#116000 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Wed Jul 6, 2011 10:25 pm
Subject: Re: Abhidhammatthasangaha -- Re: Samadhi -- Re: Welcome -- Re: Liking calmness -- Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing 	nilovg

Dear Alex,
Op 4-jul-2011, om 19:39 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven:

> Not only that, but why did the Buddha teach Abhidhamma to Tavatimsa
> (or tusita) Devas? The story seems that in order to understand
> Abhidhamma, you need to hear it all in one session. It takes about
> 3-4 months to read it. Since only the devas can sit that long at a
> single sitting, the Buddha taught it to them.
------
N: I find it very meaningful that the Buddha taught them Abhidhamma
and satipa.t.thaana alternately. In other words, these must go together.
-----
Nina.



#116001 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Wed Jul 6, 2011 10:38 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] unpleasant bodily/mental feelings 	nilovg

Dear Alex,
Op 5-jul-2011, om 20:40 heeft A T het volgende geschreven:

> In "Survey" there is this phrase:
>
> "Unpleasant feeling cannot accompany cittas that are kusala, vipāka
> and kiriya."
>
> What kind of unpleasant feeling it talks about mental or physical?
--------
N: Mental, the domanassa that can only accompany dosa-muulacittas.
--------
>
> A: Akusalavipāka bodily feeling is always of pain, right?
------
N: yes, painful feeling.
------
>
>
> A: I wonder, can there be Akusalavipāka painful mental feeling? Or
> is only akusala (active kamma) can feel mentally painful?
-------
N: It is naama, it accompanies vipaakacitta experiencing an
unpleasant object through the bodysense. Very soon afterwards akusala
citta with domanassa can arise. It is difficult to differentiate
painful feeling that is vipaaka and unhappy feeling that is akusala.
It all seems to occur at one moment.
------
>
>
> A:Also I wonder if headache is bodily Akusala vipāka or mental one?
------
N: It is bodily painful feeling, thus accompanying vipaakacitta. You
use the term bodily akusala vipaaka, but it is naama. It is
experienced through the bodysense and that is why it is called bodily
feeling.
-----
Nina.


#116002 	From: "UziYaH" <uziyah@...>
Date: Wed Jul 6, 2011 10:54 pm
Subject: My Apology 	uziyah

I apologize for suggesting the moderators were not allowing my posts. It seems
the problem was with Yahoo and not Sarah and Jonathan. It took Yahoo three days
to let me know.

Namaste', ... howard

#116003 	From: "UziYaH" <uziyah@...>
Date: Wed Jul 6, 2011 11:08 pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Hello 	uziyah

Howard W. wrote, "I just found what I was thinking of in MN 131, namely the
following: "

Humbled, neophyte student needs to know, what is 'MN 131'  and where may I find
same?

Thank you and Namaste', ... howard

#116004 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Wed Jul 6, 2011 7:11 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello 	upasaka_howard

Hi, Dieter(and Bhante) -

In a message dated 7/6/2011 8:16:52 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
moellerdieter@... writes:

Hi  Howard (Bhante and Howard)

you wrote:

As I recently wrote to  Howard off list:
'I believe that the Buddha himself pointed out that the  past is gone, and
the future is only imagined. Of course, if we also note that  the present
lasts for no time at all, we then see a sort of complete  emptiness."
I just found what I was thinking of in MN 131, namely the  following:  "You
shouldn't chase after the past or place expectations on  the future.
What is past is left behind. The future is as yet  unreached  ..snip

D:  I think you will agree with me that  there is quite a difference
between ' not chasing after '.. and ' illusions we  created within the canyons
of
our mind' ,
--------------------------------------------------
H:
     I'm not sure about that. At any given  time,  the past *does not
exist*, and thinking of it as a reality *is* deluded.
--------------------------------------------------


finally our  present is  accumulated past , isn't  it?
-------------------------------------------------
H:
     No, I don' think so. It is the result of what  went before. There is no
"accumulated past" except as a slogan, it seems to  me.
----------------------------------------------

with Metta Dieter
===========================
With metta,
Howard


Seamless Interdependence

/A change in  anything is a change in  everything/

(Anonymous)


#116005 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Wed Jul 6, 2011 7:25 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello 	upasaka_howard

Hi, Howard -

In a message dated 7/6/2011 9:11:01 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
uziyah@... writes:

Howard  W. wrote, "I just found what I was thinking of in MN 131, namely
the  following: "

Humbled, neophyte student needs to know, what is 'MN  131'  and where may I
find same?

Thank you and Namaste', ...  howard
================================
     "MN" abbreviates "Majhima Nikaya" (the  middle-length collection of
sayings of the Buddha). In particular, MN 131 is one  of the suttas in MN. You
should look at _http://www.accesstoinsight.org/_
(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/) ,  a web site of major importance.

With metta,
HCW


Seamless Interdependence

/A change in  anything is a change in  everything/

(Anonymous)

#116006 	From: "UziYaH" <uziyah@...>
Date: Wed Jul 6, 2011 11:31 pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Hello 	uziyah

Namaste' Dieter,

You suggested, "... and ' illusions we created within the canyons of our mind' ,
finally our present is accumulated past , isn't it?"

My thoughts are that to state past and present are the same is an oxymoron.
Perhaps your thoughts were of karma which is accumulated in our younger stages
of soul development only to be expunged as our souls become fully accomplished
in the universal equilibrium of love.

The illusions of our past experiences only serves ego and are only able to be
expunged as we dwell within the Om of love in the eternal now.

These are but my humble thoughts. Take of them which resonate well within you
and perhaps we can discuss the rest.

Blessings and Peace, .... howard

#116007 	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
Date: Wed Jul 6, 2011 11:55 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello 	moellerdieter

Hi Howard,

you wrote:

( D:  I think you will agree with me that there is quite a difference between '
not chasing after '.. and ' illusions we created within the canyons of our mind'
)

'H: I'm not sure about that. At any given time, the past *does not  exist*, and
thinking of it as a reality *is* deluded.

D: 'exists' in the way the sutta I quoted

--------------------------------------------------

H : (D:finally our present is accumulated past , isn't it?)
-------------------------------------------------
H: No, I don' think so. It is the result of what went before. There is no 
"accumulated past" except as a slogan, it seems to me.


D: well , that is not only a slogan ,  we are the heirs of our actions  , it is
kamma which keeps us in  samsara .. the present is a kind of balance sheet of
our previous actions and   B.T.W.  : no book of life?  ;-)

with Metta Dieter

#116008 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Thu Jul 7, 2011 12:11 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Present moment awareness without controlling the object of awareness 	nilovg

Dear Alex,
Op 5-jul-2011, om 21:01 heeft A T het volgende geschreven:

>
> Recently I try to be aware of the present moment without labelling
> or choosing what to be aware off. (it is hard to develop one
> pointedness with almost constant headaches and other malaise like
> that). One doesn't need inner speech to be aware. Since all things
> have the triple characteristic (especially anicca is very
> pronounced) , one is aware of these characteristics that are
> present in every state.
>
-------
N: Not in the beginning, then it is more thinking about them.
Knowledge of the stages of insight can help us here. The first one
is: directly realizing naama as naama and ruupa as ruupa. Directly
distinguishing their different characteristics. And distinguishing
sense-door process and mind-door process.
See Survey the chapters on the stages of insight. This is important,
otherwise one may erroneously believe that the three general
characteristics can be directly known already in the beginning.

----
>
> A: Special states are not required as all states have triple
> characteristics that can be observed. My understanding is that
> after enough observation of triple characteristic there will be
> increase in wisdom, which will selflessly and without idea of "self
> control" alter the akusala behavior to kusala one.
>
-------
N: First of all dhamma, including akusala dhamma, has to be known as
just a conditioned dhamma. As Jon once remarked, no matter what
dhamma, kusala, akusala, they are all equally worthy to be objects of
sati and pa~n~naa. No selection. Eradication of akusala takes place
at the subsequent stages of enlightenment. For now we do not think of
that yet. And we do not try to be aware, trying is not the way. Sati
arises in its own time. The foundation is intellectual understanding.
What is especially important: no expectations, because then lobha is
around the corner.
-------
A:
> This isn't like practices that try to alter what is felt or
> perceived by deliberately focusing on one thing (be it the breath,
> kasina, rise &fall of the abdomen, etc). Just awareness of the
> present moment and characteristics of cittas/cetasikas/rūpa. I
> sometimes have actually felt the inconstancy and anattaness of
> thoughts when being aware (and without trying to control what arises).
>
------
N: We can notice that thoughts are beyond control, but his is not the
same as realizing the characteristic of anattaa of seeing, hearing,
visible object etc.
--------
> A: Maybe after enough of such little in-sights, wisdom will
> develop. What is your opinion about this? It seems that to go
> further into no-practice would be like totally not doing anything
> but reading awesome books (suttas, Abhidhamma commentaries, etc).
> But as we know, just reading will not do anything.
>
-------
N: We lead our daily life, reading and considering, discussing,
developing the perfections so that we are attentive on the needs of
others and are less concerned about ourselves, I cannot call this no-
practice.
I quote a passage about pain while in India:
-------
<This extremely long day caused me to have severe stomach aches while
sitting in the bus and during these moments I was considering painful
feeling and pondering over it. Later on, in Patna, Acharn Sujin
reminded me of the difference between awareness and thinking:

"There is still the idea of, `it is my pain'. Even though pain has a
characteristic it is still me, me, me. There can be thinking, `pain
is not mine, it is just a reality', but pain arises and falls away
while there is thinking about it. Do we really know nåma and rúpa?
We should know that pain is a reality which is nåma, but is there
development of understanding of any kind of dhamma so that insight
knowledge, vipassanå ñåna can arise? Everyone knows that there is
pain, but it is `my pain' until it is understood as just a reality.
The concept of me or mine is deeply rooted, until understanding is
developed to the stage that nåma is realized as nåma and rúpa as
rúpa.
There can be awareness of a reality as nåma, as just the reality that
experiences, even if it is not clear yet. It is developing, there can
be some understanding of the characteristic of nåma. When paññå
has been developed to the degree of vipassanå ñåna the
understanding of nåma and rúpa will be clearer. How can that degree
of understanding arise if there are no moments of developing
understanding now? Paññå has to begin."

When sati of satipatthåna arises, it can be aware of realities that
appear through the six doorways. One can begin to be aware of nåma,
the reality that experiences, and rúpa, the reality that does not
experience, even though their characteristics are not yet clearly
understood. There can gradually more understanding of nåma and rúpa.>
-------

In my other post I wrote that in the Heaven of Thirtythree, the
Buddha taught the Abhidhamma in alternation with satipatthaana, but
to be more precise, the Co. to the Majjhima Nikaaya wrote:  in
alternation with the Baddhekaratta Sutta.

> < the Buddha, in the Heaven of Thirtythree, taught the Abhidhamma
> in alternation with the Baddhekaratta Sutta to the devas who could
> not penetrate the profound and detailed teaching of the Abhidhamma
> on rúpa and arúpa (nåma) that have the three characteristics (of
> dukkha, impermanence and non-self). We read in the “Bhaddekaratta
> Sutta of Lomasaka"ngiya” that the deva Candana approached the
> venerable Lomasaka"ngiya and asked him whether he remembered the
> exposition and analysis of the Baddhekaratta Sutta. It appeared
> that both of them could not remember this, but Candana remembered
> the verses. He related that the Buddha had taught these when he
> dwelled in the Heaven of the Thirtythree. They are the following
> verses:
>
> The past should not be followed after, the future not desired.
> What is past is got rid of and the future has not come.
> But whoever has vision now here, now there of a present dhamma,
> The unmovable, unshakable, let him cultivate it
>  .
> Swelter at the task this very day. Who knows whether he will die
> tomorrow?
> There is no bargaining with the great hosts of Death.
> Thus abiding ardently, unwearied day and night,
> He indeed is “Auspicious” called, described as a sage at peace >.
---------
Nina.

#116009 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Thu Jul 7, 2011 12:15 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello 	nilovg

Hi Howard,
What a coincidence. I just quoted this to Alex and had not read your
post yet. I like this sutta very much: be aware of the present moment.
Nina.
Op 6-jul-2011, om 13:52 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven:

> I just found what I was thinking of in MN 131, namely the following:
> "You shouldn't chase after the past or place expectations on the
> future.
> What is past is left behind. The future is as yet unreached.
> Whatever quality
> is present you clearly see right there, right there. Not taken in,
> unshaken, that's how you develop the heart. Ardently doing what
> should be done
> today, for � who knows? � tomorrow death. There is no bargaining with
> Mortality & his mighty horde. Whoever lives thus ardently,
> relentlessly both day &
> night, has truly had an auspicious day: so says the Peaceful Sage."


#116010 	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
Date: Thu Jul 7, 2011 1:19 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello 	moellerdieter

Namaste Howard ,

thanks for your comment and lovely thoughts.
Unfortunately we not yet in that state , we still need to train ourselves by 
the guidelines of the Noble Path.

Your namesake  wrote recently :
'The fact, however, is that one begins where one is, and not where one hopes to
be.'

to which I replied : "let's carve that in stone ! ;-) "

over to you..

with Metta Dieter

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: UziYaH
   To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 3:31 PM
   Subject: [dsg] Re: Hello




   Namaste' Dieter,

   You suggested, "... and ' illusions we created within the canyons of our mind'
,
   finally our present is accumulated past , isn't it?"

   My thoughts are that to state past and present are the same is an oxymoron.
Perhaps your thoughts were of karma which is accumulated in our younger stages
of soul development only to be expunged as our souls become fully accomplished
in the universal equilibrium of love.

   The illusions of our past experiences only serves ego and are only able to be
expunged as we dwell within the Om of love in the eternal now.

   These are but my humble thoughts. Take of them which resonate well within you
and perhaps we can discuss the rest.

   Blessings and Peace, .... howard

#116011 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Wed Jul 6, 2011 9:47 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello 	upasaka_howard

Hi, Dieter -

In a message dated 7/6/2011 10:05:22 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
moellerdieter@... writes:

Hi  Howard,

you wrote:

( D:  I think you will agree with me  that there is quite a difference
between ' not chasing after '.. and '  illusions we created within the canyons
of our mind' )

'H: I'm not sure  about that. At any given time, the past *does not
exist*, and thinking  of it as a reality *is* deluded.

D: 'exists' in the way the sutta I  quoted

--------------------------------------------------

H :  (D:finally our present is accumulated past , isn't  it?)
-------------------------------------------------
H: No, I don'  think so. It is the result of what went before. There is no
"accumulated  past" except as a slogan, it seems to me.


D: well , that is not  only a slogan ,  we are the heirs of our actions  ,
it is kamma  which keeps us in  samsara .. the present is a kind of balance
sheet of  our previous actions and   B.T.W.  : no book of life?   ;-)

with Metta Dieter
================================
     I think perhaps we are differing only in  terminology.
     We certainly are heirs to our kamma. What  occurred before were
conditions for what occurs now. But the past is gone, and  while the conditions
were, they no longer are. But at the very time of their  occurrence in the
past, right then and there, they served as conditions for what  happens now.

With metta,
Howard


Seamless Interdependence

/A change in  anything is a change in  everything/

(Anonymous)

#116012 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Wed Jul 6, 2011 9:49 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello 	upasaka_howard

Hi, Nina -

In a message dated 7/6/2011 10:15:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
vangorko@... writes:

Hi  Howard,
What a coincidence. I just quoted this to Alex and had not read  your
post yet. I like this sutta very much: be aware of the present  moment.
Nina.
============================
     :-) Yes, I like it too!

With metta,
Howard


Seamless Interdependence

/A change in  anything is a change in  everything/

(Anonymous)

#116013 	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
Date: Thu Jul 7, 2011 2:11 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello 	moellerdieter

Hi Howard,

you wrote:

'I think perhaps we are differing only in terminology.
We certainly are heirs to our kamma. What occurred before were conditions for
what occurs now.'

D: yes


H: But the past is gone, and while the conditions were, they no longer are.  But
at the very time of their occurrence in the past, right then and there, they
served as conditions for what happens now.'

D: by our reaction we add conditions for the future .. but the stock of previous
actions (past) accompanies us , available as possible condition for future
result.
Do you see that differently?

with Metta Dieter


#116014 	From: "rjkjp1" <rjkjp1@...>
Date: Wed Jul 6, 2011 12:29 pm
Subject: Abhidhammatthasangaha -- Re: Samadhi -- Re: Welcome -- Re: Liking calmness -- Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing 	rjkjp1

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kumara Bhikkhu <kumara.bhikkhu@...>
wrote:
>
> Some more info from
> http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=3704#p53883
>
> > Do commentarial forecasts on the decline of the Dhamma preclude modern
insights as being inherently faulty compared to those of the elders?
>
++++++++++++++
Dear Bhikkhu
In the suttas the Buddha says the Dhamma will disapear after 500 years: it is
the commentaries that explain due to the Buddha's actions of putting in the
garuka rules for bhikkhuni and the holding of the first council that the sasana
was extended.
Do you believe that in fact the sutta should be taken at face value and the true
sasana is now extinct.
robert



#116015 	From: Howard Nylander <uziyah@...>
Date: Thu Jul 7, 2011 4:32 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello 	uziyah

Re: MN 131

Thank you. Have saved same to my 'favorites' for future perusal.

Namaste', .... howard
________________________________
From: "upasaka@..." <upasaka@...>
To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, July 6, 2011 9:25:23 AM
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello

� 
Hi, Howard -

In a message dated 7/6/2011 9:11:01 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
uziyah@... writes:

Howard W. wrote, "I just found what I was thinking of in MN 131, namely
the following: "

Humbled, neophyte student needs to know, what is 'MN 131' and where may I
find same?

Thank you and Namaste', ... howard
================================
"MN" abbreviates "Majhima Nikaya" (the middle-length collection of
sayings of the Buddha). In particular, MN 131 is one of the suttas in MN. You
should look at _http://www.accesstoinsight.org/_
(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/) , a web site of major importance.

With metta,
HCW


Seamless Interdependence

/A change in anything is a change in everything/

(Anonymous)


#116016 	From: "UziYaH" <uziyah@...>
Date: Thu Jul 7, 2011 6:24 am
Subject: [dsg] Re: Hello 	uziyah

Namaste' Dieter,

You shared, "Unfortunately we not yet in that state, we still need to train
ourselves by the guidelines of the Noble Path."

I would ask, "What is the purpose of the quest? What is the purpose of the Noble
Path except to achieve an end?"

I love the thought of, "Assume the virtue though you posses it not,"  even as I
love to dwell on possibilities rather than limitations.

Please forgive me if I speak of things perhaps not considered within Buddhists
concepts. I'm still learning, the reason I am on this forum.

Blessings and Peace, .... UziYaH



#116017 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Thu Jul 7, 2011 3:21 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello 	upasaka_howard

Hi, Dieter -

In a message dated 7/6/2011 12:18:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
moellerdieter@... writes:

Hi  Howard,

you wrote:

'I think perhaps we are differing only in  terminology.
We certainly are heirs to our kamma. What occurred before  were conditions
for what occurs now.'

D: yes


H: But the past  is gone, and while the conditions were, they no longer
are.  But at the  very time of their occurrence in the past, right then and
there, they served  as conditions for what happens now.'

D: by our reaction we add  conditions for the future ..
-------------------------------------------
HCW:
     Certainly.
-------------------------------------------

but the  stock of previous actions (past) accompanies us , available as
possible  condition for future result.
Do you see that differently?
--------------------------------------------
HCW:
     I just wouldn't put it in terms of past actions  "accompanying us". I
don't view the matter as these actions (or  markers for them) somehow being
carried along like baggage. The past actions  are, at the moment of
occurrence, already conditions for future fruition,  and the resultant vipaka
will
occur as soon as, but not until, all the requisite  conditions for it have
come to be.
----------------------------------------------



with Metta Dieter
============================
With metta,
Howard


Seamless Interdependence

/A change in  anything is a change in  everything/

(Anonymous)



#116018 	From: Vince <cerovzt@...>
Date: Thu Jul 7, 2011 7:44 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello 	cerovzt@...
Send Email Send Email
  	

>H 'I think perhaps we are differing only in terminology.
> We certainly are heirs to our kamma. What occurred before were conditions
> for what occurs now.'
> D: yes


this Sutta is related with the utility of rescuing causing actions

"'I am the owner of my actions, heir to my actions, born of my actions,
related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do,
for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir.' ...
[..]
"Now, based on what line of reasoning should one often reflect... that 'I am the
owner of my actions, heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my
actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for
evil, to that will I fall heir'? There are beings who conduct themselves in a
bad way in body... in speech... and in mind. But when they often reflect on that
fact, that bad conduct in body, speech, and mind will either be entirely
abandoned or grow weaker...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.057.than.html


best,
Vince.



#116019 	From: "Ken H" <kenhowardau@yahoo.com.au>
Date: Thu Jul 7, 2011 9:48 am
Subject: Re: Hello 	kenhowardau

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kumara Bhikkhu <kumara.bhikkhu@...>
wrote:
>
> UziYaH wrote thus at 10:06 06/07/2011:
> >Namaste' Howard,
> >
> >Thank you for your kindness in responding to my post. I look forward to
hearing from Ken Howard as well. My reality is that 'now' is all we have ever
had and is eternal. Everything else, past and future, is but illusions we
created within the canyons of our minds.
>
> Well said. When we're not busily lost "outside" or "inside", it's obvious,
isn't it? :-)
> And everything seems so much more alive.
> Nothing changed, and everything did.
> You don't believe that the body is yours.
> You don't believe that feelings are yours.
> You don't believe that thoughts are yours.
> And isn't that a relieved?
> Isn't that amazing?
>
> kb
>


Dear Ven Kumara, fellow Howards and all non-Howards,

I agree the present moment is everything; it is the all. But what is *in* the
all?

Only the Dhamma can tell us that, and only the ancient commentaries can tell us
how to understand the Dhamma.

I hope you will stay at DSG for a long time. This is one of only a few places in
the world where we can learn about the realities of the present moment.

Ken H

PS: apologies to all for my silence over the past two weeks, I have just
returned from a holiday in Phuket. I could read DSG messages at the internet
cafes there, but for some reason could not log on to send a reply.



#116020 	From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" <bhikkhu3@...>
Date: Thu Jul 7, 2011 8:45 am
Subject: Immaculate Virtue... 	bhikkhu5

Friends:
Purity of Virtue is the root of Perfection!

His virtue is immaculate. His wearing the bowl and robe pleases and inspires
trust.
His going forth will bear its fruit. A pure Bhikkhu never fears that
self-reproach
will obsess and consume his mind, since there is indeed no darkness inside
the sun...
A Bhikkhu of bright virtue shines forth even in the forest of reclusive
ascetics,
by the radiance of his past deeds, just like the moon lights up the clear
night sky...
Now if the body smell of purity a Bhikkhu can succeed in pleasing even the
deities,
what then of the perfume of their virtue? It is a far more splendid scent
than all
the other perfumes in the world, because the fragrance of pure morality
spreads
unhindered in all directions! The favours done for a pure & virtuous one,
even when
only few, will bear great fruit! The pure one thus becomes a fountain of
advantage!
No fetid fermentations plagues a virtuous one, since his pure behaviour
digged out
the root of future suffering in lives to come. Excellence among humans &
also even
among deities, if longed for, is not hard to gain for one whose morality is
perfected!
However, when ethics is fully perfected, then mind seeks only the supreme
Nibb��na:
The state where utterly pure peace prevails! Such is the blessed fruit of
clean virtue,
ethics, rectitude, goodness, integrity, righteousness and high-mindedness:
It awards
fulfillment, so let a wise one know it well: This root of all the branches
of perfection!

<...>

Have a nice & noble day!

Friendship is the Greatest!
  <http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Bhikkhu_Samahita> Bhikkhu Sam��
hita _/\_ *
<....>



#116021 	From: "philip" <philco777@...>
Date: Thu Jul 7, 2011 11:10 am
Subject: Citta is creating future realities 	philofillet

Hi Nina, how have you been? I promised to write about seeing my parents,
and what I further learned re conventional vs monentary death, perhaps later.
But for now I would like to share this very nice sentence from p. 242 of SPD:

      "We should be aware of the characteristic of the citta that is appearing
now, which is 'painting' or creating all the realities that will arise in the
future."

      I like this, no point dwelling in the future,  mindfulness of present mind
states will take care of the future.

      Well, I suppose as usual I don't like "should" applied to awareness of
momentary cittas, I still feel it might encourage people to try too hard to
think about the present moment, and take that thinking for satipatthana. Yes,
thinking is a reality, I know. But do we really  know when there is sati and
when there is thinking with attachment to having sati, thereby seeking to
control cittas and gain results just as insight meditators seek to do? In Canada
I was aware of using thinking about paramattha dhammas to relieve my stress and
fear. It was attachment, I feel.

     Well, I have gone off topic. The point was that mindfulness is the best way
to take care of the future...

       Metta,
       Phil

      Metta,
      Phil

       Metta,
        Phil



#116022 	From: Kumara Bhikkhu <kumara.bhikkhu@...>
Date: Thu Jul 7, 2011 12:34 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello 	venkumara

Dieter,

Dieter Moeller wrote thus at 17:17 06/07/2011:
>D: everything else , past and future , is but illusion ...?

By "illusions", we don't mean it didn't happen. We don't say, "My mother didn't
give birth to me. That didn't really happen. It's just an illusion."

If I'm asked, "Does the past exist?", I would have to say No, at least not
within my/this world (loka), which is only world I can perceive, a mass of
sankhara (construct/fabrication). The past exist only as thoughts happening now
in my mind; in other words it does not exist.

If someone says, "The past is an imagination," that wouldn't be far from the
truth. Truly, I need to *imagine* for the past to "exist". Without the
imagination, what past is there? So, in that sense, it's an illusion.

"The eye is to be seen as old kamma..." Of course. It's a product of past kamma.
Where is the "past kamma" now? It's gone, completely.

As mentioned yesterday, I'm leaving egroups today. Let me leave you with
something to discuss: How do you all understand what the Buddha meant by the
world, the origin of the world, the cessation of the world, and the path of
practice leading to the cessation of the world?


kb

>SN 35.145 translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu:
>
>"Monks, I will teach you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the path
of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Listen and pay close attention. I
will speak.
>
>"Now what, monks, is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated
& willed, capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The
body... The intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable
of being felt. This is called old kamma.
>
>"And what is new kamma? Whatever kamma one does now with the body, with speech,
or with the intellect: This is called new kamma.
>
>"And what is the cessation of kamma? Whoever touches the release that comes
from the cessation of bodily kamma, verbal kamma, & mental kamma: This is called
the cessation of kamma.
>
>"And what is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma? Just this
noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action,
right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is
called the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma.
>
>"So, monks, I have taught you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the
path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Whatever a teacher should do
- seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them - that have I
done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings.
Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is
our message to you."
>
>
>
>with Metta Dieter



#116023 	From: "Robert E" <epsteinrob@...>
Date: Thu Jul 7, 2011 1:33 pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing 	epsteinrob

Hi Nina.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Rob E,
> Op 3-jul-2011, om 6:35 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven:
>
> > Of course Buddha acknowledged that mindfulness could and should be
> > developed at all times, standing, sitting, lying, and in the midst
> > of all activities; but he also fully acknowledged the special role
> > that meditation could play in developing mindfulness, and this is
> > something we can certainly read in many places in the suttas.
> -------
> N: This depends on the accumulated skill and inclination of
> individuals, but it cannot be imposed as a rule for everybody, monk
> or lay person.

No one really imposes it as a rule in any case.  Most people gravitate to
meditation because they have the inclination, and other people who don't have
the inclination don't do it.  So from that point of view, there shouldn't really
be a problem. Those who meditate meditate, and those who don't don't.  But
despite this, we keep hearing that meditation is bad and magnifies self-view. 
That is what I object to, because I think it's a prejudice.  If you say what you
said above, that one must have the skill and inclination, that is very
reasonable and I would agree.

> > > ---------
> > > N: Persons can be a favorable condition, think of the good friend in
> > > Dhamma. As to sitting meditation, see above.
> > > --------
> >
> > Well, I would say that if persons can be a favorable condition,
> > then there is no reason why meditation, which Buddha often
> > referencing, cannot also create favorable conditions.
> --------
> N: If you mean by meditation samatha, yes, many favorable conditions
> have to be taken into account. Think of all the impediments to
> samatha mentioned in the Visuddhimamagga. These are not impediments
> to vipassanaa. This can be developed at any time, at any place, even
> when among crowds.
> ---------

When I am talking about meditation in this context I mean sitting meditation. To
my understanding, such sitting is geared towards both samatha and vipassana,
which grow naturally according to conditions and accumulations as always, and
support each other, as demonstrated by the progression in the anapanasati sutta,
which speaks of both mindfulness and pacification by turns.

> > > > > N: Right. Six doors, six worlds, here is the practice. This
> > is the
> > > > > way pa~n~naa develops.
> > > >
> > > > R: And is it developed adequately by accidentally noticing a
> > moment
> > > > of visible object walking down the street? Or is it more
> > adequately
> > > > developed by sitting in a quiet place and allowing the mind to
> > > > focus on what is arising?
> --------
> N: It is important to understand the difference between concept and
> reality. Seeing sees visible object, but a person is not seen.
> Because of sa~n~naa we associate many different experiences and thus
> we can think of a person. It is natural to think of persons. But it
> is a different matter to take a person for really existing and
> permanent. What we take for a person are only fleeting phenomena,
> citta, cetasika and ruupa. If we do not see this we may confuse
> concept and reality.

In meditation it is more obvious, not less, that what is arising is just a
momentary experience of physicality, feeling or thought.

> --------
> >
> > > >
> > > -------
> > > N: One should not confuse sati and samaadhi.
> >
> > R:I would not confuse them because sati is in the direction of
> > awareness, while samadhi is in the direction of deep concentration
> > and suppression of defilements.
> ------
> N: Right, that happens through jhaana.

Right.

> --------
> >
> > > >
> > > N: Listening and intellectual understanding are the conditions for
> > > sati to be aware of a reality.
> >
> > They may be preconditions, but are they sufficient in themselves to
> > promote the arising of sati? I think understanding + practice is
> > the traditional combination in Buddhism.
> --------
> N: There are many degrees of understanding. Pariyatti is intellectual
> understanding that can lead to pa.tipatti.

My sense is that pariyatti is preparation for patipatti, not that one leads
automatically to the other.  My understanding is that through practice pariyatti
is converted to patipatti.

> --------
> >
> >
> > N: ...There is nobody in this room. This can be
> > > directly experienced by gradually developing right understanding and
> > > this is the right Path."
> >
> > R: The question again is how does one experience this? Does it
> > happen only from past accidental arisings or from understanding
> > Dhamma?
> ------
> N: From pariyatti first and then from pa.tipatti. Understanding is
> accumulated from moment to moment. Understanding that arose in the
> past conditions understanding now. That is the way it grows.
> ------
> > R: Or is there an actual practical path of development? Can we use
> > the person doing something to realize that there is no one doing
> > anything? I think that is part of what the Buddha taught.
> ------
> N: We can come to understand even intellectually that there is no
> person doing something. That is a beginning.
> -------
> >
> > >
> > N: > If you like to be alone, be alone now with naama and ruupa.
> >
> > R: I don't actually like to be alone all the time, but sometimes it
> > is good, and to "be alone now with nama and rupa" is a good
> > invitation.
> ---------
>
> N: Yes, it is good but not easy. We all like company of people, but
> even that is a conditioned naama.

Good to realize that even when in company one is alone with nama and rupa, but
as you say that is not so easy to take.  One won't seek mental seclusion until
they are ready.  I spend quite a bit of time alone, but have many thoughts about
the people in my life to keep me "company."

Best,
Robert E.

- - - - - - - -



#116024 	From: Kevin F <farrellkevin80@...>
Date: Thu Jul 7, 2011 2:55 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello 	farrellkevin80

Dear Dieter, all,

  H: No, I don' think so. It is the result of what went before. There is  no
"accumulated past" except as a slogan, it seems to me.

D: well , that is not only a slogan ,  we are the heirs of our actions  ,  it is
kamma which keeps us in  samsara .. the present is a kind of  balance sheet of
our previous actions and   B.T.W.  : no book of life?   ;-)


Kevin:  With respect, sir, Kamma Condition is 1 of the 24 paccaya.  There is no
"us" kept in samsara nor any of "our previous actions" existing, ultimately
speaking.  There is only the presently arisen realities at any given moment (and
one experienced at a time by nama), which are oppressed by conditions.

Kevin

  ___________
With metta
Kevin


Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example,
rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with
those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom
itself >accumulates when ever it arises."



#116025 	From: Kumara Bhikkhu <kumara.bhikkhu@...>
Date: Thu Jul 7, 2011 3:45 pm
Subject: Re: Abhidhammatthasangaha -- Re: Samadhi -- Re: Welcome -- Re: Liking calmness -- Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing 	venkumara

Well said, Alex. But I suppose we would have let believers be believers, which
is another impermanent thing.

kb

truth_aerator wrote thus at 01:39 05/07/2011:
>Dear Bhante, all.
>
>Yes it is not difficult to open a pali program and do a little research with
the help of a dictionary. 89/121 citta as is not found in Abhidhamma Pitaka.
Nothing to say about process of cittas. Of course it is very possible to argue
that while the word is not found, the meaning is implied. Later systematization
may or may not be an innovation in meaning, only a systematization of what was
taught.
>
>The harder thing to answer is this.  While the early schools shared virtually
the same content in the suttas, they differed greatly in their Abhidhammas. The
story of Theravada Abhidhamma is not found in &#1058;ipitaka, it is found in the
commentary (atthasalini) to Abhidhamma (which itself does not claim its
origins).
>
>Not only that, but why did the Buddha teach Abhidhamma to Tavatimsa (or tusita)
Devas? The story seems that in order to understand Abhidhamma, you need to hear
it all in one session. It takes about 3-4 months to read it. Since only the
devas can sit that long at a single sitting, the Buddha taught it to them.
>
>So what about us, humans? If we can't understand it, and if it wasn't even
aimed at us...
>
>
>With metta,
>Alex
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>



#116026 	From: Kumara Bhikkhu <kumara.bhikkhu@...>
Date: Thu Jul 7, 2011 3:45 pm
Subject: But we shouldn�t think about the past, right? 	venkumara

Here's an extract from an article I completed recently, titled "Have You Cried
Lately? Meeting Dejection with Wisdom" Let it be my goodbye gift to you all.


But we shouldn�t think about the past, right?

Aren�t we supposed to just �live in the here and now and not dwell in the past�?
I�m quoting someone who suffers from depression from time to time. The words she
uses are actually fine, but how she understands it is quite another thing.

I see that many people are using this concept to cope with dejection: Forget it,
don�t think about it. Then if and when they come across the famous verse of
Bhaddekaratta Sutta (MN 131), in which the first line is often translated as
�Let one not trace back the past� or �revive the past�, it reinforces that view.
But is this view correct?

Let me dissect and explain that first line: Atiita.m naanvaagameyya.
	 atiita.m = past
	 naanvaagameyya = na anu + aagameyya
		 na = not
		 anu = (prefix) along, repeatedly, continually
		 aagameyya = optative of aagameti = would aagameti
			 aagameti = stay; wait, wait for, welcome, expect


So the sutta, in referring to the spiritual practitioner who is attentive of the
present, says that he (in idiomatic English) �would not dwell on the past�.

Now, how do we �dwell on the past�? As defined in the sutta itself, we get
carried away with delightful thoughts about the past. In other words, we are
lost in thoughts of the past. Now, there�s a fine�but important�line between
that and remembering past events while being present-minded.
Dwelling on the unhappy past increases the emotional burden. Remembering it to
allow the hurt to be released, however, decreases the emotional burden.

In suttas, we find occasions, before and after his awakening, where the Buddha
recollected the past. In fact, he recalled his countless past lives. We wouldn�t
take that to mean that the Buddha was dwelling on the past, and that he wasn�t
practising what he preached, would we?

Remembering (sati) is not the problem. Trying not to remember�now that creates a
problem. It�s aversion, you see? When I ignore issues unresolved within me, it�s
like ignoring the pests in the house. They would continue to proliferate, and I
wonder why things aren�t working for me.

How do I know whether I have let go of some unhappy past? Easy. I just need to
think about it, and watch the reactions. Or I could just think of the person,
and watch how I feel. Do I feel uncomfortable, or somewhat numb? Or do I feel
free and at ease? Do I see the event as an unpleasant truth that I wish had not
happened? Or do I see it as thoughts being formed in the mind, and even feel
gratitude? I can understand if you reacted, �Gratitude? How can I have gratitude
for that?� You can�t, until you�ve truly understood.

Forgetting is not the true way to let go, and it�s certainly not freedom. When
we truly let go of a memory, whether we think of it or not, we�re just as
fine�because we see it for what it is: a memory. Now that�s freedom.



#116027 	From: Kumara Bhikkhu <kumara.bhikkhu@...>
Date: Thu Jul 7, 2011 3:45 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma 	venkumara

Nina van Gorkom wrote thus at 17:37 06/07/2011:
>Venerable Bhikkhu Kumara,
>Op 6-jul-2011, om 4:19 heeft Kumara Bhikkhu het volgende geschreven:
>>  The Abhidhamma deals with paramattha dhammas that have
>> >unalterable characteristics and that can be directly experienced
>> >without naming them.
>>
>> kb> Would you think that preconceive notions (perceptions) may
>> colour one's view?
>>
>--------
>N: This danger exists if there is not a firm foundation. One hears
>about the Dhamma and then one may gain confidence, saddhaa. One finds
>that it makes sense what the Buddha taught. One studies and then
>understanding grows. This understanding may become deeper and develop
>into direct undrstanding that is accompanied by awareness. Provided
>one does not cling to direct understanding. Clinging can cause one to
>be on the wrong Path, imagining that one is directly aware of
>realities while there is only thinking of them with attachment.

kb: I meant preconceive notions due to reading the later works of disciples
(e.g., Abhidhammattha Sangaha). Don't you think that can colour and distort
one's view of the Early Buddhist Teachings?
>> >Situations, persons, terms and words change through the ages. Seeing,
>> >clinging, dislike, these are paramattha dhammas that do not change.
>>
>> kb> Yes, so what is called citta in a certain time and place may
>> mean differently at another. That's what I'm trying to get through.
>>
>------
>N: This happens, and many times I hear that Khun Sujin explains to
>the Thais: 'cit' or 'citcai' in Thai, or sati in Thai is not the same
>as what is meant in the Buddha's teachings.
>Actually, this happens all the time in conventional language. For
>example: effort or energy. One may feel very energetic, but in fact,
>energy can also arise with akusala citta, it is not always right
>effort. Even when lazy with attachment, there is effort, but with
>akusala citta. The details taught in the Abhidhamma help such a lot.
>Citta knows an object, it is accompanied by mental factors but citta
>is the chief in knowing an object. Seeing is a citta, hearing is a
>citta. But the name citta is not important. Without citta nothing
>could appear, visible object or colour could not appear, sound could
>not appear.
>The cognizing of an object one can name citta, or consciousness, or
>mind moment, it does not matter at all how one names it.

kb: You brought up  a good example. Have you noticed that, in the Suttas, the
citta does not know? So, if one were to read the suttas with the idea that the
citta is something that can know, wouldn't it lead to wrong understanding or
confusion?

You may be interested to find out that while orthodox Theravada claim that mano,
citta and vi��ana are synonymous, their distinction can be seen in the Suttas
where these terms are used differently. Peter Harvey has done an analysis of
this.
>-------
>>
>>
>> >N: It is so easy to take for mettaa what is attachment.
>>
>> kb> Yes, and as I see it, that's quite easy to notice, compared to
>> taking suppression for detachment; tolerance for acceptance, and
>> clinging & resistance for faith.
>>
>------
>N: Attachment may be very subtle and then it is not so easy to know
>the distinguish it from true mettaa. There are many degrees of
>attachment.

It's still relatively easy to notice.

Metta and the rest of the brahmavihara happens naturally when the mind is free
from defilements, even for a while. At the moment, it is clear that we're not
doing. It's but a natural expression of an undefiled mind (citta).

>>
>> kb>  However, with all due respect as some of them had been my
>> teachers, that's also the place where supposedly meditating monks
>> are most considered to be cold, unreal, and arrogant. I've lived
>> with and observed them long enough to admit that it's true. As I
>> revered them as saints, I got sucked into the culture and became
>> like them. I can see other contributing causes, but I believe that
>> the Abhidhammic view of the practice is a causal factor.
>>
>-------
>N: Perhaps those monks did not study enough, and then, book knowledge
>is not the real study. It should be applied in daily life. There may
>be conceit because of a lot of book knowledge, but can we say that
>the Abhidhamma is at fault?

Knowledge is not at fault. Clinging to knowledge (Abhidhamma or otherwise)
however does create suffering and obstruction to knowing and seeing
(�anadassana).

As mentioned earlier, "during the time of Mahasi Sayadaw, it was observed that
the women progressed the fastest, followed by the lay men. The slowest ones are
the monks!" Since the pariyatti Burmese monks are known for their study of
Abhidhamma, the observation suggests that the study had not been helpful.


>------
>N: Not at all bad manners. Your remarks are good and sharp and worth
>considering.

Thank you for letting me know that.

kb



#116028 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Thu Jul 7, 2011 6:05 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma 	nilovg

Venerable Bhikkhu Kumara,
Op 7-jul-2011, om 7:45 heeft Kumara Bhikkhu het volgende geschreven:
>
> >> kb> Would you think that preconceive notions (perceptions) may
> >> colour one's view?
> >>
> >--------
> >N: This danger exists if there is not a firm foundation. ...
>
> kb: I meant preconceive notions due to reading the later works of
> disciples (e.g., Abhidhammattha Sangaha). Don't you think that can
> colour and distort one's view of the Early Buddhist Teachings?
>
--------
N: It is important, as the Buddha said, to compare Vinaya, Suttanta
and Abhidhamma. They are in conformity with each other. The
Abhidhammattha Sangaha is firmly based on the ancient commentaries.
It is rather a short summary of them.
------
>
> kb: You brought up a good example. Have you noticed that, in the
> Suttas, the citta does not know? So, if one were to read the suttas
> with the idea that the citta is something that can know, wouldn't
> it lead to wrong understanding or confusion?
>
-------
N: Citta cognizes an object. Pa~n~naa that may accompany citta knows
or understands the nature of that object. Perhaps you are referring
to this distinction? Instead of cognizes, we can use the word know,
but this does not mean understanding the true nature.
Citta and cetasika are realities that know or experience an object,
whereas ruupa does not know anything.
-------
>
>
> K: You may be interested to find out that while orthodox Theravada
> claim that mano, citta and vi��ana are synonymous, their
> distinction can be seen in the Suttas where these terms are used
> differently. Peter Harvey has done an analysis of this.
>
------
N: I know that people find this a dilemma, I have heard this before.
In different contexts there are different terms, such as vi~n~naa.na
khandha, but the meaning is the same: the same as citta. Or
cakkhuvi~n~naa.na, seeing-consciousness. The citta that sees.
Mano-dhaatu and mano-vi~n~naa.na dhaatu, these are cittas, but with
specific meanings in different contexts. Here it is under the aspect
of dhaatu, element. There are so many aspects according to which
there are different classifications. They are meaningful details to
help us to see the anattaness of dhammas.
>
> >>
> >------
> >
> K: Metta and the rest of the brahmavihara happens naturally when
> the mind is free from defilements, even for a while. At the moment,
> it is clear that we're not doing. It's but a natural expression of
> an undefiled mind (citta).
>
------
N: It has to be developed while one is in the company of other
people. Then it is really a test! How much patience do I have?
-------
>
> K:  Since the pariyatti Burmese monks are known for their study of
> Abhidhamma, the observation suggests that the study had not been
> helpful.
>
--------
N: I think that we cannot know how helpful a study is for this or
that individual. We can only know our own cittas. Other people's
conduct may condition aversion and this is very human. Then it is
helpful to remember that both we ourselves and others are only
conditioned phenomena that do not stay. This is a way to more easily
let go, but I myself find this also difficult. Difficult, but not
impossible. When I have aversion, I am at fault, not other people.
The details taught in the Abhidhamma help us to see that what appears
as noble motives are in fact not so noble. We learn to know better
the deep underlying motives of our actions, speech and thought. Did
you read the second book of the Abhidhamma, the Vibha"nga? This is
very helpful. We should not only read the Dhammasangani but also
other parts of the Abhidhamma. For those who find classifications
difficult the Vibha"nga book is more accessible. I appreciate very
much Iggleden's introduction.
------
With respect,
Nina.
>

#116029 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Thu Jul 7, 2011 6:09 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello 	nilovg

Dear Ken H,
So happy you are back, I missed you. I hope you had a good time in
Phuket.
Now it is time to hear plenty of reminders from you about the present
moment. That is all there is.
Nina.
Op 7-jul-2011, om 1:48 heeft Ken H het volgende geschreven:

> PS: apologies to all for my silence over the past two weeks, I have
> just returned from a holiday in Phuket. I could read DSG messages
> at the internet cafes there, but for some reason could not log on
> to send a reply.


#116030 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Thu Jul 7, 2011 6:18 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] But we shouldn�t think about the past, right? 	nilovg

Venerable Bhikkhu Kumara,
Op 7-jul-2011, om 7:45 heeft Kumara Bhikkhu het volgende geschreven:

> Forgetting is not the true way to let go, and it�s certainly not
> freedom. When we truly let go of a memory, whether we think of it
> or not, we�re just as fine because we see it for what it is: a
> memory. Now that�s freedom.
-------
N: Only conditioned dhammas. Then we shall not think so much of 'I'.
What was I, how do I react, what am I thinking. We are so concerned
with ourselves, the writer of this post included. Only
satipa.t.thaana can cure us and that is the meaning of this sutta.
Nina.


#116031 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Thu Jul 7, 2011 6:52 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Does actual moment of insight require thoughts? 	nilovg

Dear Vince,
Op 28-jun-2011, om 3:08 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven:
>
>> N: Thus, we are not focussed on this naama or that ruupa, not
>> focussed on anything. It depends on the sati of what object it is
>> aware.
>
> V: in the Mahayana there are some practices to be focused in the
> perfection of all
> dhammas in the present moment.
>
> I'm long time interested to know if there is some equivalent or a
> similar
> teaching in Abhidhamma or the whole Theravada.
----------
> N: When the teaching is not concerned with knowing the present
> moment more precisely it is too vague for me. The Abhidhamma is
> very precise.
When I said: " we are not focussed on anything" I meant trying to
concentrate on a specific naama or ruupa, because satipa.t.thaana is
not the development of concentration but the development of
understanding.
Speaking of focussing, this is the function of ekaggataa cetasika or
samaadhi. This can be kusala, akusala vipaaka or kiriya. It
accompanies each citta. There are many more akusala cittas in our
life than kusala cittas, and thus samaadhi is mostly akusala. When
seeing has fallen away subtle clinging to what is seen is likely to
arise. But we do not notice this. We take one step or stretch out a
hand: lobha already. We cling to all sense objects that are
experienced in a day. But it is good to know, better than not knowing.

Nina.



