#120400 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta: so anatta.... upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 11/14/2011 7:30:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, philco777@... writes: I guess I have spoken my piece. Now I see Dieter is posting that based on his reading of D.O in a sutta, Abhidhamma is wrong. ------------------------------------------------------ HCW: I've been searching for such a post by Dieter and have been unable to find it. Could you please direct me to it? ------------------------------------------------------ Sigh...good luck with that "Cetasika" project, ----------------------------------------------------- HCW: What is your presumption, Phil? Is it that those of us who have expressed enthusiasm in this project really have no interest in better learning about cetasikas but are liars and deceivers? ---------------------------------------------------- I hope Abhidhamma wins in the great battle to come with the Kalamites. --------------------------------------------------- HCW: (Cute word, 'Kalamite'!) Is this imagined battle your version of Armageddon, with the forces of good confronting the forces of evil on the field of battle? ============================== With metta, Howard P. S. If you detect upset in my post, you are paying good attention. I'm finding this antagonism and sarcasm and utter lack of friendship for fellow Dhamma followers to be distasteful, to use a mild adjective. #120401 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:48 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Metta: so anatta.... scottduncan2 Dear Nina, N: Ha, ha. Too long on a short text was too long for me. Also: you were 'names dropping'..." Scott: Okay. But who was right? Mr. X or Mr. Y? Tee hee. Scott. #120402 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:00 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Metta: so anatta.... scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, S: "..thx also for correcting my Khine/Kline typos....maybe confusing with an actor!" Scott: Yeah, that one who also translates early Buddhist texts from the Paa.li. S: "Keep up the shovelling!" Scott: And the ridiculous suburban ritual involving doggie bags and 'whatnot.' Reminds me of the Talking Heads song: 'Animals think they're pretty smart, **** on the ground, see in the dark...' I bet they laugh at us, walking behind them, with our bags... Scott. #120403 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Looks like Buddhism scottduncan2 Ken O., Me: "Yeah? How do you know? What are you basing this fantasy on? You have just read a description of events. On what do you base your conclusion?" "Dear Scot, All unpleasant feelings are dosa. When one keep thinking of it, is the strength of latency and disposition. Thinking is only citta and vittaka. When u think there is an i, it is just ditthi Cheers Ken O" Scott: True. I was wondering about the certainty. I don't think anyone can know, just from the story, what exactly was going on. I'm not suggesting that I shovelled to act like a buddhist - didn't think of it that way. I just shovelled as usual. I did think of the guy a bit - again, not on purpose and not for long. I knew he'd just been married to someone he'd been with awhile and that they'd also, around the same time, had a baby. I'm too busy to worry about the neighbours but I'm like, 'Well, if you've just married and have a new baby and suddenly don't have enough to do but think of neighbours, maybe what's going on inside your own home is too much and so maybe you have to displace it onto the neighbour's porch,' as it were. Like maybe he hates changing diapers. Who knows. Scott. #120404 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Looks like Buddhism scottduncan2 Ken H., KH: "I think it was highly commendable and better than I could have done in the circumstances. And yes, very Buddhist in the conventional sense of the word." Scott: I'm tempted to imagine the true, manly response you might have perpetrated but better not. I'm pretty sure I barely, if at all, made into the 'commendable dhamma range,' but it did look good from the outside. K: "The ultimate sense of the word Buddhist is, of course, a different matter and not to be confused with the behaviour of living beings. It is just disinterested dhammas performing satipatthana functions in accordance with conditions." Scott: Yeah, well, some dhammas might have 'taken note' as you say and, for sure, they all had nothing to do with me - except for the content of thoughts. Scott. #120405 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Metta: so anatta.... scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, S: "...Isn't it like when we ask here, 'what is the reality now'? 'What is appearing now?' In other words, what is the object of (the development of) satipatthana attended to/understood now? Isn't it a reminder then and now that when panna arises, when there is sati-sampajanna, it knows exactly what appears now, whether that be a bodily rupa, a vedana, a citta or other dhamma?" Scott: All true, and I totally agree. The point for me was that it was unequivocally and definitely *not* 'practice' as the modern sense of the word would have it, nor ought it be confused for such. Only controversial for 'practitioners' I would think. I'd be repeating myself when I say that this clear message is, by it's being so divergent from 'standard buddhism,' is what makes reading on the list so valuable. Not many agree with this refreshing and correct view. Scott. #120406 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:35 am Subject: Re: The more we do not think about oneself that's the right way to understand the teachings scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, S: "...And this is the point about Scott's shovelling story too ---- lots and lots of different dhammas. I'm so tempted to give some advice, like 'go talk to your neighbours and make-up', but in the end, it's just all about the understanding now - not about any situations or rules..." Scott: And inclinations as well. You might go and talk it out. I'd not care to 'talk' or 'make up.' More like just get on with it because I'm too busy and have my own stuff to pick up, as it were. Talking and making up or shovelling snow as usual may or may not be kusala. Scott. #120407 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:58 am Subject: Re: The more we do not think about oneself that's the right way to understand the teachings sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > Scott: And inclinations as well. You might go and talk it out. I'd not care to 'talk' or 'make up.' More like just get on with it because I'm too busy and have my own stuff to pick up, as it were. Talking and making up or shovelling snow as usual may or may not be kusala. .... S: and a little light relief: "Shovelling Snow with Buddha" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCrDVIfoKYY "....but he is too busy to hear me. He has thrown himself into shoveling snow as if it were the purpose of existence" Metta Sarah ===== #120408 From: KC Date: Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Looks like Buddhism ashkenn2k Dear Scot So have u ask yourself what are the things or dhamma that arise when u think of your neighbour What matters are the dhamma that arise with the objects that one have experienced. Without dhamma, one cannot think about others. Cheers Ken O Sent from my iPhone On 15 Nov, 2011, at 9:09 PM, "scottduncan2" wrote: > Ken O., > > Me: "Yeah? How do you know? What are you basing this fantasy on? You have just read a description of events. On what do you base your conclusion?" > > "Dear Scot, > > All unpleasant feelings are dosa. When one keep thinking of it, is the strength of latency and disposition. Thinking is only citta and vittaka. When u think there is an i, it is just ditthi > > Cheers > Ken O" > > Scott: True. I was wondering about the certainty. I don't think anyone can know, just from the story, what exactly was going on. I'm not suggesting that I shovelled to act like a buddhist - didn't think of it that way. I just shovelled as usual. > > I did think of the guy a bit - again, not on purpose and not for long. I knew he'd just been married to someone he'd been with awhile and that they'd also, around the same time, had a baby. I'm too busy to worry about the neighbours but I'm like, 'Well, if you've just married and have a new baby and suddenly don't have enough to do but think of neighbours, maybe what's going on inside your own home is too much and so maybe you have to displace it onto the neighbour's porch,' as it were. Like maybe he hates changing diapers. Who knows. > > Scott. > > #120409 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:12 am Subject: Re: On 'engaged Buddhism', transcript, 2004 Gangtok pt.5 szmicio Dear Sarah, Phil > The Blessed Buddha once said: > 'I am' is an illusion. 'This I am' is an illusion. 'I shall be' is an > illusion. 'I shall not become this or that' is an illusion. 'I shall be of > form' is an illusion. 'I shall become formless' is an illusion. 'I shall > become endowed with perception' is an illusion. 'I shall become without > any perception' is an illusion. 'I shall become neither with nor without > perception' is an illusion. Illusion is torture, illusion is a mind > cancer, illusion is a thorn in the future. If, however, all illusion is > overcome, one is called a stilled one, a sage. And the stilled one, the > sage, is no more reborn, grows no more old, & does not cumulate future > death.. > Why not? That craving through which he could be reborn again does > not exist anymore! If he is not reborn, how can he ever grow old? > If he never grows old, how can he ever die? If he never dies again, > how can he ever be in panic and urge? If neither in panic nor urge, > how can he still experience any craving? L: I was thinking of the first sentences of that passage. 'I am', 'This I am', 'I shall be' are illusions. What does it refers? Ditthi that constantly takes wrongly what is not I for 'I','mine' or mana conceit that also takes this as 'My', 'I'. As Nina quoted asmi-mana. 'I am' conceit? Also the world illusion, stands for what? What's the pali. Is it vipallasa? Best wishes Lukas #120410 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Looks like Buddhism scottduncan2 Ken O., K: "So have u ask yourself what are the things or dhamma that arise when u think of your neighbour. What matters are the dhamma that arise with the objects that one have experienced. Without dhamma, one cannot think about others." Scott: Asking myself about the dhammas arising are just thoughts aren't they? Yes, it is only dhammas arising. I recall some of your recent ideas about this. One of the functions of citta is thinking. But what are thoughts? Scott. #120411 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On 'engaged Buddhism', transcript, 2004 Gangtok pt.5 nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 15-nov-2011, om 16:12 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > What does it refers? Ditthi that constantly takes wrongly what is > not I for 'I','mine' or mana conceit that also takes this as 'My', > 'I'. As Nina quoted asmi-mana. 'I am' conceit? ------ N: We may have clinging with wrong view, and also with conceit, but not at the same time. Conceit can accompany the four types of lobha- muulacittas that are without di.t.thi. One hoists a banner, finding oneself important, 'I am somebody'. ------- Nina. #120412 From: "connie" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:13 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The more we do not think about oneself that's the right way to ... nichiconn dear Howard, > (BTW, if I'm not mistaken, kiriya cittas can occur from time to time even in worldlings.) > > right... confirming that was my original intention. > > c: It's probably better if we don't call kiriya or vipaka cittas 'causal states'. > ------------------------------------------- > HCW: > I agree that there could be some confusion in calling kiriya cittas "causal," but I think that they ARE that as opposed to states that are consequences of kusala, akusala, and kiriya cittas. (Kiriya cittas are much along the lines of "defilement-freed kammic states".) c: quotation marks aside, there is no new kamma for the arahant so again, I would, (more readily if i weren't so afraid of talking to you in the first place), suggest the phrasing is misleading. > As for vipaka cittas, I do *not* call them "causal states," their being kammically resultant (instead of kammically causal) states, though, of course it should be added that even they can and do serve as conditions. c: nor did i accuse you of it... my "we shouldn't" was generic, nothing personal and the inclusion of vipaka in the conversation more of an afterthought than an attack. Don't jump up and be all defensive now, please. I realize it's my own problem/projection that I don't react well to whatever it is about your online style that reminds me of certain other people. You are probably not yelling at me & probably really don't care whether I think you're right or not. > (There is no dhamma that does not serve as a condition.) > ---------------------------------------------- c: and if i weren't such a chicken, we could discuss this further. best wishes, connie #120413 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:31 am Subject: Re: Metta: so anatta.... glenjohnann Sarah and Phil Thanks for the discussion on Metta. I particularly enjoyed the quotes from Nina's translation of Achan Sujin's book. Very useful reminders - never enough! Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > > Last one on Metta for now..... (lots, lots more in U.P.) As Phil pointed out, all dhammas are so anatta. We may learn what is beneficial, but it entirely depends on conditions what will arise from moment to moment. > > Another extract from "Metta" by K.Sujin, posted before by Nina: > > does not arise whenever I wish in the situations of daily life. What should > I do in order that mettaa can arise? > > Khun Sujin: When someone takes realities for self he is inclined to believe > that there is a self who can, by following a particular method, suppress > dosa and develop sati and mettaa. However, in reality there isn't anybody who > can have sati and mettaa if there are no conditions for their arising. > Listening to the Dhamma, wisely considering what one heard, intellectual > understanding of the Dhamma are different moments of kusala. They are > accumulated from moment to moment, and together they make up conditions for > the arising of sati later on which is mindful of one's different cittas. In > this way the disadvantage of dosa and the benefit of mettaa can be seen. > However, if sati does not arise and there are conditions for dosa, dosa will > arise. There is nobody who can have sati and kindness at will. If sati > arises and it can, time and again, be mindful of the Dhamma which the Buddha > explained, there are conditions for the elimination of anger. If one does > not often listen to the Dhamma there are not many conditions for wise > consideration of it and then it is difficult to subdue dosa. Whereas if one > listens a great deal there are conditions for remembrance and wise > consideration of the Dhamma. One may for example reflect on kamma and its > result. People are the owners of their deeds. There can be wise > consideration of akusala kamma which is motivated by anger, it can be > remembered that anger is not helpful for the attainment of enlightenment. > People can reflect on the development of patience by the Buddha during his > lives as a Bodhisatta, as it is described in the "Siilavanaaga Jaataka'' (I, > 72), the "Khantivaadi Jaataka'' (III, 313), the "Culladhammapaala Jaataka'' > **** > S: I also appreciate the reminders on elements a lot. Scott quoted this helpful passage from the Vism before with the Pali (#95579). Again, all anatta, conditioned dhammas only: > > >The Path of Purification. > > "38. But if he is still unable to stop it this way, then he should try > resolution into elements. How? 'Now you who have gone forth into > homelessness, when you are angry with him, what is it you are angry > with? Is it head hairs you are angry with? Or body hairs? Or nails? > ... Or is it urine you are angry with? Or, alternatively, is it the > earth element in the head hairs, etc. you are angry with? Or the > water element? Or the fire element? Or is it the air element you are > angry with? Or among the five aggregates or the twelve bases or the > eighteen elements with respect to which this venerable one is called > by such and such a name, which then, is it the materiality aggregate > you are angry with? Or the feeling aggregate, the perception > aggregate, the formations aggregate, the consciousness aggregate you > are angry with? Or is it the eye base you are angry with? or the > visible-object base you are angry with? ... Or the mind base you are > angry with? Or the mental-object base you are angry with? Or is it > the eye-element you are angry with? Or the visible-object element?? > Or the eye-consciousness element? ... Or the mind element? Or the > mental-object element? Or the mind-consciousness element you are > angry with?' For when he tries the resolution into elements, his > anger finds no foothold, like a mustard seed on the point of an awl or > a painting on air."< > **** > Metta > > Sarah > ====== > (III, 358), or the "Chaddanta Jaataka'' (V, 514). They can apply what they > read in the Buddha's teachings. The Buddha taught the Dhamma out of > compassion to his followers so that they would carefully consider it and put > it into practice.> > > > #120414 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:33 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa moellerdieter Hi Sarah, Connie , all, you wrote: D: Easiest seems to me to define Dukkha by the first Noble Truth , and Dukkhata by the 3 different kinds , i.e. of bodily and mental pain, of formation and of change . The latter provides the only explanation why sukkha , the counterpart , is mentioned being (finally) dukkha. .... S: Sukkha is dukkha because it is impermanent and not worth clinging to. It is the clinging to one's pleasant feeling that brings all that grief you've been discussing with Scott and others. D: we both agree on the Sukha -Dukkha relation due to change. One should be aware of that when the citta 'is coloured ' by sukkha. However I don't understand still your conclusion about the point of grief (here: the death of a beloved one) in daily life . The event is accompanied by unpleasant feeling which triggers the urge (tanha) of rejection- not wanting to have , not being able to accept , i.e. dosa in broader meaning than hate. This urge is the condition for clinging , lasting as long as the mourning...... isn't it? with Metta Dieter , #120415 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:34 am Subject: Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project moellerdieter Dear Sarah all, you wrote: S: Yes, they're all great similes. The pig that 'does not abhor dung' again refers to all kinds of akusala, not just those involved in "behavior that is thought to be morally or sexually offensive ". Now we're discussing dhammas, but as Phil has pointed out, there are kusala and akusala cittas arising in between the sense door processes. Is there any "abhoring" of the "dung"? D: well, the pig has a different concept of the dung . ;-) For us the contact with the object dung triggers unpleasant feeling and so the urge of resentment (dosa) is conditioned ... ' insofar there is 'adhoring of the dung' (D:> As an example in our daily life , we may encounter ahirika and and anottappa in rude writings (wrong speech) , posted on the list , as a type of akusala kamma ) ... S: This is true, but actually, the only ahirika and anottappa, the only akusala cittas that can ever be known are those arising now, not those we take for being the others'. When we think about the others' rude speech or lack of hiri and ottappa, the only reality is the thinking. Is it thinking with kusala cittas, with metta and compassion or with akusala cittas, with annoyance for example? When it's with annoyance, there is ahirika and anottappa which can be gradually understood, even if just in theory now. Again, not mine, not yours, not anyone else's - just conditioned dhammas. D: in daily life we encounter bad behaviours like ahirika and anottapppa by others ( not to talk vice versa) . It is depending on the situation when it is/seems to be proper to mention it , i.e. being/remaining mindful without letting it infect one's thinking (cetasika) S: Btw, on the order for the CDL project (as in the subject heading), I think as Chief Chef you may introduce the cetasikas in any order you like. It'll add spice and artistic flair to the presentation to have an unconventional order. (Reminds me of when we first moved to Hong Kong and were introduced to popular hotel buffets here - we'd be surprised to see families often starting with desserts!). D: Having been in Hong Kong briefly I remember my surprise about the fully occupied restaurants on Sunday mornings , there must be a real brunch culture... I thought it would be better to start with the problematic cetasikas , keeping the beautiful one's , the desert, for later. I didn't /don't have in mind to be Chief Chef of the project (not only because of thinking of the proverb "The Nail that Sticks Up will be hammered down. ...") but there should be different chiefs for different categories of the menu. Hence after discussion of the four unwholesome universals, i.e. ahirika,anottappa, moha and uddhacca, the chef's hat should be taken by another member . I like to take the opportunity of noting some confusing comments concerning the constitution of DSG to ask you about a necessary clarification . As I understand, DSG is a Theravada Buddhist list , which offers a forum for different schools within the scope of the Tipitaka. And as such ,Khun Sujin like any other Dhamma teacher or 'camp' , is subject to canonical examination . Isn't this correct? with Metta Dieter #120416 From: "connie" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:57 am Subject: Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project nichiconn dear Dieter, > I thought it would be better to start with the problematic cetasikas , keeping the beautiful one's , the desert, for later. > thanks for explaining that. i wondered. connie #120417 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The more we do not think about oneself that's the right way to ... upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 11/15/2011 11:13:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, nichicon@... writes: dear Howard, > (BTW, if I'm not mistaken, kiriya cittas can occur from time to time even in worldlings.) > > right... confirming that was my original intention. > > c: It's probably better if we don't call kiriya or vipaka cittas 'causal states'. > ------------------------------------------- > HCW: > I agree that there could be some confusion in calling kiriya cittas "causal," but I think that they ARE that as opposed to states that are consequences of kusala, akusala, and kiriya cittas. (Kiriya cittas are much along the lines of "defilement-freed kammic states".) c: quotation marks aside, there is no new kamma for the arahant so again, I would, (more readily if i weren't so afraid of talking to you in the first place), suggest the phrasing is misleading. > As for vipaka cittas, I do *not* call them "causal states," their being kammically resultant (instead of kammically causal) states, though, of course it should be added that even they can and do serve as conditions. c: nor did i accuse you of it... my "we shouldn't" was generic, nothing personal and the inclusion of vipaka in the conversation more of an afterthought than an attack. Don't jump up and be all defensive now, please. ------------------------------------------------ HCW: Actually, I wasn't at all. You made an incorrect inference, evidently from how I phrased things. There was no feeling of defensiveness. ------------------------------------------------ I realize it's my own problem/projection that I don't react well to whatever it is about your online style that reminds me of certain other people. You are probably not yelling at me & probably really don't care whether I think you're right or not. ----------------------------------------------- HCW: Right. No yelling or being defensive on my part, and I'm not all that concerned about opinions, mine or another's. :-) It's all cool, Connie. A person being kind, which you are, is all I really care about. ----------------------------------------------- > (There is no dhamma that does not serve as a condition.) > ---------------------------------------------- c: and if i weren't such a chicken, we could discuss this further. ------------------------------------------------ HCW: ?? ----------------------------------------------- best wishes, connie =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #120418 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Metta: so anatta.... glenjohnann Dear Nina (Sarah, Phil and others) The arising of ill-will comes about through unwise bringing to > mind (ayoniso manaasikaara) in regard to the sign of resentment > (pa.tighanimitta). Herein, resentment is the "sign of resentment" and > also the object of resentment is the "sign of resentment". > Kh Sujin explained that all objects through the six doors can be > nimitta of dosa. Nina, can you talk about what this means, "all objects through the six doors can be nimitta of dosa". And about the "sign of resentment" as well. I have not heard this before (nor have I heard the "sign of amity"). Is it (sign of r.) being used to mean/indicate sign of dosa? And the "sign of resentment", is this the nimitta of previously arisen dosa? > Yoniso manasikaara (right attention) is stressed for the > abandonment of dosa. > The Dispeller of Delusion, CH VII, at end,1256: "Furthermore, six > things lead to the abandoning of ill-will: 1. the acquiring of the > sign of amity. 2. devotion to the development of amity. 3. Reviewing > ownership of kamma. 5. good friendship. 6. suitable talk." Again, above "the acquiring of the sign of amity", does this mean developing accumulations for the arising of amity? Does amity here mean metta? Ann #120419 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:50 am Subject: Rejoice! bhikkhu5 Friends: How is the Mental Release by Mutual Joy? The Blessed Buddha once explained: How is the release of mind by infinite mutual joy (Muditâ ) achieved? What does this liberation have as its destination, what is its culmination, what is its sweet fruit, and what is the ultimate goal of mental release by universally mutual, unselfish, altruistic, appreciative & rejoicing joy? Here, Bhikkhus, a Bhikkhu dwells pervading the frontal quadrant with a mind imbued with infinite mutual joy, so the 2nd, 3rd and 4th quadrant. As above, so below, across, and everywhere to all beings as for himself, he dwells pervading the entire cosmos with a mind fully saturated with unlimited mutual joy, immense, exalted, measureless, without hostility, without any enmity, without any trace of ill will, of jealousy or of envy! Thus prepared and mentally quite expanded, he then develops: 1: The Awareness Link to Awakening joined with limitless mutual joy. 2: The Investigation Link to Awakening fused with such mutual joy. 3: The Energy Link to Awakening together with infinite mutual joy. 4: The Joy Link to Awakening accompanied with absolute mutual joy. 5: The Tranquillity Link to Awakening linked with noble mutual joy. 6: The Concentration Link to Awakening associated with mutual joy. 7: The Equanimity Link to Awakening joined with endless mutual joy. Based upon seclusion, disillusion, ceasing, and culminating in release... If he then wishes: May I dwell experiencing repulsion by any attractive & tempting object, then he can dwell experiencing repulsiveness therein. If he wishes: May I dwell experiencing the unrepulsive in any disgusting and repulsive object, then he experiences pleasing beauty in whatever disgusting & ugly thing! If he wishes: Avoiding both the repulsive & the unrepulsive, may I dwell in equanimity , just aware & clearly comprehending, then he experiences equanimity , just aware and clearly comprehending! When meditating he can completely transcend the realm of infinitude of space, only aware that consciousness is infinite, he can enter and dwell in the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness.. I tell you Bhikkhus for a quite wise Bhikkhu here, who has not yet penetrated to an even more superior mental release, the mental release by infinite, altruistic and mutual joy has the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness as its culmination! <...> Comments: Are you Discontent? Here is Why! Mutual joy is the proximate cause of contentment. Consequentially: Lack of mutual joy produces frustrated discontent! Mutual joy also eliminates jealousy and envy! Absence of mutual joy therefore induces the acid like mental pain called envy and jealousy! Source of reference (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikâya. Book [V: 115-21] 46: The Links. 54: Joined by Friendliness... Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #120420 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:09 pm Subject: Re: Pt's visit by car - this moment does not mean crashing into trees! sarahprocter... Dear Pt & all, late correction to #119695 which I just came across: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > Pt, please correct me if I misunderstood you, but as I recall, your questions related to the apparent 'control' involved, the 'deciding' on which factors would arise and perhaps the suggestion of intention and choice by a Self. > > First of all, we need to appreciate that this refers to phala-samapatti or fruition-attainment, whereby anagamis or arahats (only) who attained with jhana as basis, may dwell. .... S: I was (mistakenly) thinking of nirodha samapatti when I wrote the sentence above. To clarify, any ariyans who attained stages of enlightenment based on (mundane) jhana, are able to 'dwell in fruition' (phala samapatti), experiencing nibbana again and again. Anagamis and arahats may also 'dwell in cessation (nirodha samapatthi). Metta Sarah ====== #120421 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta: so anatta.... nilovg Dear Ann, Op 16-nov-2011, om 5:24 heeft glenjohnann het volgende geschreven: > Herein, resentment is the "sign of resentment" and > > also the object of resentment is the "sign of resentment". > > Kh Sujin explained that all objects through the six doors can be > > nimitta of dosa. > > Nina, can you talk about what this means, "all objects through the > six doors can be nimitta of dosa". > ------- N: Nimitta can have several meanings. In my PED: among others, mark, characteristic, attribute, phenomenon. Thus here not: sa"nkhaara nimitta we discussed before. All objects through the six doors can be the objects of dosa. Heard this morning: Thus, when noticing people scolding each other, this is unpleasant, but before we know it, we are annoyed. Why? Because we cling to pleasant situations. We like others to be friendly all the time. But, as the Bodhisatta said, if there were no contrarious people we could not cultivate patience. When we cling and also when we are annoyed, there is impatience and we accumulate more each time. ------- > > A: And about the "sign of resentment" as well. I have not heard > this before (nor have I heard the "sign of amity"). Is it (sign of > r.) being used to mean/indicate sign of dosa? And the "sign of > resentment", is this the nimitta of previously arisen dosa? > ----- N: Same meaning. Not necessarily previously arisen, it is in a context different from sa"nkhaara nimitta. -------- > > A: > Yoniso manasikaara (right attention) is stressed for the > > abandonment of dosa. > > The Dispeller of Delusion, CH VII, at end,1256: "Furthermore, six > > things lead to the abandoning of ill-will: 1. the acquiring of the > > sign of amity. 2. devotion to the development of amity. 3. Reviewing > > ownership of kamma. 5. good friendship. 6. suitable talk." > > Again, above "the acquiring of the sign of amity", does this mean > developing accumulations for the arising of amity? Does amity here > mean metta? > ------ N: Amity is a translation of metta. Instead of annoyance and impatience we better have metta. Or compassion. Compassion is compared to a mother's conduct towards a sick child. We can never judge someone else's behaviour, there may be many motives behind his conduct. In a conventional sense: later on we think: O, had I known that I would have acted differently. These are stories. As to cittas: we never know the accumulated inclinations of someone else. > -------- Nina. #120422 From: KC Date: Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Looks like Buddhism ashkenn2k Dear Scot, Thoughts are important to development of panna. Listening, learning, investigating and reflecting are thoughts. Satipanna arise with concepts also, the text has never say that satipatthana only arise exclusively with paramatha dhamma. Cheers Kc aka Ken O Sent from my iPhone On 15 Nov, 2011, at 11:35 PM, "scottduncan2" wrote: > Ken O., > > K: "So have u ask yourself what are the things or dhamma that arise when u think of your neighbour. What matters are the dhamma that arise with the objects that one have experienced. Without dhamma, one cannot think about others." > > Scott: Asking myself about the dhammas arising are just thoughts aren't they? Yes, it is only dhammas arising. I recall some of your recent ideas about this. One of the functions of citta is thinking. But what are thoughts? > > Scott. > > #120423 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:35 pm Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism rjkjp1 HI scott Much better response than opening the gun cabinet and loading the Glock 9mm(IMHO) robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear All, > > I have a dog. I also have a busy life. > > Most times, when the dog does her business, I pick it up in a used grocery store bag, like a good recycler. Sometimes, the exigencies of kids and breakfast and single-parent routine and whatnot make this suburban ritual impossible. > > This morning, after a busy weekend and an unending dog-bowel, the neighbour placed a piece of my dog's feces on my front steps. I had failed, for once, to pick it up. So sue me. > > I come home after a long day at work to find this passive-aggressive missive on my front porch steps. Dog s***. Needless to say, Dhamma aside, I thought ill of this narrow-minded, self-centred, not-minding-his-own-business, petty s.o.b. of a neighbour. > > It is snowing. > > Winter has arrived in Edmonton. Shoveling snow in suburbia involves having to minister to a very small section of sidewalk - nothing compared to shoveling snow when I was a kid. So I always shovel most of the neighbours walks on both sides. All winter. Not too hard, really. I did the same tonight, including the majority of the sidewalk pertaining to the dog-s***-delivering moron, his ridiculous complaint notwithstanding. > > What of it? Buddhist enough? Why or why not? > > Scott. > #120424 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 15-nov-2011, om 19:34 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > I didn't /don't have in mind to be Chief Chef of the project (not > only because of thinking of the proverb "The Nail that Sticks Up > will be hammered down. ...") but there should be different chiefs > for different categories of the menu. Hence after discussion of the > four unwholesome universals, i.e. ahirika,anottappa, moha and > uddhacca, the chef's hat should be taken by another member . ------ N: We still have moha and uddhacca, but after that can you not stay on as chief? If you keep it short and several of us add something, it may not be too heavy a burden? I apologize for all the unanswered mails I have in my concept file. At times I have too much work. Nina. #120425 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:19 am Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism scottduncan2 Rob K., R: "Much better response than opening the gun cabinet and loading the Glock 9mm(IMHO) Scott: Yup. Very true. Scott. #120426 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Looks like Buddhism scottduncan2 Kc (Your new moniker?), K: "Thoughts are important to development of panna. Listening, learning, investigating and reflecting are thoughts. Satipanna arise with concepts also, the text has never say that satipatthana only arise exclusively with paramatha dhamma." Scott: Yes, this is your thesis. I'm not convinced. What is your definition of satipa.t.thaana? How are 'thoughts important to the development of pa~n~naa'? That is, in what way? What is the sequence of dhammas and where do thoughts (concepts) fit in? What is the characteristic of a concept? In what sense do you consider thoughts (concepts) to be objects of satipa.t.thaana? Scott. #120427 From: "connie" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:13 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The more we do not think about oneself that's the right way to ... nichiconn dear Howard, good to know when i'm wrong, thanks! And again, apologies for wanting to jump other people for my own faults. I'm half tempted to make some excuse about being sick, but when aren't i, really? It would be better to remember it more often. Haha, and not post on days when the new microwave beeping 5 times instead of 3 like the old one irks me. No, seriously, it all comes back to forgetting the dread 'i, me, mine' curse, doesn't it? Taking things personally and all in the first place and then forgetting the three poisonous roots are almost always feverishly feeding my head even when i think i'm fine. > > > (There is no dhamma that does not serve as a condition.) > > ---------------------------------------------- > That's true. I told Sarah I'd think about starting a conditions corner, but ... selfishly, it's more than i want to take on right now. No need to reply. This feels like deja vu anyway. connie #120428 From: "connie" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:20 am Subject: Re: santhana pannatti and santati pannatti nichiconn dear Lukas, > What is a difference between santhana and santati pannatti? I need some details. > I wonder if the difference between sa.n.thaana and sa.n.taana isn't pretty much like the difference between pa.n.natti and pa~n~natti. Or practice and practise. haha, "a matter of form". What do you think? connie #120429 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:23 am Subject: Fw: view 'I have no self' is wrong view moellerdieter Dear Sarah, all, the above topic (last posting Nov. 11) came back into my mind when I stumbled upon a part of Katha Vadhu in Nyanatiloka's 'Guide through the Abhidhamma Pitaka' ( see below ) which provides the logic for the Self or Personality controversy . So whoever likes to start this topic again, should be expected to have contemplated the extract below .. ;-) with Metta Dieter Guide through the Abhidhamma Pişaka Katha -Vatthu by Nyanatiloka Maha Thera ( http://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/Guide-through-the-Abhidhamma-Pitaka.