Thanks and metta Shalini Serenity comes to those who trade expectations with acceptance. --- On Wed, 6/1/11, Nina van Gorkom wrote: From: Nina van Gorkom <...> N: The sotaapanna (no matter one calls him or her bon-sin-san or not) will be reborn not more than seven times, thus, seven or less. Always three fetters are removed: personality belief, doubt and attachment to rites and rituals. The last one is wrong practice, stemming from wrong view. As to doubt: realities are seen as they are, no more doubt about naama and ruupa. Thus, you can see the connection between these three fetters. #115424 From: han tun Date: Wed Jun 1, 2011 11:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna- Bon-sin-san Online Now Send IM Dear Shalini, Nina, and All, [Shalini]: Especially has anybody come across a Burmese master's words on this particular topic of Bon-sin-san ? [Han]: Yes, there is another Burmese Sayadaw [there may be more] who wrote that Bon-sin-san sotaapanna can live more than seven lives. Ashin Obhaasaabhiva.msa Mahaa Thera wrote a book in Burmese called "Sammaa-magga"nga-pa~nha". The book is on Question-and-Answer format, and Sayadaw described four types of Sotaapanna. (i) sattakkhattuparama sotaapanna who is reborn in human and deva worlds, at most, seven times. (ii). kolankola sotaapanna who is reborn in human and deva worlds, two to six times. (iii). ekabjin sotaapanna who is reborn in human and deva worlds, only one time. (iv) another type of sotaapanna who is reborn in human, deva and brahma worlds (except five suddhaavaasa realms) for several times, like Anaathapindika and Visaakhaa. [Han: These sotaapannas are called Bon-sin-san sotaapannas.] --------------- On the other hand, Nina is very firm (with various quotes to support her). [Nina]: The sotaapanna (no matter one calls him or her bon-sin-san or not) will be reborn not more than seven times, thus, seven or less. [Han]: Therefore, the best way to solve this problem is, please consider [Bon-sin-san and several births] as a concept familiar in Burmese doctrinal tradition, and leave the matter at that. Kind regards, Han #115425 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 1, 2011 7:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing Hi, Robert - In a message dated 6/1/2011 3:55:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > /"Monks, these three are conditioned characteristics of what is > conditioned. Which three? Arising is discernible, passing away is discernible, change > while remaining is discernible. > "These are three conditioned characteristics of what is conditioned./ > (From the Sankhata Sutta) What I especially like about this great section of the sutta is what a strong clear view of anicca it presents. When something is arising, it is developing into a certain sort of form, like the wave rising out of the form of the ocean; when it is passing away, one can easily see the crest of the wave and the size and shape of the wave declining back into the general form of the water; but change while remaining is a fantastic paradox which is asserted to be the mode of existence of that which appears to be a certain way; and so the Buddha is saying clearly that "even that which stands is made up only of many smaller changes" and that it's "standing as X" is only an apparency. In fact if you broke down the changes taking place while something appears to be in a certain form, you would find smaller "standing structures" which themselves would also be subject to "change while standing." The whole idea is really quite psychedelic, isn't it? --------------------------------------- H: :-) Yes! ------------------------------------ There isn't anywhere to stand, and there is nothing solid to stand with, or on. --------------------------------------- H: Exactly! Nowhere at all to take a stance. With full realization of that, one takes no stance in anything anywhere. And with taking no stance in anything anywhere, the unchanging, unconditioned, boundless, seamless, ungraspable "that" - i.e., nibbana, becomes one's refuge and home. ------------------------------------------ Best, Robert E. ============================== With metta, Howard Released and Unconstrained /Freed, dissociated, & released from ten things, Bahuna, the Tathagata dwells with unrestricted awareness. Which ten? Freed, dissociated, & released from form, the Tathagata dwells with unrestricted awareness. Freed, dissociated, & released from feeling... Freed, dissociated, & released from perception... Freed, dissociated, & released from fabrications... Freed, dissociated, & released from consciousness... Freed, dissociated, & released from birth... Freed, dissociated, & released from aging... Freed, dissociated, & released from death... Freed, dissociated, & released from stress... Freed, dissociated, & released from defilement, the Tathagata dwells with unrestricted awareness. Just as a red, blue, or white lotus born in the water and growing in the water, rises up above the water and stands with no water adhering to it, in the same way the Tathagata " freed, dissociated, & released from these ten things " dwells with unrestricted awareness./ (From the Bahuna Sutta) #115426 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jun 1, 2011 11:57 pm Subject: False Complacency... Friends: Experiencing Danger removes false Complacency of Safety! The Blessed Buddha once said: What, Ananda, is the experience of Danger? Here the Bhikkhu considers thus: Truly, this body is prone to sickness, full of countless painful Dangers. Many kinds of suffering arise in this body, such as: Diseases of eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, head, mouth, tooth-ache, pneumonia, asthma, colds, angina, fever, belly ache, fainting, diarrhoea, kidney failure, cholera, leprosy, arthritis, psoriasis, tuberculosis, epilepsy, anaemia, scabies, ring-worm, psychosis, bilious jaundice, diabetes, strokes & palsy, cancer, piles, boils, fistulas, diseases brought about by cold, heat, starvation, disturbed or failing excretion, disharmonic living, climatic changes, environmental pollution, accidents, social unrest, stress or violence or due to kamma! Thus does he live while regularly experiencing the inherent Danger of having a physical body. This is the experience of Danger. The experience of Danger is one of the 18 principal insights: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_18_Principal_Insights.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Rough_Realism.htm The rewards are: 1: Realistic sensation of acute urgency. 2: Disables risky reliance on what is neither safe nor lasting. 3: Complete cure of the naive intoxication of youth, beauty and success! Source (edited extract): The Numerical Discourses of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikya AN 10:60, AN V 108ff. Girimananda Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.060.than.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net The Experience of Danger! #115427 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Thu Jun 2, 2011 5:05 am Subject: Re: Lodewijk's story, was: Morality Dilema Dear Nina and Lodewijk So sorry to hear of your recent hospital / heart adventure. Takes its toll, for sure. Sounds as if you wisely took the opportunity to view it in the context of the dhamma (which it is, of course) and had some very useful discussions. I am particularly taken by your discussion about love, attachment and metta (you, Lodewijk, and Howard's posts). We can so often focus on the attachment in a relationship, when there are also so many opportunities for metta - interesting how a serious health issue or hospitalization is such an opportunity for metta, helpfulness and care. I found the same last summer when Glen was so ill in the hospital. While I too had my moments of trembling and concern for myself should things turn for the worse, but there were many moments that I could recognize as genuine concern for his welfare and condition and be able to help him in some way. So good to hear that you were both able to help each other with discussion and such good reminders. And of course, very happy to hear you say that he was fine in the end. As for the blood thinning medications - Glen will have to take them for the rest of his life too. And have the levels of the medication in his blood checked frequently (at first every few days, then weekly and now every 2 weeks). Seems like a small price to pay actually, although I know that it can be a nuisance and tiring too. My very best wishes to you both for continued stable health and your continued interest in the Dhamma. Ann --- #115428 From: Kevin F Date: Thu Jun 2, 2011 5:08 am Subject: Conditions talk: intro Hello all, Seeing the great importance in conditionality, I wish to start a series of threads to talk about the various conditions listed in the Abhidhamma. This post is the introductory post. Ajahn Sujin generally just talks about Dhammas, or realities. She does not (as far as I know), aside from her books, teach in a very structured, bit by bit way. Instead she simply discusses about Dhammas. This is good because it doesn't make people feel like they have to enter some "study course" to listen to her. I am not sure how much Ajahn talks about Conditionality, as I have only spent about 5 or 6 months attending her talks. Further, I haven't attended any of her Thai talks (as I don't speak it). But, from what I can see, while there me be some degree of talk about the 24 paccaya at the Foundation, I don't see it being a central point at least. Mostly Ajahn talks about Right View, and various aspects of nama and rupa, and their conditionality by way of talking about the six doors, and the nama that arise there. Inspired by her way of teaching, and also by the Patthana, I would like to start a series of threads here talking about the various paccaya listed in the Abhidhamma, in a very nonchalant, non-predetermined, and open way. I don't aspire to have any preconceived or mapped out pattern in bringing up different points about conditionality, but I do aspire to start new threads with short, simple quotes or statements about the various conditions to help bring them to light. I hope everybody joins in so we can all learn from each other. Metta to all my good friends at the list. Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." #115429 From: Kevin F Date: Thu Jun 2, 2011 5:23 am Subject: Conditionality talks: part 1 Hi all, In general we know that cittas and cetasikas always arise together. We know that cetasikas cannot arise without a citta, because it would be simply impossible. But how often do we really think about this? Any cetasika, such as lobha or dosa, arises with a citta. Without citta, the reality of a cetasika, whether it is lobha that attaches, or dosa which is averse, or vedana which feels, etc., cannot arise without a citta. It arises based on that citta. Cetasikas arise based on citta due to Dependence Condition. It depends on citta to occur, or "come into existence". Likewise cetasikas also arise with citta due to Conascence and Mutuality Condition. ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." #115430 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jun 2, 2011 7:09 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Enlightenment from the light side Hi Howard, (& Lukas) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > H: > When speaking of "modifiable," I meant only "liable to change," i.e., > open to change due to conditions. I was not speaking of any "author of > change". > ------------------------------------------------ S: Thanks for clarifying! As you wrote in another message: "There *are* conditions that lead to weakening clinging, but "just say 'no' is not among them.;-)" Metta Sarah ======= #115431 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jun 2, 2011 7:19 am Subject: Re: "how he is to rid himself of lust...." Dear Friends, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > 1) § 39. {Iti 2.12; Iti 33} <....> S: The following quote's typo corrected***: > S: From the commentary by Peter Masefield (p.380): "...You should become averse thereto (tattha nibbindatha): upon beholding with right insight the divers perils associated with that evil state after the method of "'It is evil in the sense of despicable, on account of its being absolutely inferior, unskilled in the sense of being generated through a lack of skilfulness, corrupting on account of its destroying the shining nauture and so on of the heart that is naturally shining and clear, productive of again-becoming on account of its repeatedly bringing into being that dukkha associated with becoming, stressful on account of its occurring by way of fevers that are accompanied by such same [types of] stress, has dukkha as its ripening on account of its ripening solely as ***dukkha***, leads to birth, old age and dying in the future on account of its bringing birth, old age and dying into being in times yet to come for an unlimited amount of time, [and] capable of shattering all well-being and happiness' and so on, and the advantages in its abandonment, you should become averse [thereto], enter upon aversion, [with respect thereto]; and, as you are developing vipassanaa upon becoming [so] averse, you should both rid yourselves of lust [therefor], and become liberated from that evil, via attainment of the ariyan path -...." .... Metta Sarah ====== #115432 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 2, 2011 7:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening Dear Ken O, --- On Mon, 30/5/11, Ken O wrote: >>Treatise of Paramis ><...> >S: All the paramis have to be developed with right understanding of the path, i.e right understanding of paramattha dhammas. Without this right understanding, they are not paramis. This is why those who have not heard the Buddha's Teachings cannot develop the paramis, however much metta, dana and so on is developed. > >KO: you forgotten something, only Buddhas can teach not self and paramattha dhamma and not others :-) . In times when Buddha or paccekabuddha not around, one learn the five precepts or those ascetics who believe in kamma as in the treatise. ... S: No, I haven't forgotten - that was just my point! Unless there has been the listening to the teachings, the paramis cannot be developed. If the bodhisatta had not heard the teachings from a Buddha before, he could not have begun to develop the paramis which would lead to becoming a Samma-Sambuddha in his final life. Without having heard the teachings, the precepts or other kinds of kusala that are developed are not the paramis. Metta Sarah ====== #115433 From: han tun Date: Thu Jun 2, 2011 7:54 am Subject: The meaning of Vigyo. Dear Sarah and Burmese Friends, I asked the meaning of "vigyo" from two sources: A venerable Burmese monk at SanghaOnLine, and a Burmese friend at Yangon. I have not yet received the answer from the ven Burmese monk, but I got it from my Burmese friend. My Burmese Friend got the answer from a Burmese Pali *student*. ------------------ "Vigyo" is a Burmese word, in Pali it is called "Viggaha" which means "Definition". examples: In the definition of the Buddha, "Bujjhatii'ti Buddho" One who has understood or Awakened is a Buddha. In the definition of Dhammika, "Dhammena caratii'ti Dhammiko" One who lives virtuously is a Righteous One. --------------------- Han: When I first checked up with the Dictionaries, I missed the Pali word "viggaha" because it has two "g" while "vigyo" has only one "g". Now, I check up with the Dictionaries again. In PTS Dictionary, "viggaha" has three meanings: (1) dispute, quarrel (2) taking up form (lit. seizing on) (3) resolution of words into their elements, analysis, separation of words. The Pali-Burmese Dictionary also gives the same meanings for "viggaha". This is just for your information. with metta, Han #115434 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 2, 2011 7:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What unwholesome quality is this? Hi Alex, --- On Tue, 31/5/11, truth_aerator wrote: >I am asking more about over tendency, an overall temperament (carita) of a person. ex: "there are six kinds of temperament, that is, greedy temperament, hating temperament, deluded temperament, faithful temperament, intelligent temperament, and speculative temperament." - VsM III,74 There is also some talk on them in netti, where it divides them in 2 (tanha or avijja), 3 (greedy, angry, deluded), or 4 (lusting, hating, view-dull, view-intelligent). .... S: Good points to raise. Aren't there all these temperaments arising in a day? Like in your example of the housework - attachment, aversion, ignorance and so on all day long. I liked this quote of K.Sujin's from the tape which Nina quoted recently: "Kh S: Usually there is thinking, more often than understanding. We listen to one word like carita, conduct, and then we think a lot. As to carita, is there no carita right now? Just understand whatever it is. We may be thinking about how many kinds of carita there are and that we have to understand them all, but actually, is there no carita right now? Is there at the moment of kusala citta not one of the caritas?" S: Carita or "type"/"character" can only be understood at the present moment when a dhamma such as anger or kindness arises. When there is understanding of the dhamma appearing, then it's clear what carita is. We can think about someone's "overall temperament" as you mention, but isn't the "nature" at that moment, one of thinking - usually with ignorance or attachment? See more on "carita" in "Useful Posts" if you have time. Metta Sarah ===== #115435 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 2, 2011 8:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The meaning of Vigyo. Dear Han & Burmese friends, --- On Thu, 2/6/11, han tun wrote: >"Vigyo" is a Burmese word, in Pali it is called "Viggaha" which means "Definition". examples: In the definition of the Buddha, "Bujjhatii'ti Buddho" One who has understood or Awakened is a Buddha. In the definition of Dhammika, "Dhammena caratii'ti Dhammiko" One who lives virtuously is a Righteous One. --------------------- S: This makes good sense now. Before, what we had was simply a definition of di.t.thadhammavedaniya-kamma. ... >Han: When I first checked up with the Dictionaries, I missed the Pali word "viggaha" because it has two "g" while "vigyo" has only one "g". Now, I check up with the Dictionaries again. In PTS Dictionary, "viggaha" has three meanings: (1) dispute, quarrel (2) taking up form (lit. seizing on) (3) resolution of words into their elements, analysis, separation of words. ... S: Thank you for this. So clearly the third meaning applies. I appreciate your research and clarification. Pls thank your Burmese friend as well. Metta Sarah p.s Before I meant "Kelvin and Suan", not "Kevin". Kelvin is Burmese (as I recall), Kevin is American! ======== The Pali-Burmese Dictionary also gives the same meanings for "viggaha". This is just for your information. with metta, Han #115436 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 2, 2011 8:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lodewijk's story, was: Morality Dilema Dear Ann, Op 2-jun-2011, om 7:05 heeft glenjohnann het volgende geschreven: > My very best wishes to you both for continued stable health and > your continued interest in the Dhamma. ------ N: Thank you for your good wishes. It is a test for patience. They made us wait from 9.30 to 2 for the blood check up and in the end could not make it. We had to go shopping! It is good for Glenn the checks became less frequent. Nina. #115437 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 2, 2011 8:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anger Hi Howard, Op 1-jun-2011, om 14:33 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > N: Is ignorance not the most dangerous of all defilements? Not > knowing at all what is kusala and what akusala? > --------------------------------------- > H: > Yes, it is. I was careful to write that I consider anger to be the > worst of the EMOTIONAL defilements. ------- N: I know what you mean. I was thinking about this and I would just like to add a few things. You think of the social effects. Dosa can be violence, so destructive. It is a terrible thing everybody can see in case of wars, persecution, destruction of human lives. But every defilement is accompanied by ignorance and this is a reality people generally do not see. It is like a hidden disease, like cancer. Thus, you can see how treacherous it is. Unnoticed, unknown in society. No emotional defilement without ignorance that is the real cause. Not only in the Abhidhamma, also in the suttas the Buddha goes to the root of all misery. What is the cause of all trouble in the world? He said: lobha, dosa and moha. Moha, ignorance, should not be forgotten. What is ignorance: not knowing the four noble Truths. People in general do not know the real cause of dukkha which is craving. Through the dhamma we learn about the real cause of all troubles and also about the way to overcome all dukkha: understanding of realities. ------- Nina. #115438 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 2, 2011 9:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions talk: intro Dear Kevin, Op 2-jun-2011, om 7:08 heeft Kevin F het volgende geschreven: > Ajahn Sujin generally just talks about Dhammas, or realities. She > does not (as > far as I know), aside from her books, teach in a very structured, > bit by bit > way. Instead she simply discusses about Dhammas. This is good > because it > doesn't make people feel like they have to enter some "study > course" to listen > to her. > > I am not sure how much Ajahn talks about Conditionality, as I have > only spent > about 5 or 6 months attending her talks. Further, I haven't > attended any of her > Thai talks (as I don't speak it). ------ N: The Thai talks and recordings are very structured. During the English discussions she let it depend on people's questions, so these are different from the Thai talks. Long ago she had a complete series recorded on the conditions. I used this for my book, the Conditionality of Life. Can this be of any help to you? I can send it, or you can read it on Zolag web. Just let me know. But you like to deal with this subject in an informal way. A good idea. Acharn always brings it back to this moment. She said that it is of no use to talk about various subjects if we do not understand the nature of citta now. You mentioned citta and cetasikas that condition one another. Sure, the same type of cetasika arising with kusala citta is quite different from it when it arises with akusala citta. Like feeling. Happy feeling arising with akusala citta rooted in lobha is restless, whereas when it arises with kusala citta it is peaceful, balanced. Other examples are viriya, energy, and concentration. How different they are when they are akusala or kusala. We can learn to understand their difference. It is dangerous not to know their difference. We may take wrong effort and wrong concentration for right effort, right concentration. Ignorance can lead us to the wrong Path. ------- Nina. #115439 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 2, 2011 9:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna- Bon-sin-san Dear Shalini, Han answered this question very well. Nina. Op 1-jun-2011, om 16:04 heeft Shalini S het volgende geschreven: > And it looks like L.S book does say that there are more than seven > rebirths for a bon-sin-san email. I have quoted the specific > paragraphs in this regard in the other email. > > I would love to hear your perspective/comments on this and if you > come across any other articles/books by the Sangha to clarify this. > #115440 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 2, 2011 9:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sotapanna can have many births? Dear Kevin, Op 1-jun-2011, om 20:08 heeft Kevin F het volgende geschreven: > As I understand it the Sotapanna has max 7 births left in the sense > sphere. Is > that correct? It was my understanding that births in the > suddhavasa planes > where only Anagami's are born don't count, because they are > different than > births in the sense sphere. There, I think, a sotapanna can be born > many, many > times (potentially) cycling through the higher levels of realms > there where the > lifespan becomes progressively longer and longer. I am not sure > about this > fact. ------- N: In some planes the lifespan lasts very long, true. But the number of rebirths does not exceed seven. Nina. #115441 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Jun 2, 2011 10:10 am Subject: Raport from Gdansk Hi friends, Adam has come to visit me in Gdansk, we now are sitting in Starbucks, drinking coffe. Though of the scarcity of our funds, we may visit England this summer. Purpose, meditation retreat and visiting Buddhist monastery. Have a nice day Lukas #115442 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 2, 2011 12:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Raport from Gdansk Dear Lukas, Op 2-jun-2011, om 12:10 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Adam has come to visit me in Gdansk, we now are sitting in > Starbucks, drinking coffe. Though of the scarcity of our funds, we > may visit England this summer. Purpose, meditation retreat and > visiting Buddhist monastery. ------ N: Maybe you can help people at the monastery. The opportunity to hear Kh Sujin is so rare, and not many are openminded to study the present reality. Let us know about your experiences. Nina. #115443 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 2, 2011 12:49 pm Subject: Discussions in Kaeng Kracan with Phil. Dear friends, Discussions in Kaeng Kracan with Phil. Kh S: Phil: ****** Nina. #115444 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Jun 2, 2011 1:36 pm Subject: Re: Raport from Gdansk Dear Nina, Sure, actually I give all my books you've send me to my Dhamma friends, so they know about Khun Sujin. Best wishes Lukas > > Adam has come to visit me in Gdansk, we now are sitting in > > Starbucks, drinking coffe. Though of the scarcity of our funds, we > > may visit England this summer. Purpose, meditation retreat and > > visiting Buddhist monastery. > ------ > N: Maybe you can help people at the monastery. The opportunity to > hear Kh Sujin is so rare, and not many are openminded to study the > present reality. Let us know about your experiences. #115445 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Jun 2, 2011 1:37 pm Subject: Re: Raport from Gdansk --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Nina, > Sure, actually I give all my books you've send me to my Dhamma friends, so they know about Khun Sujin. L: Sorry, meant gave :P best Lukas #115446 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Jun 2, 2011 3:01 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What unwholesome quality is this? truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, >S: Good points to raise. Aren't there all these temperaments >arising in a day? Like in your example of the housework - >attachment, aversion, ignorance and so on all day long. What it seems is that generally people have a default mode of behaviour, or their main hindrance. It is true that all worldlings have some traits of lobha/dosa/moha. Some people may have much more of one type vs another type of defilement arise. Some people may be mostly lustful and for them metta would be out of place. Some people may be hateful and asubha for them would be counterproductive, etc. Early commentators found it VERY important that the right person does the thing appropriate for them. Sometimes it makes all the difference between progress or no progress. > See more on "carita" in "Useful Posts" if you have time. OK. I am going away for a couple of days until monday. So maybe next week I'll check it out. with metta, Alex #115447 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Thu Jun 2, 2011 4:31 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Lodewijk's story, was: Morality Dilema glenjohnann Dear Nina and Lodewijk --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > N: Thank you for your good wishes. It is a test for patience. They > made us wait from 9.30 to 2 for the blood check up and in the end > could not make it. We had to go shopping! A: Waits like that are certainly are a test for patience! Also very tiring, no doubt. Good that you are able to attend to this together. I hope that you do not encounter delays like that one often - however, beyond our control in so many ways. I think of you both often. Ann #115448 From: Kevin F Date: Thu Jun 2, 2011 4:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sotapanna can have many births? Hi Nina, all, Nina: In some planes the lifespan lasts very long, true. But the number of rebirths does not exceed seven Kevin: This is from the Visuddhimagga: "By developing understanding of the third path he is called a nonreturner. According to the difference in his faculties he completes his course in one of five ways after he has left this world: he becomes 'one who attains nibbana early in his next existence' or 'one who attains nibbana more than half way through his next existence' or 'one who attains nibbana without prompting' or 'one who attains nibbana with prompting' or _'one who is going upstream bound for the Highest Gods' (see D.iii,237)_" ..."One who is going upstream bound for the Highest Gods passes on upwards from wherever he is reborn [in the Pure Abodes] to the Highest Gods' becoming and attains nibbana there." It's my understand that some Anagami are reborn in the one of the Pure Abodes but they are the kind are "going upstream". If they do not attain Arahatship in their first existence there, they are reborn in the next highest Suddhaavaasa, where they will. If they do not, they are born in the next highest etc., until they reach the highest and attain Arahatship, or are alternatively reborn in the highest plane again and again until they do. I can't really remember where I read this, but this passage from the Visuddhimagga seems to point to that. Maybe somebody else has some more info on this? Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." ________________________________ #115449 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 2, 2011 7:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sotapanna can have many births? Dear Kevin, yes, right. Not more than seven births pertains only to the sotaapanna, not to the other ariyans. Nina. Op 2-jun-2011, om 18:40 heeft Kevin F het volgende geschreven: > It's my understand that some Anagami are reborn in the one of the > Pure Abodes > but they are the kind are "going upstream". If they do not attain > Arahatship in > their first existence there, they are reborn in the next highest > Suddhaavaasa, > where they will. If they do not, they are born in the next highest > etc., until > they reach the highest and attain Arahatship, or are alternatively > reborn in the > highest plane again and again until they do. #115450 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Jun 2, 2011 9:46 pm Subject: What is The Deathless? Friends: What is the Deathless State? A certain not very well known Bhikkhu once asked the Blessed Buddha: Venerable Sir, the removal of Greed, Hate, and Ignorance, is it often said What, Venerable Sir, is the real meaning of that statement? This removal of Greed, Hate, & Ignorance is a description of the dimension of Nibbna The final elimination of the mental fermentations is spoken of just like that. Then that Bhikkhu asked the Blessed One: Venerable Sir, the Deathless, the Deathless, is it often said What, Sir, is this Deathless and what is the way leading the Deathless? The destruction of Greed, of Hate, and the destruction of Ignorance: This is called the Deathless. The Noble 8-fold Way is the way leading to this Deathless; that is: Right View (samm-ditthi) Right Motivation (samm-sankappa) Right Speech (samm-vc) Right Action (samm-kammanta) Right Livelihood (samm-jva) Right Effort (samm-vyma) Right Awareness (samm-sati) Right Concentration (samm-samdhi) <...> Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikya. Book [V:8] section 45:7 A certain Bhikkhu ... http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <....> #115451 From: han tun Date: Thu Jun 2, 2011 10:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sotapanna can have many births? Dear Kevin and Nina, I find in the CMA what Kevin found in the Visuddhimagga, about the five types of Anaagaami. On page 362 of the CMA: < The texts mention five types of non-returner: (1) One who, having been reborn spontaneously in a higher world, generates the final path before he has reached the midpoint of the life-span (antaraa-parinibbaayii). (2) One who generates the final path after passing the midpoint of the life-span, even when on the verge of death (upahacca-parinibbaayii). (3) One who attains the final path without exertion (asankhaara-parinibbaayii). (4) One who attains the final path with exertion (sasankhaara-parinibbaayii). (5) One who passes from one higher realm to another until he reaches the Akani.t.tha realm, the Highest Pure Abode, and there attains the final path (uddha.msoto akani.t.thagamii).> ---------- Nina, I have one question. It seems to me that anyone of the above five types will not be reborn in the Pure Abodes more than five times, even the Fifth type of anaagaami. Because in Puggalapa~n~natti Paa.li I find the clause "ariyamagga.m sa~njaneti upari.t.thimaana.m sa.myojanaana.m pahaanaaya" in all the five types. In the fifth type, even the realm is mentioned "akani.t.the ariyamagga.m sa~njaneti upari.t.thimaana.m sa.myojanaana.m pahaanaaya". 40. Katamo ca puggalo uddha.msoto akani.t.thagaamii? Idhekacco puggalo pa~ncanna.m orambhaagiyaana.m sa.myojanaana.m parikkhayaa opapaatiko hoti, tattha parinibbaayii anaavattidhammo tasmaa lokaa. So avihaa cuto atappa.m gacchati, atappaa cuto sudassa.m gacchati, sudassaa cuto sudassi.m gacchati, sudassiyaa cuto akani.t.tha.m gacchati; akani.t.the ariyamagga.m sa~njaneti upari.t.thimaana.m sa.myojanaana.m pahaanaaya; aya.m vuccati puggalo "uddha.msoto akani.t.thagaamii". I do not have the English translation of that Paa.li but in Burmese translation it says that the fifth type of anaagaami abandons the five higher fetters (uddhambhaagiya-sa.myojana) with ariya magga at the realm of akani.t.tha. So I do not think an anaagaami may be reborn *again and again* in the Pure Abode. It may be, at most, five. Am I correct? Respectfully, Han #115452 From: Vince Date: Thu Jun 2, 2011 10:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna- Bon-sin-san cerovzt@... Send Email Send Email Dear Nina you wrote: > N: I translated a Thai treatise: > < Issue of Analysis: Will the streamwinner, sot?panna, not be reborn > more than seven times, or more than that? [..] thanks so much for the work this summary. I have saved it to search more with all these names and sources. Very useful :) These days I was reading about one of the names you cited: Visakha the layman. He appears in a commentary of Culavedalla Sutta from Mahasi Sayadaw. Visakha was quite attached to lust when he was a sotapanna until he reached Anagami. At the Anagami state also started the complaints of his wife, forcing him to give an explanation. It shows about the previous situation of attachment. > N: Some medicines to make the blood thinner it is said the Yunnan Pu-erh tea is very good for that. Hope he is in good health again best, Vince. #115453 From: Vince Date: Thu Jun 2, 2011 10:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Arhatship, devas and brahmas, non-returners,and the place of virtue? cerovzt@... Send Email Send Email Dear Christine you wrote: > Thanks for the info. Is this what you were referring to? > THE STORY OF SETAKETU DEVA - THE FUTURE BUDDHA > http://www.thisismyanmar.com/nibbana/gotama/gotama01.htm#2 yes, you find it. Although the final birth is in the human realm. I had a doubt about this. It says: "Only the periods ranging from one hundred thousand years life-span to one hundred years' life-span are right for the coming of a Buddha. These are the periods in which birth, old age and death manifest themselves easily, in which the teaching on the three characteristics and the teaching as to how beings can be liberated from samsara as understood easily and in which beings are not so overwhelmed by the defilements of sensual pleasures." thanks. Vince. #115454 From: Vince Date: Thu Jun 2, 2011 10:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna cerovzt@... Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah you wrote: > S: No, only one sotapatti-magga citta ever... ok... so we think the same here > S:Remember the sutta about the 4 different kinds of > path, referring to quick and slow, easy and difficult as discussed before? >[...] > S: As mentioned, this only ever arises once on becoming a sotapanna. You may > be thinking of the phala citta (fruition consciousness) which may arise later > if jhanas were attained just prior to enlightenment. > S: Of course. Attachment arises for all but the arahat. When attachment > arises, no wholesome cittas or cetasikas (let alone jhana or lokuttara cittas) arise. > Hope this clarifies. yes, I understand you better now. However, if you think this about the difference of sotapatti-magga citta regarding fruition citta, then I cannot see from where you keep the notion of a perfect sila for sotapannas. I'm interested in what you think precisely because you are aware of that. If we think sila depends of freedom from defilements&attachment, and if we think the sotapanna is not established in fruition but still experience attachments and defilements, Where can we find some space in the equation to keep the idea of a perfect sila for sotapannas (not breaking precepts) which exceed the freedom from the "six great wrongs" cited inside Suttas?. ("...With his gaining of insight he abandons three states of mind, namely self-illusion, doubt, and indulgence in meaningless rites and rituals, should there be any. He is also fully freed from the four states of woe, and therefore, incapable of committing the six major wrongdoings" ** six great wrongs: murdering one's mother, murdering one's father, murdering an arahant (fully Awakened individual), wounding a Buddha, causing a schism in the Sangha, or choosing anyone other than a Buddha as one's foremost teacher.) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/khp/khp.1-9.than.html#fn-6-5 thanks for discussion :) Vince. #115455 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Jun 3, 2011 2:39 am Subject: Re: What unwholesome quality is this? kenhowardau Hi Robert E, ---------- <. . .> RE: What desire and aversion both have in common is that in the larger sense they both are opposite to detachment, equanimity and letting go. In order to reach a place of equanimity that is unshakeable, one must not only stop chasing after pleasant objects, one must also stop running away from unpleasant objects. <. . .> But everyday aversion is based on fear, desire for comfort, avoidance of things that are unpleasant for the self. Buddha does not run away from Mara, he confronts Mara and when he proves he is superior, Mara leaves in defeat, but he is not overcome by fear or disgust. <. . .> I think the magnetic charge makes the point really well. All you have to do to reverse the unbalanced attraction reaction that pulls two metal bars together, is to turn one around and that same charge turns into repulsion. It's the same imbalance, the same charge, the same force of desire to have things different from the way they are, rather than simply see what the arising object of the moment is with clarity. <. . .> --------- KH: It's good that we have the same understanding of good and evil. (Most other people I know have a different idea of it.) But even so, we still disagree on the ultimate nature of the world. And that's the most important part. I believe the texts to be talking about a momentary world in which absolute realities perform momentary functions. And they (the texts) mean "world" in the literal sense of there being only one world - the all, the loka. So any conventional definition of you or me, or of a Buddha dealing with Mara (etc), is out of the question (outside the loka). Ken H #115456 From: Kevin F Date: Fri Jun 3, 2011 3:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sotapanna can have many births? Hi Nina, Nina: In some planes the lifespan lasts very long, true. But the number of rebirths does not exceed seven. Kevin: Right, excluding births in the Pure Abodes that is (once Anagami is finally reached). So, technically, it seems a Sotapanna could have 12 births if there are five in the Pure Abodes (still not clear if more than 5 births are possible in the Pure Abodes for an Anagami), if you includes births there. Not including births there, 7. Nevertheless, once one is a Sotapanna - in fact, once one is a cuula-sotapanna- ones destiny is fixed, and you will attain final nibbana within a few lifetimes and only be reborn in the higher realms until then, so it doesn't really matter. Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." #115457 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Jun 3, 2011 5:22 am Subject: Re: What unwholesome quality is this? Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Robert E, > > ---------- > <. . .> > RE: What desire and aversion both have in common is that in the larger sense they both are opposite to detachment, equanimity and letting go. In order to reach a place of equanimity that is unshakeable, one must not only stop chasing after pleasant objects, one must also stop running away from unpleasant objects. > <. . .> > But everyday aversion is based on fear, desire for comfort, avoidance of things that are unpleasant for the self. Buddha does not run away > from Mara, he confronts Mara and when he proves he is superior, Mara leaves in defeat, but he is not overcome by fear or disgust. > <. . .> > I think the magnetic charge makes the point really well. All you have to do to reverse the unbalanced attraction reaction that pulls two metal bars together, is to turn one around and that same charge turns into repulsion. It's the same imbalance, the same charge, the same force of desire to have things different from the way they are, rather than simply see what the arising object of the moment is with clarity. > <. . .> > --------- > > KH: It's good that we have the same understanding of good and evil. (Most other people I know have a different idea of it.) But even so, we still disagree on the ultimate nature of the world. And that's the most important part. > > I believe the texts to be talking about a momentary world in which absolute realities perform momentary functions. And they (the texts) mean "world" in the literal sense of there being only one world - the all, the loka. So any conventional definition of you or me, or of a Buddha dealing with Mara (etc), is out of the question (outside the loka). You don't seem interested in the real "main point" which is what is a defilement and what promotes detachment. Aversion and desire are both imbalances which are opposed to detachment and equanimity. Yet you ignored this entire discussion, which is what this thread is about. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = #115458 From: Kevin F Date: Fri Jun 3, 2011 5:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions talk: intro Dear Nina, Nina: N: The Thai talks and recordings are very structured. During the English discussions she let it depend on people's questions, so these are different from the Thai talks. Long ago she had a complete series recorded on the conditions. I used this for my book, the Conditionality of Life. Can this be of any help to you? I can send it, or you can read it on Zolag web. Just let me know. Kevin: Thank you Nina. That is extremely kind of you. But I already have it on PDF :) Nina, seriously, it is one of the best books I have ever read. Thanks again, very much. Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." ________________________________ From: Nina van Gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, June 2, 2011 5:16:26 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions talk: intro Dear Kevin, Op 2-jun-2011, om 7:08 heeft Kevin F het volgende geschreven: > Ajahn Sujin generally just talks about Dhammas, or realities. She > does not (as > far as I know), aside from her books, teach in a very structured, > bit by bit > way. Instead she simply discusses about Dhammas. This is good > because it > doesn't make people feel like they have to enter some "study > course" to listen > to her. > > I am not sure how much Ajahn talks about Conditionality, as I have > only spent > about 5 or 6 months attending her talks. Further, I haven't > attended any of her > Thai talks (as I don't speak it). ------ N: The Thai talks and recordings are very structured. During the English discussions she let it depend on people's questions, so these are different from the Thai talks. Long ago she had a complete series recorded on the conditions. I used this for my book, the Conditionality of Life. Can this be of any help to you? I can send it, or you can read it on Zolag web. Just let me know. But you like to deal with this subject in an informal way. A good idea. Acharn always brings it back to this moment. She said that it is of no use to talk about various subjects if we do not understand the nature of citta now. You mentioned citta and cetasikas that condition one another. Sure, the same type of cetasika arising with kusala citta is quite different from it when it arises with akusala citta. Like feeling. Happy feeling arising with akusala citta rooted in lobha is restless, whereas when it arises with kusala citta it is peaceful, balanced. Other examples are viriya, energy, and concentration. How different they are when they are akusala or kusala. We can learn to understand their difference. It is dangerous not to know their difference. We may take wrong effort and wrong concentration for right effort, right concentration. Ignorance can lead us to the wrong Path. ------- Nina. #115459 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 3, 2011 7:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sotapanna can have many births? Dear Han and Kevin, Yes, this is quite correct. I have seen these texts. As I said before, just the sotaapanna will not exceed seven births, as the texts say. It is different for the anaagaami. Han: So I do not think an anaagaami may be reborn *again and again* in the Pure Abode. It may be, at most, five. N: As you quote: <(5) One who passes from one higher realm to another until he reaches the Akani.t.tha realm, the Highest Pure Abode, and there attains the final path (uddha.msoto akani.t.thagamii).> So it seems that he is not reborn in the Pure Abode, only once, but I do not know the details. Nina. Op 3-jun-2011, om 0:42 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I find in the CMA what Kevin found in the Visuddhimagga, about the > five types of Anaagaami. #115460 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 3, 2011 8:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna- Bon-sin-san Dear Vince, Thank you for your good wishes. Teas are always good, I think. Nina. Op 3-jun-2011, om 0:54 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > Some medicines to make the blood thinner > it is said the Yunnan Pu-erh tea is very good for that. > Hope he is in good health again #115461 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 3, 2011 8:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Lodewijk's story, was: Morality Dilema Dear Nina (& Ann), --- On Tue, 31/5/11, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >N: ...Usually we remember superficial things in a day, but there can be conditions for remembering Dhamma. .... S: True, true! ... >We had to go so quickly to the hospital that I had no time to pack any books. And I thought we would be back after an hour. One never knows! I had to laugh when remembering that the scenery changes all the time, but that visible object is just visible object. ... S: :-) We had a similar experience a few years ago when I was rushed to hospital by ambulance from the beach in Australia, only to sit around for several hours waiting to see the doctor - particularly busy that Sunday in Accident & Emergency. I was still in my swim-suit with lots of blood on my head from a gash, a bag of ice and one wet towel! Shivering with nothing to read and not even my i-pod to listen to Dhamma on!! Fortunately, Jon was with me and helped get cups of tea. We should be happy - when I was eventually given the stitches (or rather staples in this case), I was told that any life-threatening emergencies are given priority and rushed straight in. Yes, just visible object no matter what the circumstances! Always back to this moment. The long stories created are just long stories on account of what is experienced through the senses. (Ann, nice to read your input. I know you must have a lot of experience developing patience whilst sitting around in hospitals!) Metta Sarah ======= #115462 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 3, 2011 8:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Arhatship, devas and brahmas, non-returners,and the place of virtue? Dear Vince, Op 3-jun-2011, om 0:54 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > I had a > doubt about this. > It says: > > "Only the periods ranging from one hundred thousand years life-span > to one > hundred years' life-span are right for the coming of a Buddha. > These are the > periods in which birth, old age and death manifest themselves > easily, in which > the teaching on the three characteristics and the teaching as to > how beings can > be liberated from samsara as understood easily and in which beings > are not so > overwhelmed by the defilements of sensual pleasures." ------ N: I also read this. When a lifespan is very long one may forget that one has to die, and then there is no reminder about the shortness of life. When life lasts very long there is more opportunity to be infatuated with all the pleasant things of life. No death appearing that makes an end to all pleasures. Nina. #115463 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 3, 2011 8:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna- Bon-sin-san Dear Han, Shalini, Dieter, Nina & all, --- On Sun, 29/5/11, han tun wrote: >In the Manuals of Buddhism by Ledi Sayadaw, under Bodhipakkhiya Dipanii, we the following text only. >'Bon-sin-san'[7] Sotapannas, like Visakha and Anathapindika, who are infinitely numerous among humans, devas, and Brahmas, are beings who have obtained release from the state of sinking and drifting in the great whirlpool of samsara (round of rebirths) from the moment sakkaya-ditthi was uprooted. They are beings who have attained the first stage of Nibbana called sa-upadisesa-nibbana (Nibbana with the five constituent groups of existence remaining). Although they are liable to wander in the round of rebirths for many more lives and many more world-cycles, they are no longer worldly beings. Having become 'bon-sin-san' ariyas (noble ones), they are beings of the lokuttara (supramundane sphere). .... S: Here it sounds as though the "bon-sin-san" is referring to the sattakkhattuparama sotapanna (the one reborn 7 times at most), the one with the weakest understanding of the sotapannas, as described here in the Thai Treatise which Nina translated and presented, here from the commentary to the Puggalapannatti: >N: "Some sotapannas are inclined to life in the cycle, they enjoy the process of existence and they traverse different lives. The following people had this inclination: Anathapindika the layfollower Visakha Cularatha deva Maharatha deva Anekavanna deva Sakka, King of the devas Nagadatta deva "All these people had attachment to life in the cycle of birth and death. They were born in the six classes of deva worlds, beginning with the lowest class, and they purified their minds in those deva worlds. They were established in the plane of akanittha 4 and then attained parinibbana. ... The sotapannas who were reborn in the human world and were there reborn again, were reborn not more than seven times and then attained arahatship. The sotapannas who were reborn in the deva worlds were there reborn again, but they were reborn not more than seven times and then attained arahatship. ......" Metta Sarah ======= #115464 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 3, 2011 9:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions talk: intro Dear Kevin, Thanks for your encouraging words. Lodewijk said that he send the book long ago to your parent's address. Nina. Op 3-jun-2011, om 7:49 heeft Kevin F het volgende geschreven: > Thank you Nina. That is extremely kind of you. But I already have it > on PDF :) > > Nina, seriously, it is one of the best books I have ever read. #115465 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 3, 2011 9:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Lodewijk's story, was: Morality Dilema Dear Sarah and Ann, Op 3-jun-2011, om 10:06 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Yes, just visible object no matter what the circumstances! Always > back to this moment. The long stories created are just long stories > on account of what is experienced through the senses. > > (Ann, nice to read your input. I know you must have a lot of > experience developing patience whilst sitting around in hospitals!) ------- N: we cannot hear this enough: just visible object, and then we think of long stories. Sometimes there are condiitons to remember this. We never know what emergency we will be in. No time to prepare! Yes, I was also glad to hear from Ann's experience with hospitals. Nina. #115466 From: Kevin F Date: Fri Jun 3, 2011 3:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions talk: intro Hello Nina, Nina: Lodewijk said that he send the book long ago to your parent's address. Kevin: Interesting. I never received the book. I did receive your book Rupa long ago though. Maybe Lodewijk is thinking of that? I hope everyone is feeling well. Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." ________________________________ #115467 From: Kevin F Date: Fri Jun 3, 2011 3:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Lodewijk's story, was: Morality Dilema Dear Nina, all, Nina: we cannot hear this enough: just visible object, and then we think of long stories. Sometimes there are condiitons to remember this. We never know what emergency we will be in. No time to prepare! Kevin: Never a person in any hospital. Never time to prepare for any nama or rupa that arises. In your living room is just the same-- we are not prepared for what visible object will arise because we cannot know. For example, we do not know what visible objects will arise on the T.V. Only namas and rupas arising and falling, nothing else in any world, anywhere. Pulled along by the 24 paccaya being do not see. Just now, no being or person here, no reality aside from what is currently experienced, no connection of 'self' between the past and the present reality, or the present and the future realities that will arise -- a connection yes, but no connection of 'self', just conditions that connect.. Please send my metta to Lodewijk. Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." #115468 From: "connie" Date: Fri Jun 3, 2011 4:41 pm Subject: Sangiitisutta 8.2-3 nichiconn dear friends, CSCD < Date: Fri Jun 3, 2011 4:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiitisutta 8.2-3 Hi Connie: Connie: Olds [ 8.2 ] Eight Consummates:[ 8.2 ] High view, high principles, high speech, high works, high lifestyle, high self-control, high satisfactions, high getting high. Kevin: Not a good translation for the hippies. Any one who I went to _high_ - school with would surely laugh as I did, being on old ex pot- smoker myself. The old boy certainly tried though, surely a great man. You have to respect the one who takes pains to translate, for it is not an easy task. We are all indebted to them in a way. Sadhu for posting these. Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." #115470 From: Kevin F Date: Fri Jun 3, 2011 5:26 pm Subject: Conditionality talks 2 Hello all, A couple of excerpts from Nina's book: "As to the third class, at the moment of birth the paṭisandhi-citta and the hadaya-vatthu (heart-base) are mutually related to one another by way of dependence. In the planes where there are five khandhas, nāma and rūpa, kamma produces the rūpa which is heart-base at the same time as the paṭisandhi-citta which arises at the heart-base. The paṭisandhi-citta and the heart-base support each other and they cannot arise without each other. They are also related by way of..." "As we have seen, only at the moment of birth the heart-base arises together with the paṭisandhi-citta and serves as its base" .... Kevin: No person. At the exact moment of birth the heart base is conditioned by kamma and serves as the base for the first citta. The citta cannot arise without this base. They support each other and cannot arise without each other. They are related by Dependence Condition! How utterly conditioned and also intertwined are these nama and rupa?! It is not a self, not a person, just a process... Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." #115471 From: han tun Date: Fri Jun 3, 2011 11:50 pm Subject: Re: A Sotapanna- Bon-sin-san Dear Sarah (Shalini, Dieter, Nina & Burmese friends), The text from Bodhipakkhiya Dipanii by Ledi Sayadaw: < 'Bon-sin-san'[7] Sotapannas, like Visakha and Anathapindika, who are infinitely numerous among humans, devas, and Brahmas, are beings who have obtained release from the state of sinking and drifting in the great whirlpool of samsara (round of rebirths) from the moment sakkaya-ditthi was uprooted. They are beings who have attained the first stage of Nibbana called sa-upadisesa-nibbana (Nibbana with the five constituent groups of existence remaining). Although they are liable to wander in the round of rebirths for many more lives and many more world-cycles, they are no longer worldly beings. Having become 'bon-sin-san' ariyas (noble ones), they are beings of the lokuttara (supramundane sphere).> [Sarah] Here it sounds as though the "bon-sin-san" is referring to the sattakkhattuparama sotapanna (the one reborn 7 times at most), the one with the weakest understanding of the sotapannas, as described here in the Thai Treatise which Nina translated and presented, here from the commentary to the Puggalapannatti: --------------------- [Han] No, Sarah, Ledi Sayadaw referred to exactly what he had written, i.e., 'Bon-sin-san' Sotaapannas. Among Burmese Sayadaws, there is a separate type of sotaapanna called Bon-sin-san Sotaapanna (different from sattakkhattuparama sotaapanna, kolankola sotaapanna, and ekabjin sotaapanna). I have found it written in at least two Burmese books that I have at hand. If I were in Rangoon I would be able to quote more. (1) "Sammaa-magga"nga-pa~nha" written by Aggamahaapa.n.dita Ashin Obhaasaabhiva.msa. (2) Abhidhammahattha Sangaha .Tiikaa ("Thingyo-bhaa-saa .Tiikaa" in Burmese) written by Aggamahaapa.n.dita Ashin Janakaabhiva.msa (Mahaa-gandhaaron Sayadaw). In both of these books, Bon-sin-san sotaapannas are mentioned. In the first book, it is written that Bon-sin-san sotaapannas are the ones who are reborn in human, deva and brahma worlds (except five suddhaavaasa realms) for several times, like Anaathapindika and lay-follower Visakha. The other three sotaapannas are the ones who are reborn in human and deva worlds. [For Burmese friends, it is on page 231 of the book.] In the second book, it is written that there are several Bon-sin-san sotaapannas, such as Sakka the deva-king, who is now in Taavati.msa, and who will "bon-sin-san", i.e., will go up to higher and higher realms and will finally attain parinibbaana. Sayadaw added that sattakkhattuparama sotaapanna and kolankola sotaapanna are the ones who are reborn in human and deva worlds, and ekabjin sotaapanna is the one who is reborn in human world. But Bon-sin-san sotaapannas can go upto Brahma world. [For Burmese friends, it is on page 721 of the book.] Kind regards, Han #115472 From: han tun Date: Sat Jun 4, 2011 12:28 am Subject: Correction: Re: A Sotapanna- Bon-sin-san Dear Sarah (Shalini, Dieter, Nina & Burmese friends), In my last post I had written: Among Burmese Sayadaws, there is a separate type of sotaapanna called Bon-sin-san Sotaapanna (different from sattakkhattuparama sotaapanna, kolankola sotaapanna, and ekabjin sotaapanna). Please read it as: Among the writings by Burmese Sayadaws, there is a separate type of sotaapanna called Bon-sin-san Sotaapanna (different from sattakkhattuparama sotaapanna, kolankola sotaapanna, and ekabjin sotaapanna). Kind redgards, Han #115473 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 4, 2011 4:34 am Subject: Sangiitisutta, book of Eights, sutta 2 and 3. Dear friends, DN.33.3.1(2) 'Eight right factors (sammattaa): right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. A.t.tha sammattaa - sammaadi.t.thi, sammaasa'nkappo, sammaavaacaa, sammaakammanto, sammaaaajiivo, sammaavaayaamo, sammaasati, sammaasamaadhi. ----------- When the noble eightfold Path which leads to the end of rebirth is being developed the object of pa is a nma or rpa which appears at the present moment. Through mindfulness of realities appearing in our daily life samm-di.t.thi of the eightfold Path can come to see them as they are, as non-self. Sammaa-sankappa, right thinking, is vitakka cetasika which is sobhana. When right thinking is a factor of the noble eightfold Path it has to accompany right understanding, pa. Right thinking touches the nma or rpa which appears so that pa can understand it as it is. There are three cetasikas which are sla, namely: right speech, right action and right livelihood. They are actually the three abstinences or virati cetasikas which are: abstinence from wrong speech (vacduccarita virati) abstinence from wrong action (kyaduccarita virati) abstinence from wrong livelihood (jvaduccarita virati) They may, one at a time, accompany kusala citta when the occasion arises. They do not accompany each kusala citta. While we abstain from wrong action or speech there can be awareness and right understanding of nma and rpa. Pa can realize that the cetasika which abstains from akusala is non-self, that it arises because of its appropriate conditions. The three abstinences which accompany cittas of the sense-sphere, kmvacara cittas, arise only one at a time. When abstinence of wrong speech arises, there cannot be at the same time abstinence from wrong action. However, when lokuttara citta arises all three abstinences accompany the lokuttara citta and then nibbna is the object. The abstinences which are lokuttara are the right speech, the right action and the right livelihood of the supramundane eightfold Path. They fulfill their function of path-factors by eradicating the conditions for wrong speech, wrong action and wrong livelihood. Thus, the object of the abstinences which are lokuttara is different from the object of the abstinences which accompany cittas of the sense- sphere. The path-consciousness, magga-citta, eradicates the tendencies to evil conduct subsequently at the stages of enlightenment. The magga-citta (path-consciousness) as well as the phala-citta (fruition-consciousness), which is the result of the magga-citta and immediately succeeds it in the same process, are accompanied by all three abstinences. Right action, right speech and right livelihood do not accompany the mah-kiriyacitta of the arahat. He has eradicated all akusala and therefore there is no need for him to abstain from akusala. Neither do the three abstinences accompany jhnacitta since the jhnacitta is remote from sense impressions and there is thus no opportunity to abstain from the defilements connected with sense impressions. Samm-vyma or right effort is another factor of the right path. It is viriya cetasika (energy or effort) which strengthens and supports the accompanying dhammas so that they are intent on kusala. When it accompanies right understanding of the noble eightfold Path it is energy and courage to persevere being aware of nma and rpa which appear one at a time through the six doorways. At the moment of mindfulness of nma and rpa, right effort has arisen already because of conditions and it performs its function; we do not need to think of making an effort. When we think, I can exert effort, I can strive, with an idea of self who can do so, akusala citta has arisen with clinging to reach the goal. Wrong effort may arise without our noticing it. Right effort, when it accompanies right understanding, supports the other factors of the eightfold Path, but we should remember that it arises because of its own conditions, that it is non- self. Sati of the level of satipa.t.thna is right mindfulness of the nma or rpa which appears so that understanding of that reality as non- self can be developed. Mindfulness does not last, it arises just for a moment, but it can be accumulated. Mindfulness and right understanding cannot arise without the appropriate conditions: listening to the teachings as explained by the right friend in Dhamma, considering what one has heard and applying it in daily life. Moreover, all wholesome qualities developed together with satipa.t.thna are supportive conditions for pa. When we learn to be less selfish and develop kindness, thoughtfulness and patience, these qualities support pa to become detached from the idea of self. Sati that accompanies right understanding of the eightfold Path is a factor of the noble eightfold Path. Samm-samdhi, right concentration, is another path-factor accompanying sobhana citta. Kusala citta which is intent on dna, sla or bhvan is accompanied by right concentration which conditions the citta and accompanying cetasikas to focus on an object in the wholesome way. Right concentration which is a factor of the noble eightfold Path has to accompany right understanding of the eightfold Path. ------- Sutta 3: DN.33.3.1(3) 'Eight persons worthy of offerings: *1113 the Stream- Winner and one who has practised to gain the fruit of Stream-Entry, the Once-Returner ..., the Non-Returner ..., the Arahant and one who has worked to gain the fruit of Arahantship. ------- N: The eight persons or four pairs of persons actually stand for the magga-cittas and phala-cittas of the four stages of enlightenment. Person is conventional truth, and in reality there are lokuttara kusala citta and the accompanying cetasikas which realize the four noble truths at enlightenment and there are lokuttara vipaakacittas which are the results of the magga-cittas. The magga-citta of each of these stages is succeeded immediately by the phala-citta which is lokuttara vipaakacitta. ****** Nina. #115474 From: Shalini S Date: Sat Jun 4, 2011 2:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna- Bon-sin-san shalnew Thanks so much for this information. I am very gladdenned to be interacting with people who have access to Burmese books and Thai books and who can read and understand them. They are all such a treasure of Dhamma knowledge. Bahusacca is one of the seven saDhammas , meaning "highly learned by means of reading and experience". I find in this group, a lot of Bahusacca Sangha and I am glad I came across this group. Thanks again, much metta, Shalini --- On Fri, 6/3/11, han tun wrote: <...> [Han] No, Sarah, Ledi Sayadaw referred to exactly what he had written, i.e., 'Bon-sin-san' Sotaapannas. Among Burmese Sayadaws, there is a separate type of sotaapanna called Bon-sin-san Sotaapanna (different from sattakkhattuparama sotaapanna, kolankola sotaapanna, and ekabíjin sotaapanna). I have found it written in at least two Burmese books that I have at hand. If I were in Rangoon I would be able to quote more. (1) "Sammaa-magga"nga-pa~nha" written by Aggamahaapa.n.dita Ashin Obhaasaabhiva.msa. (2) Abhidhammahattha Sangaha .Tiikaa ("Thingyo-bhaa-saa .Tiikaa" in Burmese) written by Aggamahaapa.n.dita Ashin Janakaabhiva.msa (Mahaa-gandhaaron Sayadaw). In both of these books, Bon-sin-san sotaapannas are mentioned. In the first book, it is written that Bon-sin-san sotaapannas are the ones who are reborn in human, deva and brahma worlds (except five suddhaavaasa realms) for several times, like Anaathapindika and lay-follower Visakha. The other three sotaapannas are the ones who are reborn in human and deva worlds. [For Burmese friends, it is on page 231 of the book.] In the second book, it is written that there are several Bon-sin-san sotaapannas, such as Sakka the deva-king, who is now in Taavati.msa, and who will "bon-sin-san", i.e., will go up to higher and higher realms and will finally attain parinibbaana. Sayadaw added that sattakkhattuparama sotaapanna and kolankola sotaapanna are the ones who are reborn in human and deva worlds, and ekabíjin sotaapanna is the one who is reborn in human world. But Bon-sin-san sotaapannas can go upto Brahma world. [For Burmese friends, it is on page 721 of the book.] <...> #115475 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2011 12:30 am Subject: Calmed... Friends: One becomes Calmed by Stilling all Agitation! The brahmin M�gan diya asked the Buddha about how to become calmed: Not dwelling in the past, stilled in the present, one prefers no kind of future! Without irritation, without agitation, without regrets, without worry, neither boasting, nor proud, but humble and modest, one is indeed a restrained sage... Withdrawn, not opposed to anything, not wanting anything, all unconcerned, aloof, gentle, independent, for such one there exists neither craving or fear for any kind of existence, nor craving or fear for any form of non-existence... Such calmed one is indifferent to sense pleasures, detached, not clinging to any kind of property! For him there is nothing more to take up or lay down! For whatever others might accuse him, he remains tranquil and not agitated! Neither opposing anything, nor attracted to anything, with nothing of his own, not perturbed by what does not exist, such tranquil one is truly calmed! Sutta-Nip�ta 849-861 Edited excerpt. <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Sam�hita _/\_ * <...