#116032 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Thu Jul 7, 2011 7:08 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dormant conditions, was:wisdom and doing 	nilovg

Dear Rob E,
Op 2-jul-2011, om 7:18 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven:

> That passage makes clear that the anusaya are part of the
> conditioning factors, although dormant in their case, which are
> passed along from citta to citta. The anusaya are asleep, but they
> are able to be passed along as factors that are not active. Now, my
> remaining question is still: how is it that these inactive factors
> can "live" in each citta and be passed along while in a dormant or
> sleeping state?
>
---------
N: The term subtle defilement is used for the latent tendencies
because they themselves do not arise, but, they become active when
there is an opportunity, in the sense that they condition the arising
of akusala citta. They are lying dormant in each citta because they
are not yet eradicated. They are very stubborn and persistent and of
great strength. Do not be mistaken about the term lying dormant, they
are not so innocent, they are very dangerous. The Atthasaalini states
that they are lying latent 'in the sense of being firmly fixed'.
---------

> R: I guess in a way it is like asking how any characteristic can be
> passed along by the briefly arising citta?
>
-------
N: I know this is still a point for you. When looking at this in a
practical way it may help. We can notice that what we learnt in
childhood can still pop up. Where does that come from? It can only
arise because our life is  along series of cittas arising and falling
away, but connected. One citta that falls away conditions the
following one.
-----
Nina.

#116033 	From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro <dhammasaro@...>
Date: Thu Jul 7, 2011 10:07 am
Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma 	dhammasaro

Bhante Kumara,

If I may,  you wrote, in part:

kb>  However, with all due respect as some of them had been my teachers, that's
also the place where supposedly meditating monks are most considered to be cold,
unreal, and arrogant. I've lived with and observed them long enough to admit
that it's true. As I revered them as saints, I got sucked into the culture and
became like them.

May I gently suggest you do not continue writing such to layperson members? 
According the Vinaya-pitaka, it states a bhikkhu is not to say negative things
about other bhikkhu(s) where layperson(s) can hear or read; does it not?

I am reminded of Ajahn Thanissaro's writing in Chapter 8 "Respect" of his
Buddhist Monastic Code II:

An attitude of proper respect is a sign of intelligence. As SN VI.2
  indicates, it is a requisite condition for gaining knowledge and skill,
  for it creates the atmosphere in which learning can take place.

This is
  especially true in a bhikkhu's training, where so little can be learned
  through impersonal means such as books, and so much must be learned
through personal interaction with one's teachers and fellow bhikkhus.

AN VIII.2
  notes that the first prerequisite for the discernment basic to the holy
  life is living in apprenticeship to a teacher for whom one has
established a strong sense of respect. This attitude of respect opens
the heart to learn from others, and shows others one's willingness to
learn. At the same time, it gives focus and grounding to one's life. SN VI.2
  reports the Buddha as saying, "One suffers if dwelling without
reverence or deference." This was why, after his Awakening � when he had
  nothing further to learn in terms of virtue, concentration,
discernment, release, or knowledge and vision of release � he decided to
  honor and respect the Dhamma to which he had awakened.

peace...

metta (maitri),

Chuck (aka Dhammasaro)


To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: vangorko@...


       Venerable Bhikkhu Kumara,

Op 6-jul-2011, om 4:19 heeft Kumara Bhikkhu het volgende geschreven:

>  The Abhidhamma deals with paramattha dhammas that have

> >unalterable characteristics and that can be directly experienced

> >without naming them.

>

> kb> Would you think that preconceive notions (perceptions) may

> colour one's view?


<...>



#116034 	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
Date: Fri Jul 8, 2011 2:46 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello 	moellerdieter

Namaste Howard,

let's say the purpose of the quest is to reach the other shore .
To reach that goal a raft must be built in order to  cross the stream.
Much effort is  needed  which is difficult to develop by dwelling on
possibilities.
It could involve an underlying assumption that the other shore would eventually
come to oneself...

I think that the occurence of peak or religious experience ( incl. NDE ) is a
wake up call to start the quest , a trigger for the truth seeker and suppose ,
quite a number of of them found in the Buddha Dhamma their home.

The 4 Noble Truths , in particular the 8fold Noble Path ( the simile of the 
raft is used in the Buddha's teaching ) offers  the guideline , the direction
the seeker needs to approach for his aim.

In case you are not yet familar with the teaching , I would recommend to read
Ven. Nyanatiloka's introduction 'The Word of the Buddha '
see http://www.urbandharma.org/pdf/wordofbuddha.pdf

I would be glad if my comment may be useful for you,

with Metta Dieter

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: UziYaH
   To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 10:24 PM
   Subject: [dsg] Re: Hello

   Namaste' Dieter,

   You shared, "Unfortunately we not yet in that state, we still need to train
ourselves by the guidelines of the Noble Path."

   I would ask, "What is the purpose of the quest? What is the purpose of the
Noble Path except to achieve an end?"

   I love the thought of, "Assume the virtue though you posses it not," even as I
love to dwell on possibilities rather than limitations.

   Please forgive me if I speak of things perhaps not considered within Buddhists
concepts. I'm still learning, the reason I am on this forum.

   Blessings and Peace, .... UziYaH




#116035 	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
Date: Fri Jul 8, 2011 3:12 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello 	moellerdieter

Hi Howard,
you wrote:

I just wouldn't put it in terms of past actions "accompanying us". I don't view
the matter as these actions (or markers for them) somehow being
carried along like baggage. The past actions are, at the moment of occurrence,
already conditions for future fruition, and the resultant vipaka will
occur as soon as, but not until, all the requisite conditions for it have come
to be.'

as you mentioned ,  may be it is the terminology we differ

how about following  extract  (
http://www.londonbuddhistvihara.org/lectures_week/WEEK5.HTM ) :

  It is simply the law of cause and effect (kamma and kamma vipaka) Kamma is the
action,vipaka the effect or ripening. Wholesome actions produce wholesome
effects, unwholesome actions produce unwholesome effects. As you sow, so shall
you reap. Above all it is the volition which precedes the action which
determines whether it is wholesome or unwholesome; this means an action where
there is a desire for a result. The Buddha said, "It is volition (or will -
Cetana) which I call kamma. Through volition one performs kamma by means of
body, speech and mind."
This desire, no matter how mild it may be, is a mild form of craving (tanha) and
it lies behind practically every activity of life. Therefore to live and to
desire are more or less the same thing. Desiring is a creative act - it creates
k. Our personality is moulded by the accumulation of these desires. These are
acts of thought, word and deed. Both kamma and vipaka are essentially mental,
but we also use the term 'action' to denote acts of word or deed. There is an
ascending order of importance: if I think "I want to kill you", that is not as
strong as saying "I want to kill you", which is in turn is not as strong as
actually carrying out the deed. Every volitional action has consequences. It
must be emphasised that we are talking here only of volitional actions - in
Buddhism intention is of paramount importance; purely mechanical actions, like
switching on a light, have no kammic consequences. Involuntary, unintentional or
unconscious actions are not kamma. The function of volition is to direct the
mind in the sphere of good, bad or neutral activities. Volitional actions are:
will, determination, desire, hate, ignorance, conceit, wisdom. An action started
with good intention cannot have unwholesome effects, even if it misfires
(helping an old lady across the road, I trip and push her into the ditch). A
knife can be used to kill you or by a surgeon to remove your appendix.

Vipaka is the effect. Sensations, perceptions are vipaka. Whatever you see,
hear, smell, taste or experience through the sense of touch is vipaka. This is a
passive experience which we cannot control; but we may judge it to be pleasant
or unpleasant. This judging is not vipaka. It is reaction and this causes kamma.
Seeing a colour is vipaka, liking it or disliking it is not. These are not
results, but causes - causes which have kammic consequences. This is the crucial
moment when we can create either wholesome or unwholesome kamma. The liking or
disliking which arises after the moment of cognition is no longer vipaka. We
should try to understand what is vipaka and what is no longer vipaka.

unquote

with Metta Dieter




#116036 	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
Date: Fri Jul 8, 2011 3:27 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello 	moellerdieter

Dear Kevin

you wrote:

' Kevin: With respect, sir, Kamma Condition is 1 of the 24 paccaya. There is no
"us" kept in samsara nor any of "our previous actions" existing, ultimately
speaking. There is only the presently arisen realities at any given moment (and
one experienced at a time by nama), which are oppressed by conditions.

D:  no suffering being for whom the Buddha taught?
Kevin, there are good opportunities to speak ultimately , this  is not
necessarily one..

with Metta Dieter
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Kevin F
   To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2011 6:55 AM
   Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello
   Dear Dieter, all,

   H: No, I don' think so. It is the result of what went before. There is no
   "accumulated past" except as a slogan, it seems to me.

   D: well , that is not only a slogan , we are the heirs of our actions , it is
   kamma which keeps us in samsara .. the present is a kind of balance sheet of
   our previous actions and B.T.W. : no book of life? ;-)

   Kevin: With respect, sir, Kamma Condition is 1 of the 24 paccaya. There is no
   "us" kept in samsara nor any of "our previous actions" existing, ultimately
   speaking. There is only the presently arisen realities at any given moment
(and
   one experienced at a time by nama), which are oppressed by conditions.

   Kevin

   ___________
   With metta
   Kevin

   Sarah:"The citta itself (for example, rooted in ignorance, or, for example,
   rooted in >wisdom), plus all the other accompanying cetasikas which arise with
   those javana >cittas also accumulate by way of upanissaya paccaya. So, wisdom
   itself >accumulates when ever it arises."

   


#116037 	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
Date: Fri Jul 8, 2011 3:21 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello 	moellerdieter

Bhante,

thanks for your comment .
Unfortunately you are leaving , but  perhaps there is another possibility to
discuss this matter more in detail .
May you be well.

with Metta Dieter


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Kumara Bhikkhu
   To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2011 4:34 AM
   Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello
   Dieter,

   Dieter Moeller wrote thus at 17:17 06/07/2011:
   >D: everything else , past and future , is but illusion ...?

   By "illusions", we don't mean it didn't happen. We don't say, "My mother
didn't give birth to me. That didn't really happen. It's just an illusion."

   snip

#116038 	From: Howard Nylander <uziyah@...>
Date: Fri Jul 8, 2011 3:44 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello 	uziyah

Namaste' Dieter,

I love what you sent and have saved same for further study. Thank you for
sharing.�  Yet, my questions remains, is not the quest to obtain an end, such as
reaching the other shore?


My question is precipitated by the fact that Cayce suggests I am an 'old soul'
with this life being the possibility of my final transmigration to the realm of
souls. This is why I desire to achieve the 'Christed' mind of Jesus and the
Buddha mind of Master Gautama, which I feel are one and the same. Are there
provisions for this achievement within the teachings of Buddhism? Perhaps others
would care to share as well. Meanwhile, I will be downloading and studying the
material you sent. Thank you again for doing so.


In Loving Kindness and Compassion, .... howard



________________________________
From: Dieter Moeller <moellerdieter@...>
To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, July 7, 2011 12:46:25 PM
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello

� 
Namaste Howard,

let's say the purpose of the quest is to reach the other shore .
To reach that goal a raft must be built in order to cross the stream.
Much effort is needed which is difficult to develop by dwelling on
possibilities.
It could involve an underlying assumption that the other shore would eventually
come to oneself...


I think that the occurence of peak or religious experience ( incl. NDE ) is a
wake up call to start the quest , a trigger for the truth seeker and suppose ,
quite a number of of them found in the Buddha Dhamma their home.

The 4 Noble Truths , in particular the 8fold Noble Path ( the simile of the raft
is used in the Buddha's teaching ) offers the guideline , the direction the
seeker needs to approach for his aim.


In case you are not yet familar with the teaching , I would recommend to read
Ven. Nyanatiloka's introduction 'The Word of the Buddha '

see http://www.urbandharma.org/pdf/wordofbuddha.pdf

I would be glad if my comment may be useful for you,

with Metta Dieter

----- Original Message -----
From: UziYaH
To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 10:24 PM
Subject: [dsg] Re: Hello

Namaste' Dieter,

You shared, "Unfortunately we not yet in that state, we still need to train
ourselves by the guidelines of the Noble Path."

I would ask, "What is the purpose of the quest? What is the purpose of the Noble
Path except to achieve an end?"


I love the thought of, "Assume the virtue though you posses it not," even as I
love to dwell on possibilities rather than limitations.

Please forgive me if I speak of things perhaps not considered within Buddhists
concepts. I'm still learning, the reason I am on this forum.


Blessings and Peace, .... UziYaH



#116039 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Fri Jul 8, 2011 1:25 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello 	upasaka_howard

Hi, Dieter -

In a message dated 7/7/2011 1:28:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
moellerdieter@... writes:

Hi  Howard,
you wrote:

I just wouldn't put it in terms of  past actions "accompanying us". I don't
view the matter as these actions (or  markers for them) somehow being
carried along like baggage. The past  actions are, at the moment of
occurrence, already conditions for future  fruition, and the resultant vipaka
will
occur as soon as, but not until,  all the requisite conditions for it have
come to be.'

as you mentioned  ,  may be it is the terminology we differ

how about  following  extract  (
http://www.londonbuddhistvihara.org/lectures_week/WEEK5.HTM ) :
---------------------------------------------
HCW:

     My only hesitancy is the single mention of  "accumulation," but I find
even that actually okay since I  consider it just conventional speech.
Overall, then, I find the following to be  quite fine.
----------------------------------------------
It is simply the law of cause and effect (kamma and kamma  vipaka) Kamma is
the action,vipaka the effect or ripening. Wholesome actions  produce
wholesome effects, unwholesome actions produce unwholesome effects. As  you sow,
so shall you reap. Above all it is the volition which precedes the  action
which determines whether it is wholesome or unwholesome; this means an  action
where there is a desire for a result. The Buddha said, "It is volition  (or
will - Cetana) which I call kamma. Through volition one performs kamma by
means of body, speech and mind."
This desire, no matter how mild it may  be, is a mild form of craving
(tanha) and it lies behind practically every  activity of life. Therefore to
live
and to desire are more or less the same  thing. Desiring is a creative act
- it creates k. Our personality is moulded  by the accumulation of these
desires. These are acts of thought, word and  deed. Both kamma and vipaka are
essentially mental, but we also use the term  'action' to denote acts of word
or deed. There is an ascending order of  importance: if I think "I want to
kill you", that is not as strong as saying  "I want to kill you", which is
in turn is not as strong as actually carrying  out the deed. Every volitional
action has consequences. It must be emphasised  that we are talking here
only of volitional actions - in Buddhism intention is  of paramount
importance; purely mechanical actions, like switching on a light,  have no
kammic
consequences. Involuntary, unintentional or unconscious actions  are not kamma.
The function of
volition is to direct the mind in the  sphere of good, bad or neutral
activities. Volitional actions are: will,  determination, desire, hate,
ignorance, conceit, wisdom. An action started  with good intention cannot have
unwholesome effects, even if it misfires  (helping an old lady across the road,
I
trip and push her into the ditch). A  knife can be used to kill you or by a
surgeon to remove your appendix.

Vipaka is the effect. Sensations, perceptions are vipaka. Whatever you
see, hear, smell, taste or experience through the sense of touch is vipaka.
This is a passive experience which we cannot control; but we may judge it to
be pleasant or unpleasant. This judging is not vipaka. It is reaction and
this  causes kamma. Seeing a colour is vipaka, liking it or disliking it is
not.  These are not results, but causes - causes which have kammic
consequences.  This is the crucial moment when we can create either wholesome or
unwholesome  kamma. The liking or disliking which arises after the moment of
cognition is  no longer vipaka. We should try to understand what is vipaka and
what is no  longer vipaka.

unquote

with Metta Dieter

===============================
With metta,
Howard


Seamless Interdependence

/A change in  anything is a change in  everything/

(Anonymous)


#116040 	From: "Ken H" <kenhowardau@yahoo.com.au>
Date: Fri Jul 8, 2011 10:36 am
Subject: [dsg] Re: Hello 	kenhowardau

Hi Howard N (and Dieter),

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "UziYaH" <uziyah@...> wrote:
<. . .>
>
> You shared, "Unfortunately we not yet in that state, we still need to train
ourselves by the guidelines of the Noble Path."
>
> I would ask, "What is the purpose of the quest? What is the purpose of the
Noble Path except to achieve an end?"
-----------

KH: The answer is not in the words "to achieve an end," it is in the way those
words are understood.

There is no self � no sentient being � that achieves an end; there are only the
presently arisen  namas and rupas.  Therefore, in the teaching of the Buddha,
all references to achieving an end (etc) are to be understood in terms of a
single moment of namas and rupas.   The Path (magga-citta) achieves the end
known as nibbana .  Lesser (mundane) forms of the Path achieve the end known as
Path-development (vipassana-bhavana).

You might have noticed by now that the DSG membership contains two schools of
thought. There are those of us who understand the Dhamma in terms of a single
moment of nama and rupa, and there are those of us who understand the Dhamma in
terms of people and things to do (formal meditation).

Unfortunately, the two will never meet; only one way can be the right way.  But,
even so, we continue to discuss in good spirits - there is no better pastime
than Dhamma discussion.

Ken H


>
> I love the thought of, "Assume the virtue though you posses it not,"  even as
I love to dwell on possibilities rather than limitations.
>
> Please forgive me if I speak of things perhaps not considered within Buddhists
concepts. I'm still learning, the reason I am on this forum.
>
>



#116041 	From: "Robert E" <epsteinrob@...>
Date: Fri Jul 8, 2011 5:39 pm
Subject: Direct Textual Evidence (Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing) 	epsteinrob

Hi Nina.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
>

> > What we are told instead that we have to understand the statements
> > in the suttas and Abhidhamma in the "context of the teachings as a
> > whole" without further explanation of how that is to be done; and
> > we are told that every passage describing the specific methods of
> > practicing meditation that abound in both sutta and Visudhimagga
> > are not instructions but "descriptions" of what some individuals
> > happened to be doing at the time the suttas were given or the
> > Visudhimagga was composed.
> ------
> N: I would not fall over the words description or instruction. Shall
> we say: pointers. If you are inclined to samatha do this or that so
> that you develop it in the right way.
> -------

"Pointers" is fine with me, although when there are systematic instructions it
makes more sense to say "instructions."

"If you are inclined to A then do B to develop it."

This is a causal relationship between doing and results, which is still in
support of purposeful doing, or practice.

> > R:
> > When Buddha states directly that the monks should strive with all
> > their might and be diligent and unyielding in their intention to
> > reach enlightenment, we are told that he is just speaking
> > conventionally and really means that these are arising dhammas that
> > appear by themselves and no one should really do or intend anything.
> ---------
> N: His words were a condition for the monks to really listen to him
> and not be negligent.

Does that mean that he did not mean what he said?

> -------
> >
> > R: If one is committed in advance to dismissing every reference to
> > meditation, volition, right effort or other things to be focused
> > on, intended, willed or done in order to develop the path, it is
> > doubtful that those passages will ever be interpreted correctly, or
> > taken at face value for what they actually say.
> ------
> N: It is not a matter of dismissing, but take volition and right
> effort in the right way: they are cetasikas, non-self. This should
> not be forgotten, but we do forget all the time.
> Is it not "I" who is reading and discussing at this moment now?

Action such as right effort can exist without "self" or "I" doing anything.  The
illusion is that of "self."  That does not mean that action or effort are
illusions.

Best,
Robert E.

- - - - - - - - - -



#116042 	From: "jonoabb" <jonabbott@...>
Date: Fri Jul 8, 2011 5:47 pm
Subject: [dsg] What Would Be Revising 2? Re: Revising 1: Arising of Mundane Paññaa 	jonoabb

Hi Robert E

(115253)
--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" <epsteinrob@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Jon.
> ...
> > [RE:] Well I guess a lot hinges on one's faith that this is the way things
work, that things happen as the result of past-life kusala which lead to greater
development of the path.
> > > ===============
> >
> > J:  No, I don't think there needs to be that kind of faith at all.  Just a
willingness to keep an open mind about the possibility of the kamma/vipaka
connection.
>
> [RE:] That's interesting.  Well, I definitely have an open mind.  I just tend
to be agnostic about things I haven't directly experienced or else resolved by
some sort of evidence.  I guess if you had a trusted teacher who had experienced
the truth of this, that would also do the trick.  Those were the good old days
when Buddha and the others were around...
> ===============

J:  Well I'm not sure about that.  The Buddha said that truths had to be
realised, and were not to be taken on trust.  So even having the Buddha as a
teacher would not be a short-cut ;-)).  Dhammas have to be known by direct
experience.

> ===============
> > J:  ...The hidden reality is revealed not by looking at conventional reality
through the microscope of the teachings, but by reflecting on the teachings and
considering how they might relate/apply to the present moment.
>
> [RE:] That's intriguing, Jon.  And if the "present moment" is not that which
is being experienced, ie, the conventional reality that I am currently aware of,
then what is it?
> ===============

J:  A good question ("What exactly is "the present moment"?").

We can agree, I think (I hope:-)), that the insight to be developed in order for
enlightenment to be attained is insight into the true nature of the dhammas
spoken of by the Buddha.

Direct knowledge of a dhamma requires that the dhamma be presently arising.  So
I see the present moment as meaning, in the context of the teachings. the
dhammas that are presently arising and that can be the object of
awareness/insight (if that awareness/insight should arise).

So while conventionally speaking the present moment is, as you say, the present
conventional reality, I understand the Buddha to be pointing to a reality that
could be described as reality in a deeper sense or, as it is described in the
abhidhamma, in the absolute sense.

Now as I understand the teachings, this reality in the absolute sense is not to
be discerned by a deeper study of conventional things, but by coming to see how
the world of dhammas is a world other than the world of conventional things.

Jon



#116043 	From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" <bhikkhu3@...>
Date: Fri Jul 8, 2011 8:43 am
Subject: Forest Bliss... 	bhikkhu5

Friends:
Remote & Solitary is Forest Bliss!
The forest bhikkhu pays much attention to the experience of forest.
Thereby he enters deeper yet unattained depths of concentration.
By living remote he is not distracted by any unsuitable phenomena.
He is free from anxiety and stress. He abandons attachment to life.
He enjoys a taste of the bliss of seclusion, and the silenced peace.
He lives secluded and apart. Calm and remote abodes delight his heart.
The hermit that in woods can dwell alone, may gain the bliss as well.
Whose savour is beyond the price of royal bliss even in any paradise.
So let the forest delight a wise man for his precious dwelling's site.
Sources: MN 121, AN III 343, Vism I 73
ALONE
The one who sits and lives solitary,
& walks alone finds great delight
in the silence of the forest...

Dhammapada
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/Canon/Sutta/KN/Dhammapada.Verse_305.story.htm>
story 305
SUCH ONE
The One wearing only 3 robes,
who is thin with veins showing,
who meditates alone in the forest,
such one is a Holy One...
Dhammapada
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/Canon/Sutta/KN/Dhammapada.Verse_395.story.htm>
story 395


  <http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Forest_Bliss.htm>
http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Forest_Bliss.htm
Have a nice & noble day!

Friendship is the Greatest!
  <http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Bhikkhu_Samahita> Bhikkhu
Sam�hita _/\_ *
http://What-Buddha-Said.net <http://what-buddha-said.net/>
Forest Bliss...

#116044 	From: Howard Nylander <uziyah@...>
Date: Fri Jul 8, 2011 12:12 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello 	uziyah

Namaste' Ken Howard,

I am pleased to hear from you. By now, you may have noticed, from other posts,
� that I was born with the name of Howard Kenneth, changed to Nylander when a
wise and gentle Swede� adopted me in my early teens.


Thank you for taking your time to share your insights. The thought came to me,
after I posted to Dieter, that the effort to achieve would hinder ones
experience in dwelling in the eternal moment of 'now', or perhaps that of
'nibbana' within the duality of� our mental and physical realms. Perhaps this is
to what you are alluding.� From my experience, I see this as the seventh and
final level of 'old soul' development. Perhaps you would care to continue to
elucidate.


I thank Dieter for sending me the beautiful "Words of Buddha", which I have
downloaded and am in the process of printing. I'm sure I will learn much from
this.


I loved your closing statement of , "...there is no better pastime than Dhamma
discussion." I find this to be my joy in the closing years of my life. Thanks
again for sharing.


In Loving Kindness and Compassion, .... howard


________________________________
From: Ken H <kenhowardau@...>
<...>

KH: The answer is not in the words "to achieve an end," it is in the way those
words are understood.

There is no self – no sentient being – that achieves an end; there are only
the
presently arisen namas and rupas. Therefore, in the teaching of the Buddha, all
references to achieving an end (etc) are to be understood in terms of a single
moment of namas and rupas. The Path (magga-citta) achieves the end known as
nibbana . Lesser (mundane) forms of the Path achieve the end known as
Path-development (vipassana-bhavana).
<...>



#116045 	From: "jonoabb" <jonabbott@...>
Date: Fri Jul 8, 2011 7:58 pm
Subject: Re: should one try one's best? 	jonoabb

Hi Robert E

(115254)
--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" <epsteinrob@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Jon.
>
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" <jonabbott@> wrote:
>
> > J:  There is no kaamma that leads to a 'mixed' result.  Kamma is either
kusala or akusala, leading to kusala (pleasant) or akusala (unpleasant) vipaka.
> >
> > A 'mixed result' is in fact the result of both good kamma and bad kamma,
each bringing its own appropriate result.
>
> [RE:] So the negative kamma could lead one to born in unpleasant surroundings,
while the positive kusala kamma could lead one to have good things happen while
in those same surroundings?
> ===============

J:  Yes, exactly so.  Any combination of good and bad results could occur (the
possibilities are infinite).

Jon



#116046 	From: "ptaus1" <ptaus1@...>
Date: Fri Jul 8, 2011 8:06 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: What Kamma? 	ptaus1

Hi Sarah,

Re 114444

> S: The cuti citta (death consciousness) can only arise as a result of past
kamma from a previous life, just like the patisandhi citta and bhavanga cittas
that occurred during the life, experiencing the same object.

pt: Just checking - kamma as a paccaya (asynchronous one) only conditions
vipaka, cuti, patisandhi and bhavanga cittas, right?

> S: From the moment of birth, death is assured.

pt: What does that mean? I can't quite place it because I think birth citta and
death citta of the same life have different objects, so it cannot be that birth
citta directly conditions death citta via the many bbavanga cittas in between. 
Thanks

Best wishes
pt



#116047 	From: "ptaus1" <ptaus1@...>
Date: Fri Jul 8, 2011 8:23 pm
Subject: Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening 	ptaus1

Hi Alex and KenH,

Re 114767

> > KenH: The point I have been trying to make to Alex is that there are >only
namas and rupas. There are no cars, trees or sentient beings.  >Therefore, when
we ask if *any* of those concepts ultimately exist >(or >are reborn etc) the
only way to answer is with an explanation >of >namas >and rupas.
>
> Alex: If cars and trees do not really exist, why not try to drive into the
tree at 100 mph? After all,  they don't exist. :)
>
> This kind of speculation about ontological non-existence simply is not
relevant to the actual experience, and the Buddha probably didn't teach it
either.
>
> Emptiness, IMHO, is emptiness from  nicca, sukha, Atta. It is not some new-age
teaching of solid things not existing.


pt: As is the tradition, every three months or so you guys return to the subject
of driving into trees, and then I usually chime in with something like the
following (sorry I'm a bit late this time):

As I understand it, when KenH says things like "no trees, no cars", he is in
fact referring to an instance of insight. When an instance of insight is
occurring of a vipassana nana strength), the object of citta at the time is not
a concept such as a tree or a car, but a dhamma like a visible object, or
perception, etc. Sort of like when the sutta says - form is anatta, perception
is anatta, etc. So in an instance of insight, consciousness and wisdom are
preoccupied with a dhamma and its characteristics, not concepts.

Then, in the next split second, a few mind-door processes later, once an
instance of insight has fallen away, consciousness may take a conceptualisation
of a tree as object. And this is where we leave the world of insight and enter
the world of common sense, science, etc. And then there might be conceptualized
recollection that driving into trees is no good, and then that trees should be
avoided. Etc. Of course, nothing wrong with common sense and science, they are
very helpful, but for someone interested in insight (like KenH), they probably
aren't of special interest.

So in terms of a Dhamma discussion, imo, you guys are basically arguing apples
and oranges - the two mind-door processes are with entirely different cittas,
with two different classes of objects and two different sets of cetasikas.

So basically Alex, when KenH says "there are no trees, cars, people, etc," you
need to mentally translate his words into smth like "during an instance of
insight, the citta is only concerned with processing a khanda (a dhamma and its
characteristics), and is capable of processing conceptually the trees, cars,
etc, only in later mind-door processes."

Best wishes
pt



#116048 	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...>
Date: Fri Jul 8, 2011 9:18 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: What Kamma? 	sarahprocter...

Hi Pt,

like you, I'm very behind, but so pleased to see your notes, I'd like to give a
quick response as I get my wetsuit and gear ready for our daily sunrise ocean
swim in the morning here in Manly.

--- On Fri, 8/7/11, ptaus1 <ptaus1@...> wrote:
> S: The cuti citta (death consciousness) can only arise as a result of past
kamma from a previous life, just like the patisandhi citta and bhavanga cittas
that occurred during the life, experiencing the same object.
...

>pt: Just checking - kamma as a paccaya (asynchronous one) only conditions
vipaka, cuti, patisandhi and bhavanga cittas, right?
...
S: Sort of. Remember that cuti, patisandhi and bhavanga cittas are also vipaka
cittas. So more accurate to say it conditions vipaka cittas and kamma
conditioned rupas, ie. kammaja rupas. These rupas are only conditioned in
sentient beings and arise from the first moment of life, i.e from the time of
the patisandhi citta, such as heart-base, body-sense and physical life-faculty.
All the faculties arise in due course.
...
> S: From the moment of birth, death is assured.
...
>pt: What does that mean? I can't quite place it because I think birth citta and
death citta of the same life have different objects, so it cannot be that birth
citta directly conditions death citta via the many bbavanga cittas in between. 
Thanks
....
S: The patisandhi (birth) citta and cuti (death) citta have the same object in a
given life-time. This is exactly the same object as all the bhavanga
(life-continuum) cittas in between. In fact, they are all the same kind of
bhavanga cittas, but the first and last ones have these particular names to
differentiate them.

What it means is that as soon as the patisandhi citta has arisen, it is certain
that there will be a cuti citta later - whether one moment, a hundred years or a
very long time later in the case of devas. In the case of arahants, there is no
more birth and therefore, no more death. Again, this is all by kamma.

Of course, there is also the birth and death of each citta at each moment.

Pls let me know if there's more behind your question or more to be discussed.

Metta

Sarah

p.s I know you're very busy with your jobs, but let us know if you'd like to
come over some time!
===============



#116049 	From: "Ken H" <kenhowardau@yahoo.com.au>
Date: Fri Jul 8, 2011 10:25 pm
Subject: Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening 	kenhowardau

Hi pt and Alex,

---------
> pt: As is the tradition, every three months or so you guys return to the
subject of driving into trees, and then I usually chime in with something like
the following (sorry I'm a bit late this time):
----------

KH: You had me worried, but better late than never! :-)

--------------
> pt: As I understand it, when KenH says things like "no trees, no cars", he is
in fact referring to an instance of insight.
--------------

KH: I am sure you are right but, as usual, I am not sure why you choose to put
it the way you do. The Dhamma is the Dhamma whether it is understood or not
(whether there is insight or not). Regardless of insight there is always only
nama and rupa � never any people, trees or cars.

---------------------
> pt: When an instance of insight is occurring of a vipassana nana strength),
the object of citta at the time is not a concept such as a tree or a car, but a
dhamma like a visible object, or perception, etc. Sort of like when the sutta
says - form is anatta, perception is anatta, etc. So in an instance of insight,
consciousness and wisdom are preoccupied with a dhamma and its characteristics,
not concepts.
--------------------

KH: Could we say, "When we are talking about the Dhamma (the way things are in
ultimate reality) we say that dhammas are anatta, we don't say that concepts are
anatta (or that concepts are anything)"?

--------------------------
> pt: Then, in the next split second, a few mind-door processes later, once an
instance of insight has fallen away, consciousness may take a conceptualisation
of a tree as object. And this is where we leave the world of insight and enter
the world of common sense, science, etc.
--------------------------

KH: OK but, strictly speaking, there are only the six worlds described in the
suttas - inhabited solely by namas and rupas. There is no seventh world
inhabited by people etc.

-------------------------------
> pt: And then there might be conceptualized recollection that driving into
trees is no good, and then that trees should be avoided. Etc. Of course, nothing
wrong with common sense and science, they are very helpful, but for someone
interested in insight (like KenH), they probably aren't of special interest.
------------------------------

KH: Exactly! They are immaterial to Dhamma discussions. We may as well be
arguing over whether a flying purple elephant has pink toes or purple toes.
These matters have no bearing on the issues of a Dhamma discussion.

------------------------
> pt: So in terms of a Dhamma discussion, imo, you guys are basically arguing
apples and oranges - the two mind-door processes are with entirely different
cittas, with two different classes of objects and two different sets of
cetasikas.

So basically Alex, when KenH says "there are no trees, cars, people, etc," you
need to mentally translate his words into smth like "during an instance of
insight, the citta is only concerned with processing a khanda (a dhamma and its
characteristics), and is capable of processing conceptually the trees, cars,etc,
only in later mind-door processes."
----------------------

KH: Thanks for helping out. Personally I would prefer to say, "In a Dhamma
discussion we are concerned with the characteristics of dhammas, not with the
characteristics of concepts. And *the* major characteristic of dhammas is that
they are devoid of atta. Ultimate reality is totally devoid of people, cars and
trees. There are only dhammas."

Ken H



#116050 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Fri Jul 8, 2011 7:02 pm
Subject: The Fourth Jhana: The Royal Road to Awakening 	upasaka_howard

Hi, all -

     The seven factors of awakening are  mindfulness, effort (or energy),
rapture (or joy), calm (or peace),  concentration (or mental unifaction),
equanimity, and investigation of  phenomena.
     The factors routinely cultivated  during jhanas include all of these
except the last, with mindfulness,  energy, concentration, calm, and
especially equanimity reaching their  height in the fourth jhana. Investigation
of
dhammas can  also be developed, and optimally so, from the base of the  fourth
jhana, a pristine state of clarity. (This attainment isn't automatic  in
the fourth jhana, however, for intentional turning attention and effort
towards that investigation is required.) If attainment of this factor of
investigation is accomplished, then all the factors of awakening are  achieved
via
passage to the fourth jhana, and, thus, attainment and  mastery of the
fourth jhana is the royal road to awakening. It is the  base from which Gotama
awakened and became the Buddha.
     If one can, in any lifetime, master the first four  jhanas, it is a
lifetime of ultimate worth. And effort spent leading in that  direction is
effort very well made.

With metta,
Howard


Hindrances

/Suppose there were a river, flowing down  from the mountains — going far,
its current swift, carrying everything with it —  and a man would open
channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the  current in the middle
of the river would be dispersed, diffused, &  dissipated; it wouldn't go far,
its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't  carry everything with it.
In the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these  five obstacles,
hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment,  i.e., sensual
desire, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety,  and sceptical doubt,
when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment  to understand what
is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the  benefit of others,
to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to  realize a superior
human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge &  vision: that is
impossible/

(From the Avarana  Sutta)

#116051 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Fri Jul 8, 2011 7:21 pm
Subject: TYPO Re: [dsg] The Fourth Jhana: The Royal Road to Awakening 	upasaka_howard

Hi, all -

In a message dated 7/8/2011 9:03:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
upasaka@... writes:

concentration (or mental unifaction)
===========================
     That word, of course, is 'unification'.

With metta,
Howard


Seamless Interdependence

/A change in  anything is a change in  everything/

(Anonymous)

#116052 	From: "Ken H" <kenhowardau@yahoo.com.au>
Date: Fri Jul 8, 2011 11:32 pm
Subject: Re: Hello 	kenhowardau

Hi Howard N,

------
>HN: I am pleased to hear from you. By now, you may have noticed, from other
posts, � that I was born with the name of Howard Kenneth, changed to Nylander
when a wise and gentle Swede� adopted me in my early teens.
------

KH: Yes, I saw that. My given names are Kenneth Howard (in that order). I grew
up being called Howard, but in later life I am increasingly called Ken.

---------------------
> HN: Thank you for taking your time to share your insights. The thought came to
me, after I posted to Dieter, that the effort to achieve would hinder ones
experience in dwelling in the eternal moment of 'now', or perhaps that of
'nibbana' within the duality of� our mental and physical realms. Perhaps this is
to what you are alluding.� From my experience, I see this as the seventh and
final level of 'old soul' development. Perhaps you would care to continue to
elucidate.
--------------------

KH: I am alluding to something totally different from everything else. It is
totally unknown to people in general (and that includes the majority of
modern-day Buddhists).

As you say, the effort to achieve hinders right mindfulness. But that is not
because effort disturbs meditation. It is because the effort referred to is a
conventionally known effort.

On the other hand, the effort referred to in the Dhamma is something completely
different from anything conventionally known. It is a conditioned dhamma that
arises, functions and ceases in a trillionth of a second.  It is totally beyond
control.

That is the effort we have to understand in order for right mindfulness to
occur.

-------------------------
> HN: I thank Dieter for sending me the beautiful "Words of Buddha", which I
have downloaded and am in the process of printing. I'm sure I will learn much
from this.
-------------------------

KH: I would urge you to understand it in terms of satipatthana (right
understanding of a presently arisen nama or rupa). Please don't understand it in
a conventional way (relating to sentient beings etc).

---------------------------------
> HN: I loved your closing statement of , "...there is no better pastime than
Dhamma discussion." I find this to be my joy in the closing years of my life.
Thanks again for sharing.
--------------------------------

KH: Thank you, always a pleasure. When we see our closing years in terms of
satipatthana we know everything is the same as it was in our prime. There is
only one moment of consciousness at a time, and when that consciousness falls
away nothing continues on to the next moment. Every moment of consciousness
contains our birth, life and death. Any other existence is an illusion.

Ken H



#116053 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Sat Jul 9, 2011 12:26 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Citta is creating future realities 	nilovg

Dear Phil,
It is so nice to hear from you. How were your parents, I understood
they are both in a home now?
Op 7-jul-2011, om 3:10 heeft philip het volgende geschreven:
(from Survey, p. 242):
> "We should be aware of the characteristic of the citta that is
> appearing now, which is 'painting' or creating all the realities
> that will arise in the future."
------
N: Kamma at this moment will have different effects in the future, as
we read. Also the outward appearance of beings is different.
-------
>
> I like this, no point dwelling in the future, mindfulness of
> present mind states will take care of the future.
>
> Well, I suppose as usual I don't like "should" applied to awareness
> of momentary cittas, I still feel it might encourage people to try
> too hard to think about the present moment, and take that thinking
> for satipatthana. Yes, thinking is a reality, I know. But do we
> really know when there is sati and when there is thinking with
> attachment to having sati, thereby seeking to control cittas and
> gain results just as insight meditators seek to do?
------
N: You are right. There is always the danger of deluding oneself, but
by listening and discussing again and again there will be more
understanding and this understanding can detect when one is on the
wrong Path.
---------
> Ph: In Canada I was aware of using thinking about paramattha
> dhammas to relieve my stress and fear. It was attachment, I feel.
---------
N: But understanding and attachment can alternate very quickly. The
fact that you were thinking of paramattha dhammas, not only of
situations and persons shows that there is also understanding. If you
had not listened and studied you would not even know that there are
paramattha dhammas. There are paramattha dhammas, such as seeing and
thinking for everybody, but they are often not known as paramattha
dhammas.
-------
> Ph: Well, I have gone off topic. The point was that mindfulness is
> the best way to take care of the future...
------
N: I appreciate your confidence. As Sarah says, and I like this,
Dhamma is the best medicine. We may think about this with attachment,
but there are also moments of understanding that Dhamma is the truth.
Better to consider the truth than going on worrying, such as about
health issues of dear people.
------
Nina.


#116054 	From: Howard Nylander <uziyah@...>
Date: Sat Jul 9, 2011 2:02 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello 	uziyah

Thank you, Brother Ken, for sharing these valuable insights. It will take me
some time to 'absorb' what you have shared, but it is my joy to try to do so.


Namaste', .... howard



#116055 	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
Date: Sat Jul 9, 2011 2:50 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello 	moellerdieter

Hi Howard , all ,

you wrote:

My only hesitancy is the single mention of "accumulation," but I find even that
actually okay since I consider it just conventional speech.
Overall, then, I find the following to be quite fine.
----------------------------------------------

D: always glad to find consens  ;-)

just a couple of thoughts  coming into my mind concerning  this excerpt:

Exc."It is simply the law of cause and effect (kamma and kamma vipaka) Kamma is
the action,vipaka the effect or ripening. Wholesome actions produce
wholesome effects, unwholesome actions produce unwholesome effects. As you sow,
so shall you reap. Above all it is the volition which precedes the action
which determines whether it is wholesome or unwholesome; this means an action
where there is a desire for a result. The Buddha said, "It is volition (or
will - Cetana) which I call kamma. Through volition one performs kamma by means
of body, speech and mind."
This desire, no matter how mild it may be, is a mild form of craving (tanha) and
it lies behind practically every activity of life. Therefore to live
and to desire are more or less the same thing.

D: yes...The Law of Dependent Orgination describes  the "origination of the
whole mass of suffering"    , i.e. concerning the second Noble Truth (in 
relation to the first)


Exc."Desiring is a creative act - it creates k."


D: ..the energy ,fuel  for action


Exc." Our personality is moulded by the accumulation of these desires. These are
acts of thought, word and deed. Both kamma and vipaka are
essentially mental, but we also use the term 'action' to denote acts of word or
deed. There is an ascending order of importance: if I think "I want to
kill you", that is not as strong as saying "I want to kill you", which is in
turn is not as strong as actually carrying out the deed.

D: not so sure about the importance .. what is worse: the planning or the
execution?


Exc."Every volitional action has consequences. It must be emphasised that we are
talking here only of volitional actions - in Buddhism intention is of paramount
importance; purely mechanical actions, like switching on a light, have no kammic
consequences. Involuntary, unintentional or unconscious actions are not kamma.


D: I think not easy to separate ..not guarding the mind  can have serious
effects


Exc."The function of volition is to direct the mind in the sphere of good, bad
or neutral activities. Volitional actions are: will, determination, desire,
hate, ignorance, conceit, wisdom."

D: source?


Exc. " An action started with good intention cannot have unwholesome effects,
even if it misfires (helping an old lady across the road, I trip and push her
into the ditch). A knife can be used to kill you or by a surgeon to remove your
appendix. "

D:   good intention to be  be seen within the framework of wholesome action ,
the tenfold kammapatha


Exc. "Vipaka is the effect. Sensations, perceptions are vipaka. Whatever you
see, hear, smell, taste or experience through the sense of touch is vipaka.
This is a passive experience which we cannot control; "

D:  yes, as it is said (S.N. 35, 145)
   'Monks, I will teach you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the path
of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Listen and pay close attention. I
will speak."Now what, monks, is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma,
fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The tongue...
The body... The intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed,
capable of being felt. This is called old kamma '

Exc."but we may judge it to be pleasant or unpleasant. This judging is not
vipaka. It is reaction and this causes kamma. Seeing a colour is vipaka, liking
it or disliking it is not. These are not results, but causes - causes which have
kammic consequences"
D: yes  : 'And what is new kamma? Whatever kamma one does now with the body,
with speech, or with the intellect: This is called new kamma.'

Exc."This is the crucial moment when we can create either wholesome or
unwholesome kamma. The liking or disliking which arises after the moment of
cognition is no longer vipaka. We should try to understand what is vipaka and
what is no longer vipaka. "
D: further I think we may see the difference between Sankhara and Sankhara
Khanda in D.O.  And here the Abhidhammic  introduction of the 52 concomitants
(cetasika)  into D.O . refering mainly to the latter is interesting to note.
Exc"but we may judge it to be pleasant or unpleasant. This judging is not
vipaka. It is reaction and this causes kamma. Seeing a colour is vipaka, liking
it or disliking it is
not. These are not results, but causes - causes which have kammic consequences.
"
D: yes , new kamma  ....some people seem to assume that non-action is the way
out (of samsara/enlightenment)

neglecting :

"And what is the cessation of kamma? Whoever touches the release that comes from
the cessation of bodily kamma, verbal kamma, & mental kamma: This is called the
cessation of kamma."   "And what is the path of practice leading to the
cessation of kamma? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve,
right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness,
right concentration. This is called the path of practice leading to the
cessation of kamma."

of course (the path of ) practise means action .. the threefold training of the 
Noble Path .
any comment ?


with Metta Dieter



#116056 	From: "Robert E" <epsteinrob@...>
Date: Sat Jul 9, 2011 6:27 am
Subject: Re: meditation. Was: wisdom and doing 	epsteinrob

Thanks, Nina,
Appreciate your comments.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Rob E,
> Thanks for your kind message.

Rob E.:
> > What would you say is the source of that view then, for those who
> > feel strongly that it is a Right View-based approach that has no
> > real room in it for meditation and other forms of practice? If it
> > is not derived from the Abhidhamma and commentaries, where does
> > that approach come from? Is it a specific tradition within
> > Theravada, or how would you define it?
> >
> ------
> N: Alex once mentioned the many suttas dealing with jhaana, but there
> are also many that do not deal with jhaana. See the beginning of
> Kindred Sayings: <The eye, monks, is impermanent. What is impermanent
> is dukkha...> And the following suttas.

There is no doubt that Buddha often talks about mindfulness, insight and
understanding, and directly seeing the nature of things as they arise. But this
is not outside of meditation - vipassana is the main theme and goal of
meditation.  Samatha/jhana is a means, not an end.

> Again, what is meditation? But further on you say more about
> meditation. Samatha and vipassanaa have different aims, different
> methods. But for both forms, satisampaja~n~na is indispensable.

I would disagree to some extent.  Certainly samatha and vipassana are different
parts of the process and have different immediate aims.  Samatha to the level of
jhana is a very deep specialized state, so it is not the same as the mechanism
of mindfulness/insight which is one of seeing and knowing, not of experiencing a
particular type of state or suppressing the ordinary defiled state.  So yes they
are different.  But they are part of the same process if one takes the path of
jhana to deep insight. It is a path very well outlined by the Buddha.  I agree
that it may not be the only path for everyone; there may be exceptions. But to
see them as different paths that lead in different directions is only true in
Hinduism.  It is not true in the way that jhana is used by Buddhists, I think.

> Thus
> right view or right understanding are necessary for both samatha and
> vipassanaa.

I would agree that right view/right understanding is essential for complete
knowing and seeing; but I don't see the relationship as totally linear - that
right understanding has to be complete before there can be any samatha or
vipassana.  I think they interact together and as seeing grows, understanding
grows; as understanding grows, seeing grows; as samatha grows there is more
space for seeing and knowing, etc.  I see it as an interactive, synergistic
process that grows by degrees.