\ pdf ) CHAPTER I 1. Is there, in the absolute sense, any personality (puggala) to be found? Puggala is here explained by attan (self, ego, personal entity), satta (being), and jiva (vital principle, soul, etc.), all terms which in Buddhism have validity only in a relative sense, namely, as figures of speech in popular and conventional language (vohara), but not in the absolute sense (cf. Intr.). Amongst the schismatic schools, the Vajjiputtakas and Sammitiyas advocated some sort of personality-belief. This first controversy starts with 8 refutations. The first refutation, of which I shall quote merely the beginning consists of: a 5 fold affirmative presentation (anuloma), a four fold rebuttal (paşikamma), a 5 fold refutation (niggaha), a four fold application (upanayana), a four fold conclusion (niggamana). (The 5 fold affirmative presentation): (1) Ther.: 'Can there be found any personality in the real, absolute sense?' Heretic: 'Yes.'1 2Amanta-This word is found only in Kathavatthu and Yamaka. (2) Ther.: 'Can the personality be found in the real, absolute sense, in the same way that a real, absolute fact is found?' Her.: 'No, that cannot be said.' (3) Ther.: 'Admit your refutation: If the personality can be found in the real and absolute sense, then you should also say thatthe personality can be found in the real, absolute sense, in the same way that a real absolute fact is found (like any mental or bodily phenomenon). - (4) That which you here declare is wrong, namely, that we should say the first thing, but should not say the second thing. - (5) If the second thing cannot be said, then also the first thing should not be said. Thus, you are wrong in affirming the first thing, whilst denying the second thing.' 1. 2. Katha-vatthu 85 (The four fold rebuttal) Heretic: 'Can the personality not be found in the real, absolute sense?' Ther.: 'No, it cannot.' Her.: 'Is it then undiscoverable, just in the same sense that a real, absolute fact is discoverable?' Ther.: 'No, that could not be said.' Her.: 'Admit the rebuttal: if the personality cannot be found in the real, absolute sense, then you should also say that it is undiscoverable, just in the same way that a real, absolute fact is discoverable, etc., etc.' In the second refutation, the heretic first puts forward a 5 fold negative presentation (paccanìka): 'Is personality not to be found in the real, absolute sense?' to which the Ther. Replies that it is not. The rest is analogous to the first refutation. In the third refutation, the matter is presented with regard to locality: 'Is the personality everywhere found in the sense of a real, absolute fact?'; in the fourth refutation, with regard to time: 'Is personality always found, etc.?'; in the fifth refutation, with regard to the object: 'Is personality found in everything (i.e. 5 groups of existence, etc.)?' In the sixth, seventh, and eighth refutations, the matter is presented in a negative form with regard to locality, time, and object. Thereafter follows an inquiry, in which personality is compared with the realities, i.e. the 5 groups of existence, etc. (s. Vibh. I-III), first in a direct way, then by way of analogy, of identity, then with regard to relativity and absoluteness, to conditionality and unconditionality, eternity and temporariness, externality and internality, then by clearing the meaning of the terms, then by inquiring into personality with regard to rebirth: 'Does the personality transmigrate from this to the next world?' etc.; then with regard to dependency: 'Is personality dependent upon corporeality? Upon feeling? . Could five personalities be dependent upon the five groups of existence?' etc. Further: 'Does personality undergo rebirth in each moment of consciousness? .Is 86 Guide through the Abhidhamma Pişaka personality in the next moment the same, or another?... (Her.:) Is it not the personality who sees with the eye? . Does not the Buddha with his divine eye perceive visible objects, and also personalities? . (Ther.): Are the visible things the personality? . Is the personality something seen?' . (Her.): 'Does there not exist the doer of wholesome and unwholesome actions? Or the experiencer of their karmic effects? Or the Enjoyer of Nibbana? Or the Person possessed of magical power? . Do there not exist father mother, brother,sister, merchants, holy men, etc., etc.?' . (Ther.): 'Is feeling one thing, and the Experiencer of the feeling another?' . (Her.). 'Did not the Buddha say in Anguttara I: 'There is one Person born in the world, who works for the good . of heavenly beings and men'?' etc. The Ther. quotes the unambiguous and conclusive passage from .... unquote #120430 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project moellerdieter Dear Nina (all) , you wrote: N: We still have moha and uddhacca, but after that can you not stay on as chief? If you keep it short and several of us add something, it may not be too heavy a burden? I apologize for all the unanswered mails I have in my concept file. At times I have too much work. Nina. D: I understand that , Nina, Though I have probably sufficient time , my way of going into details ( German mode of 'gruendlich') has the disadvantage of slow progress , i.e. hardly keeping it short. But let us see , how far it may go / how it is appreciated by members. Actually one may ask ,why not to discuss what you already have written about the Cetasikas http://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/index.html (?) Certainly a way to do respectively what has been done in the previous discussions . However there may be an advantage to start with , what -at least for me - is an easier way: to talk about one's understanding acc. to experience and studies, before we look deeper into the Abh. framework , you present with the book. Assumed of course that - whenever it is convenient - you will participate in the discussion already in an early stage. B.T.W. I like to express my respect and admiration for your great work , having so many books about the 'Higher Teaching' published , on-line for example by the Wisdom Library among other wellknown Buddhist scholars. with Metta Dieter #120431 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The more we do not think about oneself that's the right way to ... upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 11/16/2011 11:13:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, nichicon@... writes: dear Howard, good to know when i'm wrong, thanks! And again, apologies for wanting to jump other people for my own faults. I'm half tempted to make some excuse about being sick, but when aren't i, really? It would be better to remember it more often. Haha, and not post on days when the new microwave beeping 5 times instead of 3 like the old one irks me. ------------------------------------------------ HCW: I find that it is one of the easiest things in the world to misread folks over the internet! I suspect I do it far more than I've come to realize. ----------------------------------------------- No, seriously, it all comes back to forgetting the dread 'i, me, mine' curse, doesn't it? Taking things personally and all in the first place and then forgetting the three poisonous roots are almost always feverishly feeding my head even when i think i'm fine. ------------------------------------------------ HCW: The universal sickness for us worldlings - and the most consistent I'm afraid. --------------------------------------------- > > > (There is no dhamma that does not serve as a condition.) > > ---------------------------------------------- > That's true. I told Sarah I'd think about starting a conditions corner, but ... selfishly, it's more than i want to take on right now. No need to reply. This feels like deja vu anyway. ---------------------------------------------- HCW: LOL! It's often deja vu here! ;-)) ----------------------------------------------- connie ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #120432 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:50 am Subject: "The more we do not think about oneself that's the right way to ..." is silly. scottduncan2 connie, "...No, seriously, it all comes back to forgetting the dread 'i, me, mine' curse, doesn't it? Taking things personally and all in the first place and then forgetting the three poisonous roots are almost always feverishly feeding my head even when i think i'm fine." Scott: Of course this applies to every single discussant on the list. You offer yourself needlessly with your possibly self-effacing and going-out-on-a-limb statement - if it is indeed an earnest reference to yourself. I'm trying to join you on that limb, lest the self-righteousness factor climb to dangerous levels in sectors of the list tipping you off the branch into the water when the sharks start to circle. I happen to think it's silly for people here - anyone here - to think that one can discuss and 'not think of self' at the same time. I think it's silly for any of us to 'think [we are] fine' especially when complaining about someone's lack of or praising someone's possession of that same 'fine-ness.' This cannot be known and is petty. There are differences in views on this list; this is clear and needs no masking. There are no significant differences along any other dimensions that bear any relevance to discussion on the list. Anyone who thinks himself or herself able to detect these is wrong. Scott. #120433 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:39 am Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism kenhowardau Hi Robert K and Scott, Just in case you are looking for disagreement: :-) ------------- R: "Much better response than opening the gun cabinet and loading the Glock 9mm(IMHO) Scott: Yup. Very true. ------------- KH: In what way is it better? The title of Scott's thread "Looks like Buddhism" makes me think of near enemies. If we think shovelling snow for our neighbour (acting like a Buddhist) is somehow better than shooting him, how are we ever going to have right understanding? That sort of thinking is a near enemy, isn't it? Satipatthana is for shooters and shovelers alike. Ken H #120434 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:51 am Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism scottduncan2 Ken H., KH: "In what way is it better? The title of Scott's thread 'Looks like Buddhism' makes me think of near enemies. If we think shovelling snow for our neighbour (acting like a Buddhist) is somehow better than shooting him, how are we ever going to have right understanding? That sort of thinking is a near enemy, isn't it? Satipatthana is for shooters and shovelers alike." Scott: Yup. Very true. It's better because this way I don't actually kill someone. But, yeah, point well taken. I'm certainly not suggesting that my shovelling snow was 'wholesome' - well, it's just as 'wholesome' as an 'act of meditating' right? That is, not so very wholesome just because it looks better than shooting the guy (or my dog come to think of it, which would also solve the problem). Scott. #120435 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:57 am Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism rjkjp1 Ohhh. ha ha ha . Ok.......Hmmm. Ummm I don't think soooooo Ken. Anyway you made me laugh.. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > Hi Robert K and Scott, > > Just in case you are looking for disagreement: :-) > > ------------- > R: "Much better response than opening the gun cabinet and loading the Glock 9mm(IMHO) > > Scott: Yup. Very true. > ------------- > > KH: In what way is it better? > > The title of Scott's thread "Looks like Buddhism" makes me think of near enemies. If we think shovelling snow for our neighbour (acting like a Buddhist) is somehow better than shooting him, how are we ever going to have right understanding? That sort of thinking is a near enemy, isn't it? > > Satipatthana is for shooters and shovelers alike. > > Ken H > #120436 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:48 am Subject: RE: [dsg] On 'engaged Buddhism', transcript, 2004 Gangtok pt.5 dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, Thank you. peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck .......... rest deleted ................... #120437 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:09 am Subject: Decisive is Determination! bhikkhu5 Friends: Determination is the 8th Mental Perfection: Only determination can completely fulfill the other mental perfections! Its characteristic is an unwavering decision, its function is to overcome hesitation, and its manifestation is unfaltering persistence in this task...! The proximate cause of determination is strong willpower to succeed! Only the power of resolute determination lifts any praxis to perfection... When the Future Buddha placed his back against the trunk of The Bodhi Tree, he right there made this mighty decision: "Let just the blood and flesh of this body dry up and let the skin & sinews fall from the bones. I will not leave this seat before having attained that absolute supreme Enlightenment!" So determined did he invincibly seat himself, from which not even 100 earthquakes could make him waver. Jataka Nidâna A female lay follower (Upâsika) at the time of the Buddha kept pure the precepts, comprehended the nature of impermanence, the consequent fragility of the body and thereby won stream-entry (Sotâpanna)... After passing away, she re-arose as the favourite attendant of Sakka, the king of Gods. Reviewing her own merit, she remembered her prior admonition to herself: "Let this body break up as it may, herein will not be any excuse or relaxation of the effort...!" Whose mind is like a rock, determined, unwavering, immovable, without a trace of lust of urging towards all the attractions, without a trace of aversion of pushing away all the repulsive, from what, can such a refined mind ever suffer? Udana IV - 4 Using the tools of Faith, Morality, Effort, Determination, Meditation and true Understanding of the Dhamma, one gradually perfects first knowing and then behaviour. So well equipped & always aware, one becomes capable of eliminating of this great heap of suffering once and for all ... Dhammapada 144 What is being determined by Right Motivation? The decision for always being motivated to withdrawal, The decision for always being motivated to good-will, The decision for always being motivated to harmlessness, This is being determined by Right Motivation... Samyutta Nikâya XLV 8 My mind is firm like a rock, unattached to sensual things, no shaking in the midst of a world, where all is decaying and vanishing... My mind has been thus well developed, so how can suffering ever touch me? Theragatha 194 The four determinations: One should not neglect the Dhamma, One should guard well the Truth, One should be devoted to Withdrawal, and one should always train only for Peace. Majjhima Nikâya 140 Fearing being predestined for Hell if he became a King, who had to punish criminals violently, the Bodhisatta determined not to show any intelligence, and played dumb, deaf and crippled for sixteen years, only showing his real abilities, when he was on the verge of being buried alive! This was his ultimate perfection of resolute determination... The Basket of Conduct: Cariyapitaka More of the 10 mental perfections (paramis): http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/The_Ten_Perfections.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/The_10_mental_perfections_(parami)_in_thre e_levels.htm Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Decisive is Determination! #120438 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:10 pm Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism scottduncan2 Ken H., Rob K., "The title of Scott's thread 'Looks like Buddhism' makes me think of near enemies. If we think shovelling snow for our neighbour (acting like a Buddhist) is somehow better than shooting him, how are we ever going to have right understanding? That sort of thinking is a near enemy, isn't it? Satipatthana is for shooters and shovelers alike." Scott: Okay, so now I'm thinking about our own disagreements. You know, disagreements between like-minded members of the list. Discussing these might offer a much more interesting sort of discussion to discussing with meditators. This seems so repetitious and boring. I'm curious: What are you guys disagreeing about exactly? I'd love to consider it... Scott. #120439 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:02 pm Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism rjkjp1 Hi Scott and Kenh Sukin has moved out of his flooded house and lives on my road now - in the better part of Bangkok-so we had breakfast at the Marriot this morning. He sides with Kenh, after all, he says, dosa arises often hence why not of the level that sanctions shooting an irritating neighbour. After all we are not sotapanna. And of course Scott's conventionally good act could have been hiding some akusala: Scotts possible thinking process: "That idiot, but anyway i am a good Buddhist and I will prove it" Shovels snow for idiotic neigbour. "I really am rather sublime. I wonder if i might be a sotapanna and didn't realize it?" "Must be close to it, I can hardly wait to report this to dsg, wonder if anyone will recognize my paramis"... "Maybe I should open a new website..www.theultimateway_to_paranibbana.com . I could appoint RobEp and PT as assistant teachers (better make that PROBATIONARY assistant teachers)... I can make videos and put them om youtube " What do you think? robert p.s. sorry Scott , just joking --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Ken H., Rob K., > > "The title of Scott's thread 'Looks like Buddhism' makes me think of near enemies. If we think shovelling snow for our neighbour (acting like a Buddhist) is somehow better than shooting him, how are we ever going to have right understanding? That sort of thinking is a near enemy, isn't it? Satipatthana is for shooters and shovelers alike." > > Scott: Okay, so now I'm thinking about our own disagreements. You know, disagreements between like-minded members of the list. Discussing these might offer a much more interesting sort of discussion to discussing with meditators. This seems so repetitious and boring. > > I'm curious: What are you guys disagreeing about exactly? I'd love to consider it... > > Scott. > #120440 From: "philip" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:09 pm Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism philofillet Hi all > KH: "In what way is it better? ... Satipatthana is for shooters and shovelers alike." > > Scott: Yup. Very true. It's better because this way I don't actually kill someone. > Guns? A real Canadian would know what to do. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EBlPy0byK8 Seriously, I heard someone ask A.Sujin about how she handled all the beggards in India, she never got upset, but he got upset just at seeing people harrassing his teacher etc. All she said, around 7 or 8 times as he talked was "just understand....just understand..." And finally "and be careful not to hurt." She also in another talk praised the form of dana that is "avoiding causing the unpleasant moment." (i.e in the other) I think we go to far if we deny that the failure to avoid causing harm to others (whether by shooting, slander or headcrunching) is not strongly censured (censored?) by the Buddha. Fortunately we understand that rather than being satisfied and proud of avoiding hurting others by our conventional behaviour, void of panna, the development of satipatthana will foster the dhammas that create the concept of "avoding hurting others." And that panna will continue to develop as all the many kusala factors that together create the conventional behaviour of "not killing" (how many kusala dhammas in one wholesome moment? 19, or something like that) develop along with it. Understanding is always best, it is the only way out. Phil #120441 From: "philip" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:35 pm Subject: The camp thing... philofillet Hi all I've written a few times, hurriedly, and hurriedly today as well but after a little bit of thinking, about why DSG always seems to get me riled up. Well, before my anti-Sujinist ranting period and since it ended -- there were different reasons during that period. I think it is the reality that there are two camps that are always opposed to each other, no matter how diplomatically or abusively, always two camps, always have been, always will be. That is the result of the open moderation style/membership policty that Sarah and Jon have chosen, and that style/policy is obviously fine with most people here. For me though it just doesn't work. As I've said before, I prefer the dynamic of listening, in the recorded talks, yes, there are on occasion visitors with very different views, and that is interesting, it would be foolish to never have one's understanding challenged by other views, there are so many references to that in the suttanta. So of course it's healthy. But I find that at DSG rather than being an exceptional thing it becomes the rule. As I've said before, for personal reaasons perhaps or deficiencies of patience or as Sarah suggested lack of confidence about the path, I think discussion is much more fruitful (and yes I seek fruit) when people are on the same page. I also tend to be short-tempered on the internet because I am always unhappy about how much time I spend online, and that aggravates my response to people, and leads to belittling "guys on the internet" and so on. I was just reading the chapter in Cetasikas on abstainiNg, some very good things to reflect on, and I think I would like to avoid slandering and verbally abusing people in the future, I never do it offline, it is mostly an online phenomenon for me. I don't regret it at the time, or even later, even now, but I don't think it's wise to keep doing it when I can clearly see the way to avoid it. As for the very important Dhamma discussion, that's fine, I can listen to the talks and perhaps Skype with people on occasion, good enough. In KK, I would like to discuss (not during the talks with A.S, maybe on one of the evenings) some ideas for an alternative to DSG, a supplement or complement to DSG for the future. I think there might be other people like me who would like to discuss on the page that is laid down by studying Abhidhamma and commentaries and listening to A. Sujin preach in the light of those but who can't here because they don't want to get involved in the cross border debate (or discussion, if you prefer.) Anyways, that's something we can maybe talk about in KK, maybe I am the only one who feels this way. Thanks as always Sarah and Jon and Nina, and my apologies to all for any unpleasant moments caused by my harsh comments. But to be perfectly honest I would still like to see all "the suttas say so!" folk disappear and have no one but students of A.Sujin here. That's not going to happen, and fair enough, so it is me who should disappear. Phil p.s I will be leaving the group (again) as soon as this is posted, so no further comment possible. We can talk about it in KK. p.p.s An other reason that I should leave is job-related, labour strife at work might result in me loving my beloved, cushy job. I have a perment visa here so can put together jobs here and there to get by comfortably, but to do that I have to start working on more translation work as part of this possible plan B. Have to get back to brushing up my Japanese, really do have to get offline...yeah, right... #120442 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:22 pm Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism kenhowardau Hi Scott and Rob K, --- <. . .> > Scott: Okay, so now I'm thinking about our own disagreements. You know, disagreements between like-minded members of the list. Discussing these might offer a much more interesting sort of discussion to discussing with meditators. This seems so repetitious and boring. > > I'm curious: What are you guys disagreeing about exactly? I'd love to consider it... --- KH: OK, welcome to the club, but don't tell anyone! As you suggest, what we do here is take a shared understanding and stretch it. Eventually we reach a point where the understanding is no longer shared. This is *not* for the fainthearted. So, is the snow shoveler any more Buddhist than the rampaging gunman? I say no; there are concepts and there are realities, and never the twain shall meet. What do you say? Ken H #120443 From: "philip" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:29 pm Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism philofillet Hi Ken H and all > As you suggest, what we do here is take a shared understanding and stretch it. Eventually we reach a point where the understanding is no longer shared. > Cool. I like this concept. Starting with shared understanding... Phil #120444 From: KC Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Looks like Buddhism ashkenn2k Dear Scot This is not my thesis, if you look at the commentaries, abhidhamma texts, you will find breathing and body parts used as concepts. The function of panna is to understand the general and unique characteristics of dhamma. Words are concepts, investigating and thinking over the meanings of the words is comceptual as there is no direct understanding to the meaning of dhamma yet Sent from my iPhone On 16 Nov, 2011, at 11:33 PM, "scottduncan2" wrote: > Kc (Your new moniker?), > > K: "Thoughts are important to development of panna. Listening, learning, investigating and reflecting are thoughts. Satipanna arise with concepts also, the text has never say that satipatthana only arise exclusively with paramatha dhamma." > > Scott: Yes, this is your thesis. I'm not convinced. > > What is your definition of satipa.t.thaana? > > How are 'thoughts important to the development of pa~n~naa'? That is, in what way? > > What is the sequence of dhammas and where do thoughts (concepts) fit in? > > What is the characteristic of a concept? > > In what sense do you consider thoughts (concepts) to be objects of satipa.t.thaana? > > Scott. > > #120445 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:18 pm Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism kenhowardau Hi Phil, --- > Ph: Cool. I like this concept. Starting with shared understanding... --- KH: It can be traumatic. When I went to KK I learned that my right understanding was not so right after all. (!) I still haven't got over it. Ken H #120446 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Looks like Buddhism scottduncan2 Kc, K: "This is not my thesis, if you look at the commentaries, abhidhamma texts, you will find breathing and body parts used as concepts." Scott: First of all, note: Scott with 2 t's. Second, it *is* your thesis. I asked you some questions and I'd be interested in your answers with your own words for now and not the lame method of simply sending a text along with an opinion and expecting the reader to equate the two. That's not a discussion. I don't consider you to be my teacher. So, can we discuss equally or not? Scott. #120447 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:29 pm Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism scottduncan2 Dear Rob K., R: "Sukin has moved out of his flooded house and lives on my road now - in the better part of Bangkok-so we had breakfast at the Marriot this morning. He sides with Kenh, after all, he says, dosa arises often hence why not of the level that sanctions shooting an irritating neighbour. After all we are not sotapanna. And of course Scott's conventionally good act could have been hiding some akusala: Scotts possible thinking process: 'That idiot, but anyway i am a good Buddhist and I will prove it' Shovels snow for idiotic neigbour. 'I really am rather sublime. I wonder if i might be a sotapanna and didn't realize it?' 'Must be close to it, I can hardly wait to report this to dsg, wonder if anyone will recognize my paramis'...'Maybe I should open a new website..www.theultimateway_to_paranibbana.com . I could appoint RobEp and PT as assistant teachers (better make that PROBATIONARY assistant teachers)... I can make videos and put them om youtube'" Scott: Brilliant! And of course the 'act' wasn't entirely (if at all) kusala. An 'act' takes too long to achieve and is composed of many, many moments. Ken O. thinks concepts are objects of satipa.t.thaana. Well, I think that goes too far, but I did think about the neighbour and my fantasies about his potentially equally difficult life at least contributed to the snow shoveling instead of the glock. I still think shooting my dog will solve the whole problem: no more dog shit when there is no more dog! Oh, but that's still killing, isn't it? Scott. #120448 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:33 pm Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism scottduncan2 Ken H., KH: "...So, is the snow shoveler any more Buddhist than the rampaging gunman? I say no; there are concepts and there are realities, and never the twain shall meet..." Scott: No. There are no buddhists. I think that's dumb. And a 'snow shoveler' is like a 'meditator.' Right? But, the finding myself shoveling snow and not putting the shit on his porch, or shooting him, or whatever else - that 'act' came out of what? You can see Ken O. saying that it was satipa.t.thaana of concepts (assuming it was a 'buddhist act' - ha ha). Scott. #120449 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:53 pm Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism scottduncan2 Phil, Ph: "Guns? A real Canadian would know what to do..." Scott: Yeah! Ph: "...I think we go to far if we deny that the failure to avoid causing harm to others (whether by shooting, slander or headcrunching) is not strongly censured (censored?) by the Buddha. Fortunately we understand that rather than being satisfied and proud of avoiding hurting others by our conventional behaviour, void of panna, the development of satipatthana will foster the dhammas that create the concept of 'avoding hurting others.' And that panna will continue to develop as all the many kusala factors that together create the conventional behaviour of 'not killing' (how many kusala dhammas in one wholesome moment? 19, or something like that) develop along with it. Understanding is always best, it is the only way out." Scott: I don't recall thinking about 'buddhism' at all by the time I was shoveling the snow. I'd thought about the guy, had my fantasies about his situation, and then shovelled snow, said goodbye to my daughter, and went to indoor-soccer practise. I think I did have some smug thoughts about not doing anything but shovel snow, but that was after - and not kusala at all. Did I 'understand' anything? I don't know. Scott. #120450 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:59 pm Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism kenhowardau Hi Scott, ---------- > Scott: No. There are no buddhists. I think that's dumb. And a 'snow shoveler' is like a 'meditator.' Right? But, the finding myself shoveling snow and not putting the shit on his porch, or shooting him, or whatever else - that 'act' came out of what? ---------- KH: Was there an act? Some of us (including both meditators and non-meditators) will say there was, others of us (also including meditators and non-meditators) will say there wasn't. I say there wasn't, but I suspect I am disagreeing with people who know better. The ancient commentaries, for example, say that the Dhamma was both ultimately true *and* conventionally true. That means the various sentient beings and the activities we read about in the suttas really did happen that way. Who am I to argue? And yet I still have contrary theories. Most of which I manage to keep to myself. :-) Ken H #120451 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 16-nov-2011, om 18:35 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > > N: We still have moha and uddhacca, but after that can you not stay > on as chief? If you keep it short and several of us add something, > D: ... > Actually one may ask ,why not to discuss what you already have > written about the Cetasikashttp://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/ > index.html (?) > Certainly a way to do respectively what has been done in the > previous discussions . > However there may be an advantage to start with , what -at least > for me - is an easier way: to talk about one's understanding acc. > to experience and studies, before we look deeper into the Abh. > framework , you present with the book. > Assumed of course that - whenever it is convenient - you will > participate in the discussion already in an early stage. > -------- > N: As you said before, examples in daily life are important. Also at the beginning some texts are good so that we do not lose track. Above all I am thinking of spoon feeding. ------ Nina. #120452 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] santhana pannatti and santati pannatti nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 15-nov-2011, om 9:47 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > What is a difference between santhana and santati pannatti? I need > some details. ------ N: sa.n.thaana: series or continuity, refers to the arising and falling away of cittas in succession, in their own series. As pa~n~natti: we see people. In reality seeing sees what is visible and thinking defines it as a thing or person. We take different cittas together. Santati: a concept of mountain is given as an example. Again a whole, but in reality there are different elements arising and falling away. It seems that it is also applicable to cittas. The meanings of these two terms seem to be close. Anyway, it refers to a distorted view of reality. Nina. #120453 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:33 pm Subject: Re: The camp thing... sarahprocter... Hi All & Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: >...But to be perfectly honest I would still like to see all "the suttas say so!" folk disappear and have no one but students of A.Sujin here. > p.s I will be leaving the group (again) as soon as this is posted, so no further comment possible. We can talk about it in KK. ..... S: Just went back exactly one year and looked at the messages written over just 3 or 4 days in mid-Nov 2010. Should the writer of the following extracts have been banned? Should the writer have been banned from KK instead of invited and welcomed? I can't see any point in discussing "the camp thing" further here or in KK, but that's just my thinking - I just have no interest in it. Like the 'shovelling', more situations, more scenarios, more proliferation and very little understanding of dhammas right now! Praise and Blame, Gain and Loss.... Metta Sarah From mid-Nov 2010 "Ph: I persponally think there is more patience at work for me than for people who are interested in perceiving the reality now in daily life, there is patience for me because there are conditions for me to be fully devoted to the Buddha's teaching without having much interest in deep, paramattha topics. To be honest, I think having an interest in a paramattha understanding of reality in daily life is akin to having one's cake and insighting it too. I would rather not mix paramattha topics with my comfortable householder's life, it is a kind of corruption of the deep teachings, in my opinion. " "Well, sorry, but I'm afraid you folks (who listen a lot to A.S) are not in the position to talk about right understanding of dhammas, and insight, because you do not follow the Buddha's way to create the conditions for insight. (There is not right concentration for you.)" "Nothing personal, Sarah and Nina, I am always so grateful for the way you get me thinking about Dhamma, but I am also very grateful to the Buddha that I will not accept the idea that instead of stopping harmful deeds with painful struggle, and in tears, it would be better to understand the anatta nature of the harmful deed one is doing, that if there is too much hard trying, it is self, and therefore wrong. Because this will condition a lazy attitude towards such deeds, I speak from experience...." "The Buddha uses his listeners sense of self-esteem at times to discourage bad deeds, saying in one sutta "this is a way for inferior people, it is not for superior people, this is not for me." People can say that sutta is about dhammas, not people, and maybe even the commentary says that, but I will not believe that that paramattha interpretation of such a sutta was the Buddha's intent...he understood that when defilements are powerful and understanding is weak, subtle, paramattha interpretations can just end up adding to the fire by discouraging the necessary remedy, doing whatever is necessary to start putting out the fire. Understanding the nature of fire won't do that." ""What else can he do?" Nina, that is a pretty odd way to describe the monk's practice of tranquility meditation as taught in Vism. Please reconsider that wording, there are reasons to doubt the suitability of meditation for householders, but I feel you are (unintentionally) denigrating the Buddha's teaching here...please don't allow desire to maintain logical consistency in your teacher's approach (doing that peculiar dance that is unique to students of AS in order to get around the "there are the roots of trees" passage) get in the way of common sense and veneration for the Buddha's teaching..." **** INTERLUDE Now the next one's a real gem: **** "I was inspired the other day by writing an imitation of one of the poems from Theragatha. Please allow me to write another one. I sat studying Theragatha at Starbucks when a woman sat in front of me and there was awareness of her and Mara appeared in the form of the mole just above her breast accompanied by his army - the swelling of the breast, and the gold pendant hanging there, and the smokey light in her eyes, as she glanced at me. But there was firm resolution and No! there will not be proliferation here and now there will not be further accumualtion of suffering here and now and there and then I lived in that moment the holy life, though suffering, and in tears. And I went back to my book. But Mara appeared again in the form of the moke just above her breast accompanied by his army - the swelling of the breast, and the gold pendant hanging there, and the smokey light in her eyes, as she glanced at me. And there was