> #115476 From: "Shalini" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2011 5:02 am Subject: Re: A Study of Sukkhavipassaka in Pāli Buddhism shalnew Hi Vince, I am not able to access the link http://xrl.in/8nuc. Can you please give me an alternate link if present or the document attachment. I am very much interested in reading the thesis. Thanks Shalini --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > > > A very interesting .pdf with lots of references and comments: > > "A Study of Sukkhavipassaka in Pali Buddhism", Tzungkuen Wen > http://xrl.in/8nuc > > "This thesis aims to explore the doctrine of sukkhavipassaka ("dry-insight practitioner") in Pali > Buddhism. The focus of the thesis is to utilize the canonical and commentarial sources of the various > Buddhist schools to evaluate the position of this doctrine in the history of early Buddhism" > > site: http://tkwen.theravada-chinese.org/ > > > Vince. > #115477 From: "azita" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2011 7:47 am Subject: Re: view gazita2002 hallo Ken O, thank you, and I dont have this book, would like to have it so I will write you offline with my details. Sorry for the delay in answering you, issues with family, you know the story, - the dusty and crowded home life - patience, courage and good cheer, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Azita > > Yes we have different views for different khandhas in separate mind continuum. > Please read the commentary to The Discourse on the Root Of Existence which deal > with your these four types of views (sakkaya ditthi) thoroughly. > > > if you dont have the book and wish to have the book, please tell me (if you wish > to give your address off list) I send you the book tranlsated by B Bodhi > > Ken O #115478 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2011 10:02 am Subject: Leaving for a retreat Hi Dhamma friends, Today at 6 p.m(in 6 hours) I am leaving to warsaw for one day sitting course with a teacher. Adam's staying at my apartment. If anyone wants to call me before I leave that would be grate. I am on my phone. recently Sarah called encouraging me that there is no difference where we are, a retreat or at home, the present moments is always there. best wishes Lukas P.s Also I can be able on skype. My nickname is szmicio21. #115479 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 4, 2011 7:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Leaving for a retreat Hi, Lukas (and Sarah) - In a message dated 6/4/2011 6:02:45 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, szmicio@... writes: Hi Dhamma friends, Today at 6 p.m(in 6 hours) I am leaving to warsaw for one day sitting course with a teacher. Adam's staying at my apartment. If anyone wants to call me before I leave that would be grate. I am on my phone. ------------------------------------------------ H: Have a pleasant and fruitful time, Lukas. :-) ------------------------------------------------ recently Sarah called encouraging me that there is no difference where we are, a retreat or at home, the present moments is always there. ------------------------------------------------ H: They certainly are always there, though, for most of us, without clarity, peace, and mindfulness. An attentive, balanced mind state in the midst of a plethora of sensory inputs is quite advanced. (Good going, Sarah! ) --------------------------------------------- best wishes Lukas =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #115480 From: Vince Date: Sat Jun 4, 2011 11:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Study of Sukkhavipassaka in Pāli Buddhism cerovzt@... Send Email Send Email Hi Shalini, here there is: http://tkwen.theravada-chinese.org/A%20Study%20of%20Sukkihavipassaka%20in%20Pali\ %20Buddhism_final.pdf best, > > Hi Vince, > I am not able to access the link http://xrl.in/8nuc. Can you please give me #115481 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2011 1:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Leaving for a retreat Dear Howard > Today at 6 p.m(in 6 hours) I am leaving to warsaw for one day sitting > course with a teacher. Adam's staying at my apartment. If anyone wants to call > me before I leave that would be grate. I am on my phone. > ------------------------------------------------ > H: > Have a pleasant and fruitful time, Lukas. :-) > ------------------------------------------------ L: Thank you Howard, Have a nice day Lukas P.s Bhante Samahita wrote today: #115482 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 4, 2011 1:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Leaving for a retreat Dear Lukas, Have a good retreat. Op 4-jun-2011, om 15:48 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > The brahmin M�gandiya > asked the Buddha about how to > become calmed: > "Not dwelling in the past, stilled in the present, one prefers no > kind of future! -------- N: Exactly, there is only the present moment to know and understand. That leads to true calm. Only naama and ruupa appearing at this moment. No matter where one is, what one is doing. ------ > > Text: Without irritation, without agitation, without regrets, > without worry, > neither boasting, nor proud, but humble and modest, one is indeed a > restrained sage... ----- N: This refers to the arahat. The way leading to it is understanding this very moment, not doing anything else. Nina. #115483 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 4, 2011 2:33 pm Subject: Discussions with Phil at Kaeng Kracan, continuation. Dear friends, Kh S: Usually people think about terms like satipa.t.thaana, but now each reality is pa.t.thaana [N: establishment or foundation of mindfulness], it is the object when sati arises. When sati does not arise how can it be the object of understanding? Phil: A concept cannot be the object of sati? Kh S: A concept is not a reality. Phil: All day long we think about concepts. Kh S: Thinking is not self, there are conditions to think, just as in the case of seeing, there are conditions to see. Before one can become a sotaapanna there must be less doubt about realities, more direct understanding of the reality which appears. No selection. Phil: I have hiri and ottappa (shame and fear of blame) with regard to not knowing realities. Kh S: at the moment of understanding there are hiri and ottappa and there is no need to pinpoint when and where. When they do not appear how can one know that it is wat we call hiri or ottappa? Each one of these is different. Ph: I consider them good friends that keep me out of trouble. Hiri seems to be defined in terms of [abstention from evil because of] our reputation, of what people think of us, or what kind of family we come from. It seems so wrapt up in a self or in stories. Kh S: People have different conditions to think in this way or that way. Ph: So, it can be helpful to think about self. Kh S: There is no need to say whether it is helpful or not, whether hiri and ottappa arise or not depends on conditions. When coming here is there no hiri and ottappa? They are there, without us knowing it. So they are different from hiri and ottappa in wordly sense. Phil: I appreciate hiri and ottappa. Kh S: You appreciate hiri and ottappa which bring you here? Phil: I came here completely with the idea of self. Ann: When we stress the present moment, the understanding of the present moment as leading to more kusala, it is very easy to lose track of the goal. Kh S: When pa~n~naa sees reality as it is, the understanding is clearer than when there is thinking about it, such as thinking whether I have hiri or ottappa. At that moment it is seen as a reality. By understanding realities there are conditions for more kusala. Ph: I started reading the book on Perfections again and through that book I started to listen again to you. Kh S: What you take for I is pa~n~naa. The teachings deal with realities in daily life each moment so that one will understand their true nature as not self. Each word of the teachings should be considered very deeply. ******** Nina. #115484 From: "G." Date: Sat Jun 4, 2011 3:31 pm Subject: Re: Ajahn Naeb gleblanc108 Hello, I am trying to find information on Ajahn Naeb's lineage in Burma and also on her approach to Vipassana. Are their other teaches that describe Vipassana practice in a similar way? Thank you Greg #115485 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2011 10:36 pm Subject: The Deepest Calm! Friends: The Deepest Tranquilization is that of Greed, Hate & Ignorance! The Blessed Buddha once said: Formerly, when that person was still ignorant, then he was possessed & obsessed by sexual & sensual greed, lust, desire, yearning, envy, jealousy, and miserliness... He was obsessed & possessed by hate, anger, ill-will, irritation and stubbornness... He was obsessed and possessed by ignorance, doubt, delusion & plain foolishness... These evils are now overcome by him, eradicated, like a slashed & uprooted tree, completely destroyed, and therefore unable to sprout into existence ever again! Therefore such Bhikkhu, thus endowed, is indeed enriched by the highest Calm! This tranquillization is his unshakable foundation! Since this, friends, is the very highest and most precious: The Tranquillization of Greed, Hate, and Ignorance!!! <....> Source Text (extract): Majjhima Nik�ya 140: Analysis of the Elements: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.140.than.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Sam�hita _/\_ * <....> #115486 From: Kevin F Date: Sun Jun 5, 2011 5:33 am Subject: Conditionality talks part 3 From Nina's book: "The Commentary defines in addition the term pakatūpanissaya, as natural condition, explaining the word “pakati” which is connected with “pakatūpanissaya”, as naturally, by nature. The conditioning factor conditions the arising of other dhammas naturally, and it can condition them without the assistance of decisive support-condition of object or decisive support-condition of proximity. For example, when there is strong confidence (saddhā) in kusala, this can be a cogent reason for the arising of kusala citta later on, without the need to be dependent on decisive support-condition of object or decisive support-condition of proximity." Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." #115487 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2011 6:17 am Subject: Re: Discussions in Keang Kracan with Phil. no 2. glenjohnann Dear Nina, Sarah and Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > A question about what nimitta is: > > Kh S: It is there now. It is there because of the rapid arising and > falling away of realities. No matter which unit of visible object is > arising asnd falling away, it keeps on arising and falling away so > that it forms up the sign (nimitta) of it as something that can be > seen. Whenever there is seeing there is the sign of the rapid arising > and falling away of realities. > > Q: Through all doorways? > > Kh S: Through all doorways. The nimitta covers up the truth of > realities which arise and fall away. No one can really directly > experience a particular reality, because there are so many [N: > arising and falling away very rapidly] that form up the sign, the > idea of people and things. There is a reality that can be seen and > pa~n~naa begins to understand that what is seen cannot be any one at > all. Only memory and thinking condition the idea of someone or > something . > > One lives in the world of nimitta of everything. Even citta or > vi~n~naa.na is vi~n~naa.na nimitta. There are also ruupa nimitta, > vedanaa nimitta, sa~n~naa nimitta, sa"nkhaara nimitta. It is not each > particular reality that is cognized, it is so short; but the nimitta > of each one is cognized. If there can be sati on and on, feeling > appears as that particular feeling. The nimitta of visible object can > be the object of understanding, it can be understood as the nimitta > of that characteristic, not as people or things. > > There is touching and hardness appears. Does it arise and fall away? > > Answer: yes. > > Sarah: At the moment of understanding a characteristic there is no > concern whether this is visible object or nimitta. > > Kh S: Even understanding that what appears is only visible object is > not easy. It is the truth. Without understanding this there is no way > to experience the arising and falling away of realities. > A: Thank you so much for transcribing this - I have read and reread it and have gotten so much more from it that I did when I heard it in KK. This, for me, is the clearest explanation I have seen re nimitta. And to S. and J. - thank you again for providing us with the first "draft" recording. Most useful. Ann #115488 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 5, 2011 6:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna- Bon-sin-san Dear Han, (Shalini, Dieter, Nina & Burmese friends) Thank you for your further research and clarifications. I also studied a little further. First, in terms of commentaries on the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, B.Bodhi writes the following in his introduction to CMA: Owing to its extreme concision, the Abhidhammattha Sangaha cannot be easily understood without explanation. Therefore to elucidate its terse and pithy synopsis of the Abhidhamma philosophy, a great number of tikas or commentaries have been written upon it. In fact, this work has probably stimulated more commentaries than any other Pali text, written not only in the Pali language but also in Burmese, Sinhala, Thai, etc. Since the fifteenth century Burma has been the international center of Abhidhamma studies, and therefore we find many commentaries written on it by Burmese scholars both in Pali and in Burmese. Commentaries on the Sangaha in Pali alone number nineteen, of which the following are the most important: " Abhidhammatthasangaha-Tika, also known as the Porana-Tika, "the Old Commentary." This is a very small tika written in Sri Lanka in the twelfth century by an elder named Acariya Navavimalabuddhi. Abhidhammatthavibhavini-Tika, or in brief, the Vibhavini, written by Acariya Sumangalasami, pupil of the eminent Sri Lankan elder Sariputta Mahasami, also in the twelfth century. This tika quickly superceded the Old Commentary and is generally considered the most profound and reliable exegetical work on the Sangaha. In Burma this work is known as tika-gyaw, "the Famous Commentary." The author is greatly respected for his erudition and mastery of the Abhidhamma. He relies heavily on older authorities such as the Abhidhamma-Anutika and the Visuddhimagga-Mahatika (also known as the Paramatthamanjusa). Although Ledi Sayadaw (see below) criticized the Vibhavini extensively in his own commentary on the Sangaha, its popularity has not diminished but indeed has even increased, and several Burmese scholars have risen to defend it against Ledi Sayadaw's criticisms. Sankhepa-vannana, written in the sixteenth century by Bhadanta Saddhamma Jotipala, also known as Chapada Mahathera, a Burmese monk who visited Sri Lanka during the reign of Parakramabahu VI of Kotte (fifteenth century).[14] Paramatthadipani-Tika, "The Elucidation of the Ultimate Meaning," by Ledi Sayadaw. Ledi Sayadaw of Burma (1846-1923) was one of the greatest scholar-monks and meditation masters of the Theravada tradition in recent times. He was the author of over seventy manuals on different aspects of Theravada Buddhism, including philosophy, ethics, meditation practice, and Pali grammar. His tika created a sensation in the field of Abhidhamma studies because he pointed out 325 places in the esteemed Vibhavini-tika where he alleged that errors and misinterpretations had occurred, though his criticisms also set off a reaction in defense of the older work. Ankura-Tika, by Vimala Sayadaw. This tika was written fifteen years after the publication of the Paramatthadipani and supports the commonly accepted opinions of the Vibhavini against Ledi Sayadaw's criticisms. Navanita-Tika, by the Indian scholar Dhammananda Kosambi, published originally in devanagari script in 1933. The title of this work means literally "The Butter Commentary," and it is so called probably because it explains the Sangaha in a smooth and simple manner, avoiding philosophical controversy." *** S: Now, turning to the Abhidhammatthavibhavini-Tika ("generally considered the most profound and reliable exegetical work on the Sangaha") itself on the question of sotapannas (PTS translation), I was interested to read the following in Ch 9 after the first quote from the Sangaha (CMA Pali & translation) itself: "Ettha pana sotaapattimagga.m bhaavetvaa di.t.thivicikicchaapahaanena pahiinaapaayagaano sattakkhattuparao sotaapanno naama hoti." "Herein, having developed the path of stream-entry, by abandoning wrong views and doubt one becomes a stream-enterer, one who has escaped from rebirth in woeful states and will be reborn at most seven more times." S: Now the commentary note with its interesting last line on this: " 'Who has at most seven times' means he takes relinking in the happy destinies of the sense-world seven times, on seven occasions, at most; what is meant is that he will not return to sense-sphere existence for an eighth time. With reference to this it is said, 'They do not take an eighth existence'; (Sn 230) ***but he can, say the teachers, go to the happy existences of the form and formless worlds following that seventh occasion.***" S: So there we have a little ambiguity on this point "say the teachers" as found in the Abhidhammatthavibhavini-Tika. I had understood from other texts, including those quoted in Nina's post below, that "at most seven times" was meant to refer to all realms. In other texts, as discussed, we read about the 3 types of sotapanna (as summarised here from B.Bodhi's Guide note): "1) One who will be reborn seven times at most in the human and celestial worlds (sattakkhattuparama) 2) One who takes birth in good families two or three times before attaining Arahantship (kolankola) 3) One who will be reborn only once more before attaining the goal (ekabiijii) S: The sotapannas mentioned in the Abhidhammatthavibhavini-Tika as "say the teachers" possibly going to "happy existences in the form and formless worlds following that seventh occasion" still fall under the sattakkhattuparama, the first kind of sotapanna, according to this text. So, in (my) conclusion, from this text, is that there may be some basis in the ancient texts "say the teachers" for the suggestion that the expression "at most seven times" may refer to sense-sphere existence only. However I don't see a basis for a separate 4th category of sotapannas. Of course, the words or terms or numbering may not in themselves be of significance. After all, the Path is about developing understanding of realities now! [I'll also give the link again to Nina's post with her translation of the Thai study issue on this point with further references: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/115393] Metta Sarah --- On Sat, 4/6/11, han tun wrote: >Among Burmese Sayadaws, there is a separate type of sotaapanna called Bon-sin-san Sotaapanna (different from sattakkhattuparama sotaapanna, kolankola sotaapanna, and ekabjin sotaapanna). >I have found it written in at least two Burmese books that I have at hand. If I were in Rangoon I would be able to quote more. >(1) "Sammaa-magga"nga-pa~nha" written by Aggamahaapa.n.dita Ashin Obhaasaabhiva.msa. >(2) Abhidhammahattha Sangaha .Tiikaa ("Thingyo-bhaa-saa .Tiikaa" in Burmese) written by Aggamahaapa.n.dita Ashin Janakaabhiva.msa (Mahaa-gandhaaron Sayadaw). >In both of these books, Bon-sin-san sotaapannas are mentioned. >In the first book, it is written that Bon-sin-san sotaapannas are the ones who are reborn in human, deva and brahma worlds (except five suddhaavaasa realms) for several times, like Anaathapindika and lay-follower Visakha. The other three sotaapannas are the ones who are reborn in human and deva worlds. [For Burmese friends, it is on page 231 of the book.] >In the second book, it is written that there are several Bon-sin-san sotaapannas, such as Sakka the deva-king, who is now in Taavati.msa, and who will "bon-sin-san", i.e., will go up to higher and higher realms and will finally attain parinibbaana. Sayadaw added that sattakkhattuparama sotaapanna and kolankola sotaapanna are the ones who are reborn in human and deva worlds, and ekabjin sotaapanna is the one who is reborn in human world. But Bon-sin-san sotaapannas can go upto Brahma world. [For Burmese friends, it is on page 721 of the book.] ======= #115489 From: han tun Date: Sun Jun 5, 2011 8:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna- Bon-sin-san Dear Sarah (Shalini, Dieter, Nina & Burmese friends) Sarah, I thank you ever so much for the additional information that you have provided which are very informative and useful. I just wrote that I found in the books by Burmese Sayadaws about the Bon-sin-san sotaapanna. I am nobody or not well-informed like you to say who is right and who is wrong, or whether there is a basis for a separate 4th category of sotaapannas. I just give the information that I have found. As regards Nina's post (#115393) I have all praise for her explanations. With much appreciation and deepest respect, I had written to Nina that it was the most valuable explanation on "A Sotapanna" I have ever read. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/115396 Kind regards, Han #115490 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 5, 2011 8:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussions in Keang Kracan with Phil. no 2. Dear Ann, Op 5-jun-2011, om 8:17 heeft glenjohnann het volgende geschreven: > A: Thank you so much for transcribing this - I have read and reread > it and have gotten so much more from it that I did when I heard it > in KK. This, for me, is the clearest explanation I have seen re > nimitta. > > And to S. and J. - thank you again for providing us with the first > "draft" recording. Most useful. ------ N: How good you asked Kh Sujin about nimitta. I also find that when listening it goes so fast. Gone with the wind! When reading it one can take it in more slowly. And also the transcribing I find helpful. Nina. #115491 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 5, 2011 9:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna- Bon-sin-san Dear Sarah, I read your quotes with interest, especially with regard to the amount of tiikas. . I agree that 'say the teachers' may have led some people to believe that there are more than seven rebirths for the sotaapanna. The commentaries render different opinions. Nina. Op 5-jun-2011, om 8:19 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > So, in (my) conclusion, from this text, is that there may be some > basis in the ancient texts "say the teachers" for the suggestion > that the expression "at most seven times" may refer to sense-sphere > existence only. However I don't see a basis for a separate 4th > category of sotapannas. > > Of course, the words or terms or numbering may not in themselves be > of significance. After all, the Path is about developing > understanding of realities now! #115492 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 5, 2011 9:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ajahn Naeb Dear Greg, Op 4-jun-2011, om 17:31 heeft G. het volgende geschreven: > I am trying to find information on Ajahn Naeb's lineage in Burma > and also on her approach to Vipassana. Are their other teaches that > describe Vipassana practice in a similar way? ------- N: She was a teacher of Acharn Sujin in the beginning. I read the book on vipassanaa where Acharn Sujin spoke about her ideas, but later on Acharn Sujin went another way. Acharn Naeb stressed that there was a sitting ruupa, but this is not included in the list of 28 ruupas we find in the Abhidhamma. She seemed to stress that retreats were necessary for vipassanaa. Once when Acharn Sujin was in a retreat she found out that it does not make any difference in which place one is. Seeing is always seeing, visible object is always visible object, no matter where one is, and understanding of these realities can be developed in any place, at any time. This was the last time Acharn Sujin went into retreat. This happened shortly before I met her. Acharn Sujin was always grateful to Acharn Naeb for her teaching of the Abhidhamma. Acharn Naeb encouraged her to teach Abhidhamma to others and form a class. Nina. #115494 From: "Christine" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2011 9:21 am Subject: Re: Ajahn Naeb christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "G." wrote: > > Hello, > > I am trying to find information on Ajahn Naeb's lineage in Burma and also on her approach to Vipassana. Are their other teaches that describe Vipassana practice in a similar way? > > Thank you > > Greg > Hello Greg, A few links to peruse: Ajahn Naeb (1897-1983) View P.137 and onwards - she was the student of Ajahn U Pathunta U Vilasa. http://books.google.com.au/books?id=8InEkEp5FtEC&pg=PA137&lpg=PA137&dq=Ajahn+Nae\ b&source=bl&ots=_gFy9rmB4t&sig=6ss0-kgMCdlRwFl8ZDk02Exl9Sc&hl=en&ei=10XrTZqkD43Y\ uAPWv621Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Aj\ ahn%20Naeb&f=false Buddhist Master Series Ajahn Naeb http://www.dharmaseed.org/feeds/talk/86/2571/ Ajaan Naeb (1897-1983), a Thai laywoman, had a deep experience of no self at the age of 34. She then sought out someone who could teach her vipassana-kammathana. She practiced under the Burmese monk Pathunta U Vilasa and realized nibbana. She then turned her attention to study of abhidhamma and became an expert on Buddhist philosophy. http://www.dhammathai.org/e/meditation/page13.php with metta Chris #115495 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 5, 2011 9:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: More on Ajahn Naeb Dear Greg, Op 5-jun-2011, om 11:21 heeft Christine het volgende geschreven: > A few links to peruse: > Ajahn Naeb (1897-1983) ------- N: In Rob Kirkpatrick's forum (http://www.abhidhamma.org/ , under vipassanaa) there are many quotes, for example: She stresses very much the changing of posture so that one can see dukkha. But as Acharn Sujin explained, it is the idea of posture we take for self. ------ Nina. #115496 From: han tun Date: Sun Jun 5, 2011 11:45 pm Subject: The writings of Burmese Sayadaws Dear Sarah, I am very angry with myself for bringing in our Burmese Sayadaws into the discussions here. I am an unworthy follower of them. I beg them to forgive me. You do not know what they mean to us and especially to me. You may say that in Dhamma study, you do not take into account the "person", but only the Dhamma. But it is different with me. I care for the "person" as well as the Dhamma they teach. This will be the last time I will quote the Burmese books and the Burmese Sayadaws. It is not your fault. Only my fault, for which act of exposing my Sayadaws to criticism I will never forgive myself. Kind regards, Han #115497 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2011 10:53 pm Subject: Disgust Evaporates Lust! Friends: Seeing Disgusting Objects Dispels Greed! The Blessed Buddha once said: Awareness of the Body induces all advantageous qualities including clear comprehension! The ancients said: Protect the sign, protect the nimitta...! The Asubha Nimitta is a Disgusting Sign fixed in memory by meditation, that one can redirect mind to whenever overcome by lust, greed and desire. This sign detaches the mind from clinging to mere forms of foul impurities... One then gains an 'off' button to turn 'off' desire and craving... This indeed is the very KEY to disable suffering, since craving is the primary cause of all suffering. Corpse Meditation (Asubha-Bh�van�) effectively reduces desire! <...> Clever Disgust cools all obsessive greed and addictive lust: For Inspiration: A collection of Corpse Pictures Warning: Only for Adults http://s914.photobucket.com/albums/ac350/Asubha/ Password: corpses Pick out the most disgusting picture and memorize it firmly and vividly. Remember it whenever greedy! Then the greed will instantly vanish! And the frustrating urge and tearing longing therefore subsides! How to cure any greed, lust, desire, voracity, lewdness, longing and craving: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/The_Skeleton.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Experiencing_Disgust.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Meditation_On_the_Body_Kayagata-Sati.ht m Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Sam�hita _/\_ * <....> #115498 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 6, 2011 1:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The writings of Burmese Sayadaws Dear Han, I'm just leaving our flat, but saw your note. Please don't feel angry with yourself. I'm sure the Burmese Sayadaws would feel honoured and appreciate the fact that you read and listen to what they say and share it with us all. It's the same if we quote K.Sujin or any other teacher and anyone questions the comments or raise details from the Tipitaka which might bring such comments into question. There is nothing 'unworthy' in sharing the comments in the first place. There was one particular example when I re-quoted something K.Sujin had said, which turned out to be factually in error (thx to Burmese Kelvin here). When I told K.Sujin, she had friends help her re-check the Pali texts and was very grateful to be told of the error. Like Nina, I'm always glad to hear the extra comments and anything I post is not intended as a criticism at all, just Dhamma sharing so we can better understand the Truths at this moment. I should be more sensitive to your feelings all the same. I think the point about sotapannas is a relatively minor point with no consequence to the 'practice' or understanding at this moment. Actually, I thought the quote from the commentary which suggested the 7 lives max might only apply to sense-sphere lives rather supported what the Sayadaws were saying and rather questioned the 'absolute max 7 lives' comments. Must go out! Metta Sarah --- On Mon, 6/6/11, han tun wrote: From: han tun >I am very angry with myself for bringing in our Burmese Sayadaws into the discussions here. #115499 From: Shalini S Date: Mon Jun 6, 2011 2:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The writings of Burmese Sayadaws shalnew Dear Han, Sarah, Nina and others, I am a new member here and forgive me if I am writing beyond my scope here. But I humbly share my feelings here, because I think it is important for me to do so, so that the help that I found in this study group continues to flow and help many like me. Also I must have triggerred this whole Bon-sin-san discussion, so I must feel like writing this, despite being so new here in this forum. I also honor Burmese Sayadaws immensely for their compassion and insight in practice and their teachings do have an immense impact in my daily practice. Han's information really cleared my mind to a large extent. Sometimes doubts ( vichikicca ) tend to drift our practice and reduce the chanda, viriya, citta, vimamsa ( the iddipada 4 base of succes ) in our efforts. The question of bon-sin-san was always there in my mind and I just wanted some more writings to confirm it so that it doesnt come out to be false in my mind. That is the reason I sought the clarification here and my doubts were clarified indeed by Han's generous sharing of information and also through Vince's pdf on Sukkha Vipassana. I heartily thank Han and Vince for sharing this information, believe me it truly helped a ordinary dhamma traveller like me on her path towards practice. It will be a pity if Han/Vince would stop sharing this information. People like me have no access to such information which proves to be so valuable. I request Han and others to please keep the information and knowledge flowing and continue to make this a conducive forum for such sharing of knowledge, which is what I see this forum as and continue to believe so. If the reason for finding some teachings/writings baseless for an individual remains at oneself( maybe he/she lacks full information on that, or does not appeal to their logic.. fair enough) but not pointing at the teachers, exchange of this valuable dhamma information will be wholesome and healthy. Once it starts to point at the teachers, it might tend to become unwholesome is my humble opinion. Sayagi U Ba Khin was so particular about the evils of condeming the teachings of other teachers, that once he refused to teach a student because he had observed one of his previous students of the same background, had taken his teaching and started to give lectures on how this teaching was superior and started to condemn other teachers. Creating schisms in the Sangha was his concern. I am not saying that is happenning here, but yes whether teachers do have a difference in facts/writings/views, I would say we can only examine them objectively and leave it at that. And I personally honor the teachings of the Thai masters even though some of the writings as pointed out may have a little contradiction ... or so I perceive..maybe it is just not so if wise people have a different eye to look at those very teachings, who knows. Us worldlings I can only read those writings and believe or not believe it as truth stated by the wise people and honor it but it is for me to find out by my own practice at some stage in the future, rather than deny or accept it through dry intellect and logic. This has always been my stand. As Han so wonderfully said: "Therefore, the best way to solve this problem is, please consider [Bon-sin-san and several births] as a concept familiar in Burmese doctrinal tradition, and leave the matter at that" Thanks and much metta! Shalini --- On Sun, 6/5/11, han tun wrote: From: han tun Subject: [dsg] The writings of Burmese Sayadaws To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, June 5, 2011, 6:45 PM Dear Sarah, I am very angry with myself for bringing in our Burmese Sayadaws into the discussions here. I am an unworthy follower of them. I beg them to forgive me. You do not know what they mean to us and especially to me. You may say that in Dhamma study, you do not take into account the "person", but only the Dhamma. But it is different with me. I care for the "person" as well as the Dhamma they teach. This will be the last time I will quote the Burmese books and the Burmese Sayadaws. It is not your fault. Only my fault, for which act of exposing my Sayadaws to criticism I will never forgive myself. Kind regards, Han #115500 From: Shalini S Date: Mon Jun 6, 2011 2:46 am Subject: is it ok to get attached to one's teacher Dear co-Dhamma-learners: I had posted this on a different forum and I thought I will post it here too for sharing, and reflection. In fact I started to read Ashin Janakibhivamsa's writings after Han mentioned his writings and I find it useful and insightful. When one of my friends was conversing with me, I was affectionately talking about Goenkaji as my Guruji... And then my friend challenged that I was attached and it made me wonder. While I wondered I found this piece of writing which is interesting at the least: Especially I found the below words something to really reflect on: In the Patthana Pali it is said, "Akusalo dhamma kusalassa dhammassa upanissaya paccayena paccayo - unwholesome mental factors can support the formation of wholesome mental factors." "Confusion between Faith and Love Today even virtuous persons confuse faith with love or affection. Many devotee will revere Dhamma teachers with pleasant voice and personalities who give good instructions. If they respect and honour them only for their good ethical conduct, it is saddha (faith). But if they become attached to such teachers like their own relatives it is mixture of faith and love. In Gotama Buddha's time, disciples such as Venerable Vakkali and Minister Channa not only revered the Buddha but also loved him personally. So although faith was present in their hearts, there also was samyojana (attachment) which is unwholesome. Some people accept doctrines and instructions through personal attachment; such attachments sometimes can promote knowledge and wisdom and enhance fulfilment of parami perfections. If wholesome mental factors are cultivated on account of personal attachments, then it is beneficial. In the Patthana Pali it is said, "Akusalo dhamma kusalassa dhammassa upanissaya paccayena paccayo - unwholesome mental factors can support the formation of wholesome mental factors." So even small unwholesome mental attachments can lead to good states of mind. In this view, teachers and preachers should teach the Dhamma with sincerity and goodwill to promote such developments. And disciples and devotees, on their part, should properly practise what is taught, so as to get beneficial results. " The above words from http://www.dhammaweb.net/htmlbook/page.php?page=4&id=8 Abhidhamma in Daily Life by Agga maha Pandita Janakabhivamsa, Ashin from Burma. Enjoy. #115501 From: Shalini S Date: Mon Jun 6, 2011 4:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] is it ok to get attached to one's teacher A correction - I just realised Han mentioned a different Ashin and not Ashin Janakabhivamsa. Didnt want to misquote.. Anyways, I did find Ashin Janakabhivamsa after I searched on Ashin on google after I read about Ashin Obaasaabhiva. S: >>>>>I had posted this on a different forum and I thought I will post it here too for sharing, and reflection. In fact I started to read Ashin Janakibhivamsa's writings after Han mentioned his writings and I find it useful and insightful. in an earlier email [Han]: Yes, there is another Burmese Sayadaw [there may be more] who wrote that Bon-sin-san sotaapanna can live more than seven lives. Ashin Obhaasaabhiva.msa Mahaa Thera #115502 From: han tun Date: Mon Jun 6, 2011 4:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] is it ok to get attached to one's teacher Dear Shalini, [Shalini] A correction - I just realised Han mentioned a different Ashin and not Ashin Janakabhivamsa. Didnt want to misquote.. Anyways, I did find Ashin Janakabhivamsa after I searched on Ashin on google after I read about Ashin Obaasaabhiva. [Han]: You are not wrong. I also quote Aggamahaapa.n.dita Ashin Janakaabhiva.msa (Mahaa-gandhaaron Sayadaw) in my next post. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/115471 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/115472 I will not continue the discussion on this topic. Kind regards, Han #115503 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Jun 6, 2011 5:28 am Subject: Leaving for a retreat. I am back Hi Dhamma friends, The one-day retreat was very nice. What's most precious for me was association with wise friends. This is really precious cause this have the strenght to condition a right understanding. I was listening in a car Acharn Sujin in Bodh Gaya in 2004 speech that was really strucking me. She mentioned that the present moments is there and more right understanding will condition more right understanding. She told about satipatthana, that when people her about it, they want to have it, they want to develop it, and then she added, it's wrong. It's not the way. She was constatntly saying that there is nama and ruupa now, and that we now a lot from books, but it's not understanding, and we need to develop little by little nama and ruupa for ourselves. And this will lead gradually to satipatthana. How to develop panna -that was a question. The answer was: Now....Now...only now. detachement..detachment this is the goal. Detachement from idea of Self..detachment from clinging to seeing, detachement to visible object. I was enjoying that all, and again I think I am getting the point that I forgot, nothing different there then present moment. Khun Sujin mentioned there is always something, do we look for something, do we want more attachement or detachement. (Luke)So I think developement of right understanding now. detachement this is a goal. Best wishes Lukas #115504 From: Vince Date: Mon Jun 6, 2011 5:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The writings of Burmese Sayadaws cerovzt@... Send Email Send Email Dear Han you wrote: > I care for the "person" as well as the Dhamma they teach. > Only my fault, for which act of exposing my Sayadaws to criticism I will never > forgive myself. there is this Buddha Sutta showing a wider sense about the notion of stream-winners: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn55/sn55.024.wlsh.html in this Sutta Buddha says: "I would proclaim these great sal trees to be Stream-Winners" and he is including people who apparently would not be sotapannas according the commentaries about 7 lives. These included people are who: "..has not gained release. But he has just these things: the faculty of faith, of energy, of mindfulness, of concentration, of wisdom. Yet if he has merely faith, merely affection for the Tathaagata, that man, too, does not go to... states of woe." apparently, in this Sutta the Buddha talks about all them inside the stream-winner notion. So I wonder if in a similar way, maybe the burmese commentaries are applying a wider sense to the sotapanna notion, and needing the Bon.sin.san to embrace the whole idea. I don't know. Although for sure sayadaws would be happy of seeing people discussing their teaching instead ignoring that. Investigate is not criticize. Don't feel wrong. Sharing Dhamma is good :) Thanks for sending those interesting texts, best, Vince. #115505 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 6, 2011 6:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Leaving for a retreat. I am back Dear Lukas, Op 6-jun-2011, om 7:28 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > So I think developement of right understanding now. detachement > this is a goal. ------ N: Thank you for your report about Kh Sujin in Gaya, very good. You understood it very well. No difference where one is and when, only naama and ruupa to be understood. It is useful if you can give us more summaries of what you hear on recording. I shall do the same. Nina. #115506 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 6, 2011 6:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The writings of Burmese Sayadaws Dear Vince and Han, Op 6-jun-2011, om 7:47 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > These included people are who: > > "..has not gained release. But he has just these things: the > faculty of faith, of > energy, of mindfulness, of concentration, of wisdom. Yet if he has > merely faith, > merely affection for the Tathaagata, that man, too, does not go > to... states of woe." > > apparently, in this Sutta the Buddha talks about all them inside the > stream-winner notion. ------- N: Thank you Vince for these texts. In Thailand I heard about the kaliyana putthujana, the upright person. Even a non-ariyan can be such a person with full confidence in the Buddha's teaching. Having confidence, being sincere, listening to the Dhamma again and again and beginning to be aware of any reality appearing through one of the six doors. No need to fear an unhappy rebirth. Nina. #115507 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 6, 2011 6:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] is it ok to get attached to one's teacher Dear Shalini, Op 6-jun-2011, om 4:46 heeft Shalini S het volgende geschreven: > In the Patthana Pali it is said, "Akusalo dhamma kusalassa > dhammassa upanissaya paccayena paccayo - unwholesome mental factors > can support the formation of wholesome mental factors." ------ N: This is very true. I enjoyed your good quote. I see from your writing that you have studied a lot. I remember that Kh Sujin said from the beginning that only the Dhamma matters, not the person. She does not approve of it when people become attached to her person. People should find out the truth for themselves, verify the truth. She pepeatedly said that the Buddha taught so that people would have 'their own understanding', not just follow his words. We listen but it is very important to really consider for ourselves what we heard. And to apply what we heard. We should not be passive listeners. Nina. #115508 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 6, 2011 6:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The writings of Burmese Sayadaws Dear Han and Sarah, Op 6-jun-2011, om 3:01 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Like Nina, I'm always glad to hear the extra comments and anything > I post is not intended as a criticism at all, just Dhamma sharing > so we can better understand the Truths at this moment. ------ N: Han, I do not want you to feel bad. As Sarah said, it is all Dhamma sharing, not criticism. I did not read anything disrespective towards the Sayadaws you wrote. ------ Nina. #115509 From: Shalini S Date: Mon Jun 6, 2011 7:27 am Subject: Saarakkana Sutta and Sotapannas Thanks Vince for the useful sutta and Nina for the useful piece of information. Vince has pulled this sutta out from the huge ocean of suttas and I am glad. It is very encouraging to know this and Nina's short piece of information of non-ariyan's too having a chance of not going into woeful states. That really is immediately relevant in encouraging my own sense of accumulating the required good qualities. I think the Burmese writings clearly mention that Bon-sin-san has surely destroyed the "Sakkaya ditthi" belief and is considered an Ariyan, even though I havent yet seen the writings mention whether they have destroyed the other two ( vichikicca and silabbataparamasam ). It still might be included in the sal tree of this sutta.Yes I have come to believe them personally, cause it makes sense that if perhaps one hasnt attained the jhanas, it might be possible for them to bon-sin-san, but thats purely my own justifying logic to base my belief on. I believe that the Burmese masters know better about what they are talking about. And I notice that the definition in this Sutta of the Stream Winner who has destroyed the required fetters, does not mention the maximum 7 lives constraint, not that it implies anything, but just an attention to the detail. I also see an interesting note at the end which states: "An encouraging message for many! Cf. the end of MN 22, and also the charming image of the new-born calf in MN 34. The Commentary (MA) to MN 22 says such people are termed "lesser stream-winners" (cuulasotaapannaa)." metta, Shalini --- On Mon, 6/6/11, Nina van Gorkom wrote: From: Nina van Gorkom Subject: Re: [dsg] The writings of Burmese Sayadaws To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, June 6, 2011, 1:09 AM Dear Vince and Han, Op 6-jun-2011, om 7:47 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > These included people are who: > > "..has not gained release. But he has just these things: the > faculty of faith, of > energy, of mindfulness, of concentration, of wisdom. Yet if he has > merely faith, > merely affection for the Tathaagata, that man, too, does not go > to... states of woe." > > apparently, in this Sutta the Buddha talks about all them inside the > stream-winner notion. ------- N: Thank you Vince for these texts. In Thailand I heard about the kaliyana putthujana, the upright person. Even a non-ariyan can be such a person with full confidence in the Buddha's teaching. Having confidence, being sincere, listening to the Dhamma again and again and beginning to be aware of any reality appearing through one of the six doors. No need to fear an unhappy rebirth. Nina. #115510 From: Shalini S Date: Mon Jun 6, 2011 7:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] is it ok to get attached to one's teacher shalnew Dear Nina, [Nina]": We listen but it is very important to really consider for ourselves what we heard. And to apply what we heard. We should not be passive listeners. [Shalini]: Sometimes when I am overcome in doubt, I have found that just postponing clarity with sheer faith towards the teaching and devotion towards the teacher indeed has helped me to go through the period of overwhelming doubt without taking a drastic action of perhaps discarding practice, or switching from one teacher to another frequently. I really feel the nivarana called doubt is overcome through discussion with the learned, i.e reading the words of the more practiced and more wiser people and also through faith and devotion. And invariably I find that finally the doubt gets clarified through experience or in the reading of the Buddha's or a Wise Sangha's words, where I at least come to the stage of believing it as a truth which I can clarify through experience even if that is in a very far remote future time. For eg, I believe almost passively that a state called "bhanga" exists even though I currently do not have an experience of it or even though I cannot base it precisely on reason or logic. I base that almost passive belief on just the simple and short moments of awareness and equanimity to rising and falling sensations that I have acquired and on the fact that hence I can rely on my teacher's teachings. While not accepting a teaching blindly is important, it is also important to keep our minds open which is one of the wholesome kusala ( I think it is pliancy of mind - citta muduta, if I remember correctly), to consider the teachings in different perspectives and believe what really strikes at our heart as true. This stand has benefitted me. This said, I strive to remember that beliefs are beliefs and truths are truths. A belief turns to truth only when I myself experience and "see" it fully , not even if my teachers see it, or wise people talk/write about it. Understanding something intellectually even does not make it a truth. Only by experience can a belief turn to truth ( So Bon-sin-san to me is a truth, if by experience I am able to see with perhaps a iddhi power that people are indeed born so, or perhaps if I become one... :-) ). Till then I have no other go but to just choose my beliefs sometimes out of faith, sometimes out of reason, sometimes out of deduction/hearing/knowledge etc., so that it just pushes me on the path towards such attainment of truth. I cant surely "apply" my knowledge or belief of a bon-sin-san or the bhanga state, except for such beneficial reasons as clearing doubt, increasing confidence etc on the path. metta, Shalini . #115511 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 6, 2011 8:43 am Subject: Discussions with Phil in Kaeng Kracan, continued. Dear friends, Phil: If we study cetasikas in detail it could side-track us. Kh S: It depends on whether it brings more understanding about the subtlety of realities right now. For example, we can talk about vitakka cetasika [N: thinking, the cetasika that touches or hits the object so that citta can experience it]. How many cetasikas are accompanied by it? It is not a matter of just knowing more details about the story, but to see it the way it is. Nobody can change it, nobody can condition any citta, it has to be such or such. Is the citta that sees or hears accompanied by vitakka? They do not need vitakka. [N: They directly experience the object and do not need the assistence of vitakka that touches the object.] But the following citta needs vitakka. So we can see the subtlety of realities. Without the Buddhas teaching it is very difficult to know all this. We do not know yet citta and the different cetasikas that accompany it. What about understanding each word of the teachings, such as understanding the reality which sees, so that we know by how many cetasikas it is conditioned. Now there are many processes of cittas and does seeing appear? Or hearing? There are spaces in between them with many cittas and cetasikas arising and falling away. This cannot be known by thinking about it. But that which appears can be directly understood. When we have understanding of satipa.t.thaana we know that there is not only seeing, but also attachment to what is seen. Now there is attachment to what is seen, but it does not appear to sati. What appears is seeing and the sign of its arising and falling away, the nimitta. By understanding this we know that we live in the world of thought. Realities arise and fall away so rapidly, so that no one knows the truth of it. Now it seems that there are many people, a garden, trees, but there is actually one unit of a reality with a split-second duration that is conditioned to arise and fall away. It arises and falls away in succession, all the time, without us understanding it. When there is understanding, hiri (shame of akusala), ottappa (fear of blame for akusala) and all wholesome realities are there, but not as I. --------- Nina. #115512 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 6, 2011 8:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] is it ok to get attached to one's teacher Dear Shalini, Op 6-jun-2011, om 9:47 heeft Shalini S het volgende geschreven: > While not accepting a teaching blindly is important, it is also > important to keep our minds open which is one of the wholesome > kusala ( I think it is pliancy of mind - citta muduta, if I > remember correctly), to consider the teachings in different > perspectives and believe what really strikes at our heart as true. > This stand has benefitted me. ------- N: Thank you for sharing your experiences as to overcoming doubt. True, discussions with the wise helps. And you also see the benefit of not following teachers blindly. When you say bhanga, I think you mean bhavangacitta? This reminds me of something. We were wondering whether this can ever be experienced. Kh S explained that it can, through insight. She said: why should the Buddha teach this if it cannot be experienced? I think it depends on one's accumulated understanding. As I understood, there is a gap in between the experience of objects through the six doors and that is bhavangacitta. I also discussed this with Lodewijk when he had narcosis, a deep, dreamless sleep. He had no idea where he was, who he was. He received the injection and in five seconds he was away and did not remember anything. There were no objects impinging on the six doorways. The moment of cuti-citta is the same type of citta. One leaves this life, this personality, and when pa.tisandhicitta arises, one does not remember anything of the past (excepted are those with special powers, iddhis). Just as we do not remember anything of our past life now. It all goes so extremely fast, so death is not frightening. When we are afraid it is only thinking about the future that has not come yet. I remarked to Lodewijk that it is so hard for those who stay behind. ------- Nina. > > #115513 From: Shalini S Date: Mon Jun 6, 2011 12:46 pm Subject: bhavanga and bhanga Hi Nina, Bhavanga and bhanga are different. Bhanga as I understand, is a stage of Vipassana insight, where one experiences complete dissolution of sensations, or a state in which wherever the mind/awareness goes, it only sees the khandas falling away instead of seeing them both rising and falling, because there is no interval betwee the rising and falling at that state, due to the speed of the process. This state is supposed to give a very strong sense of impermanency (anicca) at the experiential level, leading to further stages of insight finally leading to the Magga Phala jnana. Bhavanga as I understand is the "life force" which maintains continuity of the flow of life, when there is no stimulus at the sense doors. If I remember correct, I think, based on the nature of this bhavanga flow, people are also classified as dvihetuka or ahetuka or trihetuka by nature. Yes I also possess the faith that both bhanga and bhavanga can be experienced, and I do know fellow meditators who have experienced the bhanga state. metta, Shalini ------- N: Thank you for sharing your experiences as to overcoming doubt. True, discussions with the wise helps. And you also see the benefit of not following teachers blindly. When you say bhanga, I think you mean bhavangacitta? This reminds me of something. We were wondering whether this can ever be experienced. Kh S explained that it can, through insight. She said: why should the Buddha teach this if it cannot be experienced? I think it depends on one's accumulated understanding. As I understood, there is a gap in between the experience of objects through the six doors and that is bhavangacitta. I also discussed this with Lodewijk when he had narcosis, a deep, dreamless sleep. He had no idea where he was, who he was. He received the injection and in five seconds he was away and did not remember anything. There were no objects impinging on the six doorways. The moment of cuti-citta is the same type of citta. One leaves this life, this personality, and when pa.tisandhicitta arises, one does not remember anything of the past (excepted are those with special powers, iddhis). Just as we do not remember anything of our past life now. It all goes so extremely fast, so death is not frightening. When we are afraid it is only thinking about the future that has not come yet. I remarked to Lodewijk that it is so hard for those who stay behind. ------- Nina. > > #115514 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 6, 2011 1:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] bhavanga and bhanga Dear Shalini, Op 6-jun-2011, om 14:46 heeft Shalini S het volgende geschreven: > Yes I also possess the faith that both bhanga and bhavanga can be > experienced, and I do know fellow meditators who have experienced > the bhanga state. ------ N: Sorry, I misunderstood you. Yes, bhanga ~naa.na is a stage of insight: pa~n~naa that is attentive to falling away of realities, and then there is more detachment, but I only know in theory. All the stages can be known but we shall see when time comes! Nina. #115516 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Jun 6, 2011 2:46 pm Subject: why did the Buddha praise physical seclusion? truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, >Once when Acharn Sujin was in a retreat she found out that it does >not make any difference in which place one is. You are absolutely right, except that the above is applicable only for an Arahant or someone whose unwholesome tendencies were really suppressed. Otherwise certain kinds of external objects will serve as (Decisive) object condition for the hindrances, at the moment of which bad kamma is made and at those moments awakening cannot occur for most of us, save the most gifted. I wonder, why did the Buddha praise physical seclusion and becoming a Bhikkhu/ni ? Why did He create such an order and encouraged people to join it? Ex: Nanda. If any place is the right place, would Nanda become an Arahant (or even Anagami) being a lay person as fast as being a Bhikkhu? With metta, Alex #115517 From: Kevin F Date: Mon Jun 6, 2011 4:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Saarakkana Sutta and Sotapannas Dear Shalini, A couple of points, First of all, your comments here are welcome and appreciated. Secondly, as you noticed ""An encouraging message for many! Cf. the end of MN 22, and also the charming image of the new-born calf in MN 34. The Commentary (MA) to MN 22 says such people are termed "lesser stream-winners" (cuulasotaapannaa)." People who have reached the second stage of insight are cuula sotapannas. These people have true faith and conviction in the teachings having seen it for themselves, though not all the way through to completion of any of the Ariyan paths and fruits. As the Commentaries state such a person is not destined for states of woe and has a "fixed destiny" for understanding. I believe it was in the VsM that similar Suttas were referenced to show that the Buddha was talking about Cuula-sotapannas. Someone with that level of insight has faith in the Tathagata, having seen and experienced the teachings himself. That solid conviction in the Buddha and the Dhamma will cause heavenly rebirth. Also, about 7 lifetimes. Whether you want to use the terms Bon-sin-san Sotapannas or not, the fact is that it is clearly stated in the ancient texts that Anagamis can have multiple lifetimes in the Suddhaavaasa (5). That leaves a sotapanna with a possibility of 7 births plus 5 more when he/she becomes an Anagami. The total possible is 12 births when you count the births in the Pure Abodes, 7 if you do not. In the Suttas, the Buddha did not include the births in the Pure Abodes, it seems. Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." ________________________________ #115518 From: Ken O Date: Mon Jun 6, 2011 5:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] is it ok to get attached to one's teacher ashkenn2k Dear Shalini > >Dear co-Dhamma-learners: > >I had posted this on a different forum and I thought I will post it here too for > >sharing, and reflection. In fact I started to read Ashin Janakibhivamsa's >writings after Han mentioned his writings and I find it useful and insightful. > > > >When one of my friends was conversing with me, I was affectionately talking >about Goenkaji as my Guruji... And then my friend challenged that I was attached > >and it made me wonder. > > >While I wondered I found this piece of writing which is interesting at the >least: > > >Especially I found the below words something to really reflect on: >In the Patthana Pali it is said, "Akusalo dhamma kusalassa dhammassa upanissaya >paccayena paccayo - unwholesome mental factors can support the formation of >wholesome mental factors." > > > >"Confusion between Faith and Love >Today even virtuous persons confuse faith with love or affection. Many devotee >will revere Dhamma teachers with pleasant voice and personalities who give good >instructions. If they respect and honour them only for their good ethical >conduct, it is saddha (faith). But if they become attached to such teachers like > >their own relatives it is mixture of faith and love. > > >In Gotama Buddha's time, disciples such as Venerable Vakkali and Minister Channa > >not only revered the Buddha but also loved him personally. So although faith was > >present in their hearts, there also was samyojana (attachment) which is >unwholesome. > > >Some people accept doctrines and instructions through personal attachment; such >attachments sometimes can promote knowledge and wisdom and enhance fulfilment of > >parami perfections. If wholesome mental factors are cultivated on account of >personal attachments, then it is beneficial. > > >In the Patthana Pali it is said, "Akusalo dhamma kusalassa dhammassa upanissaya >paccayena paccayo - unwholesome mental factors can support the formation of >wholesome mental factors." > > >So even small unwholesome mental attachments can lead to good states of mind. In > >this view, teachers and preachers should teach the Dhamma with sincerity and >goodwill to promote such developments. And disciples and devotees, on their >part, should properly practise what is taught, so as to get beneficial results. >" > KO: we cannot use this statement from patthana out of this context, it was not meant to be in this way. Though unwholesome do condition the arisen of wholesome, I dont think the text supported this idea of small unwholesome mental attachments can lead to good states. I dont encourage any attachment to any teacher or preachers or even to fellow dhamma fellowers. I remember there is saying, refrain from all evil, doing what is wholesome and purify the citta, this is the teaching of the Buddha Just my thought Ken O #115519 From: "G." Date: Mon Jun 6, 2011 3:13 pm Subject: Re: More on Ajahn Naeb gleblanc108 Thank you all for the reply's; how do I find out more about Acharn Sujin's teaching? Sincerely Greg --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: <...> > But as Acharn Sujin explained, it is the idea of posture we take for > self. > ------ #115520 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jun 6, 2011 9:48 pm Subject: Rejoice! Friends: How to train Rejoicing Joy in others Success? When sitting alone, in silence, each early morning, with closed eyes one wishes: May I radiate and meet only never-ending and mutually rejoicing joy! May I & all the various beings on the 31 levels of existence develop and find only celebration and elation in a never-ending mutually rejoicing joy! May I & all beings on the sense-desire, fine-material, and the formless plane develop and encounter this generous, infinite and mutually rejoicing joy! May I & all beings in the front, to the right, the back, the left, and below as above, develop and experience openhearted, sharing, & mutually rejoicing joy! May I and all beings within this city, country, planet and universe always: Be fully aware and deeply mindful of this content and mutually rejoicing joy! Examine all details & aspects of this satisfied and mutually rejoicing joy! Put enthusiastic effort in our praxis of this devoted mutually rejoicing joy! Enjoy enraptured jubilant gladness in this exulting mutually rejoicing joy! Be silenced by the tranquillity of quiet and all smiling mutually rejoicing joy! Be concentrated & absorbed into one-pointedness by genuine rejoicing joy! Dwell in an imperturbable equanimity of pure and mutually rejoicing joy... Yeah! May it be even so, since mutual joy causes the jewel of contentment! Comment: Mutual Joy is the 3rd infinite mental state (Appamaññā): This gradually reduces all envy, jealousy, possessiveness, stinginess, avarice miserliness, green covetousness and unhappiness related with all these states. The cause of Mutual Joy in rejoicing in your child's or boon companion's success. This same joy can then be beamed towards all liked, neutral and hostile beings. Mutual Joy is then the proximate cause of satisfied and fulfilled Contentment... Lack of mutual joy is thus the proximate cause of dissatisfied discontentment... Joined with the 7 links to Awakening it will later cause a formless jhāna... Be happy at all and especially other being's success! Then calm comfort grows! <...> Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita _/\_ * <...> #115521 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Jun 7, 2011 12:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] is it ok to get attached to one's teacher kenhowardau Hi Ken O and Shalini, -------- <. . .> KO: I remember there is saying, refrain from all evil, doing what is wholesome and purify the citta, this is the teaching of the Buddha -------- KH: Yes, I have heard that too, and I think it is proof of the momentary (single moment) nature of the teaching. If it were a conventional (multi moment) teaching it would be impossible for any learner to follow. Only an arahant can refrain from evil all of the time. Furthermore, l think the Buddha literally meant that all three disciplines were to be practised simultaneously. That would not be possible in a conventional teaching because doing good (dana) and refraining from evil (sila) are two distinct activities. And right understanding (bhavana) is a third, distinct activity. Only in the Buddha's Dhamma are all three disciplines developed together, in one(supramundane) moment. Ken H #115522 From: Vince Date: Tue Jun 7, 2011 2:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Saarakkana Sutta and Sotapannas cerovzt@... Send Email Send Email Dear Shalini you wrote: > Vince has pulled this sutta out from the huge ocean of suttas and I am glad. I'm happy to see you enjoy it. This Sutta really put some joy for the practice, This is a needed factor for the progress. Without some inner joy we can fall in risk to become a concepts machine! :). I think anyone can check how that factor influence a growing of understanding in reality, although many times the world press to the other side.. I'm still quite newbie of Abhidhamma so mostly I'm learning here from the people with more time inside this. So thanks to yours for your useful thoughts :) best, Vince. #115523 From: Shalini S Date: Tue Jun 7, 2011 2:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] is it ok to get attached to one's teacher shalnew KO: we cannot use this statement from patthana out of this context, it was not meant to be in this way. Shalini: I guess this particular Patthana statement has to be taken with a lot of wise consideration indeed. I think that even though unwholesome conditions may lead to wholesome states, the consequence of the unwholesomeness still holds good. One finally will have to struggle to melt that unwholesome condition. So if its possible to avoid such unwholesome states and generate wholesome states only through wholesome ones, its the best. Yes, its true that such attachment should generally not be encouraged at all, but the fact is that when it does happen naturally, it can be accepted to some extent. I have no idea if there is an equivalent of the term devotion in the Abhidhamma, which is a little different from "faith", but a little devotion, a little attachment and affection towards the Buddha and the teacher when it occurs, does help in my experience, though I wouldnt put efforts to develop unwholesome attachments just because it can give rise to wholesome states. A balanced and cautious reflection of this Patthana statement is definitely worth. Also, to reflect maybe that there is also a statement in Patthana if I remember correctly that some wholesome states can also support unwholesome ones, Nina, is this right? I was not able to search for it, but I do vaguely remember so, but I am not sure. - metta Shalini #115524 From: Vince Date: Tue Jun 7, 2011 3:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The writings of Burmese Sayadaws Dear Nina you wrote: > In Thailand I heard about the kaliyana putthujana, the upright person. Even a > non-ariyan can be such a person with full confidence in the Buddha's > teaching. Having confidence, being sincere, listening to the Dhamma again and > again and beginning to be aware of any reality appearing through one of the > six doors. No need to fear an unhappy rebirth. that's a nice view, and also it sounds logical if somebody feels Dhamma as the true teaching. I think. Many people says if rebirth is real it would not be a problem, because now we don't remember previous lives. However, there are quite episodes of Petas remembering previous lives as the cause of their sufferings. A few years ago I bought a second-hand edition of the Vimanavatthu. I think the Buddhist literature show the humans, devas and gods with the trend to forget past lives. However, in the unfortunate realms there is a trend to remember past lives and errors. Also when we feel worldly happiness we forget the past. However, when we experience suffering many images from the past comes to the mind. That's strange, or I cannot understand the reason. best, Vince. #115525 From: han tun Date: Tue Jun 7, 2011 4:15 am Subject: Patthaana Pali Chanting. Dear Shalini, Have you got Pa.t.thaana Paa.li Chanting? This chanting, for me, is spiritually and mentally very invigorating. The following link was uploaded by my very good Kalaya.na-mitta Mr Chew of Malaysia, also a member of DSG. http://patthana.blogspot.com/2008/05/patthana-pali-chanting.html Please read the following extracts: 9. upanissayapaccayo'ti: wholesome conditioning wholesome: purimaa purimaa kusalaa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m kusalaana.m dhammaana.m upanissayapaccayena paccayo. wholesome conditioning unwholesome: purimaa purimaa kusalaa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m akusalaana.m dhammaana.m kesa~nci upanissayapaccayena paccayo. unwholesome conditioning unwholesome: purimaa purimaa akusalaa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m akusalaana.m dhammaana.m upaniyasayapaccayena paccayo. unwholesome conditioning wholesome: purimaa purimaa akusalaa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m kusalaana.m dhammaana.m kesa~nci upanissayapaccayena paccayo. -------------------- Of course, it does not contain the detail explanations that you would find in Nina's book. http://www.archive.org/stream/TheConditionalityOfLife/cond.txt Kind regards, Han #115526 From: connie Date: Tue Jun 7, 2011 5:08 am Subject: like gangbusters nichiconn dear sarah, friends, Ajita: About the head and head-splitting, Bavari asks (this question), please explain that O Gracious One, please remove our doubts, O seer. Buddha: Know ignorance is called the head, and understanding is the head-splitter, joined with confidence, mindfulness, concentration, desire, and energy. ancient-buddhist-texts.net/Texts-and-Translations/Parayanavagga/ peace, connie #115527 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 7, 2011 8:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Acharn Sujin, was: More on Ajahn Naeb Dear G, Op 6-jun-2011, om 17:13 heeft G. het volgende geschreven: > Thank you all for the reply's; how do I find out more about Acharn > Sujin's teaching? ------ N: I wrote: My Time with Acharn Sujin, you can find this on Zolag Web, let me know whether there is any trouble. You are welcome if you have any questions. ------ I just quote a little from it to give you an impression: < Acharn Sujin always stressed that there is no rule about how one should develop understanding and that one cannot direct what object appears at a particular moment. I find this most reasonable, because whatever is experienced by citta is conditioned. We went to different temples, also in the province. People asked questions about vipassan and concentration. Although I was just learning Thai, Acharn Sujin made me talk as well. I enjoyed simple life in the province, without any fringes. People treated me as one of them, and that is what made me happy. People asked whether slowing down ones movements would be helpful for the development of vipassan. Acharn Sujin asked one person to run and to find out whether there is any difference as to what realities are appearing. The conclusion was : it is all the same. True, seeing is always seeing, no matter we run or sit. Seeing is a citta, an ultimate reality that should be known as it is, non-self. I heard a dog barking and asked whether hearing a dog is an object of insight. She explained that hearing just sound is different from thinking of a dog. I listened, but only many years later I understood the point. People also asked: Is this kusala (wholesome), is that akusala (unwholesome). Her answer was: You can only know for yourself. Nobody else can tell you. She also explained that it would be very easy if someone else were to tell you: Do first this, then that, and you will make progress. Her advice always was : There are no rules, there is no specific order of the objects insight can be developed of. In the whole of the Tipiaka we learn about realities that arise because of conditions and are non-self. Now, also in the practice we have to be consistent, how can we force ourselves to be aware of specific objects. She kept on warning us of subtle clinging to progress, to result. Expectations are lobha, attachment. She repeated many times: Dont expect anything. We should not expect anything from ourselves nor from others. Expectations bring sorrow. I am grateful for her example in this matter, and her example of patience and equanimity. Some people