> -------
> N:
> >
> >
> >
> > > Also, there is no rejection of samatha,
> > > it is more: in what way is it developed in relation to vipassanaa or
> > > together with vipassanaa. This is rather a subtle point.
> >
> > It is a point that has been of great interest to me. My definition
> > of meditation is based in anapansati and in my view it includes
> > both the development of sati and samatha, and that they should be
> > developed in some balance. I see the anapanasati sutta and part of
> > the satipatthana sutta as describing the development of both.
> >
> > ------
> >
> N: True, anapanasati can be a subject of samatha and also of
> vipassanaa. You remember the tetrads the Vis. divides the anapanasati
> sutta:
>
> In the word commentary to the above quoted sutta the Visuddhimagga
> (VIII, 223-226) mentions with regard to the first tetrad (group of
> four clauses, marked I-IV) of the sutta the different stages of
> insight-knowledge which are developed after emerging from jh�na. We
> read:
> < On emerging from the attainment he sees that the in-breaths and out-
> breaths have the physical body and the mind as their origin; and that
> just as, when a blacksmith's bellows are being blown, the wind moves
> owing to the bag and to the man's appropriate effort, so too, in-
> breaths and out-breaths are due to the body and the mind.
>
> Next he defines the in-breaths and out-breaths and the body as
> materiality, and the consciousness and the states associated with the
> consciousness as the immaterial...
> Having defined nama-rupa in this way, he seeks its condition...>
>
> The Visuddhimagga then mentions all the different stages of insight
> (Visuddhimagga VIII, 223 -225). We then read:
> <After he has thus reached the four noble paths in due succession and
> has become established in the fruition of arahatship, he at last
> attains to the nineteen kinds of "Reviewing Knowledge", and he
> becomes fit to receive the highest gifts from the world with its
> deities.>
> --------
>  From this you can see that it is not an easy matter at all.
> -------

Certainly not an easy matter at all, although some of the things that are
described may take place naturally at different stages.  Still, I think it is
correct that at whatever level one is at, that samatha and mindfulness can
develop and should develop to some extent together, rather than separately, that
they can support each other, as calm allows seeing and seeing allows for more
calm, and that the work with the breath in anapanasati is remarkably well suited
for the development of both.  Not easy, but still a very well-designed package
for full development of the necessary factors.

> > R: I don't consider meditation as a vehicle that is only for the
> > development of samatha. If it did not include the development of
> > satipatthana I would agree with you that it was not a full vehicle
> > for the path.
> >
> -------
> N: The other way round: The development of satipa.t.thaana includes
> everything, also jhaana of those who developed it. Jhaana should not
> be taken for self.

I think there is an implication there that if one sees jhana as a facilitator
and object of insight that somehow one has thus taken jhana for self.  I don't
see the connection there; it is not direct, but more like an implication that
somehow the utilization of jhana has to involve self-view, while the development
of insight does not. But I think that the mindful practitioner will not do this.
He or she will guard against taking jhana for self and will instead see it as a
state in which insight can be developed through calming the defiled responses
and states, and opening up a space for seeing and knowing.  It is not that self
does this, but that it is part of a process.

> -------

...

  ...I see meditation as a setting
> > of conditions that allow such moments to arise more readily. I
> > don't think it is as easy to understand the present reality in
> > the midst of many sense experiences and distractions of life.
> >
> ------
> N: It is not easy but it can gradually be learnt. I think that the
> development of jhaana is much more difficult. ... Ekaggataa or samaadhi
opposes
> desire for sense objects, kaama chanda. We cling to all sense objects
> that appear.
> When considering these factors, how hard it is to develop them and to
> really know them when they arise. Such a lot has to be known!
> ------
> >
> >
> > N:> Are you satisfied
> > > with the way you apply yourself to calm meditation
> >
> > R: I would not say my goal in meditation is to be as calm as
> > possible. It is more to have some degree of calm but to just be
> > present and see what arises, whatever it may be.
> >
> ------
> N: But if what arises is not seen as only a conditioned dhamma there
> may be an idea of self all the time.
> ------

That is why I agree that it is most important to develop mindfulness as well,
along with samatha, and even if following the path of jhana mindfulness must be
developed and maintained so that it does not turn into a mindless and attached
state of pacification.  That is a danger and it must be guarded against.  On the
other hand, without some understanding and development of samatha, it is very
difficult to get the calm, concentration and focus to develop more steady
mindfulness leading to greater vipassana.  So in my understanding it is a
balanced and collaborative effort between these qualities that has to be
employed.

In some cases, a person needs to develop more awareness and wakefulness because
they are a kind of contented type who may be prone to sloth and torpor and the
mind has to be engaged in awareness to develop mindfulness.  Another person may
just not be able to focus well at all because they are nervous and active and
their mind is always flitting around, so that person whose mind is more
disturbed needs to develop more samatha and concentration and learn to settle
down and focus in order to develop mindfulness.  I think this kind of practical
thinking about the mind and its qualities and how to practice is a sensible way
to think. And anapanasati has applications to all these things.  This to me is
more sensible development than waiting for insight or samatha to come "out of
nowhere."

> > N: > and do you find
> > > that it brings sufficient results for you?
> >
> > Well, as hard as I debate on this point, I have not been very good
> > about my practice in recent times. So I can't really say that it is
> > sufficient right now, but in the past it has seemed to have a very
> > positive impact in a number of different ways, and without me
> > willing anything about it or trying to get a specific result. Of
> > course, whether I meditate or not is also subject to
> > conditions. :-) The truth is that as much as I may think that
> > meditation is good, I really am aware that I am not in charge, even
> > of that.
> >
> -------
> N: That is good.
> -------
> >
> > N: > I can see from your posts that you are very earnest and
> > serious about
> > > this whole matter.
> >
> > R: Yes, it does matter to me, and I do think it is a difficulty to
> > bridge the gap on this issue with my friends here. But I appreciate
> > the effort on both sides!
> >
> ------
> N: I appreciate your openmindedness.

Thanks, Nina.  Certainly having this kind of discussion makes one consider
carefully what the different elements of development are, and it is good to
consider everything very carefully.  Thanks for your engagement with this
important subject!

Best,
Robert E.

= = = = = = = = =



#116057 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Sat Jul 9, 2011 5:05 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello 	upasaka_howard

Hi, Dieter -

In a message dated 7/8/2011 12:50:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
moellerdieter@... writes:

Hi  Howard , all ,

you wrote:

My only hesitancy is the single  mention of "accumulation," but I find even
that actually okay since I consider  it just conventional speech.
Overall, then, I find the following to be  quite fine.
----------------------------------------------

D: always  glad to find consens  ;-)

just a couple of thoughts  coming  into my mind concerning  this excerpt:

Exc."It is simply the law  of cause and effect (kamma and kamma vipaka)
Kamma is the action,vipaka the  effect or ripening. Wholesome actions produce
wholesome effects,  unwholesome actions produce unwholesome effects. As you
sow, so shall you  reap. Above all it is the volition which precedes the
action
which  determines whether it is wholesome or unwholesome; this means an
action where  there is a desire for a result. The Buddha said, "It is volition
(or
will  - Cetana) which I call kamma. Through volition one performs kamma by
means of  body, speech and mind."
This desire, no matter how mild it may be, is a  mild form of craving
(tanha) and it lies behind practically every activity of  life. Therefore to
live
and to desire are more or less the same thing.

D: yes...The Law of Dependent Orgination describes  the  "origination of
the whole mass of suffering"    , i.e. concerning  the second Noble Truth (in
relation to the  first)


Exc."Desiring is a creative act - it creates  k."
-----------------------------------
HCW:
     What does "Exc." abbreviate?
-----------------------------------

D: ..the energy ,fuel  for action


Exc." Our personality is moulded by the accumulation of these  desires.
These are acts of thought, word and deed. Both kamma and vipaka are
essentially mental, but we also use the term 'action' to denote acts of
word or deed. There is an ascending order of importance: if I think "I want to

kill you", that is not as strong as saying "I want to kill you", which is
in turn is not as strong as actually carrying out the deed.

D: not so  sure about the importance .. what is worse: the planning or the
execution?
------------------------------------------
HCW:
     I would say the execution is. But the deed is  made a worse deed in its
being planned for.
---------------------------------------------

Exc."Every volitional action has consequences. It must  be emphasised that
we are talking here only of volitional actions - in  Buddhism intention is
of paramount
importance; purely mechanical actions,  like switching on a light, have no
kammic consequences. Involuntary,  unintentional or unconscious actions are
not kamma.
------------------------------------------------
HCW:
     Switching on a light is volitional. It IS kamma.  Even if not fully
conscious, it is based on a desire.
------------------------------------------------

D: I think not easy to separate ..not guarding the  mind  can have serious
effects
------------------------------------------------
HCW:
     Not guarding the mind gives desire full rein.
----------------------------------------------

Exc."The function of volition is to direct  the mind in the sphere of good,
bad or neutral activities. Volitional actions  are: will, determination,
desire, hate, ignorance, conceit, wisdom."

D:  source?
-----------------------------------------------
HCW:
     I don't view ignorance, conceit, and wisdom as  volitional actions.
------------------------------------------------

Exc. " An action started with good intention cannot  have unwholesome
effects, even if it misfires (helping an old lady across the  road, I trip and
push her into the ditch). A knife can be used to kill you or  by a surgeon to
remove your appendix. "

D:   good intention  to be  be seen within the framework of wholesome
action , the tenfold  kammapatha
------------------------------------------------
HCW:
     Wholesome actions may have unhappy consequences,  however. And
unwholesome actions may have happy consequences.
------------------------------------------------

Exc. "Vipaka is the effect. Sensations, perceptions are  vipaka. Whatever
you see, hear, smell, taste or experience through the sense  of touch is
vipaka.
This is a passive experience which we cannot control;  "
------------------------------------------------
HCW:
     The initial kamma is already the "control".
----------------------------------------------
D:  yes, as it is said (S.N. 35, 145)
'Monks, I will teach you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the
path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Listen and pay close
attention. I will speak."Now what, monks, is old kamma? The eye is to be seen
as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. The ear... The
nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is to be seen as old kamma,
fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. This is called old kamma  '

Exc."but we may judge it to be pleasant or unpleasant.  This judging is not
vipaka. It is reaction and this causes kamma. Seeing a  colour is vipaka,
liking it or disliking it is not. These are not results, but  causes - causes
which have kammic consequences"
-----------------------------------------------
HCW:
     Finding pleasant or unpleasant is just vedana, and  I believe that is
vipaka. However,  the reacting to that with liking  or disliking is new
kamma, I think.
-----------------------------------------------


D: yes  : 'And what is new kamma? Whatever  kamma one does now with the
body, with speech, or with the intellect: This is  called new kamma.'

Exc."This is the crucial moment when we can create  either wholesome or
unwholesome kamma. The liking or disliking which arises  after the moment of
cognition is no longer vipaka.
----------------------------------------------
HCW:
     Yes, I agree. (That new kamma is itself  conditioned, however.)
----------------------------------------------

We  should try to understand what is vipaka and what is no longer vipaka.  "
D: further I think we may see the difference between Sankhara  and Sankhara
Khanda in D.O.  And here the Abhidhammic  introduction  of the 52
concomitants (cetasika)  into D.O . refering mainly to the  latter is
interesting to
note.
Exc"but we may judge it to be  pleasant or unpleasant. This judging is not
vipaka. It is reaction and this  causes kamma. Seeing a colour is vipaka,
liking it or disliking it is
not.  These are not results, but causes - causes which have kammic
consequences.  "
D: yes , new kamma  ....some people seem to assume that  non-action is the
way out (of samsara/enlightenment)

neglecting  :

"And what is the cessation of kamma? Whoever touches the release that
comes from the cessation of bodily kamma, verbal kamma, & mental kamma:  This is
called the cessation of kamma."   "And what is the path of  practice
leading to the cessation of kamma? Just this noble eightfold path:  right view,
right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right  effort,
right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called the path of  practice
leading to the cessation of kamma."

of course (the path of )  practise means action .. the threefold training
of the  Noble Path .
any comment ?


with Metta  Dieter

=============================
With metta,
Howard


Seamless Interdependence

/A change in  anything is a change in  everything/

(Anonymous)



#116058 	From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" <bhikkhu3@...>
Date: Sat Jul 9, 2011 9:14 am
Subject: The Clothes... Dressing yourself in Mental Quality! 	bhikkhu5

Friends:
Sariputta explains the 7 Links to Awakening!

Venerable S�riputta
<http://what-buddha-said.net/library/DPPN/sa/saariputta.htm>  once said:
Friends!
Friend; the Bhikkhus replied. Venerable S�riputta
<http://what-buddha-said.net/library/DPPN/sa/saariputta.htm>  then explained
this:
Friends, there are these Seven Links to Awakening. What seven?
1: The Awareness <http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Awareness_Sati.htm>
Link to Awakening:
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Awareness_Sati.htm>
sati-sambojjhanga.
2: The Investigation
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Investigation_Vicaya.htm>  Link to
Awakening:  <http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Investigation_Vicaya.htm>
dhammavicaya-sambojjhanga.
3: The Energy <http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Energy_Viriya.htm>
Link to Awakening:
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Energy_Viriya.htm>
viriya-sambojjhanga.
4: The Joy <http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Joy_Piti.htm>  Link to
Awakening:  <http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Joy_Piti.htm>
p�ti-sambojjhanga.
5: The Tranquillity
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Tranquillity_Passaddhi.htm>  Link to
Awakening:
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Tranquillity_Passaddhi.htm>
passaddhi-sambojjhanga.
6: The Concentration
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Concentration_Samadhi.htm>  Link to
Awakening:
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Concentration_Samadhi.htm>
sam�dhi-sambojjhanga.
7: The Equanimity
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Equanimity_Upekkha.htm>  Link to
Awakening:  <http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Equanimity_Upekkha.htm>
upekkh�-sambojjhanga.
These are the Seven Links to Awakening!
In whichever of these 7 Links to Awakening, I wish to dwell in the morning,
in that I abide in the morning; in whichever I wish to dwell at noon, in
that
I abide at noon; in whichever I wish to dwell in the evening, in that I
abide
in the evening... Suppose a king or a minister had a cupboard full of
clothes
of many various colours, then whichever pair of clothes he wished to put on
in the morning, that he would put on in the morning; whichever clothes he
wished to put on at noon, that he would put on at noon; & whichever clothes
he wished to put on in the evening, that he would put on in the evening: so
too,
in whichever of these 7 Links to Awakening, I wish to abide in for whatever
period, in that indeed I easily abide dwelling fully absorbed by that
aspect...
If it occurs to me that now there is The Awareness
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Awareness_Sati.htm>  Link to
Awakening present
in me, then it occurs to me that it is measureless, & it occurs to me that
it is
well established; and while it is remaining I know that it remains; and if
it falls
away in me, then I know instantly that it faded away caused by this or that
specific condition or definable circumstance! So too with the other six
links
to awakening. I notice and know both their presence, ceasing and absence!

Venerable S�riputta
<http://what-buddha-said.net/library/DPPN/sa/saariputta.htm>  Thera

<....>
Source (edited extract):
The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nik�ya.
Book [V: 70-1] section 46: The Links.4: The Clothes...

Venerable S�riputta
<http://what-buddha-said.net/library/DPPN/sa/saariputta.htm>  Thera and
Venerable Mah�
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/maha/maha_moggallana_th.htm>
Moggall�na Thera
Have a nice & noble day!

Friendship is the Greatest!
  <http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Bhikkhu_Samahita> Bhikkhu
Sam�hita _/\_ *
<....>



#116059 	From: "jonoabb" <jonabbott@...>
Date: Sat Jul 9, 2011 5:35 pm
Subject: Re: Satipatthana Sutta - Reflection on corpses 	jonoabb

Hi Robert E

(115255)
--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" <epsteinrob@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Jon.
> ...
> > > [RE:] My reading of the suttas, again limited though it is, is that the
Buddha felt quite free to switch back and forth from the conventional to the
paramatha view and that he did so, by all appearances, purposely without
announcing that he was doing it.  ...  So I think they go together quite well,
if you don't insist on extracting the paramatha and discarding the rest.
> > > ===============
> >
> > J:  We would need to look at a specific example to take this discussion
further, since there are any number of suttas that mix conventional with
paramattha but do so for perhaps different reasons.
>
> [RE:] We could look back at the satipatthana sutta again and the body and
corpse contemplations.
>
> In the following section, Buddha seems to be explicitly recommending
contemplation of the parts and ingredients of the body in conventional terms,
and defines this as part of the proper contemplation of the body for the arising
of satipatthana:
> "Furthermore...just as if a sack with openings at both ends were full of
various kinds of grain � wheat, rice, mung beans, kidney beans, sesame seeds,
husked rice � and a man with good eyesight, pouring it out, were to reflect,
'This is wheat. This is rice. These are mung beans. These are kidney beans.
These are sesame seeds. This is husked rice,' in the same way, monks, a monk
reflects on this very body from the soles of the feet on up, from the crown of
the head on down, surrounded by skin and full of various kinds of unclean
things: 'In this body there are head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin,
flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen,
lungs, large intestines, small intestines, gorge, feces, bile, phlegm, pus,
blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, saliva, mucus, fluid in the joints, urine.'
>
> "In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or
focused externally... unsustained by anything in the world. This is how a monk
remains focused on the body in & of itself.
> ===============

J:  I think there are 2 things to consider here:  the description of reflection
on the repulsiveness of the body, and the simile of the sack full of various
kinds of grain.

Reflection on the repulsiveness of the body is one of the contemplations that
supports the development of samatha to a very high degree.  As you say, it
involves contemplation of the parts and ingredients of the body in conventional
terms.

The question, then, is whether the simile of the sack full of various kinds of
grain is referring to just the same contemplation in conventional terms, or to
something else.

You quoted this passage not so long ago.  As I mentioned then, the commentary
says the following:

"The following is the application of the simile: Like the bag with the two
openings is the body made up of the four great primaries, earth, water, fire and
air."

The four great primaries (earth, water, fire and air) are dhammas that are
rupas.

So according to the commentary, the passage is referring to the development of
awareness of dhammas: what we take for the body is, in terms of paramattha
dhammas, nothing more than the 4 primary rupas.

As regards the reference to contemplating the body in the body, the commentary
explains that 'in the body' means 'in the corporeal group' i.e., in rupa-khandha

So we come down again to a matter of interpretation, that is to say, whether the
Buddha is saying that this particular samatha contemplation is a condition for
the arising of insight into dhammas, or whether he's saying that for those who
have already developed and are skilled in this particular samatha contemplation
(and in the development of awareness as well) there can at the same time be the
development of insight with dhammas as object.

Jon
#116060 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Sat Jul 9, 2011 6:51 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] The Fourth Jhana: The Royal Road to Awakening 	nilovg

Hi Howard,
Op 8-jul-2011, om 15:02 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven:
>
> The seven factors of awakening are mindfulness, effort (or energy),
> rapture (or joy), calm (or peace), concentration (or mental
> unifaction),
> equanimity, and investigation of phenomena.
> The factors routinely cultivated during jhanas include all of these
> except the last, with mindfulness, energy, concentration, calm, and
> especially equanimity reaching their height in the fourth jhana.
>
------
N: I would not say during jhaana, because jhaanacitta experiences
only one of the meditation subjects of samatha. When one has emerged
from jhaana, then insight can be developed with jhaana as base or
proximate cause.
------
> H: Investigation of
> dhammas can also be developed, and optimally so, from the base of
> the fourth
> jhana, a pristine state of clarity. (This attainment isn't
> automatic in
> the fourth jhana, however, for intentional turning attention and
> effort
> towards that investigation is required.)
>
-------
N: Only after having emerged from jhaana.
------
> H: If attainment of this factor of
> investigation is accomplished, then all the factors of awakening
> are achieved via
> passage to the fourth jhana, and, thus, attainment and mastery of the
> fourth jhana is the royal road to awakening.
>
------
N: Via jhaana?
Take for example K.S. V, 66, Virtue. Here we read about insight: <
Thus he, dwelling mindful, with full recognition investigates and
applies insight to that teaching of the Norm (N: Dhamma) and comes to
close scrutiny of it...>
The commentary states that in this sutta the enlightenment factors
are to be understood as pertaining to insight in the preliminary
stage of the path of arahatship.They occur together in one mind-
moment, though with different characteristics.> (Ven. Bodhi, note 63,
p. 1901).
Insight is indispensable, no matter a person develops jhaana or not.
--------
> H: It is the base from which Gotama
> awakened and became the Buddha.
>
> If one can, in any lifetime, master the first four jhanas, it is a
> lifetime of ultimate worth. And effort spent leading in that
> direction is
> effort very well made.
>
-------
N: But can everybody achieve this? I see that you emphasize jhaana
very much, but what about right understanding that has to be developed?
------
Nina
>

#116061 	From: "jonoabb" <jonabbott@...>
Date: Sat Jul 9, 2011 7:38 pm
Subject: Re: Satipatthana Sutta - Reflection on corpses 	jonoabb

Hi Alex

(115256)
--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
wrote:
>
> Hello Jon, all,
>
> > J: I do not see the section on the 32 body parts in the >Satipatthana >Sutta
as instructions to be followed.
>
>
> [Alex:] It clearly says so as being an instruction to do. The commentary also
states it as such.
> ===============

J:  The passage in the Satipatthana Sutta we are discussing reads as follows:

"And further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu reflects on just this body hemmed by the
skin and full of manifold impurity from the soles up, and from the top of the
hair down, thinking thus: �"

No instruction there.  Rather, a description of a bhikkhu who is already in the
habit of reflecting on the repulsiveness of the body.

> ===============
>
>
> > I see this passage as satipatthana for those who are also >developing >(and
have already attained a high level of) samatha with >body parts >as object.
>
> [Alex:] And the only, the only, way that it will be developing is if one
actually does it.
>
> Also, the whole "this is just samatha" is not an excuse to avoid it. The
Buddha didn't teach something that wasn't useful for Liberation.
> The fact that this method is in satipatthana sutta, shows that it is part of
insight and should belong there. You can't really separate samatha from
vipassana, these are both side of the same "stick". Whenever you pick up the
stick both sides go up.
> ===============

J:  Well certainly whenever there is vipassana there is also samatha.  But
equally certainly, samatha can be developed without vipassana being developed.

BTW, I have never thought of samatha a something to be avoided (in fact, just
the opposite: it is kusala and as such is to be developed).  However, I disagree
with the idea that there can be no development of awareness unless a certain
level of samatha has first been attained (if that's what you are saying); this
is not something taught by the Buddha.

Jon



#116062 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Sat Jul 9, 2011 6:21 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] The Fourth Jhana: The Royal Road to Awakening 	upasaka_howard

Hi, Nina -

In a message dated 7/9/2011 4:51:16 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
vangorko@... writes:

Hi  Howard,
Op 8-jul-2011, om 15:02 heeft upasaka@... het volgende  geschreven:
>
> The seven factors of awakening are mindfulness,  effort (or energy),
> rapture (or joy), calm (or peace), concentration  (or mental
> unifaction),
> equanimity, and investigation  of phenomena.
> The factors routinely cultivated during jhanas include  all of these
> except the last, with mindfulness, energy, concentration,  calm, and
> especially equanimity reaching their height in the fourth  jhana.
>
------
N: I would not say during jhaana, because  jhaanacitta experiences
only one of the meditation subjects of  samatha. When one has emerged
from jhaana, then insight can be  developed with jhaana as base or
proximate cause.
------
>  H: Investigation of
> dhammas can also be developed, and optimally so,  from the base of
> the fourth
> jhana, a pristine state of  clarity. (This attainment isn't
> automatic in
> the fourth  jhana, however, for intentional turning attention and
>  effort
> towards that investigation is  required.)
>
-------
N: Only after having emerged from  jhaana.
---------------------------------------
HCW:
         Nina, according to the  Anupada Sutta (MN 111)), this is not so. In
that sutta, it is made clear that  first emerging is required only from
"the 9th jhana" (of cessation of  feeling and perception).
----------------------------------------------


------
> H: If attainment of this factor of
>  investigation is accomplished, then all the factors of awakening
> are achieved via
> passage to the fourth jhana, and, thus,  attainment and mastery of the
> fourth jhana is the royal road to  awakening.
>
------
N: Via jhaana?
Take for example K.S. V, 66,  Virtue. Here we read about insight: <
Thus he, dwelling mindful,  with full recognition investigates and
applies insight to that  teaching of the Norm (N: Dhamma) and comes to
close scrutiny of  it...>
The commentary states that in this sutta the enlightenment  factors
are to be understood as pertaining to insight in the  preliminary
stage of the path of arahatship.They occur together in  one mind-
moment, though with different characteristics.> (Ven. Bodhi,  note 63,
p. 1901).
Insight is indispensable, no matter a person  develops jhaana or not.
-------------------------------------------------
HCW:
     I didn't say that the 4th jhana is the ONLY road to  awakening.
------------------------------------------------


--------
> H: It is the base from which Gotama
>  awakened and became the Buddha.
>
> If one can, in any lifetime,  master the first four jhanas, it is a
> lifetime of ultimate worth. And  effort spent leading in that
> direction is
> effort very  well made.
>
-------
N: But can everybody achieve  this?
-----------------------------------------------
HCW:
     Eventually. (But certainly not without cultivating  it.)
-----------------------------------------------

I see  that you emphasize jhaana
very much, but what about right  understanding that has to be developed?
-------------------------------------------------
HCW:
     Liberating right understanding is, of course,  essential. The Buddha's
jhanas lead to it. They constitute right concentration.
     The jhanas discovered by the Buddha differed from  those of his
predecessors. After training in those and abandoning that approach,  the Buddha
recalled his meditation under the rose-apple tree, realizing that  this was the
way he needed to go. (Please see MN 36.)
--------------------------------------------------


------
Nina
>
===============================
With metta,
Howard

Right Meditation

/I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working,  and I
was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite secluded
from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities — I entered &
remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion,
accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to 
Awakening?'
Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the  path to
Awakening.'/

(From MN 36)

#116063 	From: Lukas <szmicio@...>
Date: Sat Jul 9, 2011 10:25 pm
Subject: Mental unpleasant feeling, grieving. 	szmicio

Dear friends,
Why is that there is so much mental unpleasant feeling, this can really struck
me, and I am wandering like hipnotize in grieve. What are the conditions for
less grieving, for less domanassa and stories with domanassa. After many years
of practice, this is still here, no more no less.
Best
Lukas

#116064 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Sat Jul 9, 2011 6:51 pm
Subject: Slight Correction Re: [dsg] The Fourth Jhana: The Royal Road to Awakening 	upasaka_howard

Hi again, Nina -

In a message dated 7/9/2011 8:21:23 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
Upasaka@... writes:

Nina,  according to the Anupada Sutta (MN 111)), this is not so. In that
sutta, it is  made clear that first emerging is required only from "the 9th
jhana" (of  cessation of feeling and perception).
=============================
     Emerging first is also required from the 8th jhana  (of neither
perception nor not perception). Emergence prior to  investigation of dhammas is
required from the 8th and 9th  (only). Compare for example what is said with
regard to the 7th jhana and  the 8th jhana as follows:
______________________________

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the
infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' Sariputta entered
& remained in the dimension of nothingness. Whatever qualities there are in
  the dimension of nothingness — the perception of the dimension of
nothingness,  singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention,
consciousness,  desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, &
attention —
he  ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to
him they  remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is
how these  qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they
vanish.' He  remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities,
independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of
barriers.  He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there
really  was for him.
"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of
nothingness,  Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of neither
perception nor
non-perception. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging
mindfully  from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased
&  changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into
play.  Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with
regard  to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with
an  awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,'
and  pursuing it there really was for him.
_________________________________
With metta,
Howard


Seamless Interdependence

/A change in  anything is a change in  everything/

(Anonymous)


#116065 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Sat Jul 9, 2011 11:26 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] The Fourth Jhana: The Royal Road to Awakening 	nilovg

Hi Howard,
Op 9-jul-2011, om 14:21 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven:
>
> HCW:
> Nina, according to the Anupada Sutta (MN 111)), this is not so. In
> that sutta, it is made clear that first emerging is required only from
> "the 9th jhana" (of cessation of feeling and perception).
> ----------------------------------------------
>
On Rob K's forum I found an old post by Sarah, under the title: no
sense objects during jhaana. For insight both naama and ruupa have to
be known as they are. This was an old conversation between Sarah and
you.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/99261


Back to the neglected #98417 on the Anupada Sutta:-)


  >>Sarah: (Formless-Sphere Moral Consciousness - 4)
  >
  > (1) Moral Jhaana consciousness dwelling on the "Infinity of Space",
  >
  > (2) Moral Jhaana consciousness dwelling on the "Infinity of
Consciousness",
  > [S: the object is the first aruupa jhaana citta]
  >
  > (3) Moral Jhaana consciousness dwelling on "Nothingness",
  >
  > (4) Moral Jhaana consciousness wherein "Perception neither is nor
is not".
  > [S: the object is the third arupa jhaana citta]
  >
  > These are the four types of aruupa-jhaana Moral consciousness."
  >
  > S: In other words, the objects of these (the highest jhaana cittas)
have
  > their own specific objects. There is no 'investigation of dhammas'
in them
  > and they are only 'portals' or 'bases' or proximate conditions for
path
  > consciousness if they are directly understood as impermanent,
conditioned
  > dhammas after they've fallen away. This is in just the same way
any other
naama
  > or ruupa can be the proximate condition or 'portal' for path
consciousness
  > if it is directly understood as an object of satipa.t.thaana just
prior to
  > enlightenment. Whether it be lobha, dosa, jhaana citta or visible
object -
  > any dhamma at any time can be the 'portal' for enlightenment if the
  > conditions are in place.

  > ================================
  >Howard: As one example, Sarah, in the Anupada Sutta, please compare
what
  > occurs within the 7th jhana with what occurs within the 8th:
  >
  > __________________
  > 16] "And the states in the base of "Nothingness" - the perception
of the
  > base of "Nothingness" and the unification of mind; the contact,
feeling,
  > perception, volition and consciousness, the enthusiasm, decision,
energy,
  > mindfulness, equanimity, and attention - these states were defined
by him one
  > by one as they occurred; know to him those states arose, known
they were
  > present, known they disappeared. He understood thus: "So indeed,
these states
  > not having been, come into to being; having been, they vanish."
Regarding
  > these states he abided un-attracted, un-repelled, independent,
detached,
  > free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers. He understood:
"�There is an
  > escape beyond this", and with the cultivation of that attainment, he
  > confirmed that there is.
.....
S: These are the factors accompanying the 7th jhana which has
voidness as its
object. The reviewing consciousness cittas which immediately succeed
the jhana
cittas 'review' and know the cittas, their object and the mental states
accompanying them, just as the reviewing consciousness cittas
immediately
succeeding the lokuttara cittas (in the processes of enlightenment)
experience
those cittas, cetasikas and object (nibbana).

  From the Guide in CMA, ch 1
"The base of nothingness (aaki~nca~n~naayatana): the third immaterial
attainment
has as its object the present non-existence, voidness, or secluded
aspect of the
consciousness pertaining to the base of infinite space. By giving
attention to
the absence of that consciousness, the third immaterial absorption
arises taking
as its object the concept of non-existence or nothingness
(nattthibhaava-pa~n~natti) in respect the the first immaterial
consciousness."

S: There is no other object of this jhana citta itself. The cetasikas
(mental
factors) listed in the sutta are factors accompanying the citta.

In the Bodhi/Nanamoli notes to this sutta, it explains under the
first jhana:
"The first five states in the list are the jhaana factors proper of
the first
jhaana; the following states are additional components each
performing their
individual functions within the jhaana. This minute analysis of
mental states
into their components anticipates the methodology of the Abhidhamma,
and it is
thus no coincidence that the name of Saariputta is so closely linked
with the
emergence of the Abhidhamma literature."

S: As Connie has pointed out, each jhana citta is accompanied by many
mental
factors, including all those which arise with every kind of sobhana
(beautiful)consciousness. It is the jhana factors (jhaananga)(such as
the five
in the case of the first jhana) that distinguish one jhana from the
next in
terms of increasing refinement of the absorption as the grosser jhana
factors
are eliminated.
....
  > Howard: 17] "Again, bhikkhus, by completely surmounting the base of
"�Nothingness"
  > Sariputta entered upon and abided in the base of neither
perception nor
  > non-perception.
  > 18] "He emerged mindful from that attainment. Having done so, he
  > contemplated the states that had passed, ceased and changed, thus:
"�So
indeed, these
  > states, not having been, come into being; having been they vanished.
  > Regarding those states, he abided un-attracted, un-repelled,
independent,
  > detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers. He
understood:
"There is
  > an escape beyond this," and with the cultivation of that
attainment, he
  > confirmed that there is.
  > -----------------------------------
  > Within the 7th, Sariputta was able to define various features "one
by one
  > AS THEY OCCURRED [emphasis mine];
....
S: A note in the Bodhi/Nanamoli translation explains this difference
in wording
when it comes to the 8th jhana:

"This indirect introspective method must be used to contemplate the
fourth
immaterial attainment because this attainment, being extremely
subtle, does not
enter into the direct range of investigation for disciples. Only fully
enlightened Buddhas are able to contemplate it directly."

S: This is interesting as it seems to even include Sariputta. In the
case of the
other jhana cittas and factors, they can be known 'as present
objects' by the
immediately succeeding cittas (for these disciples), just as seeing
or visible
object can be known 'as present objects' by succeeding mind-door
cittas in the
development of satipatthana.
-------
Nina.
>

#116066 	From: "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Sat Jul 9, 2011 11:55 pm
Subject: How does the habit start? 	truth_aerator
Online Now Send IM
Send Email Send Email
  	

Hello Jon, all
>J:No instruction there.  Rather, a description of a bhikkhu who is >already in
the habit of reflecting on the repulsiveness of the body.
>=================================================================

And how did the habit "of reflecting on the repulsiveness of the body" start in
the first place?

With metta,

Alex



#116067 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:22 am
Subject: Re: Direct Textual Evidence (Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing) 	nilovg

Dear Rob E,
Op 8-jul-2011, om 9:39 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven:

>  meditation, volition, right effort or other things to be focused
> > > on, intended, willed or done in order to develop the path, it is
> > > doubtful that those passages will ever be interpreted
> correctly, or
> > > taken at face value for what they actually say.
> > ------
> > N: It is not a matter of dismissing, but take volition and right
> > effort in the right way: they are cetasikas, non-self. This should
> > not be forgotten, but we do forget all the time.
> > Is it not "I" who is reading and discussing at this moment now?
>
> Action such as right effort can exist without "self" or "I" doing
> anything. The illusion is that of "self." That does not mean that
> action or effort are illusions.
------
N: You are right. Right effort in itself is not dismissed at all. It
accompanies right understanding and supports it. A lot of viriya is
needed so that one is not discouraged to devlop understanding of all
realities, from day to day.
----
Nina.


#116068 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Sat Jul 9, 2011 9:31 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] The Fourth Jhana: The Royal Road to Awakening 	upasaka_howard

Hi, Nina -

In a message dated 7/9/2011 9:26:15 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
vangorko@... writes:

Hi  Howard,
Op 9-jul-2011, om 14:21 heeft upasaka@... het volgende  geschreven:
>
> HCW:
> Nina, according to the Anupada Sutta  (MN 111)), this is not so. In
> that sutta, it is made clear that first  emerging is required only from
> "the 9th jhana" (of cessation of  feeling and perception).
>  ----------------------------------------------
>
On Rob K's forum I  found an old post by Sarah, under the title: no
sense objects during  jhaana. For insight both naama and ruupa have to
be known as they  are. This was an old conversation between Sarah and
you.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/99261
-----------------------------------------------------
HCW:
     There are mind-door objects in jhana. And the  Anupada sutta is
unambiguous with regard to that. For example, as regards the  4th jhana:
<Whatever
qualities there are in the fourth jhana — a feeling of  equanimity, neither
pleasure nor pain; an unconcern due to serenity of  awareness; singleness of
mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention,  consciousness, desire,
decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, &  attention — he ferreted
them
out one after another. Known to him they arose,  known to him they remained,
known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this  is how these qualities,
not having been, come into play. Having been, they  vanish.' >
------------------------------------------------------

Back to the neglected #98417 on the Anupada  Sutta:-)


>>Sarah: (Formless-Sphere Moral Consciousness -  4)
>
> (1) Moral Jhaana consciousness dwelling on the "Infinity of  Space",
>
> (2) Moral Jhaana consciousness dwelling on the  "Infinity of
Consciousness",
> [S: the object is the first  aruupa jhaana citta]
>
> (3) Moral Jhaana consciousness dwelling  on "Nothingness",
>
> (4) Moral Jhaana consciousness wherein  "Perception neither is nor
is not".
> [S: the object is the  third arupa jhaana citta]
>
> These are the four types of  aruupa-jhaana Moral consciousness."
>
> S: In other words, the  objects of these (the highest jhaana cittas)
have
> their own  specific objects. There is no 'investigation of dhammas'
in  them
> and they are only 'portals' or 'bases' or proximate conditions  for
path
> consciousness if they are directly understood as  impermanent,
conditioned
> dhammas after they've fallen away.  This is in just the same way
any other
naama
> or ruupa can  be the proximate condition or 'portal' for path
consciousness
> if it is directly understood as an object of  satipa.t.thaana just
prior to
> enlightenment. Whether it be  lobha, dosa, jhaana citta or visible
object -
> any dhamma at  any time can be the 'portal' for enlightenment if the
> conditions are  in place.

> ================================
>Howard: As one  example, Sarah, in the Anupada Sutta, please compare
what
>  occurs within the 7th jhana with what occurs within the 8th:
>
>  __________________
> 16] "And the states in the base of "Nothingness" -  the perception
of the
> base of "Nothingness" and the  unification of mind; the contact,
feeling,
> perception,  volition and consciousness, the enthusiasm, decision,
energy,
> mindfulness, equanimity, and attention - these states were  defined
by him one
> by one as they occurred; know to him  those states arose, known
they were
> present, known they  disappeared. He understood thus: "So indeed,
these states
>  not having been, come into to being; having been, they vanish."
Regarding
> these states he abided un-attracted, un-repelled,  independent,
detached,
> free, dissociated, with a mind rid of  barriers. He understood:
"˜There is an
> escape beyond this",  and with the cultivation of that attainment, he
> confirmed that there  is.
.....
S: These are the factors accompanying the 7th jhana which  has
voidness as its
object. The reviewing consciousness cittas  which immediately succeed
the jhana
cittas 'review' and know the  cittas, their object and the mental states
accompanying them, just as the  reviewing consciousness cittas
immediately
succeeding the  lokuttara cittas (in the processes of enlightenment)
experience
those  cittas, cetasikas and object (nibbana).
------------------------------------------------
HCW:
     The distinction between the 7th and 8th jhanas as  regards the need for
emerging is crystal clear. With regard to the 8th jhana,  there is emerging
upon which there is a review of the prior qualities. But in  the 7th jhana,
*without* emerging,  there is a DIRECT FERRETING OF THEM  OUT, ONE BY ONE
AS THEY OCCUR. It says <... these states  were defined by him one by one as
they occurred; know to him those states  arose, known they were present,
known they disappeared.> Please  read the sutta itself. It is very clear.
------------------------------------------------
From the Guide in CMA, ch 1
"The base of nothingness  (aaki~nca~n~naayatana): the third immaterial
attainment
has as  its object the present non-existence, voidness, or secluded
aspect  of the
consciousness pertaining to the base of infinite space. By  giving
attention to
the absence of that consciousness, the third  immaterial absorption
arises taking
as its object the concept of  non-existence or nothingness
(nattthibhaava-pa~n~natti) in respect the the  first immaterial
consciousness."

S: There is no other object  of this jhana citta itself. The cetasikas
(mental
factors) listed  in the sutta are factors accompanying the citta.
-------------------------------------------------------
HCW:
     I go by what the sutta says, Nina.
--------------------------------------------------
In the Bodhi/Nanamoli notes to this sutta, it explains  under the
first jhana:
"The first five states in the list are the  jhaana factors proper of
the first
jhaana; the following states  are additional components each
performing their
individual  functions within the jhaana. This minute analysis of
mental  states
into their components anticipates the methodology of the  Abhidhamma,
and it is
thus no coincidence that the name of  Saariputta is so closely linked
with the
emergence of the  Abhidhamma literature."

S: As Connie has pointed out, each jhana citta  is accompanied by many
mental
factors, including all those which  arise with every kind of sobhana
(beautiful)consciousness. It is the jhana  factors (jhaananga)(such as
the five
in the case of the first  jhana) that distinguish one jhana from the
next in
terms of  increasing refinement of the absorption as the grosser jhana
factors
are eliminated.
....
> Howard: 17] "Again, bhikkhus,  by completely surmounting the base of
"˜Nothingness"
> Sariputta  entered upon and abided in the base of neither
perception  nor
> non-perception.
> 18] "He emerged mindful from that  attainment. Having done so, he
> contemplated the states that had  passed, ceased and changed, thus:
"˜So
indeed, these
>  states, not having been, come into being; having been they vanished.
>  Regarding those states, he abided un-attracted, un-repelled,
independent,
> detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of  barriers. He
understood:
"There is
> an escape beyond  this," and with the cultivation of that
attainment, he
>  confirmed that there is.
> -----------------------------------
>  Within the 7th, Sariputta was able to define various features "one
by one
> AS THEY OCCURRED [emphasis mine];
....
S: A note in  the Bodhi/Nanamoli translation explains this difference
in  wording
when it comes to the 8th jhana:

"This indirect introspective  method must be used to contemplate the
fourth
immaterial  attainment because this attainment, being extremely
subtle, does  not
enter into the direct range of investigation for disciples. Only  fully
enlightened Buddhas are able to contemplate it directly."

S:  This is interesting as it seems to even include Sariputta. In the
case of the
other jhana cittas and factors, they can be known 'as  present
objects' by the
immediately succeeding cittas (for these  disciples), just as seeing
or visible
object can be known 'as  present objects' by succeeding mind-door
cittas in  the
development of  satipatthana.
-------
Nina.
>
===================================
     Nina, the sutta is perfectly clear, and the  contortions that folks go
to try to change the meaning only displays to me  how tightly people cling
to their personal beliefs. There are suttas that  require elucidation. This
is not one of them.

With metta,
Howard

P. S. Also, Nina, you say nothing with regard to  how the Buddha returned
to his childhood rose-apple tree meditation AFTER having  found all the
"jhanas" of his Hindu teachers to be to no avail. This  shows that the Buddha's
jhanas and those of his teachers were quite  different.

Right Meditation

/I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working,  and I
was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite secluded
from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities — I entered &
remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion,
accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to 
Awakening?'
Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the  path to
Awakening.'/

(From MN 36)


#116069 	From: "UziYaH" <uziyah@...>
Date: Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:36 am
Subject: Asked to share, .... 	uziyah

Relative to a post I sent Sarah privately, she responded with, in part, "I do
hope you'll also consider sharing some/all of the content below on the list as
others will be most interested to read it too."

I feel so honored to be asked. In part:

Namaste' Sister Sarah now living Down Under,

Thank you for your insights and questions, and your warm welcome to DSG. It's
good to know there are others much older than I on the forum as I sincerely
appreciate the wisdom of elders. While I don't think my age of seventy-four is
all that old, it feels old to me, as my heart has been severely damaged from a
virus and I now sleep with a breathing machine and have a Pacemaker in my chest
to keep my heart beating. I do feel old most of the time, but perhaps not very
wise.

I was born with the name of Howard Kenneth, direct descendant to two of our
nations founding fathers of William Bradford and the House of Standish which
dates back to 1,000 AD in the United Kingdom. Perhaps we are related.

You asked, "what you've been reading on Buddhism, what has particularly inspired
you and what brought you here?"

At this time, I AM greatly enjoying studying on
http://buddhanet.net/e-learning/index.htm and have downloaded same. Since my
post to you, I have been able to download, print and am now in the process of
binding, "The Word of Buddha" translated by Nyantiloka. I just love having this
in my library.

I have also enjoyed Eckhart Tolle's two great books, "The Power of Now" and "The
New Earth", not realizing they where the essence of Buddhism. Perhaps I was
first inspired by the chaos and pain I experienced, in my young life, when I
made a vow to find God. I was ten at the time. Much Later in life, I 'realized'
that of which I was seeking was within, ...even as Master Teacher Jesus and
Master Gautama stated.

My heart attack and stroke of eight years ago, seems to open doors of
understanding that resonated best with what little I know of Master Gautama and
those who follow his understanding. Also, my Cayce Past Life Report suggests my
main goal, in this life, would be to collate Eastern thought with that of
Western philosophy. This quest is my joy today. Also, a few years ago, a Reiki
Master 'found me' and I was able to study Reiki precepts and acquire my Reiki
Master's certificate, thereby learning to meditate, again opening doors to
further enlightenment and the path to Zen Buddhism understanding and
enlightenment.

You asked, "I also wonder where you live, presumably in the States?"

My wife and I love living our retired life in a monastic setting on Middle Creek
in the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains near the border of North Carolina
in Tennessee. We were transferred to Knoxville, Tennessee from Honolulu, Hawaii,
by Encyclopedia Britannica with whom I worked as a field representative for a
few years. Later, we purchased an eighteen wheeler truck and enjoyed becoming
monetarily compensated tourists, which my wife and I greatly enjoyed, until I
could no longer do this work.

While our home is small, 700 sq. ft., we enjoy our 5.5 acres of meadows and
woods and our little stream, and are often reminded of the words of King David
who said, "He has given me streams and meadows for my pleasure". We also have a
nice motor home should we desire to escape to the 'outside world'. I am on
Facebook and would love to meet you, and others on the forum and share pictures
of our little paradise.

My 'death experience' was a great turning point in my life, which begs a
question from you. When my stroke altered my thought process by damaging the
left hemisphere of my brain, I began to read books on the subject to better
understand why I was having more 'female' intuitive thoughts rather than my more
normal male left brain, linear logic. In doing so, it became evident to me that
I had lived many past lives, many as a scholar and teacher, mainly relevant to
Hebrew schools of thought. My Cayce Past Life Report suggests these
possibilities as well. How does this compare with the thoughts of Master Gautama
and that of Buddhaism?

Also, if you don't mind sharing, having a rather gifted IQ in science, I am
rather concerned that Buddhaism is reluctant to consider the origins of
'Source', while I love to dwell on the Cosmic plenum or vacuum from which all
things were created. Scientists identify this as 'dark energy' and 'dark matter'
that does not exist in the duality of physical realms, but has an influence on
that which does. I tend to understand this in the Kabbalistic understanding of
the Hebrew name of Melchizedek, or, reading from right to left, 'zedek', meaning
wisdom, 'chi' as in energy as in Reiki, and 'mel', as in the understanding of
'dark nothingness' or 'the wisdom of the energy of plenum'. I covet your thought
on this as well.

Dear sister, please forgive me for attempting to write a book, but I love to
share with those able to receive, ...without prejudice. I anxiously await your
insights and wisdom.

Most Respectfully, and in the Love and Light of One, .... howard AKA UziYaH,
meaning, "God is my strength" in Hebrew.



#116070 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Sat Jul 9, 2011 9:45 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Asked to share, .... 	upasaka_howard

Hi, Howard -

In a message dated 7/9/2011 11:36:20 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
uziyah@... writes:

Also, if  you don't mind sharing, having a rather gifted IQ in science, I
am rather  concerned that Buddhaism is reluctant to consider the origins of
'Source',  while I love to dwell on the Cosmic plenum or vacuum from which
all things  were created. Scientists identify this as 'dark energy' and 'dark
matter' that  does not exist in the duality of physical realms, but has an
influence on that  which does. I tend to understand this in the Kabbalistic
understanding of the  Hebrew name of Melchizedek, or, reading from right to
left, 'zedek', meaning  wisdom, 'chi' as in energy as in Reiki, and 'mel', as
in the understanding of  'dark nothingness' or 'the wisdom of the energy of
plenum'. I covet your  thought on this as well.
=================================
     'Tzedek' means "righteous being" or "saint".  It does not meaning
"wisdom". the Hebrew for 'wisdom' is either 'chochma' or  'binah'.

With metta,
Howard (HCW)


Seamless Interdependence

/A change in  anything is a change in  everything/

(Anonymous)


#116071 	From: Howard Nylander <uziyah@...>
Date: Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:58 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Asked to share, .... 	uziyah

And one can be a 'righteous being' or 'saint' without wisdom?

Namaste', .... howard



#116072 	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
Date: Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:27 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Asked to share, .... 	moellerdieter

Namaste  Howard ,

thanks for sharing , one of the nicest introductions I have read since long.