wavering, and the urge to proliferate. And Mara saw an opportunity and appeared in the form of Sarah's words (which he paraphrased) and said "what is all your trying except self wanting this, self wanting that? What is all your trying except ignorance? Understand the present reality And be free." But there was firm resolution and No! there will not be proliferation here and now there will not be further accumualtion of suffering here and now and there and then I lived in that moment the holy life, though suffering, and in tears. And I went back to my book. But Mara appeared again in the form of the moke just above her breast accompanied by his army - the swelling of the breast, and the gold pendant hanging there, and the smokey light in her eyes, as she glanced at me. And there was wavering, and the urge to proliferate. And Mara saw an opportunity and appeared in Nina's words from the introduction of "The Conditionality of Life" and said "The Patthana also explains that akusala can be the object of kusala, for example, when akusala is considered with insight. This is an essential point which is often overlooked. If one thinks that akusala cannot be object of awareness and right understanding, the right Path cannot be overlooked." And Mara in the form of Nina's words invited me to have insight on the anatta nature of harmful proliferation, for it is only in understanding the present reality that one can really be free. But there was firm resolution and No! there will not be proliferation here and now there will not be further accumualtion of suffering here and now and there and then I lived in that moment the holy life, though suffering, and in tears. And I went back to my book And I stayed there in the company of the inspirational ones who crossed to the far shore." **** #120454 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:55 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > Though I have probably sufficient time , my way of going into details ( German mode of 'gruendlich') has the disadvantage of slow progress , i.e. hardly keeping it short. But let us see , how far it may go / how it is appreciated by members. ... S: I think your way is fine and the emphasis on daily life examples works well. There's no hurry at all and anyone can follow any tangents or go into whatever detail they like. I think the threads on ahirika and anottappa which in the end almost all the regular posters have contributed to, have been very interesting and lively. Just continue as you feel inclined and those who disagree with this are also welcome. Just like being at a large family gathering - noisy at times, but opportunities to be aware anytime. In another message you wrote: "As I understand, DSG is a Theravada Buddhist list , which offers a forum for different schools within the scope of the Tipitaka. And as such ,Khun Sujin like any other Dhamma teacher or 'camp' , is subject to canonical examination . Isn't this correct?" ... S: Of course. K.Sujin is always the first person to say that it's not her teaching and that what's important is exploring and understanding the Buddha's Teachings. For this, every word has to be carefully examined, questioned and considered. Forget about all this "camp" and "follower" talk! Metta Sarah p.s Nina & friends, I just heard from Vince & Nancy who've just returned from a 3 month retreat in the States with a well-known Jhana Ajahn. They are planning a much longer one next year. For others, our old friend Vince has been listening to K.Sujin off and on since the early 70s. In other words, lots and lots of different accumulations, changing from moment to moment for us all. One "camp" one moment, another "camp" another moment. All anatta and useless to cling to ideas of A being in "camp A" or "camp B", as I see it. ========= #120455 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 14-nov-2011, om 17:48 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > D: I think there is consensus understanding on the importance of > understanding vipaka or old kamma and new kamma . > Although both are part of citta, new kamma is a choice conditioned > by cetasika, in particular by sankhara khanda. > There are kind of automatic habits , which we are usually not aware > of (lack of sati ) . > However the willed action here and now (new kamma.. vipaka in > future ) is the deed under our ' management' . > This 'management ' misses a personal core , instead constitutes > itself as a stream of interrelated / conditioned mental / material > phenomena/dhammas, but of cource not without (moral) responsibility > on our part ( 'us ' refers to the individual, but in principal > common D.O. process) > The quailty of 'management' is determined by the level of sati and > panna being in place.. > > I wonder how far you may agree with me ..... it isn't easy to find > a common language , is it? ------- N: Difficult. We try to chose words that can help people. You explain that this management is also conditioned and non-self. We understand this in theory. But when we hear the word management there is still a lingering idea of 'I can do it'. That is why I would prefer: beyond control, not possible to manipulate or direct dhammas. You say: but of course not without (moral) responsibility on our part ( 'us ' refers to the individual, but in principal common D.O. process). Beyond control does not mean acting in an irresponsible way. We often discussed this before. As you also say: sati and pa~n~naa. I find that dhammas arise and fall away so fast, before we realize it we give in to akusala. I accompanied Lodewijk to a lecture on the European Community. A young lady said to me: not sure there was a seat for me, but if someone else would not come, she gave me a chance. I had aversion, and conceit: how can she do this to me? I met an author on the subject who had known my late father who had done so much for the coming into being of the European community. I mentioned that I was his daughter. He reacted coolly, turned his back and walked away. Again conceit, aversion. Later on I realized with shame what happened. Shame: this was also with aversion. Not the wholesome hiri. The word shame can mislead us. It is usually afterwards that we realize what happened. Dhammas are so fast, they are beyond control. Nina. #120456 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:02 pm Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism sarahprocter... Hi Ken H (& Snow Shovellers), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > Who am I to argue? And yet I still have contrary theories. Most of which I manage to keep to myself. :-) ... S: No need to not argue or hold back ;-) Let's hear them.... I'd like to hear more about Rob K & Sukin's Marriott discussion too. Can we not encourage Sukin to join in this discussion too, now he no longer needs to pump water out of his house (the Thai equivalent of shovelling snow)? Btw, how's your mother? Metta Sarah p.s I thought your message about the monk's life and paramattha dhammas was very interesting, very deep. ============= #120457 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 17-nov-2011, om 8:55 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > In other words, lots and lots of different accumulations, changing > from moment to moment for us all. One "camp" one moment, another > "camp" another moment. All anatta and useless to cling to ideas of > A being in "camp A" or "camp B", as I see it. ------- N: Quite so. It is beneficial to discuss different cittas and these change all the time. Persons, camps, these are not helpful. It would seem that these are things that exist, situations. We are engaged with situations in daily life, but let us look at the deeper-lying motives behind our actions, speech and thoughts. ------- Nina. #120458 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Metta: so anatta.... sarahprocter... Dear Nina (& Ann), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > I liked all your quotes and observations on Metta. > In a Thai recording (heard this morning): about dosa and its > abandoning. Kh S quoted from the Dispeller of Delusion, CH VII. > 1252: The arising of ill-will comes about through unwise bringing to > mind (ayoniso manaasikaara) in regard to the sign of resentment > (pa.tighanimitta). Herein, resentment is the "sign of resentment" and > also the object of resentment is the "sign of resentment". > Kh Sujin explained that all objects through the six doors can be > nimitta of dosa. .... S: So true. As discussed, just elements experienced through the various doorways that are the nimitta of dosa. If there were no visible objects, sounds, smells, tastes or tangible objects, there'd be no dosa on their account. We forget all the time that it is the thinking with ignorance about what is experienced through the sense doors that conditions all the dosa (and lobha). ... > Yoniso manasikaara (right attention) is stressed for the > abandonment of dosa. > The Dispeller of Delusion, CH VII, at end,1256: "Furthermore, six > things lead to the abandoning of ill-will: 1. the acquiring of the > sign of amity. 2. devotion to the development of amity. 3. Reviewing > ownership of kamma. 5. good friendship. 6. suitable talk." ... S: When we think about others or how they've behaved, I don't think we can underestimate the value of metta. This doesn't mean "trying to have metta" but being understanding of others acting out of ignorance, just like us. We, at least, have had the good fortune to have heard (and understood a little) about the Dhamma. So, being friendly and understanding without expectations. ... > > So touching to hear our late friend Khun Bong saying that since she > heard dhamma, and learnt about kamma and its result it made so much > difference to her. When experiencing an unpleasant object through the > bodysense or through the other senses, she learnt that these are just > results of kamma. ... S: A great blessing to have heard this and to be able to appreciate it. It can bring calm with understanding instead of more dosa. I had lunch with a very old friend and heard about the health problems she and her husband have. No suitable opportunities to mention kamma and vipaka, just opportunities for metta and understanding. As you say, life is very, very short - too short to go on accumulating dosa about useless things. Still, it all depends on conditions, on accumulations at the time. Just as I wrote this, I looked out of the window and saw that they've put up the Christmas lights, flashing stars and reindeer, all over the building outside ours. In a flash, many moments of seeing of many different visible objects, many, many mind-door processes in between them, some with instant lobha with stories about the pretty lights and some with instant dosa with stories about the customs and flashing all over Hong Kong..... All, so uncontrollable.... Metta Sarah ==== #120459 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sati each moment! was:Buddha recommended striving sarahprocter... Hi Lukas & All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > >L: Sarah wrote of patience, that is patient to its object. It is detached to it. It doesnt expect. > >P: I think it is good to know that alobha accompanies each and every kusala dhamma. In the past when I heard A.Sujin say there must be detachment from the beginning, I took it as an impossible demand. But now I see it is for real. There are not many kusala dhammas, but we know there are some, and they are always accompanied by alobha. When there is kusala, there is no concern for ourself - that in itself tells us how rare kusala must be. But we keep listening, reflecting, studying, discussing, conditions for kusala are being established. ... S: Very well said by Phil. When there is alobha, there is detachment, there is kusala viriya, patient to what is experienced now. There is also akusala viriya, akusala patience. For example, someone might look so patient as they wait in line for an ice-cream or to get money out of the bank, but when it's not concerned with dana, sila or bhavana, it's bound to be akusala patience, such as when there is concern for oneself. As Phil said, "that in itself tells us how rare kusala must be"!! Metta Sarah ===== #120460 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:00 pm Subject: Re: Perfections, was: Pt's Galaxy ... sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > L: And sakkaya ditthi and atthanuditthi what they mean? .... S: Like now, when we look at the screen, as we know it's only visible object which is seen, but immediately there are ideas of screen and words. Is there an idea of 'something' which lasts? When there is, it's attanuditthi. Is that screen taken for oneself or part of oneself? No, so it's not sakkaya ditthi. In the end, like the classifications of 'inner' and 'outer' in the Satipatthana Sutta, visible object is just visible object, tangible object is just tangible object and it makes no difference whether it's taken for 'oneself', 'the other' or 'a thing'. Just dhammas. Metta Sarah p.s I'm glad that Nina was able to send you some more books and that you've been reading these! Did you start the teaching job you told me about? ===== #120461 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:00 pm Subject: Dribble Was: Looks like Buddhism dhammasaro Good friends all, So many good Thai friends and in-laws experienced since July, over half of the Thai provinces (states) are/have been flooded!!! Many we have not been able to contact!!! [Extract] I'd like to hear more about Rob K & Sukin's Marriott discussion too. Can we not encourage Sukin to join in this discussion too, now he no longer needs to pump water out of his house (the Thai equivalent of shovelling snow)? [End extract] There is no equivalent "of shoveling snow" and having "flood water from two feet in the first floor to water beginning to flood the second floor"!!!! There is no equivalent "of shoveling snow" and seeing ones' home floating away... What stupid dribble!!! What Buddhist ignorance!!! Wake up!!! Chuck #120462 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:15 pm Subject: Re: The more we do not think about oneself that's the right way to ... sarahprocter... Dear Connie (& Howard), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > c: It's probably better if we don't call kiriya or vipaka cittas 'causal states'. I think it's only the types called avajjana / adverting & votthapana / determining that are kiriya cittas for the non-arahant. "I think" because I'm not all that clear on the difference between those types, other than which door they're at or are. For the arahant, also the javanas are kiriyas. .... S: Also, in all sense door processes for all, the 4 five-sense-door-adverting-consciousness (pa~ncadvaaraavajjana citta), which arises before the dvi-pan~cavi~n~naana cittas (seeing, hearing etc) is also a kiriya citta. (It is 'inoperative' - not kusala, akusala or vipaka. It is 'fruitless', just performing its function) The votthapana citta (determining consciousness) which arises in the sense door processes is the same as the mind-door adverting-consciousness, but in the sense-door processes, it perfoms this function of determining. Metta Sarah ==== #120463 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:25 pm Subject: Re: Dribble Was: Looks like Buddhism sarahprocter... Dear Chuck, Apologies for any offence given. In the (admittedly frivolous) example I gave (Sukin's), there was no question of anyone's "home floating away" or any loss of life. I'm sorry to hear that you have been unable to contact many of your friends and in-laws and sincerely hope you're able to do so soon. It is a worldly tragedy, but as this is a Buddhist discussion group, I think we can also point out that, in an ultimate sense, the 'tragedy', the real problem, is in our minds at this very moment. SN, Devaputtasamyutta, 26. Rohitassa "…It is, friend, in just this fathom-long carcass endowed with perception and mind that I make known the world, the origin of the world, the cessation of the world, and the way leading to the cessation of the world…" Metta Sarah ===== #120464 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:23 pm Subject: (No subject) dhammasaro Good friends all, In your way, please chant/meditate/pray for my best friend and lover... [read as wife]... Earlier USA East Coast time, in the very early morning almost 24 hours ago, I took her to the hospitable. They think they need to operate... as the Emergency Room (ER) MD doctor, after some ten (10) hours, finally appeared and asked if she wanted any extraordinary procedures made if she should die on the operating table... she said, "No." I think it is simply a case of "food poisoning." They have not decided yet... I will leave for the hospitable in another three hours... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck #120465 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:28 pm Subject: Chuck's wife sarahprocter... Dear Chuck, Very best wishes to you and your wife. Please let us know how it goes. Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Maipenrai Dhammasaro wrote: > > > Good friends all, > > In your way, please chant/meditate/pray for my best friend and lover... [read as wife]... #120466 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:40 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 201 dhammas to be "directly known" sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello all, > > >Scott: I really sense that Alex is working up to something bigger > >======================================================= > > Yes. All that we can say are words. Even thoughts about something is still thinking. When we consider or conceive something, we consider using words. Words and "what they point to" are different. It is one thing to read the list of ingredients and another one is to actually taste it. .... S: I don't think there's any disagreement about this and no one questions the good quotes you gave from MN 1. Having said that, let's be sure we agree on the following: 1.Thoughts are not thinking. Thoughts are concepts 'thought about'. Thinking is the function of cittas and particular cetasikas. Cittas and cetasikas are realities, thoughts are not. 2. Thinking about concepts of the Dhamma and direct understanding of realities are different. Satipatthana refers to the development of the direct understanding of realities, not to any particular activity. 3. Later you go on to say that "one shouldn't conceive..." and "every kind of conceiving abandoned". In MN 1, the conceiving referred to is that with lobha and ditthi. These are realities which have to be understood when they arise only. Gradually, through such development of understanding they will eventually be eradicated, but never by just thinking "one shouldn't conceive" or by trying to make them disappear or not arise. let me know if we agree so far. Metta Sarah ====== > > > One of the suttas I've had in mind is MN#1 > > "There is the case, monks, where [alex: puthujjana] — perceives *earth as earth. Perceiving earth as earth, he conceives [things] about earth, he conceives [things] in earth, he conceives [things] coming out of earth, he conceives earth as 'mine,' he delights in earth. Why is that? Because he has not comprehended it, I tell you." > [*same is repeated for other 23 items that include within it citta, cetasikas and rupa] > > > Sekha: > "A monk who is a trainee...Directly knowing earth as earth, let him not conceive things about earth, let him not conceive things in earth, let him not conceive things coming out of earth, let him not conceive earth as 'mine,' let him not delight in earth. Why is that? So that he may comprehend it, I tell you." > ======================================================== > > One needs to directly know. One shouldn't conceive things about experience. > > ==================================== > "A monk who is a Worthy One,...directly knows earth as earth. Directly knowing earth as earth, he does not conceive things about earth, does not conceive things in earth, does not conceive things coming out of earth, does not conceive earth as 'mine,' does not delight in earth. Why is that? Because he has comprehended it, I tell you." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.001.than.html > ===================================== > > > So Direct knowledge, not thinking, needs to be developed and every kind of conceiving abandoned. > > ================================================== > "Consciousness without feature,[1] without end, luminous all around: Here water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing. Here long & short coarse & fine fair & foul name & form are all brought to an end." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.11.0.than.html#fnt-1 > ===================================================== > > I understand this to mean that Arhat's consciousness which has seen through concepts does not take a footing, attach or incline to any concept of phenomena including namarupa. Concepts no longer "bother" an Arahant and no conception of what was seen, heard, sensed or cognized can ever negatively affect an Arahant. > > Of course if any phenomena is considered somehow to be ultimate (and thus more worthy than others), this is attachment that cannot be in the Arahant. > > > ============================================================ > ""Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. > "When hearing..."When sensing..."When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer. > > Thus, monks, the Tathagata — being the same with regard to all phenomena that can be seen, heard, sensed, & cognized — is 'Such.' And I tell you: There's no other 'Such' higher or more sublime. > "Whatever is seen or heard or sensed and fastened onto as true by others, One who is Such — among the self-fettered — wouldn't further claim to be true or even false. "Having seen well in advance that arrow where generations are fastened & hung — 'I know, I see, that's just how it is!' — there's nothing of the Tathagata fastened." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.024.than.html > ================================================================== > > With best wishes, > > Alex > #120467 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:32 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Dribble Was: Looks like Buddhism dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, et al No offense taken... you well know my favorite Dhamma-vinaya quote... Thanks for your usual very sterile non-real world Buddhist response, imho... Sincerely, yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck ........... rest deleted ............................................ #120468 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:50 pm Subject: Re: 201 dhammas to be "directly known" sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > >S: It's like in the discussion of the Puggala Pannatti, the Abhidhamma text - sometimes concepts of realities are used, sometimes, concepts about concepts of realities. When we know the Buddha is just pointing to the paramattha dhammas themselves to be known, there's no confusion, no matter what words are used. That's why I had pointed to this text at the beginning of Ptsm with regard to kasinas too. it's easy to overlook the pointing to realities here. > > Ph: In the satipatthana sutta, and elsewhere, the modes of deportment, same thing? Walking, standing, etc, but actually pointing to the rupas involved. ... S: yes, exactly, as the commentary makes clear. ... > If concepts of body parts are included in this list of 201, I wonder why not concepts of modes of deportment. Is "hair" any more or less real than "walking?" .... S: All just concepts pointing to paramattha dhammas. Just examples given. .... > > > Another good example is in the description of visible objects in the Dhammasangani, the first text of the Abhidhamma. We read: > > > > "What is the corperality which is a visible object that causes the > > arising of eye-consciousness? > > > > Dependent on the 4 primary elements, there is the corporality which > > is visible, which arises with impingement and is of various colours: > > dark blue, pale yellow (etc, snip) > > > Ph: I see, interesting! > > I see sunshine is in there, and light. I heard that light is said to be one of the conditions for seeing to arise, A.S said it is just an aspect of visible object. But what if it is so bright it hurts our eyes? In that case, as difficult as it is to understand, there is hardness impinging on the eye sense, at a different moment. Right? ... S: yes, different processes - moments of visible object (impinging on the eye-sense) seen. At other moments, hardness or other tangible objects impinging on the body-sense, such as when we squint. Same with sounds impinging on the ear-sense, but sometimes, it's very loud and it's painful, then again, tangible object impinging on the body-sense. (I often have to wear ear-plugs, such as in the cinema or on the bus in India, because of this!). There was one point from one of your earlier set of comments (from Nepal) when you wondered about a qu Jon raised. It was on this topic. nntr or K for KK! Metta Sarah ===== #120469 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:40 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Chuck's wife dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, I've enlisted two Thai-American MDs to review her case later this morning... she did not want me to bother them... does any husband ever always listen??? [verily beeg Texican grins] Sincere warm thanks for yours best wishes... no doubt you are writing in the vernacular... everyday common language... sincerely, it is very much appreciated... And, "metta" as in the Brahma-vihara sincerely sent to you and yours.... Loving-kindness meditation later today especially to you and yours... peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck ........... rest deleted ............................ #120470 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:02 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 201 dhammas to be "directly known" sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Alex), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: >A: The Abhidhamma Pitaka says what it says. 5 aggregate, 12 spheres, 18 > elements, 4 truths, 22 faculties are pannatti. > -------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > I'm confused, Alex: Aggregates (khandhas) are collections, hence > concepts, and truths are concepts, I would think. However, ayatana, dhatu, and > indriya are considered paramattha dhammas, are they not? > ------------------------------------------------- S: Firstly, Alex, the Abhidhamma Pitaka refers to kinds of pannatti, including pannatti about the realities above as discussed to exhaustion. Secondly, Howard, I've come to conclude that "aggregates" is a very confusing translation of khandhas. The khandhas are just as much paramattha dhammas as are the ayatanas, dhatus or indriyas. Each rupa is khandha. Each vedana and so on. Khandha, as I understand, refers to the *distinction* between each conditioned dhamma. So the rupa appearing now through the eye-sense is different from the one that appeared a moment ago and different from the one that is appearing a moment later. Each one falls away, never to appear again. So this is why we read about the eleven-fold classification: "Whatever form is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: that is called the aggregate of form." S: In other words, each form, each rupa is khandha and the same for the other dhammas. Metta Sarah ====== #120471 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Aggregates, spheres, elements,...= concepts? sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, A T wrote: > "'the individual has no real existence. The term 'puggala' does not mean anything real." > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/72336 > > I agree that puggala is not anything ultimately real. However, the same must be said about "aggregate, sphere, element, truth, faculty" because they are listed as paññatti alongside puggalapaññatti. > > "1. Cha paññattiyo â€" khandhapaññatti, Äyatanapaññatti, dhÄtupaññatti, saccapaññatti, indriyapaññatti, puggalapaññattÄ«ti." .... S: All concepts pointing to realities. Now, there can be direct understanding of the reality itself. You mentioned that citta cannot know itself. However, it has its particular characteristic which can be known immediately. This is "present" understanding, quite different from thinking of a concept about citta. ... > > Six concepts in the same line include "aggregate, sphere, element, truth, faculty" and person, without distinguishing them as different types of concepts. > > My understanding is that whenever one says anything from "Person" to "Citta," all these words, no matter how precise and technical, as words, are all concepts. Some more precise, some less. But still paññatti. Don't cling to any of them. .... S: Yes, these are all pannatti. Now as we discuss 'person' or 'citta' it is pannatti which are being discussed. However, even now there are realities themselves, such as citta or rupa, such as seeing or visible object which can be directly known without any words or concepts. Is there doubt now about whether a reality can be directly known? This is thinking or doubt. Isn't it real now? Can't it be directly known now? Metta Sarah ===== #120472 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Puggala pa~n~natti sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >Sarah wrote: We can then read the entire text of >"Puggala->pa~n~nati" >with > >a)an understanding that all the references to people are >designations >or sammutisacca, pointing to various combinations of >cittas, cetasikas >and rupas, or > >b) with an understanding, like the Puggalavaadins, that in each > >example, 'the person is known in the sense of a real and ultimate > >fact.... > >------ > >N: I prefer option a. > >============================================================ > >A: Why no 3rd option? Puggala as a concept exists in the same conceptional way as collection of citta, cetasikas and rupa? > > Collection is a concept. Citta always arise as collection of citta + 7 cetasikas (usually much more). Rupa always arises as a collection of at least 8 rupas... ... S: Yes, "collection" is a concept. However, the reality of citta and the cetasikas themselves which arise with the citta now are not concepts. Even if there is no idea about them, even if they're never thought about, even if no Buddha ever pointed them out, such realities arise and fall away at each and every moment now. The same applies to the rupas. Yes, when we talk about collections of rupas, we're referring to concepts about particular realities. Now, even if there is no thought, no mention, no knowledge at all about rupas, there are various rupas arising and falling away together throughout what we refer to as 'our body' and outside the body. How do we know? Because the Buddha pointed out the truth about all these paramattha dhammas and he pointed to the way in which realities can be directly understood now. Metta Sarah ====== #120473 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:23 pm Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, Back to the beginning... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > Nyanatiloka Buddhist Dictionary: > ahirika -anottappa: 'lack of moral shame and dread', are two of the 4 unwholesome factors associated with all kammically unwholesome states of consciousness, the two others being restlessness (uddhacca) and delusion (moha). Cf. Tab. II."There are two sinister things, namely, lack of moral shame and dread, etc." (A. II, 6). "Not to be ashamed of what one should be ashamed of; not to be ashamed of evil, unwholesome things: this is called lack of moral shame" (Pug. 59). "Not to dread what one should dread ... this is called lack of moral dread (Pug. 60). ... S: Good, as long as one doesn't misunderstand "shame" and "dread" to involve any unpleasant feeling or aversion or fear. ... > Nice following Mahayana texts after some contemplation of the topics' : > For all the evil deeds I have done in the past, > Created by my body, speech and mind, > From beginningless greed, hatred and delusion, > I now know shame and repent them all. > Traditional Repentance Verse from "The Practices & Vows of Samantabadra Bodhisattva" (Avatamsaka Sutra, Chapter 40 > > to be continued .. assumed a positive reaction ;-) ... S: Not so positive for the Mahayana text quoted. Ideas of shame and repentance about all past evil would not have anything to do with hiri and ottappa which arise with all moments of kusala only. Again, it comes back to the cittas now.... Metta Sarah ====== #120474 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The camp thing... upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 11/16/2011 11:10:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, philco777@... writes: Thanks as always Sarah and Jon and Nina, and my apologies to all for any unpleasant moments caused by my harsh comments. But to be perfectly honest I would still like to see all "the suttas say so!" folk disappear -------------------------------------------- HCW: Everybody, from each supposed "camp" points to the suttas to "make their case". (Just like all the competing bible religionists love to quote scripture to make their case!) Gosh, sometimes - most often not, though - a smile comes to my face in thinking of John Lennon's "Imagine no religion". ;-) ---------------------------------------------- and have no one but students of A.Sujin here. --------------------------------------------- HCW: I suppose there is some charm to be found in insularity. It does have its limitations, though. ----------------------------------------------- That's not going to happen, and fair enough, so it is me who should disappear. ---------------------------------------------------------- HCW: So, if there is aversion to circumstances, in one way or another they must change? What about the possibility of acceptance, nonresistance, and benefiting from considering various perspectives? ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #120475 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] upasaka_howard Dear Chuck - In a message dated 11/17/2011 4:26:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, dhammasaro@... writes: Good friends all, In your way, please chant/meditate/pray for my best friend and lover... [read as wife]... Earlier USA East Coast time, in the very early morning almost 24 hours ago, I took her to the hospitable. They think they need to operate... as the Emergency Room (ER) MD doctor, after some ten (10) hours, finally appeared and asked if she wanted any extraordinary procedures made if she should die on the operating table... she said, "No." I think it is simply a case of "food poisoning." They have not decided yet... I will leave for the hospitable in another three hours... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck ===================================== I'm so sorry about this! I pray that all will be well for your partner and you. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #120476 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:54 pm Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism scottduncan2 Ken H., KH: "Was there an act? Some of us (including both meditators and non-meditators) will say there was, others of us (also including meditators and non-meditators) will say there wasn't. I say there wasn't, but I suspect I am disagreeing with people who know better.' Scott: I don't know better except that the 'act' is construed, right? Even while 'shoveling snow' the famous 'experience' is happening. This amounts to a lot of memory and thinking and whatnot based on the taking for 'shoveling snow' what is actually many, many multiply-constituted moments arising and falling away. This is why the experience-seekers are wrong. Many would only stop at considering the so-called 'act' - the 'shoveling snow.' Many would think this is being kind to the neighbour or shows that I replaced dosa with dana. There wasn't enough awareness - again looking retrospectively - to be able to say this. But then that's only thinking about 'an act' and, worse, post hoc. K: "The ancient commentaries, for example, say that the Dhamma was both ultimately true *and* conventionally true. That means the various sentient beings and the activities we read about in the suttas really did happen that way. Who am I to argue? And yet I still have contrary theories. Most of which I manage to keep to myself..." Scott: What theories? Are they like really evil or something? I've read the commentaries to use conventional speech but I've always thought that there was only one reality. Do you see it otherwise? Scott. #120477 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:04 am Subject: Re: Dribble Was: Looks like Buddhism scottduncan2 Chuck, C: "There is no equivalent 'of shoveling snow' and having 'flood water from two feet in the first floor to water beginning to flood the second floor'!!!!There is no equivalent 'of shoveling snow' and seeing ones' home floating away..." Scott: I like the pun - 'dribble' and 'flood water' - good one. The word I learned to express such dismay as yours was 'drivel' but whatevs. And sure there are many equivalents all over the world to the flooding in Thailand. Have you never been in a three-day blizzard? Don't they have tornadoes in Texas? Droughts? Etc.? Scott. #120478 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 201 dhammas to be "directly known" upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 11/17/2011 5:02:11 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (& Alex), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: >A: The Abhidhamma Pitaka says what it says. 5 aggregate, 12 spheres, 18 > elements, 4 truths, 22 faculties are pannatti. > -------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > I'm confused, Alex: Aggregates (khandhas) are collections, hence > concepts, and truths are concepts, I would think. However, ayatana, dhatu, and > indriya are considered paramattha dhammas, are they not? > ------------------------------------------------- S: Firstly, Alex, the Abhidhamma Pitaka refers to kinds of pannatti, including pannatti about the realities above as discussed to exhaustion. Secondly, Howard, I've come to conclude that "aggregates" is a very confusing translation of khandhas. The khandhas are just as much paramattha dhammas as are the ayatanas, dhatus or indriyas. Each rupa is khandha. Each vedana and so on. Khandha, as I understand, refers to the *distinction* between each conditioned dhamma. So the rupa appearing now through the eye-sense is different from the one that appeared a moment ago and different from the one that is appearing a moment later. Each one falls away, never to appear again. So this is why we read about the eleven-fold classification: "Whatever form is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: that is called the aggregate of form." S: In other words, each form, each rupa is khandha and the same for the other dhammas. Metta Sarah ============================== This is just a matter of language use, but I disagree with the usefulness of yours in this case. A khandha is a heap/collection/mass. To say that each rupa is khandha is like saying that each of us here is DSG. It's not so: Each of us here is a member of (or participant in) DSG. It's also like saying that each cell in the body is body. That is also not so. The "Each rupa is khandha" terminology treats the noun 'khandha' as if it were an adjective. The problem with that, IMO, is confusion, lack of clarity, and a danger of reification. If, as you say, khandhas are paramattha dhammas, then what sort of paramattha dhamma is the rupakkhandha? Is it a rupa? If so, is it a visible object? A sound? An odor? Etc? If it is a paramattha dhamma, it must be a very specific one of these, and not all of them. The only way to be all is to be a collection. Again, this only discusses language usage, and not the Dhamma. So, not critical. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #120479 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:25 am Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? ptaus1 Hi RobK, part 1 > RK: myself I just write and think while writing. pt: Ok, and I'm sure there can be moments of bhavana during writing and thinking, in particular regarding understanding a/kusala now. > RK: Do you think some people might be concerned about the Dhamma and just want to point out what's right and what's not. pt: Ok, though I'd stress that right understanding of dhamma is not about the words and sentences, but about understanding the moment now. I.e. it's possible to say something "right" (in line with the Dhamma) but that doesn't necessarily mean cittas and cetasikas at the time are "right" (kusala) as well, does it? Basically, cheating dhammas - that's a great topic. > RK: For me I prefer reading a direct post that explains Dhamma correctly rather than a lovingly written post by someone with wrong view> But of course that is about styles and preferences. pt: Isn't all that stuff about styles and preferences just about "me" really? > RK: You see someone with rightview can still have dosa, in fact the rightview can condition dosa(when they read a post saying something Adhamma) pt: This is tricky, I'd like to clarify: 1. kusala can condition akusala, akusala can condition kusala, etc, sure. But, what does that mean? Imo while kusala can be one of the conditions for subsequent arising of akusala (like you mention right view as condition for dosa), dosa would still arise primarily due to akusala accumulations (so past dosa, moha, etc)? In other words, it's not like kusala actually conditions more akusala, and akusala conditions more kusala, is it? If it was, it would be too tempting to start justifying dosa with right view akin to how meditators justify akusala sitting with the idea that it will cause sati to arise eventually becuase patthana says that akusala can condition kusala, or even how Christians justify righteous anger, etc. 2. If dosa is happening now, it comes with moha, and well, this is akusala, and so it should be known as akusala, no? Of course, not as intended practice to catch dosa, but as sati and panna arising now. 3. To clarify once again - there can be saying something in line with the dhamma, but that doesn't necessarily guarantee kusala cittas at the time? 4. Further, I wonder if it is possible to say something in line with the Dhamma, and yet there to be cittas with ditthi at the time? > RK: ...and so they write a post that is partly conditioned by dosa and partly by their right view. pt: Understandable, and I think most of the time there's confusion between right view and "I'm right" or "this only is right" types of delusion - cheating dhammas are very tricky. Best wishes pt #120480 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:25 am Subject: [dsg] Re: 201 dhammas to be "directly known" scottduncan2 Howard and Sarah, H: "...Again, this only discusses language usage, and not the Dhamma. So, not critical." Scott: I disagree, Howard. It's not at all just about 'language usage.' You are saying something totally different from what Sarah is saying. Your take on it, and your understanding of 'language' differs significantly from Sarah's. The two of you do not agree on fundamentals, not just 'language usage.' Concepts can be about Dhamma or concepts can be about Adhamma. Scott. #120481 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:27 am Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? ptaus1 Hi RobK, part 2 > RK: I happen to think it is the view that is important- not how much they cared and worried about whether the readers were amenable to what they wrote. pt: I think this is a bit of a strawman - concern with other's amenability is not an indicator of a kusala citta now. Rather, the indicator of kusala citta now would be concern for their welfare. This "concern for their welfare" is basically equivalent to adosa, metta, compassion, etc, which arise with a kusala citta. On the other hand, does care about other's amenability equal to caring how others will react to my words? Perhaps, but I think neither of these two really hit the mark - rather, if there's a kusala citta, there's caring for the other's welfare - i.e. there's no need for additional intentional caring for their reaction, amenability, etc. Similarly, imo kusala citta doesn't equal to "I don't care about other's reaction and amenability" attitude, just like it doesn't equal to "I intentionally care about other's reactions and amenability". I think both of these would be akusala, and both extremes are avoided by a simple kusala citta that is concerned with other's welfare. > RK: We love to judge people and think that if someone writes politely and patiently then that shows their innate wisdom and character. But, as Scott has pointed out, we might be wrong. pt: Sure, though imo that's not really the issue in a dhamma discussion, but rather, it was about minding one's own cittas, as in panna and sati knowing if there's a/kusala now. With that (which is also kusala citta), politeness and patience arise no matter what one happens to be doing. Don't see much need in discussing faked politeness and patience, which we all agree are akusala. > RK: So I will continue on with my confrontational, strawman arguments. Its my posting style. Scott will probably do the same with his way. pt: Ok, I'll keep questioning it as I think purposefully maintaining and defending a posting style (like you and Scott do) mostly just has to do with "me" stuff. > RK: Luckily the list has Elders who can be an example of all the good qualities you wish that the rest of have. pt: Maybe it would be more useful to take my questioning in terms of discussing what's a/kusala, so just a chance to be reminded about a/kusala, rather than demands/wishes that you behave this or that way. You question my right/wrong view, so basically discussing a/kusala, and I find it helpful. Very easy to fall prey to cheating dhammas, so reminders and discussion along those lines always seems helpful, as long as we don't take it personally, which happens though. Best wishes pt #120482 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:34 am Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? ptaus1 Hi Scott, > pt: "...the intention to share this or some other knowledge intellectually with others afterwards, like in a discussion, imo can be kusala only if the intention has to do with the welfare of others, as in the welfare of listeners/readers. If it's not shared for their welfare, then what is the intention behind saying it? I can only see it as akusala, as in about 'me'..." > > Scott: It appears that you are saying that all that has to be done to ensure that kusala is present is for a person to 'intend' that it be so by somehow thinking or wishing that the discussion be for the welfare of others. pt: Things would be pretty easy if that was all that was needed. But, that's not how things are. > Scott: It is this sentiment that brings into question your comprehension of anatta. pt: Yes, I see how it would appear that way. So, intention as in cetana that takes the same object as the citta(s) - concept of a person, rather than intention as in "intending" something to be this or that. Also, thank you for the time you took to reply to my posts, interesting discussions, soeey I'm slow, will get to responding as soon as I manage to finish the report on discussions in Manly. Best wishes pt #120483 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 201 dhammas to be "directly known" upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 11/17/2011 8:25:46 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Howard and Sarah, H: "...Again, this only discusses language usage, and not the Dhamma. So, not critical." Scott: I disagree, Howard. It's not at all just about 'language usage.' You are saying something totally different from what Sarah is saying. ------------------------------------------- HCW: Yes, I am. That fact doesn't make this not a language-use discussion. ----------------------------------------------- Your take on it, and your understanding of 'language' differs significantly from Sarah's. --------------------------------------------- HCW: On this particular matter, yes. ----------------------------------------------- The two of you do not agree on fundamentals, not just 'language usage.' ---------------------------------------------- HCW: I disagree. ------------------------------------------------ Concepts can be about Dhamma or concepts can be about Adhamma. ------------------------------------------------ HCW: This discussion, however, is about grammar. ------------------------------------------------ Scott. ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #120484 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:41 am Subject: Re: is number conceptual or ultimate reality? scottduncan2 pt, pt: "...Yes, I see how it would appear that way. So, intention as in cetana that takes the same object as the citta(s) - concept of a person, rather than intention as in 'intending' something to be this or that." Scott: Yeah, I don't know about this. Ken O. is talking about concepts as objects of satipa.t.thaana but I've not seen his definition of satipa.t.thaana yet. Meditators get hung up with cetanaa too. Careful. pt: "Also, thank you for the time you took to reply to my posts, interesting discussions, sorry I'm slow, will get to responding as soon as I manage to finish the report on discussions in Manly." Scott: Oh, so Rob K. and Manly discussion come before me. And I thought you loved me more than that. Ha ha. Take you time and go one at a time over weeks and weeks. Suck the candy, don't chew it. Scott. #120485 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:00 am Subject: [dsg] Re: 201 dhammas to be "directly known" scottduncan2 Howard, HCW: "...This discussion, however, is about grammar." Scott: And you think that 'grammar' and interpretations based on grammatical distinctions are somehow divorced from meaning? Scott. #120486 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 201 dhammas to be "directly known" upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 11/17/2011 9:01:02 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Howard, HCW: "...This discussion, however, is about grammar." Scott: And you think that 'grammar' and interpretations based on grammatical distinctions are somehow divorced from meaning? Scott. ================================== I think you like to argue. I prefer not to. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #120487 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:09 am Subject: [dsg] Re: 201 dhammas to be "directly known" scottduncan2 Howard, H: "I think you like to argue. I prefer not to." Scott: Just not with me, Howard. A discussion wherein two discussants differ might be called an 'argument.' You 'argue' just as much as the next guy. Scott. #120488 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:07 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project glenjohnann Dear Dieter, Sarah, Phil and others I have very much appreciated the threads on ahiri and anotopa - very valuable. So, this is all unfolding just fine - please accept my encouragement to keep it up! Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > S: I think your way is fine and the emphasis on daily life examples works well. There's no hurry at all and anyone can follow any tangents or go into whatever detail they like. I think the threads on ahirika and anottappa which in the end almost all the regular posters have contributed to, have been very interesting and lively. Just continue as you feel inclined and those who disagree with this are also welcome. Just like being at a large family gathering - noisy at times, but opportunities to be aware anytime. #120489 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:22 am Subject: Re: The camp thing... glenjohnann Hello Phil I have been following your threads with Sarah and Nina on various topics quite closely. Many of your comments have struck me as being most useful and have prompted more consideration of the topic involved. I have really appreciated them. A dana of dhamma - that is what contributions to the discussions can be. And it is so valuable to have the opportunity here to both contribute and appreciate any contributions that come our way. As Achan Sujin has said, and Sarah has emphasized recently, it is the development of understanding that will help one develop patience and tolerance of others' opinions and possible wrong views. Again, discussions are an opportunity ... . Avoidance, just like trying to select situations, is rooted in misunderstanding too. It is the defilements that are the problem, for everyone, not the situations. Again, as Sarah has emphasized, the situations are only concepts and thinking. Not always comforting to hear, but it is true. Different moments will bring different thoughts about your participation and perceptions of the DSG group. It would be a loss to the group should you not continue. Ann #120490 From: Sukinderpal Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dribble Was: Looks like Buddhism sukinderpal Hello Chuck,(Sarah, All), Although I did loose some things and there were some unwanted expenses and more will come, unlike many other people I had enough time to prepare myself. And I was not so unfortunate such as for example, my own sister, who built a wall to stop water from the outside, was forced to make a run for it as the water very quickly started seeping through the tiles inside the house and flooded it in a very short time. Being alone in the house at the time, she was unable to move anything upstairs, which resulted in her loosing almost everything that was there. Although at the conventional level, my own situation is not bad as compared to that of your friends and relatives, I must say that I agree with the suggestion that pumping water and shoveling snow is essentially the same. I was saying to a friend David, last week, that I saw no difference in terms of experiences through the five senses and the mind, before and during the floods. Indeed this was quite encouraging as I noted that the attachments and aversions arose with more or less the same frequency, only that the concepts were different. My wife and children are away in India and I told David that at this time instead of worrying about them, I now worry about the water getting into my house and thieves breaking into it. And this just showed that these unwholesome tendencies got their way as they always do. Had my house got fully flooded or is robbed (which can still happen), I'm sure I'd be experiencing more aversion than I do now. But I know also that attachment and conceit will find their way to create concepts on which to feed. And if no level of understanding arises then, this does not change the fact that in reality there is just the experience through one of the five senses and the mind at a time. Best wishes regarding your wife. Metta, Sukin On 17-11-2011 16:00, Maipenrai Dhammasaro wrote: > > > Good friends all, > > So many good Thai friends and in-laws experienced since July, over > half of the Thai provinces (states) are/have been flooded!!! Many we > have not been able to contact!!! > > [Extract] > > I'd like to hear more about Rob K & Sukin's Marriott discussion too. > Can we not encourage Sukin to join in this discussion too, now he no > longer needs to pump water out of his house (the Thai equivalent of > shovelling snow)? > > [End extract] > > There is no equivalent "of shoveling snow" and having "flood water > from two feet in the first floor to water beginning to flood the > second floor"!!!! > > There is no equivalent "of shoveling snow" and seeing ones' home > floating away... > > What stupid dribble!!! > > What Buddhist ignorance!!! > > Wake up!!! > > Chuck > > > > > > #120491 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project moellerdieter Dear Ann, all, nice to meet you .. you wrote: 'I have very much appreciated the threads on ahiri and anotopa - very valuable. So, this is all unfolding just fine - please accept my encouragement to keep it up! D: thanks for your kind comment . My next topic will be restlessness (Uddhacca). I think , an issue of great actuality ;-) with Metta Dieter #120492 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:55 am Subject: [dsg] Re: 201 dhammas to be "directly known" truth_aerator Dear Sarah, >S:Thinking about concepts of the Dhamma and direct understanding of >realities are different. Satipatthana refers to the development of >the direct understanding of realities, not to any particular >activity. >======================================= Development of direct understanding is an intentional activity through the mind. >S:#120471 >Now, there can be direct understanding of the reality itself. You >mentioned that citta cannot know itself. However, it has its >particular characteristic which can be known immediately. >=================================================== Its particular characteristic is know about by the later cittas while this original citta whose characteristics are known, no longer exists. So the characteristics that one knows is of something that no longer is. How is it different from correctly thinking about it? One cannot examine the characteristics of the present momentary citta in the same moment. With best wishes, Alex #120493 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:05 am Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism truth_aerator Hi KenH, >K:"The ancient commentaries, for example, say that the Dhamma was >both >ultimately true *and* conventionally true. That means the >various >sentient beings and the activities we read about in the >suttas really >did happen that way. >=========================================== "I visited all quarters with my mind Nor found I any dearer than myself; Self is likewise to every other dear; Who loves himself will never harm another' (S.i,75; Ud. 47)". - VsM IX,10 11. "So he should first, as example, pervade himself with lovingkindness." 12. "...he should next, after that, develop lovingkindness towards a very dearly loved friend, then towards a neutral person as a very dearly loved friend, then towards a hostile person as neutral. And while he does so, he should make his mind malleable and wieldy in each instance before passing on to the next." - VsM IX So even VsM admits that conventional people do exist. With best wishes, Alex #120494 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Puggala pa~n~natti truth_aerator Dear Sarah, Nina, When, lets say, "lobha" cetasika arises, how do we know that it is lobha and not something else? With best wishes, Alex #120495 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:08 am Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism epsteinrob Hi Ken H. > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > The title of Scott's thread "Looks like Buddhism" makes me think of near enemies. If we think shovelling snow for our neighbour (acting like a Buddhist) is somehow better than shooting him, how are we ever going to have right understanding? That sort of thinking is a near enemy, isn't it? > > > > Satipatthana is for shooters and shovelers alike. What about kamma patha? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #120496 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:51 am Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism kenhowardau Hi Robert K, Sukin and all, Sorry to hear about your house, Sukin. I hope the thieves will stay away. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > Hi Scott and Kenh > Sukin has moved out of his flooded house and lives on my road now - in the better part of Bangkok-so we had breakfast at the Marriot this morning. > He sides with Kenh, after all, he says, dosa arises often hence why not of the level that sanctions shooting an irritating neighbour. After all we are not sotapanna. > ---------- KH: No matter how extreme the conventional situation might be the truth remains the same: there are only dhammas. Dhammas are not people; they don't suffer pain and they don't enjoy pleasure. They just roll on regardless. So you can't have it both ways! Don't tell me in one breath there are only dhammas and then, in the next breath, that shoveling snow is better (or worse) than shooting people. OK, I'll admit that stories will always be created for long as there are conditioned dhammas. But if I find myself in a story where I am a crazed gunman, is that any worse than if I find myself in a story where I am a the friendly neighborhood snow shoveler? No: there are always only dhammas - never any me or you or anyone to worry about or care for. Ken H #120497 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:17 pm Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism kenhowardau Hi Alex, I'm sorry; I forgot I was talking to everyone, not just to a few no-controllers. :-) ----------- >> KH:"The ancient commentaries, for example, say that the Dhamma was both ultimately true *and* conventionally true. That means the various sentient beings and the activities we read about in the suttas really did happen that way. >> > A: "I visited all quarters with my mind Nor found I any dearer than myself; <. . .>" > So even VsM admits that conventional people do exist. ------------ KH: It most certainly admits nothing of the kind! :-) When people say the Dhamma was conventionally true as well as ultimately true, they are not denying the fundamental difference between absolute truth and conventional truth. They are just saying the Dhamma does not lie. So if, for example, a sutta says someone was wearing a white hat, we can be sure it was white and not some other colour. But more importantly we have to know that ultimately there were only dhammas. And dhammas don't wear hats. I admit to having some strange theories about conventional truth in the Dhamma, but they are for another discussion another day – if at all! :-) Ken H #120498 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:41 pm Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism kenhowardau Hi Robert E, --- <. . .> > > KH: Satipatthana is for shooters and shovelers alike. >> > RE: What about kamma patha? --- KH: Exactly, what about it? Are you suggesting the Dhamma is only for saints? Would you tell a convicted criminal on death row, "Sorry, I can't discuss satipatthana with you"? It's only a matter of time before Angulimala's name gets dragged into this discussion. So what about him? Was satipatthana a suitable abode for Angulimala while he was trying to kill the Buddha? Ken H #120499 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:50 pm Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism kenhowardau Hi Sarah, ------- >> KH: > Who am I to argue? And yet I still have contrary theories. Most of which I manage to keep to myself. :-) ... > S: No need to not argue or hold back ;-) Let's hear them.... --------- KH: Thanks for asking. In an earlier message you asked about my theories on sakkaya ditthi, but I haven't replied yet, sorry. It is still in the `too hard' basket. As for the assertion that the Dhamma was conventionally true as well as ultimately true, I must admit I have a very loose definition of `conventionally true.' To take a silly, fictitious example, let's say the Buddha made some comments in passing about rainbows, and let's pretend he said rainbows were ladders used by devas for travelling to clouds where they lived. And – for good measure – they had pots of gold at the ends of them. If there was a sutta that said that, how should we understand it? Here are some possible ways that occur to me: (1) We could say rainbows really are ladders with pots of gold. (2) We could say the Buddha knew rainbows were actually refracted light, but he preferred to describe them in a way that was generally accepted in ancient times. Or (3) we could say rainbows, light refraction, ladders and pots of gold are all just concepts and all equally unreal. I like the third possibility. If a concept fits, wear it. If it doesn't fit, find another concept that does. It's only the dhammas that matter. Ken H PS: Thanks for asking about my mother. No improvement, I'm afraid. I will be down there again next week – and for the foreseeable future - talking it in turns with my sister. #120500 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:01 pm Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Robert E, > > --- > <. . .> > > > KH: Satipatthana is for shooters and shovelers alike. > >> > > > RE: What about kamma patha? > --- > > KH: Exactly, what about it? Are you suggesting the Dhamma is only for saints? Would you tell a convicted criminal on death row, "Sorry, I can't discuss satipatthana with you"? > > It's only a matter of time before Angulimala's name gets dragged into this discussion. So what about him? Was satipatthana a suitable abode for Angulimala while he was trying to kill the Buddha? Hm...we may be talking at cross-purposes. I agree that any dhamma, no matter how toxically akusala, is suitable object for satipatthana. I guess what I was saying that aside from being a suitable object of satipatthana, akusala dhammas have uncool consequences. Maybe this is beside your point, in which case - nevermind! :-) Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = #120501 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The camp thing... epsteinrob Hi Howard [and Phil.] --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Phil - > > In a message dated 11/16/2011 11:10:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > philco777@... writes: > > Thanks as always Sarah and Jon and Nina, and my apologies to all for any > unpleasant moments caused by my harsh comments. But to be perfectly honest I > would still like to see all "the suttas say so!" folk disappear > -------------------------------------------- > HCW: > Everybody, from each supposed "camp" points to the suttas to "make > their case". (Just like all the competing bible religionists love to quote > scripture to make their case!) Gosh, sometimes - most often not, though - a > smile comes to my face in thinking of John Lennon's "Imagine no religion". ;-) > ---------------------------------------------- > > and have no one but students of A.Sujin here. > --------------------------------------------- > HCW: > I suppose there is some charm to be found in insularity. It does have > its limitations, though. > ----------------------------------------------- > > That's not going to happen, and fair enough, so it is me who should > disappear. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Bye! > HCW: > So, if there is aversion to circumstances, in one way or another they > must change? What about the possibility of acceptance, nonresistance, and > benefiting from considering various perspectives? > ============================= 'Tis a consummation devoutly to be wished, but...not gonna happen. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - #120502 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:20 pm Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism epsteinrob Hi again, Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Ken H. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > Hi Robert E, > > > > --- > > <. . .> > > > > KH: Satipatthana is for shooters and shovelers alike. > > >> > > > > > RE: What about kamma patha? > > --- > > > > KH: Exactly, what about it? Are you suggesting the Dhamma is only for saints? Would you tell a convicted criminal on death row, "Sorry, I can't discuss satipatthana with you"? > > > > It's only a matter of time before Angulimala's name gets dragged into this discussion. So what about him? Was satipatthana a suitable abode for Angulimala while he was trying to kill the Buddha? > > Hm...we may be talking at cross-purposes. I agree that any dhamma, no matter how toxically akusala, is suitable object for satipatthana. I guess what I was saying that aside from being a suitable object of satipatthana, akusala dhammas have uncool consequences. Maybe this is beside your point, in which case - nevermind! :-) > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Just to be clear, looking at what you said: "If we think shoveling snow for our neighbour (acting like a Buddhist) is somehow better than shooting him, how are we ever going to have right understanding? That sort of thinking is a near enemy, isn't it?" I think this is partially true, and partially not correct. It is true in terms of satipatthana, but that does not mean that 'acting like a Buddhist' is not better than shooting someone. Kusala dhammas *are* better than akusala dhammas -- it is just that they are both suitable objects for satipatthana. We should still cultivate kusala and not cultivate or encourage akusala. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = #120503 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:53 am Subject: All are Chained Events! bhikkhu5 Friends: The Forward & Reverse Causality of Existence: So have I heard: After 7 days of non-stop sitting meditation in the bliss of Awakening, The Buddha in the last watch of the night directed his unified attention to dependent co-arising in both forward & reverse order in this very way: If A leads to => B, then non-A leads to => non-B! When this is present, then that comes into being... When this emerges, that arises too... When this is absent, then that does not come into being... When this ceases, that vanishes too... The forward causality: When ignorance arises, mental construction also appears.. When mental construction arises, consciousness also comes into being.. When consciousness arises, name-&-form also comes to be.. When name-&-form arises, then the six senses emerge too.. When the six senses arise, then contact is the consequence.. When contact arises, then feeling is assigned too.. When feeling arises, then urge and craving surely follows.. When craving arises, then clinging too becomes dominant.. When clinging arises, then the process of becoming is initiated.. When becoming arises, then rebirth inevitably also appears.. When rebirth arises, then aging and death, sorrow, distress, pain, grief and despair also arises. This verily is the origin, the causing, the arising of this entire mass of Suffering... The reverse causality: Consequently, when this very same ignorance is utterly uprooted & eliminated, then mental construction is tranquilized, all stilled, and it ceases & dissolves.. When mental construction ceases, then consciousness itself fades away.. When consciousness ceases, then naming-&-forming also terminate.. When name-&-form ceases, then the six senses come to an end.. When the six senses cease, then contact closes down as well.. When contact ceases, then feeling stops out too.. When feeling ceases, then craving also evaporates.. When craving ceases, then clinging is relinquished too.. When clinging ceases, then the re-becoming process essentially ends! When becoming ceases, then this process of endless rebirth is exhausted too.. When birth ceases, then aging, death, sorrow, sadness, and pain also finishes. This verily is the cessation, and the final end of this whole mass of Suffering...! Dispersing all Darkness... Then, he, the Blessed One, on recognizing the profundity of that sequence, exclaimed: When the appearance of phenomena becomes clearly manifest to this very Noble Friend through rapt meditation, then he is constantly s cattering Mara’s - the Evil One's - army, exactly as the sun continuously disperses all darkness, when lighting up the bright sky... <...> Source: The Udâna: Inspired utterances by the Buddha: I – 3 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=404214 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #120504 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:11 pm Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism sarahprocter... Hi Ken H (& Phil), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Ph: Cool. I like this concept. Starting with shared understanding... > --- > > KH: It can be traumatic. When I went to KK I learned that my right understanding was not so right after all. (!) > > I still haven't got over it. .... S: :-)) Very common! Isn't that the way it goes for us all - seeing more and more kilesa including wrong view? It's just maana which has a problem getting over it.....maana and more clinging to oneself! Metta Sarah ==== #120505 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:21 pm Subject: Re: Fw: view 'I have no self' is wrong view sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > the above topic (last posting Nov. 11) came back into my mind when I stumbled upon a part of Katha Vadhu in Nyanatiloka's 'Guide through the Abhidhamma Pitaka' ( see below ) which provides the logic for the Self or Personality controversy . > So whoever likes to start this topic again, should be expected to have contemplated the extract below .. ;-) .... S: thanks, yes I love the Katthavatthu debates and have quoted the ones on 'personality' from the text. I'm glad you're studying the "Guide" and interested to see it's on-line -- no need to type out in future! So "Ther: Are the visible things the personality? Is the personality something seen?" Just conditioned dhammas, just dhatus... Was there anything in particular you wished to discuss from Nyantiloka's summary? Metta Sarah ===== #120506 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Puggala pa~n~natti nilovg Dear Alex, Op 17-nov-2011, om 19:49 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > When, lets say, "lobha" cetasika arises, how do we know that it is > lobha and not something else? ------ N: We have learnt about the characteristic of lobha and when it has arisen we may notice it. It is different from just seeing what is visible, or different from dosa. Intellectual understanding is not as precise as direct understanding that is accompanied by sati. The latter kind is understanding of its characteristic when it appears and it knows it as only a dhamma. Whatever appears can be understood as only a dhamma, not a thing or a person. ------ Nina. #120507 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:53 pm Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > S: Sukkha is dukkha because it is impermanent and not worth clinging to. It is the clinging to one's pleasant feeling that brings all that grief you've been discussing with Scott and others. > > > D: we both agree on the Sukha -Dukkha relation due to change. One should be aware of that when the citta 'is coloured ' by sukkha. > However I don't understand still your conclusion about the point of grief (here: the death of a beloved one) in daily life . .... S: We think the great sadness, the grief is because of the loss of the beloved one. Actually, it's because of the great attachment to our own pleasant feelings. When we think about our loss, we have unpleasant feelings, grief and this leads to more unpleasant feelings as we no longer have the pleasant feelings on account of what is seen, heard, smelt and touched. We think we're so concerned about the others, about the beloved one we lost, but when there's sadness and grief, it shows it's just our own pleasant feeling we're so concerned about. This is why 'vedana' is a khandha by itself - we attach so much importance to our pleasant feelings all day long. It's also why dukkha dukkha is defined in terms of unpleasant feeling, viparinama dukkha in terms of pleasant feeling and sankhara dukkha in terms of neutral feeling. .... > The event is accompanied by unpleasant feeling .... ... S: Let's say the 'thinking about the event' is accompanied by unpleasant feeling. In an ultimate sense, the real problem is the akusala thinking at that (or this) moment, especially the ignorance. ... >...which triggers the urge (tanha) of rejection- not wanting to have , not being able to accept , i.e. dosa in broader meaning than hate. .... S: Yes, dosa conditioned by tanha - Sorrow, lamentation, mental pain, despair, association with the dislike, separation from the liked, not getting what one wants - dosa! (Not sure what you mean by the 'tanha of rejection'). .... >This urge is the condition for clinging , lasting as long as the mourning...... isn't it? .... S: The loss of our pleasant feelings, the clinging to our dreams, to our ideas about past experiences. The real problem is the present thinking with dosa. The only way is the present right understanding of the conditioned dhammas now, including the thinking as just thinking, not belonging to anyone. It takes a lot of courage to follow the path and be honest and truthful to the present realities, doesn't it? *** Dhp, Verse 212. "Piyato jaayatii soko, piyato jaayatii bhaya.m, Piyato vippamuttassa natthi soko kuto bhaya.m." "Affection begets sorrow, affection begets fear. For him who is free from affection there is no sorrow; how can there be fear for him?" **** As quoted before by Connie:'Old Age, book 4, Sn': "You dream and meet someone and when you wake they've gone. When someone you love dies it's just the same: I see you hear you call your name. You die and now there's just the name. Greedy people get stuck with sorrow, lamentation, meanness. The wise forget about owning things, wander about in peace." From: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/Sutta-nipataBM6.pdf **** Please let me know how this sounds. It's an important topic for everyone. Metta Sarah ==== #120508 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:05 pm Subject: Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" > S: Yes, they're all great similes. The pig that 'does not abhor dung' again refers to all kinds of akusala, not just those involved in "behavior that is thought to be morally or sexually offensive ". Now we're discussing dhammas, but as Phil has pointed out, there are kusala and akusala cittas arising in between the sense door processes. Is there any "abhoring" of the "dung"? > > D: well, the pig has a different concept of the dung . ;-) .... S: That's the point. Just as the pig enjoys the dung, so do we usually 'wallow' in our akusala cittas, not seeing the harm, due to a lack of panna, hiri and ottappa at such times. ... > For us the contact with the object dung triggers unpleasant feeling and so the urge of resentment (dosa) is conditioned ... ' insofar there is 'adhoring of the dung' .... S: Is there any abhoring of lobha, in the sense of seeing its harm, now? Seldom. ... > D: in daily life we encounter bad behaviours like ahirika and anottapppa by others ( not to talk vice versa) . > It is depending on the situation when it is/seems to be proper to mention it , i.e. being/remaining mindful without letting it infect one's thinking (cetasika) .... S: I think we're often very concerned with what we regard as others' bad behaviour instead of understanding our own unwholesome cittas at such times, like now when we think about the others. When we think of others without any metta, we can be sure its with akusala cittas. It's not a matter of "letting" or "not letting" anything occur or "infect one's thinking". These are all conditioned dhammas. Just develop understanding of what's conditioned now already! Never mind whether it's kusala or akusala - all kinds of dhammas have to be known when they arise. .... > D: Having been in Hong Kong briefly I remember my surprise about the fully occupied restaurants on Sunday mornings , there must be a real brunch culture... .... S: Yes, dim sum restaurants, western style...... Sunday mornings (or any free mornings) are for eating! .... > I thought it would be better to start with the problematic cetasikas , keeping the beautiful one's , the desert, for later. .... S: Sounds good.... By the time we've eaten all the "problematic" ones, we might find tthere's very little desert in our daily life - the problematic ones are so very prevalent after all! Metta Sarah ====== #120509 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:24 pm Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: >...