heavily critized her, but she was always patient and calmly explained about cause and effect: what cause will bring what effect. We should be clear about this. Do we want only calm or is our aim understanding? > ------ Nina. #115528 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 7, 2011 8:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] is it ok to get attached to one's teacher Dear Shalini, Op 7-jun-2011, om 4:41 heeft Shalini S het volgende geschreven: > Also, to reflect maybe that there is also a statement in Patthana > if I remember correctly that some wholesome states can also support > unwholesome ones, Nina, is this right? I was not able to search for > it, but I do vaguely remember so, but I am not sure. ------ N: Correct, kusala can condition akusala. For example, when you have conceit about your kusala, this conditions akusala. As to the opposite, akusala conditions kusala: when attachment arises it can be an object of awareness so that we learn: this is not my attachment, it is just a conditioned dhamma. We should not flee from akusala dhammas, they can and should be objects of awareness, otherwise they can never be eradicated. ------ Nina. #115529 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 7, 2011 8:48 am Subject: Discussions with Phil in Kaeng Kracan, continued. Dear friends, Kh S: Listening to the Dhamma can condition a deeper understanding of whatever appears, little by little. That is why pariyatti [N: intellectual understanding of the present reality] is a helpful condition for pa.tipatti. Pa.ti means a particular [reality] and patti means to reach or approach. [N: pa.tipatti: to reach a particular reality] When there is awareness there can be right understanding of a particular reality [N: that appears]. If there is only intellectual understanding there is no way to understand even one thing, like seeing, touching or thinking. There are many more realities than these which can be known by conditions, according to ones accumulations. Q: When someone listens to a talk about the present moment, but he is not interested at understanding the present moment, would that lead to akusala? Kh S: It depends, there are many levels of kusala, but this is not the way to eradicate akusala. Q: I like to learn by listening, but should I also do what I do not like to do, such as studying books more? Kh S: Is it useful to read without understanding? No matter whether one listens or reads, it can be with understanding more and more deeply. It is not a matter of just going over all the terms, like: seeing is not self. But what is seeing, when it arises? This is very important. In the Buddhas time there were no books. But there were realities to be directly known. He taught about seeing now and that which is seen now, about thinking, like and dislike, everything of this moment now. What you read is what he taught about realities in daily life, each moment. He taught so that people would really understand whatever happens, even at the moments of seeing, thinking, like or dislike, walking, standing. All this he taught, because they are different realities. No person is there. This is important so that one can understand reality. ----------- Nina. #115530 From: Shalini S Date: Tue Jun 7, 2011 11:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana Pali Chanting. shalnew Thanks for the links Han. Goenkaji chanting of the Patthana Pali is played on one of the mornings of a 10-day retreat and I have indeed found it to be very invigorating and powerful. I just started reading Nina's book...and i can only say wow thanks Nina for your book. much metta, Shalini --- On Mon, 6/6/11, han tun wrote: From: han tun Subject: [dsg] Patthaana Pali Chanting. To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, June 6, 2011, 11:15 PM Dear Shalini, Have you got Pa.t.thaana Paa.li Chanting? This chanting, for me, is spiritually and mentally very invigorating. The following link was uploaded by my very good Kalaya.na-mitta Mr Chew of Malaysia, also a member of DSG. http://patthana.blogspot.com/2008/05/patthana-pali-chanting.html Please read the following extracts: 9. upanissayapaccayo'ti: wholesome conditioning wholesome: purimaa purimaa kusalaa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m kusalaana.m dhammaana.m upanissayapaccayena paccayo. wholesome conditioning unwholesome: purimaa purimaa kusalaa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m akusalaana.m dhammaana.m kesa~nci upanissayapaccayena paccayo. unwholesome conditioning unwholesome: purimaa purimaa akusalaa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m akusalaana.m dhammaana.m upaniyasayapaccayena paccayo. unwholesome conditioning wholesome: purimaa purimaa akusalaa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m kusalaana.m dhammaana.m kesa~nci upanissayapaccayena paccayo. -------------------- Of course, it does not contain the detail explanations that you would find in Nina's book. http://www.archive.org/stream/TheConditionalityOfLife/cond.txt Kind regards, Han #115531 From: Shalini S Date: Tue Jun 7, 2011 11:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Saarakkana Sutta and Sotapannas shalnew Thanks Kevin for the kind words and your information of Cuula Sotapanna is useful. I was looking exactly for such leads to clarify my own doubts. you wrote: > The total possible is 12 births when you count the births in the Pure Abodes, 7 if you do not. In the Suttas, the Buddha did not include the births in the Pure Abodes, it seems. It triggerred a curiosity in me, call it purely a dry curiosity.. how did the Buddha come up with these magic numbers, like 7 for Sotapanna or 1 for Sakadagami? For Anagami it kind of makes sense perhaps, because such an individual has removed almost all the fetters related to this earth loka or the deva loka and has attained perhaps to the formless jhanas, so his birth resonates in the pure abodes. But why 7 and why not 8 for a Sotapanna? I dont mean to split hairs on this topic, but was really wondering what could be the cause and effect basis for such numbers for rebirth? Does any suttas or the abhidhamma talk about this? Oh but I do agree that whether it is 7 or 8 should not matter at all to one way or other, but as I told it is out of dry curiosity and wonder, if the answers are there in the tipitaka why not? - metta Shalini #115532 From: Shalini S Date: Tue Jun 7, 2011 12:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] is it ok to get attached to one's teacher shalnew Thanks Nina for the clarification and I have started to read your book on conditionality and also the concise one provided by Han's links. you wrote: As to the opposite, akusala conditions kusala: when attachment arises it can be an object of awareness so that we learn: this is not my attachment, it is just a conditioned dhamma. We should not flee from akusala dhammas, they can and should be objects of awareness, otherwise they can never be eradicated. S: i "Preceding unwholesome dhammas (akusala citta, lobha, dosa, etc.) are related to subsequent wholesome dhammas by powerful dependence condition" In the context of upanissaya paccaya then, do you think that learning from any unwholesome state by being objectively aware of it and arising of the wisdom that it is a conditioned dhamma... is that a subsequent wholesome dhamma by "powerful dependence condition"...of attachment? I thought not so...because the upanissaya paccaya conditions seem to occur 'naturally' without much effort at all due to 'dependence' or 'powerful support'. But to be aware objectively of unwholesome dhammas...whew...that requires quite an effort upstream ... it really took me a few 10-day retreats to observe at least a few of the pains and the anger/aversion arising out of it with some amount of objectivity and with the understanding that these dhammas are arising by a law of cause and effect and its just not 'my anger' or 'my pain'.... and even now if the dhammas are intense... I struggle with my habitual reactions. But that said, my doubt here is just that - upanissaya paccaya statements does not seem to apply to the example you have given, because I feel that the arising of attachment does not necessarily act as a powerful inducement or strong dependency factor or even a supporting factor for arising objectivity and wisdom with regards to the unwholesomeness? And in the example I gave, a little attachment to the teacher might support the kusala of absorbing and practicing the instructions sincerely as arising out of the dependency of the conditions.. i mean that the kusala following the akusala here can be quite natural due to the dependency factor of the two? Just an attempt at understanding the paccaya statement. I also want to balance my statements about attachment to teacher as I told earlier that I am really not a supporter of attachment to teachers... :-). That attachment can become upanissaya for more attachment, is really very obvious and finally it may become so unwholesome that even if perhaps an unworthy teacher if at all, gives a false instruction we do not have the mind to recognise that... theres the danger and caution to be exercised I guess and definitely when such attachment arises one should put efforts to accept it and let go of the habitual multiplication of that attachment. - metta Shalini #115533 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 7, 2011 1:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The writings of Burmese Sayadaws Dear Vince, Op 7-jun-2011, om 5:30 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > However, in the unfortunate realms there is a trend to remember past > lives and errors. ----- N: Yes, because when birth is opapatika, spontaneous, (or apparitional) beings can remember the past. There are four ways of birth: apparitionally born, moisture-born, egg- born and those born by way of the womb. Those who are born in the hell planes, the plane of the petas and the animal world may be egg-born, womb-born, putrescence- (moisture-) born, and of apparitional generation. (Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 182 gives many details) ------ > V: Also when we feel worldly happiness we forget the past. > However, when we experience suffering many images from the past > comes to the > mind. That's strange, or I cannot understand the reason. ----- N: It shows that sa~n~naa is anattaa, beyond control. There are conditions to remember. ------- Nina. #115534 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 7, 2011 1:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana Pali Chanting. Dear Han, Op 7-jun-2011, om 6:15 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Have you got Pa.t.thaana Paa.li Chanting? ------ N: Thank you very much for this link, Nina. #115535 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 7, 2011 1:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana Pali Chanting. Dear Shalini, Op 7-jun-2011, om 13:06 heeft Shalini S het volgende geschreven: > I just started reading Nina's book...and i can only say wow thanks > Nina for your book. ----- N: I appreciate your interest. If you have questions, you are welcome. Nina. #115536 From: Shalini S Date: Tue Jun 7, 2011 2:38 pm Subject: the quality of Bahusacca shalnew Reflecting on the quality called Bahusacca inspired me to start reading the suttas and the abhidhamma and come into this beneficial dhamma study group. So thought I will share this definition of Bahusacca ( well learned ) in the Nagara Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an07/an07.063.than.html "Just as the royal frontier fortress has many weapons stored, both arrows & things to be hurled, for the protection of those within and to ward off those without; in the same way, the disciple of the noble ones has heard much, has retained what he has heard, has stored what he has heard. Whatever teachings are admirable in the beginning, admirable in the middle, admirable in the end, that — in their meaning & expression — proclaim the holy life that is entirely complete & pure: those he has listened to often, retained, discussed, accumulated, examined with his mind, and well-penetrated in terms of his views. With learning as his weapons, the disciple of the noble ones abandons what is unskillful, develops what is skillful, abandons what is blameworthy, develops what is blameless, and looks after himself with purity. With this fourth true quality is he endowed." So this is one of the seven qualities (sadhammas) that the Buddha highly recommends to be a "disciple of the noble ones". I believe that this quality includes not only intellectual learning and understanding at the hearing and reasoning level but also on the experiential level. This is also recommended by Ven.Ledi Sayadaw as "For those persons who look forward to meeting the next Buddha S sana, d na, uposatha-sìla, and the seven saddhammas are the essentials." which I interpret as for those who do not or cannot really make it to the stage of Sotapanna in this very lifetime for whatever reason. Bahusacca is one of the seven saddhamas which includes faith(saddha), hiri(conscience), otappa(fear of unwholesomeness), viriya(effort), sati(mindfulness) and panna(discernment or wisdom) Enjoy, Shalini #115537 From: "philip" Date: Tue Jun 7, 2011 3:12 pm Subject: Re: Discussions with Phil at Kaeng Kracan, continuation. philofillet Hi Nina Thank you so much for transcribing parts of the discussions, great stuff. I will just make one small protest, I don't think I said the below. > Phil: I have hiri and ottappa (shame and fear of blame) with regard > to not knowing realities. I think I probably said that I had read that we have to (at some point when understanding develops deeply) have hiri and otappa about not knowing realities, I read that or heard it somewhere, and I think it was not A. Sujin necessarily but perhaps Sayadaw U Silananda. In any case, there is no such hiri otappa for me, for me hiri otappa or what I take to be hiri otappa are related exclusively to conventional behaviour, situations and stories about people and how my behaviour is harmful or not to myself and others....not about realities. Thanks again! Metta, Phil p.s While I'm at it, I will say that if I remember correctly in the talk on the last evening (what a lovely evening it was, the whole trip to KK is like a blissful dream now) when I explained my belief that there is a kind of protection provided by conventional sila within which there are better conditions for deeper understanding to develop, I was kind of self-deprecating about it as though it was a self-interested theory, but I take back that self-deprecation, I believe quite firmly that it is in line with the Dhamma.... #115538 From: Kevin F Date: Tue Jun 7, 2011 4:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Saarakkana Sutta and Sotapannas Hi Shalini :) Shalini: It triggerred a curiosity in me, call it purely a dry curiosity.. how did the Buddha come up with these magic numbers, like 7 for Sotapanna or 1 for Sakadagami? For Anagami it kind of makes sense perhaps, because such an individual has removed almost all the fetters related to this earth loka or the deva loka and has attained perhaps to the formless jhanas, so his birth resonates in the pure abodes. But why 7 and why not 8 for a Sotapanna? I dont mean to split hairs on this topic, but was really wondering what could be the cause and effect basis for such numbers for rebirth? Does any suttas or the abhidhamma talk about this? Oh but I do agree that whether it is 7 or 8 should not matter at all to one way or other, but as I told it is out of dry curiosity and wonder, if the answers are there in the tipitaka why not? - metta Shalini Kevin: Hi Shalini. Such is the power of cutting the fetters. At the stage of sotapanna, the first three fetters are cut. They are self-view, doubt or uncertainty about the teachings, and attachment to rites and rituals. It is because of ignorance, clinging, and craving that there is rebirth. Though a sotapanna has not cut the higher fetters off, with the ceasing of self-view, the main fetter, the round of rebirth begins to come to a halt. Some being without self-view has "broken through" the biggest barrier to final nibbana. It is only a matter of time before all the other fetters are cut. The Sotapanna has no doubt about the teachings. Wherever he goes, no matter what he is told, he knows that all conditioned dhammas are anicca, anatta, and dukkha. There is sureity of ending. His mindstream and the Dhamma are inextricably linked, due to the high level of accumulation of wisdom. Why is it 7 and not 8 lifetimes exactly? I am not sure. Perhaps the Buddha looked into the past and saw that there never was a Sotapanna that goes beyond 7 births in the sense sphere? I am not sure. ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." #115539 From: "philip" Date: Tue Jun 7, 2011 6:36 pm Subject: Re: Saarakkana Sutta and Sotapannas philofillet Hi Shalini I have wondered about the seven as well. I read once that the number five is used in some language (forget which) to indicate an indefinite quantifier such as "several" or "a few" and I have wondered if that were the case here. I guess not, Pali scolars would have informed us of it. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Shalini S wrote: > > Thanks Kevin for the kind words and your information of Cuula Sotapanna is useful. I was looking exactly for such leads, to clarify my own doubts. > > you wrote: > > The total possible is 12 births when you count the births in the Pure > Abodes, 7 if you do not. In the Suttas, the Buddha did not include the births > in the Pure Abodes, it seems. > > It triggerred a curiosity in me, call it purely a dry curiosity.. how did the Buddha come up with these magic numbers, like 7 for Sotapanna or 1 for Sakadagami? For Anagami it kind of makes sense perhaps, because such an individual has removed almost all the fetters related to this earth loka or the deva loka and has attained perhaps to the formless jhanas, so his birth resonates in the pure abodes. But why 7 and why not 8 for a Sotapanna? I dont mean to split hairs on this topic, but was really wondering what could be the cause and effect basis for such numbers for rebirth? Does any suttas or the abhidhamma talk about this? > > Oh but I do agree that whether it is 7 or 8 should not matter at all to one way or other, but as I told it is out of dry curiosity and wonder, if the answers are there in the tipitaka why not? > > - metta > Shalini > > > > > > > > > > > #115540 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 7, 2011 7:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussions with Phil at Kaeng Kracan, continuation. Dear Philip, Op 7-jun-2011, om 17:12 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Phil: I have hiri and ottappa (shame and fear of blame) with regard > > to not knowing realities. > > I think I probably said that I had read that we have to (at some > point when understanding develops deeply) have hiri and otappa > about not knowing realities, ------ N: Sorry if I misunderstood you. Some passages were not very audible and I had to go back several times and listen again. Anyway, listen and listen again is also good. Kh Sujin also explained that there can be hiri/ottappa as to not being aware, but this is more refined. They accompany all levels of kusala. ------ Nina. #115541 From: "G." Date: Tue Jun 7, 2011 2:20 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Acharn Sujin, was: More on Ajahn Naeb gleblanc108 Thank you for your reply. Am I correct in understanding that Acharn Sujin teaches in the lineage of Ajahn Naeb? Also, which title on Zolog would best encapsulate the practice of Vipassana as taught by Acharn Sujin. Thank you Greg --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear G, > Op 6-jun-2011, om 17:13 heeft G. het volgende geschreven: > > > Thank you all for the reply's; how do I find out more about Acharn > > Sujin's teaching? > ------ > N: I wrote: My Time with Acharn Sujin, you can find this on Zolag > Web, let me know whether there is any trouble. You are welcome if you > have any questions. <....> #115542 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jun 7, 2011 9:47 pm Subject: Buddhist Bliss! Friends: The final safe State of supreme unified Bliss! At Savatthi the Blessed Buddha once said to his monks: I will teach you the uncorrupted state, & the way to the uncorrupted state... Bhikkhus, I will teach you the truth, & the way leading to this absolute truth... I will teach you the far shore ... the subtle ... the sublime ... the difficult to see ... the unageing ... the stable ... the safe ... the undisintegrating & undecaying state ... the unmanifested ... the unproliferated ... the unclinging ... untroubled silence ... the peaceful ... the supreme bliss ... the fortunate ... the wonderful & amazing ... the cooling of craving ... disillusion ... purity ... freedom ... the island shelter ... the assured asylum ... the final refuge ... the deathless destination ... Nibb�na... Listen and pay alert attention to that which will lead you to lasting happiness! And what, Bhikkhus is this Nibb�na ? The absence of all Greed, the stilling of all Hate, & the ending of all Ignorance: This is called the uncorrupted state of Nibb�na... And what, Bhikkhus, is this very good way leading to this undying state of Nibb�na ? <....> These are ways leading to this Nibb�na... I have now taught you Nibb�na... and the way leading to this Nibb�na... Whatever should be done, Bhikkhus, by a considerate teacher out of sympathy for his disciples, wishing only their welfare, that I have now done for you. There are roots of trees, Bhikkhus, there are empty huts. Meditate, do not neglect your meditation, Bhikkhus, otherwise you may come to regret it later. This is our instruction to you... Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nik�ya. Book IV [369-73] Section 43: On The Unconsctructed. The way to the uninclined: 13-44. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Sam�hita _/\_ * <....> #115543 From: han tun Date: Wed Jun 8, 2011 12:36 am Subject: Confusion between Faith and Love Dear Shalini, You had kindly quoted, in message 115500, a passage from the Abhidhamma in Daily Life, by Ashin Janakaabhiva.msa, Chapter Three, Kusala Cetasikas. ---------- Confusion between Faith and Love Today even virtuous persons confuse faith with love or affection. Many devotee will revere Dhamma teachers with pleasant voice and personalities who give good instructions. If they respect and honour them only for their good ethical conduct, it is saddha (faith). But if they become attached to such teachers like their own relatives it is mixture of faith and love. In Gotama Buddha's time, disciples such as Venerable Vakkali and Minister Channa not only revered the Buddha but also loved him personally. So although faith was present in their hearts, there also was samyojana (attachment) which is unwholesome. Some people accept doctrines and instructions through personal attachment; such attachments sometimes can promote knowledge and wisdom and enhance fulfilment of parami perfections. If wholesome mental factors are cultivated on account of personal attachments, then it is beneficial. In the Patthana Pali it is said, "Akusalo dhamma kusalassa dhammassa upanissaya paccayena paccayo - unwholesome mental factors can support the formation of wholesome mental factors." So even small unwholesome mental attachments can lead to good states of mind. In this view, teachers and preachers should teach the Dhamma with sincerity and goodwill to promote such developments. And disciples and devotees, on their part, should properly practise what is taught, so as to get beneficial results. ---------- Han: It is a very good reminder. In the CMA on page 281, it is stated that, "In the development of the faculties, faith and wisdom are to be balanced to avoid the extremes of blind credulity and intellectual cleverness". When I revere a Teacher, I revere him not only for his teachings but also for his "good ethical conduct" [as mentioned above] which we call it "sikkhaa-samaadhi" of the Teacher. We consider such a good Teacher in the same category as Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha, and the Parents. Just to show my appreciation for your useful quote. Kind regards, Han #115544 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jun 8, 2011 1:17 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Discussions with Phil at Kaeng Kracan, continuation. philofillet Hi Nina Not to worry. It seems that because of self thinking about what people think I understand is more important than the understanding itself! Thanks again for your transcriptions. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Philip, > Op 7-jun-2011, om 17:12 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > > > Phil: I have hiri and ottappa (shame and fear of blame) with regard > > > to not knowing realities. > > > > I think I probably said that I had read that we have to (at some > > point when understanding develops deeply) have hiri and otappa > > about not knowing realities, > ------ > N: Sorry if I misunderstood you. Some passages were not very audible > and I had to go back several times and listen again. Anyway, listen > and listen again is also good. > Kh Sujin also explained that there can be hiri/ottappa as to not > being aware, but this is more refined. They accompany all levels of > kusala. > > ------ > Nina. > > > > > #115545 From: Shalini S Date: Wed Jun 8, 2011 1:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Confusion between Faith and Love shalnew Dear Han, thanks for your kind words and the useful information you give about revering the teachers. It so resonates with my feelings. And I can only say Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu, to you, Nina, and others in this group, for clarifying my feelings and thoughts. I feel so inspired in here.. :-) and my practice sees some uplifted energy ever since I started to read here. As Vince was telling, it gives some joy in practice. And I will keep in mind, these three useful quotes you wrote: >"In the development of the faculties, faith and wisdom are to be balanced to avoid the extremes of blind credulity and intellectual cleverness". >When I revere a Teacher, I revere him not only for his teachings but also for his "good ethical conduct" [as mentioned above] which we call it "sikkhaa-samaadhi" of the Teacher. >We consider such a good Teacher in the same category as Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha, and the Parents. sadhu, sadhu, sadhu! :-), much metta Shalini #115546 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 8, 2011 7:09 am Subject: Discussions with Phil in Kaeng Kracan, continued. Dear friends, Kh S: People today say that when one is reading one understands. But people think according to their accumulations, rightly or wrongly. Q: One should come to understand ones accumulations. Kh S: You have accumulations now to be here. Q: I am wondering whether one should do certain things. Kh S: This is only thinking, it all depends on conditons. Jon: Many people do not understand what pa.tipatti [practice] is. Kh S: Now we are talking about realities and this is not pa.tipatti yet. But when there is more understanding the citta turns to being aware and there is no thinking about other things. One does not go astray to other objects when awareness is aware of that which has arisen. When one is trying to do [special] things in order to have understanding, this is not the understanding of that which has arisen already by conditions. So, how could one, in that way, understand reality right now as that which is conditioned? It is there because it has arisen and it passes away. There can be more understanding not by thinking that one knows it or by thinking about other things. We can understand the characteristic of awareness and of vitakka (thinking) which touches the reality, and of other realities. We can have understanding not by thinking, but when realities appear. When hardness or softness appear no words are needed, because as soon as a reality has arisen and passed away instantly no one can express this by words. Even right now when seeing, hearing, touching or thinking appear, pa~n~naa can understand what appears as just a reality, not permanent. ------------ Nina. #115547 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 8, 2011 7:48 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] is it ok to get attached to one's teacher Dear Shalini, appreciating your questions. Op 7-jun-2011, om 14:05 heeft Shalini S het volgende geschreven: > you wrote: > As to the opposite, akusala conditions kusala: when attachment arises > it can be an object of awareness so that we learn: this is not my > attachment, it is just a conditioned dhamma. We should not flee from > akusala dhammas, they can and should be objects of awareness, > otherwise they can never be eradicated. > > S: > "Preceding unwholesome dhammas (akusala citta, lobha, dosa, etc.) > are related to subsequent wholesome dhammas by powerful dependence > condition" > In the context of upanissaya paccaya then, do you think that > learning from any unwholesome state by being objectively aware of > it and arising of the wisdom that it is a conditioned dhamma... is > that a subsequent wholesome dhamma by "powerful dependence > condition"...of attachment? ------- N: I quote what I wrote: < Akusala can also be a natural decisive support-condition for kusala. Because of aversion towards akusala vipka or attachment to kusala vipka someone may perform good deeds. He may regret the akusala he performed in the past and then, in order to counteract it, he performs kusala. We read in the Pahna (same section, 423, V): After having killed, (one) offers the offering, undertakes the precept, fulfils the duty of observance, develops jhna, develops insight, develops Path, develops superknowledge, develops attainment, to counteract it. The same is said with regard to other kinds of evil deeds, they can be a natural decisive support-condition for kusala.> Pa~n~naa sees the disadvantage of akusala and then develops insight, for example. -------- > > S: I thought not so...because the upanissaya paccaya conditions > seem to occur 'naturally' without much effort at all due to > 'dependence' or 'powerful support'. But to be aware objectively of > unwholesome dhammas...whew...that requires quite an effort > upstream ... it really took me a few 10-day retreats to observe at > least a few of the pains and the anger/aversion arising out of it > with some amount of objectivity and with the understanding that > these dhammas are arising by a law of cause and effect and its just > not 'my anger' or 'my pain'.... and even now if the dhammas are > intense... I struggle with my habitual reactions. -------- N: It all depends on sati what object it takes. It is not a matter of labelling, observing or trying to pinpoint what arises, as you well know, I think. I used to believe that I could be aware of aversion, but Kh Sujin explained: it is still your dosa. In other words, it is more thinking about 'the story' of my dosa instead of going straight to the characteristic of dosa. As I also understood, before the first stage of insight, the direct understanding of naama as naama and of ruupa as ruupa, thus, directly knowing their different characteristics, there cannot be a clear understanding of the characteristics of the different cetasikas when they appear. So, it is no good trying to know them. Then there would still be a surreptious thinking about "stories" or concepts, without our knowing this. Even when we do not call cetasikas lobha or dosa. ------- > > S: But that said, my doubt here is just that - upanissaya paccaya > statements does not seem to apply to the example you have given, > because I feel that the arising of attachment does not necessarily > act as a powerful inducement or strong dependency factor or even a > supporting factor for arising objectivity and wisdom with regards > to the unwholesomeness? ------ N: It depends on pa~n~naa that sees the urgency of satipa.t.thaana now, without delay, no matter what reality presents itself: kusala, akusala, pleasant or unpleasant. ------- > S:And in the example I gave, a little attachment to the teacher > might support the kusala of absorbing and practicing the > instructions sincerely as arising out of the dependency of the > conditions.. i mean that the kusala following the akusala here can > be quite natural due to the dependency factor of the two? ------- N: When satipa.t.thaana is being developed there is no interest at thinking of persons or teachers, one is "one's own" teacher. The aim is understanding of whatever reality appears and not having more kusala or inducing it by being dependent on someone else. But from your further statement I see that you understand the disadvantage of dependence on a teacher. ------- Nina. #115548 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 8, 2011 8:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] is it ok to get attached to one's teacher Dear Shalini, (Lukas & all), I'm really appreciating all your comments and your keen interest in the Dhamma. Of course you're never speaking "beyond your scope" and I'm glad you encourage everyone to keep sharing what they've found useful. --- On Mon, 6/6/11, Shalini S wrote: >Especially I found the below words something to really reflect on: In the Patthana Pali it is said, "Akusalo dhamma kusalassa dhammassa upanissaya paccayena paccayo - unwholesome mental factors can support the formation of wholesome mental factors." ... S: Yes, as others have also said, this is correct. This is a very wide condition by which almost any dhamma can condition kusala or akusala cittas and cetasikas. Your further quote and comments were interesting. I'd say that understanding grows *in spite of*, rather than *due to* personal attachments. There are bound to be attachments to people including our Dhamma teachers and friends, of course, but just as the Buddha discouraged Vikkali in his attachment to him, preventing him from developing insight, so we can also see that attachments of all kind just lead to grief and blindness. I found this quote helpful that Lukas re-quote Ven Samahita as having given recently: One becomes Calmed by Stilling all Agitation! The brahmin Magandiya asked the Buddha about how to become calmed: Not dwelling in the past, stilled in the present, one prefers no kind of future! Without irritation, without agitation, without regrets, without worry, neither boasting, nor proud, but humble and modest, one is indeed a restrained sage... <....> Sutta-Nipata 849-861 Edited excerpt. ... S: In other words, the "practice" is all about the kind of consciousness and mental factors arising at this moment, the present understanding of what appears now. If there is attachment, agitation or any other unwholesome states, they too are passing dhammas that can be known now. The past has gone, the future hasn't come, but right understanding with detachment can be developed now. Metta Sarah p.s Lukas, thanks for sharing a very nice summary of the recording you were listening to en route to your retreat. As you said: "Detachment.....detachment this is the goal. Detachment from (the) idea of Self....detachment from clinging to seeing, detachment to visible object." Also, "...nothing different there than present moment" ad "...do we look for something, do we want more attachment or detachment?" Very good:-) ======= #115549 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 8, 2011 8:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Saarakkana Sutta and Sotapannas Dear Shalini & Vince, --- On Mon, 6/6/11, Shalini S wrote: >I also see an interesting note at the end which states: "An encouraging message for many! Cf. the end of MN 22, and also the charming image of the new-born calf in MN 34. The Commentary (MA) to MN 22 says such people are termed "lesser stream-winners" (cuulasotaapannaa)." ... S: I quoted from MN 22 and the commentary referred to recently in my post to Kevin about cula-sotapannas who have reached the second stage of insight: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/115372 >S:....Also, in the Alagadduupama sutta (Snake Simile), transl by Nyanaponika, it says: "Monks, in this Teaching that was so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those who have simply faith in me, simply love for me, are 'all destined for heaven'." The commentary note to this passage as given by Nyanaponika adds: "'Those who have simply faith in me': This refers to persons devoted to the practice of Insight-meditation (Vipassaka-puggalaa). When monks are seated after having got a firm footing in Insight–meditation, there arises in them a unique and fully absorbing faith in, and love for, the Master of the Ten Powers (i.e the Buddha), (Sub-Cy: because in pursuance of their Insight-meditation they have received proof that 'The Dhamma is well-proclaimed'). "Through that faith and love they are as if taken by the hand and transported to heaven. They are said to be of 'assured-destiny (niyatagatika)' i.e. of the final attainment of ...Nibbana. The Elder Monks of old say that such Bhikkhus are Lesser Stream-enterers (cuu.la or baala-sotaapanna; Vism 703)." Metta Sarah ===== #115550 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 8, 2011 8:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna Hi Kevin, Many thx for all your kind comments and careful consideration of my comments. --- On Wed, 1/6/11, Kevin F wrote: >Hard is it to find any truth in this wallowy pit of samsara, things being based on condition as they are. The fog is so deep. ... S: Very true! ... >After many lifetimes of suffering all types of sufferings, I have found Good Friends, dedicated to the Master's bidding. Seeing such a bright mind, I am happy and honored and delighted. ... S: Likewise. I greatly appreciate the opportunity to discuss and share Dhamma with you and all our other friends here very much! Metta Sarah ===== #115551 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 8, 2011 8:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions talk: intro Dear Kevin, --- On Thu, 2/6/11, Kevin F wrote: >Inspired by her way of teaching, and also by the Patthana, I would like to start a series of threads here talking about the various paccaya listed in the Abhidhamma, in a very nonchalant, non-predetermined, and open way. I don't aspire to have any preconceived or mapped out pattern in bringing up different points about conditionality, but I do aspire to start new threads with short, simple quotes or statements about the various conditions to help bring them to light. >I hope everybody joins in so we can all learn from each other. .... S: Great idea and I like your approach! Metta Sarah p.s I appreciate your sign-off! ======= #115552 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 8, 2011 9:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Acharn Sujin, was: More on Ajahn Naeb Dear Greg, Op 7-jun-2011, om 16:20 heeft G. het volgende geschreven: > Thank you for your reply. Am I correct in understanding that Acharn > Sujin teaches in the lineage of Ajahn Naeb? Also, which title on > Zolog would best encapsulate the practice of Vipassana as taught by > Acharn Sujin. ------- N: I find it not such a good idea to compare Acharn Naeb and Acharn Sujin, then we are so engaged with persons. What I learnt: there is no specific method, and the development of satipa.t.thaana is not doing special things, preparing oneself or being at a quiet place. Sati is anattaa and it cannot be manipulated or directed. Listening and study lead to more intellectual understanding and this can be the condition for the growth of pa~n~naa that directly understands the realities appearing at the present moment through one of the six doorways. But there should not be any expectations as to the arising of direct understanding. Attachment to understanding obstructs its growth. Only the reality appearing at the present moment can be studied with awareness. Actually the study of the Dhamma is not book study, "it is not in the book" , as Acharn Sujin reminds us. Some of her listeners thought that they should look for other circumstances, different from the present one, in order to have more conditions for sati. To them Acharn Sujin explained that seeing here is the same as seeing in another place, hearing here is the same as hearing in another place. Seeing is always seeing and hearing is always hearing, they are ultimate realities with their unalterable characteristics. We learnt that the Abhidhamma is not theory, that it can be directly applied, and this is satipatthaana. She would often remind us, And how about this moment now? Whatever questions people asked, she would always guide them to the present moment. See her book a Survey of Paramattha dhammas, the last chapters, on Rob Kirkpatrick's website Abhidhamma Vipassana: and also the other articles on this website. and Zolag: ebooks and downloads. all of them give info. You can try my Letters on Vipassana. ------- Nina. #115553 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 8, 2011 9:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] why did the Buddha praise physical seclusion? Dear Alex, Op 6-jun-2011, om 16:46 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > >Once when Acharn Sujin was in a retreat she found out that it does > >not make any difference in which place one is. > > You are absolutely right, except that the above is applicable only > for an Arahant or someone whose unwholesome tendencies were really > suppressed. > ------- N: In order to ever reach arahatship, one should learn right at the beginning that seeing, hearing or whatever arises is the same, wherever one is. From the very beginning one should learn that they are all dhammas. Also akusala. It should be known as a conditioned dhamma. When one tries to suppress it, how can it be known as it is? ------- > > A: Otherwise certain kinds of external objects will serve as > (Decisive) object condition for the hindrances, at the moment of > which bad kamma is made and at those moments awakening cannot occur > for most of us, save the most gifted. > ------- N: Also the hindrances should be known as conditioned dhammas. Sure, this is not easy, but first the difference between the characteristic of naama and the characteristic of ruupa should be directly known. That is the first stage of vipassanaa. When we are learning more about naama and ruupa and begin to be mindful of them when they appear, there are no hindrances at the moments of study and considering realities. ------- > > A: I wonder, why did the Buddha praise physical seclusion and > becoming a Bhikkhu/ni ? Why did He create such an order and > encouraged people to join it? Ex: Nanda. If any place is the right > place, would Nanda become an Arahant (or even Anagami) being a lay > person as fast as being a Bhikkhu? > ------ N: This depends on accumulations, people have different inclinations. But to monks, nuns and laypeople the Buddha taught satipa.t.thaana: be aware of realities no matter what one's activities are, while eating, walking, standing, etc. There are only naama and ruupa! ----- Nina. #115554 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 8, 2011 10:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Acharn Sujin, was: More on Ajahn Naeb Dear Greg, Welcome to DSG! I'm interested to know where you live and how you came to have an interest in the Teachings of Ajahn Naeb (& A.Sujin). --- On Tue, 7/6/11, G. wrote: >...Am I correct in understanding that Acharn Sujin teaches in the lineage of Ajahn Naeb? Also, which title on Zolog would best encapsulate the practice of Vipassana as taught by Acharn Sujin. ... S: I think the easiest thing would also be to listen to A.Sujin for yourself. It's very easy to do so. Just go to this site: http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ Then click on the link at the top which says sth like "audio discussions with Khun Sujin". Just start listening to the first one you come to and let us know how you get on. Nina is also transcribing parts of a part-edited discussion series, mainly between Phil (who posts here) and K.Sujin. This can be found at the end of the series of audio discussions. Highly recommended for anyone! Metta Sarah ====== #115555 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 8, 2011 10:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna Dear Vince, --- On Tue, 31/5/11, Vince wrote: >to repeat the problem: if sotapannas can reborn in a human state, it would mean they can break precepts in a following rebirth. Therefore, the idea of a perfect sila for all sotapannas doesn't seem to have a real foundation. ... S: It would not be possible for a sotapanna in any lifetime, in any realm to break the precepts. As I mentioned before, I'm not aware of any examples of sotapannas reborn in the human realm, but if there was rebirth in this realm, there would never be any breach of the precepts. .... >And "not for the following lives" also it means "not for the following hours". .... S: Then it would be meaningless, no different from any of us. No point in becoming a sotapanna and eradicating defilements if this just meant for "a few hours"! ... >It doesn't mean they are unmoral but it means they should make an effort to preserve sila. This effort would mean sila is not established. ... S: For the sotapanna, there are other kinds of sila which are developed with higher wisdom, but no virati (abstention) from killing and so on, because there's no thought or temptation to kill, steal, lie, be involved in sexual misconduct or take intoxicants such as alcohol. ... >Problem was to know if sila can be perfect when wisdom still is not. .... S: The defilements are eradicated in stages, starting with the grossest defilements. When wisdom is perfected at the stage of the arahant, even the very subtlest of lobha and moha is eradicated. .... >> S: There is unwavering confidence in the Triple Gem - the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha - those who have followed the path and gained enlightenment. There is no doubt in how magga citta arises. No more wrong view or doubt about the path at all. ... V:> they ignore magga on progress, so they are a new doubts-machine perhaps stronger than before, although in other sense. .... S: I don't understand your comment. For the sotapanna, doubt about the path and the Dhamma has been completely eradicated and will never arise again. ... V:>There are different types of magga citta. >We read: "A. There are eight types of lokuttara citta. There are four types of magga-citta, because there is a magga-citta for each of the four stages of enlightenment" "Abhidhamma in daily life" ... S: This just means that there is one supramundane magga citta which arises at the moment of becoming a sotapanna when all wrong views and doubt are eradicated, one at the moment of becoming a sakadagami, one at the moment of becoming an anagami and one at the moment of becoming an arahant. ... >> S: It is the sotapatti-magga citta that eradicates wrong view and doubt and directly experiences nibbana. The fruition follows immediately and then the reviewing consciousness. There is no falling back. ... V:> Can you define the "falling back"? According teaching there is not a falling-back regarding the three eradicated fetters. For the rest there is a need of some falling-back because still they have attachment. ... S: I mean that once the fetters are eradicated and once there has been this first 'taste' of nibbana, there will never be conditions for those fetters to arise again or for a sotapannas wisdom to be 'lost'. This doesn't mean that there isn't plenty of attachment which will continue to arise. You referred to examples of sotapannas asking questions to the Buddha. There can be many reasons for asking questions. Sometimes we might ask them on behalf of others, for example. We often do this in Bangkok. Give a sutta quote if you like. Btw, thank you for sharing the Sarakaani Sutta translated by Walshe with its notes. I'd read this Sutta before a few times, but never taken note about the Sal tree comment. Very interesting. Also, more good examples of cula sotapannas not going to unhappy rebirths. I appreciated your kind and encouraging note to Han too and all your contributions. Metta Sarah ===== #115556 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 8, 2011 10:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditionality talks: part 1 Hi Kevin, --- On Thu, 2/6/11, Kevin F wrote: >In general we know that cittas and cetasikas always arise together. We know that cetasikas cannot arise without a citta, because it would be simply impossible. But how often do we really think about this? Any cetasika, such as lobha or dosa, arises with a citta. Without citta, the reality of a cetasika, whether it is lobha that attaches, or dosa which is averse, or vedana which feels, etc., cannot arise without a citta. It arises based on that citta. Cetasikas arise based on citta due to Dependence Condition. It depends on citta to occur, or "come into existence". Likewise cetasikas also arise with citta due to Conascence and Mutuality Condition. .... S: And likewise, no citta can arise without (at least seven) cetasikas, also by these conditions. Even though the citta is the 'leader' in experiencing the object as you indicate, without the cetasikas, it could not experience anything. I enjoy reading all your additional comments and reflections on the conditions. Metta Sarah ... p.s. just removing the >>>>:) Sarah: "The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself accumulates when ever it arises." ====== #115557 From: Shalini S Date: Wed Jun 8, 2011 11:12 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] is it ok to get attached to one's teacher shalnew Dear Nina, Thanks for the detailed reply. Bows to your beneficial knowledge and understanding. It is indeed very useful to consider every akusala that arises as an opportunity for learning, and indeed if every akusala becomes a supporting factor with the right development, there is nothing like it! And it will help me to keep that in mind, to see that I dont spend too much time in remorse or repent when sometimes I am unawares angry or any other akusala for that matter and its so much a good idea to counteract it with kusala, to think of asking for forgiveness and pardon and generate metta to the person who I am angry with for example. Thanks for your quotes from the Paihana. And it is clear to me now that the paccaya statement indicating unwholesomeness can be a supporting factor for wholesomeness, does apply to your example, i.e if one has put enough efforts to develop this into a habit and that becomes habitual, otherwise generally unwholesomeness supports unwholesomeness... :-). And it shows in my experience too, after much practice, now without my knowledge many a time a voice now speaks in my head when I am angry with a person - 'hey generate metta towards that person', though this never happenned automatically to me before ( when I just rolled and rolled in the stories as you were telling ). Sometimes without the voice the metta happens ... dhamma is wonderful. And I guess upanissaya is all about things that are habitual in our minds... which hence keeps occuring like a machine under the conditionality law, if we do not make efforts to break the chain where it has to. And once we make the efforts to reverse the chain and make the reverse chain itself a upanissaya paccaya.. that leads to enlightenment...well just a reflection that served to be useful for me. When I say reverse chain, I was speaking of the law of dependent origination..which Patthana is a more like a version of it under the microscope I guess. much metta Shalini #115558 From: Shalini S Date: Wed Jun 8, 2011 11:12 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] is it ok to get attached to one's teacher shalnew Dear Nina, Commenting further on your detailed reply on a different note here: you wrote: The aim is understanding of whatever reality appears and not having more kusala or inducing it by being dependent on someone else" I am not sure how to understand your statement there. And paying alert interest in a teacher is always inspiring in my experience and gratitude for having shown me the Dhamma for the first time gives rise to a reverence which is blameless. Even reading about Buddha's disciples and holding them as Role Models is blameless. Even in the satipatthana or the emphasis on the present moment, even in the moment of reading about the life of a noble teacher or seeing the behavior of a teacher lets say being very compassionate or being in the presence of a teacher, can arise a kusala of inspiration to practice and think "I can be so to, I can attain that too"... i dont know what is the name of that cetasika. And why should I not seek somebody's presence like that.. for the very fact that with such association 'induces' a lot of benefits/kusala for progress? why else does the Buddha say " Asevanā ca bālānam Panditānañca sevanā Pūjā ca pūjaneyyānam Etam mangalamuttamam" in the Mangala sutta emphasizing association with wise people? N: "When satipa.t.thaana is being developed there is no interest at thinking of persons or teachers, one is "one's own" teacher". I hope you must have meant that getting attached excessively to a teacher is not important in the Satipatthana. For the above words implied to me no interest or consideration of a teacher as a person, which is what is my point of disagreement here. If I interpret your statement the way I do now, it seems a little too far to say in satipatthana that one is "one's own teacher". I would say the Buddha said clearly that the teacher points the direction and we need to take the steps and practice the journey ourselves to see the truth, but not to disregard the teacher in our practice. A teacher is like a ship to carry us to the other shore as given in the Nava Sutta, unless a person is a Samyak Buddha or a Pacceka Buddha who can go all by himself. Even Sariputta who was an Arahant was known in fact for this reverance to teachers. And the Nava Sutta ( Ship Sutta ) says: "But if (the man at the river) knows the method and is skilled and wise, by boarding a strong boat equipped with oars and a rudder, he can, with its help, set others across. Even so, he who is experienced and has a well-trained mind, who is learned and dependable, [2] clearly knowing, he can help others to understand who are willing to listen and ready to receive.[3]. The Nava sutta in fact emphasizes the importance of a wise teacher and also of how to be cautious of false teachers. I also read that this sutta was preached in reference to Sariputtas habit when he was on tour of worshipping the direction in which his teacher, Assaji, lived. Others noticed this and said it was a relic of his old brahmanic habit of worshipping the different quarters. But the Buddha said there was no need of Sariputta to do that, for even the devas themselves worshipped him. In the sutta the wise man is compared to a ship (nava) which takes many others across. And Sariputta used to generally follow the Buddha instead of keeping step with him, purely as a display of his reverence. So while we consider the teachings, revering the teacher is just another teaching there I guess, instead of considering him/her as a non-person or a mass of bubbles.. :-). much metta Shalini Serenity comes to those who trade expectations with acceptance. --- On Wed, 6/8/11, Nina van Gorkom wrote: From: Nina van Gorkom Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] is it ok to get attached to one's teacher To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, June 8, 2011, 2:48 AM Dear Shalini, appreciating your questions. Op 7-jun-2011, om 14:05 heeft Shalini S het volgende geschreven: > you wrote: > As to the opposite, akusala conditions kusala: when attachment arises > it can be an object of awareness so that we learn: this is not my > attachment, it is just a conditioned dhamma. We should not flee from > akusala dhammas, they can and should be objects of awareness, > otherwise they can never be eradicated. > > S: > "Preceding unwholesome dhammas (akusala citta, lobha, dosa, etc.) > are related to subsequent wholesome dhammas by powerful dependence > condition" > In the context of upanissaya paccaya then, do you think that > learning from any unwholesome state by being objectively aware of > it and arising of the wisdom that it is a conditioned dhamma... is > that a subsequent wholesome dhamma by "powerful dependence > condition"...of attachment? ------- N: I quote what I wrote: < Akusala can also be a natural decisive support-condition for kusala. Because of aversion towards akusala vipåka or attachment to kusala vipåka someone may perform good deeds. He may regret the akusala he performed in the past and then, in order to counteract it, he performs kusala. We read in the “Paììhåna” (same section, § 423, V): “After having killed, (one) offers the offering, undertakes the precept, fulfils the duty of observance, develops jhåna, develops insight, develops Path, develops superknowledge, develops attainment, to counteract it.” The same is said with regard to other kinds of evil deeds, they can be a natural decisive support-condition for kusala.> Pa~n~naa sees the disadvantage of akusala and then develops insight, for example. -------- > > S: I thought not so...because the upanissaya paccaya conditions > seem to occur 'naturally' without much effort at all due to > 'dependence' or 'powerful support'. But to be aware objectively of > unwholesome dhammas...whew...that requires quite an effort > upstream ... it really took me a few 10-day retreats to observe at > least a few of the pains and the anger/aversion arising out of it > with some amount of objectivity and with the understanding that > these dhammas are arising by a law of cause and effect and its just > not 'my anger' or 'my pain'.... and even now if the dhammas are > intense... I struggle with my habitual reactions. -------- N: It all depends on sati what object it takes. It is not a matter of labelling, observing or trying to pinpoint what arises, as you well know, I think. I used to believe that I could be aware of aversion, but Kh Sujin explained: it is still your dosa. In other words, it is more thinking about 'the story' of my dosa instead of going straight to the characteristic of dosa. As I also understood, before the first stage of insight, the direct understanding of naama as naama and of ruupa as ruupa, thus, directly knowing their different characteristics, there cannot be a clear understanding of the characteristics of the different cetasikas when they appear. So, it is no good trying to know them. Then there would still be a surreptious thinking about "stories" or concepts, without our knowing this. Even when we do not call cetasikas lobha or dosa. ------- > > S: But that said, my doubt here is just that - upanissaya paccaya > statements does not seem to apply to the example you have given, > because I feel that the arising of attachment does not necessarily > act as a powerful inducement or strong dependency factor or even a > supporting factor for arising objectivity and wisdom with regards > to the unwholesomeness? ------ N: It depends on pa~n~naa that sees the urgency of satipa.t.thaana now, without delay, no matter what reality presents itself: kusala, akusala, pleasant or unpleasant. ------- > S:And in the example I gave, a little attachment to the teacher > might support the kusala of absorbing and practicing the > instructions sincerely as arising out of the dependency of the > conditions.. i mean that the kusala following the akusala here can > be quite natural due to the dependency factor of the two? ------- N: When satipa.t.thaana is being developed there is no interest at thinking of persons or teachers, one is "one's own" teacher. The aim is understanding of whatever reality appears and not having more kusala or inducing it by being dependent on someone else. But from your further statement I see that you understand the disadvantage of dependence on a teacher. ------- Nina. ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links #115559 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 8, 2011 11:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing Hi Rob E, All your comments are very interesting (and not easy to respond to!!). --- On Wed, 1/6/11, Robert E wrote: >I can appreciate this, and I can also see why the commentators would thus emphasize the danger of seeing continuity instead of complete falling away, since it gives the false impression that we can hold onto something that can last or give satisfaction in a later moment if we cling to it and try to maintain our involvement with it. Seeing the complete falling away of that which we crave would lead to disenchantment and detachment. And this struggle with eternalism or its lesser version, some form of "lasting-ness," is a binding illusion that has to be released. ... S: Beautifully stated! More later.... Metta Sarah p.s Rather busy the next few days and next week going to Guangzhou in China with friends to study yoga with Mr Iyengar, himself! ====== #115560 From: "Shalini" Date: Wed Jun 8, 2011 11:40 am Subject: Re: Conditionality talks: part 1 shalnew Dear Kevin, Just when I started to read the Patthana book on conditionality by Nina, this mail chain can be so useful. you wrote: It arises based on that citta. > Cetasikas arise based on citta due to Dependence Condition. It depends on citta > to occur, or "come into existence". Likewise cetasikas also arise with citta > due to Conascence and Mutuality Condition. interesting. But I am not able to understand this fully clearly. It seems to be intuitive and easy to understand that cetaiskas depends on citta to occur, but the later statement of Mutuality Condition and Conascence? What exactly does this mean with perhaps some simple examples for simple souls ( or oops no souls.. :-) )?? thanks Shalini #115561 From: Shalini S Date: Wed Jun 8, 2011 12:42 pm Subject: atta hi attano natho shalnew Dear Nina and all, Further to reflecting on what it means to be "your own teacher", I kind of relate to this verse in the Dhammapada as the meaning of those words. Do correct and clarify with your comments if my understanding is not really right here. To me this verse also applies Sathipatthana, for by the act of going to an object and reflecting on unwholesomeness and actually inducing hiri-otappa in himself the bhikkhu fought his attachment to his 'old life'. http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/verseload.php?verse=379 Another statement of the conditionality : I am not able to understand or agree to statements that conditionality cannot be induced. In the above example, wasnt it induced? Well, why should not kusala be induced by associating with a teacher, observing his behavior with sincerity and revering him and his qualities? Reading the Patthana and the Abhidhamma and reflecting on it gives me a lot of hints and cues to actually put efforts towards abandoning akusala and inducing and maintaining kusala which is the definition of Samma Padhana ( or right efforts ). Although Satipatthana as I have practiced, is about being aware of dhammas as it is...whether it is kusala or akusala, for example I see that akusala is giving rise to or supporting more akusala... but should I still quietly observe it as a dhamma and leave it at that? Isnt it more beneficial and also taught in the suttas that to put effort against hindrances, when there is sloth to open my eyes, when there is torpor - give attention to breath, when there is vyapada ( ill-will ).. to generate metta, when there is vichikicca(doubt/confusion) - to stop and reflect on faith or discuss with the learned, when there is lobha(craving) - to stop its progress to tanha or attachment by that very awareness? To me till now satipatthana and vipassana has been a process which lets me observe first akusala leading to akusalas in continuity and then with persistence practice of observing, to realise that one moment of akusala dies down, rises and dies down again and again. Vipassana I understand, is a continued effort of awareness to break the link of craving leading to attachment ( tanha---upadana) in the law of dependent origination, and thus reversing the whole chain. The term "effortless effort"... hasnt made sense to me during intial practice. It is in this very sense of observation of what is happenning now and then penetrating that observation by applied effort and persistence and gaining discernment that I interpret the Buddha's statement of "being one's own teacher" and not in the sense of not considering a teacher as a person or not showing interest to a teacher and so on. I think its blameless, and even considered the highest Mangala to worship the ones who are worthy of worship which includes the teachers of sikkha-samadhi, to repeat this from my earlier email, in this context. Thanks and much metta Shalini #115562 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 8, 2011 10:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] atta hi attano natho Hi, Shalini (and Nina & all) - In a message dated 6/8/2011 8:42:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, shalnew@... writes: Dear Nina and all, Further to reflecting on what it means to be "your own teacher", I kind of relate to this verse in the Dhammapada as the meaning of those words. Do correct and clarify with your comments if my understanding is not really right here. To me this verse also applies Sathipatthana, for by the act of going to an object and reflecting on unwholesomeness and actually inducing hiri-otappa in himself the bhikkhu fought his attachment to his 'old life'. http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/verseload.php?verse=379 Another statement of the conditionality : I am not able to understand or agree to statements that conditionality cannot be induced. In the above example, wasnt it induced? Well, why should not kusala be induced by associating with a teacher, observing his behavior with sincerity and revering him and his qualities? Reading the Patthana and the Abhidhamma and reflecting on it gives me a lot of hints and cues to actually put efforts towards abandoning akusala and inducing and maintaining kusala which is the definition of Samma Padhana ( or right efforts ). Although Satipatthana as I have practiced, is about being aware of dhammas as it is...whether it is kusala or akusala, for example I see that akusala is giving rise to or supporting more akusala... but should I still quietly observe it as a dhamma and leave it at that? Isnt it more beneficial and also taught in the suttas that to put effort against hindrances, when there is sloth to open my eyes, when there is torpor - give attention to breath, when there is vyapada ( ill-will ).. to generate metta, when there is vichikicca(doubt/confusion) - to stop and reflect on faith or discuss with the learned, when there is lobha(craving) - to stop its progress to tanha or attachment by that very awareness? To me till now satipatthana and vipassana has been a process which lets me observe first akusala leading to akusalas in continuity and then with persistence practice of observing, to realise that one moment of akusala dies down, rises and dies down again and again. Vipassana I understand, is a continued effort of awareness to break the link of craving leading to attachment ( tanha---upadana) in the law of dependent origination, and thus reversing the whole chain. The term "effortless effort"... hasnt made sense to me during intial practice. It is in this very sense of observation of what is happenning now and then penetrating that observation by applied effort and persistence and gaining discernment that I interpret the Buddha's statement of "being one's own teacher" and not in the sense of not considering a teacher as a person or not showing interest to a teacher and so on. I think its blameless, and even considered the highest Mangala to worship the ones who are worthy of worship which includes the teachers of sikkha-samadhi, to repeat this from my earlier email, in this context. Thanks and much metta Shalini ================================= My two cents on this: Frequent mindful attention to whatever arises may lead to a detailed realization of how unwholesome activities in mind, speech, and body lead to suffering, and how wholesome activities lead to peace. Such realization may lead to disenchantment with, and diminishing of, unwholesome activities, most particularly disenchantment with and lessening of clinging to phenomena and concepts, and to furtherance of wholesome traits and activities. The diminishing of unwholesome traits and activities tends to result in the furtherance of useful traits and activities, in particular a growing peace of mind and clarity of mind, and vice-versa. The question is "Is it possible to intentionally be mindfully attentive more regularly?" I believe that it is, and, in fact, that this occurs automatically the more and that one observes the fact of mindful attention having such a salutary effect. With metta, Howard "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it is possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'" — _AN 2.19_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.019.than.html) #115563 From: "G." Date: Wed Jun 8, 2011 2:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Acharn Sujin, was: More on Ajahn Naeb gleblanc108 Thank you Nina and Sarah for your reply's. I learned about Ajahn Naeb initially when I stumbled onto the book "An Introduction to Buddhist Meditation for Results" By Archan Vinai Ussivakul. I then acquired a copy of Vipassana Bhavana. I also have read the material available on the Round Free website. Ajahn Naeb's teaching was the first time I felt that what I was reading was a clear explanation of the Buddha's teaching that was directly based on the oldest writings. Also, the approach that Ajahn Naeb teaches seems very similar to Zen Buddhism, which is my background. I am very interested in what the Buddha taught and leaning as much as I can about what is found in the oldest writings about Buddhism. Thank you Greg --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Greg, > > Welcome to DSG! I'm interested to know where you live and how you came to have an interest in the Teachings of Ajahn Naeb (& A.Sujin). <...> #115564 From: Shalini S Date: Wed Jun 8, 2011 3:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] atta hi attano natho shalnew Hi Howard, you wrote: >>.....The question is "Is it possible to intentionally be mindfully attentive more regularly?" I believe that it is, and, in fact, that this occurs automatically the more and that one observes the fact of mindful attention having such a salutary effect. Well said and thats a valuable statement hitting the bull's eye. And in fact my immediate concern of reading suttas, abhidhamma just to overcome doubts and also to increase those moments of persistent awareness through the day. Many times in the breeze of the daily life work and incidents, a yet modest traveller on this path like me tends to be swept away to old habits of unawareness and forgetfulness, although sitting on the cushion its easy to be aware and focussed. I indeed want to bring more frequent awareness and make it more automatic as you say, so it becomes an "effortless effort" much more. Thanks for your encouraging statement on that. I personally always look out for many such 'conditions' like reflecting on the Buddha's qualities, reflecting on the dangers as seen before of the unwholesome qualities as you pointed out, reflecting on death, reflecting on the urgency of the Sasana being just around in this world cycle after which I believe there is going to be a big gap in the sasana, a feeling of inspiration , faith and devotion etc, everything combined goes towards really supporting that persistency of efforts towards remembering to be aware as much as possible through the day, well perhaps till that automatic continuity of mindfulness hopefully sets in. thanks and metta, Shalini #115565 From: Kevin F Date: Wed Jun 8, 2011 5:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions talk: intro Dear Sarah: S: Great idea K: Thanks. It's nothing special. Besides there could be no other way, inspired by Ajahns approach to discussing at the English talks and by love for learning about Conditions. Nothing here (no self) that caused it to happen, just nama, rupa, and conditions. : ) S: I appreciate your sign-off! K: No, I appreciate your wise words. Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." ________________________________ #115566 From: Ken O Date: Wed Jun 8, 2011 6:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] is it ok to get attached to one's teacher ashkenn2k Dear Ken H Honestly as I have said, I do not wish to discuss whether it is nama and rupa or conventional that help us to develop. I understand nama and rupa, without it, it is extremely diffiuclt to understand anatta. I also understand on conventional objects like the 32 body parts meditation and how it had benefit many ancient monks. let each one of us to decide on their development and learn from the ancient wish you good health and if you do wish to receive tranlsation of commentaries please do tell me. I am most happy to send to you cheers Ken O > > >Hi Ken O and Shalini, > >-------- ><. . .> >KO: I remember there is saying, refrain from all evil, doing what is wholesome >and purify the citta, this is the teaching of the Buddha >-------- > >KH: Yes, I have heard that too, and I think it is proof of the momentary (single > >moment) nature of the teaching. > >If it were a conventional (multi moment) teaching it would be impossible for any > >learner to follow. Only an arahant can refrain from evil all of the time. > > >Furthermore, l think the Buddha literally meant that all three disciplines were >to be practised simultaneously. That would not be possible in a conventional >teaching because doing good (dana) and refraining from evil (sila) are two >distinct activities. And right understanding (bhavana) is a third, distinct >activity. > > >Only in the Buddha's Dhamma are all three disciplines developed together, in >one(supramundane) moment. > >Ken H > > > #115567 From: Ken O Date: Wed Jun 8, 2011 6:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] is it ok to get attached to one's teacher ashkenn2k Dear Shalini > >Shalini: I guess this particular Patthana statement has to be taken with a lot >of wise consideration indeed. I think that even though unwholesome conditions >may lead to wholesome states, the consequence of the unwholesomeness still holds > >good. One finally will have to struggle to melt that unwholesome condition. So >if its possible to avoid such unwholesome states and generate wholesome states >only through wholesome ones, its the best. > > >Yes, its true that such attachment should generally not be encouraged at all, >but the fact is that when it does happen naturally, it can be accepted to some >extent. I have no idea if there is an equivalent of the term devotion in the >Abhidhamma, which is a little different from "faith", but a little devotion, >a little attachment and affection towards the Buddha and the teacher when it >occurs, does help in my experience, though I wouldnt put efforts to develop >unwholesome attachments just because it can give rise to wholesome states. A >balanced and cautious reflection of this Patthana statement is definitely worth. KO: I dont wish to be preachy, faith is different from attachment toward Buddha. We have to see as dhammas, not seeing there is a self in such actions, whatever affections that arise naturally is due to our latency or good wholesome is due to our wholes disposition we develop >Also, to reflect maybe that there is also a statement in Patthana if I remember >correctly that some wholesome states can also support unwholesome ones, Nina, is > >this right? I was not able to search for it, but I do vaguely remember so, but I > >am not sure. KO: Yes you are right. Ken O #115568 From: Ken O Date: Wed Jun 8, 2011 6:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] atta hi attano natho ashkenn2k Dear Howard and Shalini mindfullness is just understanding of what is kusala and what is aksuala. it is not developing panna. we need to have clear comprehension of dhamma. this is always a very impt part of the satipathana or in any development of concentration the difference between others and Buddha, is understanding of anatta and not mindfullness because ascetics in ancient times know about mindfulness. without mindfulness and silia, there is no jhanas even for the ascetics who do not follow the buddha path Ken O >Hi Howard, > >you wrote: > >>>.....The question is "Is it possible to intentionally be mindfully >attentive more regularly?" I believe that it is, and, in fact, that this occurs >automatically the more and that one observes the fact of mindful attention >having such a salutary effect. > >Well said and thats a valuable statement hitting the bull's eye. And in fact my >immediate concern of reading suttas, abhidhamma just to overcome doubts and >also to increase those moments of persistent awareness through the day. Many >times in the breeze of the daily life work and incidents, a yet modest traveller >on this path like me tends to be swept away to old habits of unawareness and >forgetfulness, although sitting on the cushion its easy to be aware and >focussed. I indeed want to bring more frequent awareness and make it more >automatic as you say, so it becomes an "effortless effort" much more. Thanks >for your encouraging statement on that. > > I personally always look out for many such 'conditions' like reflecting on the >Buddha's qualities, reflecting on the dangers as seen before of the unwholesome >qualities as you pointed out, reflecting on death, reflecting on the urgency of >the Sasana being just around in this world cycle after which I believe there is >going to be a big gap in the sasana, a feeling of inspiration , faith and >devotion etc, everything combined goes towards really supporting that >persistency of efforts towards remembering to be aware as much as possible >through the day, well perhaps till that automatic continuity of mindfulness >hopefully sets in. > >thanks and metta, >Shalini > #115569 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 8, 2011 3:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] atta hi attano natho Hi, Ken - In a message dated 6/8/2011 2:40:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: Dear Howard and Shalini mindfullness is just understanding of what is kusala and what is aksuala. it is not developing panna. we need to have clear comprehension of dhamma. this is always a very impt part of the satipathana or in any development of concentration ----------------------------------------------------- H: I'm aware that mindfulness results in more than wise distinction between kusala and akusala phenomena. It is a condition, one among many, for cultivation of insight into the nature of phenomena along many lines, most especially the tilakkhana and paticcasamupada, but I was particularly relating mindfulness to right effort. Mindfulness is intimately associated with that. ----------------------------------------------------- the difference between others and Buddha, is understanding of anatta and not mindfullness because ascetics in ancient times know about mindfulness. without mindfulness and silia, there is no jhanas even for the ascetics who do not follow the buddha path Ken O ================================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #115570 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Jun 8, 2011 9:07 pm Subject: Re: is it ok to get attached to one's teacher kenhowardau Hi Ken O, Thanks for your reply: ----------------- > KO: Honestly as I have said, I do not wish to discuss whether it is nama and rupa or conventional that help us to develop. I understand nama and rupa, --------------------- KH: Sorry Ken, but I don't think you do understand nama and rupa. If you did, you would know there was no "conventional." There is only nama and rupa; the conventional is pure illusion. And to know nama and rupa is to want to discuss it. ------------------------ > KO: without it, it is extremely diffiuclt to understand anatta. ------------------------ KH: Without it there is no anatta. The conventional is not anatta, it is an illusion. It is an idea of how the world would be if there were no nama or rupa (no anatta). ---------------------------------- > KO: I also understand on conventional objects like the 32 body parts meditation and how it had benefit many ancient monks. ---------------------------------- KH: In ultimate truth and reality (as taught by the Buddha) there are no monks and no body parts; there are only the presently arisen namas and rupas. There never were any monks or body parts; there were always just fleeting namas and rupas just like now. --------------------- > KO: let each one of us to decide on their development -------------------- KH: Sorry Ken, it doesn't work that way. --------- > KO: and learn from the ancient --------- KH: Yes, if we would only listen to them! :-) ------------ > KO: wish you good health and if you do wish to receive tranlsation of commentaries please do tell me. I am most happy to send to you cheers ------------ KH: Thanks, but I am not a big reader, and I already have more than enough commentary texts for this lifetime. DSG provides most of my daily reading. Ken H #115571 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2011 12:21 am Subject: Re: is it ok to get attached to one's teacher truth_aerator Dear KenH, all, >KH: Sorry Ken, but I don't think you do understand nama and rupa. If >you did, you would know there was no "conventional." There is only >nama and rupa; the conventional is pure illusion. And where did the Buddha say this? With metta, Alex #115572 From: Shalini S Date: Thu Jun 9, 2011 2:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] atta hi attano natho shalnew Dear Ken, you wrote: >> mindfullness is just understanding of what is kusala and what is aksuala. it is not developing panna. I would say that it is through a combination of many things which includes mindfulness that panna develops. I am not sure if I can agree on 'mindfulness is not developing panna'. In my understanding and experience, it is indeed through mindfulness and awareness that one gets to see the three basic characteristics or three lakkhana , namely dukkha(suffering), anicca(impermanence) and anatta(no-soul). Similarly mere intellectual understanding of the concept of anatta or no-soul, really is not panna. Panna as I understand is very subtle and anatta is in fact perfected only at the Arahant stage. Even an Anagami does not perfect the 'I' feeling in the subtle processes of the mind. As I have heard, acetics from many ages in the time of Buddha, were in fact experts at samadhi(jhana) and sila, but not really panna which is cultivated through mindfulness and awareness and penetration of the three basic lakkhana or characteristics of dukkha, anicca and anatta as I mentioned earlier. And it is a gradual process that sets into our system of mind....not really an intellectual view as I understand. Guess all the factors given in the Noble Eight Fold Path goes towards developing panna, which includes Right mindfulness. And developing and cultivating panna is the very goal of the whole path and everything that is talked about and written in the suttas has a role only towards this goal and nothing else. thanks and metta Shalini Serenity comes to those who trade expectations with acceptance. --- On Wed, 6/8/11, Ken O wrote: From: Ken O Subject: Re: [dsg] atta hi attano natho To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, June 8, 2011, 1:39 PM Dear Howard and Shalini mindfullness is just understanding of what is kusala and what is aksuala. it is not developing panna. we need to have clear comprehension of dhamma. this is always a very impt part of the satipathana or in any development of concentration the difference between others and Buddha, is understanding of anatta and not mindfullness because ascetics in ancient times know about mindfulness. without mindfulness and silia, there is no jhanas even for the ascetics who do not follow the buddha path Ken O >Hi Howard, > >you wrote: > >>>.....The question is "Is it possible to intentionally be mindfully >attentive more regularly?" I believe that it is, and, in fact, that this occurs >automatically the more and that one observes the fact of mindful attention >having such a salutary effect. > >Well said and thats a valuable statement hitting the bull's eye. And in fact my >immediate concern of reading suttas, abhidhamma just to overcome doubts and >also to increase those moments of persistent awareness through the day. Many >times in the breeze of the daily life work and incidents, a yet modest traveller >on this path like me tends to be swept away to old habits of unawareness and >forgetfulness, although sitting on the cushion its easy to be aware and >focussed. I indeed want to bring more frequent awareness and make it more >automatic as you say, so it becomes an "effortless effort" much more. Thanks >for your encouraging statement on that. > > I personally always look out for many such 'conditions' like reflecting on the >Buddha's qualities, reflecting on the dangers as seen before of the unwholesome >qualities as you pointed out, reflecting on death, reflecting on the urgency of >the Sasana being just around in this world cycle after which I believe there is >going to be a big gap in the sasana, a feeling of inspiration , faith and >devotion etc, everything combined goes towards really supporting that >persistency of efforts towards remembering to be aware as much as possible >through the day, well perhaps till that automatic continuity of mindfulness >hopefully sets in. > >thanks and metta, >Shalini > #115573 From: Shalini S Date: Thu Jun 9, 2011 2:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] atta hi attano natho shalnew A correction: Even an Anagami does not perfect the removing of the 'I' feeling in the subtle processes of the mind. --- On Wed, 6/8/11, Shalini S wrote: From: Shalini S Subject: Re: [dsg] atta hi attano natho To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, June 8, 2011, 9:09 PM Dear Ken, you wrote: >> mindfullness is just understanding of what is kusala and what is aksuala. it is not developing panna. I would say that it is through a combination of many things which includes mindfulness that panna develops. I am not sure if I can agree on 'mindfulness is not developing panna'. In my understanding and experience, it is indeed through mindfulness and awareness that one gets to see the three basic characteristics or three lakkhana , namely dukkha(suffering), anicca(impermanence) and anatta(no-soul). Similarly mere intellectual understanding of the concept of anatta or no-soul, really is not panna. Panna as I understand is very subtle and anatta is in fact perfected only at the Arahant stage. Even an Anagami does not perfect the 'I' feeling in the subtle processes of the mind. As I have heard, acetics from many ages in the time of Buddha, were in fact experts at samadhi(jhana) and sila, but not really panna which is cultivated through mindfulness and awareness and penetration of the three basic lakkhana or characteristics of dukkha, anicca and anatta as I mentioned earlier. And it is a gradual process that sets into our system of mind....not really an intellectual view as I understand. Guess all the factors given in the Noble Eight Fold Path goes towards developing panna, which includes Right mindfulness. And developing and cultivating panna is the very goal of the whole path and everything that is talked about and written in the suttas has a role only towards this goal and nothing else. thanks and metta Shalini #115574 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2011 3:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions talk: intro glenjohnann Dear Kevin and Sarah I look forward to this thread, Kevin, as I find the conditions fascinating and so helpful in understanding that all dhammas are, well, conditioned. As for Achan Sujin's talks about conditions at the Foundation, several years ago when in Bangkok I heard on the radio broadcasts in Thai a number of sessions devoted to conditions - one condition a day for several weeks of daily broadcasts. These radio sessions are all taken from the Thai discussions at the Foundation. As with all of her discussions and talks, she brings everything back to understanding of the present moment. Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Kevin, > > --- On Thu, 2/6/11, Kevin F wrote: > > >Inspired by her way of teaching, and also by the Patthana, I would like to start a series of threads here talking about the various paccaya listed in the Abhidhamma, in a very nonchalant, non-predetermined, and open way. I don't aspire to have any preconceived or mapped out pattern in bringing up different points about conditionality, but I do aspire to start new threads with short, simple quotes or statements about the various conditions to help bring them to light. > > > >I hope everybody joins in so we can all learn from each other. > .... > S: Great idea and I like your approach! > > Metta > > Sarah > > p.s I appreciate your sign-off! > ======= > #115575 From: Kevin F Date: Thu Jun 9, 2011 4:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conditionality talks: part 1 Hi Shalini, Shalini: interesting. But I am not able to understand this fully clearly. It seems to be intuitive and easy to understand that cetaiskas depends on citta to occur, but the later statement of Mutuality Condition and Conascence? What exactly does this mean with perhaps some simple examples for simple souls ( or oops no souls.. :-) )?? Kevin: Great question. Allow me to quote from Nina's book, The Conditionality of Life. As for Conascence condition: "In the case of conascence-condition, a conditioning dhamma, paccaya dhamma, on arising, causes the conditioned dhammas, paccayupanna dhammas, to arise simultaneously with it. The Pāli term sahajāta in sahajāta-paccaya, conascence-condition, means: that which has arisen together. In the case of proximity-condition and contiguity-condition, the conditioning dhamma arises previously to the conditioned dhamma. We read in the “Visuddhimagga” (XVII, 77): “A dhamma which, while arising, assists (another dhamma) by making it arise together with itself is a conascence-condition, as a lamp is for illumination...” For the explanation of conascence-condition the “Visuddhimagga” uses the simile of an oil lamp: when its flame appears the light, colour and heat are produced simultaneously with it. Light, colour and heat produced by the flame are not present before the flame appears nor after it dies out 58. We read in the “Paṭṭhāna” (II, Analytical Exposition, 6, Conascence-condition) about different classes of phenomena, nāma and rūpa, mentioned in relation to conascence-condition. We read with regard to the first class: “The four immaterial aggregates (nāmakkhandhas) are mutually related to one another by conascence-condition.”- The Conditionality of Life > Kevin: And as far as Mutality condition is concerned: "Some of the phenomena which are related by conascence-condition are also related by mutuality-condition (aññamañña-paccaya). They condition one another reciprocally while they arise simultaneously. The realities that condition one another mutually, can, each of them, be in turn conditioning dhamma (paccaya) and conditioned dhamma (paccayupanna dhamma). We read in the “Visuddhimagga” (XVII, 78): “A state that assists by means of mutual arousing and consolidating is a mutuality-condition, as three sticks of a tripod give each other consolidating support.” Three sticks which are leaning against each other at the upper ends mutually support one another. Evenso the realities to which mutuality-condition pertains condition one another reciprocally. There are three classes of phenomena to which this condition pertains. As to the first class, the four nāmakkhandhas which condition one another by way of conascence, also condition one another by way of mutuality. They support and consolidate one another. As to the second class, the four Great Elements which are related to one another by conascence-condition are also related to one another by way of mutuality-condition. Solidity, cohesion, temperature and motion which arise together condition one another reciprocally and give each other mutual support. As to the third class, the paṭisandhi-citta with the accompanying cetasikas and the heart-base arising simultaneously condition one another by way of mutuality. As we have seen, at the moment of rebirth kamma produces, apart from the group of rūpas with the heart-base, two other groups, namely the group with the body-base and the group with sex. There is no relation of mutuality between the latter two groups and the paṭisandhi-citta. The other classes of phenomena which are related by conascence are not related by mutuality. The rūpa produced by citta is conditioned by that citta by way of conascence, but there is no relation of mutuality. " - The Conditionality of Life Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." ________________________________ #115576 From: Kevin F Date: Thu Jun 9, 2011 4:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditionality talks: part 1 Hi Sarah: Sarah: And likewise, no citta can arise without (at least seven) cetasikas, also by these conditions. Even though the citta is the 'leader' in experiencing the object as you indicate, without the cetasikas, it could not experience anything. I enjoy reading all your additional comments and reflections on the conditions. Kevin: Excellent Sarah! Thank you very much. In my initial post, I did not go into this as to keep the post short and concise, though it was inferred. Responses like this are very helpful and help the thread keep going in a way where people can certainly learn. Thank you. Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." ________________________________ #115577 From: Kevin F Date: Thu Jun 9, 2011 5:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions talk: intro Hello Ann, Ann: I look forward to this thread, Kevin, as I find the conditions fascinating and so helpful in understanding that all dhammas are, well, conditioned. Kevin: Thank you Ann. I look forward to posting more threads like this one. : ) Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." #115578 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jun 8, 2011 11:59 pm Subject: Transience! Friends: All External Objects are always Fading Away & Vanishing! At Savatthi The Blessed Buddha said this: Bhikkhus, all forms are impermanent! What is impermanent is suffering! What is suffering is no-self! What is no-self should be seen as it really is with correct, true, relevant and realistic understanding thus: This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self ... All sounds are impermanent ... All smells are impermanent ... All flavours are impermanent ... All touches are impermanent ... All Mental states are impermanent. What is impermanent is suffering... What is suffering is no-self. What is no-self should be seen as it really is with correct, true, relevant and realistic understanding thus: This is neither me, nor mine, this I am not, this is not my self! Seeing this, Bhikkhus, any educated Noble Disciple is disgusted with all forms, sounds, smells, flavours, touches, and with any mental state ... The experience of this disgust, brings disillusion and disenchantment! Through this disillusion, the mind is all released! When it is liberated, then there appears this assurance: "This mind is freed" and one instantly understands: Rebirth is now ended, this Noble Life is fully concluded, done is what should be done, there is no state beyond this... <...> Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikāya. IV 3-4 The group on the 6 Senses 35:4 The External as Impermanent... http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita _/\_ * <...> #115579 From: Shalini S Date: Thu Jun 9, 2011 11:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conditionality talks: part 1 shalnew Thanks Kevin. This mail topic is really useful, I generally dont get to the stage of reading the document in detail however much I try. So I can learn this better by discussion. I have the following questions: 1. So by conanence condition, cetasikas arise as conditioned dhamma and the citta is the conditioning dhamma? 2. By mutuality condition, you mean cetasikas are supporting the arising and of citta and citta is supporting the formation of cetasikas or how is it? 3. So to distinguish conanence and mutuality here , conanence is kind of one way conditioning of co-arising dhammas and mutuality is reciprocal conditioning of each other of co-arising dhammas? 4. In Bhavanga citta, is a co-arising cetasika present? Thanks Shalini #115580 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2011 2:21 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Rob E, > > All your comments are very interesting (and not easy to respond to!!). > > --- On Wed, 1/6/11, Robert E wrote: > >I can appreciate this, and I can also see why the commentators would thus emphasize the danger of seeing continuity instead of complete falling away, since it gives the false impression that we can hold onto something that can last or give satisfaction in a later moment if we cling to it and try to maintain our involvement with it. Seeing the complete falling away of that which we crave would lead to disenchantment and detachment. And this struggle with eternalism or its lesser version, some form of "lasting-ness," is a binding illusion that has to be released. > ... > S: Beautifully stated! > > More later.... Thank you, Sarah. I'll be very interested in hearing your comments when you have the time! > p.s Rather busy the next few days and next week going to Guangzhou in China with friends to study yoga with Mr Iyengar, himself! Wow, that's amazing! Ha, I remember when Mr. Iyengar claimed he was retiring about 15 years ago. I don't think anyone believed it, and now you have the proof! In earlier days when I was an [uncertified] Iyengar teacher, I went to several of the U.S. "Iyengar conventions" and in the San Diego one he was there. I remember we were working on the standing warrior poses, and Mr. Iyengar walked in and took over the class. He started breaking down the architecture of Virbhadrasana II - the warrior pose with one knee bent and the arms stretched out one in back and one in front - into a series of triangles on a chalk board. It was all very interesting, except for the fact that we were holding the pose for the entire time! I think we held that pose for 45 minutes. I have no idea how we did it physically, except that when Mr. Iyengar was in the room, you really didn't want to go out of the pose while he was looking at you. :-) The other thing that stands out in my mind is a demonstration that Mr. Iyengar did one time at another event, in which he started from Virbhadrasana I - lunge with hands up to the ceiling - and jumped up from there and then down into a full forward split, his thighs smacking the ground as he landed. Yikes! I am sure you will have an incredible time, yoga-wise. I hope you will let me know some of the specifics, off-list if you think it is preferable. I would love to hear how and what he is teaching these days at an event like this. Thanks for telling me about this! Best, Robert = = = = = = = = = = #115581 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 9, 2011 2:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] atta hi attano natho Dear Shalini, I had to go out but I will try to answer your main points. Op 8-jun-2011, om 14:42 heeft Shalini S het volgende geschreven: > The term "effortless effort"... hasnt made sense to me during > intial practice. It is in this very sense of observation of what is > happenning now and then penetrating that observation by applied > effort and persistence and gaining discernment that I interpret the > Buddha's statement of "being one's own teacher" and not in the > sense of not considering a teacher as a person or not showing > interest to a teacher and so on. I think its blameless, and even > considered the highest Mangala to worship the ones who are worthy > of worship which includes the teachers of sikkha-samadhi, to repeat > this from my earlier email, in this context. ------ N: I agree that having respect for wise teachers is wholesome. But I would like to go more into the meaning. When respecting a teacher of Dhamma, we actually pay respect to the Dhamma, not to a person. In the same way, when I pay respect to a monk, I do not pay respect to his person but to the Sangha. At that moment I do not even think of him in a personal way. This may illustrate what I mean when saying that I am not so interested in the person of a teacher. It is the Dhamma that matters, not the person. Anybody, even a child, who speaks about true Dhamma can be my teacher. The highest respect we pay to the Buddha is to apply what he taught: satipa.t.thaana. Through satipa.t.thaana we gradually learn that in the ultimate sense there is no person, only naama and ruupa. As to your other point: promoting the right conditions for kusala, such as cultivating the opposites of the hindrances, such as mettaa, making efforts for kusala, all this is right, but let us not forget that they are all conditioned dhammas, cetasikas. It depends on one's accumulated inclinations whether there can be mettaa immediately after one has been angry. The Buddha taught to understand all these dhammas as anattaa, beyond control. Before we realize it we may have ideas of: I should do this or that, I should make an effort, all motivated by clinging to the self. I think that the development of understanding is not a matter of observing what happens, then it can easily be an idea of: I observe, here I am, observing all the different dhammas that arise. First there is listening and considering, pariyatti and this in itself leads to pa.tipatti without our doing anything special to reach this. Pa~n~naa that is gradually developing is doing the work, not us. I wonder whether perhaps for people in general this is the main obstacle to the growth of pa~n~naa: they want to interfere and will not let pa~n~naa work its way. ------ Nina. #115582 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 9, 2011 11:09 am Subject: An Apparent Argument by the Buddha in Support of Free Choice Hi, all - From AN 3.61, there is the following: "Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that... whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past?' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... an abusive speaker... an idle chatterer... covetous... malevolent... a holder of wrong views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative..." In this particular material, the Buddha's refuting of everything coming from one's past kamma is pragmatically based on the following: The falling back on what was done in the past as essential results in there being no desire or effort to act (in the present) in pursuit of 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done'. It seems to me that the Buddha is saying here that regardless of past kamma, one can do what should be done and refrain from what should not be done unless one is convinced that past kamma rules that out. Comments anyone? With metta, Howard The Wise Do Not Wait /Like massive boulders, mountains pressing against the sky, moving in from all sides, crushing the four directions, so aging and death come rolling over living beings: noble warriors, priests, merchants, workers, outcastes, & scavengers. They spare nothing. They trample everything. Here elephant troops can hold no ground, nor can chariots or infantry, nor can a battle of wits or wealth win out. So a wise person, seeing his own good, steadfast, secures confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha. One who practices the Dhamma in thought, word, & deed, receives praise here on earth and after death rejoices in heaven. / (From the Pabbatopama Sutta) _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it is possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'" — _AN 2.19_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.019.than.html) #115583 From: Shalini S Date: Thu Jun 9, 2011 4:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] atta hi attano natho shalnew Dear Nina, Well, I am not sure you understand me well then. To say that I develop panna or insight by observing is taking my example too far out of context. To say I can get inspired to improve my practice by looking at others has always had a beneficial effect on me and as I observe till now it has not caused any obstructions to my panna as you want to quote, it has supported the development of panna. I agree perfectly that to respect a teacher, is to respect dhamma. But to me to see a person as a no-person or a mass of bubbles is mere talk because that can be achieved only by Arahants. And niether do my teachers advice that I go about my daily life trying to treat walls and persons as a mass of bubbles. What is more practical for me is that people like me, who have not yet got the insight of anatta, are really able to progress well and gradually and seeing that inspires me...and how can that be blamed? Again do not try to argue on the above by taking it totally out of context.. I am not saying I will develop insight of anatta and paticcasammupadha by observing others..:-). And I am a learner with a long way to go on the path, after that as I can claim to see you, teachers, parents as a mass of impermanent bubbles of nama and rupa.. :-). So maybe you have reached a stage of enlightenment to see everything as nama and rupa, but I definitely know that I havent and I will not force myself to do that, since anatta especially has to happen through gradual process of Vipassana insight. Its not a conceptual thing that I practice as an affirmation and keep telling myself or reasoning again and again that I or a teacher or friend is non-person. Panna is not reasoning...it is actual seeing and I surely cant actually see myself or my teacher or even you as non-person...:-), though I can definitely reason so. Secondly, you wrote: "It depends on one's accumulated inclinations whether there can be mettaa immediately after one has been angry." So do I sit passively depending on my accumulated inclinations. The Buddha says any instruction should be verified by practice. To me by verification, I know that metta coming to me after being angry was not there till I started to practice it with applied effort according to the instructions that I got ( and I struggled with that initially and had to persist with repeated practice and reflection too ) Of course I also watched my anger in addition to generating metta. Watching the impermanency of anger is key as I observe through my practice again and that is what eventually has helped me reduce my anger to a very large extent. you also wrote: "I wonder whether perhaps for people in general this is the main obstacle to the growth of pa~n~naa: they want to interfere and will not let pa~n~naa work its way." - I am not sure by which Buddha's words you could be quoting that from. Guess unless you can have iddhi powers you would not be able to say what helps and what doesnt for others. The Dhammapada, the Sutta also states in addition to my guides and teachers that to make efforts in generating metta, instead of passively waiting for my "accumulated inclinations" is beneficial and has proved to be so very solidly through my own personal experience. I guess I will go by Buddha's words and my guides words and my own experience and would respectfully like to strongly disagree with you, for even Buddha has exhorted the Kalamas only to judge by experience, when in doubt. Fortunately for me, at the least this is verifiable by my modest experience! But I shall still keep your words in my mind if my experience could prove otherwise. Till then I will still go by putting efforts 'to induce' kusala, since your advice of not inducing kusala and jsut let it happen unfortunately does not help me. Another question is how does the inclinations accumulate??? Is that not by effort and how can one go against the Buddha's repeated exhortation of Samma Padhana to 'ABANDON akusala, DEVELOP ungenerated kusala, STOP ungenerated akusala from occuring, to GROW and maintain already generated kusala??". I wonder what accumulated inclinations would let me put efforts towards generating kusala that I have not yet accumulated then? I respect your views though. Maybe it has helped you in your practice, I guess, which is why you repeatedly emphasize that view. I have no go but to emphasize what I see and verify by own practice and go by the Buddha's words. To me the path has been to penetrate the truth of the tilakkahana by persistent practice and also to put conscious, applied efforts to accumulate inclinations by practice and I would continue to do so, till as ...till now it has not obstructed panna and it does not show signs of doing so either and I have enough evidences from the Buddha's words and verification with my experience and the words of people who have practiced it and found it useful. I would say we can stop our discussion about this to politely agree to disagree here. If it helps you or others to not see teachers as persons, perhaps it does and I will think it is akusala for me to go the extent of wondering and commenting whether that creates obstacles for you or others just because that does not help me. You have my good wishes for the speediest progress on this path through genuine and deep practice. I really appreciate your service on writings on Dhamma. I personally think that if this dhamma study group is sticking to views and writings of a particular group of teachings which is variant with what I practice, then its not beneficial for me to continue on here. Because I am realising that listening to too many perspectives also tends to create confusions, even though perspectives can be true or false which is a different matter. Ajhan Chah quotes: "Just do the practice wholeheartedly, and you can arrive at real understanding—it will bring you to the place the teachings talk about". "You can go from one teacher to the next seeking explanations and instructions, trying to figure out if they are teaching correctly or incorrectly and how their teachings compare to each other. Some people are always traveling around to learn from different teachers. They try to judge and measure, so when they sit down to meditate they are constantly in confusion about what is right and what is wrong." I guess I came here thinking Theravada teachings are same, but realised they perhaps differ. As Han was feeling, it might go towards bias w.r.t to teachings in the Sangha.. and creating schisms is a kamma I do not definitely want to accumulate here, by way of these useles arguments. Anyways, I got my confusions resolved by Han's and Vince's pdf which was directly related to my guides and teachers and truly it inspired me to reread many suttas and that helped me put joy and energy into my practice. I am contented with that. So I do not want to confuse myself by listening to too many views. "Each blind person touches part of the elephant and has a completely different idea of what it is. But it’s the same one elephant." I am quite a blind person touching the elephant and I better go by the Buddha's Suttas and the words of the teachers I have faith and confidence in, which match with the Buddha's words and my own personal experience. Allow me to bid farewell to this study group along with accepting my gratitude for the benefits it gave to me! Thanks and metta, Shalini Serenity comes to those who trade expectations with acceptance. --- On Thu, 6/9/11, Nina van Gorkom wrote: From: Nina van Gorkom Subject: Re: [dsg] atta hi attano natho To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, June 9, 2011, 9:47 AM Dear Shalini, I had to go out but I will try to answer your main points. Op 8-jun-2011, om 14:42 heeft Shalini S het volgende geschreven: > The term "effortless effort"... hasnt made sense to me during > intial practice. It is in this very sense of observation of what is > happenning now and then penetrating that observation by applied > effort and persistence and gaining discernment that I interpret the > Buddha's statement of "being one's own teacher" and not in the > sense of not considering a teacher as a person or not showing > interest to a teacher and so on. I think its blameless, and even > considered the highest Mangala to worship the ones who are worthy > of worship which includes the teachers of sikkha-samadhi, to repeat > this from my earlier email, in this context. ------ N: I agree that having respect for wise teachers is wholesome. But I would like to go more into the meaning. When respecting a teacher of Dhamma, we actually pay respect to the Dhamma, not to a person. In the same way, when I pay respect to a monk, I do not pay respect to his person but to the Sangha. At that moment I do not even think of him in a personal way. This may illustrate what I mean when saying that I am not so interested in the person of a teacher. It is the Dhamma that matters, not the person. Anybody, even a child, who speaks about true Dhamma can be my teacher. The highest respect we pay to the Buddha is to apply what he taught: satipa.t.thaana. Through satipa.t.thaana we gradually learn that in the ultimate sense there is no person, only naama and ruupa. As to your other point: promoting the right conditions for kusala, such as cultivating the opposites of the hindrances, such as mettaa, making efforts for kusala, all this is right, but let us not forget that they are all conditioned dhammas, cetasikas. It depends on one's accumulated inclinations whether there can be mettaa immediately after one has been angry. The Buddha taught to understand all these dhammas as anattaa, beyond control. Before we realize it we may have ideas of: I should do this or that, I should make an effort, all motivated by clinging to the self. I think that the development of understanding is not a matter of observing what happens, then it can easily be an idea of: I observe, here I am, observing all the different dhammas that arise. First there is listening and considering, pariyatti and this in itself leads to pa.tipatti without our doing anything special to reach this. Pa~n~naa that is gradually developing is doing the work, not us. I wonder whether perhaps for people in general this is the main obstacle to the growth of pa~n~naa: they want to interfere and will not let pa~n~naa work its way. ------ Nina. #115584 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jun 9, 2011 4:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is it ok to get attached to one's teacher ashkenn2k Dear Ken H Hearing commentaries from anicent master is different from hearing commentaries from the DSG. One have read the ancient text themselves and not base on translations and quotes from others including me. My offer remains open when one day you decide to. Cheers Ken O #115585 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2011 4:37 pm Subject: Re: atta hi attano natho moellerdieter Hi Shalini ( Han , Howard , Ken and others) 　 I read some of your messages ...well expressed !　 you wrote: 'I would say that it is through a combination of many things which includes mindfulness that panna develops. I am not sure if I can agree on 'mindfulness is not developing panna'. In my understanding and experience, it is indeed through mindfulness and awareness that one gets to see the three basic characteristics or three lakkhana , namely dukkha(suffering), anicca(impermanence) and anatta(no-soul). Similarly mere intellectual understanding of the concept of anatta or no-soul, really is not panna. Panna as I understand is very subtle and anatta is in fact perfected only at the Arahant stage. Even an Anagami does not perfect the 'I' feeling in the subtle processes of the mind. As I have heard, acetics from many ages in the time of Buddha, were in fact experts at samadhi(jhana) and sila, but not really panna which is cultivated through mindfulness and awareness and penetration of the three basic lakkhana or characteristics of dukkha, anicca and anatta as I mentioned earlier. And it is a gradual process that sets into our system of mind....not really an intellectual view as I understand. Guess all the factors given in the Noble Eight Fold Path goes towards developing panna, which includes Right mindfulness. And developing and cultivating panna is the very goal of the whole path and everything that is talked about and written in the suttas has a role only towards this goal and nothing else.' D: I thought an addding would be useful , possibly you may agree: The Buddha once mentioned that without old age (sickness) and death there would be no teaching. . No doubt these are the key elements of suffering and the trigger for the Prince to change his life into that of an ascetic in order to search for a/the truth not submitted to decay and death. By his enlightenment he found the deathless, the cessation of suffering. So the very goal of the whole path is nibbana.. Panna , with its characteristic of aniica, dukkha, anatta describes the level of penetration into the 4 Noble Truths , dissolving avijja and with that sankhara, the kamma force., etc. Each of the eight path factors contribute for that panna ( as you pointed out already) , the sila and the samadhi part of the path training are the means to develop just that . Obviously other ascetics consider (ed) these means to be the end and by that miss(ed) the eye of the dhamma . I understand that in Myanmar these ascetics are called weizzars ( ? .. Han, please correct me ..) 　 with Metta Dieter #115586 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jun 9, 2011 5:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] atta hi attano natho ashkenn2k Dear Salini and Howard. Mindfulness is a protector and guardian. Satipatthana is not just about mindfullines, it includes clear comprehension of dhamma. It is not the role of mindfulness to understand the three characteristics, this role is panna only. If mindfulness is for the understanding of the three characteristics, then the ascetics who have high mindfulness could have become enlighten as jhanas development is impossible without mindfulness which protects the mind from sensual desires. One other aspect of that saying those ascetics do not have panna, Those ascetics before Buddha arise do have panna but this panna is not in accordance with the truth. I have quote this quite a few times from the Right View Commentary. <> As long as not in accordance of the truth, there is no enlightenment Ken O > >From: Shalini S >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Thursday, 9 June 2011 10:25:22 >Subject: Re: [dsg] atta hi attano natho > > >A correction: >Even an Anagami does not perfect the removing of the 'I' feeling in the subtle >processes of the mind. > > >--- On Wed, 6/8/11, Shalini S wrote: > >From: Shalini S >Subject: Re: [dsg] atta hi attano natho >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Date: Wednesday, June 8, 2011, 9:09 PM > > > >Dear Ken, > >you wrote: >>> mindfullness is just understanding of what is kusala and what is aksuala. it >>>is >>> >not developing panna. > >I would say that it is through a combination of many things which includes >mindfulness that panna develops. I am not sure if I can agree on 'mindfulness is >not developing panna'. In my understanding and experience, it is indeed through >mindfulness and awareness that one gets to see the three basic characteristics >or three lakkhana , namely dukkha(suffering), anicca(impermanence) and >anatta(no-soul). Similarly mere intellectual understanding of the concept of >anatta or no-soul, really is not panna. Panna as I understand is very subtle and >anatta is in fact perfected only at the Arahant stage. Even an Anagami does not >perfect the 'I' feeling in the subtle processes of the mind. > > >As I have heard, acetics from many ages in the time of Buddha, were in fact >experts at samadhi(jhana) and sila, but not really panna which is cultivated >through mindfulness and awareness and penetration of the three basic lakkhana or >characteristics of dukkha, anicca and anatta as I mentioned earlier. And it is a >gradual process that sets into our system of mind....not really an intellectual >view as I understand. Guess all the factors given in the Noble Eight Fold Path >goes towards developing panna, which includes Right mindfulness. And developing >and cultivating panna is the very goal of the whole path and everything that is >talked about and written in the suttas has a role only towards this goal and >nothing else. > >thanks and metta >Shalini > > > > > #115588 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2011 8:33 pm Subject: Re: An Apparent Argument by the Buddha in Support of Free Choice truth_aerator Hello Howard, all, >H:It seems to me that the Buddha is saying here that regardless of >past kamma, one can do what should be done and refrain from what >should not be done unless one is convinced that >past kamma rules >that out. Comments anyone? If present action *solely* depended on previous Kamma, then how could anyone escape samsara? We have virtually countless store of past negative kamma, and unless one is an Aryan, one still does negative kamma. If kamma was linear (1 unit of vipaka per 1 unit of kamma), or even causality, then it would be impossible to achieve awakening by burning off all past unwholesome kamma. One has countless amount of past conditions to work them out. As one is experiencing countless amount of past conditions into countless time in the future, one is still accumulating something along the way. So as you can see, it would never occur. Also, IMHO, mere accumulation of good habits to overpower past accumulations is also impossible for above reasons. Kamma is non-linear, thus it is possible to exponentially attenuate it by doing certain proper, but hard actions NOW. =========================== 3. Sitting on a side the wandering ascetic Jambukh dana said to venerable S riputta: Friend S riputta, in this dispensation what is done with difficulty? Friend, going forth is difficult in this dispensation. 4. Friend, what is difficult for one who has gone forth? Friend, to one gone forth to delight in the dispensation is difficult. 5. Friend, what is the difficulty to one who delights in the dispensation? Friend, to one delighted in the dispensation living according to the Teaching is difficult. 6. Friend, how long does the monk living according to the Teaching take to attain perfection? Friend, not long! http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/3Samyutta-Nikaya/Samyutta4/37-Jambukhadak\ a-Samyutta/01-Jambukhadakasamyuttam-e.html ===== 1st, it says that the path is hard. It is not something that just happens solely due to past accumulations. If it happened only passively, in past tense, then it wouldn't be hard. It is hard because of the effort that goes against past tendencies. 2nd) It takes not long to reach results. No need for Aeons of Buddhist practice. With metta, Alex #115589 From: Kevin F Date: Thu Jun 9, 2011 8:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conditionality talks: part 1 Dear Shalini, Shalini: Thanks Kevin. This mail topic is really useful, I generally dont get to the stage of reading the document in detail however much I try. So I can learn this better by discussion. I have the following questions: 1. So by conanence condition, cetasikas arise as conditioned dhamma and the citta is the conditioning dhamma? 2. By mutuality condition, you mean cetasikas are supporting the arising and of citta and citta is supporting the formation of cetasikas or how is it? 3. So to distinguish conanence and mutuality here , conanence is kind of one way conditioning of co-arising dhammas and mutuality is reciprocal conditioning of each other of co-arising dhammas? 4. In Bhavanga citta, is a co-arising cetasika present? Kevin: I am glad you find the mail topic useful. I know how it can be hard to study these things, but it is more than worth it. That is one of the reasons that I decided to create this line of threads-- to try and make it easier and more readily approachable in a casual way, even while we are just reading our mail. :) Just a note: my last reply to you (the one you replied to last) did not populate on my list of received mail. Obviously, it did appear on yours. In case any members were not able to see it, I will repoduce it here after I reply to you. So, as to your questions. 1) So by conanence condition, cetasikas arise as conditioned dhamma and the citta is the conditioning dhamma? Kevin: As I understand, citta and cetasika must always arise together. There are no cases when they arise separately as they could not function without each other. To understand this more clearly it is good to really look at what the function of citta is and what the specific functions of all the cetasikas are. As to the Conascence condition connection between citta and cetasika, as one arises, it causes and helps the other one to arise at the same time, just as a light causes illumination in darkness automatically. 2) By mutuality condition, you mean cetasikas are supporting the arising and of citta and citta is supporting the formation of cetasikas or how is it? Kevin: And as far as Mutality condition is concerned it performs the function support and consolidation. What does this mean? Not only do they cause each other to arise together simultaneously (conascence condition) but they support and consolidate each other. For example, cittas rooted in lobha (a cetasika) perform a function of attaching. The thing that is attachment itself is lobha but with the help of the other cetasikas that arise with it, such as concentration, and feeling, etc, and with the citta that are their base, the citta and cetasikas work together to attach to an object. It is called a citta rooted in lobha because it (the citta along with the cetasikas), altogether, perform the function of "being attached" to an object. This is as I understand it to be. Perhaps Nina can speak more on this. 3) . So to distinguish conanence and mutuality here , conanence is kind of one way conditioning of co-arising dhammas and mutuality is reciprocal conditioning of each other of co-arising dhammas? Kevin: It's more that conascence condition causes dhammas to help each other to arise in unison or simultaneously, and that mutuality condition causes dhammas to support each other in performing their functions. For example, the rupa that is earth element supports the rupa that is water element and visca versa. For dhammas to be conditioned by mutality condition, they must also be related by way of conascence condition, though not all phenomena conditioned by conascence are likewise conditioned by mutuality. There are some examples to demonstrate this but I won't go into them now. 4) In Bhavanga citta, is a co-arising cetasika present? Kevin: Yes. With every citta there are cetasikas that arise. Citta cannot arise without cetasika, and a cetasika cannot arise without a citta or without the other cetasikas that arise together with it and support it by way of mutality and conascence, nor can any arise without their appropriate sense base. It's great that you ask all these questions. It helps me to learn and review before I respond to make sure I give the right information. This helps me learn as well. Thank you. :) Kevin ________________________________________ This is the post that I promised to reproduce: Great question. Allow me to quote from Nina's book, The Conditionality of Life. As for Conascence condition: "In the case of conascence-condition, a conditioning dhamma, paccaya dhamma, on arising, causes the conditioned dhammas, paccayupanna dhammas, to arise simultaneously with it. The Pāli term sahajāta in sahajāta-paccaya, conascence-condition, means: that which has arisen together. In the case of proximity-condition and contiguity-condition, the conditioning dhamma arises previously to the conditioned dhamma. We read in the “Visuddhimagga” (XVII, 77): “A dhamma which, while arising, assists (another dhamma) by making it arise together with itself is a conascence-condition, as a lamp is for illumination...” For the explanation of conascence-condition the “Visuddhimagga” uses the simile of an oil lamp: when its flame appears the light, colour and heat are produced simultaneously with it. Light, colour and heat produced by the flame are not present before the flame appears nor after it dies out 58. We read in the “Paṭṭhāna” (II, Analytical Exposition, 6, Conascence-condition) about different classes of phenomena, nāma and rūpa, mentioned in relation to conascence-condition. We read with regard to the first class: “The four immaterial aggregates (nāmakkhandhas) are mutually related to one another by conascence-condition.”- The Conditionality of Life > As far as mutuality condition goes... "Some of the phenomena which are related by conascence-condition are also related by mutuality-condition (aññamañña-paccaya). They condition one another reciprocally while they arise simultaneously. The realities that condition one another mutually, can, each of them, be in turn conditioning dhamma (paccaya) and conditioned dhamma (paccayupanna dhamma). We read in the “Visuddhimagga” (XVII, 78): “A state that assists by means of mutual arousing and consolidating is a mutuality-condition, as three sticks of a tripod give each other consolidating support.” Three sticks which are leaning against each other at the upper ends mutually support one another. Evenso the realities to which mutuality-condition pertains condition one another reciprocally. There are three classes of phenomena to which this condition pertains. As to the first class, the four nāmakkhandhas which condition one another by way of conascence, also condition one another by way of mutuality. They support and consolidate one another. As to the second class, the four Great Elements which are related to one another by conascence-condition are also related to one another by way of mutuality-condition. Solidity, cohesion, temperature and motion which arise together condition one another reciprocally and give each other mutual support. As to the third class, the paṭisandhi-citta with the accompanying cetasikas and the heart-base arising simultaneously condition one another by way of mutuality. As we have seen, at the moment of rebirth kamma produces, apart from the group of rūpas with the heart-base, two other groups, namely the group with the body-base and the group with sex. There is no relation of mutuality between the latter two groups and the paṭisandhi-citta. The other classes of phenomena which are related by conascence are not related by mutuality. The rūpa produced by citta is conditioned by that citta by way of conascence, but there is no relation of mutuality. " - The Conditionality of Life Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." ________________________________ #115590 From: Kevin F Date: Thu Jun 9, 2011 8:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Apparent Argument by the Buddha in Support of Free Choice Alex, Alex: ? We have virtually countless store of past negative kamma, and unless one is an Aryan, one still does negative kamma. Kamma is non-linear, thus it is possible to exponentially attenuate it by doing certain actions NOW. Kevin: All Ariyans, save for Arahants, create negative kamma. Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." #115591 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2011 9:19 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: An Apparent Argument by the Buddha in Support of Free Choice truth_aerator Dear Kevin, Howard, all, >Kevin: All Ariyans, save for Arahants, create negative kamma. So there has to be a sort of action or non-linear kamma mechanism to allow for only the limited past kamma and other kinds of accumulations to play themselves out. Otherwise, samsara could never stop if there would be "1 for 1" sort of effect of accumulations and kamma on their results. Almost, if not infinite, amount of past accumulations would in that case provide almost if not infinite amount of future effects that one would have to go through. Meanwhile going into infinite, or almost infinite future, one would be making accumulations on the way, thus extending such type of the process. Following N8P as ardently, earnestly, heefully and conscientiously as possibld could be the way out. N8P doesn't happen merely due to past accumulations for the reasons that I've said above. With metta, Alex #115592 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2011 9:43 pm Subject: Re: is it ok to get attached to one's teacher kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Dear KenH, all, > > >KH: Sorry Ken, but I don't think you do understand nama and rupa. If >you did, you would know there was no "conventional." There is only >nama and rupa; the conventional is pure illusion. > > > And where did the Buddha say this? > ---------------- Hi Alex, In the Sabba Sutta the Buddha says it all. :-) "Monks, I will teach you the all. Do you listen to it. And what, monks, is the all? It is eye and visible object, ear and sound, nose and scent, tongue and savour, body and tangible object, mind and mind-states. That, monks, is called the "all". Whoso, monks, should say: "Rejecting this all, I will proclaim another all,it would be mere talk on his part, and when questioned he could not make good his boast, and further would come to an ill pass. Why so? Because, monks, it would be beyond his scope to do so." Also there is the Loka Sutta, which Thanissaro B translates in the following way: 'The World' SN XXXV, 82 Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One: "'The world, the world (loka),' it is said. In what respect does the word 'world' apply? "Insofar as it disintegrates (lujjati), monk, it is called the 'world.' Now what disintegrates? The eye disintegrates. Forms disintegrate. Consciousness at the eye consciousness disintegrates. Contact at the eye disintegrates. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye -- experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain -- that too disintegrates. "The ear disintegrates. Sounds disintegrate... "The nose disintegrates. Aromas disintegrate... "The tongue disintegrates. Tastes disintegrate... "The body disintegrates. Tactile sensations disintegrate... "The intellect disintegrates. Ideas disintegrate. Consciousness at the intellect consciousness disintegrates. Contact at the intellect disintegrates. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect -- experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain -- that too disintegrates. "Insofar as it disintegrates, it is called the 'world.'" You will notice the translator includes "ideas" in the loka, and by so doing robs the sutta of all meaning. Please read Sarah's message #22188 in order to overcome that severe anomaly. Ken H #115593 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2011 9:48 pm Subject: Re: is it ok to get attached to one's teacher truth_aerator Dear KenH, all, > Hi Alex, > > In the Sabba Sutta the Buddha says it all. :-) > > "Monks, I will teach you the all. Do you listen to it. > And what, monks, is the all? It is eye and visible object, ear and > sound, nose and scent, tongue and savour, body and tangible object, > mind and mind-states. That, monks, is called the "all". > Whoso, monks, should say: "Rejecting this all, I will proclaim > another all,it would be mere talk on his part, and when questioned > he could not make good his boast, and further would come to an ill > pass. Why so? Because, monks, it would be beyond his scope to do >so." What about, lets say, eye consciousness? Where is it? What about contact (phassa)? Or Buddha's begging bowl which He used to collect alms-food? What about all the other words that Buddha has said? They are included and made of this "all". But as compounded phenomena, they do exist? With metta, Alex #115594 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 9, 2011 6:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Apparent Argument by the Buddha in Support of Free Choice Hi, Alex - In a message dated 6/9/2011 2:54:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hello Howard, all, > It seems to me that the Buddha is saying here > that regardless of past kamma, one can do what should be done and >refrain from what should not be done unless one is convinced that >past kamma rules that out. Comments anyone? If present action *solely* depended on previous Kamma, then how could anyone escape samsara? We have virtually countless store of past negative kamma, and unless one is an Aryan, one still does negative kamma. Kamma is non-linear, thus it is possible to exponentially attenuate it by doing certain actions NOW. ------------------------------------------------------ H: I'm not clear on this non-linearity notion of kamma (that Ven T seems to like a lot). Could you explain it to me? ------------------------------------------------------ IMHO, With metta, Alex ================================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #115595 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2011 10:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: An Apparent Argument by the Buddha in Support of Free Choice truth_aerator Hello Howard, all, >H:I'm not clear on this non-linearity notion of kamma (that Ven T >seems to like a lot). Could you explain it to me? By non-linear, we could see AN3.99 ""There is the case where a trifling evil deed done by a certain individual takes him to hell. There is the case where the very same sort of trifling deed done by another individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.099.than.html I suggest to study these three suttas at the same time: AN 3.61, MN101, AN3.99 There is such an absolutist conception of kamma that can be stated as "in whatever way you perform kamma, in that way you experience its results". Or more mathematically it could be stated that "1 unit of kamma produces 1 unit of vipaka". So if one where to perform 100 units, one would have to experience 100 units of results. In such a case Awakening would mean that one should stop performing any new kamma, and let the past kamma burn its effects out however much time it could take. If there was no first point for any being (infinity), then it would mean that kamma the effects of which we would have to experienced, is without beginning and thus its effects would be endless. Endless of kamma being done in the past, would absolutely require endless vipaka in the future. Moreover, it is almost impossible for an ordinary person not to make any (good or bad) kamma during the process of maturation of vipaka from infinite amount of past kamma. So basically, infinite kamma-vipaka would never run out. And if we believe that current action is due to past action (ex: bad kamma that one does now is due to accumulation of bad kamma in previous lives) then there doesn't seem a way out from a linear model of kamma, and bad actions could conveniently be excused on past accumulations. certain kind of non-Buddhist teaching on Kamma: "Monks, there are some priests & contemplatives who teach in this way, who have this view: 'Whatever a person experiences pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain all is caused by what was done in the past. Thus, with the destruction of old actions through asceticism, and with the non-doing of new actions, there will be no flow into the future. With no flow into the future, there is the ending of action. With the ending of action, the ending of stress. With the ending of stress, the ending of feeling. With the ending of feeling, all suffering & stress will be exhausted.' Such is the teaching of the Niganthas. ... "So I asked them further, 'Friend Niganthas, what do you think: When there is fierce striving, fierce exertion, do you feel fierce, sharp, racking pains from harsh treatment? And when there is no fierce striving, no fierce exertion, do you feel no fierce, sharp, racking pains from harsh treatment?' "'Yes, friend...' "'... Then it's not proper for you to assert that, "Whatever a person experiences pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain all is caused by what was done in the past. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.101.than.html =================================================================== With metta, Alex #115596 From: Kevin F Date: Thu Jun 9, 2011 11:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Apparent Argument by the Buddha in Support of Free Choice Alex, all, Alex: So there has to be a sort of action or non-linear kamma mechanism to allow for only the limited past kamma and other kinds of accumulations to play themselves out. Otherwise, samsara could never stop if there would be "1 for 1" sort of effect of accumulations and kamma on their results. Almost, if not infinite, amount of past accumulations would in that case provide almost if not infinite amount of future effects that one would have to go through. Meanwhile going into infinite, or almost infinite future, one would be making accumulations on the way, thus extending such type of the process. Kevin: No. Because of wisdom accumulated and lack of certain defilements, the Noble One is always born in the higher realms until Parinibbana. When there are no conditions for the sense bases to arise ever again (that is to say, when all 10 fetters are cut by wisdom), they cannot arise and mentality that arises based on them cannot arise. With metta, Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example, rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom itself >accumulates when ever it arises." ________________________________ #115597 From: "philip" Date: Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:14 am Subject: Craving leads to clinging philofillet Hi Nina Can you help me understand the link of craving leading to clinging? I tend to think about it based on the conventional meaning of the English words and I think that can lead to misunderstanding. Also, when I think coventionally it seems clinging leads to craving... Is it possible to provide examples from daily life? Thank you Nina, always appreciating your help, and all your kusala from so many years of helping people to understand Dhamma. Metta, Phil #115598 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:04 am Subject: Re: is it ok to get attached to one's teacher kenhowardau Hi Alex, ------ <. . .> > > "Monks, I will teach you the all. Do you listen to it. > > And what, monks, is the all? It is eye and visible object, ear and > > sound, nose and scent, tongue and savour, body and tangible object, > > mind and mind-states. That, monks, is called the "all". > > Whoso, monks, should say: "Rejecting this all, I will proclaim > > another all,it would be mere talk on his part, and when questioned > > he could not make good his boast, and further would come to an ill > > pass. Why so? Because, monks, it would be beyond his scope to do >so." > > A: What about, lets say, eye consciousness? Where is it? What about contact (phassa)? ------ KH: When, in this context, the Buddha says "eye and visible object" he means the world - all that exists - at the eye door. I think you are referring to the fact that, in other suttas, eye consciousness and various cetasikas (e.g., contact and feeling) are also mentioned. There are endless ways of classifying ultimate reality, but the end result is always the same, isn't it? - it's the namas and rupas that have presently arisen at one of the six doors. -------------- > A: Or Buddha's begging bowl which He used to collect alms-food? ------------- KH: That's what I am asking you: where are all the concepts? They are not withing the all (unless you are using Ven Thanissaro's translation). So, are they outside the all? Is there *anything* outside the all? You will notice the sutta says to proclaim anything outside the all would be "mere talk" (etc). ----------------- > A: What about all the other words that Buddha has said? They are included and made of this "all". But as compounded phenomena, they do exist? ----------------- KH: Perhaps I have misunderstood you, but I would say any supposedly separate thing somehow "made" or "compounded" of the all would be "outside the all" (and therefore not proclaimed by the Buddha). Ken H #115599 From: han tun Date: Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:10 am Subject: [dsg] Re: atta hi attano natho Dear Dieter, [Dieter]: Obviously other ascetics consider (ed) these means to be the end and by that miss(ed) the eye of the dhamma . I understand that in Myanmar these ascetics are called weizzars ( ? .. Han, please correct me ..) [Han]: I heard about the "wijjar" but I do not believe it or have an interest in it. So I have no comments. kind regards, Han