Noting ' ...When my stroke altered my thought process by damaging the left
hemisphere of my brain, I began ..'  I recalled a very interesting  video :

http://www.ted.com/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight.html

  which - in case you haven't seen it by now- I highly recommend to watch

with Metta Dieter

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: UziYaH
   To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 5:36 PM
   Subject: [dsg] Asked to share, ....
   Relative to a post I sent Sarah privately, she responded with, in part, "I do
hope you'll also consider sharing some/all of the content below on the list as
others will be most interested to read it too."

   I feel so honored to be asked. In part:

   Namaste' Sister Sarah now living Down Under,  .... snip

#116073 	From: Howard Nylander <uziyah@...>
Date: Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:24 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Asked to share, .... 	uziyah

Namaste' Brother Dieter,

Thank you for your kind words. I have Dr. Taylor's book, "My Stroke of Insight',
which did give me great insight into what happened to my brain during my 'death
experience'. I also enjoyed "The Fabric of Mind', by Dr. Richard Bergland,� who
speaks of how� the other� hemisphere of our brain takes over for that part which
is compromised. In my case, my right hemisphere, which I identify� as my 'Eve',
female intuitive mindset, became� more active to compensate for� the damage
to� my
left hemispere,� 'Adam', male mindset of linear, black and white empirical
thought.� 

After eight years of healing, I'm now finding only deep meditation allows me to
go to that sacred place of 'non-thought', that quiet place where I can listen to
the divine within me, a concept I am also finding in my studies of
Buddhism.� Thank you for your kind sharing.

Shared in Loving Kindness and Compassion, .... howard


� � � 

________________________________
From: Dieter Moeller <moellerdieter@...>
To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, July 9, 2011 1:27:29 PM
Subject: Re: [dsg] Asked to share, ....

� 
Namaste Howard ,

thanks for sharing , one of the nicest introductions I have read since long.

Noting ' ...When my stroke altered my thought process by damaging the left
hemisphere of my brain, I began ..' I recalled a very interesting video :

http://www.ted.com/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight.html

which - in case you haven't seen it by now- I highly recommend to watch

with Metta Dieter

----- Original Message -----
From: UziYaH
To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 5:36 PM
Subject: [dsg] Asked to share, ....

Relative to a post I sent Sarah privately, she responded with, in part, "I do
hope you'll also consider sharing some/all of the content below on the list as
others will be most interested to read it too."

I feel so honored to be asked. In part:

Namaste' Sister Sarah now living Down Under, .... snip



#116074 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:49 am
Subject: Slight Correction Re: [dsg] Asked to share, .... 	upasaka_howard

Hi again, Howard -

In a message dated 7/9/2011 11:46:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
upasaka@... writes:

Hi,  Howard -

In a message dated 7/9/2011 11:36:20 A.M. Eastern Daylight  Time,
uziyah@... writes:

Also, if  you don't mind  sharing, having a rather gifted IQ in science, I
am rather  concerned  that Buddhaism is reluctant to consider the origins
of
'Source',   while I love to dwell on the Cosmic plenum or vacuum from which
all  things  were created. Scientists identify this as 'dark energy' and
'dark
matter' that  does not exist in the duality of physical realms, but  has an
influence on that  which does. I tend to understand this in  the
Kabbalistic
understanding of the  Hebrew name of Melchizedek, or,  reading from right
to
left, 'zedek', meaning  wisdom, 'chi' as in  energy as in Reiki, and 'mel',
as
in the understanding of  'dark  nothingness' or 'the wisdom of the energy
of
plenum'. I covet your   thought on this as well.
=================================
'Tzedek' means "righteous being" or "saint".  It does not meaning
"wisdom". the Hebrew for 'wisdom' is either 'chochma' or   'binah'.

With metta,
Howard (HCW)
=================================
     It is 'tzadik' that means "righteous  being" or "saint".
     'Tzedek' means "righteousness" or "justice".  (So does 'tzedaka' mean
"justice," though it is usually translated as  'charity'.)

With metta,
Howard (HCW)


Seamless Interdependence

/A change in  anything is a change in  everything/

(Anonymous)

#116075 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:50 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Asked to share, .... 	upasaka_howard

Hi, Howard -

In a message dated 7/9/2011 11:58:21 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
uziyah@... writes:

And one  can be a 'righteous being' or 'saint' without wisdom?
----------------------------------------
HCW:
     No.
----------------------------------------
Namaste', .... howard
===========================
With metta,
Howard


Seamless Interdependence

/A change in  anything is a change in  everything/

(Anonymous)


#116076 	From: Howard Nylander <uziyah@...>
Date: Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:26 am
Subject: Re: Slight Correction Re: [dsg] Asked to share, .... 	uziyah

Namaste' Howard W.,

Thanks for sharing, although I am not one to equivocate over semantics, but
would rather address the 'spirit' of a word/name rather than the 'letter of the
law'.


Shortly after my heart attack and stroke, while living 'in spirit' between the
physical realm of duality and the realm of souls, it was given me to know that
before there was a beginning, that which was not (Cosmic plenum) thought, and
the energy of this manifestation of thought created all physical phenomenon.  I
tend to see this in the Hebrew mystical understanding of the name/reputation of
Melchizedek. I also witness this in the thoughts of an ancient master who said,
"He who understands cycles and vibrations understand all.


That others may not see this as I do, is OK with me as I try to find no ego to
defend. Take of my thoughts the resonate well within you and simply discard the
rest, ...or we can continue to share in the great Cosmic equilibrium of love,
the absences of ego. 

For those who might be interested in my insights, might I suggest, "Science and
the Akashic Field", 'An Integral Theory of Everything', by Dr. Ervin Laszlo.


While I don't know how these thoughts might fit into the thoughts of Master
Gautama and Buddhism, at this time, I intend to find out. Meanwhile, my desire
is to dwell, as much as possible, in that place that transcends thought, the
quantum vacuum from which all thought and physical manifestations are created.
Perhaps this can be identifies as the very 'Mind of God' which dwells within, as
suggested by Masters Jesus and Gautama.


In the Metta of Loving Kindness and Compassion, .... howard

#116077 	From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" <bhikkhu3@...>
Date: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:40 am
Subject: Rise and Fall... 	bhikkhu5

Friends:
Open Dwelling Teaches Transience!


The Blessed One often praised Tree Roots as a dwelling place:
Secluded in mind and guarded well by deities one lives there
truly devoted without longing or urging for any city or house...
And when the tender leaves are seen, first bright carmine red,
then turning green, and finally to shades of yellow as they fall,
one relinquishes mistaken belief in permanence once and for all!
Tree roots is thus granted by him the One as a serene scene no
wise and clever one should reject at all, for study of rise fall!
Vism I 74, Vin I 58, 96

<...>
Have a nice & noble day!

Friendship is the Greatest!
  <http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Bhikkhu_Samahita> Bhikkhu
Sam�hita _/\_ *
<....>



#116078 	From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott <dsgmods@...>
Date: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:20 am
Subject: fw yahoo message about a glitch last week 	dsgmods

Dear Friends,

f/w message from yahoo:

>As all too many of you experienced this week, a misconfiguration in one of our
sets of MTA servers caused many messages this week to be delayed or to fail to
post altogether.

  The good news is that the problem should have been resolved this morning, July
8th, around 2 am Pacific Daylight time (9 am GMT).

  But if you are still seeing problems with messages posted after that, you can
report the issue here:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/contact/ygpostform1.htm\
l

  Meanwhile, if messages posted before then still have not been delivered, you
should assume that the message will not be delivered and repost.

  Our apologies for the problems and inconvenience.

  - Y! Groups Team <



#116079 	From: "azita" <gazita2002@...>
Date: Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:31 am
Subject: Re: Mental unpleasant feeling, grieving. 	gazita2002

hallo Lucas,

> Dear friends,
> Why is that there is so much mental unpleasant feeling, this can really struck
me, and I am wandering like hipnotize in grieve. What are the conditions for
less grieving, for less domanassa and stories with domanassa. After many years
of practice, this is still here, no more no less.
> Best
> Lukas

azita: mental unpleasant feeling sucks doesnt it!! I mean that seriously, as I
seem to experience a lot of the same! However, thro my dhamma studies I think
that some people are happy types and some unhappy. This is probably a total
oversimplification of 'types of beings' but due to accummulations of certain
ways of being, I believe it to be true.
    Now that doesnt solve the problem of being unhappy eh? Here comes the hard
bit as I see it. Studying the dhamma has helped me see that life in general is
unsatisfactory due to the fact that we dont have much control over what happens.
We can 'rage against the machine' but it dont help. The 'machine' - the endless
arising and falling of dhammas/phenonmena - is totally behind control.

    The 'me/we' in all this is illusory. Me/we dont exist - what does exist are
arising and falling of dhammas eg hearing, what is heard, the base for the
hearing to arise, arising and falling away sooooo quickly, followed jst as
quickly by liking and in our case :) disliking, or by wisdom which sees
phenomena for what it is.
    Realisation of the truth is a very difficult 'path' and I believe its got to
start with understanding that impermanance and uncontrollability are real and
once this becomes part of daily acceptance then there jst may be less clinging
to have things go differently to the way they actually are.

    Back to unpleasant mental feeling - its real, its unpleasant, it passes away,
can be followed by more, but what to do?? See it for what it is and accept
unpleasnat mental feeling is not me, is not mine, is not my self. Less wanting
it to be other than what it is can be liberating........

patience, courage and good cheer
azita



#116080 	From: "ptaus1" <ptaus1@...>
Date: Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:37 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: What Kamma? 	ptaus1

Hi Sarah,

Thanks for your reply.

> S: The patisandhi (birth) citta and cuti (death) citta have the same object in
a given life-time. This is exactly the same object as all the bhavanga
(life-continuum) cittas in between. In fact, they are all the same kind of
bhavanga cittas, but the first and last ones have these particular names to
differentiate them.
>
> What it means is that as soon as the patisandhi citta has arisen, it is
certain that there will be a cuti citta later - whether one moment, a hundred
years or a very long time later in the case of devas. In the case of arahants,
there is no more birth and therefore, no more death. Again, this is all by
kamma.


pt: Thanks, I think I misunderstood how the whole process works for death and
relinking - I need to review ACMA chpt III about it, and will then come back
with more questions.


> S: p.s I know you're very busy with your jobs, but let us know if you'd like
to come over some time!

pt: Yes, thanks very much for the invitation, I have a lot of questions. I need
to sort out my schedule for the next few weeks and will then let you know
offlist about suitable times.

Best wishes
pt



#116081 	From: "ptaus1" <ptaus1@...>
Date: Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:10 pm
Subject: Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can le 	ptaus1

Hi KenH (and Alex),

> KH: I am sure you are right but, as usual, I am not sure why you choose to put
it the way you do. The Dhamma is the Dhamma whether it is understood or not
(whether there is insight or not). Regardless of insight there is always only
nama and rupa � never any people, trees or cars.

pt: I like putting it in terms of insight for diplomatic purposes:

1. most of us have little or no experience of the ultimate world, but we do have
a lot of experience with the conceptual world and hold dear to it. So dismissing
the conceptual outright tends to be too confrontational and thus the reaction is
often outright dismissal of the ultimate, which defeats the purpose of your (imo
usually excellent) posts. However, mentioning the insight first in experiential
terms can be a sort of a bridge towards the ultimate. Experientially that's how
it happens anyways - first one is lost in the sea of concepts, then starts to
consider things conceptually in the right way, then there are a few direct
experiences of the ultimate through insight, and finally, once an arahat -
there's life in the ultimate world as you describe it.

2. if your statements are not put into the context of insight (so direct
experience), they are then usually taken as statements of views (ditthi), which
then triggers the whole argument about onthology etc, which of course is not
what you are trying to say at all.


> KH: Could we say, "When we are talking about the Dhamma (the way things are in
ultimate reality) we say that dhammas are anatta, we don't say that concepts are
anatta (or that concepts are anything)"?

pt: Yes, though I seem to recall a thread where KS said that concepts too are
anatta? Either way, for purposes of diplomacy, I find it useful to say that it
is thinking that is, in fact, anatta. In that way people don't feel as offended
as when their thoughts (concepts) are dismissed outright, but are encouraged to
consider that thinking is anatta, regardless of what concepts are the object of
thinking at the time.


> > pt: Then, in the next split second, a few mind-door processes later, once an
instance of insight has fallen away, consciousness may take a conceptualisation
of a tree as object. And this is where we leave the world of insight and enter
the world of common sense, science, etc.
> --------------------------
>
> KH: OK but, strictly speaking, there are only the six worlds described in the
suttas - inhabited solely by namas and rupas. There is no seventh world
inhabited by people etc.

pt: No, but thinking does happen, so both insight and thinking do occur
ultimately. I feel it is this fact that could bridge the gap in your argument
with Alex - i.e. both insight (about visual objects in our example) and thinking
(about cars and trees) do occur in different mind-door processes, and so they
are not the opposites. In other words, the ultimate and the conceptual simply
have different functions and experientially occur at different instances. So
neither of you is  wrong I feel.

Best wishes
pt



#116082 	From: "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:48 pm
Subject: Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can le 	truth_aerator
Online Now Send IM
Send Email Send Email
  	

Hello Pt, all,

I need clarification.

Do you believe that concepts cannot be object of the mind?

Is base of infinite space conceptual?
Can it be an object of the mind?
Is it kusala or akusala?

Is base of nothingness conceptual?
Can it be object of the mind?
Is it kusala or akusala?


IMHO, what is important is how concepts are used. Are they used to develop
wisdom or ignorance? Are concepts used for wholesome or unwholesome purposes?
Interesting quote:
"Then again, a monk �" with the complete transcending of perceptions of
[physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not
heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space' �" enters &
remains in the dimension of the infinitude of space. He reflects on this and
discerns, 'This attainment of the infinitude of space is fabricated & intended.
Now whatever is fabricated & intended is inconstant & subject to cessation.'
Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if
not, then �" through this very Dhamma-passion, this Dhamma-delight, and from
the total wasting away of the first five Fetters �" he is due to be reborn [in
the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that
world.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.052.than.html
[same with dimension of nothingness]

These conceptual things can be used for insight. Not to mention really relevant
conceptual things like literal birth, aging, sickness, death, etc.
With metta,

Alex



#116083 	From: "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:57 pm
Subject: Re: how to get into a kusala habit in the first place? 	truth_aerator
Online Now Send IM
Send Email Send Email
  	

Hello Pt, all,

Regarding practice. It seems to me that there is a view that one should not do
anything unnatural to gain insight, etc etc.

What about all the instructions found in suttas such as satipatthana where
Buddha tells to go to a secluded place and do this or that (ex: anapanasati, 32
body part contemplation, etc)?

Some say that these are merely descriptions of natural habit of that person.


Here is the question: And how did the habit start in the first place? It
obviously wasn't beginnings, and there was a time when it wasn't yet a habit. So
it seems to me that if one doesn't start developing a habit, there will never be
that habit. So development is required.

Same thing with accumulation of kusala. It will be accumulated only if kusala
states occur. In order to get into kusala habit, one needs to start from no
habit and develop it until it becomes a habit (which perhaps becomes effortless
at some stage when the momentum is made) ...
With best wishes,

Alex



#116084 	From: "Robert E" <epsteinrob@...>
Date: Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:14 pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: dormant conditions, was:wisdom and doing 	epsteinrob

Hi Nina.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

> > R: I guess in a way it is like asking how any characteristic can be
> > passed along by the briefly arising citta?
> >
> -------
> N: I know this is still a point for you. When looking at this in a
> practical way it may help. We can notice that what we learnt in
> childhood can still pop up. Where does that come from? It can only
> arise because our life is  along series of cittas arising and falling
> away, but connected. One citta that falls away conditions the
> following one.

I can understand how citta A can condition citta B.  It is like a ball in the
air that is moving in a spiral pattern.  It hits another ball and the second
ball's "spin" is changed by the impact.  This makes sense.  But how can the
citta "store" or "carry" something that is not active?  A citta has no space, no
substance, nowhere to hold, save or put anything.  Memory according to science
pops up from a certain sector of the brain, but citta theory does not believe in
the brain. So where do dormant conditions live in a citta?

Best,
Robert E.

- - - - - - - -



#116085 	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...>
Date: Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:51 pm
Subject: Re: Direct Textual Evidence (Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing) 	sarahprocter...

Hi Rob E, Howard W (Alex, Dieter & all),

--- On Sun, 3/7/11, Robert E <epsteinrob@...> wrote:
>>     What I would ask and have not seen addressed  anywhere is where 1) in the
commentaries, 2) in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, and  3) in the Sutta Pitaka - going
from periphery to core,  it is  stated that meditation, and, more generally, all
intentional  practice, is an obstacle to awakening. If this is such a central 
teaching, the commentaries and the Tipitaka should be filled with it. <....>
...
R:>Well I think you ask the right question, Howard, and I look forward to the
answer along with you, and any relevant quotes.  I have also asked for any place
in the Tipitaka where Buddha says "Be wary of thinking that you can develop any
enlightenment factors through meditation - that is a trap, and meditation is an
expression of self-view."  I think the answer will be that there is not a single
place anywhere in the ancient texts where such a statement is made.
....
S: In other religions, the core of the practice revolves around a Self, an
Atman, a Soul, an Inner Light or a God. What is radical about the Buddha's
Teachings is the truth that there are only conditioned dhammas (apart from
nibbana, the unconditioned dhamma). When we refer to "intentional practice",
"meditation", "awakening", "developing enlightenment factors" or even
"self-view", these are just dhammas that arise and fall away. There is nothing
at all apart from conditioned dhammas at this very moment.

We have the idea that we can calm the physical body or make it work in a
particular way, but the Buddha taught his disciples (and us) from the very
beginning:

"Body, monks, is not self. Now were this body self, monks, this body would not
tend to sickness, and one might get the chance of saying in regard to the body,
'Let body become  thus for me, let body not become thus for me'. But inasmuch,
monks, as body is not self, therefore body tends to sickness, and one does not
get the chance of saying in regard to  body, 'Let body become thus for me, let
body not become thus for me'."

In other words, it's an illusion that through meditation or any other means that
the body can be controlled in any way.

We are used to thinking the same about our feelings, memories and other mental
tendencies, that through the following of particular activities that they can be
calmed or awakened in any way. Again as the Buddha stressed from the outset:

"Feeling is not self...and one does not get the chance of saying in regard to
feeling, 'Let feeling become thus for me, let feeling not become thus for me'.

"Perception (sa~n~naa) is not self....The habitual tendencies are not self...one
does not get the chance of saying in regard to the habitual tendencies, 'Let the
habitual tendencies become thus for me, let the habitual tendencies not become
thus for me'."

It might seem that if nothing 'can be done' that the path is therefore hopeless.
On the contrary, it is the very understanding now of such dhammas as anatta and
not being within anyone's control that is the Path that leads to enlightenment.
If we are still attempting to control/calm/condition the bodily phenomena, the
feelings and habitual tendencies that arise now with an idea that we have a
chance of saying 'Let them be this way or that way', it indicates a lack of
understanding of the core of the Buddha's message.

Even when it comes to consciousness, is there not the idea that through
'(formal) meditation', through 'intentional practice' it can somehow be
developed, calmed and controlled, that somehow this is the way to stop the
'monkey-mind' and develop the enlightenment factors?

However, isn't the consciousness now the only consciousness and isn't it
conditioned already? Isn't it impermanent? How can it ever be 'stopped' or
'controlled' by us or our 'intentional practice/meditation'? As the Buddha said:

"Consciousness is not self.....inasmuch, monks, as consciousness is not self,
therefore consciousness tends to sickness, and one does not get the chance to
say in regard to consciousness, 'Let consciousness become such for me, let
consciousness not become thus for me.'"

Yes, "consciousness tends to sickness". It has always tended "to sickness". It
is sick whenever akusala cittas arise which is most of the day. However, when we
try to make or 'let' it be another way, there are just more sick cittas arising,
more sick feelings, perceptions and other habitual tendencies arising with
ignorance and attachment.

As the Buddha goes on to point out, these dhammas are all impermanent, all
dukkha and none of them are Self or belong to Self in any way.

"Wherefore, monks, whatever is body...feeling...perception...habitual
tendencies...consciousness,  past, future, present, or internal or external, or
gross or subtle, or low or excellent, whether it is far or near - all
body....feeling...perception....habitual tendencies...consciousness should, by
means of right wisdom, be seen, as it really is, thus: This is not mine, this am
I not, this is not my self."

So 'what can be done?', 'Where is the intentional practice?' I hear friends
asking. The questions are still wrongly motivated by an idea of oneself doing
something.

Instead, the Buddha taught that with regard to understanding the khandhas above
as anatta:

"Seeing in this way, monks, the instructed disciple of the ariyans disregards
body and he disregards feeling and he disregards perception and he disregards
the habitual tendencies and he disregards consciousness; disregarding he is
dispassionate; through dispassion he is freed; in freedom the knowledge comes to
be: 'I am freed', and he knows: Destroyed is birth, lived is the Brahma-faring,
done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or such."

The freedom comes through the understanding and dispassion towards what is
conditioned now, just as it is.

As we know, when the five monks heard the sutta, they all became arahants on the
spot. All the teachings should be understood in the light of this Anattalakkhana
Sutta.* The path is one of understanding the khandhas that arise now as anatta,
not of attempting to control or change them in any way.

Metta

Sarah
* This translation of the Anattalakkhana Sutta is from The Vinaya, Mahaavagga 1,
Book of Discipline 4 (PTS), transl by I.B. Horner.
========
What we are told instead that we have to understand the statements in the suttas
and Abhidhamma in the "context of the teachings as a whole" without further
explanation of how that is to be done; and we are told that every passage
describing the specific methods of practicing meditation that abound in both
sutta and Visudhimagga are not instructions but "descriptions" of what some
individuals happened to be doing at the time the suttas were given or the
Visudhimagga was composed.  When the Vis says that the student who wants to
develop skill in meditation will "seek out an experienced teacher who can
instruct him in meditation techniques" [paraphrase] we are told again that even
this is a "description" and not a "prescription or instruction."  To me it is
absolutely absurd that Buddhaghosa would go on for reams of description of
guidance about how to meditate step by step and that this would be interpreted
as "mere description" and not to be followed by
  anyone who wants to progress on the path.
When Buddha states directly that the monks should strive with all their might
and be diligent and unyielding in their intention to reach enlightenment, we are
told that he is just speaking conventionally and really means that these are
arising dhammas that appear by themselves and no one should really do or intend
anything.
If one is committed in advance to dismissing every reference to meditation,
volition, right effort or other things to be focused on, intended, willed or
done in order to develop the path, it is doubtful that those passages will ever
be interpreted correctly, or taken at face value for what they actually say.
Best,

Robert E.
= = = = = = = = = =



#116086 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:34 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Mental unpleasant feeling, grieving. 	nilovg

Dear Lukas,
Op 9-jul-2011, om 14:25 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven:
>
> Why is that there is so much mental unpleasant feeling, this can
> really struck me, and I am wandering like hipnotize in grieve. What
> are the conditions for less grieving, for less domanassa and
> stories with domanassa. After many years of practice, this is still
> here, no more no less.
>
--------
N: When things are not going the way we want them to be there is
aversion, dosa, conditioned by attachment, lobha. We may have
expectations as to other people, situations, a trip. When we expect
something, it is lobha again. The other people or situations are not
at fault, it is our own fault when there is aversion accompanied by
unpleasant feeling. We may come to see the disadvantage of akusala.
Best of all, we can learn to consider characteristics of reality that
appear. We should not merely know their names, such as dosa, but
understand different characteristics. Dosa is different from lobha.
Read Sarah's post today about the uncontrollibilty of realities,
their nature of anattaa.
See what Azita writes:

<Azita: Back to unpleasant mental feeling - its real, its unpleasant,
it passes away, can be followed by more, but what to do?? See it for
what it is and accept unpleasnat mental feeling is not me, is not
mine, is not my self. Less wanting it to be other than what it is can
be liberating>
-----
N: We wish to change what appears already, but this is impossible. It
is gone already and there is nothing left of it.
Whatever reality appears, it is gone when we think of it.
-----
Nina.



#116087 	From: "philip" <philco777@...>
Date: Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:11 pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing 	philofillet

Hi Sarah and all
>
> So, in short, I think it's more useful to understand the cittas and mental
states arising now than to think and speculate about particular situations.


    Ph: I would like to take note of  the above. If a  "particular situation" is
habitually breaking a precept (recreational drinking) very unfortunate if one
believes that it is anything other than a deplorable habit in and of itself,
irregardless of what cittas we speculate (and isn't that what we do?) are behind
it.

     If I habitually and without regret  broke the precepts I would feel like a
fraud to be talking about awareness of fleeting mind states. Emphasis on
"habitually" and "without regret"   &#12540; and I'm not suggesting  that you
are such a fraudulent follower of the Buddha, I'm almost certain you're
not....(but who's to know, you are one of the tribe of surf embracing 
sensualists after all....

     Metta,
      Phil

   p.s Nina, thanks for your helpful post in that other thread, back to you in a
few days...
>
> 2. You agree that much of what we're used to taking for kusala is in fact
akusala but object to "the presumption that certain activities that are meant to
develop more awareness actually do the opposite and merely promote more
self-view and thus more akusala." You also say that it is stated "that
meditation should be avoided since it gives a false sense of being able to
develop awareness when in fact it cannot."
>
> The question, I see it, is what is Buddhist meditation? When does it occur?
What is involved? For me, Buddhist meditation is simply the development of right
understanding of realities that appear, one by one, now. If there's any idea of
pursuing particular activities of any kind in order to "do" "Buddhist
Meditation" to follow the Path - whether that be by reading, listening, going on
retreat, sitting on a cushion or visiting A.Sujin - then it's not understanding,
it's not Buddhist Meditation. The reason is, as you suggest above, that such
activities are being pursued to "promote more self-view" if there is the idea
that by pursuing them there will be more awareness.
>
> 3. You say that by cutting out particular practices of meditation, that the
Noble 8-fold path is cut out and it "reduces the entire path to Right
Understanding and the study of the Dhamma on paper, an inherently intellectual
path......".
>
> I think that by understanding conditioned dhammas rather than thinking in
terms of particular situations, places and steps, we come closer and closer to
understanding what is meant by the development of satipatthana. We come closer
to understanding and developing all the other path factors, which are all
conditioned dhammas too. In other words, we begin to understand that the entire
development of the Path is made up of dhammas which are anatta, not in anyone's
control. We also begin to understand that the only 'study' that matters is the
direct understanding, the direct 'study' of the nama or rupa which appears at
this very moment. This is not an intellectual path, quite the contrary.
>
> 4. You say "it is possible to embrace the Abhidhamma and commentaries without
this unfounded prejudice against Right Practice that the Buddha taught...."
>
> Again, we come back to what is the "Right Practice" as taught by the Buddha.
It is impossible to "embrace the Abhidhamma...." without understanding that the
right practice has to be at this moment and has to involve the direct
understanding of what appears now. Otherwise, it's just an idea about right
practice, imitating the lifestyle of a community of Buddhists or thinking about
ideas of physical seclusion rather than directly understanding the mental
seclusion and calm now at moments of kusala.
>
> 5. You say "it is possible to cultivate Right View and study the Dhamma *and*
meditate, as is described in both the Vism and Abhidhamma."
>
> I would say that if Right View is being cultivated, if the Path is being
followed, then that is bhavana, meditation.
>
> to be contd
>
> Metta
>
> Sarah
> =====
>



#116088 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:21 pm
Subject: Re: Direct Textual Evidence (Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing) 	upasaka_howard

Hi, Sarah (and Robert) -

In a message dated 7/10/2011 3:52:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
sarahprocterabbott@... writes:

Hi Rob  E, Howard W (Alex, Dieter & all),

--- On Sun, 3/7/11, Robert E  <epsteinrob@...> wrote:
>>     What I  would ask and have not seen addressed  anywhere is where 1)
in the  commentaries, 2) in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, and  3) in the Sutta
Pitaka -  going from periphery to core,  it is  stated that meditation, and,
more generally, all intentional  practice, is an obstacle to awakening.  If
this is such a central  teaching, the commentaries and the Tipitaka  should be
filled with it. <....>
...
R:>Well I think you ask  the right question, Howard, and I look forward to
the answer along with you,  and any relevant quotes.  I have also asked for
any place in the Tipitaka  where Buddha says "Be wary of thinking that you
can develop any enlightenment  factors through meditation - that is a trap,
and meditation is an expression  of self-view."  I think the answer will be
that there is not a single  place anywhere in the ancient texts where such a
statement is  made.
....
S: In other religions, the core of the practice revolves  around a Self, an
Atman, a Soul, an Inner Light or a God. What is radical  about the Buddha's
Teachings is the truth that there are only conditioned  dhammas (apart from
nibbana, the unconditioned dhamma). When we refer to  "intentional
practice", "meditation", "awakening", "developing enlightenment  factors" or
even
"self-view", these are just dhammas that arise and fall away.  There is
nothing at all apart from conditioned dhammas at this very  moment.

We have the idea that we can calm the physical body or make it  work in a
particular way, but the Buddha taught his disciples (and us) from  the very
beginning:

"Body, monks, is not self. Now were this body self,  monks, this body would
not tend to sickness, and one might get the chance of  saying in regard to
the body, 'Let body become  thus for me, let body not  become thus for me'.
But inasmuch, monks, as body is not self, therefore body  tends to sickness,
and one does not get the chance of saying in regard  to  body, 'Let body
become thus for me, let body not become thus for  me'."

In other words, it's an illusion that through meditation or any  other
means that the body can be controlled in any way.
------------------------------------------------------
HCW:
     But, of course, Sarah, it can. It can be made to  stand or sit or lie
down or walk or run. It can, through intentional actions, be  calmed or
energized. The body and its breath can clearly be affected by a  multitude of
conditions including volition and volitional activities. This is  not control
in the sense of absolute determinative mastery, causing the body to  do
*whatever* one wishes, but it *is* obvious influence. Even tai chi, for 
example,
has its effects. ;-) There simply is no controller involved in any of  this.
------------------------------------------------------
We are used to thinking the same about our feelings,  memories and other
mental tendencies, that through the following of particular  activities that
they can be calmed or awakened in any way.
--------------------------------------------------------
HCW:
     And this is clearly so.
---------------------------------------------------------

Again as  the Buddha stressed from the outset:

"Feeling is not self...and one  does not get the chance of saying in regard
to feeling, 'Let feeling become  thus for me, let feeling not become thus
for me'.
----------------------------------------------------------
HCW:
     This is true in the short run. However, in the  longer run, what is
found to be unpleasant can be changed, and what is found to  be pleasant can be
changed. Did Angulimala find the thought of killing pleasant  in his later
years? Did the the Buddha find the thoughts of luxurious indulgence
pleasant as he did when living as Gotama in his father's palace. Did intention
play no role in Gotama eventually awakening?
---------------------------------------------------------
"Perception (sa~n~naa) is not self....The habitual  tendencies are not
self...one does not get the chance of saying in regard to  the habitual
tendencies, 'Let the habitual tendencies become thus for me, let  the habitual
tendencies not become thus for me'."
----------------------------------------------------------
HCW:
     No "Let this be, and let that be" like waving a  magic wand works!! We
know that. For example, a cancer patient doesn't go into  remission by
thinking "May I be cleared of this!" But his/her intentionally  taking certain
actions (chemotherapy, proper nutrition, radiation, etc, etc)  may, other
conditions allowing, become cancer-free. Is it guaranteed? With  complete
control? Of course not.
------------------------------------------------------------
It might seem that if nothing 'can be done' that the path  is therefore
hopeless. On the contrary, it is the very understanding now of  such dhammas as
anatta and not being within anyone's control that is the Path  that leads
to enlightenment.
-------------------------------------------------------------
HCW:
     How does understanding come about? Is it random, a  matter of luck,
with no intention involved? Don't you know that this is not so,  Sarah?
------------------------------------------------------

If we  are still attempting to control/calm/condition the bodily phenomena,
the  feelings and habitual tendencies that arise now with an idea that we
have a  chance of saying 'Let them be this way or that way', it indicates a
lack of  understanding of the core of the Buddha's message.
-----------------------------------------------------
HCW:
     The Buddha repeatedly urged meditation, and in part  is was with the
aim of calming the mind.
------------------------------------------------------
Even when it comes to consciousness, is there not the idea  that through
'(formal) meditation', through 'intentional practice' it can  somehow be
developed, calmed and controlled, that somehow this is the way to  stop the
'monkey-mind' and develop the enlightenment factors?
-----------------------------------------------------
HCW:
     Yes, and this idea is valid and, for this  tradition, originated with
the Buddha.
------------------------------------------------------
However, isn't the consciousness now the only consciousness  and isn't it
conditioned already? Isn't it impermanent? How can it ever be  'stopped' or
'controlled' by us or our 'intentional practice/meditation'? As  the Buddha
said:

"Consciousness is not self.....inasmuch, monks, as  consciousness is not
self, therefore consciousness tends to sickness, and one  does not get the
chance to say in regard to consciousness, 'Let consciousness  become such for
me, let consciousness not become thus for  me.'"
------------------------------------------------------
HCW:
     That's right, hand-waving is to no avail.
---------------------------------------------------
Yes, "consciousness tends to sickness". It has always  tended "to
sickness". It is sick whenever akusala cittas arise which is most  of the day.
However, when we try to make or 'let' it be another way, there are  just more
sick
cittas arising, more sick feelings, perceptions and other  habitual
tendencies arising with ignorance and attachment.

As the  Buddha goes on to point out, these dhammas are all impermanent, all
dukkha and  none of them are Self or belong to Self in any way.

"Wherefore, monks,  whatever is body...feeling...perception...habitual
tendencies...consciousness,  past, future, present, or internal or  external,
or gross or subtle, or low or excellent, whether it is far or near -  all
body....feeling...perception....habitual tendencies...consciousness  should, by
means of right wisdom, be seen, as it really is, thus: This is not  mine,
this am I not, this is not my self."

So 'what can be done?',  'Where is the intentional practice?' I hear
friends asking. The questions are  still wrongly motivated by an idea of oneself
doing  something.
----------------------------------------------------
HCW:
     Not necessarily at all. Intention is one thing,  whereas sense-of-self
is another.
--------------------------------------------------
Instead, the Buddha taught that with regard to  understanding the khandhas
above as anatta:

"Seeing in this way, monks,  the instructed disciple of the ariyans
disregards body and he disregards  feeling and he disregards perception and he
disregards the habitual tendencies  and he disregards consciousness;
disregarding he is dispassionate; through  dispassion he is freed; in freedom
the
knowledge comes to be: 'I am freed',  and he knows: Destroyed is birth, lived is
the Brahma-faring, done is what was  to be done, there is no more of being
such or such."

The freedom comes  through the understanding and dispassion towards what is
conditioned now, just  as it is.
----------------------------------------------------
HCW:
     The Buddha taught intentional practice to cultivate  understanding and
dispassion.
----------------------------------------------------
As we know, when the five monks heard the sutta, they all  became arahants
on the spot. All the teachings should be understood in the  light of this
Anattalakkhana Sutta.* The path is one of understanding the  khandhas that
arise now as anatta, not of attempting to control or change them  in any way.

Metta

Sarah
* This translation of the  Anattalakkhana Sutta is from The Vinaya,
Mahaavagga 1, Book of Discipline 4  (PTS), transl by I.B. Horner.
========
What we are told  instead that we have to understand the statements in the
suttas and Abhidhamma  in the "context of the teachings as a whole" without
further explanation of  how that is to be done; and we are told that every
passage describing the  specific methods of practicing meditation that abound
in both sutta and  Visudhimagga are not instructions but "descriptions" of
what some individuals  happened to be doing at the time the suttas were
given or the Visudhimagga was  composed.  When the Vis says that the student who
wants to develop skill  in meditation will "seek out an experienced teacher
who can instruct him in  meditation techniques" [paraphrase] we are told
again that even this is a  "description" and not a "prescription or
instruction."  To me it is  absolutely absurd that Buddhaghosa would go on for
reams
of description of  guidance about how to meditate step by step and that this
would be interpreted  as "mere description" and not to be followed by
anyone who wants to  progress on the path.
When Buddha states directly that  the monks should strive with all their
might and be diligent and unyielding in  their intention to reach
enlightenment, we are told that he is just speaking  conventionally and really
means
that these are arising dhammas that appear by  themselves and no one should
really do or intend anything.
If  one is committed in advance to dismissing every reference to
meditation,  volition, right effort or other things to be focused on, intended,
willed
or  done in order to develop the path, it is doubtful that those passages
will  ever be interpreted correctly, or taken at face value for what they
actually  say.
Best,

Robert E.
================================
With metta,
Howard


Seamless Interdependence

/A change in  anything is a change in  everything/

(Anonymous)



#116089 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:31 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] The Fourth Jhana: The Royal Road to Awakening 	nilovg

Hi Howard,

Op 9-jul-2011, om 17:31 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven:

> the sutta is perfectly clear, and the contortions that folks go
> to try to change the meaning only displays to me how tightly people
> cling
> to their personal beliefs. There are suttas that require
> elucidation. This
> is not one of them.
------
N: I see your point. You mean, why is the word emerge not used in the
case of the lower jhaanas.
Sarah in her old post quotes a note in the Bodhi translation:
<This indirect introspective method must be used to contemplate the
fourth
immaterial attainment because this attainment, being extremely
subtle, does not
enter into the direct range of investigation for disciples. Only fully
enlightened Buddhas are able to contemplate it directly."

S: This is interesting as it seems to even include Sariputta. In the
case of the
other jhana cittas and factors, they can be known 'as present
objects' by the
immediately succeeding cittas (for these disciples), just as seeing
or visible
object can be known 'as present objects' by succeeding mind-door
cittas in the
development of satipatthana.>

-------

N: First, let us consider the objects of jhaanacittas: these arise in
a process and within one process cittas cannot change objects. This
makes sense to me. There is very strong one-pointedness on one
object, the meditation subject, and how could this be interrupted
during one process of jhaanacittas.

For a beginner, jhaanacitta may be one moment, but for advanced
people, jhaanacittas may occur uninterruptedly for  along time, cven
during a whole day.

When for example infinite space is the object, the jhaanacittas in
one process have just that object, they cannot change object.

In the sutta the expression uninterrupted determined, anupada
vavatthitaa, is used.

Anupada: anu can mean following. pada is verse or unit of verses.
Following at every step, continuous, repeated. Anupada"m, adverbial
use: Close behind, immediately behind.

The text says that Saariputta hads uninterrupted insight into
dhammas: anupada vipassanaa.

In the Diighanakhasutta (M. I, 497, sutta 74) at the end we read that
Saariputta fanned the Buddha and became an arahat. He could also very
quickly enter into jhaana and emerge from it while fanning. He had
the masteries (vasis) of jhaana. Evenso, as we read in the
Anupadasutta, he was developing insight of each of these
jhaanafactors, and he could have entered and emerged from jhaana very
quickly. It was not necessary to mention this in the sutta in the
case of the lower jhaanas.

As you say and as we read in the text : emerging is required only
from  "the 9th jhana" (of cessation of feeling and perception). Here
the reason is given as indicated in the quote made by Sarah. It does
not refer to entering and emerging very rapidly in order to develop
right understanding of jhaanafactorsof the lower jhaanas.

--------

Nina.

#116090 	From: "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:35 am
Subject: Direct Textual Evidence (Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing) 	truth_aerator
Online Now Send IM
Send Email Send Email
  	

Dear Sarah, all,

>S:In other religions, the core of the practice revolves around a >Self, an
Atman, a Soul, an Inner Light or a God.
>================================================================

A: Many religions do not really have what we call "Practice to develop wisdom
that will make all suffering cease". Most Christians are not really that
different from secular people in their behaviour most of the time. So some
Christians go to church once a week, celebrate certain holidays, believe in
Jesus, pray sometimes and so forth... Other than that, not that much difference
- especially inside.  They are also promised heaven after this life. They can't
reach total liberation while still alive, like the Buddha said about his path.


>S:What is radical about the Buddha's Teachings is

A: The way to make all Dukkha cease even in this life.
>"Body, monks, is not self. Now were this body self, monks, this >body would not
tend to sickness, and one might get the chance of >saying in regard to the body,
'Let body become  thus for me, let >body not become thus for me'.


A: It seems that the emphasis is in inability to prevent such big things as
sickness, aging and death.  I am not completely sure that the Buddha wanted to
deny such kind of control as moving a finger after intention to move it.

Through practice of letting go by developing wisdom, the momentum will
accumulate until effortless complete letting go will occur.

It is true that in the beginning, there will be difficulties and failures
because of past accumulated negative qualities.  But the effort at accumulating
wholesome qualities now, will provide accumulations for the future effortless
and spontaneous arising of wholesome states.


The suttas and VsM are full of instructions on what to do.

Some may say that "every passage describing the specific methods of practicing
meditation that abound in both sutta and Visudhimagga are not instructions but
"descriptions" of what some individuals happened to be doing at the time the
suttas were given or the Visudhimagga was composed. " and that those people had
the natural habit and inclination due to previous paramis for those actions.

But, How did the natural inclination to practice originate in the first place?

We are not born to be lawyers. We are not born with clothing, and so forth. So
new habits do start after practice. Of course it is imperfect at first, but
after enough time and proper effort, it can become perfect. "Hard in training,
easy in battle". The practice to abandon ignorance does start with ignorance.
Otherwise one would never be able to get rid of it.


So with those monks. They weren't always doing what they are said to be doing in
the suttas and VsM. They were beginners at first. They had to start somewhere
and accumulate little by little until they got skillful.

IMHO.


With metta,

Alex



#116091 	From: "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:13 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] control 	truth_aerator
Online Now Send IM
Send Email Send Email
  	

Dear Nina, all,

>N: We may have expectations as to other people, situations, a trip. >When we
expect   something, it is lobha again.
>===========================================================

Sometimes, sure. But not always. The Buddha didn't have lobha when He went to
the almsround even though He expected to get some alms.


>N:Read Sarah's post today about the uncontrollibilty of realities,
>their nature of anattaa.
>===============================================================


While there is no cartoonish version of control, there is such thing as
influence, and there are controlling faculties (indriyas, bala, etc) that DO
control certain things. There are also causes the control their effects.


It is true that one can't wish to allay hunger by wishing for food to be in the
stomach, but (assuming one has the capabilities) one can walk and grab the food
from the refrigerator, and eat.


IMHO.


With metta,

Alex



#116092 	From: "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:13 am
Subject: What is meant by Anatta 	truth_aerator
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Dear Sarah, Nina, Phil, all,


In most cases this is how the Buddha has framed it:

>==========================================================
"'is the eye constant or inconstant?"
"Inconstant, lord."
"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"
"Stressful, lord."
"And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change
as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"
"No, lord.""
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.147.than.html
Repeat the same for other sense bases, aggregates, elements, etc.
>=============================================================


Please note exactly what the Buddha is rejecting. He is rejecting an idea of
Atta that is permanent and happy. He is not rejecting the empirical individual
and effort by the person. In fact he never heard such a nihilistic doctrine of
total no-control (where there is no self or other influence of any kind).


>================================================
"Venerable Gotama, I am one of such a doctrine, of such a view: `There is no
self-doer, there is no other-doer.'"[1]

"I have not, brahman, seen or heard such a doctrine, such a view. How, indeed,
could one � moving forward by himself, moving back by himself [2] � say: `There
is no self-doer, there is no other-doer'? What do you think, brahmin, is there
an element or principle of initiating or beginning an action?"[3]

"Just so, Venerable Sir."

"When there is an element of initiating, are initiating beings [4] clearly
discerned?"

"Just so, Venerable Sir."

"So, brahmin, when there is the element of initiating, initiating beings are
clearly discerned; of such beings, this is the self-doer, this, the other-doer.
[5]

"What do you think, brahmin, is there an element of exertion [6] ... is there an
element of effort [7] ... is there an element of steadfastness [8] ... is there
an element of persistence [9] ... is there an element of endeavoring?" [10]

"Just so, Venerable Sir."

"When there is an element of endeavoring, are endeavoring beings clearly
discerned?"

"Just so, Venerable Sir."

"So, brahmin, when there is the element of endeavoring, endeavoring beings are
clearly discerned; of such beings, this is the self-doer, this, the other-doer.
I have not, brahmin, seen or heard such a doctrine, such a view as yours. How,
indeed, could one � moving forward by himself, moving back by himself � say
`There is no self-doer, there is no other-doer'?"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.038.niza.html
>==============================================================

"Monks, there are these three sectarian guilds that � when cross-examined,
pressed for reasons, & rebuked by wise people � even though they may explain
otherwise, remain stuck in [a doctrine of] inaction. Which three? "There are
priests & contemplatives who hold this teaching, hold this view: 'Whatever a
person experiences � pleasant, painful, or neither pleasant nor painful � that
is all caused by what was done in the past.' ...

"Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that... 'Whatever a
person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past,' I said to
them: 'Is it true that you hold that... "Whatever a person experiences... is all
caused by what was done in the past?"' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.'
Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings
because of what was done in the past. A person is a thief... unchaste... a
liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy...
malicious... a holder of wrong views because of what was done in the past.' When
one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is
no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be
done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be
done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to
oneself as a contemplative. This was my first righteous refutation of those
priests & contemplatives who hold to such teachings, such views.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.061.than.html
>==================================================================


Past causes alone are not sufficient causes to make one an alcoholic, a
sensualist or whatever.
With metta,

Alex



#116093 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:24 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] What is meant by Anatta 	upasaka_howard

Hi, Alex (and Nina, and Phil) -

In a message dated 7/10/2011 1:13:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
truth_aerator@... writes:

Dear  Sarah, Nina, Phil, all,


In most cases this is how the Buddha has  framed  it:

>==========================================================
"'is  the eye constant or inconstant?"
"Inconstant, lord."
"And is that which  is inconstant easeful or stressful?"
"Stressful, lord."
"And is it  fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to
change as: 'This  is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"
"No,  lord.""
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.147.than.html
Repeat  the same for other sense bases, aggregates, elements,  etc.
>=============================================================


Please  note exactly what the Buddha is rejecting. He is rejecting an idea
of Atta  that is permanent and happy. He is not rejecting the empirical
individual and  effort by the person. In fact he never heard such a nihilistic
doctrine of  total no-control (where there is no self or other influence of
any  kind).


>================================================
"Venerable  Gotama, I am one of such a doctrine, of such a view: `There is
no self-doer,  there is no other-doer.'"[1]

"I have not, brahman, seen or heard such a  doctrine, such a view. How,
indeed, could one — moving forward by himself,  moving back by himself [2] —
say: `There is no self-doer, there is no  other-doer'? What do you think,
brahmin, is there an element or principle of  initiating or beginning an
action?"[3]

"Just so, Venerable  Sir."

"When there is an element of initiating, are initiating beings  [4] clearly
discerned?"

"Just so, Venerable Sir."

"So, brahmin,  when there is the element of initiating, initiating beings
are clearly  discerned; of such beings, this is the self-doer, this, the
other-doer.  [5]

"What do you think, brahmin, is there an element of exertion [6]  ... is
there an element of effort [7] ... is there an element of steadfastness  [8]
... is there an element of persistence [9] ... is there an element of
endeavoring?" [10]

"Just so, Venerable Sir."

"When there is an  element of endeavoring, are endeavoring beings clearly
discerned?"

"Just so, Venerable Sir."