(3) we could say rainbows, light refraction, ladders and pots of gold are all just concepts and all equally unreal. > > I like the third possibility. If a concept fits, wear it. If it doesn't fit, find another concept that does. > > It's only the dhammas that matter. .... S: Yes..... ... > PS: Thanks for asking about my mother. No improvement, I'm afraid. I will be down there again next week – and for the foreseeable future - talking it in turns with my sister.... .... S: it's good that you and your sister can do this. Only dhammas that matter - kusala cittas are dhammas too, so when there is assisting one's mother or shovelling for one's neighbours *with kusala cittas*, it is to be commended and encouraged. We all know that cittas change all the time, but this doesn't mean we don't assist and give when there are opportunities, does it? Talking of giving, I loved the story about the 'worry beads' your friends gave you! So suitable!! As Sukin just said, always something to worry about. Now, if there had been some appreciation of their kind thoughts and gift instead of concern about *Ken* and how no one understood you, there wouldn't have been that disappointment written all over your face, would there? Of course, in terms of samsara, all grist to the mill..... any dhammas whatsoever and all those past dhammas have gone completely, so it's only the present one appearing now that matters.... Metta Sarah p.s Sukin, great post - lovely to see you! ===== #120510 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:13 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Dribble Was: Looks like Buddhism dhammasaro Good friend Scott, On your question, "Have you never been in a three-day blizzard?" 1. Yes, several at Selfridge AFB, Michigan. 2. Yes, several times in the USA East Coast!!! Many times I traveled to/from Washington DC in such snow storms!!! I could not drive faster than thirty-five (35) MPH on the Interstate I-95!!! Both in my career job and as an active reserve officer New Jersey Army National Guard (NJARNG)... 3. As a NJARNG officer, driving on the Atlantic City (AC) Boardwalk with two AC police officers to insure no vandalism during the many northeasters and hurricanes!!! 4. None of the many snow blizzards compare to "water flooding"!!! In a snow blizzard, one may lose electricitry; however, one still has all the very beloved and precious Cherished Possessions; yes??? In a flood, no??? Hence, my minority experiences in "shoveling snow" does not compare to the multitude of flooding in the USA southern New Jersey and current flooding in Thailand since, since, since when??? Oh yes, way back in July!!! Way back in July, Thailand began flooding!!! Chuck ......... rest deleted ......................................... #120511 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:04 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] The camp thing... dhammasaro Good friends all, [Extract] > HCW: > So, if there is aversion to circumstances, in one way or another they > must change? What about the possibility of acceptance, nonresistance, and > benefiting from considering various perspectives? > ============================= 'Tis a consummation devoutly to be wished, but...not gonna happen. Best, Rob E. [End extract] - - - - - - - - - - 1. Imho, history does not agree on, "...not gonna happen." Throughout history, what HCW wrote has and continues to occur. 2. Do we not see such in the many Asian countries? What about Africa? What about the current USA Sec-of-State planned visit to Burma??? First time in over fifty (50) years!!! 3. Finally, me... from Roman Catholic Christianity to Theravada Buddhism... Further comments? peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck ............... rest deleted ................... #120512 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:23 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Dribble Was: Looks like Buddhism dhammasaro Good friend Sukin, et al 1. Sincere warm thanks on your kind words about my wife. I will leave shortly to be with her. 2. Flooding is very deleterious to one's psyche... 3. On what you wrote: [Extract] Although at the conventional level, my own situation is not bad as compared to that of your friends and relatives, I must say that I agree with the suggestion that pumping water and shoveling snow is essentially the same. [End extract] I am happy you are fortunate in your first part of your sentence. However, in a "conventional level" there is no comparison between "shoveling snow" and "pumping water" in one's business nor one's home. Water destroys one's properties... Snow does not!!! Snow remains outside!!! In very rare cases, it destroys; as in a heavy laden roof of wet snow, the roof caves in!!! 4. Now, at the Dhamma level, this ole bag of Texican bones does agree..... peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck ........... rest deleted ......................... #120513 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project moellerdieter Dear Sarah , you wrote: S: I think your way is fine and the emphasis on daily life examples works well. There's no hurry at all and anyone can follow any tangents or go into whatever detail they like. I think the threads on ahirika and anottappa which in the end almost all the regular posters have contributed to, have been very interesting and lively. Just continue as you feel inclined and those who disagree with this are also welcome. Just like being at a large family gathering - noisy at times, but opportunities to be aware anytime. In another message you wrote: "As I understand, DSG is a Theravada Buddhist list , which offers a forum for different schools within the scope of the Tipitaka. And as such ,Khun Sujin like any other Dhamma teacher or 'camp' , is subject to canonical examination . Isn't this correct?" ... S: Of course. K.Sujin is always the first person to say that it's not her teaching and that what's important is exploring and understanding the Buddha's Teachings. For this, every word has to be carefully examined, questioned and considered. Forget about all this "camp" and "follower" talk! D: thanks for making it very clear .. and may all members keep in mind that it is the Buddha Dhamma which makes the family ;-) with Metta Dieter #120514 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) moellerdieter Dear Nina, all, you wrote: D: I think there is consensus understanding on the importance of > understanding vipaka or old kamma and new kamma . > Although both are part of citta, new kamma is a choice conditioned > by cetasika, in particular by sankhara khanda. > There are kind of automatic habits , which we are usually not aware > of (lack of sati ) . > However the willed action here and now (new kamma.. vipaka in > future ) is the deed under our ' management' . > This 'management ' misses a personal core , instead constitutes > itself as a stream of interrelated / conditioned mental / material > phenomena/dhammas, but of cource not without (moral) responsibility > on our part ( 'us ' refers to the individual, but in principal > common D.O. process) > The quailty of 'management' is determined by the level of sati and > panna being in place.. > > I wonder how far you may agree with me ..... it isn't easy to find > a common language , is it? ------- N: Difficult. We try to chose words that can help people. You explain that this management is also conditioned and non-self. We understand this in theory. But when we hear the word management there is still a lingering idea of 'I can do it'. That is why I would prefer: beyond control, not possible to manipulate or direct dhammas. D: here we clearly disagree ..I claim there is indeed a management , i.e. the (delusioned ) will , although 'itself ' depending on conditions. I assume in D.O. ,sankhara khanda is the aggregate of choice, focus within the 6 senses media. comment/opinion from anybody else ? N: You say: but of course not without (moral) responsibility on our part ( 'us ' refers to the individual, but in principal common D.O. process). Beyond control does not mean acting in an irresponsible way. We often discussed this before. As you also say: sati and pa~n~naa. I find that dhammas arise and fall away so fast, before we realize it we give in to akusala. D: Often they effect mental clouds , which stay for a while and can be identified (e.g. as one of the 52 cetasikas) , otherwise how could anyone follow the Buddha's request :...The instructed disciple of the noble ones, [however,] attends carefully & appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising... (?) N:I accompanied Lodewijk to a lecture on the European Community. A young lady said to me: not sure there was a seat for me, but if someone else would not come, she gave me a chance. I had aversion, and conceit: how can she do this to me? I met an author on the subject who had known my late father who had done so much for the coming into being of the European community. I mentioned that I was his daughter. He reacted coolly, turned his back and walked away. Again conceit, aversion. Later on I realized with shame what happened. Shame: this was also with aversion. Not the wholesome hiri. The word shame can mislead us. D: well mana , self esteem or conceit , is only abolished at Arahant level (who 'reveal themselves as not being higher, equal or lower ') so you seem to be a bit tough with yourself ;-) When people are showing disrespect , ahirika and anottappa , it takes a bit not to be touched by that foolish behaviour. N:It is usually afterwards that we realize what happened. D: yes! N: Dhammas are so fast, they are beyond control. D: as I see that : it is growing insight and sati which keeps emotions within their limits , at best equanimity with Metta Dieter. #120515 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:24 am Subject: Re: Fw: view 'I have no self' is wrong view moellerdieter Dear Sarah, you wrote: S: thanks, yes I love the Katthavatthu debates and have quoted the ones on 'personality' from the text. I'm glad you're studying the "Guide" and interested to see it's on-line -- no need to type out in future! So "Ther: Are the visible things the personality? Is the personality something seen?" Just conditioned dhammas, just dhatus... Was there anything in particular you wished to discuss from Nyantiloka's summary? D: I could copy it .. sometimes better than mentioning the link , which makes the chance even less that the text is read. Not that I assume anybody did (I omitted the final conclusion of 'Ther'..) , but considering the logic point for point seems to me useful for one's (anatta) understanding I suppose there will be further issues of this guide interesting to quote.. with Metta Dieter #120516 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter (and Nina) - In a message dated 11/18/2011 12:02:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Dear Nina, all, you wrote: D: I think there is consensus understanding on the importance of > understanding vipaka or old kamma and new kamma . > Although both are part of citta, new kamma is a choice conditioned > by cetasika, in particular by sankhara khanda. > There are kind of automatic habits , which we are usually not aware > of (lack of sati ) . > However the willed action here and now (new kamma.. vipaka in > future ) is the deed under our ' management' . > This 'management ' misses a personal core , instead constitutes > itself as a stream of interrelated / conditioned mental / material > phenomena/dhammas, but of cource not without (moral) responsibility > on our part ( 'us ' refers to the individual, but in principal > common D.O. process) > The quailty of 'management' is determined by the level of sati and > panna being in place.. > > I wonder how far you may agree with me ..... it isn't easy to find > a common language , is it? ------- N: Difficult. We try to chose words that can help people. You explain that this management is also conditioned and non-self. We understand this in theory. But when we hear the word management there is still a lingering idea of 'I can do it'. That is why I would prefer: beyond control, not possible to manipulate or direct dhammas. D: here we clearly disagree ..I claim there is indeed a management , i.e. the (delusioned ) will , although 'itself ' depending on conditions. I assume in D.O. ,sankhara khanda is the aggregate of choice, focus within the 6 senses media. comment/opinion from anybody else --------------------------------------------------- HCW: A brief comment: Once a phenomenon has occurred, obviously it is too late to undo its occurrence! But there is "control" of what *will* occur in the following sense: What arises does so due entirely to conditions. Among the conditions for future phenomena are thinking, planning, willing, and arousal of energy/effort. All that, collectively, is what is meant by "control," and, of course, it does occur. --------------------------------------------------- N: You say: but of course not without (moral) responsibility on our part ( 'us ' refers to the individual, but in principal common D.O. process). Beyond control does not mean acting in an irresponsible way. We often discussed this before. As you also say: sati and pa~n~naa. I find that dhammas arise and fall away so fast, before we realize it we give in to akusala. --------------------------------------------------- HCW: But not always, especially not always for a mindfulness-trained mind. Guarding the senses, training the mind to distinguish wholesome from unwholesome, spotting the onset of an unwholesome state before it arises and avoiding its arising, spotting the onset of a wholesome state and encouraging its arising, noting the existence of a wholesome state and "feeding it," and noting the existence of a wholesome state and cutting it off - all this can be cultivated. Practice makes perfect. The Buddha said that this CAN be done. (But it takes much time and much effort, and perfecting this is a distant goal, though improvement can be ongoing,) -------------------------------------------------- D: Often they effect mental clouds , which stay for a while and can be identified (e.g. as one of the 52 cetasikas) , otherwise how could anyone follow the Buddha's request :...The instructed disciple of the noble ones, [however,] attends carefully & appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising... (?) N:I accompanied Lodewijk to a lecture on the European Community. A young lady said to me: not sure there was a seat for me, but if someone else would not come, she gave me a chance. I had aversion, and conceit: how can she do this to me? I met an author on the subject who had known my late father who had done so much for the coming into being of the European community. I mentioned that I was his daughter. He reacted coolly, turned his back and walked away. Again conceit, aversion. Later on I realized with shame what happened. Shame: this was also with aversion. Not the wholesome hiri. The word shame can mislead us. D: well mana , self esteem or conceit , is only abolished at Arahant level (who 'reveal themselves as not being higher, equal or lower ') so you seem to be a bit tough with yourself ;-) When people are showing disrespect , ahirika and anottappa , it takes a bit not to be touched by that foolish behaviour. N:It is usually afterwards that we realize what happened. D: yes! N: Dhammas are so fast, they are beyond control. ----------------------------------------------- HCW: Awareness of the current state is possible. The Buddha taught the 4 right efforts as actions that can occur. (Quoted material along these lines at the end) ------------------------------------------------ D: as I see that : it is growing insight and sati which keeps emotions within their limits , at best equanimity ---------------------------------------------- HCW: Certainly. ---------------------------------------------- with Metta Dieter. ============================ With metta, Howard "And what, monks, is right effort? [i] "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. [iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort." — _SN 45.8_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.008.than.html) ____________________________ "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it is possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'" — _AN 2.19_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.019.than.html) #120517 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:52 am Subject: Typo : [dsg] Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter & Nina - In a message dated 11/18/2011 1:46:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: noting the existence of a wholesome state and cutting it off ========================== I meant to write 'unwholesome' here. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #120518 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The camp thing... epsteinrob Hi Chuck. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Maipenrai Dhammasaro wrote: > > HCW: > > > > So, if there is aversion to circumstances, in one way or another they > > > > must change? What about the possibility of acceptance, nonresistance, and > > > > benefiting from considering various perspectives? > > > > ============================= > > 'Tis a consummation devoutly to be wished, but...not gonna happen. > - - - - - - - - - - > > 1. Imho, history does not agree on, "...not gonna happen." Throughout history, what HCW wrote has and continues to occur. > > 2. Do we not see such in the many Asian countries? What about Africa? What about the current USA Sec-of-State planned visit to Burma??? First time in over fifty (50) years!!! > > 3. Finally, me... from Roman Catholic Christianity to Theravada Buddhism... > > Further comments? I didn't mean that things weren't going to change in general. I was making a droll comment on the particular case Howard was talking about. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #120519 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:58 am Subject: Calm made Simple! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Special Experiences might cure illness instantly! Once when Venerable Girimananda was sick, the Buddha said to Ven. Ä€nanda. What is the experience of acute Awareness by in-&-out Breathing? It is when a Bhikkhu, who have gone to the forest, or to the root of a tree, or to an empty hut, sits down cross-legged, having straightened his body and back, and set up awareness around the nostrils, then just plain aware of only that itself, he breathes in, and then just solely aware of only that breathing in itself, he then breathes out... 1: Breathing in-&-out long, he knows, notes & understands: I in-&-exhale long! 2: Breathing in short, he knows, notes & understands: I in-&-exhale short! 3: He trains thus: Experiencing this entire body, I will breathe in-&out! 4: He trains thus: Calming all bodily activity, I will breathe in-&out! 5: He trains thus: Experiencing enraptured joy, I will breathe in-&out! 6: He trains thus: Experiencing a happy pleasure, I will breathe in-&out! 7: He trains thus: Experiencing all mental activity, I will breathe in-&out! 8: He trains thus: Calming all mental activity, I will breathe in-&out! 9: He trains thus: Experiencing the present mood, I will breathe in-&out! 10: He trains thus: Elating & gladdening the mind, I will breathe in-&out! 11: He trains thus: Concentrating & focusing mind, I will breathe in-&out! 12: He trains thus: Releasing, & liberating the mind, I will breathe in-&out! 13: He trains thus: Considering impermanence, I will breathe in-&out! 14: He trains thus: Considering disillusion, I will breathe in-&out! 15: He trains thus: Considering ceasing, I will breathe in-&out! 16: He trains thus: Considering relinquishment, I will breathe in-&out! Having learnt and memorized these 16 simple steps from the Blessed One, the Venerable Ä€nanda went to the Venerable Girimananda and recited these to him. Then as soon as Venerable Girimananda heard these 16 simple steps & the ten experiences his illness instantly subsided & he rose from his bed! This was thus the way Venerable Girimananda was cured from his sickness.... <.....> Source (edited extract): Numerical Discourses of the Buddha. Anguttara NikÄya AN 10:60, V 108ff. http://What-Buddha-Said.net/Canon/Sutta/AN/Index.Numerical.htm Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu SamÄhita _/\_ * <....> #120520 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:25 am Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism kenhowardau Hi Scott, ------ <. . .> >> KH: Who am I to argue? And yet I still have contrary theories. Most of which I manage to keep to myself..." >> > Scott: What theories? Are they like really evil or something? I've read the commentaries to use conventional speech but I've always thought that there was only one reality. Do you see it otherwise? ------- KH: No, but "only one reality" really does mean "only one reality." So why do the commentaries say the Dhamma is not only ultimately true but also conventionally true? Sorry I can't give the actual commentary quote, but I am sure I have seen it a few times at DSG. A conventional truth, I imagine, would be something like, "There are six apples in this basket," when there really are six apples in the basket, not five or seven. How can that be? If, as you and I agree, there are really only conditioned dhammas here - and no apples or baskets – how can there be a "true" difference between five and six apples? Ken H #120521 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:53 am Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism scottduncan2 Ken H., KH: "No, but 'only one reality' really does mean 'only one reality.' So why do the commentaries say the Dhamma is not only ultimately true but also conventionally true?...A conventional truth, I imagine, would be something like, 'There are six apples in this basket,' when there really are six apples in the basket, not five or seven. How can that be? If, as you and I agree, there are really only conditioned dhammas here - and no apples or baskets ? how can there be a "true" difference between five and six apples? Scott: What about the below? Kathavatthu "...The Buddhas have two kinds of discourse, the popular and the philosophical. Those relating to a being, a person, a deva, a brahma and so forth, are popular discourses, while those relating to impermanence,ill, soul-less, the aggregates, the elements, the senses, the application of mindfulness, the intent contemplation, and so forth, are discourses on highest meaning. Therein, in the popular discourse, when there is speech of a being, a person, a deva or a brahma, he who is able to understand, comprehend its meaning, or get out (of this world), or attain the victory of an arahan, HIM the Exalted One teaches, at the very outset, about a being, a person, a man, a deva or a brahma. He who, on hearing differently in discourse on highest meaning about impermanence, or ill, or the like, is able to understand, comprehend its meaning, or get out (of this world), or attain the victory of an arahan, him (the Exalted One) teaches differently about impermanence, and so forth. Thus, he does not teach at first the highest-meaning discourse to anyone, even to one who understands him in popular discourse. Taking his stand on popular discourse he, on the other hand, teaches the highest-meaning discourse afterwards. He does not teach at first popular discourse to one who can understand him in highest-meaning discourse. One the other hand, having enlightened him in highest-meaning discourse, he teaches him popular discourse afterwards. Highest-aim discourse is, as a rule, too severe to begin with; therefore the buddhas teach at first by popular discourse, and then the highest-meaning discourse. But popular discourse they teach consistently and in conformity with truth according to the method selected. And highest-meaning discourse, too. They teach consistently and in conformity with truth according to the method selected. Thus it is said: The Enlightened One, best of speakers, spoke two kinds of truth, namely, the popular and that of highest meaning, a third is not got at (i.e known). Therein, discourse meeting with agreement is true and is by way of world convention. Highest meaning discourse expression is also true and, as such, characteristic of things (as they are). There is another way of putting it. The teaching of the Exalted One is of two kinds, the highest-meaning teaching consisting of the aggregates, and so forth, and the popular taching consisting of butter-jar, and so forth. The Exalted One does not, indeed, overrun consistency. Hence, on the mere expression there is the person who, must not command adherence. The highest meaning has been declared by the Teacher, without transgressing the concept. So another wise man also should not, in explaining the highest meaning, overrun a concept..." Scott: There are six apples in a story about six apples but apple is visible object or gustatory object or tangible object or mind-object (concept) in reality or something ultimate, right. I guess I see it like you. Could you find that text you were thinking of? Scott. #120522 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:19 am Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism kenhowardau Hi Robert E, ------- > RE: Just to be clear, looking at what you said: > "If we think shovelling snow for our neighbour (acting like a Buddhist) is somehow better than shooting him, how are we ever going to have right understanding? That sort of thinking is a near enemy, isn't it?" > I think this is partially true, and partially not correct. It is true in terms of satipatthana, but that does not mean that 'acting like a Buddhist' is not better than shooting someone. Kusala dhammas *are* better than akusala dhammas -- it is just that they are both suitable objects for satipatthana. We should still cultivate kusala and not cultivate or encourage akusala. ------- KH: First of all there is a point that you and I seem to agree on to some extent: If someone is a violent criminal how should he reflect? Should he think, "I want to be a better person"? Or should he have right understanding of conditioned reality (satipatthana)? We agree to some extent that it is the latter. But what is the difference between being a violent criminal and being a good guy? Aren't there always only dhammas? And aren't dhammas indifferent to what they are doing? Don't they just disinterestedly arise, function and cease? Since there really are only dhammas, what's the big deal about being (in our illusory world) a good or a bad person? Why should we care? Ken H #120523 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:48 am Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Robert E, > > ------- > > RE: Just to be clear, looking at what you said: > > > "If we think shovelling snow for our neighbour (acting like a Buddhist) > is somehow better than shooting him, how are we ever going to have right > understanding? That sort of thinking is a near enemy, isn't it?" > > > I think this is partially true, and partially not correct. It is true in terms > of satipatthana, but that does not mean that 'acting like a Buddhist' is not > better than shooting someone. Kusala dhammas *are* better than akusala dhammas > -- it is just that they are both suitable objects for satipatthana. We should > still cultivate kusala and not cultivate or encourage akusala. > ------- > > KH: First of all there is a point that you and I seem to agree on to some extent: If someone is a violent criminal how should he reflect? Should he think, "I want to be a better person"? Or should he have right understanding of conditioned reality (satipatthana)? > > We agree to some extent that it is the latter. But what is the difference between being a violent criminal and being a good guy? Aren't there always only dhammas? And aren't dhammas indifferent to what they are doing? Don't they just disinterestedly arise, function and cease? > > Since there really are only dhammas, what's the big deal about being (in our illusory world) a good or a bad person? Why should we care? Well, that's where our views diverge, and where I am sometimes at odds with some folks on the list. I think that ultimately the direct understanding of the nature of arising dhammas is what liberates the mind and ends the cycle of samsara. But I also think that Buddha taught the conventional aspect of the path of being a good person and that this causes kusala to arise. Buddha said not to murder and to refrain from various akusala actions. Of course the mental factors that arise with actions is important, but the actions are important too. I don't believe that "all dhammas are equal." I think that Buddha taught to cultivate kusala, in addition to regarding all dhammas with detachment and discernment. If the Dhamma becomes an excuse for feeling okay about doing bad things, in my view it is being abused. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #120524 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:58 pm Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "Well, that's where our views diverge, and where I am sometimes at odds with some folks on the list. I think that ultimately the direct understanding of the nature of arising dhammas is what liberates the mind and ends the cycle of samsara. But I also think that Buddha taught the conventional aspect of the path of being a good person and that this causes kusala to arise. Buddha said not to murder and to refrain from various akusala actions. Of course the mental factors that arise with actions is important, but the actions are important too. I don't believe that 'all dhammas are equal.' I think that Buddha taught to cultivate kusala, in addition to regarding all dhammas with detachment and discernment..." Scott: Here is where the morality expressed is decidedly not Dhamma, but merely some sort of re-worked Judeo-Christian thing. 'God' said 'Thou shalt not kill.' This is not Dhamma. I'd stop thinking so much about 'actions' if I were you because these are not the point. The reason that shoveling snow and not murder occurred had nothing to do with me or with the 10 commandments or anything. The dhammas that kill simply did not arise. Other one's did. That's it. I'm not saying that the example I gave is one a kusala - I don't think it was. It wasn't killing though. These dhammas simply did not arise. To put it in perspective, think of all the killing that goes on in the world every day. Scott. #120525 From: "connie" Date: Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:30 pm Subject: Looks like CDL, too nichiconn Scott, a bit of a complimentary quote to yours... since we're sharing a branch. connie Masefield. Cy to Itivuttaka. The Pile of Bones Sutta (vol.1 pp207-216) ...skip, skip, skip... << Two truths did the Self-Enlightened One, best of speakers, proclaim: that in conventional usage and that in the highest sense, no third being discovered. That utterance upon which there is agreement is true by reason of the world's conventional usage, that utterance involving the highest sense being true in that its characteristic is that of being accordant with such dhammas. Therefore, when the Teacher, the Saviour of the World, who is skilled in modes of speech, utilises the mode of speech that is conventional usage, that mode of speech is itself ariyan. And, moreoever, the Lord talks "individual-talk" for eight reasons: (i) for the sake of elucidating a sense of shame and a fear of reproach; (ii) for the sake of elucidating the fact that one's deeds are one's own; (iii) for the sake of eluciating [sic] individual human agency; (iv) for the sake of elucidating immediacy [of karmic result]; (v) for the sake of elucidating the Brahmavihaaras; (vi) for the sake of elucidating former dwelling; (vii) for the sake of elucidating the purification of a donation; and (viii) for the sake of not abandoning the world's conventional usage. (i) For when "The khandhas, elements and bases experience shame, experience a fear of reproach" is said, people do not understand, they enter upon confusion, or else they become argumentative, saying: "How can it be said that the khandhas, elements and bases experience shame, experience a fear of reproach?" But when "A woman experiences shame, experiences a fear or reproach ... a man ... a ksatriya ... a brahmin [experiences shame, experiences a fear of reproach]" is said, they understand, they do not enter upon confusion, nor do they become argumentative. Therefore, the Lord talks "individual-talk" for the sake of elucidating a sense of shame and a fear of reproach. (ii) This same is the method also when "The khandhas ... elements ... bases are those for whom their deeds are their own" is said. Therefore, the Lord talks "individual-talk" also for the sake of elucidating the fact that one's deeds are one's own. < .... snip .... > (viii) the Lord Buddhas do not abandon the world's conventional usage, they teach Dhamma abiding solely by how something is correctly known in the [outside] world, by the language used in the [outside] world, by those expressions used in the [outside] world. Therefore, the Lord talks "individual-talk" also for the sake of not abandoning the world's conventional usage. It was in indicating a matter that was to be taught by way of the world's mode of speech that he said "Of a single individual" and so on in the present case too. ===== #120526 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:16 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] dhammasaro Good friend Howard, ................................................................................\ ................................................................. On what you wrote: I'm so sorry about this! I pray that all will be well for your partner and you. With metta, Howard ................................................................................\ ................................................................. Very sincere thanks. She still is in the hospital. They finally let her eat. She still has some bleeding from the rectum. Again, since thanks. yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck ........... rest deleted ......................... #120527 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:23 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] The camp thing... dhammasaro Good friend Rob E, Thanks for the clarification... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck ............ rest deleted ........................ #120528 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:58 pm Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., > > R: "Well, that's where our views diverge, and where I am sometimes at odds with some folks on the list. I think that ultimately the direct understanding of the nature of arising dhammas is what liberates the mind and ends the cycle of samsara. But I also think that Buddha taught the conventional aspect of the path of being a good person and that this causes kusala to arise. Buddha said not to murder and to refrain from various akusala actions. Of course the mental factors that arise with actions is important, but the actions are important too. I don't believe that 'all dhammas are equal.' I think that Buddha taught to cultivate kusala, in addition to regarding all dhammas with detachment and discernment..." > > Scott: Here is where the morality expressed is decidedly not Dhamma, but merely some sort of re-worked Judeo-Christian thing. 