"So, brahmin, when there  is the element of endeavoring, endeavoring beings
are clearly discerned; of  such beings, this is the self-doer, this, the
other-doer. I have not, brahmin,  seen or heard such a doctrine, such a view
as yours. How, indeed, could one —  moving forward by himself, moving back by
himself — say `There is no  self-doer, there is no  other-doer'?"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.038.niza.html
--------------------------------------------------------
HCW:
     I don't know who this Gotama guy is, but he should  not, under any
circumstances, be allowed membership to DSG! We sure don't need a  guy like that
who obviously doesn't understand the Dhamma!! ;-)
------------------------------------------------------


>==============================================================

"Monks,  there are these three sectarian guilds that — when cross-examined,
pressed for  reasons, & rebuked by wise people — even though they may
explain  otherwise, remain stuck in [a doctrine of] inaction. Which three?
"There
are  priests & contemplatives who hold this teaching, hold this view:
'Whatever  a person experiences — pleasant, painful, or neither pleasant nor
painful —  that is all caused by what was done in the past.' ...

"Having  approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that... 'Whatever
a  person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past,' I
said to  them: 'Is it true that you hold that... "Whatever a person
experiences... is  all caused by what was done in the past?"' Thus asked by me,
they
admitted,  'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a
killer of living  beings because of what was done in the past. A person is a
thief...  unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh speaker... an idle
  chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong views because of
what  was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past
as  being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought],
'This  should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a
truth or  reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered &
unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative.
This  was my first righteous refutation of those priests & contemplatives who
hold to such teachings, such  views.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.061.than.html
>==================================================================


Past  causes alone are not sufficient causes to make one an alcoholic, a
sensualist  or whatever.
------------------------------------------------------
HCW:
     I don't think this pertains to past conditions in  general, Alex, but
only to one's own kamma.
------------------------------------------------------


With metta,

Alex

==================================
With metta,
Howard


Seamless Interdependence

/A change in  anything is a change in  everything/

(Anonymous)

#116094 	From: "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:13 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] What is meant by Anatta 	truth_aerator
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Send Email Send Email
  	

Hello Howard CW, all,

> ------------------------------------------------------
>HCW: I don't think this pertains to past conditions in  general, >Alex, but
only to one's own kamma.
> ------------------------------------------------------


What is the difference between past conditions and past kamma?

Isn't kamma a past condition? So if AN3.61 says that previous kamma is not the
cause of present behaviour, then can we say that past causes are not the
sufficient cause of present behaviour?

Think about it. An old person who is dying has lots of memories, skills,
education, knows languages, etc. A little child who is reborn does not have
these and has to learn how to walk, talk, speak, go to school to learn things,
etc... This seems to show that there is no linear version of accumulations that
only increases. Even though old person may have been greatly educated and all,
s/he at rebirth will have to start almost from a scratch, at least as far as
verbal theoretic knowledge and physical stuff is concerned.

With best wishes,

Alex



#116095 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:12 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] What is meant by Anatta 	upasaka_howard

Hi, Alex -

In a message dated 7/10/2011 3:13:20 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
truth_aerator@... writes:

Hello  Howard CW, all,

>  ------------------------------------------------------
>HCW: I don't  think this pertains to past conditions in  general, >Alex,
but only to  one's own kamma.
>  ------------------------------------------------------


What is the  difference between past conditions and past kamma?
----------------------------------------------
HCW:
     One's own past kamma is one sort  of condition. The instances of kamma
of others are other sorts. (You can be  affected by the intentional actions
of others.) The various namas  and rupas other than intention of one's own
and of other's are "past  conditions" that are not past kamma  - of anyone's.
(The prior  instances of seeing by you and others, for example, are not
past  kamma, but they certainly are past conditions.)
     This business of past action not being  all-determinative  pertains
only to one's own kamma.
---------------------------------------------
Isn't kamma a past condition?
--------------------------------------------
HCW:
     Yes, every instance of past kamma is a past  condition, but not all
past conditions are past kamma, and not all past kamma is  one's OWN past
kamma. (My past intentions and intentional actions are  past kamma, but not
yours.)
--------------------------------------

So if  AN3.61 says that previous kamma is not the cause of present
behaviour, then  can we say that past causes are not the sufficient cause of
present
  behaviour?
------------------------------------
HCW:
     No. Past conditions are the basis for current  events, but one's own
past kamma is, usually, insufficient. That is the  point.
---------------------------------

Think about it. An old person who is dying has lots of  memories, skills,
education, knows languages, etc. A little child who is  reborn does not have
these and has to learn how to walk, talk, speak, go to  school to learn
things, etc... This seems to show that there is no linear  version of
accumulations that only increases. Even though old person may have  been greatly
educated and all, s/he at rebirth will have to start almost from  a scratch, at
least as far as verbal theoretic knowledge and physical stuff is  concerned.
----------------------------------------
HCW:
     I'm missing your point, Alex.
---------------------------------------
With best wishes,

Alex

================================
With metta,
Howard


Seamless Interdependence

/A change in  anything is a change in  everything/

(Anonymous)

#116096 	From: "Robert E" <epsteinrob@...>
Date: Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:51 am
Subject: [dsg] Re: Hello 	epsteinrob

Hi Howard N.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Howard Nylander <uziyah@...> wrote:
>
> Namaste' Dieter,
>
> I love what you sent and have saved same for further study. Thank you for
> sharing.  Yet, my questions remains, is not the quest to obtain an end, such
as
> reaching the other shore?

Nice to meet you, Howard.  Just jumping in - I'm not sure if I have the whole
thread of this discussion, but I would say that definitely there is a goal of
"reaching the other shore," but on the other hand, the reality of that other
shore is right here.  Therefore in a sense the other shore is just eliminating
whatever ignorance/illusion we have about what our reality actually is.

If the other shore is the present moment in its full reality, and we are
thinking about another shore "somewhere or sometime else" then our own
orientation to the goal may be distracting us or preventing us from getting
there; or to say that in a more tortured way - "getting here."  So I would say
it's good to know the goal, and also what the goal actually is, and it's also
good not to think about the goal being somewhere else, but focusing on what is
here now, and breaking through the treasured concepts and attachments that keep
us from seeing clearly.

Hope that's not all too convoluted...

> My question is precipitated by the fact that Cayce suggests I am an 'old soul'
> with this life being the possibility of my final transmigration to the realm
of
> souls. This is why I desire to achieve the 'Christed' mind of Jesus and the
> Buddha mind of Master Gautama, which I feel are one and the same.

They may be the same, or they may be different high states on the path to full
realization.  Not sure who knows or doesn't know that for sure.  But one thing
is sure - that these spiritual paths have different languages and techniques.  I
wonder whether one can try to coordinate those with each other, or if it is
better to see each one in its own right.

If one were to engage in Christian contemplation to reach the state of Oneness
with God as St. John of the Cross and others did, one would probably spend years
in contemplation, using those Christian concepts and methods to get to that
state.

If one were to engage with Buddhist study or Buddhist meditation, that is also a
very long systematic path, even if one has already had an eye-opening initial
experience.  Even for a mystic who knows that this reality is not the 'real
thing,' it takes years to get rid of all the defilements/illusions/attachments
that stand in the way of the truly free and balanced state of being.  So it
might be hard to follow an eclectic path and get in a very definite direction. 
On the other hand it may be possible.  I just think it's a good idea to look at
what one is doing with eyes open and, realizing the difficulty of the path,
decide what is right for your temperament, lifestyle and inclination.  That's
been a struggle for me too.  But it's sometimes hard to follow several
philosophies at once and really get in-depth to a different state of being.

   Are there
> provisions for this achievement within the teachings of Buddhism? Perhaps
others
> would care to share as well.

Different schools of Buddhism look at the goal and methods differently, but they
all agree that the final state is one in which delusion and clinging have been
completely eradicated.  That state of total freedom and selfless wisdom is
called nibbana or nirvana in Buddhism, although technically some here may
consider it the "object" of that state, rather than a state itself.  But that is
too technical even for me to remind myself exactly how that works.  But there is
such a goal, there is such a state, and Buddhism does have that end in its view.

Some here believe that the only way to reach that state of wisdom is through
pure study and understanding of the scriptures in which the wise have laid out
the path of understanding to this goal.  The main scriptures that are the center
of the path for many in this group are within a body of analysis called the
Abhidhamma, which I guess could be translated as something like "The Higher
Teachings" of Buddhism,  and the commentaries that have been written to explain
the Abhidhamma.  Many of these scriptures and commentaries are extremely complex
and require a lot of study to even understand what they are saying.  Nina here
in this group has written a number of very helpful books to explain the themes
of the Abhidhamma in language that human beings can understand.  :-)

And others here believe that active meditation and other practices in the world
are necessary in order to follow the path.  We have a lot of debates about such
things. Hope you find the range of understandings of the group to be useful to
your quest!

Best,
Robert E.

- - - - - - - - - -



#116097 	From: "Robert E" <epsteinrob@...>
Date: Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:59 am
Subject: [dsg] What Would Be Revising 2? Re: Revising 1: Arising of Mundane Paññaa 	epsteinrob

Hi Jon.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" <jonabbott@...> wrote:

> Direct knowledge of a dhamma requires that the dhamma be presently arising. 
So I see the present moment as meaning, in the context of the teachings. the
dhammas that are presently arising and that can be the object of
awareness/insight (if that awareness/insight should arise).
>
> So while conventionally speaking the present moment is, as you say, the
present conventional reality, I understand the Buddha to be pointing to a
reality that could be described as reality in a deeper sense or, as it is
described in the abhidhamma, in the absolute sense.
>
> Now as I understand the teachings, this reality in the absolute sense is not
to be discerned by a deeper study of conventional things, but by coming to see
how the world of dhammas is a world other than the world of conventional things.

Well, it seems that you are talking either of two worlds taking place
simeoltaneously or of switching back and forth between two different worlds, or
views.  So when we are experiencing concepts dhammas are of course arising and
falling at the same time but we don't see them.  So is it a misapprehension of
dhammas that are there at the moment that will be seen correctly when panna
arises, or is it that we don't see the dhammas at all and instead our attention
is diverted to concepts that are constructed out of separate whole cloth?

In addition to the question above, if concepts are not misapprehended dhammas,
what "whole cloth" are they made out of?  Is consciousness seeing an image that
it itself created when it sees a concept?  What exactly is the makeup and
substance of a concept?  It's obviously "perceivable" or we wouldn't experience
them at all. So what the heck are they?  Some kind of thought-form?

Best,
Robert E.

= = = = = = = =



#116098 	From: "Robert E" <epsteinrob@...>
Date: Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:02 am
Subject: Re: should one try one's best? 	epsteinrob

Hi Jon.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" <jonabbott@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Robert E
>
> (115254)
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" <epsteinrob@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Jon.
> >
> > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" <jonabbott@> wrote:
> >
> > > J:  There is no kaamma that leads to a 'mixed' result.  Kamma is either
kusala or akusala, leading to kusala (pleasant) or akusala (unpleasant) vipaka.
> > >
> > > A 'mixed result' is in fact the result of both good kamma and bad kamma,
each bringing its own appropriate result.
> >
> > [RE:] So the negative kamma could lead one to born in unpleasant
surroundings, while the positive kusala kamma could lead one to have good things
happen while in those same surroundings?
> > ===============
>
> J:  Yes, exactly so.  Any combination of good and bad results could occur (the
possibilities are infinite).

Thanks.  I'll be careful then to make sure my good kamma is accompanied by other
good kamma, rather than bad.  I don't want to wind up having good friends, but
drowning in a swamp at the same time.  Hm...on the other hand, that sounds
familiar....

Best,
Robert E.

= = = = = = =



#116099 	From: "Robert E" <epsteinrob@...>
Date: Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:09 am
Subject: Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening 	epsteinrob

Hi pt.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" <ptaus1@...> wrote:

> pt: As is the tradition, every three months or so you guys return to the
subject of driving into trees, and then I usually chime in with something like
the following (sorry I'm a bit late this time):
>
> As I understand it, when KenH says things like "no trees, no cars", he is in
fact referring to an instance of insight. When an instance of insight is
occurring of a vipassana nana strength), the object of citta at the time is not
a concept such as a tree or a car, but a dhamma like a visible object, or
perception, etc. Sort of like when the sutta says - form is anatta, perception
is anatta, etc. So in an instance of insight, consciousness and wisdom are
preoccupied with a dhamma and its characteristics, not concepts.
>
> Then, in the next split second, a few mind-door processes later, once an
instance of insight has fallen away, consciousness may take a conceptualisation
of a tree as object. And this is where we leave the world of insight and enter
the world of common sense, science, etc. And then there might be conceptualized
recollection that driving into trees is no good, and then that trees should be
avoided. Etc. Of course, nothing wrong with common sense and science, they are
very helpful, but for someone interested in insight (like KenH), they probably
aren't of special interest.
>
> So in terms of a Dhamma discussion, imo, you guys are basically arguing apples
and oranges - the two mind-door processes are with entirely different cittas,
with two different classes of objects and two different sets of cetasikas.
>
> So basically Alex, when KenH says "there are no trees, cars, people, etc," you
need to mentally translate his words into smth like "during an instance of
insight, the citta is only concerned with processing a khanda (a dhamma and its
characteristics), and is capable of processing conceptually the trees, cars,
etc, only in later mind-door processes."

I think I've gotten in the habit of coming in here after you to recomplicate
things, so I will continue the pattern...:

What you say is good and helpful as far as experience is concerned, but it does
not settle the question of what is the actual reality that exists in truth. The
answer to that question would likely be that there really *are* no trees or
cars, according to Ken H.  This is the realization I think that he would like
the rest of us to wake up to.  The things of this world actually aren't there. 
It's just a temporary game of pretend while we wait for insight to develop.  So
in that view, if I am correct, Ken H. would say that it doesn't really matter if
you crash into a tree and die, except for the fact that you are not yet
enlightened and may thus be reborn as a frog.  That would hamper your progress
on the path, so you navigate the concepts in order to keep the vehicle of the
current Dhamma mind intact.

Another question is, taking your scenario which makes a lot of sense, what
happens if you have more than one insight moment in a row and you happen to be
"driving?"  If you stayed in the perception of "mere arising dhammas" you would
in fact crash into the tree and die, would you not?  So does one stick with the
insight experience at that point and gamble conventional death vs.
enlightenment, or does one say "later" for the insight experience and save the
conceptual body, car and tree?

Interested in what you may think about the above, and happy to hear from Ken H.
and Alex as well.

Best,
Robert E.

= = = = = = =



#116100 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:13 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] What is meant by Anatta 	upasaka_howard

Hi again, Alex -

In a message dated 7/10/2011 4:13:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
upasaka@... writes unclearly:

HCW:
Yes, every instance of past kamma is a  past  condition, but not all
past conditions are past kamma, and not  all past kamma is  one's OWN past
kamma. (My past intentions and  intentional actions are  past kamma, but
not
yours.)
====================================
     This is better formulated as  follows:

     Yes, every instance of past kamma  is a past condition, but not all
past conditions are past kamma, and not all  past kamma is one's OWN past
kamma. (My past intentions and intentional  actions are past kamma of mine
but not of
yours.)

With metta,
Howard


Seamless Interdependence

/A change in  anything is a change in  everything/

(Anonymous)

#116101 	From: "Ken H" <kenhowardau@yahoo.com.au>
Date: Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:19 am
Subject: Re: wisdom and doing 	kenhowardau

Hi Phil, (Sarah and Nina),

---------
<. . .>
>> S: So, in short, I think it's more useful to understand the cittas and mental
states arising now than to think and speculate about particular situations.
>>

> Ph: I would like to take note of  the above. If a  "particular situation" is
habitually breaking a precept (recreational drinking) very unfortunate if one
believes that it is anything other than a deplorable habit in and of itself,
irregardless of what cittas we speculate (and isn't that what we do?) are behind
it.
So, in short, I think it's more useful to understand the cittas and mental
states arising now than to think and speculate about particular situations.
----------

KH: I think we should note that Sarah is not talking about *doing* something. As
Nina reminded me recently (when I had said "Let's just have right understanding
now!") right understanding cannot be controlled.  It is not brought about by
"doing" something.

If right understanding is conditioned to arise now, that is good.  If, instead,
'thinking and speculating about particular situations' is conditioned to arise
now, that is not so good.    Either way, it is just whatever dhammas are
conditioned to arise, beyond control.

Ken H



#116102 	From: "Ken H" <kenhowardau@yahoo.com.au>
Date: Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:12 pm
Subject: Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can le 	kenhowardau

Hi pt,

Thanks for your interesting thoughts on diplomacy. I can see a need for it when
talking to people who have not yet chosen to study the Dhamma. After that,
however, (to use a wrestling term) no holds should be barred.

Only views can be right or wrong; there are no right or wrong people to worry
about.

-------------
> KH: OK but, strictly speaking, there are only the six worlds described in the
suttas - inhabited solely by namas and rupas. There is no seventh world
inhabited by people etc.

pt: No, but thinking does happen, so both insight and thinking do occur
ultimately. I feel it is this fact that could bridge the gap in your argument
with Alex - i.e. both insight (about visual objects in our example) and thinking
(about cars and trees) do occur in different mind-door processes, and so they
are not the opposites. In other words, the ultimate and the conceptual simply
have different functions and experientially occur at different instances. So
neither of you is wrong I feel.
--------------

KH: Hmph! I will let you take that up with Alex. :-)

Ken H



#116103 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:56 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing 	nilovg

Dear Ken H,
Op 11-jul-2011, om 0:19 heeft Ken H het volgende geschreven:

> If right understanding is conditioned to arise now, that is good.
> If, instead, 'thinking and speculating about particular situations'
> is conditioned to arise now, that is not so good.
--------
N: When we see such moments as just dhammas we learn not to mind or
to judge: this is   good, this is not so good. Otherwise the reader
may surreptiously select dhammas.
As Jon said: all dhammas are equally worthy as objects of mindfulness.
-------
Nina.


#116104 	From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" <bhikkhu3@...>
Date: Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:20 am
Subject: The Meaning of the 7 links? 	bhikkhu5

Friends:
How are the 7 Links leading to Awakening?

Venerable S�riputta
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/sa/saariputta.htm>  once
explained:
They conduce and lead to the state of enlightenment; in this sense are they
links to awakening! They are in, of and by themselves enlightening; also in
this sense are they indeed links to awakening!

Establishing as the meaning of Awareness
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Awareness_Sati.htm>  has to be
directly experienced.
Examination as the meaning of Investigation
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Investigation_Vicaya.htm>  has to be
directly experienced.
Exertion of Effort as the meaning of Energy
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Energy_Viriya.htm>  has to be
directly experienced.
Intense Contentment as the meaning of Joy
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Joy_Piti.htm>  has to be directly
experienced.
Stilled Peace as the meaning of Tranquillity
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Tranquillity_Passaddhi.htm>  has to
be directly experienced.
Non-Distraction as the meaning of Concentration
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Concentration_Samadhi.htm>  has to be
directly experienced.
Even Ballance as the meaning of Equanimity
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Equanimity_Upekkha.htm>  has to be
directly experienced.


They are enlightening as a root, thus are they links to awakening.
They are enlightening as a cause, thus are they links to awakening.
They are enlightening as a requisite, thus are they links to awakening.
They are enlightening as a purification, thus are they links to awakening.
They are enlightening as blamelessness, thus are they links to awakening.
They are enlightening as withdrawal exit, thus are they links to awakening.
They are enlightening as delivering freedom, thus are they links to
awakening.
They are enlightening as lack of fermentation, thus are they links to
awakening.
They are enlightening as silent solitary seclusion, thus are they links to
awakening.
They are enlightening as a releasing relinquishment, thus are they links to
awakening.

<...>
Source (edited extract): S�riputta
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/sa/saariputta.htm>
Path of Discrimination: Patisambhidamagga
<http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=133494> .
Treatise on the Links to Awakening XIII.
Have a nice & noble day!

Friendship is the Greatest!
  <http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Bhikkhu_Samahita> Bhikkhu
Sam�hita _/\_ *
<...>



#116105 	From: "Robert E" <epsteinrob@...>
Date: Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:52 pm
Subject: Re: Hello 	epsteinrob

Hi Ken H.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" <kenhowardau@...> wrote:

> There is only one moment of consciousness at a time, and when that
consciousness falls away nothing continues on to the next moment. Every moment
of consciousness contains our birth, life and death. Any other existence is an
illusion.

What about all the conditioning that has come from the previous citta and which
continues on in its influence on the next citta, and ad infinitum?  In what
sense does "nothing continue" on to the next moment when the present citta
carries all the influences and accumulations of the previous citta, which is in
fact what largely causes it to be a "conditioned dhamma?"

Best,
Robert E.

= = = = = = =



#116106 	From: "Robert E" <epsteinrob@...>
Date: Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:26 pm
Subject: Re: Satipatthana Sutta - Reflection on corpses 	epsteinrob

Hi Jon.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" <jonabbott@...> wrote:

> Reflection on the repulsiveness of the body is one of the contemplations that
supports the development of samatha to a very high degree.  As you say, it
involves contemplation of the parts and ingredients of the body in conventional
terms.
>
> The question, then, is whether the simile of the sack full of various kinds of
grain is referring to just the same contemplation in conventional terms, or to
something else.
>
> You quoted this passage not so long ago.  As I mentioned then, the commentary
says the following:
>
> "The following is the application of the simile: Like the bag with the two
openings is the body made up of the four great primaries, earth, water, fire and
air."
>
> The four great primaries (earth, water, fire and air) are dhammas that are
rupas.
>
> So according to the commentary, the passage is referring to the development of
awareness of dhammas: what we take for the body is, in terms of paramattha
dhammas, nothing more than the 4 primary rupas.
>
> As regards the reference to contemplating the body in the body, the commentary
explains that 'in the body' means 'in the corporeal group' i.e., in rupa-khandha
>
> So we come down again to a matter of interpretation, that is to say, whether
the Buddha is saying that this particular samatha contemplation is a condition
for the arising of insight into dhammas, or whether he's saying that for those
who have already developed and are skilled in this particular samatha
contemplation (and in the development of awareness as well) there can at the
same time be the development of insight with dhammas as object.

As I have said before, "a matter of interpretation" is not equal on all sides. 
Unless some evidence is presented to show why the Buddha would talk about and
list all the ingredients of the body and really mean the 'four great elements'
one should "interpret" that he means 'the ingredients of the body' as he has
listed them.  The commentator here says "what he really means by this is X" but
presents no evidence that this is the case, or why Buddha would not say this
directly as the commentator does.  In such a case I presume logically, with no
evidence to the contrary, that the commentator has his own sincere understanding
of what the significance of the sutta is, and is "reading it into" the sutta,
rather than this being the actual original intent of a Buddha who would be so
skilled at hiding what he really meant to say.

I am seeing this pattern in several commentaries where the commentator says
"this really means X" but presents no logical bridge between the content of the
sutta and "X." This is also true in the simile of the flood, where the
commentary says that "not striving" and "not standing still" is really about the
middle way.  Well what about what the Buddha actually says about striving and
standing still, is it is possible that there is a point to be derived directly
from what he says, without benefit of a totally different point being made by
the commentary?  I don't revere the commentators in the same way as the Buddha,
and someone would have to give me a damned good reason to substitute their
intellectual understanding for the words of the Buddha, a reason which does not
seem to be presented in most cases.  To me the "close" interpretation of the
"flood" sutta is that is not to define the "middle way" but to define "right
effort."  After all, the sutta is about how to get through the "flood" of
samsara successfully, and Buddha says not to strive and not to stand still.  
That is about effort in particular, not the middle way in general.  So we should
perhaps contemplate what the Buddha is actually saying about the type of effort
that is correct for the path.  The commentary takes this practical and specific
teaching of the Buddha and turns it into an intellectual exegesis about Dhamma
in general - the "middle way."  I don't respect this kind of lifting of the
authority of the Buddha and applying it to the agenda of the Buddhist
intellectuals who came after him.

Best,
Robert E.

= = = = = =

Best,
Robert

- - - - - - -



#116107 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:41 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: meditation. Was: wisdom and doing 	nilovg

Dear Rob E,
Op 8-jul-2011, om 22:27 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven:
> > Thus
> > right view or right understanding are necessary for both samatha and
> > vipassanaa.
>
> I would agree that right view/right understanding is essential for
> complete knowing and seeing; but I don't see the relationship as
> totally linear - that right understanding has to be complete before
> there can be any samatha or vipassana. I think they interact
> together and as seeing grows, understanding grows; as understanding
> grows, seeing grows; as samatha grows there is more space for
> seeing and knowing, etc. I see it as an interactive, synergistic
> process that grows by degrees.
-------
N: I do not follow here (my fault) the distinction between knowing
and seeing. Seeing, dassana in Pali, can have many meanings, as I
understand. What I meant to say: one cannot embark on samatha without
a great deal of understanding, such as, the difference between the
jhaanafactors vitakka and vicara, which is already very difficult.
For both samatha and vipassanaa understanding is necessary and this
has many degrees, beginning with intellectual understanding.
Also samatha has different degrees depending on the context. In the
development of insight there is concentration and calm. The aim is
more and more understanding of realities. The aim of samatha
developed to the stage of jhaana is being free from attachment to
sense pleasures.
>
>
> > -------
>
> R:Certainly not an easy matter at all, although some of the things
> that are described may take place naturally at different stages.
> Still, I think it is correct that at whatever level one is at, that
> samatha and mindfulness can develop and should develop to some
> extent together, rather than separately, that they can support each
> other, as calm allows seeing and seeing allows for more calm, and
> that the work with the breath in anapanasati is remarkably well
> suited for the development of both. Not easy, but still a very well-
> designed package for full development of the necessary factors.
---------
N: I would not stress so much the development of mindfulness, but
rather: what do we understand now? This is important.
Ignorance, avijjaa is the first link of the Dependent Origination. A-
vijjaa. Not knowing. The only remedy is: understanding, vijjaa or
pa~n~naa. So, one should all the time ask oneself: what is understood
now? Seeing arises now, is it understood as it is: a dhamma that
experiences visible object? Or do we still see people and things?
These are not visible object or colour.
--------
> N:  Jhaana should not
> > be taken for self.
>
> I think there is an implication there that if one sees jhana as a
> facilitator and object of insight that somehow one has thus taken
> jhana for self. I don't see the connection there; it is not direct,
> but more like an implication that somehow the utilization of jhana
> has to involve self-view, while the development of insight does
> not. But I think that the mindful practitioner will not do this.
--------
N: The aim of jhaana is temporary calm that suppresses clinging to
sense objects.
Only through insight the idea of self can be eliminated. Right from
the beginning one learns that there are only dhammas, that whatever
appears is dhamma. This is not learnt in samatha that has a different
aim. It is said in one of the suttas that jhaanacitta should not be
taken for self. Saariputta did not take jhaanacitta for self. what
about other persons who developed it?
--------
>
> > >
> > > R: I would not say my goal in meditation is to be as calm as
> > > possible. It is more to have some degree of calm but to just be
> > > present and see what arises, whatever it may be.
> > >
> > ------
> > N: But if what arises is not seen as only a conditioned dhamma there
> > may be an idea of self all the time.
> > ------
>
> R: That is why I agree that it is most important to develop
> mindfulness as well, along with samatha, ... On the other hand,
> without some understanding and development of samatha, it is very
> difficult to get the calm, concentration and focus to develop more
> steady mindfulness leading to greater vipassana.
--------
N: Only pa~n~naa stemming from listening, intellectual understanding
of the present reality leads to pa.tipatti, the practice. Not
concentration or focussing on objects. One can keep on focussing, but
what is the understanding?
There can be a beginning of awareness and understanding of the
characteristics appearing one at a time through the six doors. When
hardness appears through touch we can still think that it is a table
that is touched. We take the table for something that exists. But we
can learn that hardness is just an element, not a thing, and that it
does not stay.
--------
Nina.



#116108 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:24 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing 	nilovg

Dear Rob E,
Op 7-jul-2011, om 5:33 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven:
>
> When I am talking about meditation in this context I mean sitting
> meditation. To my understanding, such sitting is geared towards
> both samatha and vipassana, which grow naturally according to
> conditions and accumulations as always, and support each other, as
> demonstrated by the progression in the anapanasati sutta, which
> speaks of both mindfulness and pacification by turns.
>
-------
N I am inclined to distinguish samatha and vipassanaa, even when
developed one after the other or in pairs.
> -------
>
> R: In meditation it is more obvious, not less, that what is arising
> is just a momentary experience of physicality, feeling or thought.
>
-------
N: I do not see that while sitting in quiet naama and ruupa that
appear are more obvious.
It is not enough to see what is arising is just a momentary
experience of physicality, feeling or thought. Whatever appears has
to be understood as just a dhamma arising because of its own
conditions. Only naama or ruupa and they have different
characteristics. Naama experiences something and ruupa does not
experience anything. When there is sati or pa~n~naa why not "let" it
arise because of its own conditions, and no expectations. There is no
need to do something first like sitting, because they just arise when
it is the right time.

Nina.
>
>


#116109 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:31 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Asked to share, .... 	nilovg

Dear UziYah,
Op 9-jul-2011, om 17:36 heeft UziYaH het volgende geschreven:

> having a rather gifted IQ in science, I am rather concerned that
> Buddhaism is reluctant to consider the origins of 'Source',
-------
N: See them as different fields. The Dhamma deals with understanding
the realities in ourselves and around ourselves as to their nature of
impermanence, dukkha and non-self. This will lead to detachment and
the eradication of defilements. Science has another goal. There is no
conflict, but it cannot be compared to Buddhism.
-------
Nina.


#116110 	From: "ptaus1" <ptaus1@...>
Date: Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:26 pm
Subject: Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can le 	ptaus1

Hi Alex,

> A: Do you believe that concepts cannot be object of the mind?

pt: Considering we think almost all the time, concepts must be objects of the
mind at those times. I think ACMA also says that concepts are one of the six
possible objects at the mind-door.

> A: Is base of infinite space conceptual?
> Can it be an object of the mind?
> Is it kusala or akusala?
>
> Is base of nothingness conceptual?
> Can it be object of the mind?
> Is it kusala or akusala?

pt: I don't know really, haven't experienced these, and I think this is
described in ACMA but can't remember where exactly. I seem to recall you having
a few discussions on these topics with Nina and Sarah, perhaps revisit them for
detailed answers.

> A: IMHO, what is important is how concepts are used. Are they used to develop
wisdom or ignorance? Are concepts used for wholesome or unwholesome purposes?

pt: In a way I agree, in that considering the Dhamma conceptually is probably
the first step that is taken in the right direction, and this consideration
eventually leads or results in direct understanding (insight). Though I'm not
quite sure how concepts can be "used". Tricky business.

> A: These conceptual things can be used for insight. Not to mention really
relevant conceptual things like literal birth, aging, sickness, death, etc.

pt: Well, again, as long as conceptual consideration eventually leads to direct
understanding (insight), that's how things should be anyway. But, as far as I
understand the commentarial tradition, once insight of the vipassana nana
strength arises, it will have as object a dhamma, not concepts. I'm fine with
that explanation, and see it as not contradicting suttas. So, concepts can be
object of cittas with panna of various strengths, but only up to those instance
when the vipassana nanas occur.

Best wishes
pt



#116111 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:29 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dormant conditions, was:wisdom and doing 	nilovg

Op 10-jul-2011, om 8:14 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven:

>  But how can the citta "store" or "carry" something that is not
> active? A citta has no space, no substance, nowhere to hold, save
> or put anything.
------
R: Citta cannot store, it is not a storing consciousness. It has no
space. It is different from ruupa.
-------
> R: Memory according to science pops up from a certain sector of the
> brain, but citta theory does not believe in the brain. So where do
> dormant conditions live in a citta?
------
N: Memory or sa~n~naa accompanies each citta, it is different from
what we in conventional terms mean by memory connected with the brain.
I read what you wrote to Ken H and then I thought you had more
understanding of accumulated conditions:

R: What about all the conditioning that has come from the previous
citta and which continues on in its influence on the next citta, and
ad infinitum? In what sense does "nothing continue" on to the next
moment when the present citta carries all the influences and
accumulations of the previous citta, which is in fact what largely
causes it to be a "conditioned dhamma?"

I think you have understood now.

-------

Nina.



#116112 	From: "ptaus1" <ptaus1@...>
Date: Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:47 pm
Subject: Re: how to get into a kusala habit in the first place? 	ptaus1

Hi Alex,

> A: Regarding practice. It seems to me that there is a view that one should not
do anything unnatural to gain insight, etc etc.
>
> What about all the instructions found in suttas such as satipatthana where
Buddha tells to go to a secluded place and do this or that (ex: anapanasati, 32
body part contemplation, etc)?
>
> Some say that these are merely descriptions of natural habit of that person.
>
>
> Here is the question: And how did the habit start in the first place? It
obviously wasn't beginnings, and there was a time when it wasn't yet a habit. So
it seems to me that if one doesn't start developing a habit, there will never be
that habit. So development is required.

pt: Hm, what if we consider it this way - consider the arising of metta.
Sometimes it just arises on its own because someone was in trouble and you had a
chance to help. Both metta and you helping just sort of came out all on their
own, you didn't had to make any effort of the sort - "I'd better have metta
right now". So it arose on its own so to speak, and that arising in essence
already constitutes kusala development (that's speaking in basic terms - to
actually be kusala development, there'd have to be metta plus the understanding
of its value when it arises, I think).

But then, there are other situations where you see someone in trouble, and you
think - "I'd better have metta right now cause that'll be helpful to them", but
it just doesn't come up. Would this count as kusala development? I don't think
so.

And then there are those moments where you think - "I'd better have metta right
now cause that'll be helpful to them", and metta really does arise. Now here I
don't know really what's going on. The arising of metta (provided its really
metta) would count as kusala development. But the thinking - I don't know. Maybe
yes, maybe no. I can think of cases in my life when the thinking was somtimes
akusala, sometimes kusala. Nina would say - only panna can know. I have no idea
whether there was panna at the time or not, so my jusdgement whether it was
a/kusala thinking is probably faulty.

> A: Same thing with accumulation of kusala. It will be accumulated only if
kusala states occur. In order to get into kusala habit, one needs to start from
no habit and develop it until it becomes a habit (which perhaps becomes
effortless at some stage when the momentum is made).

pt: As mentioned above, I definitely think that kusala development happens when
the state arises on its own so to speak, so pretty much by the virtue of its
prior arising. Then there's the case where the arising can be prompted - say by
hearing a Dhamma talk, or by witnessing an example by someone else. But the jury
is out on whether I can prompt it myself. I think Jon once said that this is
possible for those whose faculties have developed to the stage of becoming
powers (5 powers and all those stock formulas). For us beginners though, I think
its safe to assume that most of the self-prompting is probably aksuala
masquerading as kusala.

Best wishes
pt



#116113 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:48 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can le 	nilovg

Dear Alex and pt,
>
> > A: Is base of infinite space conceptual?
>
-------
N: An object of samatha and it is a concept.
--------
>
> A:> Can it be an object of the mind?
>
--------
N: Jhaanacitta of the stage of aruupa jhaana has this as object.
-------
>
> A:  Is it kusala or akusala?
>
-------
N: Kusala. Jhaanacitta is kusala of a high degree.
-------
>
> >A: Is base of nothingness conceptual?
> > Can it be object of the mind?
> > Is it kusala or akusala?
>
--------
You asked more or less the same on Dec 2009, message #102945, I
looked under: navattaaramma.na, not so classifiable:
A: Where are base of infinite space, base of infinite consciousness,
  > > base of nothingness and base of neither perception nor non
  > > perception would be classified?
  > >
  > > In which element (dhatu) and which sphere (ayatana)?
  > > dhammadhatu and dhammayatana?
  > -------
  > N: We have to be careful here. No 2 and 4 are cittas (mano-
  > vi~n~naa.nadhaatu and manaayatana) , and 1 and 3 are 'not so
  > classifiable' , navattaaramma. na. Sarah wrote some posts about this.
...
S: I assume you're referring to the objects of these arupa jhana cittas?

As Nina says, the object of 2) and 4) are cittas.

To put it simply, as I understand, actually, the object of 2) is the
citta 1)
which experiences infinite space. Hence it's a reality.
The object of 4) is the citta 3) which experiences nothingness, again
the
reality.

The objects of 1) and 3), is a concept. In the case of 1), the
infinite space
refers to the nimitta of aakaasa ruupa, as I understand.
-------
>
>
> > A: IMHO, what is important is how concepts are used. Are they
> used to develop wisdom or ignorance? Are concepts used for
> wholesome or unwholesome purposes?
>
> pt: In a way I agree, in that considering the Dhamma conceptually
> is probably the first step that is taken in the right direction,
> and this consideration eventually leads or results in direct
> understanding (insight). Though I'm not quite sure how concepts can
> be "used". Tricky business.
>
> > A: These conceptual things can be used for insight. Not to
> mention really relevant conceptual things like literal birth,
> aging, sickness, death, etc.
>
> pt: Well, again, as long as conceptual consideration eventually
> leads to direct understanding (insight), that's how things should
> be anyway. But, as far as I understand the commentarial tradition,
> once insight of the vipassana nana strength arises, it will have as
> object a dhamma, not concepts. I'm fine with that explanation, and
> see it as not contradicting suttas. So, concepts can be object of
> cittas with panna of various strengths, but only up to those
> instance when the vipassana nanas occur.
>
---------
N: pt, also when satipa.t.thaana is only beginning, before insight
stages, naama and ruupa are the objects of sati and pa~n~naa. How
otherwise could insight be reached?
------
Nina.
>
>

#116114 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:55 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: how to get into a kusala habit in the first place? 	nilovg

Dear Alex,
Op 11-jul-2011, om 14:47 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven:

> Alex:  Here is the question: And how did the habit start in the
> first place? It obviously wasn't beginnings, and there was a time
> when it wasn't yet a habit. So it seems to me that if one doesn't
> start developing a habit, there will never be that habit. So
> development is required.
------
N: When was the first kusala habit, for example, when was the habit
of mettaa formed?
These questions are of the same category as: when was the first
ignorance? When was the first glimmer of understanding and how did it
come about? These questions cannot be answered since they are of a
speculative nature.
Why not develop kusala and understanding from now on? In this way it
can be accumulated from moment to moment. There is only the present
moment as Ken H says.
-----
Nina.


#116115 	From: "ptaus1" <ptaus1@...>
Date: Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:06 pm
Subject: Re: part 1 to Ken O - was: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening 	ptaus1

Hi RobE,

> RE: I think I've gotten in the habit of coming in here after you to
recomplicate things, so I will continue the pattern...:

pt: Excellent tradition the four of us got going here. As long as it doesn't
become adherence to rites and rituals that is, cause KenH will skin us alive.

> RE: What you say is good and helpful as far as experience is concerned, but it
does not settle the question of what is the actual reality that exists in truth.
The answer to that question would likely be that there really *are* no trees or
cars, according to Ken H.  This is the realization I think that he would like
the rest of us to wake up to.  The things of this world actually aren't there. 
It's just a temporary game of pretend while we wait for insight to develop.  So
in that view, if I am correct, Ken H. would say that it doesn't really matter if
you crash into a tree and die, except for the fact that you are not yet
enlightened and may thus be reborn as a frog.  That would hamper your progress
on the path, so you navigate the concepts in order to keep the vehicle of the
current Dhamma mind intact.

pt: Hm, those are questions for KenH I guess. Imo, if there really are only six
worlds, then Buddhism is concerned only with what can be directly experienced,
and that's what leads out of samsara. On that premise, there seem to be only two
ways in which "reality in truth" can be experienced - direct (insight) and
conceptual. Out of those two, only direct is the way out of samsara, while
conceptual may or may not help to point in the direction of the direct one. As
for whether there really are/n't trees and cars somewhere *out there*
independent of my six worlds, this issue seems irrelevant to me because I don't
have any other way to find out about it other than insight or thinking.

> RE: Another question is, taking your scenario which makes a lot of sense, what
happens if you have more than one insight moment in a row and you happen to be
"driving?"  If you stayed in the perception of "mere arising dhammas" you would
in fact crash into the tree and die, would you not?  So does one stick with the
insight experience at that point and gamble conventional death vs.
enlightenment, or does one say "later" for the insight experience and save the
conceptual body, car and tree?

pt: The big assumption being that one can actually decide to "stick with the
insight experience" or not. From experience, I don't think that's possible, plus
there's the sticky issue of anatta and all that. Besides, all these are
situations, whereas I was just trying to number the the mechanisms - there's
insight (cittas having a dhamma as object) and there's thinking (cittas having
concepts as object). I'm not sure there's a third option. Both occur, though in
different mind-door processes.

Best wishes
pt



#116116 	From: "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:56 pm
Subject: concepts can lead to awakening 	truth_aerator
Online Now Send IM
Send Email Send Email
  	

Hello Pt, all,


>pt:In a way I agree, in that considering the Dhamma conceptually >is >probably
the first step that is taken in the right direction, and >this consideration
eventually leads or results in direct >understanding (insight). Though I'm not
quite sure how concepts can >be "used". Tricky business.

As I understand the Dhamma, the main thing is to extinguish all craving (and by
extension its causes and what it leads to).

Whether one does this by concepts or "ultimates", is a personal matter. Whatever
works. I remember the story of someone who was cleaning cloth and repeating some
mantra, and became an Arahant. The results is what matters.


It tells that contemplation of aging, illness, death, separation from loved
things, ownership of kamma can develop the path

==================================================================
"There are these five facts that one should reflect on often, whether one is a
woman or a man, lay or ordained. Which five?

"'I am subject to aging, have not gone beyond aging.' This is the first fact
that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or
ordained.

"'I am subject to illness, have not gone beyond illness.' ...

"'I am subject to death, have not gone beyond death.' ...

"'I will grow different, separate from all that is dear and appealing to me.'
...

"'I am the owner of my actions,[1] heir to my actions, born of my actions,
related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do,
for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir.' ...

"These are the five facts that one should reflect on often, whether one is a
woman or a man, lay or ordained.
...
"Now, a disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'I am not the only one
subject to aging, who has not gone beyond aging. To the extent that there are
beings � past and future, passing away and re-arising � all beings are subject
to aging, have not gone beyond aging.' When he/she often reflects on this, the
[factors of the] path take birth. He/she sticks with that path, develops it,
cultivates it. As he/she sticks with that path, develops it and cultivates it,
the fetters are abandoned, the obsessions destroyed.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.057.than.html
==================================================================


With best wishes,
Alex



#116117 	From: "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:13 am
Subject: Re: how to get into a kusala habit in the first place? 	truth_aerator
Online Now Send IM
Send Email Send Email
  	

Hello Pt, all,

>===============================================================
>&#1040;: Here is the question: And how did the habit start in the first >place?
It obviously wasn't beginnings, and there was a time when it >wasn't yet a
habit. So it seems to me that if one doesn't start >developing a habit, there
will never be that habit. So development >is required.
>================================================================
>pt: Hm, what if we consider it this way - consider the arising of >metta.
Sometimes it just arises on its own because someone was in >trouble and you had
a chance to help.
>================================================================

And why did it spontaneous arise now? Because of deliberate prior development.
This is also the idea behind meditation or even any practice. At first it may
require a lot of "deliberate" effort, but then it becomes automatic and arise
more and more often even without having to think.  Ex: like practicing
techniques in martial arts. At first one has to practice a lot, do it in slow
motion, be very attentive and deliberate. Eventually one can do those complex
moves without any thinking (which would be a hindrance in sparring, fight, etc).
Their spontaneity didn't arise uncaused. Their cause was prior development. 
Same with driving. At first you had to practice driving, in very safe
conditions, being totally focused on driving. Years later one can easily drive
in busy streets while talking on a cellphone, texting and eating a sandwich...
The driving actions arise spontaneously and without you have to think. All this
due to prior effort at developing a skill.

Same is here.

At first one had to practice metta (or something else). Eventually one gets
better and better and it will arise more often.


With metta,
Alex



#116118 	From: Howard Nylander <uziyah@...>
Date: Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:30 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello 	uziyah

Namaste' Brother Robert,
� 
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, answering my question, thus allowing me a
platform to share my thoughts.

� 
Recapulating, my question was, "... my questions remains, is not the quest to
obtain an end, such as reaching the other shore?"

� 
To which you replied,
� 
"...I would say that definitely there is a goal of "reaching the other shore,"
but on the other hand, the reality of that other shore is right here. Therefore
in a sense the other shore is just eliminating whatever ignorance/illusion we
have about what our reality actually is."
� 
Yes. I found this thought in "The Word of Buddha", translated by Nyantiloka, pg.
55, which reads in part,

� 
"What, now, is the effort to Overcome? There the disciple rouses his will to
overcome the evil, unwholesome things that have already arisen; and he makes
effort, stirs up his energy, exerts his mind and strives."

� 
My thoughts are that lessor and primitive souls accumulate karma which is then
expunged in greater soul development, identified by some schools of
understanding as 'old souls'. While I feel the masses have yet to achieve this
end, or the 'alpha' of potential, I also feel there are an 'elect few' who have
reached, their 'omega' of completion, which I suspect are those who have
achieved 'nirvana' according to the teachings of Master Gautama. Perhaps these
are the ones who have achieved the mindset of Sri Krishna, Christ and Buddha. I
enjoyed your thought that this can happen in the physical realms of duality, in
the eternal moment of now.

� 
Even though my Cayce Past Life Report suggests this possibility for me in this
lifetime, I know I am not there yet, as in discovering something of great value
has been stolen from me a few days ago, I became very angry, rather than
blessing the thief. I have yet to reach the other shore,� although I� feel it
might be near.

� 
I enjoyed your thoughts of,
� 
"They may be the same, or they may be different high states on the path to full
realization." " But one thing is sure - that these spiritual paths have
different languages and techniques. I wonder whether one can try to coordinate
those with each other, or if it is better to see each one in its own right."
� 
I feel this is determined by the intent of the seeker. If one seeks from ego,
the lack of love, then a different reality will be gained than one seeking from
humility and love. In that Cayce also suggests my goal, in this life, would be
to collate Eastern wisdom with Western philosophy, I tend to find the basis of
all religions and philosophies to speak of the same universal Truth, separated
only by the ego of self and the enlightenment of higher 'Self' that basks in the
Cosmic equilibrium of love. I find this evident in the fact that the 'masses'
can know the Bible, cover to cover and yet seek to kill those opposed to their
egoic faith, rather than understanding the mystical words of Master Teacher
Jesus who plainly taught, "Resist not the evil doer", a thought I understand
also shared by Master Gautama.
� 
I feel my thoughts are validated in your sharing of,
� 
"That state of total freedom and selfless wisdom is called nibbana or nirvana in
Buddhism, although technically some here may consider it the "object" of that
state, rather than a state itself."
� 
Yes! My thoughts are that the quest of 'old souls' is to achieve the very
Christmindedness of Jesus, the 'mind' of Sri Krishna and the Buddhic 'mind' of
Master Gautama, as they are One, and not the knowledge of this or that, and the
egoic mindset of fundamentalist religionists bound by their doctrines. Good
call.

� 
Thank you for taking the time to share your wise insights. I will save your post
for further evaluation.

� 
Shared in the Metta of Loving Kindness and Compassion, .... howard
　
　



#116119 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:25 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello 	upasaka_howard

Hi, Howard N -

In a message dated 7/11/2011 10:30:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
uziyah@... writes:

Namaste'  Brother Robert,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, answering my  question, thus allowing
me a
platform to share my thoughts.


Recapulating, my question was, "... my questions remains, is  not the quest
to
obtain an end, such as reaching the other shore?"


To which you replied,

"...I would say that  definitely there is a goal of "reaching the other
shore,"
but on the other  hand, the reality of that other shore is right here.
Therefore
in a sense  the other shore is just eliminating whatever ignorance/illusion
we
have  about what our reality actually is."

Yes. I found this thought in  "The Word of Buddha", translated by
Nyantiloka, pg.
55, which reads in  part,


"What, now, is the effort to Overcome? There the  disciple rouses his will
to
overcome the evil, unwholesome things that  have already arisen; and he
makes
effort, stirs up his energy, exerts his  mind and strives."


My thoughts are that lessor and primitive  souls accumulate karma which is
then
expunged in greater soul development,  identified by some schools of
understanding as 'old  souls'.
------------------------------------------------
HCW:
     Howard, inasmuch as you are here to learn about the  Buddhadhamma, I
will try to reply along those lines. In Buddhism, one doesn't  speak of "soul"
but of "mind". The Buddha defined mind as being  a collection of
operations, specifically affective feeling (vedana),  perception/recognition
(sa~n~na), intention or volition (cetana), mental  contact (phassa),  and
attention
(manasikara), all of which are  mere passing, impersonal activities, and
neither self nor  soul.
-------------------------------------------------

While I  feel the masses have yet to achieve this
end, or the 'alpha' of potential,  I also feel there are an 'elect few' who
have
reached, their 'omega' of  completion, which I suspect are those who have
achieved 'nirvana'  according to the teachings of Master Gautama. Perhaps
these
are the ones  who have achieved the mindset of Sri Krishna, Christ and
Buddha. I
enjoyed  your thought that this can happen in the physical realms of
duality, in
the eternal moment of now.
-------------------------------------------------
HCW:
     Buddhists do not lump these together.
---------------------------------------

Even though my Cayce Past Life Report suggests  this possibility for me in
this
lifetime, I know I am not there yet, as in  discovering something of great
value
has been stolen from me a few days  ago, I became very angry, rather than
blessing the thief. I have yet to  reach the other shore, although I feel
it
might be near.


I enjoyed your thoughts of,

"They may be the  same, or they may be different high states on the path to
full
realization." " But one thing is sure - that these spiritual paths have
different languages and techniques. I wonder whether one can try to
coordinate
those with each other, or if it is better to see each one in  its own
right."

I feel this is determined by the intent of the  seeker. If one seeks from
ego,
the lack of love, then a different reality  will be gained than one seeking
from
humility and love. In that Cayce also  suggests my goal, in this life,
would be
to collate Eastern wisdom with  Western philosophy, I tend to find the
basis of
all religions and  philosophies to speak of the same universal Truth,
separated
only by the  ego of self and the enlightenment of higher 'Self' that basks
in the
Cosmic equilibrium of love. I find this evident in the fact that the
'masses'
can know the Bible, cover to cover and yet seek to kill those  opposed to
their
egoic faith, rather than understanding the mystical words  of Master
Teacher
Jesus who plainly taught, "Resist not the evil doer", a  thought I
understand
also shared by Master Gautama.

I feel my  thoughts are validated in your sharing of,

"That state of total  freedom and selfless wisdom is called nibbana or
nirvana in
Buddhism,  although technically some here may consider it the "object" of
that
state,  rather than a state itself."

Yes! My thoughts are that the quest  of 'old souls' is to achieve the very
Christmindedness of Jesus, the  'mind' of Sri Krishna and the Buddhic
'mind' of
Master Gautama, as they  are One, and not the knowledge of this or that,
and the
egoic mindset of  fundamentalist religionists bound by their doctrines.
Good
call.


Thank you for taking the time to share your wise insights. I  will save
your post
for further evaluation.


Shared in  the Metta of Loving Kindness and Compassion, .... howard
　
========================
With metta,
Howard W


Seamless Interdependence

/A change in  anything is a change in  everything/

(Anonymous)

#116120 	From: Howard Nylander <uziyah@...>
Date: Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:40 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello 	uziyah

Namaste' Howard W.,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

In Metta, .... howard

________________________________
From: "upasaka@..." <upasaka@...>
To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, July 11, 2011 11:25:45 AM
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello

� 
Hi, Howard N -

In a message dated 7/11/2011 10:30:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
uziyah@... writes:

Namaste' Brother Robert,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, answering my question, thus allowing
me a
platform to share my thoughts.

Recapulating, my question was, "... my questions remains, is not the quest
to
obtain an end, such as reaching the other shore?"

To which you replied,

"...I would say that definitely there is a goal of "reaching the other
shore,"
but on the other hand, the reality of that other shore is right here.
Therefore
in a sense the other shore is just eliminating whatever ignorance/illusion
we
have about what our reality actually is."

Yes. I found this thought in "The Word of Buddha", translated by
Nyantiloka, pg.
55, which reads in part,

"What, now, is the effort to Overcome? There the disciple rouses his will
to
overcome the evil, unwholesome things that have already arisen; and he
makes
effort, stirs up his energy, exerts his mind and strives."

My thoughts are that lessor and primitive souls accumulate karma which is
then
expunged in greater soul development, identified by some schools of
understanding as 'old souls'.
------------------------------------------------
HCW:
Howard, inasmuch as you are here to learn about the Buddhadhamma, I
will try to reply along those lines. In Buddhism, one doesn't speak of "soul"
but of "mind". The Buddha defined mind as being a collection of
operations, specifically affective feeling (vedana), perception/recognition
(sa~n~na), intention or volition (cetana), mental contact (phassa), and
attention

(manasikara), all of which are mere passing, impersonal activities, and
neither self nor soul.
-------------------------------------------------

While I feel the masses have yet to achieve this
end, or the 'alpha' of potential, I also feel there are an 'elect few' who
have
reached, their 'omega' of completion, which I suspect are those who have
achieved 'nirvana' according to the teachings of Master Gautama. Perhaps
these
are the ones who have achieved the mindset of Sri Krishna, Christ and
Buddha. I
enjoyed your thought that this can happen in the physical realms of
duality, in
the eternal moment of now.
-------------------------------------------------
HCW:
Buddhists do not lump these together.
---------------------------------------

Even though my Cayce Past Life Report suggests this possibility for me in
this
lifetime, I know I am not there yet, as in discovering something of great
value
has been stolen from me a few days ago, I became very angry, rather than
blessing the thief. I have yet to reach the other shore, although I feel
it
might be near.

I enjoyed your thoughts of,

"They may be the same, or they may be different high states on the path to
full
realization." " But one thing is sure - that these spiritual paths have
different languages and techniques. I wonder whether one can try to
coordinate
those with each other, or if it is better to see each one in its own
right."

I feel this is determined by the intent of the seeker. If one seeks from
ego,
the lack of love, then a different reality will be gained than one seeking
from
humility and love. In that Cayce also suggests my goal, in this life,
would be
to collate Eastern wisdom with Western philosophy, I tend to find the
basis of
all religions and philosophies to speak of the same universal Truth,
separated
only by the ego of self and the enlightenment of higher 'Self' that basks
in the
Cosmic equilibrium of love. I find this evident in the fact that the
'masses'
can know the Bible, cover to cover and yet seek to kill those opposed to
their
egoic faith, rather than understanding the mystical words of Master
Teacher
Jesus who plainly taught, "Resist not the evil doer", a thought I
understand
also shared by Master Gautama.

I feel my thoughts are validated in your sharing of,

"That state of total freedom and selfless wisdom is called nibbana or
nirvana in
Buddhism, although technically some here may consider it the "object" of
that
state, rather than a state itself."

Yes! My thoughts are that the quest of 'old souls' is to achieve the very
Christmindedness of Jesus, the 'mind' of Sri Krishna and the Buddhic
'mind' of
Master Gautama, as they are One, and not the knowledge of this or that,
and the
egoic mindset of fundamentalist religionists bound by their doctrines.
Good
call.

Thank you for taking the time to share your wise insights. I will save
your post
for further evaluation.

Shared in the Metta of Loving Kindness and Compassion, .... howard
　
========================
With metta,
Howard W


Seamless Interdependence

/A change in anything is a change in everything/

(Anonymous)



#116121 	From: Howard Nylander <uziyah@...>
Date: Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:41 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello 	uziyah

Ooops, forgot to trim my post. My bad. .... howard



#116122 	From: "connie" <nichicon@...>
Date: Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:28 am
Subject: Sangiitisutta 8.8 	nichiconn

dear friends,
as this sutta is rather long, the Pali, which begins at CSCD 337, is not being
copied here and only Walshe's translation is being given.

Walshe
DN.33.3.1(7) 'Eight kinds of rebirth due to generosity: Here, someone gives an
ascetic or Brahmin food, drink, clothes, transport (yaana'm), garlands, perfumes
and ointments, sleeping accommodation, a dwelling, or lights, and he hopes to
receive a return for his gifts. He sees a rich Khattiya or Brahmin or
householder living in full enjoyment of the pleasures of the five senses, and he
thinks: "If only when I die I may be reborn as one of these rich people!" He
sets his heart on this thought, fixes it and develops it (bhaaveti). *1116 And
this thought, being launched (vimutta'm) at such a low level (hiine), and not
developed to a higher level (uttari'm abhaavita'm), leads to rebirth right
there. [iii 259]  But I say this of a moral person, not of an immoral one. The
mental aspiration of a moral person is effective through its purity. *1117 Or
(b) he gives such gifts and, having heard that the devas in the realm of the
Four Great Kings live long, are good-looking and lead a happy life, he thinks:
"If only I could be reborn there!" Or he similarly aspires to rebirth in the
heavens of (c) the Thirty-Three Gods, (d) the Yaama devas, (e) the Tusita devas,
(f) the Nimmaanarati devas, (g) the Paranimmita-vasavatti devas. And this
thought leads to rebirth right there ... The mental aspiration of a moral person
is effictive through its purity. Or (h) he similarly aspires to rebirth in the
world of Brahmaa ... But [iii 260] I say this of a moral person, not of an
immoral one, one freed from passion (viitaraagassa), not one still swayed by
passion. *1118 The mental aspiration of [such] a moral person is effective
through liberation from passion.

...to be continued,
connie



#116123 	From: Howard Nylander <uziyah@...>
Date: Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:12 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello 	uziyah

Namaste Howard W.,

I am beginning to understand. To paraphrase the thoughts of an other teacher,
while Master Gautama does not speak of 'souls', the 'idea' of soul is
encapsulated in the idea of separate self or even separate soul overpowered by
the Knowledge and that there is no separation.   Thought creates the idea of
separate Atman or Soul.  The soul, or separate identity, is just used as a
process of learning.. this imaginary separation is used as a mirror to witness
Self and non-self..  When the ego is completely dissolved into Pure Awareness or
even Pure Consciousness, the idea of separation called soul is dissolved into
the Reality of Divine Consciousness. 

Perhaps that of what we speak is yet another issue of semantics according to the
customs of our experience.  Thank you for sharing.

In the Spirit of Metta, .... howard



#116124 	From: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
Date: Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:45 am
Subject: Re: Hello 	moellerdieter

Namaste Howard,


I glad to see you quoting from the recommended book.
You may also be interested in Nyanatiloka's Dictionary of Buddhism , which
indeed is a kind of manual and still today
probably one of the most used references besides canonical sources.  Easy (re)
search  , see http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm

But of course best to discover yourself your favorite teaching of the Buddha .
Quite a lot of the 45 volume of the Tipitaka is translated and available
to  be read , for example  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/index.html  
..take your time and browse  ;-)

Would be interesting to learn at a later stage how the School of the Elders,
closest to the origin,   appeals to you..

with Metta Dieter




#116125 	From: Lukas <szmicio@...>
Date: Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:01 am
Subject: ditthi and moha, differences? 	szmicio

Dear friends,
What's a difference between ditthi and moha? I'am confused. micha ditthi is
avijja? Is it moha?
Lukas

#116126 	From: "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:42 am
Subject: Re: ditthi and moha, differences? 	truth_aerator

Dear Lukas,

Avijja (moha) is ignoring 4NT.
Views are aspect of clinging (upadana).

Avijja is more central than ditthi. First one eliminates ditthi at the stage of
sotapanna. Avijja on the other hand is fully eliminated only by an Arahant. So
although related, they are not identical, .

With metta,

Alex



#116127 	From: "aubecolette" <aubecolette@...>
Date: Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:33 am
Subject: MASSIVE DHUKKA 	aubecolette

Group,

I recently tried to change my password, on my email, "ksheri3@...". I was
told that it did not work, "try again", but this went on for 30 minutes and
countless times. I am now locked out of my email and have no ability to access
it. I've tried to speak with "yahoo" but they are just as impossible to get to
by having to go through the Chicago Public Library computer system of being
monitored and controlled.

Please email at "aubecolette@..." if you need to until I can get this
problem that yahoo and Chicago has. It involves MURDER so, allow me to be
PARANOID. At least I found the DSG and am seen foundering in the ocean with all
the sharks and corruption.

toodles,
colette



#116128 	From: "ptaus1" <ptaus1@...>
Date: Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:55 am
Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening 	ptaus1

Hi Alex,

> A: As I understand the Dhamma, the main thing is to extinguish all craving
(and by extension its causes and what it leads to).
>
> Whether one does this by concepts or "ultimates", is a personal matter.
Whatever works. I remember the story of someone who was cleaning cloth and
repeating some mantra, and became an Arahant. The results is what matters.
>
>
> It tells that contemplation of aging, illness, death, separation from loved
things, ownership of kamma can develop the path
>
> ===============================================================

> "There are these five facts that one should reflect on often, whether one is a
woman or a man, lay or ordained. Which five?
>
> "'I am subject to aging, have not gone beyond aging.' This is the first fact
that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or
ordained.

pt: None of the above is under dispute, because the above conceptual
contemplation mentioned in the sutta automatically assumes that the
contemplation occurs on the back of kusala cittas. Hence it leads to good
results.

From experience though, such contemplation doesn't always come on the back of
kusala cittas. For me in fact its mostly akusala. E.g. when I contemplate my
aging, health, etc, its mostly with dosa, lot of fear, etc.

So when we are warned here on dsg about dangers of "deliberate" contemplation,
meditation, etc, it's not about dismissing the conceptual completely or trying
to deny what's said in the sutta, but rather it's about alerting us to the
possibility that the contemplation is occuring with akusala cittas, while we
fool ourselves thinking it must be kusala because I'm repeating what's said in
the sutta.

Whether there's kusala or akusala at any given time, only you can know that, but
I do appreciate the reminders about the akusala here, as it encourages looking
into what's really going on in the present and not fooling myself.

Best wishes
pt



#116129 	From: Howard Nylander <uziyah@...>
Date: Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:08 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello 	uziyah

Namaste' Dieter,

Thank you for allowing me to add great treasures to my library. I have saved
same to my 'favorites' and will download and study them as I can. You are such a
blessing!

Segen und Friede, .... howard



#116130 	From: "ptaus1" <ptaus1@...>
Date: Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:15 am
Subject: Re: how to get into a kusala habit in the first place? 	ptaus1

Hi Alex,

> A: And why did it spontaneous arise now? Because of deliberate prior
development. This is also the idea behind meditation or even any practice. At
first it may require a lot of "deliberate" effort, but then it becomes automatic
and arise more and more often even without having to think.  Ex: like practicing
techniques in martial arts. At first one has to practice a lot, do it in slow
motion, be very attentive and deliberate. Eventually one can do those complex
moves without any thinking (which would be a hindrance in sparring, fight, etc).
Their spontaneity didn't arise uncaused. Their cause was prior development. 
Same with driving. At first you had to practice driving, in very safe
conditions, being totally focused on driving. Years later one can easily drive
in busy streets while talking on a cellphone, texting and eating a sandwich...
The driving actions arise spontaneously and without you have to think. All this
due to prior effort at developing a skill.
>
> Same is here.
>
> At first one had to practice metta (or something else). Eventually one gets
better and better and it will arise more

pt: We've discussed this once before, and as before, I still disagree with the
above . Nina already warned us about the dangers of contemplating the first
cause. As for how good habits develop, my understanding in brief is as follows:

1. Good deeds are committed.
2. As a result of that good kamma, one gets the chance to hear the Dhamma.
3. As a result of that, one gets to realize/appreciate the value of good habits
UPON thier arising. That's the actual development. Obviously, if a good habit is
not arising, one cannot appreciate its value at the time, even though I can
think about it and try to have it deliberately - all that still doesn't
guarantee taht it's the good habit that's arising.
Up to this point, I think good habits are prompted to arise mostly through
virtue of past arising, hearing the Dhamma, and seeing an example from someone
else. All other deliberate self-prompting is 99% akusala (from experience).
4. After a long long time, faculties have developed to such an extent that one
can resolve to have such and such arise (so self-prompt) and to actually be
kusala.

Best wishes
pt



#116131 	From: A T <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:38 am
Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening 	truth_aerator

Hello Pt, all,

>pt: None of the above is under dispute, because the above >conceptual
>contemplation mentioned in the sutta automatically >assumes that the
>contemplation occurs on the back of kusala cittas. >Hence it leads to >good
results.
>
>From experience though, such contemplation doesn't always come on >the >back of
kusala cittas. For me in fact its mostly akusala. E.g. >when I >contemplate my
aging, health, etc, its mostly with dosa, lot >of fear, >etc.
>===================================

And I do not dispute that it is possible to make mistakes in meditation. In fact
it is almost guaranteed that mistakes will be made at first. What is important
is to have lots of mindfulness and wisdom to be able to spot and correct them.
Making mistakes should not be an excuse not to do wholesome things.

If one doesn't practice, one will not perfect the skill.  If one refuses to do
something until one is perfect, then one will simply never start because one
cannot become perfect without practice.

So one *has* to start somewhere. Habit just doesn't appear out of thin air. At
first there is no habit. As one practices more and more, these actions
accumulate and eventually become habits. Prompted cittas eventually become a
spontaneous habit. We all start with ignorance. It doesn't mean that we need to
wait for it to cease before undertaking the path. It is like putting a cart in
front of the horse. It doesn't work.


It is also my idea that if one doesn't actively do kusala, then one does akusala
(which is generally a much bigger habit). To over ride akusala, a stronger
kusala habit is required.

If we let things flow "naturally", then like water, it will naturally flow
downwards the path of least resistance. And the more downwards it flows, the
more downward momentum it builds... And so this life may end up like countless
other previous lives in which one waited for better accumulations in the future
rather than actually making them then...
I am really not sure that things will change for the better if one doesn't do
hard things now to stop the downward momentum until it becomes too strong.
IMHO.


With metta,

Alex



#116132 	From: "philip" <philco777@...>
Date: Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:26 pm
Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening 	philofillet

Hi Pt

I always enjoy reading your posts, you always seem to be a rare person who is
able to come close to bridging tge gulfs that exist at Dsg.

    Surprised to hear, though, that for you the daily recollections in question
are spurces mostly of dosa. Doesn't the 5th recollection on ownership of kamma
inspire hope? I suppose if one accepted that the kamma created in this lifetime
is no more rgan a drop of kamma  in the immeasurable sea of past life kamma
there would  be not much hope involved but I don't think rhe Buddha teaches
that, does he? I will be wring in a few days about a week spent with my
violently demented mother and soob-to-be-dying father and while there was a lot
of dosa, the 5rh recollection gave hope at least that by living in the Dhamma
diligently the mind will at least develop beyond the kind of stayw my morher has
been reduced. Through our behaviour un body, speech and mind (i.e our kamma) rhe
mind develops tendencies that will not disappear, I find that encouraging and I
personally feel it is tge poinr of tge daily recollections. I can see what my
behaviour is becoming, what my tendencies of kammacrwation are becoming, and
there is hope.
    I also think the recollections can be rooted in lobha  (wanting a way to deal
wiaely with ageing etc.) and still be very effective. We kniw how rare moments
of pure kysala are. Would the Buddha urge rhese recollections in all-inclusive
terms used nowhere else in the suttanta as far as I know (men, women etc) if
they were only to be made in those extremely rare moments of kusala?

     Metta&#12289;

     phil


> pt: None of the above is under dispute, because the above conceptual
contemplation mentioned in the sutta automatically assumes that the
contemplation occurs on the back of kusala cittas. Hence it leads to good
results.
>
> From experience though, such contemplation doesn't always come on the back of
kusala cittas. For me in fact its mostly akusala. E.g. when I contemplate my
aging, health, etc, its mostly with dosa, lot of fear, etc.
>
> So when we are warned here on dsg about dangers of "deliberate" contemplation,
meditation, etc, it's not about dismissing the conceptual completely or trying
to deny what's said in the sutta, but rather it's about alerting us to the
possibility that the contemplation is occuring with akusala cittas, while we
fool ourselves thinking it must be kusala because I'm repeating what's said in
the sutta.
>
> Whether there's kusala or akusala at any given time, only you can know that,
but I do appreciate the reminders about the akusala here, as it encourages
looking into what's really going on in the present and not fooling myself.
>
> Best wishes
> pt
>



#116133 	From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" <bhikkhu3@...>
Date: Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:33 am
Subject: Sincere Motivation! 	bhikkhu5

Friends:
Sincere Motivation, Dedication and Determination!
Any well motivated
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_is_Right_Motivation.htm>  Buddhist
inclined for non-greed sees the danger in all desire...
Any well motivated
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_is_Right_Motivation.htm>  Buddhist
inclined for non-hate recognizes the error in all anger.
Any well motivated
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_is_Right_Motivation.htm>  Buddhist
inclined for understanding knows the block in ignorance.
Any well motivated
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_is_Right_Motivation.htm>  Buddhist
inclined for renunciation feels the miseries of lay life.
Any well motivated
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_is_Right_Motivation.htm>  Buddhist
inclined for seclusion perceives the stress of society.
Any well motivated
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_is_Right_Motivation.htm>  Buddhist
inclined for release comprehends the panic in clinging.
Any well motivated
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_is_Right_Motivation.htm>  Buddhist
inclined for awakening is dedicated to ending rebirth!
The degree of whole-hearted sincerity, dedication and resolute determination
does
indeed determine the remaining time in Samsara
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Samsara.htm>  before finally reaching
Nibb�na <http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/The_Signless_Nibbana.htm> ...


<...>
Friendship is the Greatest!
  <http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Bhikkhu_Samahita> Bhikkhu
Sam�hita _/\_ *
<...>



#116134 	From: "Ken H" <kenhowardau@yahoo.com.au>
Date: Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:45 pm
Subject: Re: Hello 	kenhowardau

Hi Robert E,

--------
<. . .>
>> KH: There is only one moment of consciousness at a time, and when that
consciousness falls away nothing continues on to the next moment. Every moment
of consciousness contains our birth, life and death. Any other existence is an
illusion.
>>

> RE: What about all the conditioning that has come from the previous citta and
which continues on in its influence on the next citta, and ad infinitum?  In
what sense does "nothing continue" on to the next moment when the present citta
carries all the influences and accumulations of the previous citta, which is in
fact what largely causes it to be a "conditioned dhamma?"
--------

KH: If that is what you call "continuing on" then I suppose there's no harm in
it. I was thinking of a more concrete "continuing on" of the kind that is denied
by the Dhamma. Mentality, for example, does not last for more than one moment of
nama. Physicality does not last for more than one moment of rupa. That sort of
thing!  :-).

Ken H



#116135 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:02 pm
Subject: [dsg] Sangiitisutta 8.7 and commentary. 	nilovg

Dear friends,
sutta 7.


Walshe:

DN.33.3.1(7) 'Eight kinds of rebirth due to generosity: Here, someone
gives an ascetic or Brahmin food, .... "If only when I die I may be
reborn as one of these rich people!" He sets his heart on this
thought, fixes it and develops it (bhaaveti).  And this thought,
being launched (vimutta'm) at such a low level (hiine), and not
developed to a higher level (uttari'm abhaavita'm), leads to rebirth
right there. ... Or (b) he gives such gifts and, having heard that
the devas in the realm of the Four Great Kings ... Or he similarly
aspires to rebirth in the heavens of (c) the Thirty-Three Gods, (d)
the Yaama devas, (e) the Tusita devas, (f) the Nimmaanarati devas,
(g) the Paranimmita-vasavatti devas. And this thought leads to
rebirth right there ...  Or (h) he similarly aspires to rebirth in
the world of Brahmaa ... But [iii 260] I say this of a moral person,
not of an immoral one, one freed from passion (viitaraagassa), not
one still swayed by passion.  The mental aspiration of [such] a moral
person is effective through liberation from passion.

-------

N: As to rebirth due to daana, the commentary adds: conditioned by
daana (daanapaccaya).

The tiika: by the performing of the meritorious action of daana
(daanamayapu~n~nassa) that has been accumulated (upacitattaa). There
is rebirth among men and devas.

As to fixing his mind on this thought (citta.m dahati), and
resolving, these are synonyms, the co. states.

As to the words, his mind is being launched (vimutta) at such a low
level, these are the five strands of sense pleasures (hiinesu
pa~ncakaamagu.nesu).

The Tiika explains vimutta (literally: freed) as adhimutta: inclined to.

His mind is not developed to a higher level, namely, he does not
develop it for the sake of the path and fruit (maggaphalatthaaya).

Co: "As to the words, one freed from passion, this is said of someone
who has got rid of the passions (viitaraagassa), someone who has
eradicated them by the Path-consciousness (maggena
samucchinnaraagassa) or someone who has suppressed them by jhaana
attainment (samaapattiyaa vikkhambhitaraagassa). Giving alone cannot
condition rebirth in the brahma worlds. But generosity is an
adornment of the citta that applies itself to calm and insight. In
this way the citta becomes wieldy (muducitta, soft or gentle) and,
after the divine abidings have been cultivated, there can be rebirth
in the brahma worlds."

--------

N: The development of generosity can have different results depending
on the citta that develops it. Someone may aspire to have a happy
rebirth, such as birth as a person who is rich or of a high rank, or
a deva so that he can enjoy sense pleasures. This can be a result of
daana, but only if the citta is pure, as the sutta states. The sutta
reminds us that life with sense pleasures is of a low level. Rebirth
in the brahma planes is of a higher level, it is the result of
jhaanacitta.

Generosity can be an adornment of the mind when it goes together with
calm and insight. It is a perfection when it is associated with
insight that is developed to reach enlightenment. In that case one
does not want any gain for oneself, but one considers it a means to
have less clinging. When it is a 'perfection' it supports pa~n~naa
that is developed to eradicate all defilements.

*********

Nina.



#116136 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:48 pm
Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: part 1 to Ken O - 	nilovg

Dear Rob E and pt,
Op 11-jul-2011, om 15:06 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven:

> Rob E: So in that view, if I am correct, Ken H. would say that it
> doesn't really matter if you crash into a tree and die, except for
> the fact that you are not yet enlightened and may thus be reborn as
> a frog.
------
N: Hardness can be very hard, to the extent that it causes death.
There is no such dilemma between thinking of a tree and understanding
paramattha dhammas. The example given before; also the Buddha thought
of Saariputta, knew that Saariputta was there, but the thinking was
without wrong view.

Nina.


#116137 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:59 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] ditthi and moha, differences? 	nilovg

Dear Lukas,
Op 11-jul-2011, om 23:01 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven:
> Dear friends,
> What's a difference between ditthi and moha? I'am confused. micha
> ditthi is avijja? Is it moha?
>
------
N: Wrong view is different from ignorance. Ignorance is just not
knowing realities and it arises with each akusala citta. It has the
characteristic of blindness.
Wrong view is a distorted view of reality, a wrong interpretation of
reality, and it arises only with cittas rooted in lobha, attachment.
When one clings to a self who is hearing instead of knowing hearing
as only an element, there is wrong view. But wrong view is
accompanied by ignorance.
Still, they are different cetasikas. Moha is ignorant of the true
nature of realities and di.t.thi has wrong view about them.

-------
Nina.



#116138 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:12 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concepts can lead to awakening 	nilovg

Dear Philip,
Op 12-jul-2011, om 5:26 heeft philip het volgende geschreven:

>  I will be writing in a few days about a week spent with my
> violently demented mother and soon-to-be-dying father and while
> there was a lot of dosa, the 5rh recollection gave hope at least
> that by living in the Dhamma diligently the mind will at least
> develop beyond the kind of state my morher has been reduced.
--------
N: I sympathize with you about your parents' state. There is another
aspect to ownership of kamma. Sometimes we cannot help others, they
are beyond help. Then, instead of having aversion, one can remember
that kamma brings its own result, thus, that events roll on according
to conditions. There can be upekkhaa, equanimity instead of dosa. And
this attitude in itself is more helpful also for those in our
surroundings. It is better than being downhearted.

Nina.


#116139 	From: "ptaus1" <ptaus1@...>
Date: Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:42 pm
Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening 	ptaus1

Hi Alex, just my thoughts below, as I'm travelling home after a really long
shift, so I'm sorry if I'm a bit cranky.

> A: And I do not dispute that it is possible to make mistakes in meditation. In
fact it is almost guaranteed that mistakes will be made at first.

pt: But that is assuming that the mistake is harmless, while most probably it is
quite harmful, being accompanied with wrong view. So the more the mistakes, the
more wrong view is accumulated and the less the possibility of right view
eventually happening. In fact, right view then tends to happen in spite of the
practice.

A: What is important is to have lots of mindfulness and wisdom to be able to
spot and correct them.

pt: But we in fact have very little wisdom and mindfulness, so it's very
unlikely we're in fact spotting the mistakes in the first place.

A: Making mistakes should not be an excuse not to do wholesome things.

pt: Making a mistake means there are no wholesome things happening at that
instance. So, one is in fact not learning from the mistake as it is the case
with developing conventional skills, but is in fact learning the wrong things -
developing wrong view. So, I doubt the premise that a mistake can lead to a
wholesomeness, like it's the case in conventional world when learning a skill.
It can happen, but it's rare, so in the ultimate world, mistakes lead to more
mistakes, until somebody points it out - i.e. that whole bit about hearing the
Dhamma at the right time in the right way.

> A: If one doesn't practice, one will not perfect the skill.  If one refuses to
do something until one is perfect, then one will simply never start because one
cannot become perfect without practice.

pt: As said many times, this analogy does not apply to development of wisdom,
because it is not something that can be akusala (when a mistake happens).

> A: So one *has* to start somewhere. Habit just doesn't appear out of thin air.
At first there is no habit.

pt: Again, tha analogy dosen't apply. First cause is deemed irrelevant in
Buddhism, afaik. So, we all have good and bad tendencies already, including
ignorance, metta and wisdom. The development then happens when these actually
arise. If they don't arise, then there cannot be said to be development, even if
we were wishing it really hard to arise.

> A: As one practices more and more, these actions accumulate and eventually
become habits. Prompted cittas eventually become a spontaneous habit. We all
start with ignorance.

pt: Again, I don't think that's right because we all have the good and bad
tendencies. So with don't start with ignorance, but rather our good/bad habits
are encouraged by what we hear and how we understand it.

> A: It doesn't mean that we need to wait for it to cease before undertaking the
path.

pt: That is a strawman. As you know, when there's kusala citta, there's no
ignorance as root. So nobody's asking you to wait for the total end of
ignorance. Development of kusala can happen right in this moment or the next if
there's the opportunity.

> A: It is also my idea that if one doesn't actively do kusala, then one does
akusala (which is generally a much bigger habit). To over ride akusala, a
stronger kusala habit is required.

pt: I agree that there's either kusala or akusala, but I don't think you can
choose to actively do kusala. If kusala is there presently, there's nothing you
need to do. If kusala is not there, presently then anything that you are doing
at the time is by default akusala, even if you are in fact trying to arouse
kusala.

>A: If we let things flow "naturally", then like water, it will naturally flow
downwards the path of least resistance. And the more downwards it flows, the
more downward momentum it builds... And so this life may end up like countless
other previous lives in which one waited for better accumulations in the future
rather than actually making them then...

pt: In theory, yes, but in practice what most often happens is the third option
where one is trying to develop kusala but does it all wrong, thus making things
worse. If we were doing it mostly right, we'd be done already by now, so it's
safe to assume we're doing it mostly wrong.

> A: I am really not sure that things will change for the better if one doesn't
do hard things now to stop the downward momentum until it becomes too hard.

pt: The hardest thing is to face yourself right now, rather than plan for the
future or hold onto what's already the past. When the attention turns to right
now, it becomes clear that there's nothing extra to be done, it's all already
happening on its own, and my effort is not required.

Best wishes
pt



#116140 	From: "ptaus1" <ptaus1@...>
Date: Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:20 pm
Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening 	ptaus1

Hi Phil,

> P: Doesn't the 5th recollection on ownership of kamma inspire hope?

pt: Unfortunately no as I never cease to amaze myself how many stupid things I
can do during the day.

> P: I will be wring in a few days about a week spent with my violently demented
mother and soob-to-be-dying father and while there was a lot of dosa, the 5rh
recollection gave hope at least that by living in the Dhamma diligently the mind
will at least develop beyond the kind of stayw my morher has been reduced.

pt: I'm sorry to hear about your parents. I encounter people with severe
dementia and other disabilities at work, and the families tend to cope better
when they can talk about it, so I encourage you to speak about it here and
elsewhere where appropriate.

> P: Through our behaviour un body, speech and mind (i.e our kamma) rhe mind
develops tendencies that will not disappear, I find that encouraging and I
personally feel it is tge poinr of tge daily reccolections.

pt: Hm, I need to grill Sarah and Jon on this point whether tendencies disappear
or not, probably when I meet them, will then get back to you on this.

> P:   I also think the recollections can be rooted in lobha  (wanting a way to
deal wiaely with ageing etc.) and still be very effective. We kniw how rare
moments of pure kysala are. Would the Buddha urge rhese recollections in
all-inclusive terms used nowhere else in the suttanta as far as I know (men,
women etc) if they were only to be made in those extremely rare moments of
kusala?

pt: Hm, the suttas are notoriously hard to figure out - who was the audience,
what were the circumstsnces, etc. Recollections rooted in lobha effective? Don't
know about that one, it would be a hard sell here. Perhaps give more examples of
it to consider.

Btw, you using some sort of swype to input text on your smartphone?

Best wishes
pt



#116141 	From: "Robert E" <epsteinrob@...>
Date: Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:28 pm
Subject: Direct Textual Evidence (Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing) 	epsteinrob

Hi Sarah.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Rob E, Howard W (Alex, Dieter & all),
>
> --- On Sun, 3/7/11, Robert E <epsteinrob@...> wrote:
> >>     What I would ask and have not seen addressed  anywhere is where 1) in
the commentaries, 2) in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, and  3) in the Sutta Pitaka -
going from periphery to core,  it is  stated that meditation, and, more
generally, all intentional  practice, is an obstacle to awakening. If this is
such a central  teaching, the commentaries and the Tipitaka should be filled
with it. <....>
> ...
> R:>Well I think you ask the right question, Howard, and I look forward to the
answer along with you, and any relevant quotes.  I have also asked for any place
in the Tipitaka where Buddha says "Be wary of thinking that you can develop any
enlightenment factors through meditation - that is a trap, and meditation is an
expression of self-view."  I think the answer will be that there is not a single
place anywhere in the ancient texts where such a statement is made.
> ....
> S: In other religions, the core of the practice revolves around a Self, an
Atman, a Soul, an Inner Light or a God. What is radical about the Buddha's
Teachings is the truth that there are only conditioned dhammas (apart from
nibbana, the unconditioned dhamma). When we refer to "intentional practice",
"meditation", "awakening", "developing enlightenment factors" or even
"self-view", these are just dhammas that arise and fall away. There is nothing
at all apart from conditioned dhammas at this very moment.

Exactly what a conditioned dhamma is, how it is experienced, how many factors
are experienced at a single moment by what, what the definition of a moment is,
how many rupas last for how long and how citta functions from moment to moment
in reality, are all realities that are only known directly by the enlightened
mind.  The definitions that one works with from the Abhidhamma that breaks
everything down into precise neat packets with predictable properties, ways of
handing off accumulations and other factors that are defined by commentary and
modern teachers, are not taught directly by the Buddha in any sutta. They are
the interpretations of later commentators and teachers, and are not guaranteed
to be correct, except by the "Kalama" rule of direct experience.  The way in
which such factors are defined by this group are very precise and complex, but
they are woven together from what are essentially intellectual sources, and they
are spoken of, described and thought about in an intellectual way through
concepts.  None of this philosophy proves or sets a basis for why or how the
path should be developed or experienced.  That is a particular philosophy, a
particular way of defining the path.

It is purely based on presupposition and dogma - and I don't mean dogma in a
negative way, but in order to say it is a very specific doctrinal philosophy -
that because there is no control of experience, then one should *not* do any
intentional activity.  I believe that this particular conclusion is a false
doctrine, and is not based on sound logic or any real evidence from the
teachings of the Buddha.  It may be possible of course that I am dead wrong, but
I don't see the logic and it does not make sense.  One is in this world, we
experience this world, we experience the senses "together."  We experience life
"as it is lived" and Buddha gives very extensive teachings on how to use this
world, this body and this life to develop the insight necessary to see this
world, this body and this life as it really is and thus let go of it and awaken.
He never says anywhere that the path that he has outlined and described and that
he himself followed is the wrong path and that one should not also follow it. 
He never says that one should not meditate to develop the same insight that he
developed through extensive meditation.  The philosophy that says that the
reason all the followers of the Buddha followed the path of meditation, good
works, good company, contemplation of the body as it lives and as a corpse, and
all the other exercises he has outlined as part of the path in great detail,
should not be followed as described, or that any of these exercises will develop
self-view instead of leading to liberation.  It is an errant assumption that
this must be the case, based on a conclusion that Buddha never drew - that since
this body and this world is not real and is just a conceptual array, we should
not have anything to do with it, because it can never have anything to do with
the path.  That is not what Buddha said or taught and I continue to think it is
just wrong.

The Buddha's teachings, even parts of the Abhidhamma, and the Visuddhimagga
extensively describe the methods to be used in meditation *as the path.*  To say
that this is all just description and not a teaching of the Buddha and his great
followers is achieved by a semantic trick - that it is given in the "If/then"
language that was used to describe things in that tradition, and thus is not
saying it is what should be done, but only what might be done by one with the
accumulations to do so.  And that we, not having such accumulations, should
ignore all those teachings and take an intellectual path, removed from practice
as described by the Buddha, instead.  I just think it's a mistake.

I also think the entire philosophy, the breakdown of individual cittas, namas,
rupas and cetasikas, should be experienced as they are, as is often stressed,
and not have such hard conclusions taken as truth because it is a logical way of
describing them.  There is no evidence that the six "worlds" are only
experienced separately, that sound and vision, direction and texture and color,
cannot be experienced at the same time in the same mind-moment.  That is also a
philosophical doctrine, not a proven truth.  Buddha himself again never said
such a thing as far as I know.  He described experience in more organic terms.

It is absolutely true that experience is colored by concept and that Buddha
taught us to work through that to see the direct reality through insight.  I
believe he taught to do so through direct practice, breathing, relaxing,
focusing and seeing more and more clearly throughout the years, not merely to
study and talk and think about it. And that the reality that is directly in
front of our eyes and other senses will become more clear, allowing for
detachment. That is enough to know and to practice.  To see how conditions
create experience is important for letting go.  I don't deny the significance of
the Abhidhamma and I get a lot out of the analyses, but I don't take them for
the higher truth above the organic and applicable teachings of the Buddha which
can be put into practice every day through simple attention.  There is no "self"
inherent in such simple attention.  It is just ongoing practice as he taught it.

> We have the idea that we can calm the physical body or make it work in a
particular way, but the Buddha taught his disciples (and us) from the very
beginning:
>
> "Body, monks, is not self. Now were this body self, monks, this body would not
tend to sickness, and one might get the chance of saying in regard to the body,
'Let body become  thus for me, let body not become thus for me'. But inasmuch,
monks, as body is not self, therefore body tends to sickness, and one does not
get the chance of saying in regard to  body, 'Let body become thus for me, let
body not become thus for me'."
>
> In other words, it's an illusion that through meditation or any other means
that the body can be controlled in any way.

The mistake is in thinking that meditation is about control or that by doing a
practice someone is trying to intensify the effectiveness of the self.  That's
not what it's for!  Why mistake the purpose of the Buddha's own vehicle for
liberation which he followed to the end of self, and instead define it as s
vehicle of self.  Isn't that directly against the Buddha's teachings and his own
example?  That is why I ask the question, where did the Buddha ever say that
those with other accumulations should not meditate?  Or that one should be
careful not to meditate unless you happen to find that you have always already
been doing it?  It doesn't even make sense.  In the anpanasati sutta the more
experienced monks were teaching hundreds of beginners to work with breath as
object for the first time, training them, and then practicing with them.  They
were joining the Buddha in doing exactly what you are saying not to do!  Why not
follow his example and do what he did?  If one doesn't have the accumulations to
meditate, then one simply will not do it!  Or will try it and stop.  It's not
rocket science to determine if someone has a predilection for something.  If
they are doing it, then it's what they are doing.  If they are meant to do dry
insight, then they will gravitate towards that.

It's good to say that we should not force anything or think that one *must*
meditate.  But it is also good not to force anyone to give up meditation and say
they must only follow dry insight or they will get mired in self-view. That is
not true.  It depends on what practice brings the Buddha's teaching into their
life for *them.*  But this is not accepted here.  Instead it's "only one way"
and that way must not include any actual practice apart from study.  That is
wrong!

> We are used to thinking the same about our feelings, memories and other mental
tendencies, that through the following of particular activities that they can be
calmed or awakened in any way. Again as the Buddha stressed from the outset:
>
> "Feeling is not self...and one does not get the chance of saying in regard to
feeling, 'Let feeling become thus for me, let feeling not become thus for me'.
>
> "Perception (sa~n~naa) is not self....The habitual tendencies are not
self...one does not get the chance of saying in regard to the habitual
tendencies, 'Let the habitual tendencies become thus for me, let the habitual
tendencies not become thus for me'."

He also said many times that the above can be realized through practice, and
that meditation was a most effective way of doing so, along with practice of
mindfulness in all activities.  The way of mindfulness in all aspects of life,
including meditative practice that hones those factors, and leading to
satipatthana, is the Buddhist path.

> It might seem that if nothing 'can be done' that the path is therefore
hopeless. On the contrary, it is the very understanding now of such dhammas as
anatta and not being within anyone's control that is the Path that leads to
enlightenment. If we are still attempting to control/calm/condition the bodily
phenomena, the feelings and habitual tendencies that arise now with an idea that
we have a chance of saying 'Let them be this way or that way', it indicates a
lack of understanding of the core of the Buddha's message.

It also indicates a lack of understanding of the Buddha's message to ignore what
he says when he says "He breathes in, calming the bodily formation, he breathes
out, calming the bodily formation." That is Buddha teaching you how to do just
that, and you cannot turn around and then deny that he has said that, and that
this is his pathway to liberation.

> Even when it comes to consciousness, is there not the idea that through
'(formal) meditation', through 'intentional practice' it can somehow be
developed, calmed and controlled, that somehow this is the way to stop the
'monkey-mind' and develop the enlightenment factors?

Yes, and it is in fact true.  It's not dependent on self, however, it's
dependent on the wise teachings and instructions of the Buddha.  Since one is
following such instructions, one is not depending on self. There is no control
of the self involved, it is merely doing what is told to be the path and
following the Buddha. Where is the self in there, where is the personal control?
It is not as if each practitioner has made this method up!

> However, isn't the consciousness now the only consciousness and isn't it
conditioned already? Isn't it impermanent? How can it ever be 'stopped' or
'controlled' by us or our 'intentional practice/meditation'? As the Buddha said:

There is no stopping, no control, just "look and see" as the Buddha said.  Keep
looking, keep practicing, keep following instructions, until one sees.  No
control involved, just following the teachings and the practice.  One plants the
seeds, one doesn't grow the fruit.

> "Consciousness is not self.....inasmuch, monks, as consciousness is not self,
therefore consciousness tends to sickness, and one does not get the chance to
say in regard to consciousness, 'Let consciousness become such for me, let
consciousness not become thus for me.'"
>
> Yes, "consciousness tends to sickness". It has always tended "to sickness". It
is sick whenever akusala cittas arise which is most of the day. However, when we
try to make or 'let' it be another way, there are just more sick cittas arising,
more sick feelings, perceptions and other habitual tendencies arising with
ignorance and attachment.
>
> As the Buddha goes on to point out, these dhammas are all impermanent, all
dukkha and none of them are Self or belong to Self in any way.

I'm sorry, but these teachings of the Buddha do *not* deny his teaching of
meditation.  He doesn't say anywhere in here, as you are saying, if you try to
do intentional practice, you will just make this worse, because intentional
practice gives the illusion of self-control.  He does not say this. Instead he
keeps explaining how continuous 24/7 attempt to practice mindfulness will
develop the enlightenment factors.  It's Buddha's formula for getting past all
the things you are describing, not mine.

> "Wherefore, monks, whatever is body...feeling...perception...habitual
tendencies...consciousness,  past, future, present, or internal or external, or
gross or subtle, or low or excellent, whether it is far or near - all
body....feeling...perception....habitual tendencies...consciousness should, by
means of right wisdom, be seen, as it really is, thus: This is not mine, this am
I not, this is not my self."
>
> So 'what can be done?', 'Where is the intentional practice?' I hear friends
asking. The questions are still wrongly motivated by an idea of oneself doing
something.
>
> Instead, the Buddha taught that with regard to understanding the khandhas
above as anatta:
>
> "Seeing in this way, monks, the instructed disciple of the ariyans disregards
body and he disregards feeling and he disregards perception and he disregards
the habitual tendencies and he disregards consciousness; disregarding he is
dispassionate; through dispassion he is freed; in freedom the knowledge comes to
be: 'I am freed', and he knows: Destroyed is birth, lived is the Brahma-faring,
done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or such."
>
> The freedom comes through the understanding and dispassion towards what is
conditioned now, just as it is.
>
> As we know, when the five monks heard the sutta, they all became arahants on
the spot. All the teachings should be understood in the light of this
Anattalakkhana Sutta.* The path is one of understanding the khandhas that arise
now as anatta, not of attempting to control or change them in any way.

There are some suttas that describe such things happening, but they *never*
contradict or deny his many teachings for the many monks on the virtues of
meditation, detailed in such great specificity in the Visudhimagga.  Never ever.
You can't take a few suttas that describe advanced disciples who were privy to
the Buddha's direct teaching and say 'this proves all his other teachings for
thousands of monks on how to meditate should not be practiced.'  That is like
saying that one person in a city died from drinking milk, so no one else should
ever drink milk again.  It's not true logic.

It is possible to interpret anything in any way if one has a predisposition to
do so, but that doesn't mean that the actual direct words of the Buddha do not
mean what they say.  There is no commentary that can explain or justify that the
Buddha is not teaching when he goes into detail about meditation, or can claim
that he himself did not do so, or that he did not praise such practice
repeatedly.  To take away the Buddha's own practice through which he reached
enlightenment and say 'it is not the path' is an egregious error.

Best,
Robert E.

= = = = = = = = = = =



#116142 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:08 pm
Subject: Re: Direct Textual Evidence (Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing) 	nilovg

Dear Rob E,
Op 12-jul-2011, om 13:28 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven:

> There is no evidence that the six "worlds" are only experienced
> separately, that sound and vision, direction and texture and color,
> cannot be experienced at the same time in the same mind-moment.
> That is also a philosophical doctrine, not a proven truth. Buddha
> himself again never said such a thing as far as I know. He
> described experience in more organic terms.
-------
N: Don't we often read in the suttas: "When seeing a sight with the
eyes, when hearing a sound with the ears, when smelling a smell with
the nose...etc." ?
Can you think of two things at the same time? When you touch
something can you experience hardness at the same time as heat? I
mean direct experience, no thinking.

-------
Nina.


#116143 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:54 pm
Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: part 1 to Ken O - 	upasaka_howard

Hi, Nina (and Robert & pt) -

In a message dated 7/12/2011 4:48:18 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
vangorko@... writes:

Dear Rob  E and pt,
Op 11-jul-2011, om 15:06 heeft ptaus1 het volgende  geschreven:

> Rob E: So in that view, if I am correct, Ken H. would  say that it
> doesn't really matter if you crash into a tree and  die, except for
> the fact that you are not yet enlightened and  may thus be reborn as
> a frog.
------
N: Hardness can be  very hard, to the extent that it causes death.
There is no such dilemma  between thinking of a tree and understanding
paramattha dhammas. The  example given before; also the Buddha thought
of Saariputta, knew  that Saariputta was there, but the thinking was
without wrong  view.
---------------------------------------------
     I do think your answer makes sense, Nina. What,  however, is your
understanding of his knowing "that  Saariputta was there"?
     I take it to mean that the Buddha  knew that within what is called
"physical proximity," the relatively clear  and pure stream/whirlpool of mental
and physical phenomena conventionally  identified as "Saariputta" was
present and active. The Buddha knew that there  was no separate entity there, no
self and no soul and no real being named  "Saariputta", but the phenomena
that are the basis for the Saariputta concept  were, indeed, rising and falling
in a coherent and  lawful manner.
-----------------------------------------------------
Nina.
===================================
With metta,
Howard


Seamless Interdependence

/A change in  anything is a change in  everything/

(Anonymous)



#116144 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:11 pm
Subject: Re: Direct Textual Evidence (Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing) 	upasaka_howard

Hi, Robert (and Sarah) -

In a message dated 7/12/2011 7:28:28 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
epsteinrob@... writes:

Exactly  what a conditioned dhamma is, how it is experienced, how many
factors are  experienced at a single moment by what, what the definition of a
moment is,  how many rupas last for how long and how citta functions from
moment to moment  in reality, are all realities that are only known directly by
the enlightened  mind.  The definitions that one works with from the
Abhidhamma that  breaks everything down into precise neat packets with
predictable
properties,  ways of handing off accumulations and other factors that are
defined by  commentary and modern teachers, are not taught directly by the
Buddha in any  sutta. They are the interpretations of later commentators and
teachers, and  are not guaranteed to be correct, except by the "Kalama" rule
of direct  experience.  The way in which such factors are defined by this
group are  very precise and complex, but they are woven together from what are
essentially intellectual sources, and they are spoken of, described and
thought about in an
intellectual way through concepts.  None of  this philosophy proves or sets
a basis for why or how the path should be  developed or experienced.  That
is a particular philosophy, a particular  way of defining the path.
====================================
     The contrast you make between purely  intellectually founded view and
what is knowable by direct investigation  (supported, of course, by a
sufficient basis  of background study), reminds me of a teaching given around 
the
time of Jesus, and copied at the end of this post. I find myself  amused at
the timeliness of this two-millennia-old teaching about a  failing we all
have.

With metta,
Howard


Silence and Practice Trump Study
/All my days I have been raised among the Sages,  and I found nothing
better for oneself than silence; not study, but practice is  the main thing; and
one who talks excessively brings on  sin./
(Shimon ben Rabban Gamliel, Ethics of the Fathers  1:17)


#116145 	From: A T <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:28 am
Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening 	truth_aerator

Hello Pt, all,

>pt: But that is assuming that the mistake is harmless, while most >probably it
is quite harmful, being accompanied with wrong view.
>================================================================


Different mistakes have different amount of harmfulness. A "mistake" here may
simply be lack of right view, but no wrong view.

Since we do not start with perfect wisdom, it is natural that mistakes will be
made. An important point is to learn from them, try not to do them again and do
one's best.

Not doing anything kusala is a mistake, perhaps a much bigger one than doing
kusala and making some mistake there.

We can't drop like a log of wood and not do anything. So we might as well do our
best with conditions that we have.


>pt:So the more the mistakes, the more wrong view is accumulated
>==============================================================

If the mistake is with wrong view. But physical action itself doesn't need to be
with wrong view. It can be disassociated from wrong view. The mistake may be
when kusala citta arises disassociated from right view. This mistake may happen
in meditation.


>pt:and the less the possibility of right view eventually happening. In >fact,
right view then tends to happen in spite of the practice.
>===================================================================

Wrong views can be with putting on a cloth, eating and doing daily stuff.
Does this means that these things impediments to right view? Does this mean that
one shouldn't eat, drink, sleep, put on cloth because one may develop wrong
views? While these activities are not mahakusala, insight meditation is.
> pt: But we in fact have very little wisdom and mindfulness, so it's >very
unlikely we're in fact spotting the mistakes in the first place.
>================================================================

It is called gradual development. One has to start somewhere. If one never
starts even with 1 step, one will not ever get to the destination.


Imagine if the toddler decides not to walk until he is certain not to fall
down... How will he ever be able to walk?

>
> A: Making mistakes should not be an excuse not to do wholesome things.
>
> pt: Making a mistake means there are no wholesome things happening at >that
instance.

Or kusala citta disassociated from right view.

>pt: Again, tha analogy dosen't apply. First cause is deemed irrelevant >in
Buddhism, afaik.
>======================================================================

It is not so much as ontological first cause, but rather the point that in order
to become good at something one needs to practice. At first the practice will
not be fully correct, but as time goes on, it will if one gathers wisdom along
the way.


I often read many "shoulds" in KS writing, so it shouldn't be taken as not doing
anything.

Here I seem to read about dislike of word "should"


>pt: The hardest thing is to face yourself right now, rather than plan >for the
future or hold onto what's already the past. When the attention >turns to right
now, it becomes clear that there's nothing extra to be >done, it's all already
happening on its own, and my effort is not >required.
>===================================================================

Things happen (effects) on their own only when the causes have been set. If one
doesn't set kusala habits, the things happening will be as a general rule,
Akusala.
IMHO.


With metta,
Alex



#116146 	From: A T <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:46 am
Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening 	truth_aerator

Hello Pt, Phil, all,

>================================================================
>pt:Hm, the suttas are notoriously hard to figure out - who was the >audience,
what were the circumstsnces, etc.
>=================================================================

Especially when one tries to make them say what they don't appear to be saying
in order to justify certain points that were not explicitly said by the suttas
or the commentaries such as VsM.


With best wishes,

Alex



#116148 	From: A T <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:56 am
Subject: Direct Textual Evidence (Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing) 	truth_aerator

Hello Robert, all,

I agree with your post. Moreover, as I hope you know, after the Buddha there
have been a number of different schools. Orthodox Theravada was not even the
first one.

Different schools may have agreed upon the suttas, but disagreed very much on
interpretation of them (Abhidhamma, Commentaries). Their suttas were virtually
identical in meaning, but commentaries and Abhidhamma differed greatly. Some
believed in reality of 3 times, some in 2, and some in 1. There were differences
of opinion regarding antarabhava (the proof was taken from the suttas). There
was difference of belief regarding what Aryan can or cannot do. Etc. We are not
even talking about Mahayana, we are talking about pre Mahayana schools, even in
a single place such as Sri Lanka.  This should tell us something...
When it comes to practice, I like this quote:
"Those who believe in the reality of the soul are torn by the teeth of heresy;
those who do not recognize the conventional self let their good actions fall
away, and perish" - Abhidharmakosabhasyam pg 1334 (Volume 4)
With best wishes,

Alex



#116149 	From: A T <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:09 am
Subject: 5 aggregates of grasping & Arhat 	truth_aerator

Dear All,

In SN22.122 it says:
"An arahant should attend in an appropriate way to these five
clinging-aggregates (pañcupādānakkhandhā) as inconstant, stressful, a
disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an
emptiness, not-self...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.122.than.html

What exactly does pañcupādānakkhandhā mean?
How can Arahant have pañcupādānakkhandhā (if it is upādāna which Arhat has
none)?

With best wishes,
Alex



#116150 	From: Vince <cerovzt@...>
Date: Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:13 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Does actual moment of insight require thoughts? 	cerovzt@...
Send Email Send Email
  	

Dear Nina

>> I'm long time interested to know if there is some equivalent or a
>> similar teaching in Abhidhamma or the whole Theravada.
> ----------
>> N: When the teaching is not concerned with knowing the present
>> moment more precisely it is too vague for me. The Abhidhamma is
>> very precise.
> When I said: " we are not focussed on anything" I meant trying to
> concentrate on a specific naama or ruupa, because satipa.t.thaana is
> not the development of concentration but the development of
> understanding.

yes... I think the same. Maybe it is just another turn to the same thing but
in the mahayana there is a practical utility for this notion regarding
understanding.

Reading the Suttas I find the same focus of the Sujin "practical" way to apply
Abhidhamma. In example:

"Since, Bahiya, there is for you in the seen, only the seen,
in the heard, only the heard,
in the sensed, only the sensed,
in the cognized, only the cognized,
and you see that there is no thing here,
you will therefore see that indeed there is no thing there.
As you see that there is no thing there,
you will see that you are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that, nor in any place betwixt the two.
This alone is the end of suffering.�
-- Udana I, 10

so with this in mind, from here there is also a conclusion of no-error in all
the
dhammas arising in the present moment. Reality is perfect in itself and the only
error is our delusion.

So I talk about such notion of "perfection" in this practical sense (like some
type of equanimity, perhaps).
I have read inside Abhidhamma about equanimity and other related ways. However,
I ignore if there is any direct clear mention to some "perfection" of Reality or
dhammas.

I cannot find it inside Visuddhimagga neither Attasalini but I don't know if
maybe there is another place to check this.  Do you remember some text talking
about a "perfection" in a similar way?


thanks in advance,


Vince.
#116151 	From: "Ken H" <kenhowardau@yahoo.com.au>
Date: Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:04 am
Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening 	kenhowardau

Hi  Alex (and Pt),

I'd like to chime in here.

------------
>> pt: As said many times, this analogy does not apply to development of wisdom,
because it is not something that can be akusala (when a mistake happens).

> A: So one *has* to start somewhere. Habit just doesn't appear out of thin air.
--------------

KH: As has been pointed out in previous DSG discussions, most people who set out
to practise jhana  don't even know what jhana is. They have never bothered to
find out. They just do something vaguely called meditation and consider
themselves to be jhana practitioners.

Exactly the same thing happens with vipassana; most meditators don't even know
what it is. They just follow a set procedure of some kind and call it Buddhist
practice.

You can follow a wrong practice all your life and it will never magically turn
into vipassana. First find out what vipassana is!

End of rant. :-)

Ken H



#116152 	From: A T <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:19 am
Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening 	truth_aerator

Hello KenH, all,


>KH: > Exactly the same thing happens with vipassana; most meditators >don't
>even know what it is. They just follow a set procedure of some >kind and >call
it Buddhist practice. You can follow a wrong practice all >your life >and it
will never >magically turn into vipassana. First find >out what >vipassana is!
>==================================================


So what do you propose? Please don't forget to include relevant sutta or
commentary quotes.


With metta,

Alex



#116153 	From: "Ken H" <kenhowardau@yahoo.com.au>
Date: Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:55 am
Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening 	kenhowardau

Hi Alex,


--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, A T <truth_aerator@...> wrote:
>
> Hello KenH, all,
>
>
> >KH: > Exactly the same thing happens with vipassana; most meditators >don't
>even know what it is. They just follow a set procedure of some >kind and >call
it Buddhist practice. You can follow a wrong practice all >your life >and it
will never >magically turn into vipassana. First find >out what >vipassana is!
> >==================================================
>
>
> So what do you propose? Please don't forget to include relevant sutta or
commentary quotes.
>
>
-------------

KH: They are all relevant. The entire Tipitka and ancient commentaries have to
be understood in a way that is consistent throughout.   When you have found that
way you have found the meaning of vipassana.

Ken H



#116154 	From: A T <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:12 am
Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening 	truth_aerator

Dear KenH, all,

Lets talk about Satipatthana instructions, especially about secluded place and
posture for anapanasati . In the sutta it says:

"And how does a monk remain focused on the body in & of itself?
[1] "There is the case where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the
shade of a tree, or to an empty building — sits down folding his legs
crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the
front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.html


Paṭisambhidāmagga  TREATISE ON BREATHING

183. What are the thirty-two kinds of knowledge in mindful workers?
[ Sutta Summary: 4 Tetrads, 16 bases, 32 modes ]
Here a bhikkhu, gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an
empty place sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body
erect, established mindfulness in front of him, ever mindful he breathes
in, mindful he breathes out.
...
185. A bhikkhu: a bhikkhu is a magnanimous ordinary man or an Initiate
or an Arahant who has reached the unassailable idea.
186. Forest: having gone out beyond the boundary post, all that is forest.
187. Root of a tree: where the bhikkhu's seat is prepared, or his bed or
his chair or his mattress or his mat or his piece of hide or his spread of
grass or his spread of leaves, or his spread of straw, there he walks or
stands or sits or lies down.
188. Empty: unfrequented by laymen or by those gone forth into homelessness.
189. Place: dwelling, lean-to, mansion, villa, cave.
190. Sits down; having folded his legs crosswise: he is seated, having
folded his legs crosswise.
191. Set his body erect: his body is erect, [firmly] placed, properly
disposed.


Visuddhimagga VIII,

153. Gone to the forest ...or to an empty place: this signifies that he has
found an abode favourable to the development of concentration through
mindfulness of breathing. For this bhikkhu's mind has long been dissipated
among visible data, etc., as its object, and it does not want to
mount the object of concentration-through-mindfulness-of-breathing; it
runs off the track like a chariot harnessed to a wild ox.41 Now suppose a
cowherd [269] wanted to tame a wild calf that had been reared on a wild
cow's milk, he would take it away from the cow and tie it up apart with
a rope to a stout post dug into the ground; then the calf might dash to and fro,
but being unable to get away, it would eventually sit down or lie
down by the post. So too, when a bhikkhu wants to tame his own mind
which has long been spoilt by being reared on visible data, etc., as object for
its food and drink, he should take it away from visible data, etc., as object
and bring it into the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty place and
tie it up there to the post of in-breaths and out-breaths with the rope of
mindfulness. And so his mind may then dash to and fro when it no longer gets the
objects it was formerly used to, but being unable to break the rope of
mindfulness and get away, it sits down, lies down, by that object under the
influence of access and absorption.

157. ...So the Blessed One said 'gone to the forest', etc., to point out a
forest abode as a place likely to hasten his advancement.

158. Herein, gone to the forest is gone to any kind of forest possessing
the bliss of seclusion among the kinds of forests characterized thus:
'Having gone out beyond the boundary post, all that is forest' (Ps.i,176;Vbh.
251), and 'A forest abode is five hundred bow lengths distant' (Vin.iv,183). To
the root of a tree: gone to the vicinity of a tree. To an empty place: gone to
an empty, secluded space. And here he can be said to have gone to an 'empty
place' if he has gone to any of the remaining seven kinds of abode (resting
place).42 [271]

159. Having thus indicated an abode that is suitable to the three seasons,
suitable to humour and temperament,43 and favourable to the development
of mindfulness of breathing, he then said sits down, etc., indicating
a posture that is peaceful and tends neither to idleness nor to agitation.
Then he said having folded his legs crosswise, etc., to show firmness in
the sitting position, easy occurrence of the in-breaths and out-breaths,
and the means for discerning the object.

160. Herein, crosswise is the sitting position with the thighs fully locked.
Folded: having locked. Set his body erect: having placed the upper part of the
body erect with the eighteen backbones resting end to end. For when he is seated
like this, his skin, flesh and sinews are not twisted, and so the feelings that
would arise moment by moment if they were twisted do not arise. That being so,
his mind becomes unified, and the meditation subject, instead of collapsing,
attains to growth and increase.

===================

So what do the commentaries say about ""having gone to the wilderness, to the
shade of a tree, or to an empty building — sits down folding his legs
crosswise, holding his body erect "

(this instruction applies to some other aspects of the path as well).

What do commentaries say about seclusion?

With metta,

Alex



#116155 	From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" <bhikkhu3@...>
Date: Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:35 am
Subject: The Peak! 	bhikkhu5

Friends:
Inclining, sloping, bending and falling towards Enlightenment!


The Blessed Buddha once said:
Bhikkhus, just as all the rafters in a peaked house slant, slant, slope,
tilt, tend,
incline & veer towards the roof peak, even so, when a bhikkhu begin to
develop
and cultivate the Seven
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/The_7_Links_to_Awakening.htm>  Links to
Awakening, then he indeed slants, slopes, tilts,
tends, inclines & veers towards Nibb�na... Why and how is this convergence
so?
When, friends, a Bhikkhu trains, develops, expands, consolidates and
refines:
1: The Awareness <http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Awareness_Sati.htm>
Link to Awakening:
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Awareness_Sati.htm>
sati-sambojjhanga.
2: The Investigation
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Investigation_Vicaya.htm>  Link to
Awakening:  <http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Investigation_Vicaya.htm>
dhammavicaya-sambojjhanga.
3: The Energy <http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Energy_Viriya.htm>
Link to Awakening:
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Energy_Viriya.htm>
viriya-sambojjhanga.
4: The Joy <http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Joy_Piti.htm>  Link to
Awakening:  <http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Joy_Piti.htm>
p�ti-sambojjhanga.
5: The Tranquillity
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Tranquillity_Passaddhi.htm>  Link to
Awakening:
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Tranquillity_Passaddhi.htm>
passaddhi-sambojjhanga.
6: The Concentration
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Concentration_Samadhi.htm>  Link to
Awakening:
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Concentration_Samadhi.htm>
sam�dhi-sambojjhanga.
7: The Equanimity
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Equanimity_Upekkha.htm>  Link to
Awakening:  <http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Equanimity_Upekkha.htm>
upekkh�-sambojjhanga.
based upon seclusion, disillusion, and ceasing, maturing & culminating in
release,
then these 7
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/The_Seven_Links_to_Awakening.htm>
Links to Awakening and the repeated training of them, in and by
themselves, make him slant, slope, tilt, tend, veer and incline towards
Nibb�na...

<....>
Source (edited extract):
The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nik�ya.
[V: 75-6] section 46: The Links. 7: The Peaked House....

Have a nice & noble day!

Friendship is the Greatest!
  <http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Bhikkhu_Samahita> Bhikkhu
Sam�hita _/\_ *
<...>



#116156 	From: "philip" <philco777@...>
Date: Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:50 pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: concepts can lead to awakening 	philofillet

Hi Nina

     Yes, thank you, that aspect of ownership of kamma is very helpful. I will
write more in that other thread when I am on a computer rather than this
i-phone,  but understanding my mother is helped very much by Dhamma and there is
not much fear and loathing.On the other hand, it is difficult to reflect on
others' ownership of kamma without a sense of superiority. But that's ok,
conditioned dhammas!

      Metta,
      Phil


--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Philip,
> Op 12-jul-2011, om 5:26 heeft philip het volgende geschreven:
>
> >  I will be writing in a few days about a week spent with my
> > violently demented mother and soon-to-be-dying father and while
> > there was a lot of dosa, the 5rh recollection gave hope at least
> > that by living in the Dhamma diligently the mind will at least
> > develop beyond the kind of state my morher has been reduced.
> --------
> N: I sympathize with you about your parents' state. There is another
> aspect to ownership of kamma. Sometimes we cannot help others, they
> are beyond help. Then, instead of having aversion, one can remember
> that kamma brings its own result, thus, that events roll on according
> to conditions. There can be upekkhaa, equanimity instead of dosa. And
> this attitude in itself is more helpful also for those in our
> surroundings. It is better than being downhearted.
>
> Nina.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>



#116157 	From: "philip" <philco777@...>
Date: Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:09 pm
Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening 	philofillet

Hi Pt

       Yes, sorry about all the typos iin that last e-mail to you, I was in a
hurry as someone was coming and I am kind of a fanatic about those recollections
and needed to rant. I phone keys are so teeny..

     A couple of points to leave with you.

     Accumulation of tendencies of behaviour? Surely yes, wouldn't the paccayas
back that up if common sense is not enough?
     Alzheimer's disease, fascinating from a Dhamma point of view, will write in
response to a letter from Nina in a few days. Thank you for your concern,
appreciated.
     Suttas all difficult to understand because of intended audience, level of
understanding of the listener, etc. I agree to a certain extent. Personally I
have shied away from suttas on D.O for example (over my head)and any suttas
dealing with attainments, not relevant to me. But the sutta in question with the
all inclsive terms that are used, I feel it is for everyone to understand.

     Lobha being useful on the path, yes, a hard sell anywhere. People would call
it kusala chanda. In my case though Buddhism is entirely about wanting to be
happy. If all the lobha that is involved means I am Off The True Path, so be it,
I guess. I will have at least found a supremely excellent self-help
program...and will have consistent happiness to go with it....

     I'll leave it there, will continue enjoying following your endeavour to
consider boty sides of issues thoroughly...

      Metta,
       Phil

    p.s hopefully fewer typis this tine.

  Jun 20, 2011 7:55 pm

  Show Message Option
"philip" <philco777@...>
philofillet
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--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" <ptaus1@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Phil,
>
> > P: Doesn't the 5th recollection on ownership of kamma inspire hope?
>
> pt: Unfortunately no as I never cease to amaze myself how many stupid things I
can do during the day.
>
> > P: I will be wring in a few days about a week spent with my violently
demented mother and soob-to-be-dying father and while there was a lot of dosa,
the 5rh recollection gave hope at least that by living in the Dhamma diligently
the mind will at least develop beyond the kind of stayw my morher has been
reduced.
>
> pt: I'm sorry to hear about your parents. I encounter people with severe
dementia and other disabilities at work, and the families tend to cope better
when they can talk about it, so I encourage you to speak about it here and
elsewhere where appropriate.
>
> > P: Through our behaviour un body, speech and mind (i.e our kamma) rhe mind
develops tendencies that will not disappear, I find that encouraging and I
personally feel it is tge poinr of tge daily reccolections.
>
> pt: Hm, I need to grill Sarah and Jon on this point whether tendencies
disappear or not, probably when I meet them, will then get back to you on this.
>
> > P:   I also think the recollections can be rooted in lobha  (wanting a way
to deal wiaely with ageing etc.) and still be very effective. We kniw how rare
moments of pure kysala are. Would the Buddha urge rhese recollections in
all-inclusive terms used nowhere else in the suttanta as far as I know (men,
women etc) if they were only to be made in those extremely rare moments of
kusala?
>
> pt: Hm, the suttas are notoriously hard to figure out - who was the audience,
what were the circumstsnces, etc. Recollections rooted in lobha effective? Don't
know about that one, it would be a hard sell here. Perhaps give more examples of
it to consider.
>
> Btw, you using some sort of swype to input text on your smartphone?
>
> Best wishes
> pt
>



#116158 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:42 pm
Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: part 1 to Ken O - 	nilovg

Hi Howard,
I agree and meant it like you said; not a self or soul is there only
fleeting phenomena.
Op 12-jul-2011, om 14:54 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven:

> I do think your answer makes sense, Nina. What, however, is your
> understanding of his knowing "that Saariputta was there"?
> I take it to mean that the Buddha knew that within what is called
> "physical proximity," the relatively clear and pure stream/
> whirlpool of mental
> and physical phenomena conventionally identified as "Saariputta" was
> present and active. The Buddha knew that there was no separate
> entity there, no
> self and no soul and no real being named "Saariputta", but the
> phenomena
> that are the basis for the Saariputta concept were, indeed, rising
> and falling
> in a coherent and lawful manner.
------



#116159 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:46 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] control 	nilovg

Dear Alex,
Op 10-jul-2011, om 18:13 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven:

> N:Read Sarah's post today about the uncontrollibilty of realities,
> >their nature of anattaa.
> >===============================================================
>
> While there is no cartoonish version of control, there is such
> thing as influence, and there are controlling faculties (indriyas,
> bala, etc) that DO control certain things. There are also causes
> the control their effects.
-------
N: Yes, right.
-------
>
> A: It is true that one can't wish to allay hunger by wishing for
> food to be in the stomach, but (assuming one has the capabilities)
> one can walk and grab the food from the refrigerator, and eat.
------
N: This example is more complicated, it involves a story, a situation.
No person is walking, or eating. As the Buddha said: we have to see
the body in the body, etc. No self in the body.
-------
Nina.


#116160 	From: Lukas <szmicio@...>
Date: Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:56 pm
Subject: mana - conceit, all kind comparing in that? 	szmicio

Dear friends, What's the characteristic of mana, conceit?
When there is comparing my practice to others or my current expirience to the
one from past, is there a mana in such a moment? Does all comparings, even
though they are not including Self, me - idea are mana, of mana characteristics?

Best wishes
Lukas

#116161 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:56 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] 5 aggregates of grasping & Arhat 	nilovg

Dear Alex,
Op 12-jul-2011, om 22:09 heeft A T het volgende geschreven:

> An arahant should attend in an appropriate way to these five
> clinging-aggregates (pañcupādānakkhandhā) as inconstant,
> stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction,
> alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self...
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.122.than.html
>
> What exactly does pañcupādānakkhandhā mean?
> How can Arahant have pañcupādānakkhandhā (if it is upādāna
> which Arhat has none)?
-----
N: I think that this is implied, no doubt about it. But when speaking
to non-arahats, the Buddha could speak in general about the khandhas
of grasping.
-----
Nina.


#116162 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:28 pm
Subject: Six worlds. 	nilovg

Dear Rob E,
I thought again about your post on meditation and paramattha dhammas.
You wrote:
R: It is an errant assumption that this must be the case, based on a
conclusion that Buddha never drew - that since this body and this
world is not real and is just a conceptual array, we should not have
anything to do with it, because it can never have anything to do with
the path. That is not what Buddha said or taught and I continue to
think it is just wrong.
--------
N: You think that when speaking about ultimates we live in an
intellectual, artificial, cold, unnatural word and reject the
conventional world. I believe we have to clear up quite some
misunderstandings.
I feel that there is nothing that does not pertain to daily life in
what is taught in the Abhidhamma.
It is not like this: know just sound, no story, like driving a car.
Seeing arises and there is thinking about what is seen, this is all
very natural. Seeing and thinking are different moments of citta, and
to learn about different moments is not artificial or unnatural. We
perfomr good deeds and evil deeds, and the Dhamma goes to the source
of these deeds, namely the citta. You do not disagree that it is
essential to know different cittas that arise. And here we are in the
world of paramattha dhammas. We cannot escape this world. I quote
from my "Lessons in Detachment" an India talk:

<Everybody would like to live in a world without wars, but one cannot
change the world so long as one does not understand the real cause of
akusala. So long as there is the latent tendency of ignorance it
conditions the arising of akusala cittas. Citta is the source of good
and bad deeds. We should be grateful to the Buddha for teaching us
the real cause of akusala, for teaching us about the latent
tendencies and showing how dangerous these tendencies are. >
Also, a King asked the Buddha what the real cause is of all the
trouble in the world. The answer is: attachment, aversion and ignorance.
These are paramattha dhammas, unwholesome roots. But is this sutta
not about daily life: how to have more peace in the world.
By studying the Abhidhamma we do not become estranged from the world.
------
R:
And that we, not having such accumulations, should ignore all those
teachings and take an intellectual path, removed from practice as
described by the Buddha, instead.

------

N: I do not know whether you consider it an intellectual Path to
learn more about the cittas that arise. tHis is daily life and I
would call it practice.

------

R: There is no evidence that the six "worlds" are only experienced
separately, that sound and vision, direction and texture and color,
cannot be experienced at the same time in the same mind-moment. That
is also a philosophical doctrine, not a proven truth. Buddha himself
again never said such a thing as far as I know. He described
experience in more organic terms.

-------

N: In my former post to you I touched on this already. There are many
suttas on the guarding of the six doorways, indriya sa"mvara siila.
When seeing visible object, he does not attend to the general
appearance nor to the details. When we 'see' people and believe that
they exist we attend to the general appearance and to the details.
That is different from just seeing that experiences only colour. Just
recently the sutta on Bahiya was quoted: in the seeing only the
seeing. Perhaps this makes it clearer to you that the Buddha spoke
about the six doorways? And the six doorways are nothing else but
daily life.

In my daily life I have not experienced that developing understanding
of what appears now is forced, unnatural.

------

Nina.



#116163 	From: Lukas <szmicio@...>
Date: Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:54 pm
Subject: clinging to concepts? 	szmicio

Dear friends,

Does clinging clings to concepts or only to realities. I mean can lobha cling to
a concept or rather to the characteristic(citta) of experiencing a concept?

Best wishes
Lukas

#116164 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:42 pm
Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: part 1 to Ken O - 	upasaka_howard

Thank you, Nina!!  :-)

With metta,
Howard

P. S. My very best to Lodewijk!


In a message dated 7/13/2011 5:43:17 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
vangorko@... writes:

Hi  Howard,
I agree and meant it like you said; not a self or soul is there  only
fleeting phenomena.
Op 12-jul-2011, om 14:54 heeft  upasaka@... het volgende geschreven:

> I do think your answer  makes sense, Nina. What, however, is your
> understanding of his knowing  "that Saariputta was there"?
> I take it to mean that the Buddha knew  that within what is called
> "physical proximity," the relatively clear  and pure stream/
> whirlpool of mental
> and physical phenomena  conventionally identified as "Saariputta" was
> present and active. The  Buddha knew that there was no separate
> entity there, no
>  self and no soul and no real being named "Saariputta", but the
>  phenomena
> that are the basis for the Saariputta concept were, indeed,  rising
> and falling
> in a coherent and lawful  manner.


#116165 	From: A T <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:16 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] control 	truth_aerator

Dear Nina, (attn: Robert E) all,

>N: This example is more complicated, it involves a story, a situation.
>No person is walking, or eating. As the Buddha said: we have to see
>the body in the body, etc. No self in the body.
>==================================================================

But as you know, the Buddha did affirm the existence of conventional persons and
things. He OFTEN spoke conventionally and it was helpful for listeners to reach
Arhatship.

I also remember a commentary quote that says that conventional teaching is as
useful as ultimate. In other words it is NOT the case between true and false.

Let us not forget the limits of analysis. For example we are told about 5
aggregates.�  But this is a way of analyzing, and none of the separate khandhas
be taken as self existing things.

One cannot divide a person into 5 aggregates and put form (rūpa) into one pile,
feeling (vedanā) in 2nd pile, perception (saññā) in 3rd pile, mental
formation (saṅkhāra) in 4th pile, and consciousness (viññāṇa) in 5th
pile. Some of the aggregates cannot even occur without others and be
experientially differentiated, ex:

""Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It
is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the
difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one
perceives, that one cognizes. "
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html
Difference between them is conceptual!


Buddha when he taught Anatta was very careful to steer away from nihilism and to
be precise about what He refuted. He refuted the idea of eternal and pleasant
Atta (Soul).�  He never ever refuted the conventional self (atta) made of
aggregates that is anicca, dukkha and Anatta.


"2. Those who believe in the reality of the soul are torn by the
teeth of heresy; those who do not recognize the conventional self
let their good actions fall away, and perish."
- Abhidharmakosabhasyam pg 1334


165. By oneself (Attanā'va) is evil done; by oneself is one defiled. By oneself
is evil left undone; by oneself is one made pure. Purity and impurity depended
on oneself; no one can purify another. Attanā'va kataṃ pāpaṃ attanā
saṃkilissati Attanā akataṃ pāpaṃ attanā'va visujjhati Suddhi asuddhi
paccattaṃ nāññamañño visodhaye.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.12.budd.html

So we either have a huge contradiction, in one part of the canon the Buddha
talks about atta, in another He denies it. Or we have to be careful to
distinguish between wrong conception of Eternal Soul which the Buddha denied, vs
real conventional empiric individual.
"So, brahmin, when there is the element of endeavoring, endeavoring beings are
clearly discerned (sattā paññāyantī); of such beings, this is the self-doer
(attakāro), this, the other-doer. I have not, brahmin, seen or heard such a
doctrine, such a view as yours. How, indeed, could one — moving forward by
himself, moving back by himself — say ‘There is no self-doer, there is no
other-doer’?”"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.038.niza.html

Buddha does teach that beings are discerned, they can be objects of discernment,
"sattā paññāyantī".  Buddha did allow such possibility and refuted the idea
that there isn't any sattā or attakāro. But they are.

So "No person is walking, or eating." isn't correct according to AN 6.38


With best wishes,

Alex



#116166 	From: A T <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:11 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] control 	truth_aerator

Dear all,

Addition:

""Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It
is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the
difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one
perceives, that one cognizes. "
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html

One cannot experientially distinguish the difference between mind base
(manāyatana) and mental object base (dhammāyatana) because mind base contains
consciousness and mental-object-base contains other aggregates such as as
Feeling, perception and volitions.  Also manāyatana does not happen without
dhammāyatana, and dhammāyatana cannot occur without manāyatana.

So here as well, the teaching of 12 āyatana needs to be carefully examined so
that we would not to end up with reductionism that does not exist, and is
impossible in real world. Same with teaching on 18 dhātu .


"Just as two sheaves of reeds might stand leaning against each other, so too,
with name-and-form as condition, consciousness (comes to be); with consciousness
as condition, name-and-form (comes to be)...“If, friend, one were to remove
one of those sheaves of reeds, the other would fall,
and if one were to remove the other sheaf, the first would fall. So too, with
the cessation of name-and-form comes cessation of consciousness; with the
cessation of consciousness comes cessation of name-and-form."
SN12.67 (7) The Sheaves of Reeds - Bhikkhu Bodhi Translation.

So there is complex interdependence that doesn't have to be linear and
reductionist.

With metta,

Alex



#116167 	From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" <bhikkhu3@...>
Date: Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:58 am
Subject: Today is Esala Poya Day! 	bhikkhu5

Friends:
How to be a Real True Buddhist through Observance?

This Esala Poya day is the full-moon of July, which is noteworthy since on
this celebrated day:
1: The Blessed <http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/b/buddha.htm>
Buddha preached his First Sermon: The Dhammacakkappavattana
<http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.nymo.html>  Sutta.
2: The Bodhisatta was conceived in Queen Maya
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/maha/mahamaayaa.htm> , who dreamt
a white elephant entered her side.
3: The Blessed Buddha made the Great Withdrawal
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/g/gotama.htm>  from the world at
the age of 29 years.
4: The Blessed Buddha performed the Twin Miracle (yamaka-patihariya
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/y/yamaka_paatihaariya.htm> ) of
dual appearance.
5: The Blessed Buddha explained the AbhiDhamma
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/am/abhidhamma_pitaka.htm>  in the
Tavatimsa <http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/t/taavatimsa.htm>
heaven to his mother.
6: The ordination of Prince
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/maha/maha_arittha.htm>  Arittha at
Anuradhapura, under Arahat Mahinda
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/ma/mahinda.htm>  on Sri Lanka.
7: The foundation
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/maha/mahathupa.htm>  of the
celebrated Mahastupa
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/Pics/mahastupa.anurudhapura2.jpg>  &
enshrinement of relics by King
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/d/dutthagaamanii.htm>  Dutugemunu.
8: The next day the yearly 3 months rains retreat (vassa) of Buddhist
Bhikkhus
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/Buddhist.Dictionary/dic3_b.htm#Bhikkhu>
start.


The Buddha performing the Twin
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/y/yamaka_paatihaariya.htm>
Miracle of simultaneously producing water & flames from his body.

On such Uposatha Observance days:
Any Lay Buddhist simply joins the Three Refuges
<http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/tisarana.html>  and undertakes
the Five <http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/pancasila.html>  Precepts like
this: Newly bathed, shaved, white-clothed,
with clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue,
and bows first three times, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees and
head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms in front of the heart,
one recite these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice:


As long as this life lasts:
I hereby take refuge in the Buddha.
I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma.
I hereby take refuge in the Sangha.
I hereby seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time.
I hereby seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time.
I hereby seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time.
I hereby request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time.
I hereby request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time.
I hereby request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time.
I will hereby respect these Three Jewels
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_Three_Jewels.htm>  the rest of my
life!

I accept to respect & undertake these 5 training rules:
I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing.
I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing.
I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse.
I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Dishonesty.
I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs.
As long as this life lasts, I am thus protected by these 5 precepts...


Then, one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own
eyes & children!, since they protect you & all other beings much better
than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in & to this world!
This is the very start on the path towards Nibb�na -the Deathless Element-
This is the Noble Way to Peace, to Freedom, to Bliss, initiated by Morality
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Mighty_is_Morality.htm> ,
developed further by Dhamma-Study
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/essential.books.htm>  and fulfilled by
training of Meditation
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/Manual/Meditation.Manual.htm> ...

Today indeed is Pooya <http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html>  or
uposatha or observance day, where any lay Buddhist
normally keeps the Eight Precepts
<http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/atthasila.html>  from sunrise until the
next dawn...
If any wish an official recognition by the Bhikkhu-Sangha, they may simply
forward the lines starting with "I..." signed with name, date, town &
country
to me <mailto:what.buddha.said@...>  or join here
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Sangha_Entry.htm> . A public list of
this new Saddhamma-Sangha is here!
<http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Saddhamma_Sangha.htm>

The New Noble Community of Disciples: The Saddhamma Sangha:
http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Saddhamma_Sangha.htm

Can quite advantageously be Joined Here:
http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Sangha_Entry.htm

May your journey hereby be eased, light, swift and sweet. Never give up !!!


For Details on Uposatha Observance Days:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html
Have a nice & noble day!

Friendship is the Greatest!
  <http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Bhikkhu_Samahita> Bhikkhu
Sam�hita _/\_ *
http://What-Buddha-Said.net <http://what-buddha-said.net/>
Today is Esala Poya Day!


#116168 	From: "Ken H" <kenhowardau@yahoo.com.au>
Date: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:50 pm
Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening 	kenhowardau

Hi Alex,

Just a reminder before we lose track of our conversation:  we were talking about
people who claimed to be practising jhana  and/or satipatthana when in fact they
didn't even know what jhana and satipatthana were.

---------------
> A: Lets talk about Satipatthana instructions, especially about secluded place
and posture for anapanasati . In the sutta it says:

"And how does a monk remain focused on the body in & of itself?So what do the
commentaries say about ""having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree,
or to an empty building �" sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his
body erect "

(this instruction applies to some other aspects of the path as well).

What do commentaries say about seclusion?
--------------

KH: Aren't you just supporting what I was saying? Many people of different
faiths and philosophies like to go to a special place, adopt a special posture,
and do something they consider to be meditation.   That's fine if it it's what
they want to do, but let's not pretend it is what the Buddha taught.

Was that the point of your question? Were you saying, "The Buddha mentioned
postures and secluded places. Therefore, that must be what satipatthana is. It
must be a matter of sitting in a special way in a special place."?

Ken H



#116169 	From: "Robert E" <epsteinrob@...>
Date: Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:09 pm
Subject: Re: The Fourth Jhana: The Royal Road to Awakening - Ken H. 	epsteinrob

Hi Ken H.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

> N: First, let us consider the objects of jhaanacittas: these arise in
> a process and within one process cittas cannot change objects. This
> makes sense to me. There is very strong one-pointedness on one
> object, the meditation subject, and how could this be interrupted
> during one process of jhaanacittas.
>
> For a beginner, jhaanacitta may be one moment, but for advanced
> people, jhaanacittas may occur uninterruptedly for  along time, cven
> during a whole day.
>
> When for example infinite space is the object, the jhaanacittas in
> one process have just that object, they cannot change object.
>
> In the sutta the expression uninterrupted determined, anupada
> vavatthitaa, is used.
>
> Anupada: anu can mean following. pada is verse or unit of verses.
> Following at every step, continuous, repeated. Anupada"m, adverbial
> use: Close behind, immediately behind.
>
> The text says that Saariputta hads uninterrupted insight into
> dhammas: anupada vipassanaa.

Just wanted to point out an example of cittas occurring, as Nina mentions, "in a
process."  In other words, they are not conditioned one citta at a time, but are
determined as a sequence, a group or stream.  You have often denied the "stream
theory" of cittas in the context of "individual streams" for each person, but
here at least is a sequence of cittas that is not a one-citta universe
independent of others, but is a good example of cittas that are predetermined to
arise in a particular grouping.

There is no doubt that cittas arise one at a time, but that does not make for a
"single-citta" universe in the sense of cittas being isolated and "leaving
nothing behind" for the next citta.  These cittas are interdependently arisen.

Best,
Robert E.

= = = = = = = = = = =



#116170 	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...>
Date: Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:30 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Asked to share, .... 	sarahprocter...

Dear Howard N,

Thank you so much for kindly sharing your wonderful full introduction with
everyone on DSG. As Dieter commented, one of the best intros we've had here!

I apologise to you and everyone else for my very slow and limited responses
since we've been in Australia. We're very busy here, just for the month in our
home, with household chores, medical appts and so on after early morning ocean
swims (& recoveries). We don't run a car, so spend a fair amount of time walking
and taking buses around.

As I mentioned briefly (off-list), I'm sorry to hear about all your health
issues and am inspired by your courageous attitude and how the set-backs and
unusual experiences have in turn inspired you to explore the Buddhist teachings.

I'm glad Dieter has given you some helpful links. If you'd like to take a look
in 'bookmarks' on the DSG website, you'll also find more helpful links. I'd
particularly recommend "The Buddha's Path" or "Buddhism in Daily Life" by Nina
who writes here.

It sounds as though you and your wife have had some wonderful travels and live
in a lovely spot. I'm not on facebook, but pls take a browse through the DSG
photo albums and add your own 'Member' and 'significant other' photos there. I'd
love to see them. If you have any difficulty with the transfer, Pt (who's add
you gave) will give the necessary technical help. The same applies to anyone
else - pls share your photo with us! We also have a member James who is also
happy to assist in anyway with these (even giving touch ups if required!!).

Your comments and qu about your stroke and damaged left hemisphere are
interesting.  A long time ago when I studied psychology, we studied split brain
issues. You asked about how Buddhism thinks about these issues and past life
ideas.

What we learn in Buddhism is that there is only ever one moment of consciousness
and this consciousness is conditioned and caused by many different factors. Like
an electric current, the series of consciousness run on and on indefinitely
while there are causes for them to do so. Suddently we may think in an unusual
way or a child might seem to be like "an old soul" or identical twins show
completely different characters. None of this is surprising from a Buddhist
point of view as the accumulated or habitual tendencies are affected by ways of
thinking and experiencing not just in this lifetime but in countless lifetimes
in the past. In fact these lifetimes are so countless that we say everyone we
meet has been our friend, enemy, child and so on and we never know what
tendencies of ways of thinking will 'pop up' next.

What is important is the present understanding and wise attention to what is
being experienced now. We can speculate about past lives - or future lives for
that matter - but this is speculation. It won't bring any liberation at the
present moment. This is why we appreciate the many reminders by the Buddha, such
as this one from a sutta (a Buddhist discourse), called the Bhaddekaratta Sutta
(One Single Excellent Night) in MN, transl by Bodhi/Nanamoli.

"'Let not a person revive the past
or on the future build his hopes;
For the past has been left behind
And the future has not been reached.
Instead with insight let him see
Each presently arisen state;
Let him know that and be sure of it,
Invincibly, unshakeably.
Today Death may come, who knows?
No bargain with Mortality
Can keep him and his hordes away.
But one who dwells thus ardently,
Relentlessly, by day, by night-
It is he, the Peaceful Sage has said,
Who has had a single excellent night.' "

With regard to your qus on 'Source', I think Nina answered. Generally, speaking,
given the shortage of time, our main concern is with the understanding that
leads to liberation. The source of existence as a living being is ignorance and
attachment. It is the eradication of ignorance and attachment which brings about
the very end of such existence only. Otherwise those series of consciousness I
mention continue on and an indefinitely, life after life.

Metta

Sarah
p.s Hope you don't mind being addressed as Howard N for easy identification of
posts by everyone. Btw, we all forget to 'trim' sometimes, so we just appreciate
your good intentions and efforts!

--- On Sat, 9/7/11, UziYaH <uziyah@...> wrote:

       Relative to a post I sent Sarah privately, she responded with, in part, "I
do hope you'll also consider sharing some/all of the content below on the list
as others will be most interested to read it too."
...



#116171 	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...>
Date: Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:49 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Mental unpleasant feeling, grieving. 	sarahprocter...

Dear Lukas,

--- On Sat, 9/7/11, Lukas <szmicio@...> wrote:
>Why is that there is so much mental unpleasant feeling, this can really struck
me, and I am wandering like hipnotize in grieve. What are the conditions for
less grieving, for less domanassa and stories with domanassa. After many years
of practice, this is still here, no more no less.
...
S: I always appreciate your good questions. Many people will have just the same
ones, so you help everyone by raising them.

Azita and Nina have already given helpful responses.

Can we say that the dosa and domanassa (grief and unpleasant feeling) arise when
we're absorbed in thoughts about ourselves, about how life isn't according to
our wishes, to our lobha (attachment)?

Didn't the Buddha teach the 1st Noble Truth that life is dukkha, that the 5
khandhas of grasping are dukkha? We don't get what we want, we're separated from
what is dear, we cling to all the mental and physical phenomena around us?

It may seem that there are long periods of grief and unpleasant feeling, but at
moments of seeing and hearing, there is no unpleasant feeling. At all the
moments we're experiencing pleasant sense objects, the cittas that follow are
with pleasant feeling or neutral feeling at least. At the moments we're showing
kindness to others around us - for example, on your long bus journey, I'm sure
you helped other passengers with luggage and other assistance - there is no
unpleasant feeling. At moments of enjoying the scenery with attachment or at
moments of abstaining from harmful speech or action with wholesome sila, there
is no aversion. And then, whenever there is wise reflection on the Dhamma, even
if it's not yet satipatthana, there is calm, there is no unpleasant feeling at
all.

So usually, it is the thinking, the dwelling on experiences concerning ourselves
without any wise reflection that there is is unpleasant feeling conditioned by
the strong clinging to ourselves, our feelings and "Me, me, me".! As Azita said,
for some people or on some occasions, such as a great loss, there is much more
unpleasant feeling, but these are all conditioned dhammas which pass. Here, we
are all so very fortunate and blessed to have heard the Buddha's Teachings. You
have come across the deep Dhamma at a relatively young age and this is the
greatest refuge you will ever have in life. It's far more precious than a
retirement pension, a job, a happy family life or all the worldly goods
imaginable. For me, a day never passes without a real appreciation and gratitude
for this refuge and the little understanding that has been accumulated to date.

You have wonderful friends here, Lukas and you have a great appreciation of the
value of understanding present namas and rupas.

Pls let us know how your trip to UK goes - the bus journey with all the
opportunities for helping others, the temple visit, the discussions with Alan if
you meet up and so on.

Patience, courage and good cheer!!

Metta

Sarah
=======



#116172 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:17 pm
Subject: Death 	nilovg

Dear Phil,

I thought of you when reading to Lodewijk from my "Lessons in
Detachment" (India talk):
< Through satipatth�na we shall have more understanding of life and
death.
We read in the �Kindred Sayings� (V, Mah�vagga, Book III, Ch 2, � 3,
Cunda) that the novice Cunda was in attendance on S�riputta who
passed finally away. Cunda and �nanda came to see the Buddha and told
him about S�riputta�s passing away. �nanda said that he was
distressed by his death. The Buddha asked him whether when S�riputta
passed away he took with him the constituents of virtue,
concentration, wisdom, release and release by knowing and seeing.
�nanda answered that he did not and spoke the following words:

�But he was to me an adviser, one who was well grounded. He was an
instructor, one who could arouse, incite and gladden. He was
unwearied in teaching the Norm [Dhamma]. He was the patron of those
who lived the righteous life along with him. We bear in mind that
essence of the Norm, that patronage of the Norm possessed by the
venerable S�riputta, lord.�
�Have I not aforetime declared to you this, �nanda, - how in all
things that are dear and delightful there is the nature of diversity,
the nature of separation, the nature of otherness? How is it
possible, �nanda, in the case of what is born, what is become, what
is compounded, what is transitory,- how is it possible to have one�s
wish fulfilled: Oh! may it not perish? Nay, such a thing cannot be.�

We then read that the Buddha exhorted �nanda to be an island to
himself, a refuge to himself, taking no outer refuge, but to take the
Dhamma as his refuge in developing satipatth�na.
Through satipatth�na we can gradually learn that in the ultimate
sense there is not a person who exists, only fleeting phenomena, n�ma
and r�pa.
Acharn Sujin asked me: before becoming Nina, what was there? There
was a previous life but we do not remember this now. From the moment
of our birth we lead our present life, we are �this person�, and we
experience happiness and suffering. However, in the ultimate sense,
no person exists, neither in this life nor in the preceding life.
There are only impersonal elements which arise and fall away. Each
citta that arises falls away immediately to be succeeded by the next
citta. This can be seen as momentary death and birth. Thus, when it
is time to depart we do not lose anything, it is the same as the
departure at the end of our former life. In the next life there will
be again the experience of different objects, n�ma and r�pa, which
arise and fall away. It is fortunate that in this life we still have
the opportunity to hear true Dhamma.
Ignorance is like a black curtain, it conceals the characteristics
of  impermanence, dukkha and anatt�. >

------
Nina.



#116173 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:38 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] mana - conceit, all kind comparing in that? 	nilovg

Dear Lukas,
Op 13-jul-2011, om 11:56 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven:

> What's the characteristic of mana, conceit?
------
N:Clinging to the importance of 'oneself'. It may accompany cittas
rooted in attachment, lobha, but it does not accompany cittas rooted
in attachment and accompanied by wrong view. Conceit is different
from wrong view. Even when you not take the khandhas for self, you
can still think: my khandhas are better than someone else's, or my
khandhas are so important.
-------
>
> L: When there is comparing my practice to others or my current
> expirience to the one from past, is there a mana in such a moment?
> Does all comparings, even though they are not including Self, me -
> idea are mana, of mana characteristics?
-------
N: There is conceit when you compare yourself with others while you
find yourself important, having the idea: I am better, I am equal, I
am less.
The Bodhisatta at his last birth, said: I am the best, I am the
Eldest in the world, but without conceit.
Also when there is no comparing, there may still be conceit.
--------
Your other post:
L: Does clinging clings to concepts or only to realities. I mean can
lobha cling to a concept or rather to the characteristic(citta) of
experiencing a concept?

--------

N: Lobha can cling to realities and to concepts. It clings to all
objects, except lokuttara dhammas. These cannot be objects of clinging.

Don't we cling to stories?

-------

Nina.



#116174 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:46 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Does actual moment of insight require thoughts? 	nilovg

Dear Vince,
Op 13-jul-2011, om 0:13 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven:

> "Since, Bahiya, there is for you in the seen, only the seen,
> in the heard, only the heard,...
>
> so with this in mind, from here there is also a conclusion of no-
> error in all the
> dhammas arising in the present moment. Reality is perfect in itself
> and the only
> error is our delusion.
--------
N: Attachment and all defilements are realities, dhammas, but can we
say that they are perfect? Perhaps you mean something else when using
this term. We can say that they are true.
--------
>
> V: So I talk about such notion of "perfection" in this practical
> sense (like some
> type of equanimity, perhaps).
> I have read inside Abhidhamma about equanimity and other related
> ways. However,
> I ignore if there is any direct clear mention to some "perfection"
> of Reality or
> dhammas.
>  Do you remember some text talking
> about a "perfection" in a similar way?
-------
N: No, only in the sense of paramis, the good qualities the
Bodhisatta developed. But from what you write here, you may rather
mean: truth. Having a characteristic that cannot be altered.
-----
Nina.


#116175 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:03 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] control 	nilovg

Dear Alex,
Op 13-jul-2011, om 20:16 heeft A T het volgende geschreven:

> Dear Nina, (attn: Robert E) all,
>
> >N: This example is more complicated, it involves a story, a
> situation.
> >No person is walking, or eating. As the Buddha said: we have to see
> >the body in the body, etc. No self in the body.
> >==================================================================
>
> But as you know, the Buddha did affirm the existence of
> conventional persons and things. He OFTEN spoke conventionally and
> it was helpful for listeners to reach Arhatship.
>
> I also remember a commentary quote that says that conventional
> teaching is as useful as ultimate. In other words it is NOT the
> case between true and false.
>
-------
N: You think about the two ways of teaching:in a conventional sense
and in the ultimate sense. Some people could attain enlightenment
when hearing the teaching in a conventional sense and some when
hearing the teaching in the ultimate sense.
-------
> A:
> Let us not forget the limits of analysis. For example we are told
> about 5 aggregates.  But this is a way of analyzing, and none of
> the separate khandhas be taken as self existing things.
>
> One cannot divide a person into 5 aggregates and put form (rūpa)
> into one pile, feeling (vedanā) in 2nd pile, perception (saññā)
> in 3rd pile, mental formation (saṅkhāra) in 4th pile, and
> consciousness (viññāṇa) in 5th pile. Some of the aggregates
> cannot even occur without others and be experientially differentiated
>
-------
N: Right, the five khandhas arise together. But sati can only be
aware of one reality at a time. When there is awareness of feeling
there cannot be awareness of citta at the same time. Feeling and
citta have different characteristics. It is the same with the
aayatanas and dhatus you mention in your following post.
Sati that is aware of khandhas or paramatthas arises in another
process shortly afterwards. It takes only one characteristic at a
time as object of awareness.
-------
>
> A: Difference between them is conceptual!
>
-------
N: They have different characteristics that can be experienced
without thinking. Should we call this conceptual?
-----
>
>
> A: 165. By oneself (Attanā'va) is evil done; by oneself is one
> defiled. ....
> So we either have a huge contradiction, in one part of the canon
> the Buddha talks about atta, in another He denies it. Or we have to
> be careful to distinguish between wrong conception of Eternal Soul
> which the Buddha denied, vs real conventional empiric individual.
>
-------
N: It is evident that when speaking about 'by oneself' the Buddha did
not mean an atman. We could say: by these khandhas we call ourselves,
knowing that these arise and fall away each moment. We do not have to
repeat: by the five khandhas or this is written by the khandhas we
call Nina. Very awkward in speech.
--------
>
> A: So "No person is walking, or eating." isn't correct according to
> AN 6.38
>
--------
> N: When explaining satipatthaana and the objects of awareness and
> right understanding it is helpful to know that there is no person
> walking. You find this in the Co to the satipatthanasutta.
>
----------
Nina.
>

#116176 	From: Lukas <szmicio@...>
Date: Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:49 pm
Subject: akusala siila 	szmicio

Dear friends,
What's the meaning of akusal siila? Is it all kind of akusala or maybe
non-refraining moments only?
Or restraining with akusala?

Best wishes
Lukas

#116177 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:14 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concepts can lead to awakening 	upasaka_howard

Hi, Ken (and Alex) -

In a message dated 7/14/2011 1:50:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
kenhowardau@... writes:

Hi  Alex,

Just a reminder before we lose track of our conversation:   we were talking
about people who claimed to be practising jhana  and/or  satipatthana when
in fact they didn't even know what jhana and satipatthana  were.

---------------
> A: Lets talk about Satipatthana  instructions, especially about secluded
place and posture for anapanasati . In  the sutta it says:

"And how does a monk remain focused on the body in  & of itself?So what do
the commentaries say about ""having gone to the  wilderness, to the shade of
a tree, or to an empty building â€" sits down  folding his legs crosswise,
holding his body erect "

(this instruction  applies to some other aspects of the path as well).

What do  commentaries say about seclusion?
--------------

KH: Aren't you just  supporting what I was saying? Many people of different
faiths and philosophies  like to go to a special place, adopt a special
posture, and do something they  consider to be meditation.   That's fine if it
it's what they want  to do, but let's not pretend it is what the Buddha
taught.
------------------------------------------------
HCW:
     The Buddha was rather clear in his sutta teachings  on meditation, but,
of course, direct person-to-person instruction wasn't widely  reported, and
specific instruction is important, necessarily differing from  person to
person.
----------------------------------------------
Was that the point of your question? Were you saying, "The  Buddha
mentioned postures and secluded places. Therefore, that must be what 
satipatthana
is. It must be a matter of sitting in a special way in a special  place."?
-------------------------------------------------
HCW:
     People aren't stupid, Ken. What was taught was that  for meditation,
particularly for entering jhanas, physical seclusion from gross  distraction
was advised.
===============================
With metta,
Howard


Seamless Interdependence

/A change in  anything is a change in  everything/

(Anonymous)

#116178 	From: Lukas <szmicio@...>
Date: Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:10 pm
Subject: To the DSG. 	szmicio

Dear friends,
That's part of a Sarah message to me. 

Sarah: You have come across the deep Dhamma at a relatively young age and this
is the greatest refuge you will ever have in life. It's far more
precious than a retirement pension, a job, a happy family life or all
the worldly goods imaginable. For me, a day never passes without a real
appreciation and gratitude for this refuge and the little understanding
that has been accumulated to date.
You have wonderful friends here, Lukas and you have a great appreciation of the
value of understanding present namas and rupas.

L: I have this thought's that maybe my health is not good. I smoked a lot of
ciggaretts and in a huge amount for years. Now I feel pains in a body. I was
killing myself by coca cola and other stuff all my adult life. This is my deep
ignorance, and my body could have not resist for long time. Now I dont drink
even coffee. But still has a lot of regrets and thinkings that i may die young.
I dont want to loose Dhamma I came accross.

Lukas

#116179 	From: A T <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:23 pm
Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening 	truth_aerator

Hello KenH, all,

>KH: Aren't you just supporting what I was saying?
>=================================================

So according to you Ptsm, VsM, and suttas are not correct?


>KH:Many people of different faiths and philosophies like to go to a >special
place, adopt a special posture, and do something they consider >to be
meditation.   That's fine if it it's what they want to do, but >let's not
pretend it is what the Buddha taught.
>
>Was that the point of your question? Were you saying, "The Buddha >mentioned
postures and secluded places. Therefore, that must be what >satipatthana is. It
must be a matter of sitting in a special way in a >special place."?
>================================================================

If you would have read the quote you would know the reason. Seclusion, postures,
etc are helpful/supportive elements.


Visuddhimagga VIII,

153. Gone to the forest ...or to an empty place: this signifies that he has
found an abode favourable to the development of concentration through
mindfulness of breathing. For this bhikkhu's mind has long been dissipated
among visible data, etc., as its object, and it does not want to
mount the object of concentration-through-mindfulness-of-breathing; it
runs off the track like a chariot harnessed to a wild ox.41 Now suppose a
cowherd [269] wanted to tame a wild calf that had been reared on a wild
cow's milk, he would take it away from the cow and tie it up apart with
a rope to a stout post dug into the ground; then the calf might dash to and fro,
but being unable to get away, it would eventually sit down or lie
down by the post. So too, when a bhikkhu wants to tame his own mind which has
long been spoilt by being reared on visible data, etc., as object for
its food and drink, he should take it away from visible data, etc., as object
and bring it into the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty place and
tie it up there to the post of in-breaths and out-breaths with the rope of
mindfulness. And so his mind may then dash to and fro when it no longer gets the
objects it was formerly used to, but being unable to break the rope of
mindfulness and get away, it sits down, lies down, by that object under the
influence of access and absorption.

157. ...So the Blessed One said 'gone to the forest', etc., to point out a
forest abode as a place likely to hasten his advancement.


Please read the reason for seclusion. If you have any issues, take them with
Ven. Buddhaghosa and Buddha Himself.


with metta,

Alex



#116180 	From: A T <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:37 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] control 	truth_aerator

Dear Nina, all,


>N: You think about the two ways of teaching:in a conventional sense
>and in the ultimate sense. Some people could attain enlightenment
>when hearing the teaching in a conventional sense and some when
>hearing the teaching in the ultimate sense.
>=================================================================


The unfortunate thing is that some people dismiss the "conventional" teachings
found in the suttas through the usage of the "ultimate". The trick is to read
the "conventional" through the prism of "ultimate" so as to not find what
"conventional" teaching has said because conventional is not found in the
"ultimate".  Almost like looking for a pear (fruit) in a basket where there is
only an apple (fruit), then not finding it, declaring the basket to be empty of
fruits.


>N:It is evident that when speaking about 'by oneself' the Buddha did
>not mean an atman. We could say: by these khandhas we call ourselves,
>knowing that these arise and fall away each moment. We do not have to
>repeat: by the five khandhas or this is written by the khandhas we
>call Nina. Very awkward in speech.
>=================================================================

Right. So whenever someone uses conventional speech (such as teaching meditation
instructions) it doesn't mean that one believes in a Self or control (its an
excellent occasion to see the lack of control). One simply uses words to point 
to something. This is important. Words are words, but experience is experience.
This is one of the reasons why one can't give someone awakening. You can't give
the experience, but you can point the way.

Thanks for your other responses in that thread.

With best wishes,

Alex
#116181 	From: A T <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:54 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] control 	truth_aerator
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Dear Nina, all,

>N: the five khandhas arise together. But sati can only be
>aware of one reality at a time. When there is awareness of feeling
>there cannot be awareness of citta at the same time. Feeling and
>citta have different characteristics.
>================================================================


But didn't the sutta explicitly said that feeling, perception and consciousness
cannot be examined separetely?

""Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It
is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the
difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one
perceives, that one cognizes. "
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html

Please note that one cannot separate one from another, and one cannot delineate
the difference among them.

"what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes" .


With metta,

Alex



#116182 	From: A T <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:20 am
Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening 	truth_aerator
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Dear KenH, all,

part 2:

>KH:Aren't you just supporting what I was saying? Many people of >different
>faiths and philosophies like...
>================================================

Various religions promise heaven after this life for those who believe in them
and follow their rules, while Buddha teaches how to make all suffering cease
even in this life, how to reach "bliss of Nibbana" (or something close) even
prior to dying. And even before reaching paths and fruits, successful meditation
helps one be more and more happy, until happiness becomes permanent.

As you know, 8 qualities of Dhamma is "Svākkhāto, Sandiṭṭhiko, Akāliko,
Ehipassiko, Opanayiko, Paccattaṃ veditabbo viññūhi".

It is supposed to be "visible here and now and timeless" (Sandiṭṭhiko,
Akāliko), not believed in and having to wait for 100,000 lifetimes of
accumulations to have a direct vision of it (stream or higher).

(below I am criticizing myself)
It seems that unless one puts right effort, one will not get results, and then
say "I told you so! No control. Awakening is long time in the future". I get
what I deserve....

When it comes to philosophy, it is interesting, but it is just that. As you
know, the philosophy of Buddhism (and it remains as such until one can actually
experience it rather than think and reason about it) has progressed a lot. There
are different Abhidhammas and more advanced teachings. Some discussions seem to
border on "how many angels can fit on a point of the needle". You may argue
based on Authority about authenticity of such and such Abhidhamma, but so do
those other schools. You may say how evil of them to separate, but there are two
sides to every separation. The "winner" doesn't need to be the one with correct
doctrine, just the one who won (by force, sophism, or whatever). It is also the
winner that gets to write the history from its own point of view (which of
course is biased in its favor).

Sometimes to talk about super abstract things without direct experience of them,
is almost like in other philosophies/religions.�  A christian may say "I believe
the Bible. It says so, I believe it, that settles it. Your book is from a man,
ours is from God on Earth, Jesus Christ."�  :)

:)

Yours in Dhamma,

Alex



#116183 	From: "ptaus1" <ptaus1@...>
Date: Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:39 am
Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening 	ptaus1

Hi Alex,

> A: Different mistakes have different amount of harmfulness. A "mistake" here
may simply be lack of right view, but no wrong view.

pt: Yes, that case is possible. The scary bit is the case when just one
"mistake" equates to arising of wrong view about the path. That would set you up
on the wrong path from then on, and possibly influence the thinking and practice
for many lifetimes, until someone actually points out the mistake and it is
actually understood as wrong.

> A: Since we do not start with perfect wisdom, it is natural that mistakes will
be made. An important point is to learn from them, try not to do them again and
do one's best.

pt: I think we differ on gauging our own ability to actually spot the mistake
and learn from it when it comes to development of wisdom, etc. My understanding
atm is that my ability there is very low, and the only way to learn most of the
time is if someone else points out the mistake I'm making or could possibly
make.

> A: Not doing anything kusala is a mistake, perhaps a much bigger one than
doing kusala and making some mistake there.

pt: As pointed out many times, that's a strawman argument. Nobody's saying don't
engage in kusala. The only thing we are being warned about here is the danger of
taking akusala for kusala. It doesn't mean that you are doing it, but I find the
reminders useful because I usually do mistake the two.

> A: We can't drop like a log of wood and not do anything.

pt: Another strawman argument. Rather than being told do this or that, I'd say
we are usually being encouraged here to understand whether there's kusala or
akusala at present, regardless of what one is doing at the time.

> A: If the mistake is with wrong view. But physical action itself doesn't need
to be with wrong view. It can be disassociated from wrong view.

pt: Okay, anything is possible. My main worry are the instances of wrong view in
connection with the path, as that sets you up on the wrong path from then on.

> A: The mistake may be when kusala citta arises disassociated from right view.
This mistake may happen in meditation.

pt: So you mean kusala citta arises without the root of amoha? Okay, in that
case, even though it's kusala citta, there's no development so to speak in terms
of bhavana, but I wouldn't necessarily call it a mistake because it doesn't
accumulate akusala.

> A: Wrong views can be with putting on a cloth, eating and doing daily stuff.
> Does this means that these things impediments to right view? Does this mean
that one shouldn't eat, drink, sleep, put on cloth because one may develop wrong
views?

pt: Yet another strawman argument. Activities are not cittas, right? So one and
the same activity can be done with kusala or akusala cittas. So, again we are
warned here about the cases when we mistake kusala for akusala, not about
activities and whether we should eat or not, etc.

And that brings us to the key issue - confusing activities with kusala cittas.
It's the citta that can be a/kusala, not the activity. So the biggest problem I
see is when I confuse an activity (such as meditation, or some sort of ritual)
for kusala, while in fact, the activity is riding on the back of akusala cittas.
That's how the wrong path develops imo. So when we (or the suttas) say
"meditation, concentration" etc, we tend to assume they come on the back
of.kusala cittas, but that of course is not the case (most of the time), so it's
useful to be reminded about it.

> A: While these activities are not mahakusala, insight meditation is.

pt: Of course, only you can know whether the citta is kusala or not at the time
of whatever you are doing. Other people's job is to alert you to the possibility
that you're mistaking akusala for kusala. Doesn't mean that you are, but I
appreciate the reminders cause I usually do mistake the two. It's sort of like
when you ask for directions, and if the person is decent, he'll tell you the
way, as well as alert you to the problems to expect along the way.

> A: It is called gradual development. One has to start somewhere. If one never
starts even with 1 step, one will not ever get to the destination.

pt: Strawman again, nobody is advising you not to start, and the whole premise
is a bit pointless in light of conditionality, anatta, etc. Again, the only
thing we are warned against are the possible mistakes (wrong view, etc). It
doesn't mean you are making the actual mistake, but it helps in case you are.

> A: Imagine if the toddler decides not to walk until he is certain not to fall
down.

pt: As pointed out before, I don't think such analogies apply to development of
wisdom because wisdom and ignorance are not the same entity (like a toddler who
remains a toddler regardless of whether he fails or succeeds), because wisdom
does not develop when there's more ignorance arising - usually wisdom conditions
more wisdom, and ignorance conditions more ignorance.

> > pt: Making a mistake means there are no wholesome things happening at >that
instance.
>
> A: Or kusala citta disassociated from right view.

pt: Well, ok, sure, though I wouldn't necessarily count a kusala citta without
panna a mistake, as it doesn't contribute to developing of akusala.

> A: It is not so much as ontological first cause, but rather the point that in
order to become good at something one needs to practice. At first the practice
will not be fully correct, but as time goes on, it will if one gathers wisdom
along the way.

pt: Again, I don't think the analogy applies. Perhaps coming up with better
analogies would help in understanding these issues. I mean, when wisdom arises,
the practice is already correct at the time, there's nothing extra that can be
done at the time (due to conditions, anatta and all that). So you are already
good at it at the time. Now, when akusala arises, there's no kusala at the time,
even though one may be wishing to have more kusala. So, again, there's nothing
extra that can be done at the time.

What I'm trying to say, when we talk about things in general, we can talk about
wisdom, path, habits, etc, improving, but when we're talking practical, then
wisdom, mindfulness, etc, are either present right now, or they are not. And
whatever is there at the time cannot be changed. But we encourage eachother to
understand what's arising, so maybe next time, whatever arises will arise
together with wisdom.

> A: I often read many "shoulds" in KS writing, so it shouldn't be taken as not
doing anything.
>
> Here I seem to read about dislike of word "should"

pt: Not sure what you mean. I don't think posts here should be understood in
terms of "do this, don't do that" (as activities), but rather as an
encouragement to understand what is arising at the moment (so is it a/kusala
citta) and especially be alert to the possibility of confusing akusala for
kusala.

> A: Things happen (effects) on their own only when the causes have been set. If
one doesn't set kusala habits, the things happening will be as a general rule,
Akusala.

pt: Okay, but the issue is how "does one set kusala habits"? Is there anything
more to it than hearing about the value of good habits, and then realising this
experientially upon the arising of the habit? I think my contention is that
there's nothing else that could be done, and in fact, whatever is done will be
to the detriment of development of the good habit. Let's see how well that
hypothesis holds.

Best wishes
pt



#116184 	From: "Ken H" <kenhowardau@yahoo.com.au>
Date: Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:21 am
Subject: Re: The Fourth Jhana: The Royal Road to Awakening - Ken H. 	kenhowardau

Hi Robert E,

------------
<. . .>
> RE: Just wanted to point out an example of cittas occurring, as Nina mentions,
"in a process."  In other words, they are not conditioned one citta at a time,
but are determined as a sequence, a group or stream.
------------

KH: Citta processes range between one and seventeen in length, and in all cases
there is only ever one citta at a time. Each citta conditions the next one to
arise.

---------------------
> RE: You have often denied the "stream theory" of cittas in the context of
"individual streams" for each person,
---------------------

KH: I can't imagine what you mean by that. I have never denied that each citta
was conditioned by the one that preceded it, have I?

That is all that is needed in order to form the concept of an individual person.

-----------------------------
> RE: but
here at least is a sequence of cittas that is not a one-citta universe
independent of others, but is a good example of cittas that are predetermined to
arise in a particular grouping.
-----------------------------

KH: There are no groups of cittas in a sequence of cittas; there is always just
one citta at a time.

-----------------------------
> RE: There is no doubt that cittas arise one at a time,
----------------------------

KH: Oh, sorry, I should have read ahead. :-)

-------------------
> RE: but that does not make for a "single-citta" universe in the sense of
cittas being isolated and "leaving nothing behind" for the next citta.
-------------------

KH: One citta at a time does indeed make for a single citta universe. That is
because the citta is all there is. When it falls away everything falls away.
Nothing remains. The next citta will be an entirely new universe, no part of it
having come from the past.

--------------------------
> RE: These cittas are interdependently arisen.
--------------------------

KH: I wonder what you mean by "interdependently" as opposed to "dependently."

Ken H



#116185 	From: "ptaus1" <ptaus1@...>
Date: Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:33 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated 	ptaus1

Hi RobE,

Re 114895

I remember an analogy which seems to explain nicely both the transfer of
tendencies from one citta to another, as well as the working of conditionality,
without the need for storage place, substance, etc. The analogy is that of
colliding billiard balls. When one ball is rolling, it has a spin, speed,
direction, etc - so lets say these would stand for tendencies, or conditions.
And then, when this ball hits another ball, these tendencies or conditions are
transfered to the other ball by influencing its spin, direction, etc, of the
other ball.

Anyway, I guess what I find useful in this example is that there's no substance
transfered from one ball to the other, so nothing lasting is necessary, nor is
some sort of external permanent storage required, nor are the tendencies (spin,
direction, speed) something substantial, etc. And yet, one travelling ball
influences the next and transfers some of its characteristics for that one split
moment of contact and never again. But even that is enough, sort of like one
citta conditions the next one and never again.

Best wishes
pt



#116188 	From: A T <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:14 am
Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening 	truth_aerator
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Hello Pt, all,

>pt: Yes, that case is possible. The scary bit is the case when just one
>"mistake" equates to arising of wrong view about the path. That would >set >you
up on the wrong path from then on, and possibly influence the >thinking >and
practice for many lifetimes, until someone actually points >out the >mistake and
it is actually understood as wrong.
>================================================================


So do you propose not even trying because one can make mistakes? How do you
propose one does  anapanasati as satipatthana for example? Do you think that I
believe in a Eternal Soul (Atta) that can do thing, or that dhammas are
permanent (nicca) and pleasant (sukha)? Do you think that every Buddhist who
meditates believes in  nicca, sukha, Atta?  I hear from KenH and others such
warnings, but not how to do it right. Or do you think there is this conspiracy
to smuggle in Anapanasati, 32 bodyparts, 10 corpses contemplation, and other
satipatthana exercises (while omitting the warnings not to do them) into the
Dhamma and commentaries such as VsM?  Buddha and Ven. Buddhaghosa didn't seem to
put such kinds of warnings when talking about these. And neither is there any
hint that one must already have this habit in order to start doing the practice.
Don't you think that Suttas and VsM have sufficient instructions? We can always
refer to them, and I would prefer DIRECT quotations.


If the danger in intentional development is because it can grow self view, then:
Don't study Dhamma because you might misinterpret it and get even more deluded
and set back even more on the path.  Don't do anything because that might set
you back. Don't put on the cloth (that controls the temperature of the external
body), don't eat or drink because that can delude one that Self eats and
drinks... Don't get up from the bed because one can misinterpret it as Self who
can move limbs and alter the location of rupas, not to mention direct awareness
at such non-existing concepts as walking with right or left foot. Furthermore,
everything happens due to conditions. Great. Live the life as you want (which
requires doing things, often minor akusala), but don't meditate (potentially
maha kusala) as that would be doing things. Doing acting with kilesas is
permissible, but never is it fine to resist them and develop kusala.

Sure everything is conditioned and there is no Freedom of Will. Does this
rejects the fact that things do occur, and actions have results? Isn't it better
that kusala, especially maha kusala, occurs rather than akusala? Does this
reject the need for effort and abandoning akusala things?


Does ultimate teaching in any way reject helpful conventional supports?


VsM IV,2
[THE EIGHTEEN FAULTS OF A MONASTERY]
Herein, one that is unfavourable has any one of eighteen faults.
These are: largeness, newness, dilapidatedness, a nearby road, a pond,
[edible] leaves, flowers, fruits, famousness, a nearby city, nearby timber
trees, nearby arable fields, presence of incompatible persons, a nearby
port of entry, nearness to the border countries, nearness to the frontier of a
kingdom, unsuitability, lack of good friends. [119] One with any of
these faults is not favourable. He should not live there.

[Alex: Where did Buddhaghosa suggest that these do not matter as any place is
good place?!]

20. Then he should sever the lesser impediments (Ch. HI, �28): one
living in such a favourable monastery should sever any minor impediments
that he may still have, that is to say, long head hair, nails, and
body hair should be cut, mending and patching of old robes should be
done, or those that are soiled should be dyed. If there is a stain on the
bowl the bowl should be baked. The bed, chair, etc., should be cleaned
up. These are the details for the clause 'Then he should sever the lesser
impediments'.
==================================================================

[Alex: Same thing]

The point is far more than "oh, it is simply for samatha practice". It does show
that conventionals do play a role and they can hinder maha kusala development.
It is not the case that any place is a good as other.


In MN17 the Buddha does talk that if at some place you don't get INSIGHT,
maggaphala, then change to the place where you will, even if it requires
physical privations.

http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/017-vanapattha\
-sutta-e1.html


Empty places are not translated as states of the mind by the commentators, and
neither in the suttas.  VsM VIII, 153.

VsM 157. ...So the Blessed One said 'gone to the forest', etc., to point out a
forest abode as a place likely to hasten his advancement.


Again VsM talk about places that can hasten one's development...

Again, I do not believe that Buddha really meant that place doesn't count even
though He said that it did. He didn't just talk about samatha, but mindfulness,
insight and noble paths that cut off defilements.

Neither the suttas nor commentaries seem to suggest that they are to be taken
merely as descriptions and not to be followed unless one is already in the habit
of doing so.

With metta,

Alex



#116189 	From: "Ken H" <kenhowardau@yahoo.com.au>
Date: Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:30 am
Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening 	kenhowardau

Hi Alex and Pt,

Don't mind me; just interrupting again.

--------------
> A: We can't drop like a log of wood and not do anything.

<. . .>

pt: Okay, anything is possible.
--------------

KH: Exactly! There is no telling what will happen next. We probably won't drop
like a log of wood, but we could (e.g., if struck by lightning, a bullet, a
massive heart-attack, or by some silly inclination to imitate a log of wood). We
will probably continue at the keyboard, typing sensibly - or, again, doing
something silly - no one can tell.

Ultimately everything is dependent on conditions; there is *no* control.

Ken H



#116190 	From: upasaka@...
Date: Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:07 am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concepts can lead to awakening 	upasaka_howard

Hi, Ken (and Alex & pt) -

In a message dated 7/14/2011 7:31:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
kenhowardau@... writes:

Ultimately everything is dependent on conditions; there is *no*  control.
===================================
     What exactly is this "control" there is none  of? Yes, everything is
dependent on conditions, which are simply dhammas. That's  all there is:
dhammas. Among those dhammas are acts of will. What  exactly are you denying?
When you say there is "no control," do you mean "no  controller"? That is, of
course, quite so.

With metta,
Howard


Seamless Interdependence

/A change in  anything is a change in  everything/

(Anonymous)


#116191 	From: "Ken H" <kenhowardau@yahoo.com.au>
Date: Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:25 am
Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening 	kenhowardau

Hi Alex,

-----
>> KH: Aren't you just supporting what I was saying?
>>

>A: So according to you Ptsm, VsM, and suttas are not correct?
--------------

KH: I am trying to keep our conversation on its original track. Most modern-day
Buddhist meditators don't even know what the Buddha taught: they just do
something vaguely called "meditation" and thereby consider themselves to be
Buddhist.

--------------
<. . .>
>> KH:Was that the point of your question? Were you saying, "The Buddha
>mentioned postures and secluded places. Therefore, that must be what
satipatthana is. It must be a matter of sitting in a special way in a >special
place."?
>>

> A: If you would have read the quote you would know the reason. Seclusion,
postures, etc are helpful/supportive elements.
---------------

KH: I won't ask what your understanding of the word "elements" is, I will try to
keep on track by asking: Of what is sitting in a special place supportive? Is it
supportive of jhana? Satipatthana?

If it is supportive of one or both of those things then what is the meaning of
"jhana" and "satipatthana"? Let's not stop at "sitting" and "special places" and
forget the most important part.

Ken H



#116192 	From: A T <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:40 am
Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening 	truth_aerator
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Hi KenH,

>KH: I am trying to keep our conversation on its original track. Most
>modern-day Buddhist meditators don't even know what the Buddha taught: they
>just do something vaguely called "meditation" and thereby consider >themselves
to be Buddhist.
>=================================================================

While there is a possibility of some extreme people who "practice, don't read",
I really don't know about your clairvoyant abilities. In any case, imho, it is
their fault and not the fault of the suttas or even VsM.


>KenH: Of what is sitting in a special place supportive? Is it
>supportive of jhana? Satipatthana?

Both. It is supportive for Jhana and for satipatthana which would be developed
from, lets say, anapanasati.
If you would have read the quote you would know the reason. Seclusion, postures,
etc are helpful and supportive.

KenH, please read.->

Visuddhimagga VIII,
153. Gone to the forest ...or to an empty place: this signifies that he has
found an abode favourable to the development of concentration through
mindfulness of breathing. For this bhikkhu's mind has long been dissipated
among visible data, etc., as its object, and it does not want to
mount the object of concentration-through-mindfulness-of-breathing; it
runs off the track like a chariot harnessed to a wild ox.41 Now suppose a
cowherd [269] wanted to tame a wild calf that had been reared on a wild
cow's milk, he would take it away from the cow and tie it up apart with
a rope to a stout post dug into the ground; then the calf might dash to and fro,
but being unable to get away, it would eventually sit down or lie
down by the post. So too, when a bhikkhu wants to tame his own mind which has
long been spoilt by being reared on visible data, etc., as object for
its food and drink, he should take it away from visible data, etc., as object
and bring it into the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty place and
tie it up there to the post of in-breaths and out-breaths with the rope of
mindfulness. And so his mind may then dash to and fro when it no longer gets the
objects it was formerly used to, but being unable to break the rope of
mindfulness and get away, it sits down, lies down, by that object under the
influence of access and absorption.

157. ...So the Blessed One said 'gone to the forest', etc., to point out a
forest abode as a place likely to hasten his advancement.


Please read the reason for seclusion. If you have any issues, take them with
Ven. Buddhaghosa and Buddha Himself.


with metta,

Alex



#116193 	From: "Ken H" <kenhowardau@yahoo.com.au>
Date: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:10 pm
Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening 	kenhowardau

Hi Alex,

----------
> A: part 2:

>>KH:Aren't you just supporting what I was saying? Many people of different
faiths and philosophies like ...
>>

> A: Various religions promise heaven after this life for those who believe in
them and follow their rules,
----------

KH: No, not just "after this life"! There are meditators of all faiths and
beliefs who like to "chill out" now, in this lifetime.

And that was my point: the common concept of "chilling out" does not equal
satipatthana. It is not what the Buddha taught.

---------------
> A: while Buddha teaches how to make all suffering cease even in this life, how
to reach "bliss of Nibbana" (or something close) even prior to dying. And even
before reaching paths and fruits, successful meditation helps one be more and
more happy, until happiness becomes permanent.
---------------

KH: You might think that was what the Buddha taught (and millions of meditators
would agree with you) but you would be wrong.

-------------------------
> A: As you know, 8 qualities of Dhamma is <. . .>
It is supposed to be "visible here and now and timeless" (SandiṬṬhiko,
Akāliko), not believed in and having to wait for 100,000 lifetimes of
accumulations to have a direct vision of it (stream or higher).
-------------------------

KH: The point is, Alex, that there is no one who waits 100,000 lifetimes; there
is only the presently arisen conditioned dhammas. And they immediately fall away
forever.

That is the understanding that makes the Dhamma a here-and-now teaching.

-----------------------------------
> A: (below I am criticizing myself)
It seems that unless one puts right effort, one will not get results, and then
say "I told you so! No control. Awakening is long time in the future". I get
what I deserve....

> When it comes to philosophy, it is interesting, but it is just that. As you
know, the philosophy of Buddhism (and it remains as such until one can actually
experience it rather than think and reason about it) has progressed a lot. There
are different Abhidhammas and more advanced teachings. Some discussions seem to
border on "how many angels can fit on a point of the needle". You may argue
based on Authority about authenticity of such and such Abhidhamma, but so do
those other schools. You may say how evil of them to separate, but there are two
sides to every separation. The "winner" doesn't need to be the one with correct
doctrine, just the one who won (by force, sophism, or whatever). It is also the
winner that gets to write the history from its own point of view (which of
course is biased in its favor).

> Sometimes to talk about super abstract things without direct experience of
them, is almost like in other philosophies/religions.�  A christian may say "I
believe the Bible. It says so, I believe it, that settles it. Your book is from
a man, ours is from God on Earth, Jesus Christ."�  :)
------------------

KH: If I may take a turn at criticising you :-) I would say you were discarding
the teaching of the Buddha (as found in the ancient Pali texts) and replacing it
with whatever seems right to you.

Ken H



#116194 	From: A T <truth_aerator@...>
Date: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:37 pm
Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening 	truth_aerator
Online Now Send IM
Send Email Send Email
  	

Hello KenH, all,


>KH: No, not just "after this life"! There are meditators of all faiths >and
>beliefs who like to "chill out" now, in this lifetime.
>=====================================================================


A: It is better to "chill out" in deep meditation having suppressed five
hindrances than to "chill ou"t in a strip bar drinking beer, shooting up heroin
and smoking cigars while watching strippers earn some money.


"And when a monk has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that
overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is without strength and weak
in discernment: for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand
what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of
both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge
& vision: that is impossible.
...
Now, when a monk has abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm
awareness and weaken discernment, when he is strong in discernment: for him to
understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of
others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior
human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is possible."
- AN 5.51

>A: while Buddha teaches how to make all suffering cease even in this life
>=====================================================================
>KH: You might think that was what the Buddha taught (and millions of
>meditators would agree with you) but you would be wrong.
>===============================================================

“But, friend, if a bhikkhu is practising in accordance with the Dhamma, would
it take him long to become an arahant?”
“Not long, friend.”  SN 38.16 and 39.1-16  BB trans.

- A noble disciple can attain nibbana in one day. MN85
- Or in 7 days (Satipatthana sutta MN10)

"A bhikkhu endowed with these five factors gaining the training from the Thus
Gone One in the morning, for whatever cause sons of clansmen rightfully go forth
homeless that highest end of the holy life, he here and now, knowing, realizing,
will attain in the evening, or advised in the evening would realise the next
morning." - MN85

"Let alone half a month. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference
in this way for seven days, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either
gnosis right here & now, or — if there be any remnant of clinging/sustenance
— non-return. - MN10
>KH: If I may take a turn at criticising you :-) I would say you were
>discarding the teaching of the Buddha (as found in the ancient Pali >texts) and
replacing it with whatever seems right to you.
>===================================================================

You, and all, are welcome to criticize what I say. I've provided sutta quotes
above and plenty of VsM references in other posts


such as, but not limited to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/116192
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/116188

Some sutta links:
1 day could be enough for awakening:
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/085-bodhirajak\
umara-e1.html

Seven days could be enough:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.html


Suitable & Unsuitable places. Choose suitable ones. Places do matter for
insight.
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/017-vanapattha\
-sutta-e1.html

5 hindrances are obstacles to insight
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.051.than.html


Yours in Dhamma,

Alex



#116195 	From: "Ken H" <kenhowardau@yahoo.com.au>
Date: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:47 pm
Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening 	kenhowardau

Hi Howard,

---------
>> KH: Ultimately everything is dependent on conditions; there is *no*  control.
>>

> H: What exactly is this "control" there is none of?
--------------

KH: I didn't say there was a control of which there was none; I said there was
no control. No control means there are only dhammas. "Only dhammas" means there
is no control.

------------------------
> H: Yes, everything is dependent on conditions, which are simply dhammas.
That's  all there is: dhammas. Among those dhammas are acts of will. What 
exactly are you denying?
When you say there is "no control," do you mean "no controller"? That is, of
course, quite so.
------------------------

KH: See above. There are only [the presently arisen] dhammas. That changes
everything. It means the world is not the way it is commonly perceived.

The mistake made by meditators (if I may say so) is to think that anatta does
not make the world radically different from the way it is commonly perceived.
They think the Dhamma can still be a 'set of instructions to be followed' just
as if there were such a thing as control.

Ken H



#116196 	From: "philip" <philco777@...>
Date: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:46 pm
Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening 	philofillet

Hi Alex

        Kudos to you for sticking to this point, physical seclusion and seclusion
of citta, the Buddha praised them both and people's insistence on denying this
seems very peculiar. If they want to quwstion the suitability of the samattha
meditation practices/directions laid out in Vism it would be so much wiser to
refer to that list of obstacles, sych as family  obligation, health and others.
They are right to question whether people approach meditation in a wise way with
suirable supporting factors, I think at Dhammawheel we someimes see  evidence of
Buddhist meditation turned into a plaything. But to deny there is a tradition of
folliwing instructions laid down in Vism is utterly puzzling to me. (Their
insistence that the Buddha didn't teach about conventional behaviour is worse
rhan puzzling but fortunately that belief doesn't extend very far so best not to
get stresswd about it, I tell myself, ownership of kamma etc. )Take care of youe
health, Alex. Doesn't all the time you spend online debating these points tax
your already poor  health? I think internet use can be added tothe Vism list of
impediments to meditation...

    metta,
    phil

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, A T <truth_aerator@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Pt, all,
>
> >pt: Yes, that case is possible. The scary bit is the case when just one
>"mistake" equates to arising of wrong view about the path. That would >set >you
up on the wrong path from then on, and possibly influence the >thinking >and
practice for many lifetimes, until someone actually points >out the >mistake and
it is actually understood as wrong.
> >================================================================
>
>
> So do you propose not even trying because one can make mistakes? How do you
propose one does  anapanasati as satipatthana for example? Do you think that I
believe in a Eternal Soul (Atta) that can do thing, or that dhammas are
permanent (nicca) and pleasant (sukha)? Do you think that every Buddhist who
meditates believes in  nicca, sukha, Atta?  I hear from KenH and others such
warnings, but not how to do it right. Or do you think there is this conspiracy
to smuggle in Anapanasati, 32 bodyparts, 10 corpses contemplation, and other
satipatthana exercises (while omitting the warnings not to do them) into the
Dhamma and commentaries such as VsM?  Buddha and Ven. Buddhaghosa didn't seem to
put such kinds of warnings when talking about these. And neither is there any
hint that one must already have this habit in order to start doing the practice.
> Don't you think that Suttas and VsM have sufficient instructions? We can
always refer to them, and I would prefer DIRECT quotations.
>
>
> If the danger in intentional development is because it can grow self view,
then: Don't study Dhamma because you might misinterpret it and get even more
deluded and set back even more on the path.  Don't do anything because that
might set you back. Don't put on the cloth (that controls the temperature of the
external body), don't eat or drink because that can delude one that Self eats
and drinks... Don't get up from the bed because one can misinterpret it as Self
who can move limbs and alter the location of rupas, not to mention direct
awareness at such non-existing concepts as walking with right or left foot.
Furthermore, everything happens due to conditions. Great. Live the life as you
want (which requires doing things, often minor akusala), but don't meditate
(potentially maha kusala) as that would be doing things. Doing acting with
kilesas is permissible, but never is it fine to resist them and develop kusala.
>
> Sure everything is conditioned and there is no Freedom of Will. Does this
rejects the fact that things do occur, and actions have results? Isn't it better
that kusala, especially maha kusala, occurs rather than akusala? Does this
reject the need for effort and abandoning akusala things?
>
>
> Does ultimate teaching in any way reject helpful conventional supports?
>
>
> VsM IV,2
> [THE EIGHTEEN FAULTS OF A MONASTERY]
> Herein, one that is unfavourable has any one of eighteen faults.
> These are: largeness, newness, dilapidatedness, a nearby road, a pond,
> [edible] leaves, flowers, fruits, famousness, a nearby city, nearby timber
> trees, nearby arable fields, presence of incompatible persons, a nearby
> port of entry, nearness to the border countries, nearness to the frontier of a
kingdom, unsuitability, lack of good friends. [119] One with any of
> these faults is not favourable. He should not live there.
>
> [Alex: Where did Buddhaghosa suggest that these do not matter as any place is
good place?!]
>
> 20. Then he should sever the lesser impediments (Ch. HI, �28): one
> living in such a favourable monastery should sever any minor impediments
> that he may still have, that is to say, long head hair, nails, and
> body hair should be cut, mending and patching of old robes should be
> done, or those that are soiled should be dyed. If there is a stain on the
> bowl the bowl should be baked. The bed, chair, etc., should be cleaned
> up. These are the details for the clause 'Then he should sever the lesser
> impediments'.
> ==================================================================
>
> [Alex: Same thing]
>
> The point is far more than "oh, it is simply for samatha practice". It does
show that conventionals do play a role and they can hinder maha kusala
development. It is not the case that any place is a good as other.
>
>
> In MN17 the Buddha does talk that if at some place you don't get INSIGHT,
maggaphala, then change to the place where you will, even if it requires
physical privations.
>
>
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/017-vanapattha\
-sutta-e1.html
>
>
> Empty places are not translated as states of the mind by the commentators, and
neither in the suttas.  VsM VIII, 153.
>
> VsM 157. ...So the Blessed One said 'gone to the forest', etc., to point out a
forest abode as a place likely to hasten his advancement.
>
>
> Again VsM talk about places that can hasten one's development...
>
> Again, I do not believe that Buddha really meant that place doesn't count even
though He said that it did. He didn't just talk about samatha, but mindfulness,
insight and noble paths that cut off defilements.
>
> Neither the suttas nor commentaries seem to suggest that they are to be taken
merely as descriptions and not to be followed unless one is already in the habit
of doing so.
>
> With metta,
>
> Alex
>



#116197 	From: "Ken H" <kenhowardau@yahoo.com.au>
Date: Fri Jul 15, 2011 5:14 pm
Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening 	kenhowardau

Hi Howard CW,

Thanks for your reply: I didn't see it the first time around.

---------------

>> KH: <. . .> Many people of different
faiths and philosophies  like to go to a special place, adopt a special posture,
and do something they  consider to be meditation.   That's fine if it it's what
they want to do, but let's not pretend it is what the Buddha taught.
>>

> HCW: The Buddha was rather clear in his sutta teachings  on meditation, but,
of course, direct person-to-person instruction wasn't widely  reported, and
specific instruction is important, necessarily differing from  person to person.
----------------

KH: Charles, is it? :-)

I'm not sure what you mean by "clear in his sutta teachings on meditation." What
is clear to me (from the suttas and elsewhere) is that the Buddha taught right
understanding of the way things are, not meditation.

---------------------------
>> KH: Were you saying, "The  Buddha mentioned postures and secluded places.
Therefore, that must be what satipatthana is. It must be a matter of sitting in
a special way in a special  place."?
>>

> HCW:      People aren't stupid, Ken. What was taught was that  for meditation,
particularly for entering jhanas, physical seclusion from gross  distraction was
advised.
--------------------------

KH: Well, you know we disagree ion that. It is only the presently arisen namas
that can be secluded or not secluded, distracted or not distracted. There is no
control over them and they should be understood for what they are, not for what
we might like them to be.

Ken H



#116198 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:48 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concepts can lead to awakening 	nilovg

Dear Alex,
Op 14-jul-2011, om 15:23 heeft A T het volgende geschreven:

> 157. ...So the Blessed One said 'gone to the forest', etc., to
> point out a
> forest abode as a place likely to hasten his advancement.
------
N: Let us look at the context. This refers to anapanasati, and indeed
this subject is very subtle, apt for Buddhas and sons of Buddhas. Not
for everybody.
This subject, as you know, can be an object of samatha and also of
vipassanaa. That is why a secluded place is favorable.
------
Nina.


#116199 	From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Date: Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:54 pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] To the DSG. 	nilovg

Dear Lukas,
Op 14-jul-2011, om 14:10 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven:

> Sarah:  For me, a day never passes without a real
> appreciation and gratitude for this refuge and the little
> understanding
> that has been accumulated to date.
> --------
N: Lukas, perhaps we take for granted that we came across the dhamma.
What Sarah says here is very good: to have gratefulness every day. A
good reminder.
-------
>
> L: I have this thought's that maybe my health is not good. I smoked
> a lot of ciggaretts and in a huge amount for years. Now I feel
> pains in a body. I was killing myself by coca cola and other stuff
> all my adult life. This is my deep ignorance, and my body could
> have not resist for long time. Now I dont drink even coffee. But
> still has a lot of regrets and thinkings that i may die young. I
> dont want to loose Dhamma I came accross.
------
N: You will not loose the Dhamma if you attend only to the present
naama or ruupa, instead of worrying about your health and the time
you will die. That is the future anyway and nobody knows. It is
rather thinking of stories and it does not lead to anything good.

Nina.