'God' said 'Thou shalt not kill.' This is not Dhamma. I'd stop thinking so much about 'actions' if I were you because these are not the point. > > The reason that shoveling snow and not murder occurred had nothing to do with me or with the 10 commandments or anything. The dhammas that kill simply did not arise. Other one's did. That's it. I'm not saying that the example I gave is one a kusala - I don't think it was. It wasn't killing though. These dhammas simply did not arise. To put it in perspective, think of all the killing that goes on in the world every day. Well it's a real point of disagreement. Buddha directly promotes kusala all the time. He doesn't teach that kusala and akusala are equal in value in any way, shape or form, so you are ignoring the conventional teaching and dismissing it, but to do so is not what the Buddha taught. The idea that *all* the Buddha taught was paramatha dhammas is simply wrong. The suttas are filled with his teachings that you call 'merely reworked Judeo-Christian" and not Dhamma. So you pick out the pages and pages of the record of Buddha's teaching on Right Action, Right Speech, etc. and say it's not that, it's just more dhammas, and who cares? It's not what the Buddha taught. I don't think you can develop the kusala needed for awakening and understanding paramatha dhammas without cultivating kusala in daily existence. The idea that ordinary life is merely conceptual and so doesn't matter for the path is just wrong. "And how is one made pure in three ways by bodily action? There is the case where a certain person, abandoning the taking of life, abstains from the taking of life. He dwells with his rod laid down, his knife laid down, scrupulous, merciful, compassionate for the welfare of all living beings. Abandoning the taking of what is not given, he abstains from taking what is not given. He does not take, in the manner of a thief, things in a village or a wilderness that belong to others and have not been given by them. Abandoning sensual misconduct, he abstains from sensual misconduct. He does not get sexually involved with those who are protected by their mothers, their fathers, their brothers, their sisters, their relatives, or their Dhamma; those with husbands, those who entail punishments, or even those crowned with flowers by another man. This is how one is made pure in three ways by bodily action." — AN X 176 Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #120529 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sat Nov 19, 2011 6:17 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The "Cetasikas in Daily Life" Project dhammasaro Good friends all, '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' D: thanks for making it very clear .. and may all members keep in mind that it is the Buddha Dhamma which makes the family ;-) ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''\ ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''\ ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''\ '''''''''''''''''' Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck .......... rest deleted .............................. #120530 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Nov 19, 2011 6:54 pm Subject: Re: Looks like CDL, too kenhowardau Hi Connie and Scott, Very nice quoting by both of you, thanks. Now please tell me what it means. I think we all know what the truth in the highest sense is, but is the truth in the conventional sense (A), the same as the truth in the highest sense but expressed in conventional terminology (B), just ordinary truths such as "I cut down the cherry tree" (C) both of those or (D), something else altogether? Sorry for being dense. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Scott, > a bit of a complimentary quote to yours... since we're sharing a branch. > connie > > > Masefield. Cy to Itivuttaka. The Pile of Bones Sutta (vol.1 pp207-216) ...skip, skip, skip... > << > Two truths did the Self-Enlightened One, best of speakers, proclaim: that in conventional usage and that in the highest sense, no third being discovered. <. . .> #120531 From: "charlest" Date: Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:32 pm Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism dhammasaro Good friend Scott, et al You wrote in part: ................................... This morning, after a busy weekend and an unending dog-bowel, the neighbour placed a piece of my dog's feces on my front steps. I had failed, for once, to pick it up. So sue me. I come home after a long day at work to find this passive-aggressive missive on my front porch steps. Dog s***. Needless to say, Dhamma aside, I thought ill of this narrow-minded, self-centred, not-minding-his-own-business, petty s.o.b. of a neighbour. .................................. May I share a somewhat similar experience? Observing no objection... I shall continue... [beeg Texican smiles] 1. Before retiring, I was a volunteer civil court meditation person for the Atlantic and Cape May counties in New Jersey. 2. On a residential property which I rented with a business associate; she observed a neighbor's dog defecating. Our former tenants also had complained!!! She took the defecation and returned it to the neighbor's front porch!!! [I can imagine how!!!] We were summoned with some civil action... she was guilty... the judge suggested "mediation." Agreed!!! To today, I feel sorry for the mediator... I dragged the mediation process almost four hours as I well knew the mediation process... The final agreement: The dog would always be under control by an adult, the adult would have both shovel and bag, retrieve all doggie deposits anywhere within the town, only twice a day, between 8 AM & 6 PM. Why did we win? Clearly, my associate broke the law!!! Do not understate the power to negotiate... a. Know the law - as in the vinaya-pitaka. b. Be polite - as taught by the Historic Buddha. c. Be positive - as taught by the Historic Buddha. Never a problem since... they later had a swimming pool leaking problem and had weaken the wooden fence... it was their fence... they left a note... I personally visited them and told them to take their time in repairing. Their pool water was keeping most of our tenant's back yard grass green!!! [verily beeg Texican grins] peace my friend... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck ............ rest deleted ............................ #120533 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:44 pm Subject: Re: Looks like CDL, too moellerdieter Hi Connie, all, thanks for good quoting .. "Two truths did the Self-Enlightened One, best of speakers, proclaim: that in conventional usage and that in the highest sense, no third being discovered..." That utterance upon which there is agreement is true by reason of the world's conventional usage, that utterance involving the highest sense being true in that its characteristic is that of being accordant with such dhammas. Therefore, when the Teacher, the Saviour of the World, who is skilled in modes of speech, utilises the mode of speech that is conventional usage, that mode of speech is itself ariyan. And, moreoever, the Lord talks "individual-talk" for eight reasons: (i) for the sake of elucidating a sense of shame and a fear of reproach; (ii) for the sake of elucidating the fact that one's deeds are one's own; (iii) for the sake of eluciating [sic] individual human agency; (iv) for the sake of elucidating immediacy [of karmic result]; (v) for the sake of elucidating the Brahmavihaaras; (vi) for the sake of elucidating former dwelling; (vii) for the sake of elucidating the purification of a donation; and (viii) for the sake of not abandoning the world's conventional usage. "snip D: In this respect MN 117 it is of benefit to recall as well : "Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view. And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view. "And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with effluents [asava], siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right view, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path. "And what is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions. "And what is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, the path factor of right view of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path... " snip I like to repeat Ven. Nyanatiloka's advise , so that the ground may not fall out from underneath one's feet: "Before entering into the discussion of the contents of the seven Abhidhamma books, I wish to point out that the study of the Abhidhamma requires a previous thorough acquaintance with the fundamental teachings and ethical aims of Buddhism; and it is only to those who have fulfilled this preliminary condition that, by thus recapitulating their learning and by philosophically deepening their insight, the Abhidhamma may prove to be of real benefit. ( http://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/Guide-through-the-Abhidhamma-Pitaka.\ pdf )" with Metta Dieter #120534 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:39 am Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "...Buddha directly promotes kusala all the time. He doesn't teach that kusala and akusala are equal in value in any way, shape or form...The idea that *all* the Buddha taught was paramatha dhammas is simply wrong..." Scott: Yes, Rob, the Buddha 'promotes' kusala. No, kusala and akusala differ - who knows where you are getting this. Whether spoken of conventionally or not, kusala or akusala dhammaa are paramattha. R: "...The suttas are filled with his teachings that you call 'merely reworked Judeo-Christian' and not Dhamma..." Scott: I note that *your take on the Dhamma* is merely a re-worked version of the Judeo-Christian ethic. R: "...I don't think you can develop the kusala needed for awakening and understanding paramatha dhammas without cultivating kusala in daily existence. The idea that ordinary life is merely conceptual and so doesn't matter for the path is just wrong." Scott: The conventional story of the snow shoveling that wasn't a shooting refers only to dhammas. I'm not suggesting that there was much kusala, right, but let's say there was, the 'cultivating' would be in the mere arising of kusala and the arising of kusala itself was the foil to the arising of akusala. You get distracted by the convention, by the story. R: "'AN X 176 - And how is one made pure in three ways by bodily action? There is the case where a certain person, abandoning the taking of life, abstains from the taking of life...Abandoning the taking of what is not given, he abstains from taking what is not given...Abandoning sensual misconduct, he abstains from sensual misconduct...This is how one is made pure in three ways by bodily action." Scott: The 'abandoning' and 'abstaining' are functions of kusala dhammaa in ascendance. The mere presence of kusala *is* cultivation. The mere presence of kusala *is* abandoning. The mere presence of kusala *is* abstaining. The so-called 'bodily action' is the epiphenomenon of the arising of kusala. Some people like to think about people abstaining and abandoning but this isn't the case. It's a distraction. Scott. #120535 From: "connie" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:49 am Subject: Re: Looks like CDL, too nichiconn dear Ken, > > I think we all know what the truth in the highest sense is, but is the truth in the conventional sense (A), the same as the truth in the highest sense but expressed in conventional terminology (B), just ordinary truths such as "I cut down the cherry tree" (C) both of those or (D), something else altogether? > Are those all the choices I get? One aspect of conventional truth means "majority rules" - I can still try to swing everyone to my point of view but how far can does a point of agreement stretch before morphing into a skirmish line that snaps back? Conventional rules means that "morality rules" are shifty; actually, that there's nothing absolutely true & Cliche wonders who calls it a blackberry when it's red when it's still green. And before I forget to be disagreeable: none of "us" know truth in the highest sense. Aren't we confused about it conventionally as well? That dogged duty aside, I'd like to say "something nice" to you about "being a good son" and all, but we both know it's kamma that's your mama... carry on, connie #120536 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:50 am Subject: Re: Looks like CDL, too scottduncan2 Ken H., K: "...I think we all know what the truth in the highest sense is, but is the truth in the conventional sense (A), the same as the truth in the highest sense but expressed in conventional terminology (B), just ordinary truths such as 'I cut down the cherry tree' (C) both of those or (D), something else altogether?" Scott: Do you refer to that american myth about their first king, George Washington? And how he was truthful? It's not 'truth' like 'tell the truth.' There would be some kusala dhamma that arose to block the arising of akusala, hence the story of the 'telling the truth.' I choose 'A.' Scott. #120537 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 18-nov-2011, om 18:02 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > N: But when we hear the word management there is still a lingering > idea of 'I can do it'. That is why I would prefer: beyond > control, not possible to manipulate or direct dhammas. > > D: here we clearly disagree ..I claim there is indeed a > management , i.e. the (delusioned ) will , although 'itself ' > depending on conditions. > I assume in D.O. ,sankhara khanda is the aggregate of choice, focus > within the 6 senses media. -------- N: In the D.O. sankhaara is used, or abhisankhaara. I requote a message by Rob Moult: RobM clarified: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17137 >The definition of "sankhara" in Nyanatiloka's "Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines" starts, "This term has, according to its context, different shades of meaning, which should be carefully distinguished...." It then proceeds to give multiple definitions. You are probably familiar with the term "sankhara" as applied as one of the five aggregates. In this case, it means all of the cetasikas minus feeling and perception. The definition of "sankhara" when used as part of dependent origination is quite different. In dependent origination, "sankhara" is the 29 rebirth-producing cetana which fall into three classes: - Formations of merit (punnabhisankhara): cetana in the 8 maha kusala cittas [Sarah: 4 with wisdom, 4 without, prompted and unprompted, with pleasant feeling and indifferent feeling] and cetana in the 5 rupavacara cittas - Formations of demerit (apunnabhisankhara): cetana in the 12 akusala cittas [Sarah: the 8 cittas rooted in lobha, 2 in dosa and 2 in moha] - Formations of the imperturbable (anenjabhisankhara): cetana in the 4 arupavacara cittas In short, sankhara represents the 29 types of kamma (kamma = cetana) associated with the 17 lokiya kusala cittas and the 12 akusala cittas. Just as sankhara has a unique definition when used as part of dependent origination, so too does consciousness (vinnana) have a unique definition when used as part of dependent origination. As part of dependent orgination, consciousness means the 32 lokiya vipaka cittas. (end quote). ---------- > > D: well mana , self esteem or conceit , is only abolished at > Arahant level (who 'reveal themselves as not being higher, equal or > lower ') > so you seem to be a bit tough with yourself ;-) > When people are showing disrespect , ahirika and anottappa , it > takes a bit not to be touched by that foolish behaviour. > > N:It is usually afterwards that we realize what happened. > > D: yes! > > N: Dhammas are so fast, they are beyond control. > > D: as I see that : it is growing insight and sati which keeps > emotions within their limits , at best equanimity ------- N: The first aim is to understand akusala as only a dhamma, not trying to change it. This is the task of pa~n~naa that is to be developed. -------- Nina. > > #120538 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:14 am Subject: Cetasikas study corner, restlessness. nilovg Dear friends, some quotes from Vis. Ch XIV, 93 and Tiika: As to restlessness or agitation, this is a translation of uddhacca. Uddhacca is not what we mean by the conventional term agitation, or excitement. Restlessness arises with each akusala citta and at that moment there is forgetfulness of kusala, there is not the steadiness and calm of kusala. Since akusala cittas arise more often than kusala cittas, there is restlessness time and again. The Tiika of Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 93, describes udhacca as lack of calm or distraction (vikkhepo). ******* Text Vis.: (xlii) 'Agitation' is agitatedness. ---------- Text Vis.: It has the characteristic of disquiet, like water whipped by the wind. -------- N: The Tiika uses here the terms disquiet and impure, appasannabhaava. Akusala citta that is always accompanied by agitation is not pure. ----------- Text Vis.: Its function is unsteadiness, like a flag or banner whipped by the wind. ---------- N: The Tiika explains that it has the function of shaking (calana). This is a term describing the unsteadfastness of uddhacca. --------- Text Vis.: It is manifested as turmoil, like ashes flung by pelting with stones. --------- N: Turmoil or disquiet (bhantatta) is explained by the Tiika as: in the way of reeling about. -------- Text Vis.: Its proximate cause is unwise attention to mental disquiet. It should be regarded as distraction of consciousness. -------- N: Unwise attention (ayoniso manaasikaara) is the proximate cause of all kinds of akusala. The Tiika adds to mental disquiet (avuupasama) that the object (that is experienced) has become the condition for disquiet. When akusala citta arises it experiences an object in the unwholesome way. At that moment there is ignorance that does not know the true nature of that object and uddhacca which is restless or agitated about that object. ------- Conclusion: The citta and accompanying cetasikas are conditioned by uddhacca, they are all restless and distracted, forgetful of kusala. It is often said with regard to a cetasika that this dhamma itself is of such or such quality, and that it also makes the accompanying dhammas in that way. Citta and cetasikas that arise together condition one another. When akusala citta arises it is accompanied by akusala cetasikas, and these support it in the unwholesome way. The citta lacks the support of the sobhana cetasikas such as confidence, calm, wieldiness and balance, it cannot apply itself to daana, siila, samatha or vipassanaa. The strong similes that are used for the explanation of the nature of uddhacca remind us of its danger. As we have seen, it is as unsteady as water or a flag whipped by the wind, like ashes flung by pelting with stones. It is turmoil in the way of reeling about. Restlessness forms a pair with kukkuccha, worry, and it is one of the five hindrances. Restlessness arises innumerable times a day, but we do not notice it. It arises with cittas rooted in lobha, with cittas rooted in dosa and cittas which have moha as their only root. When one feels calm there may be subtle clinging to calm, and then there is uddhacca, agitation. There can be agitation with indifferent feeling. Akusala citta may be accompanied by indifferent feeling, and at that moment there is also uddhacca. Ignorance always arises together with uddhacca and it darkens its true nature. Only the arahat has eradicated uddhacca. ***** Nina. #120539 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:17 am Subject: Re: Looks like CDL, too scottduncan2 Dieter, D: "...I like to repeat Ven. Nyanatiloka's advise, so that the ground may not fall out from underneath one's feet: 'Before entering into the discussion of the contents of the seven Abhidhamma books, I wish to point out that the study of the Abhidhamma requires a previous thorough acquaintance with the fundamental teachings and ethical aims of Buddhism; and it is only to those who have fulfilled this preliminary condition that, by thus recapitulating their learning and by philosophically deepening their insight, the Abhidhamma may prove to be of real benefit...'" Scott: Why don't we discuss it anyway, since the above caveat, apart from being Highly Superstitious, would rule everyone out of the discussion... Scott. #120540 From: "connie" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:22 am Subject: Re: Looks like CDL, too nichiconn dear Dieter, I suppose most of us figure we've got a pretty "thorough acquaintance" with the conventional side of things & hope, at best, for moments of "right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]". That leaves us in the awkward position of sitting with our own opinions and standing uncomfortably on clumsy attempts at sharing them. All I'm trying to say is "thorough acquaintance" always strikes me as an oxymoron, connie #120541 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:31 am Subject: Re: Off-topic: On Knowing the Vinaya-pitaka scottduncan2 Chuck, C: "...Discussion?" Scott: Good story. Moral of the story: Never have a dog if you can help it; don't shoot the dog if you do have one; and place it's bottom in doggy-diapers at all times. Scott. #120542 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:37 am Subject: Re: Looks like CDL, too moellerdieter Hi Scott, you wrote: 'Dieter, D: "...I like to repeat Ven. Nyanatiloka's advise, so that the ground may not fall out from underneath one's feet: 'Before entering into the discussion of the contents of the seven Abhidhamma books, I wish to point out that the study of the Abhidhamma requires a previous thorough acquaintance with the fundamental teachings and ethical aims of Buddhism; and it is only to those who have fulfilled this preliminary condition that, by thus recapitulating their learning and by philosophically deepening their insight, the Abhidhamma may prove to be of real benefit...'" Scott: Why don't we discuss it anyway, since the above caveat, apart from being Highly Superstitious, would rule everyone out of the discussion... D: please explain why 'Highly Superstitous ' ? In other words ,the Ven. says, 'conventional ' teaching first before 'higher' teaching , like multiplication table first .. before calculus The fundamental teachings we find in the Sutta (-Vinaya) Pitaka (not excl. 'higher' teaching there as well) , which he emphasizes ,one should be thoroughly aquainted with . It is my most unhumble opinion to be fair aquainted with the fundamentals and would give similar credit to quite a number of members. Are you not judging others by your own standard when you state ' ( the caveat) , would rule everyone out of the discussion...' with Metta Dieter #120543 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:59 am Subject: Re: Looks like CDL, too moellerdieter Dear Connie, you wrote: 'I suppose most of us figure we've got a pretty "thorough acquaintance" with the conventional side of things & hope, at best, for moments of "right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]". D: wrote just the same before I read you post ;-) C: That leaves us in the awkward position of sitting with our own opinions and standing uncomfortably on clumsy attempts at sharing them. All I'm trying to say is "thorough acquaintance" always strikes me as an oxymoron,' D: well , it is usually done with good intention and often is not clear whether 'clumsy' may relate to the writer or the reader . Difficult to find consensus understanding ... I still hope , the 'Cetasika in daily life ' project serves as a kind of approach .. with Metta Dieter AdChoices #120544 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:21 am Subject: Re: Cetasikas study corner, restlessness. szmicio Dear Nina, Is uddhacca the opposite of sati? uddhacca seems to be not steady, forgetful of object when sati is non-forgetful, does not run way from its object. Best wishes Lukas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > > some quotes from Vis. Ch XIV, 93 and Tiika: > > As to restlessness or agitation, this is a translation of uddhacca. > Uddhacca is not what we mean by the conventional term agitation, or > excitement. Restlessness arises with each akusala citta and at that > moment there is forgetfulness of kusala, there is not the steadiness > and calm of kusala. Since akusala cittas arise more often than kusala > cittas, there is restlessness time and again. > The Tiika of Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 93, describes udhacca as lack of > calm or distraction (vikkhepo). > > ******* > Text Vis.: (xlii) 'Agitation' is agitatedness. > ---------- > Text Vis.: It has the characteristic of disquiet, like water whipped > by the wind. > -------- > N: The Tiika uses here the terms disquiet and impure, > appasannabhaava. Akusala citta that is always accompanied by > agitation is not pure. > ----------- > Text Vis.: Its function is unsteadiness, like a flag or banner > whipped by the wind. > ---------- > N: The Tiika explains that it has the function of shaking (calana). > This is a term describing the unsteadfastness of uddhacca. > --------- > Text Vis.: It is manifested as turmoil, like ashes flung by pelting > with stones. > --------- > N: Turmoil or disquiet (bhantatta) is explained by the Tiika as: in > the way of reeling about. > -------- > Text Vis.: > Its proximate cause is unwise attention to mental disquiet. It should > be regarded as distraction of consciousness. > -------- > N: Unwise attention (ayoniso manaasikaara) is the proximate cause of > all kinds of akusala. > The Tiika adds to mental disquiet (avuupasama) that the object (that > is experienced) has become the condition for disquiet. > When akusala citta arises it experiences an object in the unwholesome > way. At that moment there is ignorance that does not know the true > nature of that object and uddhacca which is restless or agitated > about that object. > ------- > Conclusion: > > The citta and accompanying cetasikas are conditioned by uddhacca, > they are all restless and distracted, forgetful of kusala. > It is often said with regard to a cetasika that this dhamma itself > is of such or such quality, and that it also makes the accompanying > dhammas in that way. Citta and cetasikas that arise together > condition one another. When akusala citta arises it is accompanied by > akusala cetasikas, and these support it in the unwholesome way. The > citta lacks the support of the sobhana cetasikas such as confidence, > calm, wieldiness and balance, it cannot apply itself to daana, siila, > samatha or vipassanaa. > The strong similes that are used for the explanation of the nature of > uddhacca remind us of its danger. As we have seen, it is as unsteady > as water or a flag whipped by the wind, like ashes flung by pelting > with stones. It is turmoil in the way of reeling about. > Restlessness forms a pair with kukkuccha, worry, and it is one of the > five hindrances. > Restlessness arises innumerable times a day, but we do not notice it. > It arises with cittas rooted in lobha, with cittas rooted in dosa and > cittas which have moha as their only root. > When one feels calm there may be subtle clinging to calm, and then > there is uddhacca, agitation. There can be agitation with indifferent > feeling. Akusala citta may be accompanied by indifferent feeling, and > at that moment there is also uddhacca. > Ignorance always arises together with uddhacca and it darkens its > true nature. > Only the arahat has eradicated uddhacca. > > ***** > Nina. > > > > > #120545 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:09 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa moellerdieter Dear Sarah , you wrote: D: we both agree on the Sukha -Dukkha relation due to change. One should be aware of that when the citta 'is coloured ' by sukkha. > However I don't understand still your conclusion about the point of grief (here: the death of a beloved one) in daily life . .... S: We think the great sadness, the grief is because of the loss of the beloved one. Actually, it's because of the great attachment to our own pleasant feelings. When we think about our loss, we have unpleasant feelings, grief and this leads to more unpleasant feelings as we no longer have the pleasant feelings on account of what is seen, heard, smelt and touched. We think we're so concerned about the others, about the beloved one we lost, but when there's sadness and grief, it shows it's just our own pleasant feeling we're so concerned about. This is why 'vedana' is a khandha by itself - we attach so much importance to our pleasant feelings all day long. It's also why dukkha dukkha is defined in terms of unpleasant feeling, viparinama dukkha in terms of pleasant feeling and sankhara dukkha in terms of neutral feeling. .... > The event is accompanied by unpleasant feeling .... ... S: Let's say the 'thinking about the event' is accompanied by unpleasant feeling. In an ultimate sense, the real problem is the akusala thinking at that (or this) moment, especially the ignorance. ... >...which triggers the urge (tanha) of rejection- not wanting to have , not being able to accept , i.e. dosa in broader meaning than hate. .... S: Yes, dosa conditioned by tanha - Sorrow, lamentation, mental pain, despair, association with the dislike, separation from the liked, not getting what one wants - dosa! (Not sure what you mean by the 'tanha of rejection'). D: (I repeated our exchange , because the details are important ..) dosa is not conditioned by tanha but is one of the 3fold aspects of tanha in a broad meaning of rejection . The real problem as you said is ignorance, but the closer the process of D.O. events runs : ... contact/passa (.. mind -thought and object ,the lost friend) - feeling/vedana , unpleasant - urge /tanha I don't want - attachment /upadana -etc. coming to suffering S:: ( D: >This urge is the condition for clinging , lasting as long as the mourning...... isn't it?).... S: The loss of our pleasant feelings, the clinging to our dreams, to our ideas about past experiences. The real problem is the present thinking with dosa. The only way is the present right understanding of the conditioned dhammas now, including the thinking as just thinking, not belonging to anyone. D: the problem as I see it , happens when the clinging to the emotion (tanha) of unpleasant feelings last for a longer time , then we face a depression, which may become a quite serious ailment. S: one needs to It takes a lot of courage to follow the path and be honest and truthful to the present realities, doesn't it? *** Dhp, Verse 212. "Piyato jaayatii soko, piyato jaayatii bhaya.m, Piyato vippamuttassa natthi soko kuto bhaya.m." "Affection begets sorrow, affection begets fear. For him who is free from affection there is no sorrow; how can there be fear for him?" **** D: for him who is free .. (has followed the path..realized disentchantment, dispassion, detachment ..) we are still confronted to cope with the heavy feelings .. with comfort possible by compassion : it is not only me to which such event happened ( to contemplate 'that hardly any house can't be found in which not a beloved one has died' ) As quoted before by Connie:'Old Age, book 4, Sn': "You dream and meet someone and when you wake they've gone. When someone you love dies it's just the same: I see you hear you call your name. You die and now there's just the name. Greedy people get stuck with sorrow, lamentation, meanness. The wise forget about owning things, wander about in peace." From: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/Sutta-nipataBM6.pdf **** Please let me know how this sounds. It's an important topic for everyone. D: 'Greedy ' sounds (too) tough here , but the conclusion is the same as above : the wise has developed equanimity due to disentchantment..with regard to feelings . It is a bit penetrant to repeat , but don' t we need to work where we are , not where we like to be? with Metta Dieter #120546 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) moellerdieter Dear Nina, just before answering in detail, I stumbled upon : ( D: I assume in D.O. ,sankhara khanda is the aggregate of choice, focus > within the 6 senses media. -------- N: In the D.O. sankhaara is used, or abhisankhaara. I requote a message by Rob Moult: RobM clarified: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17137 >The definition of "sankhara" in Nyanatiloka's "Manual of .. snip D: I understand you refer to sankhara as the second of the 12 links chain, I however to sankhara khanda , as part of nama (/rupa) , being at the 4th place, i.e. avijja -sankhara -vinnana - nama/rupa - etc... with Metta Dieter #120547 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 20, 2011 7:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa nilovg Dear Dieter and Sarah, Op 19-nov-2011, om 19:09 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > It is a bit penetrant to repeat , but don' t we need to work where > we are , not where we like to be? ------ N: A beautiful poem. We are not without sorrow. We are disturbed when there is sickness and death. Every time I asked Kh Sujin about this, she would say: there is seeing now, understand it. This may strange to you, and you wonder: does she answer our questions? It may sound unusual. But here is the truth: there is seeing for everybody now and we should understand what appears right now, that is the way to develop understanding. Only understanding will eventually liberate us from dukkha. Not thinking where we would like to be, but knowing our task now. ------- Nina. #120548 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 20, 2011 7:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 19-nov-2011, om 19:37 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > I understand you refer to sankhara as the second of the 12 links > chain, I however to sankhara khanda , as part of nama (/rupa) , > being at the > 4th place, i.e. avijja -sankhara -vinnana - nama/rupa - etc... ------ N: I have to think this over, not quite understanding where sankhaarakkhandha comes in: naama/ruupa. Nina. #120549 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:15 am Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism kenhowardau Hi Robert E, --------- <. . .> > RE: Well, that's where our views diverge, and where I am sometimes at odds with some folks on the list. I think that ultimately the direct understanding of the nature of arising dhammas is what liberates the mind and ends the cycle of samsara. -------- KH: So far so good . . . ---------------- > RE: But I also think that Buddha taught the conventional aspect of the path of being a good person and that this causes kusala to arise. ---------------- KH: You make it sound as if the latter teaching was for now, and the former teaching was for another, future, time. In fact, the true Dhamma is an entirely here-and-now teaching. ----------------------- RE: Buddha said not to murder and to refrain from various akusala actions. ----------------------- KH: Before he said that, he said he had discovered a *previously unknown Dhamma*. So shouldn't we consider his entreaties (not to murder etc) in the light of that previously unknown Dhamma? Or should we just carry on with our old, conventional understandings of the world? ------------------------- > RE: Of course the mental factors that arise with actions is important, but the actions are important too. I don't believe that "all dhammas are equal." --------------------------- KH: Are you alluding to where I said all conditioned dhammas "equally" arose disinterestedly, performed their functions disinterestedly, and ceased disinterestedly? Do you not believe they *all* do that? Which one doesn't? --------------------------------------- > RE: I think that Buddha taught to cultivate kusala, in addition to regarding all dhammas with detachment and discernment. ---------------------------------------- KH: Detachment (alobha) and discernment (panna) are kusala cetasikas. They arise together as bhavana, which is the *only* way of cultivating kusala. There is no other way! --------------------------------------------------- > RE: If the Dhamma becomes an excuse for feeling okay about doing bad things, in my view it is being abused. --------------------------------------------------- KH: Whenever, it is being used as an excuse for wrong view it - and the entire Triple Gem - is being abused in the worst possible way. Ken H #120550 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:23 am Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism kenhowardau Hi Scott, Just quickly: ----------- > S: "<. . .> "The highest meaning has been declared by the Teacher, without transgressing the concept. So another wise man also should not, in explaining the highest meaning, overrun a concept..." > Scott: There are six apples in a story about six apples but apple is visible object or gustatory object or tangible object or mind-object (concept) in reality or something ultimate, right. I guess I see it like you. Could you find that text you were thinking of? ----------- KH: I don't know. It might have been the one Connie found. Or it might have been the one you have just quoted. Were they both saying the same thing? Or was yours talking about two methods of teaching (Abhidhamma language and conventional language) while Connie's was talking about two kinds of truth? I think Connie may have sussed it out, but I will have to think about what she has written (while I am away being a model son). Ken H #120551 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:36 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Looks like CDL, too dhammasaro Good friend Connie, et al If I may interject... What do you mean by "thorough acquaintance" in your sentence, "All I'm trying to say is 'thorough acquaintance' always strikes me as an oxymoron," Warm thanks... Chuck .............. rest deleted ............... #120552 From: "connie" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:03 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Looks like CDL, too nichiconn dear Chuck, > > What do you mean by "thorough acquaintance" in your sentence, "All I'm trying to say is 'thorough acquaintance' always strikes me as an oxymoron," > It came from something Dieter was quoting. To my mind "acquaintance" is "mere" & ever more shallow than "thorough". That's all. best wishes, connie #120553 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:23 pm Subject: When Not Knowing... bhikkhu5 Friends: Not Knowing Nature & Cause causes Speculation to arise: Once the wanderer Vacchagotta approached the Blessed One & greeted him. Having concluded their compliments, he sat down & asked the Blessed Buddha: Master Gotama, what is the cause, condition & reason why all these various speculative views arise in the world: This Universe is eternal, or This Universe is not eternal. &; This Universe is finite, or This Universe is infinite. &; Vitality & the body are the same, or vitality is one thing, the body is another. &; A Tathagata exists after death, or a Tathagata does not exist after death. Or; The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death. Or; The Tathagata does neither exist, nor does not exist after death? The Blessed Buddha then replied: It is, Vaccha, because of neither knowing form, nor the cause of emergence of form ( rÅ«pa), nor the cause of the ceasing of form, nor the Way to cease form, that those various speculative views, such as: "This Universe is eternal etc..." arise in the world...!!! This ignorance, this not seeing, this not understanding, Vaccha, is the cause, & reason, why those various speculative views keep arising in this world...!!! <...> Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta NikÄya. Book III 257-8 The Vacchagotta section 33. Thread on Not Knowing: AññÄnÄ Sutta (1) http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Knowledge Defeats Ignorance in the End! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu SamÄhita _/\_ * <...> #120554 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas study corner, restlessness. nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 19-nov-2011, om 18:21 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Is uddhacca the opposite of sati? uddhacca seems to be not steady, > forgetful of object when sati is non-forgetful, does not run way > from its object. ------- N: There is absence of the calm of kusala citta. Each kusala citta is accompanied by calm, passaddhi, and also by sati, and many other sobhana cetasikas. Akusala citta with uddhacca lacks the calm and balance (tatramajjhattataa) of kusala citta. It is forgetful of kusala, and thus there is the inability to perform daana, siila or bhaavanaa. ------- Nina. #120555 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:34 pm Subject: Re: Pt's visit by car - this moment does not mean crashing into trees! ptaus1 Hi all, My report on the discussion in Manly, in parts. > Sarah: Pt came over to visit us, by car this time instead of the usual ferry pt: Yes, apologies to all for late replies. Since I got the car, I don't have time to respond while commuting anymore. Though it looks like my radiator is busted, so might have to go back to the train for a few days while the car is getting fixed, which should give me just enough time to finish the report. > Sarah: In brief, to be elaborated on in due course by Pt pt: Our discussion touched on many threads I still need to respond to (paritcularly to RobE's posts regarding meditation) so I hope this report will serve as a good substitute until I get to responding. > Sarah: - thirasa~n~naa, strong sa~n~naa or firm remembrance as the proximate cause of sati. What are the "nuts and bolts" of this. pt: My main interest here was whether strong sanna arises before sati and thus conditions it, or does it arise at the same time as sati. As I understood Sarah and Jon (S&J), "strong sanna" is basically just another name for sanna that arises together with sati. So, sanna can be both kusala and akusala, and if it's arising with kusala citta and sati, then it's "strong sanna" or "strong perception". This basically goes contrary to the belief in some meditative circles that if you focus on something (like your foot), that's what "strong perception" is all about, and that's what will condition sati to arise at some point later, so you just gotta sit there and concentrate. Of course, if strong perception arises at the same time as sati, then it's a completely different story. So how does kusala sanna actually develop? > Sarah: Discussion about listening to the Dhamma and considering it carefully, sa~n~naa of what has been heard as conditioning sati. Also the firm sa~n~naa that arises with sati conditioning it too. pt: The intellectual dilemma that always creeps in is the "first origin" of sati, panna, etc. But, there's not discernible beginning to samsara, so there was sati at some point before. Accordingly, there was strong sanna with it, and therefore, these can condition the same in the future. And if there's hearing of dhamma and wise considering - well, that's the actual development of strong sanna and sati now, and condition for more of the same in the future. But, without hearing dhamma, no development as such, right? So, otherwise there can only be sati by inclination (like in metta moments that are not accompanied by panna, so no development as such). One thing that I'm not fully clear on yet - say I'm talking and thinking about dhamma, but this is with akusala cittas. Then, sanna that arises with these cittas still wouldn't count as development of strong sanna, panna, etc, even though I'm thinking "about dhamma", right? In other words, it's not about the content of the thoughts so to speak, but about cittas, i.e. the way in which the topic is contemplated, right? > Sarah: Nothing to do with repeating a phrase or mantra or sutta repeatedly, trying to have strong sa~n~naa. The desire for results always creeps in. pt: Again, this refers to some ideas in meditative circles regarding emphasis on concetration without really knowing if it is kusala or not - basically, if you just sit there and concentrate (with sanna that is not "strong", so not kusala, so therefore akusala), this will never develop "strong sanna", because strong sanna is only kusala. In other words, akusala sanna does not exercise/improve/develop/condition more kusala sanna, even though they are both called "sanna". So you can sit there and concentrate for a long time, but that will not develop kusala sanna (nor kusala concetration for that matter) in any way. In fact, if kusala sanna and kusala concetration do actually arise during the sitting, it will be in spite of your trying and concentrating. Anyway, that's how I understood S&J on this topic. Next topic - kasinas, jhana and concentration. Best wishes pt #120556 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:52 pm Subject: Cetasika in daily life -Uddhacca /Restlessness moellerdieter Dear all, I write about restlessness just what came into my mind , together with some extracts from the canon and its interpretation . A kind of minor restlessness about restlessness. So it is a bit lengthy .. well, .. Aim is to motivate the reader's own contemplation , recall experiences and possible ways to limit its unwholesome impact. Nina commented already about the matter , but as I did not read her posting yet in order to speak up without influence , you will of course find double mentions, though possibly different in its definition ;-) Please take whatever you consider right or wrong in respect to your ideas and discuss it eventually on the forum. with Metta Dieter Starting with Pali Text Society , which provides plenty of sources: Uddhacca Uddhacca (nt.) [substantivised ger. of ud -- dharati, ud + dhá¹›, cp. uddhaá¹­a & uddhata. The BSk. auddhatya shows a strange distortion. BSk. uddhava seems to be also a substitute for uddhacca] over -- balancing, agitation, excitement, distraction, flurry (see on meaning Dialogues i.82; Dhs trsln. 119; Cpd. 18, 45, 83). A i.256, 282; iii.375, 421, 449; iv.87; v.142, 145, 148; D iii.234; S v.277 sq.; DhSA 260; SnA 492 (in sense of "haughtiness"? for Sn 702 uṇṇata); Nd1 220, 501; Ps i.81, 83; ii.9, 97 sq.; 119, 142, 145, 169, 176; Pug 18, 59; Dhs 427, 429 (cittassa), 1159, 1229, 1426, 1482; Vbh 168, 369, 372, 377; Vism 137, 469 (= uddhata -- bhÄva); Sdhp 459. Together with kukkucca "flurry or worry" u. is enumd. as the 4th of the 5th nÄ«varaṇa's and as the 9th of the 10 saÅ‹yojana's (q. v.), e. g. at D i.71, 246; iii.49, 234, 269, 278; S i.99; A i.3; iii.16; v.30; Nd2 379; Dhs 1486. unquote It strikes that restlessness , which I consider a fitting term , is mentioned together with worry/ remorse (kukkucca) as the 4th aspect of the 5 hindrances. Whereas within the list of the 52 cetasikas the former is classed as one of the 4 unwholesome universals , and the latter as one of the 10 unwholesome occasionals (dosa catukka) . Moreover uddhacca appears merely as the 9th of 10 fetters, abolished only just before ignorance is eradicated . Whereas worry in a general meaning seems to pair very well with restlessness , remorse (dict.: the feeling of being extremely sorry for something wrong or bad that you have done) does not necessarily. From the PTS definition of Kukkucca [kud -- kicca] 1. bad doing, misconduct, bad character. Def. kucchitaÅ‹ kataÅ‹ kukataÅ‹ tassa bhÄvo kukkuccaÅ‹ Vism 470 & Bdhd 24; -- Various explanations in Nd2 on Sn 1106=Dhs 1160, in its literal sense it is bad behaviour with hands and feet (hattha -- padaËš) J i.119=DA i.42 (in combn with ukkÄsita & khipitasadda); hatthaËš alone J ii.142. -- 2. remorse, scruple, worry. In this sense often with vippaá¹­issÄra; and in conn. w. uddhacca it is the fourth of the five nÄ«varaṇas (q. v.) Vin i.49; iv.70; D i.246; S i.99; M i.437; A i.134=Sn 1106; A i.282; Sn 925; Nd2 379; DhA iii.483; iv.88; Sdhp 459; Bdhd 96 however , one may conclude that kukkucca refers to worry in a sense of regret instead of -e.g. - missing an appointment or being excited about an approaching task. My most favored sutta source for restlessness is S.N. XII ,61 (trl. TB) "I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Monks, an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted with this body composed of the four great elements, might grow dispassionate toward it, might gain release from it. Why is that? Because the growth & decline, the taking up & putting down of this body composed of the four great elements are apparent. Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted, might grow dispassionate, might gain release there. "But as for what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness,' the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it. Why is that? For a long time this has been relished, appropriated, and grasped by the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as, 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it. "It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. unquote "The instructed disciple of the noble ones, [however,] attends carefully & appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising..." which describes our usual 'monkey mind' state . Similar like a cattle who keeps looking for the even more greenish meadow . The mind is easily bored (unpleasant feeling) and always attracted what we do not yet have , so it is rather comprehensible that restlessness is only fully abolished at arahant level. 'Grabs a branch , letting go of it , it grabs another branch ' ...., isn't it a beautiful simile for the mind 's business of wandering from one association to another ? Temporarily however , as it is said, the state can avoided by ' attending carefully & appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising..." , which I assume needs inner balance before , i.e. according to instruction, trying to achieve peace within by calming body and mind ( by paying attention to the breathing , see beginning of the Maha Satipatthana Sutta) . Peace of mind ..'no doubt' a core issue of mind development. Some additional ideas from wiki : Inner peace (or peace of mind) refers to a state of being mentally and spiritually at peace, with enough knowledge and understanding to keep oneself strong in the face of discord or stress. Being "at peace" is considered by many to be healthy (homeostasis) and the opposite of being stressed or anxious. Peace of mind is generally associated with bliss, happiness and contentment. Peace of mind, serenity, and calmness are descriptions of a disposition free from the effects of stress. In some cultures, inner peace is considered a state of consciousness or enlightenment that may be cultivated by various forms of training, such as prayer, meditation, T'ai Chi Ch'uan or yoga, for example. Many spiritual practices refer to this peace as an experience of knowing oneself. Finding inner peace is often associated with traditions such as Buddhism and Hinduism. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Lama, emphasizes the importance of inner peace in the world: The question of real, lasting world peace concerns human beings, so basic human feelings are also at its roots. Through inner peace, genuine world peace can be achieved. In this the importance of individual responsibility is quite clear; an atmosphere of peace must first be created within ourselves, then gradually expanded to include our families, our communities, and ultimately the whole planet.[1] unquote  I like to close with Nyanaponika's reference (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel026.html#rest ) the 5 mental hindrances:   Restlessness. Also this word is self-explanatory. Although it is often a negative experience, it is not classified as hatred. The reason is that restlessness may also be accompanied by lust. As an example in daily life we know the awaiting a meeting with a new love. In meditation restlessness is considered as a hindrance, because it prevents mindfulness 4. Restlessness and Remorse   A. Nourishment of Restlessness and Remorse There is unrest of mind; frequently giving unwise attention to it — that is the nourishment for the arising of restlessness and remorse that have not yet arisen, and for the increase and strengthening of restlessness and remorse that have already arisen. — SN 46:51 B. Denourishing of Restlessness and Remorse There is quietude of mind; frequently giving wise attention to it — that is the denourishing of the arising of restlessness and remorse that have not yet arisen, and of the increase and strengthening of restlessness and remorse that have already arisen. — SN 46:51 Six things are conducive to the abandonment of restlessness and remorse: 1. Knowledge of the Buddhist scriptures (Doctrine and Discipline); 2. Asking questions about them; 3. Familiarity with the Vinaya (the Code of Monastic Discipline, and for lay followers, with the principles of moral conduct); 4. Association with those mature in age and experience, who possess dignity, restraint and calm; 5. Noble friendship; 6. Suitable conversation. These things, too, are helpful in conquering restlessness and remorse: Rapture, of the factors of absorption (jhananga); Concentration, of the spiritual faculties (indriya); Tranquillity, concentration and equanimity, of the factors of enlightenment (bojjhanga). When the mind is restless it is not the proper time for cultivating the following factors of enlightenment: investigation of the doctrine, energy and rapture, because an agitated mind can hardly be quietened by them. When the mind is restless, it is the proper time for cultivating the following factors of enlightenment: tranquillity, concentration and equanimity, because an agitated mind can easily be quietened by them. — SN 46:53 C. Simile If there is water in a pot, stirred by the wind, agitated, swaying and producing waves, a man with a normal faculty of sight could not properly recognize and see the image of his own face. In the same way, when one's mind is possessed by restlessness and remorse, overpowered by restlessness and remorse, one cannot properly see the escape from restlessness and remorse that have arisen; then one does not properly understand one's own welfare, nor that of another, nor that of both; and also texts memorized a long time ago do not come into one's mind, not to speak of those not memorized. — SN 46:55           #120557 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:53 pm Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism rjkjp1 Hi ken The thing is every reality has different characteristics, right? Hence while Scotts conventional good deed and the case of the enraged killer are situations, the cittas that condtion each act are different. The killer would have many processes of cittas rooted in extreme dosa, that is how he can load his gun, aim and pull the trigger. Scott may have had cittas rooted in some mild dosa when he saw the. 'present' but later there were kusala cittas or at least not enough cittas with dosa to condition the act of killing. So while no one can detail every citta we know that there were none, in scottas case, as Rob. E. Explained that led to akusala kammapatha, right? So conventional actions and situations are always related - even if we dont see the relation- with the actual realities that are present. Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Scott, > > Just quickly: > > ----------- > > S: "<. . .> > "The highest meaning has been > declared by the Teacher, without transgressing the concept. So another wise man > also should not, in explaining the highest meaning, overrun a concept..." > > > Scott: There are six apples in a story about six apples but apple is visible > object or gustatory object or tangible object or mind-object (concept) in > reality or something ultimate, right. I guess I see it like you. Could you > find that text you were thinking of? > ----------- > > KH: I don't know. It might have been the one Connie found. Or it might have been the one you have just quoted. Were they both saying the same thing? Or was yours talking about two methods of teaching (Abhidhamma language and conventional language) while Connie's was talking about two kinds of truth? I think Connie may have sussed it out, but I will have to think about what she has written (while I am away being a model son). > > Ken H > #120558 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas study corner, restlessness. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Lukas) - In a message dated 11/20/2011 4:29:34 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Lukas, Op 19-nov-2011, om 18:21 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Is uddhacca the opposite of sati? uddhacca seems to be not steady, > forgetful of object when sati is non-forgetful, does not run way > from its object. ------- N: There is absence of the calm of kusala citta. Each kusala citta is accompanied by calm, passaddhi, and also by sati, and many other sobhana cetasikas. Akusala citta with uddhacca lacks the calm and balance (tatramajjhattataa) of kusala citta. It is forgetful of kusala, and thus there is the inability to perform daana, siila or bhaavanaa. --------------------------------------------- HCW: So, uddhacca consists of some degree, from slight (like minor disturbance or distraction) to great (such as extreme excitement), of turmoil, like the roiling of water, which interferes with or even entirely blocks calm and clarity, yes? As an aside, I've noted that as regards meditating, while sloth & torpor are more characteristic hindrances of mine, they are far less disruptive to the process than uddhacca. More generally, this being a greater impediment (of uddhacca's as compared to thina-middha's) is the case for me, I find, on any occasion for which attention is important to be maintained. -------------------------------------------- ------- Nina. =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #120559 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas study corner, restlessness. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 20-nov-2011, om 14:51 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > So, uddhacca consists of some degree, from slight (like minor > disturbance or distraction) to great (such as extreme excitement), > of turmoil, like > the roiling of water, which interferes with or even entirely blocks > calm > and clarity, yes? ------- N: There are many degrees of each akusala dhamma and thus also of uddhacca. I would not think of uddhacca in isolation of the other akusala cetasikas that can accompany akusala citta, all of them operate in a disturbing way. Unwise attention to the object that is experienced is the proximate cause of each kind of akusala. ------ > > H: As an aside, I've noted that as regards meditating, while sloth & > torpor are more characteristic hindrances of mine, they are far > less disruptive > to the process than uddhacca. More generally, this being a greater > impediment (of uddhacca's as compared to thina-middha's) is the > case for me, I > find, on any occasion for which attention is important to be > maintained. > -------------------------------------------- N: Also when there are sloth and torpor with the akusala citta there is uddhacca as well. Akusala citta never lacks uddhacca. ----- Nina. #120560 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pt's visit by car - this moment does not mean crashing into trees! nilovg Dear pt, Many thanks for your report. Op 20-nov-2011, om 11:34 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > So how does kusala sanna actually develop? > > One thing that I'm not fully clear on yet - say I'm talking and > thinking about dhamma, but this is with akusala cittas. Then, sanna > that arises with these cittas still wouldn't count as development > of strong sanna, panna, etc, even though I'm thinking "about > dhamma", right? In other words, it's not about the content of the > thoughts so to speak, but about cittas, i.e. the way in which the > topic is contemplated, right? ------ N: When talking and thinking about Dhamma there is not akusala citta all the time, there are also kusala cittas. AS I see firm sa~n~naa being a condition for sati: sa~n~naa rightly remembers what is the right 'practice', namely being aware of the present object, and as such it is the proximate cause for sati it accompanies at that moment. There need not be any thinking. I all happens in a moment! By conditions! ------ Nina. #120561 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sabhava or 'essence'- Ven. Dhammapiyo nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 4-nov-2011, om 6:04 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > N: We have dosa, we > > notice dosa, and then we hear from Kh Sujin: "it is still your > dosa". > > That wakes us up. It is still thinking of dosa, not the immediate > > attention to its characteristic in being mindful of it. We notice in > > a coarse way when there is kusala and when akusala, but it is still > > "ours". We do not even know naama as naama before the first stage of > > insight, and how could understanding be precise if this is not > known? > > R: It seems to me that I am picking up some of this intellectually > lately, but because it is not direct "dhammas" I'm not sure what to > make of these observations. I mentioned that I suddenly became > interested in the difference between kusala and akusala and started > challenging some actions and intentions that I had thought were > "good" but that turned out to be self-based and trying to get > something out of being nice, and that sort of thing. It seems to me > that this noticing of akusala when certain things come up is a good > thing, but I guess it is somewhere along the line of noticing > kusala and akusala as a concept and applying it to conventional > thoughts, intentions and actions... So I wonder where that kind of > thing fits in. > ------- N: This is valuable, to know what we first took for kusala is not as good as we used to think. there are many unwholesome motives that were hidden before. The Abhidhamma really helps us to know the different cittas. Intellectual understanding can lead to being aware later on of realities that present themselves . ------- > > R: My understanding of nama and rupa has increased a little bit > intellectually too. I guess that's good also, although it's nowhere > close to spotting a real nama or rupa as they arise "in the wild." > Is that something like a crude beginning of pariyatti, or is > pariyatti always something more immediate? > ------ N: Pariyatti pertains to understanding of the present reality. This is not the same as pa.tipatti, direct awareness and understanding, but it is the right condition for it. Listening and considering are the right conditions for more understanding of naama and ruupa in our daily life. When more understanding is the aim, we do not worry about less or more pariyatti or worry about it when pa.tipatti begins. ----- > R: > > If there is no selection of particular objects, such as the > > hindrances you mentioned in another post, then we can begin to learn > > that whatever arises does so because of its own conditions. > > When Buddha chooses certain types of dhammas to talk about, it > seems like he is making a special selection. How should one avoid > thinking of it this way? I know he is giving more than just an > example - he's saying that knowing the hindrances has special > value. So what should one do with that kind of statement? > ------ N: With no selection I mean: not having in mind specific objects sati should be aware of. It just occurs by conditions, nobody can choose what arises at a particular moment. As to knowing the hindrances: desire for sense objects arises time and again and when there can be awareness of it, it can be understood as it is. All akusala dhammas, including the hindrances can be understood as they are if there can be mindfulness of them when they present themselves. ------- > Nina. #120562 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:52 am Subject: Re: Looks like CDL, too scottduncan2 Dieter, D: "please explain why 'Highly Superstitious '?" Scott: Abhidhamma is for those who need a lot of detail - like all of us. To write that Abhidhamma has to be studied *after* something else is a superstitious notion. What terrible thing will happen, for example, if the order is reversed? I've read countless views expressed by those who set aside Abhidhamma for many reasons. All I see is that attempts to understand the Suttas without Abhidhamma clarification amounts to so much daydreaming. D: "In other words ,the Ven. says, 'conventional' teaching first before 'higher' teaching , like multiplication table first .. before calculus The fundamental teachings we find in the Sutta (-Vinaya) Pitaka (not excl. 'higher' teaching there as well), which he emphasizes,one should be thoroughly acquainted with..." Scott: And this skill, none of us have. I do not agree at all. 'Conventional teaching,' as I've seen it's fruits in the views of those who side-step the Abhidhamma, leads to one opinion after another based on a lack of depth. Consider what Buddhaghosa notes in the Introductory Discourse of The Expositor: "...The bhikkhu who is ill trained in the Abhidhamma makes his mind run to excess in metaphysical abstractions and thinks of the unthinkable..." D: "...It is my most unhumble opinion to be fair acquainted with the fundamentals and would give similar credit to quite a number of members...'" Scott: Unhumble indeed. Re-read the statement of Buddhaghosa. Consider your own touchstone - the 'Law of Dependent Origination.' I've read you to invoke this on countless occasions, while appearing to be as yet unable to see that the elements of this particular case of conditionality, expressed by the Suttanta method, are clearly elaborated in the Abhidhamma. I can't often make sense of your own attempts to squeeze Abhidhamma into your apparently very constrained vision of Dhamma-cum-Law of Dependent Origination. None of us know enough of the fundamentals, Dieter - you included. Some are inclined to Abhidhamma (the slowest) and it is good to see your inclinations turning as well. You need the clarification as do we all. Scott. #120563 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas study corner, restlessness. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/20/2011 9:11:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 20-nov-2011, om 14:51 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > So, uddhacca consists of some degree, from slight (like minor > disturbance or distraction) to great (such as extreme excitement), > of turmoil, like > the roiling of water, which interferes with or even entirely blocks > calm > and clarity, yes? ------- N: There are many degrees of each akusala dhamma and thus also of uddhacca. I would not think of uddhacca in isolation of the other akusala cetasikas that can accompany akusala citta, all of them operate in a disturbing way. Unwise attention to the object that is experienced is the proximate cause of each kind of akusala. ------ > > H: As an aside, I've noted that as regards meditating, while sloth & > torpor are more characteristic hindrances of mine, they are far > less disruptive > to the process than uddhacca. More generally, this being a greater > impediment (of uddhacca's as compared to thina-middha's) is the > case for me, I > find, on any occasion for which attention is important to be > maintained. > -------------------------------------------- N: Also when there are sloth and torpor with the akusala citta there is uddhacca as well. Akusala citta never lacks uddhacca. ---------------------------------------------- HCW: Thanks, Nina. I would presume that typically when thina-middha is strong, uddhacca is mild. Am I wrong? If yes, then I think I'm not really clear on the meaning of 'uddhacca'. --------------------------------------------- ----- Nina. ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #120564 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) moellerdieter Dear Nina, you wrote : ( D: I understand you refer to sankhara as the second of the 12 links > chain, I however to sankhara khanda , as part of nama (/rupa) , > being at the > 4th place, i.e. avijja -sankhara -vinnana - nama/rupa - etc... ------ N: I have to think this over, not quite understanding where sankhaarakkhandha comes in: naama/ruupa. D:let me try some more details : there are 5 khandas, i.e. rupa, vedana , sanna , sankhara , vinnana In the 'standard ' formula : avijja - sankhara- vinnana- nama/ rupa -( salayatana -passa -..etc. ), nama doesn't include consciousness (like within the general definition of mind ). We find sankhara khanda at the 4th place together with vedana and sanna under the heading of nama. In MN 9 it is said : 54. "And what is mentality-materiality, what is the origin of mentality-materiality, what is the cessation of mentality-materiality, what is the way leading to the cessation of mentality-materiality? Feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention - these are called mentality." As feeling and perception are different khandas , sankhara khanda ( mental formations ) must be understood here as 'volition, contact and attention' ' P.A.Payutto's writes in his D.O. documentation http://buddhasociety.com/online-books/dependent-origination-p-a-payutto-4-4 "4. Namarupa = Body and Mind:nama (name or mind): feeling, perception, intention, contact, attention, or, according to the Abhidhamma: the khandhas of feeling, perception and volitional impulses; and rupa (body or materiality): the four elements, earth, water, wind and fire and all forms dependent on them. " In respect to other formulars , besides the above source , Nyanatiloka's guide seems to be a good support to understand the D.O. treatment in Abhidhamma see e.g. chapter 48 : http://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/Guide-through-the-Abhidhamma-Pitaka.\ pdf ) with Metta Dieter #120565 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:48 am Subject: Re: Cetasikas study corner, restlessness. szmicio Dear Nina, I was wondering if uddhacca is more like agitation or more like worry? Best wishes Lukas > some quotes from Vis. Ch XIV, 93 and Tiika: > > As to restlessness or agitation, this is a translation of uddhacca. #120566 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:03 am Subject: Re: Looks like CDL, too moellerdieter Hi Scott, D: "please explain why 'Highly Superstitious '?" Scott: Abhidhamma is for those who need a lot of detail - like all of us. D: all of us ?.. again you judge others by your own standard. Although interested and glad to join the Abhidhamma (pitaka) discussion , I am quite certain that there is no need for more details than already provided by the 2 other baskets ,which include as well some of the higher teachings. S: To write that Abhidhamma has to be studied *after* something else is a superstitious notion. What terrible thing will happen, for example, if the order is reversed? D: hm... starting school with calculas ? S: I've read countless views expressed by those who set aside Abhidhamma for many reasons. All I see is that attempts to understand the Suttas without Abhidhamma clarification amounts to so much daydreaming. D: the Dhamma is a gradual teaching , the mundane or conventional teaching before the higher ..sounds logical , doesn't it? Daydreaming is to believe in getting benefits from Abhidhamma before understanding the base /fundamental teaching (of the Sutta Pitaka). I agree with the Venerable. S: (D: "In other words ,the Ven. says, 'conventional' teaching first before 'higher' teaching , like multiplication table first .. before calculus The fundamental teachings we find in the Sutta (-Vinaya) Pitaka (not excl. 'higher' teaching there as well), which he emphasizes,one should be thoroughly acquainted with...") Scott: And this skill, none of us have. I do not agree at all. 'Conventional teaching,' as I've seen it's fruits in the views of those who side-step the Abhidhamma, leads to one opinion after another based on a lack of depth. D: Scott, you judge the views of others ... a number of members will clearly disagree with you . S: Consider what Buddhaghosa notes in the Introductory Discourse of The Expositor: "...The bhikkhu who is ill trained in the Abhidhamma makes his mind run to excess in metaphysical abstractions and thinks of the unthinkable..." D: yes, ill trained in the Abhidhamma ..the reason may be very well the lack of understanding of the fundamentals (conventional teaching) S ( D: It is my most unhumble opinion to be fair aquainted with the fundamentals and would give similar credit to quite a number of members. Are you not judging others by your own standard when you state ' ( the caveat) , would rule everyone out of the discussion...' Scott: Unhumble indeed. Re-read the statement of Buddhaghosa. D: ok , unhumble... nevertheless with no relation to Buddhaghosa , who speaks of the Abhidhamma I never stated to have anymore than a beginners understanding of Abhidhamma unlike that of the Sutta Pitaka. A so called intellectual oriented mind requires more details ...it is ok if you do , but don't include me in your standards S: Consider your own touchstone - the 'Law of Dependent Origination.' I've read you to invoke this on countless occasions, while appearing to be as yet unable to see that the elements of this particular case of conditionality, expressed by the Suttanta method, are clearly elaborated in the Abhidhamma. I can't often make sense of your own attempts to squeeze Abhidhamma into your apparently very constrained vision of Dhamma-cum-Law of Dependent Origination. None of us know enough of the fundamentals, Dieter - you included. Some are inclined to Abhidhamma (the slowest) and it is good to see your inclinations turning as well. You need the clarification as do we all. D: Scott, do me or us a favor : stop judging ! It disturbs a benefitial exchange . The treatment of Dependent Orgination in Abhidhamma is different in certain aspects compared with sutta texts. Please see my message to Nina .. and possibly have a look into the sources I mentioned . It is not a easy matter to understand these different approaches .. and for that - I would agree with you - all of us may need spoon feeding. with Metta Dieter #120567 From: Lukas Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:04 am Subject: Wanting for yourself szmicio Dear all, What is that. that doesn't want to share with others. What cetasika it is? Best wishes Lukas #120568 From: "connie" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:04 am Subject: Re: Looks like CDL, too nichiconn dear Dieter, > > Scott: Abhidhamma is for those who need a lot of detail - like all of us. > > D: all of us ?.. c: 'Fraid so. It's said that of the following four 'people' listed in "Human Types", only the last two walk today: (5) Uggha.tita~n~nuu, vipa~ncita~n~nuu [vipacita~n~nuu (sii.) a. ni. 4.133], neyyo, padaparamo. 5. One of quick understanding, one of medium understanding, one of slow understanding, the superficial reader. They are described in chapter 4: 148. Katamo ca puggalo uggha.tita~n~nuu? Yassa puggalassa saha udaaha.tavelaaya dhammaabhisamayo hoti- aya.m vuccati puggalo <>. 5. What sort of person is quick in acquiring? The person who comprehends the doctrine at the time of its pronouncement is said to be quick in acquiring. 149. Katamo ca puggalo vipa~ncita~n~nuu? Yassa puggalassa sa.mkhittena bhaasitassa vitthaarena atthe vibhajiyamaane dhammaabhisamayo hoti- aya.m vuccati puggalo <>. What sort of person learns by exposition? The person to whom comprehension of the doctrine comes when the meaning of what is briefly uttered is analysed in detail. 150. Katamo ca puggalo neyyo? Yassa puggalassa uddesato paripucchato yoniso manasikaroto kalyaa.namitte sevato bhajato payirupaasato eva.m anupubbena dhammaabhisamayo hoti- aya.m vuccati puggalo <>. What sort of person is one who may be led? The person to whom comprehension of the doctrine comes by recitation, questioning, and earnest attention and by serving, cultivating and waiting upon lovely friends is one who may be led. regards, connie #120569 From: "connie" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:09 am Subject: Re: Looks like CDL, too nichiconn sorry, Dieter, the fourth type: 151. Katamo ca puggalo padaparamo? Yassa puggalassa bahumpi su.nato bahumpi bha.nato bahumpi dhaarayato bahumpi vaacayato na taaya jaatiyaa dhammaabhisamayo hoti- aya.m vuccati puggalo <>. What sort of person is one with whom the word is the chief thing? The person to whom comprehension of doctrine would not come in this life, however much he may hear and say and bear in mind or recite, is said to be one with whom the word is the chief thing. ... connie #120570 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:12 am Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism truth_aerator Hi KenH, all, On non-existence of concepts. Is tree a concept? Yes. If concepts don't exist, then it is impossible to run or drive into what doesn't exist. When you drive, I hope that you take pedestrians and other cars to really exist at that moment so as not to drive into them. It is my understanding that what doesn't exist is something that is permanent, eternally pleasant, or Self. Do concepts have characteristics? Do you distinguish between red and green light on the intersection? Do you distinguish road vs a light post? When you eat, do you distinguish plate from the food? Of course. So it seems to deny any kind of existence and characteristics of concepts to be impractical and impossible. I believe in anicca-dukkha-anatta. IMHO. With best wishes, Alex #120571 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:26 am Subject: Re: Looks like CDL, too scottduncan2 Dieter, D: "...Although interested and glad to join the Abhidhamma (pitaka) discussion , I am quite certain that there is no need for more details than already provided by the 2 other baskets ,which include as well some of the higher teachings..." Scott: Your interest is good but all the more mysterious given this outlandish statement. You suggest there is no need for the detailed analysis given in the Abhidhamma. D: "hm... starting school with calculus?" Scott: As I've noted, this is superstitious thinking and is part of a certain modern perspective that has no basis in the texts. Nor are you paying attention. If you were you'd notice, for example, that the 52 cetasikas represent the basic units of 'experience' - for lack of a better word. These are enumerated and described according to characteristic and function. Calculus has to come *after* learning basic number theory. There is no doubt about this. Abhidhamma is like basic number theory - stripped to the bone, basic, essential. The analogy you use is a poor one and easily done away with. D: "the Dhamma is a gradual teaching , the mundane or conventional teaching before the higher ..sounds logical , doesn't it?..." Scott: No, Dieter, just wrong. When any dhamma is mentioned in the suttas, framed for the most part in a conventional manner, that dhamma is actually only what is clarified in the Abhidhamma as a paramattha dhamma. The language of the suttas is predominantly 'conventional.' Your mistake is to assume that there exists a 'conventional teaching' that differs from an ultimate one in more than just style of language. Consider Buddhaghosa from The Dispeller of Delusion: "647. Herein, the first triad is taken in accordance with the Pariviimansasutta (S ii 80). For therein it is said: 'If he forms a formation of merit, consciousness achieves merit; if he forms a formation of demerit, consciousness achieves demerit; if he forms a formation of the imperturbable, consciousness achieves the imperturbable'. The second triad is taken in accordance with the Vibha"ngasutta next to that. (It is permissible to say that it is taken with the method of the Samaadi.t.thisutta, M i 154, too.) For therein it is said: 'The bodily formation, the verbal formation and the mental formation. "648. But why are these taken in accordance with these suttas? *This Abhidhamma is not newly made; nor is it spoken by sages [outside the dispensation], nor by disciples, nor by deities. But this is spoken by the Omniscient Conqueror. It is in order to illustrate this meaning that a single textual passage is set forth in like manner to the Abhidhamma and in the suttas.*" Scott: As you study the cetasikas - the sine qua non of the Abhidhamma method - you are studying that which clarifies the suttas and teaches the way in which the suttas are meant to be understood. It is not the other way round. D: ok , unhumble... nevertheless with no relation to Buddhaghosa , who speaks of the Abhidhamma. I never stated to have anymore than a beginners understanding of Abhidhamma unlike that of the Sutta Pitaka. A so called intellectual oriented mind requires more details ...it is ok if you do , but don't include me in your standards..." Scott: You are coming to the Abhidhamma for reasons only you know. Be forewarned that your preconceptions will be shattered if you are lucky. Buddhaghosa again (The Dispeller of Delusion): "...the Vinaya and the Suttanta are both figurative (pariyaaya) teaching; but the Abhidhamma is literal (nippariyaaya) teaching..." Scott: Children are incapable of learning figuratively; children need literality until their cognitive capacity matures. Like it or not, no matter what you think you know without knowing the Abhidhamma clarification - a teaching for the most thick-minded as we *all* are - this is the same for all of us. It is very good that you find yourself interested in Abhidhamma. You seem to be in spite of yourself. Just don't pretend you've already got it figured out. Scott. #120572 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:36 pm Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism scottduncan2 Alex, You don't own a humble opinion - neither of us do. A: "...Is tree a concept? Yes. If concepts don't exist, then it is impossible to run or drive into what doesn't exist..." Scott: Hardness exists. Don't be silly. Scott. #120573 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:04 pm Subject: Re: Sabhava or 'essence'- Ven. Dhammapiyo epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Op 4-nov-2011, om 6:04 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > N: We have dosa, we > > > notice dosa, and then we hear from Kh Sujin: "it is still your > > dosa". > > > That wakes us up. It is still thinking of dosa, not the immediate > > > attention to its characteristic in being mindful of it. We notice in > > > a coarse way when there is kusala and when akusala, but it is still > > > "ours". We do not even know naama as naama before the first stage of > > > insight, and how could understanding be precise if this is not > > known? > > > > R: It seems to me that I am picking up some of this intellectually > > lately, but because it is not direct "dhammas" I'm not sure what to > > make of these observations. I mentioned that I suddenly became > > interested in the difference between kusala and akusala and started > > challenging some actions and intentions that I had thought were > > "good" but that turned out to be self-based and trying to get > > something out of being nice, and that sort of thing. It seems to me > > that this noticing of akusala when certain things come up is a good > > thing, but I guess it is somewhere along the line of noticing > > kusala and akusala as a concept and applying it to conventional > > thoughts, intentions and actions... So I wonder where that kind of > > thing fits in. > > > ------- > N: This is valuable, to know what we first took for kusala is not as > good as we used to think. there are many unwholesome motives that > were hidden before. The Abhidhamma really helps us to know the > different cittas. Intellectual understanding can lead to being aware > later on of realities that present themselves . > ------- That makes sense. So it is basically conceptual, but it is pointing in the right direction. ... > ----- > > R: > > > If there is no selection of particular objects, such as the > > > hindrances you mentioned in another post, then we can begin to learn > > > that whatever arises does so because of its own conditions. > > > > When Buddha chooses certain types of dhammas to talk about, it > > seems like he is making a special selection. How should one avoid > > thinking of it this way? I know he is giving more than just an > > example - he's saying that knowing the hindrances has special > > value. So what should one do with that kind of statement? > > > ------ > N: With no selection I mean: not having in mind specific objects sati > should be aware of. It just occurs by conditions, nobody can choose > what arises at a particular moment. > As to knowing the hindrances: desire for sense objects arises time > and again and when there can be awareness of it, it can be understood > as it is. All akusala dhammas, including the hindrances can be > understood as they are if there can be mindfulness of them when they > present themselves. > ------- So the Buddha may be saying that the hindrances are especially important, but he is not saying to look for them, but to understand them when they arise. If that is the case, that makes sense. I guess that's the case with kusala and akusala in general. As I am understanding it, we should understand the difference, but not try to make kusala arise, since that is impossible. Even though kusala is valued, the way for it to develop is to recognize it when it arises. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #120574 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:11 pm Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism epsteinrob Hi Rob K. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Hi ken > The thing is every reality has different characteristics, right? > Hence while Scotts conventional good deed and the case of the enraged killer are situations, the cittas that condtion each act are different. > The killer would have many processes of cittas rooted in extreme dosa, that is how he can load his gun, aim and pull the trigger. > Scott may have had cittas rooted in some mild dosa when he saw the. 'present' but later there were kusala cittas or at least not enough cittas with dosa to condition the act of killing. > So while no one can detail every citta we know that there were none, in scottas case, as Rob. E. Explained that led to akusala kammapatha, right? > > So conventional actions and situations are always related - even if we dont see the relation- with the actual realities that are present. Thank you for clarifying that point - that's very helpful to me. I tend to think that way too, that what appear to be conventional actions or events are a conglomeration of dhammas that we are not refined enough to see individually, and therefore we get the compressed view, or nimitta or concept of what is really arising. Yet the conventional event that is thus created is still related to all the real dhammas involved, if we were able to see them. I think that's what you're saying - if not, and I am saying something different, I'd be happy to hear how you feel it works. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = #120575 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:34 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] dhammasaro Good friend Howard, et al She is home now. She is to have a check-up in two weeks. Monday, she is to call one of her doctors. It is now my responsibility; she has the best of care!!! I was most displeased when the ER doctor asked her, under morphine sedation, if she wanted special care if she died during the operation!!! What operation??? He did not even check her temperature!!! So, I sent e-mails to her doctor friends in Thailand about my concerns. Evidently, it helped. Her attending nurse accompanied us to the car!!! A first!!! Sincere warm thanks for your concerns. yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck ........... rest deleted ......................... #120577 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:53 am Subject: Being is Burning... bhikkhu5 Friends: The Fire of Lust, Hate & Ignorance! The Blessed Buddha once said: On this occasion the Blessed One was staying at Gaya's Head, together with a thousand bhikkhus. There the Blessed One told these bhikkhus this: Bhikkhus, All this is burning! And what, bhikkhus, is that All that is burning? The eye, ear, nose, tongue, body & mind is burning. Forms, sounds, smells, flavours, touches, and mental states are also burning! Any eye, ear, nose, tongue, body & mental consciousness is also burning! Any eye, ear, nose, tongue, body & mental contact is also burning! Any feeling arised caused by eye, ear, nose, tongue, body or mental contact, whether pleasant, painful or neutral, that too is indeed also burning... Burning with what? I say: Burning with the fire of lust, hate and confusion, birth, ageing, death, sadness, weeping, pain, frustration, & with desperation! Seeing this, bhikkhus, the instructed Noble disciple is disgusted with any eye, ear, nose, tongue, body & mind, he is disgusted with any form, sound, smell, flavour, touch, and any mental state, he is disgusted with any eye, ear, nose, tongue, bodily or mental consciousness & contact, and with whatever feeling, whether pleasant, painful or neutral, caused by whatever sensed contact, with that too is he dismayed, disgusted, sickened, revolted, and horrified! Understanding this, the intelligent Noble disciple is disgusted with this All ... Being disgusted creates disillusion... Disillusion evaporates clinging and this relinquishment of all forms of sensing and feeling induces mental release! When detached the mind is unagitated! Being all imperturbable one attains Awakening right there & instantly understands: This mind is forever freed! Rebirth is ended, the Noble Life is completed, done is what should be done, there is no state beyond or surpassing this...! This is what the Blessed One said. Elated, those bhikkhus was pleased with the Blessed One's speech. While this teaching was being spoken, the minds of the thousand bhikkhus were released from fermentation by non-clinging... Comments: The Fire Sermon! These bhikkhus were all prior fire-worshippers, who in blinded superstition sacrificed to the fire morning and evening! This fact made Buddha realize: If I teach them, that the 12 sense-sources are blazing & burning with pain, they will awaken right there in their seats by relinquishing all clinging... <...> Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikâya. Book IV 19-20 The 6 senses section 35. Thread on Burning: Âdittam Sutta (28) http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #120578 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:26 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Dribble Was: Looks like Buddhism dhammasaro Good friend Sukin, et al She is home now... I sent several e-mails to our Thailand medico doctor/executive friends. Seems it helped!!! I brought her home... her attending nurse even carried her belongings to our car as we were leaving... a first!!! No doubt an international call from a MD inquiring on an USA patient grabs attention!!! Sincere warm thanks good friend... If there is anything I can do in helping restore your home; please advise. Monetary or other... sincerely offered... peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck ......... rest deleted .............................. #120579 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) nilovg Dear Dieter, thank you for the quotes. Op 20-nov-2011, om 18:20 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > P.A.Payutto's writes in his D.O. documentation http:// > buddhasociety.com/online-books/dependent-origination-p-a-payutto-4-4 > "4. Namarupa = Body and Mind:nama (name or mind): feeling, > perception, intention, contact, attention, or, according to the > Abhidhamma: the khandhas of feeling, perception and volitional > impulses; and rupa (body or materiality): the four elements, earth, > water, wind and fire and all forms dependent on them. " > > In respect to other formulars , besides the above source , > Nyanatiloka's guide seems to be a good support to understand the > D.O. treatment in Abhidhamma see e.g. chapter 48 : ---------- Yes, The Guide is very good, but short. Nyanatiloka gives some formulas, and 3-7 are still the passive side of life, that is vipaaka, including cetanaa. The Vis. Ch XVII gives more details, but not easy to grasp the complexity of the matter. As you rightly said, naama are here cetasikas. It is the term sankhaara that has several meanings and could give rise to misunderstandings. I quote from my study: < In the context of the Dependent Origination: with consciousness as condition, mentality-materiality', mentality or naama is here the khandhas of feeling, of sa~n~naa and of formations. These khandhas include all cetasikas. > We have to keep in mind that these cetasikas are vipaaka, including volition. ------ Nina. > #120580 From: "charlest" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:21 pm Subject: Re: Dribble Was: Looks like Buddhism dhammasaro Good friend Scott, et al Please forgive my delay in responding on your query about "tornadoes." I have been preoccupied with my best friend and lover's medical condition. First, a sincere warm "Thank you" for your many kind responses... I truly cling to her... Second, she is home. Third, I have been in two tornadoes in Oklahoma City, OK!!! Once in the men restroom at a baseball field. The other, in my Hilton West Motel room. Fortunately, both were minor tornadoes!!! Fourth, I also had the "eye" of a hurricane pass over my southern New Jersey home. At the time, I had four or five engineers from Sweden as their motel said to evacuate as it was near the bay. It was barely classed as a hurricane, fortunately... They later enjoyed telling their associates that they were in a hurricane and the rain now in Sweden was the former hurricane... Ah... such is mundane life... I am sure there is some Dhamma-vinaya aspect in the above... Discussion? yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck .......... rest deleted .............. #120581 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nama more subtle than rupa? sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > S: Because of sanna marking and remembering what is seen, heard and thought about, there is more and more thinking about concepts, a "sea of concepts". > > Ph: Thanks. > Yes, of course sanna can't "keep on thinking", I guess she meant that all that sanna makes for more and more thinking. .... S: Without sanna, no thinking. Here's a quote from KS that Nina gave recently on this point (#119555): "KS:If we think of the body as being somewhere, there is an idea of my body that is sitting, lying down, standing or walking. When the true nature of realities will appear, their arising and falling away, there will not be an idea of posture. The idea of a collection of realities, of a group, a `whole' will be eliminated. The idea of a whole hinders the experience of the arising and falling away of realities. Even when closing one's eyes one may think of oneself as sitting, standing, walking or lying down. Even when no ruupa is appearing sa~n~naa remembers postures. It conceals the arising and falling of dhammas in succession, it takes them as a whole. Realities arise and fall away so fast but sa~n~naa is the condition to stay in the ocean of concepts." ... > >P: BTW, re the subtlety of nama and rupa, I think I heard that the object of the first vipassana-nana that knows nama from rupa is a nama. Did I hear right? Is it the nama that is the mind door? Talk about subtle, if that is the case.... .... S: The object, the reality, can be any reality - nama or rupa. I think what you heard is that vipassana-nana must experience realities through the mind-door. The mind-door cittas are namas of course. Rupas may also be experienced through the sense-doors in between as well. Metta Sarah ==== #120582 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dribble Was: Looks like Buddhism nilovg Dear Chuck, Op 21-nov-2011, om 8:21 heeft charlest het volgende geschreven: > I truly cling to her... > > Second, she is home. ------- N: I am glad about this, and best wishes for a speedy recovery, Nina. #120583 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sabhava or 'essence'- Ven. Dhammapiyo nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 21-nov-2011, om 4:04 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > So the Buddha may be saying that the hindrances are especially > important, but he is not saying to look for them, but to understand > them when they arise. If that is the case, that makes sense. > > I guess that's the case with kusala and akusala in general. As I am > understanding it, we should understand the difference, but not try > to make kusala arise, since that is impossible. Even though kusala > is valued, the way for it to develop is to recognize it when it > arises. ------- N: You are right, not looking for kusala or make it arise. When it appears, to understand its characteristic as only a conditioned dhamma. This is more than just recognizing it. But we are inclined to name it, that is very natural. Also that is just a dhamma. ------- Nina. #120584 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas study corner, restlessness. nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 20-nov-2011, om 19:48 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > I was wondering if uddhacca is more like agitation or more like worry? ------ N: It depends what you mean by worry. Kukkucca is sometimes translated as worry or as regret. It arises due to the commission of akusala or the omission of kusala. At the moment of kukkucca there is also uddhacca, the cetasika that is not calm, agitated. They are different cetasikas, and if we only use English translations there will be confusion. ------ Nina. #120585 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:36 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sabhava or 'essence'- Ven. Dhammapiyo sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all, Catching up with some unanswered posts - nntr, Phil! (no need to reply!!) This was about some brief semi-dhamma chats I had with other swimmers in Manly - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Interesting that you say "depends on our inclinations at the time what we hear", or can hear. On another day, he might have been the one who appreciated it. But realistically we know that some of our non-Dhamma friends are far more likely to listen and hear. > > Could you say a little more, if you remember, about how you put your "present moment, living alone, regardless of the circumstances?" > Did you go as far as saying "at this moment, only a moment of seeing, a moment of hearing" etc... ... S: I may have to the lady who showed a glimmer of interest the next day. She also said she'd like to join us when we next have a dhamma discussion there. I've heard KS talk about this moment of seeing and so on to people who really have shown no interest at all and she's afterwards explained to me that we never know when the seeds planted will bear fruit - maybe not even this life. Sometimes people have told me that something I said ages and ages ago had an effect even though I wouldn't have had the slightest idea at the time. We never know, so worth trying to say a little when there's a chance. Thinking again about the Farmer's fields... With the mosquitoes (#119779) - maybe you and Naomi would both sleep better if there was less fussing about and thought or killing the mosquitoes! Akusala is what harms us! Metta Sarah ===== no matter how firmly I believe that, still feel completely shy and idiotic about saying anything about it to people... > > Metta, > > Phil > #120586 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Wanting for yourself nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 20-nov-2011, om 20:04 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > What is that. that doesn't want to share with others. What cetasika > it is? ------- N: Stinginess or avarice, macchariya. ------ Nina. #120587 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas study corner, restlessness. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 20-nov-2011, om 17:41 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > N: Also when there are sloth and torpor with the akusala citta there > is uddhacca as well. Akusala citta never lacks uddhacca. > ---------------------------------------------- > HCW: > Thanks, Nina. I would presume that typically when thina-middha is > strong, uddhacca is mild. Am I wrong? If yes, then I think I'm not > really clear > on the meaning of 'uddhacca'. > --------------------------------------------- N: This is hard to tell, since all akusala cetasikas that arise with akusala citta condition one another. Thina-middha arises only with akusala cittas that are sasankhaarika, induced, and these are weaker that those that are asankhaarika, spontaneous, without any inducement. We cannot catch uddhacca, or point to it, but it is useful to know that it accompanies each akusala citta. It is eradicated by the magga- citta of the arahat, so this will be a long, long time. ------ Nina. #120588 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:45 pm Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa sarahprocter... Hi Rob E & Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > 'Thanks for starting the CDL corner, Dieter. I suggest we go slowly through the cetasikas - like one (or two if paired) a week, so anyone can contribute and to give slow dancers like me a chance to catch up!' > > > > D: fine with me .. slowfox a good choice, isn't it ? .... S: Is that a slow foxtrot? As you'll see, I'm going v.slowly... ... > >R: I look forward to this thread - and the slow pace, so that the cetasikas can be carefully examined one by one [or two by two.] I seem to learn about the complexities of Abhidhamma more easily by corresponding in these posts - an interactive approach that fits my learning style. It chagrins some that I don't study more systematically by sitting down and reading a whole book, but I find that difficult these recent years; so I really am glad that Dieter initiated this idea, and that you are enthusiastic -- very exciting. ... S: No need to "chagrin some" - no need 'study more systematically" - let it be fun and interesting. I haven't read all the posts on uddhacca (restlessness) yet. It seems obvious when we're jumping all over the place that there is restlessness, a conventional idea about restlessness. What about now when there's a feeling of comfortable warmth and a little attachment to it or just ignorance when we look out of the window? Whenever the cittas are akusala (i.e all those in the javana processes not involved with dana, sila or bhavana), uddhacca is arising, along with ahirika and anottappa. In other words, whenever there isn't kusala calm (most the time), there is uddhacca arising. Hmmm, plenty of food for thought in the Dhamma... Never mind whether we call it Abhidhamma, Dhamma or Sutta - it's all there to be understood at this moment. Metta Sarah ====== #120589 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:45 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Dribble Was: Looks like Buddhism dhammasaro Good friend Nina, Very sincere warm thanks... I truly cling to her, in both the vernacular and Dhamma-vinaya language understandings... her very quiet everyday mundane living led this ole very gruff, independent thinking, obstinate, somewhat obnoxious Texican... led me to Theravada Buddhism... yours in the dhamma-vinaya, Chuck To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com From: vangorko@... <...> N: I am glad about this, and best wishes for a speedy recovery, <...> #120590 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 21-nov-2011, om 9:45 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > Hmmm, plenty of food for thought in the Dhamma... Never mind > whether we call it Abhidhamma, Dhamma or Sutta - it's all there to > be understood at this moment. ------ N: There often are discussions about the Abhidhamma and people only think of books. I remember what Kh Sujin said: seeing is dhamma, or Abhidhamma, or paramattha dhamma. At first people may feel puzzled, but when one considers more deeply, it is quite true. The whole of the teachings pertain to our life right now. With this in mind, we read the suttas about seeing, hearing etc. and also the Abhidhamma in a different way. The study and reading is then more relevant to our life now. We come to discover that the suttas are full of Abhidhamma. ------- Nina. #120592 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:14 pm Subject: Re: view 'I have no self' is wrong view sarahprocter... Dear Dieter & Scott, > D: "...Let us see how far we come ..the danger of course is that we get bogged down in details or getting astrayed in Abhidhamma's overabundance, but I think it is worth the trial." > > Scott: Abhidhamma *is* 'details;' Abhidhamma *does* provide an 'overabundance.' I have never understood the rather superstitious notion that there is 'danger' in studying Abhidhamma. .... Sarah: Or perhaps we can say that Abhidhamma/abhidhamma is just the dhamma now in daily life. At this moment, there's seeing - it's abhidhamma, there's visible object, it's abhidhamma. There's uddhacca, ahirika, anottappa - not names, but dhammas which arise throughout the day with all the very many moments of lobha, dosa and moha. Gradually we learn more and more about abhidhamma by understanding more and more about life at this very moment. Metta Sarah === #120593 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:23 pm Subject: Re: view 'I have no self' is wrong view sarahprocter... Dear Alex & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >Scott: Abhidhamma *is* 'details;' Abhidhamma *does* provide an >'overabundance.' I have never understood the rather superstitious >notion that there is 'danger' in studying Abhidhamma. > >======================================================= > >A: Of course there is danger in that the person will mistake one's knowledge of the words for the attainment, or worse, for truth and nothing but the truth. The more one knows, the more questions one can ask (look at me). The more questions one asks and get answers for the more one knows... And the cycle continues. The more one knows, the more one has to let go off. So rather than making path easier, excessive study just makes it worse. .... S: I think there are two kinds of study: there is book knowledge study as you describe and there is the study of realities which the Buddha taught. .... >Not seeing this, some justify their lack of progress for "lack of accumulations" and the need to study more (which just digs a deeper conceptual hole). .... S: Again, it depends on the kind of study we're talking about. If it's just a deeper and deeper "conceptual hole" without the development of any direct understanding of realities, it isn't the path of satipatthana. On the otherhand, there has to be the hearing and considering about present realities in order for satipatthana to develop. ... > "If a monk understands the meaning and the text of Dhamma-even if it be but a stanza of four lines-and be set on living in accordance with the dhamma (dhammaanudhammappa.tipanno), he may be called "one widely learnt (bahussuto), who knows Dhamma by heart.". > A ii, 177 AN 4.186 Approach .... S: We both like this sutta and quote it. Yes, good to consider what is meant by "bahussuto" (widely learnt). Metta Sarah ===== #120594 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Puggala pa~n~natti sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, Nina, > > When, lets say, "lobha" cetasika arises, how do we know that it is lobha and not something else? ... S: Only panna can know when it arises and directly understands the characteristic of that lobha when it appears. Trying to 'work it out', will never know it. Metta Sarah ==== #120595 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 201 dhammas to be "directly known" sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >S:Thinking about concepts of the Dhamma and direct understanding of >realities are different. Satipatthana refers to the development of >the direct understanding of realities, not to any particular >activity. > >======================================= > >A: Development of direct understanding is an intentional activity through the mind. .... S: What do you mean by this? ... > >S:#120471 > >Now, there can be direct understanding of the reality itself. You >mentioned that citta cannot know itself. However, it has its >particular characteristic which can be known immediately. > >=================================================== > > Its particular characteristic is know about by the later cittas while this original citta whose characteristics are known, no longer exists. So the characteristics that one knows is of something that no longer is. How is it different from correctly thinking about it? One cannot examine the characteristics of the present momentary citta in the same moment. .... S: Let's talk about lobha (attachment). Lobha arises with particular cittas and then falls away as those cittas fall away. In the subsequent mind-door process, the characteristic of lobha (the reality) can be the object of cittas accompanied by panna which directly know the reality of lobha. In the texts, this is referred to as the present object, the present reality, even though, as you rightly point out, in fact the lobha itself has fallen away. It is the nimitta (image) of that lobha. Only nibbana doesn't have nimitta. Even at vipassana nanas, it is the nimitta of the reality which is realised. This is not thinking! This is quite different from thinking about lobha in later mind-door processes. No 'one' to examine anything. Panna just 'knows' the object, the reality appearing. There may well be lots of doubt, lots of thinking, but realities such as lobha, doubt and thinking can be directly known now. Good questions. Metta Sarah ===== #120596 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:46 pm Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism jonoabb Hi Alex (and KenH) Hope you don't mind me butting in here. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hi KenH, all, > > On non-existence of concepts. Is tree a concept? Yes. > =============== J: In terms of the teachings on dhammas, 'tree' is a concept (since there's no dhamma that is 'tree'). This word 'dhamma' is important. 'Dhammas' refers to those phenomena that have a unique characteristic that can be directly experienced (by panna). The Buddha spoke often and at length about dhammas, classifying them in various ways, for example, as khandhas, as dhatus, as ayatanas, as the four foundations of mindfulness (to mention but a few). Dhammas 'exist'/have 'existence' in the sense of having a characteristic that (a) can be directly experienced by panna and (b) as so experienced, is unique to that dhamma and is the same for all time and for all beings by whom any dhamma of that kind is experienced. Only dhammas can be said to exist in this sense of the word. In the texts this is referred to as the 'ultimate' sense, in contradistinction to the sense in which the world is ordinarily known to and experienced by us and by all being (which for convenience we may refer to as the 'conventional' sense). Other than dhammas, anything we may take to exist in any absolute sense is in fact a mind-created composite and so, in the ultimate sense above (or, in the words used in the suttas, 'in truth and reality'), is not a 'thing' at all and does not have existence. > =============== > [A:] If concepts don't exist, then it is impossible to run or drive into what doesn't exist. > =============== J: It depends on the manner of speaking/level of speech. In the ultimate sense, as defined above, dhammas are the only things that exist. As there is no such dhamma as 'car' or 'tree', there can be no such 'thing' in the ultimate sense as the conventional event we call a car running into a tree. > =============== > [A:] When you drive, I hope that you take pedestrians and other cars to really exist at that moment so as not to drive into them. > =============== J: We live our lives as if cars and trees exist and are real, as of course they do in the conventional (i.e., ordinary) sense. And so for that matter does the enlightened being also live life, in terms of outward appearances. The teachings do not suggest the situation should be otherwise. However, the truths discovered/realised by the Buddha at the time of his enlightenment concern a different kind of world/reality/existence than the conventional one, a world that is to be known only by panna. > =============== > [A:] It is my understanding that what doesn't exist is something that is permanent, eternally pleasant, or Self. > =============== J: Not sure whether you're speaking conventionally here or in the ultimate sense. Either way, I'm afraid I don't get your point. > =============== > [A:] Do concepts have characteristics? Do you distinguish between red and green light on the intersection? Do you distinguish road vs a light post? When you eat, do you distinguish plate from the food? Of course. > =============== J: Of course, conventional objects are perceived as having characteristics. But the way to release from samsara does not lie in a deeper understanding of conventional objects or their perceived characteristics. That is not the understanding taught by the Buddha, in my view. Conventional objects and their (conventional) characteristics are mind-created composites. A conventional object does not have a characteristic that is unique to that object and is the same for all time and for all beings by whom the object is experienced. While in general terms it can be said that conventional objects and their characteristics are experienced in the same manner by all -- or at least sufficiently alike for one person to know what the other is talking about -- a closer analysis reveals that this is not really so. > =============== > [A:] So it seems to deny any kind of existence and characteristics of concepts to be impractical and impossible. > =============== J: Mind-created composite ideas do not have existence in the ultimate sense. But there is no denial of the conventional existence of concepts. > =============== > [A:] I believe in anicca-dukkha-anatta. > =============== When the Buddha spoke of anicca-dukkha-anatta, he (almost) invariably did so in the context of dhammas. I think you'll find that any textual references to anicca-dukkha-anatta in the context of a conventional object, if there is such, is in fact a reference to the dhammas that are taken for that object. Jon #120597 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:44 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: There often are discussions about the Abhidhamma and people only > think of books. I remember what Kh Sujin said: seeing is dhamma, or > Abhidhamma, or paramattha dhamma. > At first people may feel puzzled, but when one considers more deeply, > it is quite true. The whole of the teachings pertain to our life > right now. With this in mind, we read the suttas about seeing, > hearing etc. and also the Abhidhamma in a different way. The study > and reading is then more relevant to our life now. We come to > discover that the suttas are full of Abhidhamma. ... S: Yes, we're thinking alike - my post #120592 crossed with yours! Never mind 'dhamma' or 'Abhidhamma'. Metta Sarah ===== #120598 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:32 pm Subject: Re: Cetasikas study corner, restlessness. szmicio Dear Nina > N: It depends what you mean by worry. Kukkucca is sometimes > translated as worry or as regret. It arises due to the commission of > akusala or the omission of kusala. At the moment of kukkucca there is > also uddhacca, the cetasika that is not calm, agitated. They are > different cetasikas, and if we only use English translations there > will be confusion. > ------ L: So kukkucca is worry about deeds done in the past only and uddhacca then is not a worry? What about being worried not about deeds done? Best wishes Lukas #120599 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] upasaka_howard Hi, Chuck - In a message dated 11/21/2011 12:40:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, dhammasaro@... writes: Good friend Howard, et al She is home now. ------------------------------------------- HCW: Ahhh, that's wonderful. :-) -------------------------------------------- She is to have a check-up in two weeks. Monday, she is to call one of her doctors. It is now my responsibility; she has the best of care!!! -------------------------------------------- HCW: I'm sure! -------------------------------------------- I was most displeased when the ER doctor asked her, under morphine sedation, if she wanted special care if she died during the operation!!! What operation??? He did not even check her temperature!!! ------------------------------------------- HCW: It strikes me as a crazy question, and he sounds way less than competent! -------------------------------------------- So, I sent e-mails to her doctor friends in Thailand about my concerns. Evidently, it helped. Her attending nurse accompanied us to the car!!! A first!!! Sincere warm thanks for your concerns. ----------------------------------------- HCW: I make an alcohol-free toast to her health!! You both have my very best wishes. ------------------------------------------ yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous)