#121000 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Dec 4, 2011 4:38 pm Subject: Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" epsteinrob Hi Scott and all. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Nina, > > N: "...She also remarked that nowhere in the teachings many details are given as to the development of insight in stages, because it is a personal matter (paccatta.m). What she stressed: the objects of understanding are the same, but understanding develops, becomes deeper. The objects are the characteristics of naama and ruupa as they present themselves one at a time through the six doorways." > > Scott: This suggests that pa~n~naa is pa~n~naa and functions in the same way naturally throughout all the stages of it's development. While the objects taken, the rate, order and whatnot might be paccata.m, surely this can't mean that pa~n~natti is one thing for one and another thing for another; or that nimitta and pa~n~natti are either the same thing or different things depending on the 'person.' Nor can it mean that there is *no* precision necessary since it's all up to the individual. > > If this all *can't* be known because it isn't explained anywhere, then fine. If it *is* clarified somewhere, a consensus based on getting it straight would be a good result of ongoing discussions. So far it seems muddier than clearer. I'm hunting around for references to see if I can discover the range of ways in which pannati and nimitta are used within the materials I have access to. An interesting use of nimitta as characteristic - that is conventional characteristics, signs or appearances by which a type of person or object is recognized as that type - is employed in a Dhammasangani footnote, speaking of the appearances by which a woman is recognized as a woman: "Characteristics (nimittam) are that by which she is recognisable (sanjananam), both external bodily marks (no beard, e.g., nor tusks, which would seem to include certain animals) and modes of dressing." In another Dhammasangani footnote, nimitta is again explained to stand for characteristic appearances, this time in the context of grasping after attractive appearances: "Nimittagahl... is, in the Atthasalini, defined as the act of one who, not content with simply beholding what is attractive and so forth, or what is characteristically female or male, grasps at it with passionate desire." Here is a long passage from an interesting article on The Dhamma Theory, which outlines the relationship of dhammas to pannatti among other things. The most interesting aspect of this discussion is the assertion that in Theravada and Abhidhamma it is understood that pannatti can be known, even though they don't have actual characteristics. This could lead to a possible resolution of the seeming contradiction that pannatti can be the object of panna: "Thus, for the Theravadin, the use of the term paramattha does not carry any substantialist implications. It only means that the mental and material dhammas represent the utmost limits to which the analysis of empirical existence can be pushed. "The description of dhammas as paramattha means not only their objective existence (paramatthato vijjamanata) but also their cognizability in an ultimate sense (paramatthato upalabbhamanata).73 The first refers to the fact that the dhammas obtain as the ultimate, irreducible data of empirical existence. The second refers to the fact that, as such, the content of our cognition can also be finally analysed into the self-same elements. This is not to suggest that it is only the dhammas that become objects of knowledge; for it is specifically stated that even pannattis, i.e. concepts, which are the products of the synthetical function of the mind and hence lack objective counterparts, are also knowable (neyya).74 "In point of fact, in the technical terminology of the Abhidhamma, the term dhamma is sometimes used in a wider sense to include anything that is knowable.75 In this sense, not only the ultimate realities -- the dhammas proper -- but also the products of mental interpretation are called dhammas. To distinguish the two, the latter are called asabhava-dhammas, i.e. dhammas devoid of objective reality.76 The use of this term in this wider sense is reminiscent of its earlier meaning as shown in the Pali Nikayas, where it is used in a very general sense to include all cognizable things on the empirical level. However, there is this situation to be noted: Although both dhammas and concepts (pannattis or asabhava-dhammas) constitute the content of knowledge, it is into the dhammas that the content of knowledge can be finally analysed. Thus there is a close parallelism between the dhammas on the one hand and the contents of knowledge on the other. That is to say, the ultimate irreducible data of cognition are the subjective counterparts of the ultimate irreducible data of objective existence." Here is the link for the full article: http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha227.htm Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #121001 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Dec 4, 2011 7:06 pm Subject: Re: 'Right concepts' jonoabb Hi Scott --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Jon, > > Me: "...Specifically, this seems to suggest that consciousness - citta with pa~n~naa - creates it's own object ('concept of the Dhamma') within the same moment of it's arising." > > J: "Yes, I guess it does suggest that. But as to how that may occur (the 'mechanics'), I'm afraid I have no idea :-)). (But then that also goes for the mechanics of much of what we discuss here.) Any particular sticking points you'd like to raise?" > > Scott: Well, one would be whether or not my attempts to clarify this sort of thing at all fall outside of the limits of what is to be discussed on the list. > =============== J: Of course not. > =============== A related one might be whether 'the mechanics' of things are not to be discussed. > =============== J: No such 'rule' here (although there may of course be a question of whether the mechanics of something is a useful matter for further investigation/discussion). > =============== I do appreciate 'I have no idea' as an answer though. When I have no idea, I try to get one and I call that discussion. > =============== J: On some matters I prefer not to hazard a guess, if I really have no idea and/or I'm unsure of the value of pursuing the point. > =============== > Otherwise, if you think that citta with pa~n~naa and concept of the Dhamma all arise at the same time, then fine. Sounds good to me. > =============== J: That's how I understand it to happen. > =============== If 'creates it's own object' is imprecise, I wouldn't mind hearing about it. I say it that way, by the way, because concepts are not realities, are time-freed and all that, and so 'created' by mind. > =============== J: That's just how I would describe it also. Jon #121002 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 4, 2011 7:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" nilovg Dear Phil and Scott, Op 3-dec-2011, om 18:32 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > I have heard A Sujin say that it is concept (India 2004) and later > that it isn't. ----- N: In different contexts. It depends! She also said: first know naama and ruupa and then cetasikas such as lobha and dosa. Now I heard: one has to know what is kusala and what is akusala. It depends! All these things do not upset me. We also find in the Abhidhamma different classifications that seem contradictional, but they aren't. Different aspects are stressed at different moments. I do appreciate Scott's questions and he is sincere in trying to find out about the truth. I shall try to go over them later on. There is a so called western approach, very logical, and people with this approach fall immediately over what they call not logical. It is with the emphasis on the ratio, they are rationalizing. That is conditioned and to me it is O.K., I have no criticism. The approach I learnt in Thailand is different, and this suits me personally. I am not falling over the fact that someone says different things at different times. Shall we say: it depends on the moment? In Thai I often hear the expression, it depends (lew te), and I feel at home with this. ------ Nina. #121003 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 4, 2011 8:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nimitta nilovg HI Howard, Op 3-dec-2011, om 21:01 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > It seem to me that a nimitta is the sign or mark produced by sa~n~na > when operating on an object of consciousness. This would be a sort of > proto-concept, an elementary, sense-datum that is mind-produced > from the object, > and is akin the "the percept" of Psychology. ------- N: Nimitta has different meanings in different contexts. What we are discussing now refers to sa"nkhaara nimitta, the nimitta of each of the five khandhas and this is different from what you wrote above. ----- Nina. #121004 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 4, 2011 8:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 4-dec-2011, om 5:39 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > Is there a place where pannati is discussed in a concise and > systematic way? ------ N: You could try Suvey of Paramattha dhammas, which has a specific section: concepts. When Lodewijk read that for the first time he said that this should be inserted in each Dhamma book. Questions welcome, you always have good remarks. Nina. #121005 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 4, 2011 8:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 4-dec-2011, om 5:51 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > In that context, K. Sujin has said on tape and reported by others > that it doesn't matter whether you are seeing nimitta or dhamma if > the seein is correct; the dhammas involved can be understood > correctly even if they aren't being seen in "real-time." So an > advanced nimitta can be an approximation or delayed correct view of > real dhammas for those who can't see them as they occur but have > correct understanding. ----- N: Well said, Nina. #121006 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 4, 2011 8:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" nilovg Dear Phil and Scott, Op 3-dec-2011, om 23:37 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > I'll also add that having heard a very good teacher Sayadaw U > Silananda (always hard to believe he had anything to do with the > slow-mo fork lifters) say that the reality is technically speaking > no longer present but for sake of satipatthana we say it is still > present helped make it clear that A Sujin is not alone in speaking > of nimitta in this way. ------ N: Yes, we discussed it also with Howard before. The term photo copy was used. The present object, it is still present although it has just fallen away. If you life, compare Nyanaponika studies about present, and also the Atthasaalini: many meanings to present. I have some in my Vis. studies. Perhasp then we can come closer to this dilemma of reality and concept? ---- Nina. #121007 From: "philip" Date: Sun Dec 4, 2011 9:23 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" philofillet Hi Nina > Shall we say: it depends on the moment? In Thai I > often hear the expression, it depends (lew te), and I feel at home > with this. Well, I don't kniw, Nina. The precision of Abhidhamma, which indicates the Buddha's unfathomable understanding, let's not let fears of Westerners being obsessively logical get in the way of appreciating that precision. I would rather be comfortable knowing A Sujin can be wrong on occasion than be comfortable being mai pen rai ( don't sweat it) about details. But I guess lew te isn't mai pen rai! On the other hand, tonight I was hearing A Sujin say that we have to get used of sound (for example) of being that which arises with the characteristic of not knowing anything (i.e rupa) so panna can get to know it better and better and deeper and deeper. I thought of tgat "getting used to" as "hanging out with/spending time with", gradually becoming familiar with, which must involve just letting thinking and sati, sati and thinking just be with it again and ahaing, countless moment, hands off, relaxed about any notion of precision. But a time for strict precision, strict ibsistence on details. When? Lew te! Phil #121008 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 12:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nimitta upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 12/3/2011 7:17:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, nichicon@... writes: dear Howard, All, chasing some bookish stuff on nimitta beginning with a Note in the back of Points of Controversy. peace, connie ------------------------------------------ HCW: Thanks for all the following, Connie, hard-to-follow though it may be. :-) One thing that I do find clear from the following is that the word 'nimitta', like many words, has a variety of (related) meanings, varying according to context. ------------------------------------------ ==== Note #8, on Nimitta / Pts of Controversy, pp387-388 (X.3, $4, p.246) Nimitta is derived by some from ni+maa, to limit; and is defined as 'that which limits its own fruit (effect)': attano phala.m niminaateeti {ee??c}(Abhidhaanappadiipikaa-suuci). According to this definition it denotes a causal factor, limiting, determining, conditioning, characterizing, etc., its own effect*. Hence anything entering into a causal relation, by which its effect is signified, marked, or characterized, is a nimitta. An object, image, or concept which, on being meditated upon, induces samaadhi (Jhaana) is a nimitta (see the states specified in Compendium, p.54). False opinion (di.t.thi) engendered by hallucination concerning impermanence -- in other words, a perverted view of things as permanent -- is a nimitta (ibid., p.217). This functions either as a *cause* of 'will-to-live,' or as a *sign* of worldliness. Emancipation from this nimitta is termed animittavimokkha (ibid., p.216). Again, sexual characteristics are comprised under four heads: linga, nimitta, aakappa, kutta, nimitta, standing for outward characteristics, male or female (Bud.Psy.Eth., $$633, 634). Later exegeses, deriving the word from the root mih, to pour out, are probably derivations d'occasion. Now in this argument (X.3) the opponent confuses the na nimitta[-gaahii] -- 'does not grasp at the general [or sex] characters of the object seen, heard, etc.' -- of the quotation with animitta, a synonym, like 'emptiness' (su~n~nataa) of Nibbaana. He judges that the Path-graduate, when he is not -nimitta-grasping, is grasping the a-nimitta or signless (Nibbaana), instead of exercising self-control in presence of alluring features in external objects, whether these be attractive human beings or what not. According to the Commentary the expression cited, 'does not grasp at, etc.,' refers 'not to the moment of visual or other sense-consciousness, but to the javana-kkha.na, or moment of apperception; hence even in the wordly course of things it is inconclusive.' This is made clearer in the following discourse (X.4), where ethical matters are stated to lie outside the range of sense-consciousness as such. ==== Controverted Points. X.3 That one may develop the Path while enjoying the fivefold cognitions of sense. X.4 That the five kinds of sense-consciousness are good and bad (have positive moral quality). (in Guide thru Abhi. pdf pp98-99, #99-101) ==== *n1: Cf. p.226, n1 VIII.9 - That physical actions [involved in bodily and vocal intimations] preceding from god or bad thoughts amount to a moral act of karma. (pp221-226 Pts. Contro.) {p96 Guide Abhi pdf, #82} p225-6: [38] And again: 'There are, bhikkhus, three modes of volitional acts of body, four modes of volitional acts of speech, and three modes of volitional acts of mind, all of which amount to immoral deeds, bringing forth ill and entailing it as a result. And there are a like number of modes of volitional acts of body, speech, and mind amounting to moral [karma], bringing forth and entailing happiness as result'. {1} {1} We cannot trace this passage (cf. Compendium, pp145-6). The Burmese translator adds a note: 'The Theravaadin takes kaaya, vacii, mano, when compounded with kamma, to denote merely a means (nimitta), and kamma by itself to denote volition (cetanaa). But the opponent takes each compound to mean a moral act (of deed, word, or thought).' Hereby we see how certain purely *un*moral actions involved in gestures and speech, proceeding from moral thoughts, came to be regarded as also moral. {skipping Compendium pp145-6}c. ==== Compendium, p54. The kasi.na-object selected and meditated upon is termed 'the mark for preparation' (parikamma-nimitta). When, after being contemplated, it is depicted to the imagination, the image, which is the exact copy of the original with all its original faults (kasi.na-dosa's), and is represented to the mind as a vivid reality, as if it were seen by the eye, is termed 'the mark for upholding.' {uggaha-nimitta} The concentration of thought practised on both these classes of nimitta's, percept and image, is termed 'preliminary concentration' {parikamma-samaadhi}; and we have seen that concentration is the power of individualizing (ekaggataa) developed by practice. By this preliminary concentration, the image, when it is turned into a concept (pa~n~natti), is divested of its reality and its faults, and becomes a sublimated copy, an abstract, yet still an individual. This conceptualized image, or after-image, which can no longer be depicted to sense or imagination as a concrete individual, is now termed 'mark-equivalent' (pa.tibhaaga nimitta). On the realization of this last class of nimitta, the five Hindrances to progress (niivara.naa) are inhibited, whereupon the preliminary develops into concentration, 'intermediate concentration' {upacaara-samaadhi}. We shall revert to the inhibition of the Hindrances when we come to deal with jhaana. == Compendium pp216-7. $9. Of Emancipation Here, the contemplation of No-Soul{2}, as letting go the firm belief in a soul{3}, is a channel of emancipation, called the 'contemplation of Emptiness.' Again, the contemplation of Impermanence, as letting go the sign of hallucination {4} [is a channel of emancipation], called the 'contemplation of the Signless,' and the contemplation of Ill, as letting go that 'hankering-after' which is craving, [is a channel of emancipation] called the 'contemplation of the "Not-Hankered-after"'. *skipping notes 2 & 3.c {4} Vipallaasa. There are three kinds of vipallaasa -- namely, sa~n~naa-vipallaasa (erroneous perception), citta-vipallaasa (erroneous ideas), and di.t.thi-vipallaasa (erroneous views), by which people regard impermanent things as permanent (anicce niccan ti). And these three vipallaasas are called nimitta, 'sign.' Hallucination is itself the 'sign.' Hence the Path receives three names according to the course taken by 'Insight leading to Emergence': -- namely, when that Insight discerns [things] as without soul, the Path is called 'Empty-release' {1}; when it discerns [things] as impermanent, the Path is called 'Signless-release': when it discerns things as evil, the Path is called 'Not-hankered-after-release.' The Fruit likewise receives these three names according to those three ways of coming into the Path along the avenues of the Path. However, in the process of attaining full fruition, it is only the means -- namely, insight by which respective 'fruits' arise to those exercising insight after the manner above described -- that gives the names, 'Empty-release,' etc. Nevertheless, the fact of the [common] object {2}, and of common essential properites, causes this triad of names to be applied equally to all everywhere. {3} So far for the section on emancipation. *{skipping notes for p.217}c ==== Bud. Psy. Ethics 633-4: itthindriya.m / fem. & purisindriya.m / masc. faculties. skipping all but some of n3/633: Literally the indriya.m -- the faculty, potentiality of the female. Under "appearance", which the Cy (321) rules to be here the import of linga.m (= sa.n.thaana.m, cf. Mil. 133-4), he indicates the physical proportions ...... Characteristics (nimitta.m) are that by which she is recognizable (sa~njaanana.m), both external bodily marks (snip) and modes of dressing. Under "occupation" (kutta.m = kiriyaa) there is an allusion to girls' distinctive amusements - (snip). Under "deportment", the "undemonstrativeness" (avisada.m) in women's walking ...(snip, etc)...snip, snip ... This "indriya" is discernible, not by the eye, but by the mind (mano). ==== ps. whatever 'apperception' means! ----------------------------------------------------- HCW: Webster gives the following: Definition of APPERCEPTION 1 : introspective self-consciousness 2 : mental perception; especially: the process of understanding something perceived in terms of previous experience ===================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #121009 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 12:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nimitta upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 12/3/2011 8:10:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Howard, H: "It seem to me that a nimitta is the sign or mark produced by sa~n~na when operating on an object of consciousness. This would be a sort of proto-concept, an elementary, sense-datum that is mind-produced from the object, and is akin the 'the percept' of Psychology." Scott: The problem here is that you are suggesting that nimitta and sa~n~naa are identical. --------------------------------------------- HCW: No, I am not. Sa~n~na is a mental operation whereas I am suggesting that nimittas might be products of the activity of sa~n~na. ----------------------------------------------- San~n~naa has characteristic and function of it's own, and that is marking etc. - and I know you do not agree with this - whereas nimitta seems to refer to something else altogether. -------------------------------------------- HCW: You know I don't agree with this? I consider exactly sa~n~na to be a marking and recognizing operation. -------------------------------------------- I don't equate Abhidhamma with 'Psychology' nor do think that mixing things is particularly helpful. -------------------------------------------- HCW: Abhidhamma is frequently referred to as Buddhist psychology, though I think it goes well beyond that. For example, Bhikkhu Bodhi, in his "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma The Abhidhammattha Sangaha of Acariya Anuruddha," writes that "The system that the Abhidhamma Pitaka articulates is simultaneously a philosophy, a psychology, and an ethics, all integrated into the framework of a program for liberation." In any case, I merely said the notion of "nimitta" is AKIN to the 'the percept' of psychology. I do think so. And I'm not "mixing things," but am trying to gain an understanding. (You can gain your understandings however you wish. ) ---------------------------------------------- The Dhamma is not like any modern stuff (although 'percept' is like 19th century psychology) and one can't mix apples and oranges. Scott. ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #121010 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 1:09 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Nimitta scottduncan2 Howard, HCW: "No, I am not. Sa~n~na is a mental operation whereas I am suggesting that nimittas might be products of the activity of sa~n~na." Scott: From the point of view where there are no actual demarcations based on the complete falling away of one moment of consciousness followed by the immediate arising of the next *completely different* moment of consciousness, and where dhammas are part of a flowing, changing 'process,' one might think as you do. You are merely inserting Paa.li words into a statement that reflects, as you indicate, a paraphrase of so-called 'modern' psychology wherein 'sa~n~naa' equals 'memory' and 'nimitta' are the 'contents of memory.' HCW: "You know I don't agree with this? I consider exactly sa~n~na to be a marking and recognizing operation." Scott: Unless you have revised your long-standing views about the insubstantial nature of things, then you are not going to agree with the way I have put it. Your notion differs greatly from a consideration of sa~n~naa as a *discrete mental factor* with it's *own characteristic and function* which *arises conascently with citta* and then *falls away completely with that same citta*. A 'marking and recognizing operation' is not at all the same as a dhamma - a cetasika. Here you present a flow of non-discrete processes. In any case, sa~n~naa, being a mental factor which takes an object, differs from 'nimitta' which, however it winds up being defined, is an object. HCW: "...In any case, I merely said the notion of 'nimitta' is AKIN to the 'the percept' of psychology. I do think so. And I'm not 'mixing things,' but am trying to gain an understanding..." Scott: And I merely do not agree with this supposition for the reasons I have outlined. Sa~n~naa does not have the characteristic of 'apperception,' it only marks. Scott. #121011 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 1:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nimitta nilovg Dear Connie and Howard, Op 4-dec-2011, om 14:20 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Connie: ps. whatever 'apperception' means! ------ N: Usually the javana-cittas in a process are in some translations called apperception. Nina. #121012 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 1:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nimitta upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - I'm slow to learn. I keep on making the mistake of thinking that we might converse in a non-combative manner. With metta, Howard In a message dated 12/4/2011 9:09:36 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Howard, HCW: "No, I am not. Sa~n~na is a mental operation whereas I am suggesting that nimittas might be products of the activity of sa~n~na." Scott: From the point of view where there are no actual demarcations based on the complete falling away of one moment of consciousness followed by the immediate arising of the next *completely different* moment of consciousness, and where dhammas are part of a flowing, changing 'process,' one might think as you do. You are merely inserting Paa.li words into a statement that reflects, as you indicate, a paraphrase of so-called 'modern' psychology wherein 'sa~n~naa' equals 'memory' and 'nimitta' are the 'contents of memory.' HCW: "You know I don't agree with this? I consider exactly sa~n~na to be a marking and recognizing operation." Scott: Unless you have revised your long-standing views about the insubstantial nature of things, then you are not going to agree with the way I have put it. Your notion differs greatly from a consideration of sa~n~naa as a *discrete mental factor* with it's *own characteristic and function* which *arises conascently with citta* and then *falls away completely with that same citta*. A 'marking and recognizing operation' is not at all the same as a dhamma - a cetasika. Here you present a flow of non-discrete processes. In any case, sa~n~naa, being a mental factor which takes an object, differs from 'nimitta' which, however it winds up being defined, is an object. HCW: "...In any case, I merely said the notion of 'nimitta' is AKIN to the 'the percept' of psychology. I do think so. And I'm not 'mixing things,' but am trying to gain an understanding..." Scott: And I merely do not agree with this supposition for the reasons I have outlined. Sa~n~naa does not have the characteristic of 'apperception,' it only marks. Scott. #121013 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 1:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" nilovg Dear Phil, Op 4-dec-2011, om 11:23 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > When? Lew te! ---- N: Very good. No doubts about the value of the precision of the abhidhamma. ---- Nina. #121014 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 1:45 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Nimitta scottduncan2 Howard, H: "I'm slow to learn. I keep on making the mistake of thinking that we might converse in a non-combative manner." Scott: Howard, I am 'remembering' your various arguments of the past. I am considering what you say now and suggesting that, unless your views have changed, we are not saying the same thing. I wasn't feeling 'combative' at all. I was merely disagreeing with you. Now, however, I *am* a bit annoyed with you (insert winky guy here), for this way of stepping out of a discussion. If you only want to make statements and don't wish to discuss them then say so. You haven't addressed any of the points I've raised. I think that they are all good and fair points. If I am incorrect you merely have to make further statements of clarification and show how, for example, 'a marking and recognizing operation' is the same as a discrete dhamma with it's own characteristic and function. If you now see things differently, say so and I will find my 'memory' of your view to change. Scott. #121015 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 2:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nimitta upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 12/4/2011 9:45:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Howard, H: "I'm slow to learn. I keep on making the mistake of thinking that we might converse in a non-combative manner." Scott: Howard, I am 'remembering' your various arguments of the past. I am considering what you say now and suggesting that, unless your views have changed, we are not saying the same thing. I wasn't feeling 'combative' at all. I was merely disagreeing with you. Now, however, I *am* a bit annoyed with you (insert winky guy here), for this way of stepping out of a discussion. If you only want to make statements and don't wish to discuss them then say so. You haven't addressed any of the points I've raised. I think that they are all good and fair points. If I am incorrect you merely have to make further statements of clarification and show how, for example, 'a marking and recognizing operation' is the same as a discrete dhamma with it's own characteristic and function. If you now see things differently, say so and I will find my 'memory' of your view to change. ------------------------------------------------ HCW: We disagree on the matter of discrete phenomena, also called "realities". What you consider to be separate realities I consider to be such only as a matter of convention. This disagreement between us with regard to alleged entities is a given. If this issue is to be brought into every conversation, then we have nothing to discuss. As for your not being combative, I view that otherwise. It seems to me that there is always a combative approach taken by you, and I have no interest in such conversations. Discussion is fine, but constant disputation holds no attraction for me. I never experience the feeling of combat with Sarah, Jon, Nina, and others whose perspectives very often differ from mine, but I always do with you. With them, I am eager to understand their position clearly, and I try to do so with the hope that I can learn from it and come to a degree of agreement with it. And frequently we do find common ground. My perspective on things has changed, and I have benefited, as a result of my conversations with them. I gain from my interactions with them, because these folks are not doctrinaire, though their opinions are strongly held, and because they consistently deal with me exhibiting genuine good will. I look forward to discussions with them, but I am uneasy whenever I receive a post from you, not because, as I suspect you think, of fear of my being challenged, but because of my being uncomfortable with unfriendliness, consistent battling, and what I see as your attitude that any disagreement with what you consider to be the truth is intolerable. I hope you understand that I'm trying to lay my cards on then table honestly and without anger. I'm explaining what I see as the problem between us, and that's all it is - an explanation. ------------------------------------------------- Scott. ================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #121016 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 2:44 am Subject: Re: A Dhamma books gift appreaciation szmicio Dear Chew (Nina) > Chew I got your books..... I was thinking about Survey of Paramattha Dhamma you send, this is one of the first editions? The point is language that is sometimes not 'smooth'. But that's fine to me. L: Actually language is very fine and smooth...I like that language..of some pre-edited Nina's books. The SoPD is one big reminder, of a great assistance and help to me. Best wishes Lukas #121017 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 2:58 am Subject: Re: Further Discussions in India, no 5. szmicio Dear Nina, > With regard to the first phase, she said that there should be the > firm intellectual understanding of the first noble Truth, and that > means understanding that there is dhamma at this moment, that > everything that appears is dhamma. I read in Samohavinodhani in the dukkha section about 4 Noble Truths, after manifold classification was given, that the 4 Noble Truths are: the state of occurence, cause of occurance, end of occurance and the way to the end of occurance. I liked that, especially the 1th Noble Truth, all occurences now are to be understood, all dhammas that appear now. This is more subtle than dukkha dukkha. This is: all conditioned dhammas are misery, dukkha. This reminds me Acharn's: 'Is there something or nothing now?' Each occurance, not only unpleasant, but all present moments now, are misery. We dont need to call it dhamma or anything else, the state of occurance now. When we are not asleep, there is something all the time. But ignorance is so deeply rooted. Best wishes Lukas #121018 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 3:13 am Subject: Re: 'Right concepts' epsteinrob Hi Scott and Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: Scott: > > =============== > > Otherwise, if you think that citta with pa~n~naa and concept of the Dhamma all arise at the same time, then fine. Sounds good to me. > > =============== > > J: That's how I understand it to happen. > > > =============== > If 'creates it's own object' is imprecise, I wouldn't mind hearing about it. I say it that way, by the way, because concepts are not realities, are time-freed and all that, and so 'created' by mind. > > =============== > > J: That's just how I would describe it also. If you can help me with this idea, I'd really appreciate it. I've never understood the idea that concepts/pannatti are "time-freed" and exist outside of the moment, created by the mind. Since the "mind" in any case, citta, arises in single-moment arisings, where does the concept "live" time-freed, while the moments still continue to come and go? It seems like that is positing a sort of mental ether that continues while cittas rise and fall, [even though they are created the pannatti,] and that would seem impossible. Could someone explain to me in what sense concepts are independent of this mechanism, and how that is even possible? Thanks, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #121019 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 3:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > There is a so called western approach, very logical, and people with > this approach fall immediately over what they call not logical. It is > with the emphasis on the ratio, they are rationalizing. That is > conditioned and to me it is O.K., I have no criticism. The approach I > learnt in Thailand is different, and this suits me personally. I am > not falling over the fact that someone says different things at > different times. Shall we say: it depends on the moment? In Thai I > often hear the expression, it depends (lew te), and I feel at home > with this. This is a really interesting point. If we don't even understand the basic mind-set of Dhamma in a cultural sense, it may really be difficult to grasp. I am very logically focused and if something is not consistent it drives me crazy, but what you say is good to think about. One time I was in Varanassi [Benares] in India looking for a room and all the rooms in this nice hotel were in flux as people were checking in and out, but there were currently no rooms available without a reservation. I checked in several times, and every time I asked the manager whether I could get a room, he would shake his head and say "It's possible." I said, "does that mean that you will have a room a little later?" and he would say "It's possible." "Does that mean you *don't* have a room right now?" and he would say "It's possible." He wouldn't say yes or no. I finally gave up and got a room down by the ghats right on the Ganges, very cheap and a little scary, with shared bathrooms and bars on the windows. It turned out to be great as we had some really neat activities on the river and were right there. But anyway, it made sense to the hotel proprietor to just leave the idea open as to whether there would be a room or not, whereas in the West we want to know whether the room is open or not, period. It's very absolute in a way. A similar situation took place in the negotiations between the Israelis and Palestinians some years ago. The Israelis wanted to work out every last possibility and what the agreement would be if x happened or if y happened, while the Palestinians wanted to leave it open -- sort of a wait and see attitude, and work it out when something comes up. That drove the Israelis crazy, who were basically Western in approach and wanted everything spelled out in advance. I wonder whether the Buddha, with all the specifics he did lay out, never the less expected certain things to just make sense "when you get there?" The Abhidhamma and commentary seem to be pretty "Western" in the sense that they have worked through so many details of how every condition and co-arising condition will create various results in the micro-moment, so it is an interesting question. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #121020 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 3:31 am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > > Op 4-dec-2011, om 5:39 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > Is there a place where pannati is discussed in a concise and > > systematic way? > ------ > N: You could try Suvey of Paramattha dhammas, which has a specific > section: concepts. When Lodewijk read that for the first time he said > that this should be inserted in each Dhamma book. Questions welcome, > you always have good remarks. Thank you, Nina. I am lucky to have the Survey and I will definitely take a look. This is a good opportunity for me to "read part of a book," which seems to be hard for me lately off-line. That will be good. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #121021 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 3:50 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" epsteinrob Hi Phil. > > I'll also add that having heard a very good teacher Sayadaw U > > Silananda (always hard to believe he had anything to do with the > > slow-mo fork lifters)... This remark is prejudiced and rude. You are not really in a position to judge Silananda or anyone else, are you? Why don't you focus on your own development - there's plenty of room for improvement. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #121022 From: Ken O Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 3:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' ashkenn2k Dear Rob E Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary, pg 105 <<52 ..... Because Nibbana and concepts do not perish, they cannot occur by way of past, etc, time and so are called free of time>> KC: Flower does not perish because it has no intrinsic qualities, flowers is a concept like a human being, think by the citta. However, it does not mean it cannot be used for development of panna. Flower, is recognised by sanna, what is a flower is cogn or think by citta, panna understand that flower is impermanent, or not self. We have to differentiate the different roles of the dhamma so that we could understand why concepts though not a paramatha can be helpful to the development of panna. The Dispeller of Delusion, pg 318, (vii) Reaching Absorption 1186. Also when he wards off outward distraction in this way he should bring it to mind as surmounting the concept in the way state above (para 1076). Leaving aside the concept head hairs, body hairs, mindfulness as "repulsive, repulsive" should be set up. But at first it does not appear as repulsive, and as long as it does not appear, so long should the concept not be left aside. When it appears, then leaving aside the concept, it should be brought to mind as repulsive. And when he brings to mind as replusive he should do so in the five ways according to the method sated above. Fro in the skin pentad there is obtained also the fivefold repulsiveness by way of colour, shape, smell, scope and place. As regards the rest, the bringing to mind should bexercise by means of whatever is obtained.>> cheers KC (aka Ken O) #121023 From: Ken O Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 4:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nimitta ashkenn2k Dear Connie  apperception in some books is a translation for javanas  KC >________________________________ >From: connie >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Sunday, 4 December 2011, 8:17 >Subject: [dsg] Re: Nimitta > > > >dear Howard, All, >chasing some bookish stuff on nimitta beginning with a Note in the back of Points of Controversy. >peace, >connie > >==== >Note #8, on Nimitta / Pts of Controversy, pp387-388 >(X.3, $4, p.246) >Nimitta is derived by some from ni+maa, to limit; and is defined as 'that which limits its own fruit (effect)': attano phala.m niminaateeti {ee??c}(Abhidhaanappadiipikaa-suuci). According to this definition it denotes a causal factor, limiting, determining, conditioning, characterizing, etc., its own effect*. Hence anything entering into a causal relation, by which its effect is signified, marked, or characterized, is a nimitta. An object, image, or concept which, on being meditated upon, induces samaadhi (Jhaana) is a nimitta (see the states specified in Compendium, p.54). False opinion (di.t.thi) engendered by hallucination concerning impermanence -- in other words, a perverted view of things as permanent -- is a nimitta (ibid., p.217). This functions either as a *cause* of 'will-to-live,' or as a *sign* of worldliness. Emancipation from this nimitta is termed animittavimokkha (ibid., p.216). Again, sexual characteristics are comprised under four heads: linga, nimitta, aakappa, kutta, nimitta, standing for outward characteristics, male or female (Bud.Psy.Eth., $$633, 634). >Later exegeses, deriving the word from the root mih, to pour out, are probably derivations d'occasion. >Now in this argument (X.3) the opponent confuses the na nimitta[-gaahii] -- 'does not grasp at the general [or sex] characters of the object seen, heard, etc.' -- of the quotation with animitta, a synonym, like 'emptiness' (su~n~nataa) of Nibbaana. He judges that the Path-graduate, when he is not -nimitta-grasping, is grasping the a-nimitta or signless (Nibbaana), instead of exercising self-control in presence of alluring features in external objects, whether these be attractive human beings or what not. >According to the Commentary the expression cited, 'does not grasp at, etc.,' refers 'not to the moment of visual or other sense-consciousness, but to the javana-kkha.na, or moment of apperception; hence even in the wordly course of things it is inconclusive.' This is made clearer in the following discourse (X.4), where ethical matters are stated to lie outside the range of sense-consciousness as such. >==== >Controverted Points. >X.3 That one may develop the Path while enjoying the fivefold cognitions of sense. >X.4 That the five kinds of sense-consciousness are good and bad (have positive moral quality). >(in Guide thru Abhi. pdf pp98-99, #99-101) >==== >*n1: Cf. p.226, n1 >VIII.9 - That physical actions [involved in bodily and vocal intimations] preceding from god or bad thoughts amount to a moral act of karma. (pp221-226 Pts. Contro.) {p96 Guide Abhi pdf, #82} >p225-6: [38] And again: 'There are, bhikkhus, three modes of volitional acts of body, four modes of volitional acts of speech, and three modes of volitional acts of mind, all of which amount to immoral deeds, bringing forth ill and entailing it as a result. And there are a like number of modes of volitional acts of body, speech, and mind amounting to moral [karma], bringing forth and entailing happiness as result'. {1} >{1} We cannot trace this passage (cf. Compendium, pp145-6). The Burmese translator adds a note: 'The Theravaadin takes kaaya, vacii, mano, when compounded with kamma, to denote merely a means (nimitta), and kamma by itself to denote volition (cetanaa). But the opponent takes each compound to mean a moral act (of deed, word, or thought).' Hereby we see how certain purely *un*moral actions involved in gestures and speech, proceeding from moral thoughts, came to be regarded as also moral. >{skipping Compendium pp145-6}c. >==== >Compendium, p54. >The kasi.na-object selected and meditated upon is termed 'the mark for preparation' (parikamma-nimitta). When, after being contemplated, it is depicted to the imagination, the image, which is the exact copy of the original with all its original faults (kasi.na-dosa's), and is represented to the mind as a vivid reality, as if it were seen by the eye, is termed 'the mark for upholding.' {uggaha-nimitta} >The concentration of thought practised on both these classes of nimitta's, percept and image, is termed 'preliminary concentration' {parikamma-samaadhi}; and we have seen that concentration is the power of individualizing (ekaggataa) developed by practice. >By this preliminary concentration, the image, when it is turned into a concept (pa~n~natti), is divested of its reality and its faults, and becomes a sublimated copy, an abstract, yet still an individual. This conceptualized image, or after-image, which can no longer be depicted to sense or imagination as a concrete individual, is now termed 'mark-equivalent' (pa.tibhaaga nimitta). >On the realization of this last class of nimitta, the five Hindrances to progress (niivara.naa) are inhibited, whereupon the preliminary develops into concentration, 'intermediate concentration' {upacaara-samaadhi}. We shall revert to the inhibition of the Hindrances when we come to deal with jhaana. > >== >Compendium pp216-7. >$9. Of Emancipation >Here, the contemplation of No-Soul{2}, as letting go the firm belief in a soul{3}, is a channel of emancipation, called the 'contemplation of Emptiness.' Again, the contemplation of Impermanence, as letting go the sign of hallucination {4} [is a channel of emancipation], called the 'contemplation of the Signless,' and the contemplation of Ill, as letting go that 'hankering-after' which is craving, [is a channel of emancipation] called the 'contemplation of the "Not-Hankered-after"'. >*skipping notes 2 & 3.c >{4} Vipallaasa. There are three kinds of vipallaasa -- namely, sa~n~naa-vipallaasa (erroneous perception), citta-vipallaasa (erroneous ideas), and di.t.thi-vipallaasa (erroneous views), by which people regard impermanent things as permanent (anicce niccan ti). And these three vipallaasas are called nimitta, 'sign.' Hallucination is itself the 'sign.' > >Hence the Path receives three names according to the course taken by 'Insight leading to Emergence': -- namely, when that Insight discerns [things] as without soul, the Path is called 'Empty-release' {1}; when it discerns [things] as impermanent, the Path is called 'Signless-release': when it discerns things as evil, the Path is called 'Not-hankered-after-release.' The Fruit likewise receives these three names according to those three ways of coming into the Path along the avenues of the Path. >However, in the process of attaining full fruition, it is only the means -- namely, insight by which respective 'fruits' arise to those exercising insight after the manner above described -- that gives the names, 'Empty-release,' etc. Nevertheless, the fact of the [common] object {2}, and of common essential properites, causes this triad of names to be applied equally to all everywhere. {3} >So far for the section on emancipation. >*{skipping notes for p.217}c >==== >Bud. Psy. Ethics 633-4: itthindriya.m / fem. & purisindriya.m / masc. faculties. >skipping all but some of n3/633: Literally the indriya.m -- the faculty, potentiality of the female. Under "appearance", which the Cy (321) rules to be here the import of linga.m (= sa.n.thaana.m, cf. Mil. 133-4), he indicates the physical proportions ...... Characteristics (nimitta.m) are that by which she is recognizable (sa~njaanana.m), both external bodily marks (snip) and modes of dressing. Under "occupation" (kutta.m = kiriyaa) there is an allusion to girls' distinctive amusements - (snip). Under "deportment", the "undemonstrativeness" (avisada.m) in women's walking ...(snip, etc)...snip, snip ... This "indriya" is discernible, not by the eye, but by the mind (mano). >==== > >ps. whatever 'apperception' means! > > > > > #121024 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 4:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" moellerdieter Hi Rob E., just between, you wrote: One time I was in Varanassi [Benares] in India looking for a room and all the rooms in this nice hotel were in flux as people were checking in and out, but there were currently no rooms available without a reservation. I checked in several times, and every time I asked the manager whether I could get a room, he would shake his head and say "It's possible." I said, "does that mean that you will have a room a little later?" and he would say "It's possible." "Does that mean you *don't* have a room right now?" and he would say "It's possible." He wouldn't say yes or no. I finally gave up and got a room down by the ghats right on the Ganges, very cheap and a little scary, with shared bathrooms and bars on the windows. It turned out to be great as we had some really neat activities on the river and were right there. But anyway, it made sense to the hotel proprietor to just leave the idea open as to whether there would be a room or not, whereas in the West we want to know whether the room is open or not, period. It's very absolute in a way. D: I suspect you missed the part the manager indicated by ' it's possible' , i.e. (in Thai ) 'lew te sin bon ' = depending on 'reward' , sometimes it is only the brutal truth.. ;-) with Metta Dieter #121025 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 5:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/4/2011 11:31:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: You could try Suvey of Paramattha dhammas, which has a specific section: concepts. ================================ Nina, I can't seem to find that. Please tell me the page. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #121026 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 5:10 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Nimitta scottduncan2 Howard, HCW: "We disagree on the matter of discrete phenomena, also called 'realities'. What you consider to be separate realities I consider to be such only as a matter of convention. This disagreement between us with regard to alleged entities is a given. If this issue is to be brought into every conversation, then we have nothing to discuss..." Scott: This latter remark above would be my point. Since this 'disagreement' on the rather pivotal 'matter of discrete phenomena' is a reflection of a fundamental view that *you* bring to any discussion you have with anyone, how others choose to ignore, or side-step, or otherwise interact with you *as if* this isn't always present and informing your comments has nothing to do with me. Your point was tersely addressed and countered by Nina as well - why no tirade there? Seriously, Howard. In the case of the actual content of the discussion, I simply fail to see how you can refer to sa~n~naa and a particular function attributed to a discrete mental factor ('marking') while meaning only to offer your own interpretive version in which you refer to a process akin to a simplistic memory storage schema, and one borrowed from late 19th century psychology to boot. You might as well suggest that 'modern' psychology has a better exlanation - or rather, that *you* do. If I don't buy the notion of 'realities = matter-of-convention' I'm certainly not going to discuss using language that is borrowed from an insubstantialist framework I don't adhere to in order simply to make as if I'm talking about oranges when I really mean apples. So what if I happen to remember your view each time I read you. It's just the way the memories are stored. Scott. #121027 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 5:14 am Subject: Re: 'Right concepts' scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "..Could someone explain to me in what sense concepts are independent of this mechanism, and how that is even possible?" Scott: Both concepts *and* Nibbaana are time-freed. Scott. #121028 From: Ken O Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 5:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" ashkenn2k Dear Scott > >Scott: This isn't clear. Do you mean: Nimitta are either concepts or they are 'signs' related to the actual dhamma that has just fallen away (and its characteristics)? KC: Nimitta can be concepts or can be a sign or language that describe the meaning of anything including dhamma. Just like anatta is a word, the meaning of anatta is not a nimitta. > >KC: "The understanding is to penetrate the meaning of the characteristics and not attending to the nimittas of characteristics. But without nimitta, we cannot know the characteristics of dhamma. Our understanding must start at nimitta until we can penetrate the meaning of dhamma directly." > >Scott: Is 'the meaning of characteristics' a reference to concepts? How do you differentiate 'nimitta' and 'concepts?' Or do you? Nina now seems to be suggesting that nimitta and pa~n~natti are identical. > >Nina, Jon, and Sarah have disagreed with you in various way in relation to your ideas about the place of concepts in satipa.t.thaana, but, frankly, it is all getting rather muddied on the list these days regarding this whole thing. KC: Nimitta whether it identical to pannatti does not matter. To mean the essence of learning dhamma is not to differentiate whethere it is a nimitta or it is concept, it does not help at all. And we have to start with nimitta or with concepts, like words in a our language in order to understanding the meaning of the specific charcteristics of dhamma or the three/general characteristics of dhamma I have explain in an email to Rob E on how concepts work in support for the development of panna. Nina, Jon and Sarah, or any other DSGers, have yet show me any text that mundane panna only arise with paramatha dhamma before the purification of views level. Or the mundane eight noble path only arise with paramatha dhamma because it has intrinsic value. Panna discriminate the meaning of objects that are cognize by the citta. It does not matter what object citta experience, as long as panna can either understand its specific characteristics or general characteristics, it is development of panna. Neither can they show me the text that satipatthana is only paramatha dhamma. while I can show that the text for my stand why concepts can be used or why concepts are part of satipatthana. Honestly, to me whether it is through concepts or through paramatha dhamma, it does not matter one follow which way, as long as it leads to liberation. To say, it is just only paramatha dhamma way before purification of views level, it is not in accordance to what Buddha has taught. I am not here to prove them wrong, I am here to explain dhamma is both ways to benefit those who practise using concepts and those who practise using paramatha dhamma . I used way there to represent what I want to say, because people will quote there is only one way from satipatthana, that is to mean another context. I have wrote this commentary notes before, let me share again. The Debates Commentary pg 41, 42 <> KC #121029 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 5:51 am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' scottduncan2 Howard, H: "...I can't seem to find that. Please tell me the page." Scott: Do you have the book? Try 'pages' and look at Part III, chapters 25, 26, and 27. It's marked 'Concepts' in the Table of Contents. Scott. #121030 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 6:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 12/4/2011 1:51:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Howard, H: "...I can't seem to find that. Please tell me the page." Scott: Do you have the book? Try 'pages' and look at Part III, chapters 25, 26, and 27. It's marked 'Concepts' in the Table of Contents. ------------------------------------------------ Thank you, Scott! I was looking at the PDF version online, and I just realized that part III is exactly missing! No wonder I couldn't find "Concepts"! Yes, I do have the book (kindly sent to me a while ago by Nina, and I see the entire part III! I will be rereading it. ------------------------------------------------- Scott. ================================ Thanks again, Scott. :-) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #121031 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 6:50 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" scottduncan2 KC, KC: "Nimitta can be concepts or can be a sign or language that describe the meaning of anything including dhamma. Just like anatta is a word, the meaning of anatta is not a nimitta." Scott: You seem to be saying that nimitta is everything. KC: "Nimitta whether it identical to pannatti does not matter. To mean the essence of learning dhamma is not to differentiate whether it is a nimitta or it is concept, it does not help at all. And we have to start with nimitta or with concepts, like words in our language in order to understanding the meaning of the specific charcteristics of dhamma or the three/general characteristics of dhamma ..." Scott: I can comment on this. I think it's a bit silly, on a list dedicated to discussing the Dhamma, to keep reading people to say that wanting to learn the meaning of this or that does not help when it comes to 'the essence of learning dhamma.' Why not just tell someone that they can leave list when they snatch the pebble from your hand? (Pop-cultural reference to a silly television show in the 70's known as 'Kung-Fu'.) Or why not just say, 'I don't really know the difference between these two things.' Scott. #121032 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 6:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" scottduncan2 Dear Nina, N: "...The present object, it is still present although it has just fallen away..." Scott: This version of nimitta suggests it to be 'closer to' a reality. Scott. #121033 From: "philip" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 6:55 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" philofillet Hi. Rob. E > > > I'll also add that having heard a very good teacher Sayadaw U > > > Silananda (always hard to believe he had anything to do with the > > > slow-mo fork lifters)... > > This remark is prejudiced and rude. You are not really in a position to judge Silananda or anyone else, are you? Why don't you focus on your own development - there's plenty of room for improvement. > > I. am wri.i i i ting. this. ve. ry. slo. o o o w ly. to. no o o o o te the ci. i. i i tta. pro. o o ce. e e s e e e s so. I. ca. not. f i i i i n ish. So. rry. Ph.i i i lul. #121034 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 7:20 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" scottduncan2 Dear Nina, N: "...I do appreciate Scott's questions and he is sincere in trying to find out about the truth. I shall try to go over them later on. There is a so called western approach, very logical, and people with this approach fall immediately over what they call not logical. It is with the emphasis on the ratio, they are rationalizing..." Scott: We are all 'western' in relation to the Dhamma (unless The Netherlands have been moved off the Continent to the far east - ha ha, and hopefully on higher ground). I'm quite comfortable with the paradox and the unknown inherent in the Dhamma. I have no problem, for example, with the fact that there is no such thing as a deliberate practice. I don't think wanting to clarify what is 'nimitta' and what is 'concept' is so 'western' or so 'rational' - distinctions between dhammas are painstakingly drawn out in the Abhidhamma and the Commentaries all the time. I don't care about 'ratios' or whatever either. I'm just discussing terms on a discussion list. Scott. #121035 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 7:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" scottduncan2 Phil, "I. am wri.i i i ting. this. ve. ry. slo. o o o w ly. to. no o o o o te the ci. i. i i tta. pro. o o ce. e e s e e e s so. I. ca. not. f i i i i n ish. So. rry. Ph.i i i lul." Scott: I laughed and laughed. I got into a huge pile o' trouble with the slow-mo's a few years back for suggesting the practice made absolutely no sense whatsoever. Don't worry though, if you run, they won't be able to catch you. Scott. #121036 From: "philip" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 7:28 am Subject: Seeing philofillet Hi all A nice explanation of the basic conditions for seeing from Nina's book on Cetasikas. > Seeing arises, no matter we like it or not, because there are conditions > for its arising. Visible object conditions seeing by being its object. If > there were no object, seeing could not arise. > > Seeing is also conditioned by eyesense which is its physical base, a kind > of rúpa produced by kamma. If kamma does not produce eyesense there cannot > be seeing. Seeing is vipĺkacitta, the result of kamma. There is seeing of > pleasant objects and of unpleasant objects and nobody can cause the > experience of objects to be pleasant. > Contact, phassa, is another condition for seeing. Contact is a cetasika > which arises with each citta and it "contacts" the object so that citta > can experience it. If there were no contact there could not be seeing. > > There is no self who sees and can control the seeing; it is only a > conditioned nĺma which arises for a moment and then falls away. #121037 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 7:30 am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' epsteinrob Hi Ken O. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Rob E > > Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary, pg 105 > <<52 ..... Because Nibbana and concepts do not perish, they cannot occur by way of past, etc, time and so are called free of time>> > > KC: Flower does not perish because it has no intrinsic qualities, flowers is a concept like a human being, think by the citta. I do understand, in the usual way, that a concept is immutable to time in the sense that it is an abstraction and not a particular case. So we may call to mind the idea that something is a "flower" and this idea of "flower" does not change over time, but is called upon as an immutable construct. However, what I am talking about is whether concept is *really* immutable to time, rather than only so on a conceptual level. When citta arises, it still only arises for one moment, so the moment in which it entertains a concept is still only one moment at a time. So in reality, the concept too is only entertained one moment at a time, and has to be re-engaged by successive cittas in order to be entertained for more than one moment. In that sense, the concept is being brought up one moment at a time, and even though that concept is not changeable as an idea, it is changing and dying out as an arising thought. It is not as if some cittas are hanging around for more than a moment to grant the concept is continuity and immutability. As far as citta is concerned, it has to engage the concept over and over again to maintain it. I guess the real distinction is that pannatti are constructed of thought only. They do not occur by natural arising, and that is a distinction I can understand. But I think it is dangerous to think that it really is hanging around outside of time, because it really does not. Citta may invent concept, but it does so on a momentary basis, like everything else. Even nibbana is engaged by successive cittas if it is engaged for more than one moment, so I think there are some more distinctions to be addressed here about how pannatti is actually engaged and what role it plays when it is "brought up" by citta. from: Reaching Absorption: > ...But at first it does not appear as repulsive, and as long as it does not appear, so long should the concept not be left aside. When it appears, then leaving aside the concept, it should be brought to mind as repulsive. ... This is a good quote, and an important point, that both pannati and nimitta, under the right circumstances of correct understanding, can stand in for direct discernment as a placeholder, and help to bridge the gap between one level of understanding and another, if I understand the point correctly... Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = #121038 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 7:33 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" epsteinrob Hi Dieter. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > Hi Rob E., > > just between, you wrote: > > One time I was in Varanassi [Benares] in India looking for a room and all the rooms in this nice hotel were in flux as people were checking in and out, but there were currently no rooms available without a reservation. I checked in several times, and every time I asked the manager whether I could get a room, he would shake his head and say "It's possible." I said, "does that mean that you will have a room a little later?" and he would say "It's possible." "Does that mean you *don't* have a room right now?" and he would say "It's possible." He wouldn't say yes or no. I finally gave up and got a room down by the ghats right on the Ganges, very cheap and a little scary, with shared bathrooms and bars on the windows. It turned out to be great as we had some really neat activities on the river and were right there. But anyway, it made sense to the hotel proprietor to just leave the idea open as to whether there would be a room or not, whereas in the West we want to know whether the room is open or not, period. It's very absolute in a way. > > D: I suspect you missed the part the manager indicated by ' it's possible' , i.e. (in Thai ) 'lew te sin bon ' = depending on 'reward' , > sometimes it is only the brutal truth.. ;-) Ah...as my memory goes back I do not recall if I offered the manager any payment for the reservation. It is possible that I did, but you do make a point. Anyway, I will say to your interpretation for now, "it's possible," and leave it at that. :-) Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #121039 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 7:36 am Subject: Re: 'Right concepts' epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., > > R: "..Could someone explain to me in what sense concepts are independent of this mechanism, and how that is even possible?" > > Scott: Both concepts *and* Nibbaana are time-freed. I understand that as a bald fact, but your statement of such does not answer my question of how that takes place, or how it is possible. What does "time-freed" mean for a citta that is arising for a single moment and then is instantly replaced for another? The arising cittas are still the ones that entertain or invent the pannati, so it is actually falling away with the citta and then being reinvented again by the next one. How is that "time-freed?" It seems to me that the idea that concept is time-freed is itself a concept, and does not reflect the mechanism by which pannatti are actually entertained by citta. Does pannatti continue to exist in some etheric realm while cittas happily arise and fall, immutable to such activity? That would make them actual eternal entities, and I don't think anyone wants to suggest that there is a world of ideas that really exists and does not fall away when citta falls away. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = #121040 From: "philip" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 7:37 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" philofillet Hi Scott > Scott: I laughed and laughed. I got into a huge pile o' trouble with the slow-mo's a few years back for suggesting the practice made absolutely no sense whatsoever. Don't worry though, if you run, they won't be able to catch you. I remember that. The cockroaches. I probably scolded you too, not because I was a meditator but because it was so rude!!!!! Anyways cults deserve ridicule . Any group that makes a practice out of listening to the recorded voice of a teacher is umm...ah... Phil #121041 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 7:38 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Hi. Rob. E > > > > > I'll also add that having heard a very good teacher Sayadaw U > > > > Silananda (always hard to believe he had anything to do with the > > > > slow-mo fork lifters)... > > > > This remark is prejudiced and rude. You are not really in a position to judge Silananda or anyone else, are you? Why don't you focus on your own development - there's plenty of room for improvement. > > > > I. am wri.i i i ting. this. ve. ry. slo. o o o w ly. to. no o o o o te the ci. i. i i tta. pro. o o ce. e e s e e e s so. I. ca. not. f i i i i n ish. So. rry. > > Ph.i i i lul. Ha ha. If you get around to noting your own akusala citta processes at some point, be sure to let me know. At any speed, that will have more value than your disparaging remarks and your false sense of superiority. Enjoy it while it lasts. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #121042 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 7:40 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Phil, > > "I. am wri.i i i ting. this. ve. ry. slo. o o o w ly. to. no o o o o te the ci. i. i i tta. pro. o o ce. e e s e e e s so. I. ca. not. f i i i i n ish. So. rry. > > Ph.i i i lul." > > Scott: I laughed and laughed. I got into a huge pile o' trouble with the slow-mo's a few years back for suggesting the practice made absolutely no sense whatsoever. Don't worry though, if you run, they won't be able to catch you. Yeah, right. You guys are a laugh riot. I guess making fun of practices you don't understand is an expression of the higher Dhamma. Who knew? Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #121043 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 8:40 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "...You guys are a laugh riot...making fun of practices you don't understand..." Scott: Is this your practice? This slow-mo stuff makes no sense from a Dhamma perspective. It reflects no understanding of the Dhamma. I *do* think it is nonsense. Scott. #121044 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 8:45 am Subject: Re: 'Right concepts' scottduncan2 Rob E., Me: "Both concepts *and* Nibbaana are time-freed." R: "I understand that as a bald fact..." Scott: Okay, then say how. Otherwise you do not understand. Scott. #121045 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 8:45 am Subject: Contentment is the Highest Treasure! bhikkhu5 Friends: Contentment is the most supreme Treasure! The Blessed Buddha often noted contentment as the highest treasure: There is the case where a Bhikkhu is quite content with whatever old robe, quite content with whatever old alms-food, quite content with whatever hut, and quite content with whatever bitter medicine for curing sickness. This Dhamma is for one, who is content, not for one who is discontent! Thus was it said. And with reference to exactly this salient contentment with whatever little one has, was this simple, serene modesty well spoken... AN VIII 30 Contentment with whatever little one has! How is a Bhikkhu content? Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden, even so is he content with a single set of robes to protect his body and begged alms-food to pacify his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only these few simple necessities as robes, belt, bowl and razor along with him. This is how a Bhikkhu is content... DN 2 There is the case where a Bhikkhu is content with whatever old robe at all, with whatever old alms-food at all, with whatever old hut at all. He speaks in praise of being content with any old requisite at all. He does not, for the sake of any requisite, do anything unsuitable or inappropriate. When not getting any requisites, he is not troubled. When getting requisites, he just uses it without being attached to it. He is not obsessed, but blameless, & seeing the drawbacks and dangers of possessions, he realizes the escape from them. He does not, on account of his contentment with any old requisite at all, exalt himself or disparage others. Thus is he modest, clever, energetic, alert, & acutely aware! This, Bhikkhus, is called a Bhikkhu standing quite firm in the ancient, original lineage of the Noble Ones (Ariyavamsa )... AN IV 28 See also: About Forest Monks: http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Wheels/wh083.pdf Good are friends, when need arises. Good is contentment with just what one has. Good is merit done well, when life is at the end. Good is the elimination of all Suffering! Dhammapada 331 Solitude is happiness for one who is content, Who has heard and clearly understands The Dhamma. Harmlessness is happiness in all worlds! Harmlessness held towards all breathing beings. Udana 10 Therefore be capable, upright, and straight, easy to instruct, gentle, and not proud, content and easy to support with little, with few duties, living simply and lightly, with peaceful abilities, mastering all, modest, and with no greed for support. Do not do even a minor thing that the wise and noble would later criticize. Sutta Nipâta I, 8 More on Contentment (santutthi) , which is caused by rejoicing mutual <...> Rejoicing_Bliss_is_Mudita Contentment Causes Calm Cool Comfort! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #121046 From: "connie" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 9:05 am Subject: Re: 'Right concepts' nichiconn dear Rob E, > > It seems to me that the idea that concept is time-freed is itself a concept, and does not reflect the mechanism by which pannatti are actually entertained by citta. Does pannatti continue to exist in some etheric realm while cittas happily arise and fall, immutable to such activity? That would make them actual eternal entities, and I don't think anyone wants to suggest that there is a world of ideas that really exists and does not fall away when citta falls away. > Wouldn't it have to be part of the function of sa~n~na? Recognition of the previously made 'marks' - 'concepts' being a type of 'marker'. Calling memory an etheric realm might be a little much, but it has a certain appeal. I think if you wanted to get into the 'mechanics' of it, it would turn into a study of 'conditions' - relations and 'forces'. Well, what doesn't?! connie #121047 From: "philip" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 10:11 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" philofillet Hi Rob E > Ha ha. If you get around to noting your own akusala citta processes at some point, be sure to let me know. At any speed, that will have more value than your disparaging remarks and your false sense of superiority. Enjoy it while it lasts. ph: Telling someone to mind their own cittas/business is oxymoronical. Let's see you do it, you haven't shown ability there so far. Me neither.We are what we are. accumulared tendencies change very, very slowly. See the adze handle simile. Thinking you can change others' behaviour let alone your own indicates a lack of understanding of Dhamma, the essence of which is anatta. I note akusala smug sense of superiority alternating with kusala right understanding. No, I don't, it's just speculating about what cetasikas seem likely to be involved. Phil #121048 From: "philip" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 10:39 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" philofillet Hi again > > ph: Thinking you can change others' behaviour let alone your own indicates a lack of understanding of Dhamma, the essence of which is anatta. Correction. The "let alone" should be the other way around. Thinking we can change our own behaviour is deluded but thinking we can change others' shows even less understanding. Nah. It's all just one big mess of moha. Phil #121049 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 11:05 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., > > R: "...You guys are a laugh riot...making fun of practices you don't understand..." > > Scott: Is this your practice? This slow-mo stuff makes no sense from a Dhamma perspective. It reflects no understanding of the Dhamma. I *do* think it is nonsense. Sure, I guess you have a right to think it's nonsense. It's quite another thing -- in my view -- to make fun of very advanced respected practitioners when, despite your opinion, you have no idea what the practice actually yields. One thing about practice is that it is not wholly theoretical. A lot of practices are developed because of their practical import and through trial and error, based on a sound principal but then exploring and developing it. The fact that you are from a different school and don't think that theoretically such practices are backed up says very little about what they are or about what you actually know about them. I think it's better to treat other Buddhists with respect and just say that you do not consider it a wise practice, but don't be attached to your own view, or think that reputable people are disreputable because you don't agree with them. It shows a real sort of callousness and arrogance when you feel good about running around putting respected Buddhists and respected practices down and only honor those of your own school. I have engaged in this sort of practice once or twice on retreat or elsewhere, and found it valuable in actual practice when I did it. It would likely not be worthwhile to try to tell you why I considered it a positive practice, because you would most likely rule any such procedure out of hand. And no, it's not my regular form of practice, but I don't have the same automatic prejudice against it that you do. Many Buddhist teachers have talked about the efficacy of observing various actions and sensations -- rupas of walking and noticing walking, etc., or eating, as it allows them to be broken down into finer actions. Such meditations are practiced throughout the monastic world. You don't agree with any kind of meditation so why should you like this one? But it's not ridiculous and for anyone who doesn't share your view that no one can do anything to develop awareness such practices make a lot of sense. Similar practices are treated with respect in ancient texts as well, such as the description of refined concentration exercises in the Visudhimagga, so I don't think that you and Phil -- however great you may think your wisdom is -- should really judge such things out of hand, or those who practice them. Imagine Phil going ha ha ha and laughing his head off at the revered Silananda because he's associated with a practice that Master Phil disapproves of. Maybe Silananda knows something that Phil doesn't know. U. Silananda was a celebrated Burmese monk who was certainly no stranger to Abhidhamma. He was an advanced Pali scholar at the age of 27, and that's by Burmese standards, and was wise enough to be appointed one of the editors of the Tipitaka and Commentaries at the Sixth Buddhist Council in Rangoon! Yet, Phil is so wise and knowledgeable about what is wise practice and is not, that he can jeer and criticize this venerable scholar for associating with practices that Phil thinks are really weird and stupid. I think the extent of arrogance and self-congratulatory behavior that is sometimes associated with the precious knowledge of the "dhammas-only" school here on dsg by Junior Masters is so extreme that it could not be associated with a good hamburger joint, let alone the Noble Buddhist Path to enlightenment. It is shameful. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = #121050 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 11:10 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > ph: Telling someone to mind their own cittas/business is oxymoronical. Let's see you do it, you haven't shown ability there so far. Me neither.We are what we are. accumulared tendencies change very, very slowly. See the adze handle simile. Thinking you can change others' behaviour let alone your own indicates a lack of understanding of Dhamma, the essence of which is anatta. > > I note akusala smug sense of superiority alternating with kusala right understanding. No, I don't, it's just speculating about what cetasikas seem likely to be involved. I am not telling you to mind your own business; I am asking you not to put others down who have different practices from yours. What you think is your business, but how you express it in public is open for a response. The fact that accumulations are not under one's control is not an excuse to act that way, and shouldn't be used that way. I don't think you should keep criticizing people who meditate, especially those whose knowledge and experience of Dhamma is much greater than yours - and of course I don't mean me, though I don't appreciate it either. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #121051 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 11:15 am Subject: Re: 'Right concepts' epsteinrob Hi Connie. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > dear Rob E, > > > > > It seems to me that the idea that concept is time-freed is itself a concept, and does not reflect the mechanism by which pannatti are actually entertained by citta. Does pannatti continue to exist in some etheric realm while cittas happily arise and fall, immutable to such activity? That would make them actual eternal entities, and I don't think anyone wants to suggest that there is a world of ideas that really exists and does not fall away when citta falls away. > > > > Wouldn't it have to be part of the function of sa~n~na? Recognition of the previously made 'marks' - 'concepts' being a type of 'marker'. Calling memory an etheric realm might be a little much, but it has a certain appeal. > > I think if you wanted to get into the 'mechanics' of it, it would turn into a study of 'conditions' - relations and 'forces'. Well, what doesn't?! I'm just sort of starting from scratch to see if I can make any sense out of the "timelessness" of pannati. I think that's more a metaphor than an actuality and just trying to see what they really are. Everyone seems to be confused about their reality in one way or another after all these years. I agree with you that the continuity of the pannatti would have to be marked in some way and then passed on to a next citta to recognize the same concept again as it is contemplated, but that does not make it "out of time" but just gives it a different sort of nature in the way that consciousness experiences it. If citta relates to pannatti as if it were an object and fails to see that it has no characteristic and isn't really doing anything but creating an illusion within thought, that makes sense to me. But to say it is "timeless" doesn't make any sense to me that I can get a grasp of at the moment. If I make it over to K. Sujin's Survey, subject to conditions, I will see what it says and report back... Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #121052 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 11:19 am Subject: Re: 'Right concepts' epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., > > Me: "Both concepts *and* Nibbaana are time-freed." > > R: "I understand that as a bald fact..." > > Scott: Okay, then say how. Otherwise you do not understand. That was a precursor to what I was saying and was not the point. Would you try something useful from time to time? All I meant by it as a "bald fact" was that I get the assertion that since it is not a rising and falling actual dhamma that it does not have the same sort of temporal reality that a rising and falling dhamma does. It doesn't follow those laws where a rupa would last for x moments and would be attended by citta in a definite manner. But what I am saying is that despite this, citta that attend pannatti still arise and fall so there is no real "timelessness" about the pannatti. It isn't self-existent like a rupa, which rises whether a citta attends it or not, because it is a product of citta. It has to be reconstructed afresh for each next citta. Now if you want to actually talk about how pannatti work would you please respond to *this,* and not give me a stupid quiz about a word or a phrase that is part of a sentence. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #121053 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 11:21 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > ph: Thinking you can change others' behaviour let alone your own indicates a lack of understanding of Dhamma, the essence of which is anatta. > > Correction. The "let alone" should be the other way around. Thinking we can change our own behaviour is deluded but thinking we can change others' shows even less understanding. Nah. It's all just one big mess of moha. I do think your behavior can be changed Phil, and I don't really care how it takes place. Anatta is not an excuse for acting boorishly, and if you think that it is then you do not understand Dhamma either. Every time you jeer and make fun of other Buddhists you are creating akusala kamma patha on the level of speech. Just being aware of that may change your behavior. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = #121055 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 12:02 pm Subject: no-control makes practice possible. truth_aerator Hello Phil, RobertE, all, Of course things can be changed. To speak otherwise is to fall into extreme wrong view of nihilism which the Buddha had something to say about. If it is cold, one can put warmer clothes on. If it is hot, one can dress up lighter. If one is hungry or thirsty, one can eat or drink and hunger/thirst will pass. Etc . Of course one cannot control through mere wish and thought - "let the body be warmer or colder!", "let my body not experience hunger or thirst!". One goes and deals with them through appropriate actions. Same with other things. One can't merely wish "let my mind be Awakened", mere wish is not the cause. Training the mind is. Precisely because of conditionality, the mind can be trained. What you do and the causes which are set, do affect the mind later on. Only if there was no conditionality at all, only then nothing could be done because nothing could condition/cause anything. With best wishes, Alex #121056 From: "philip" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 12:21 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" philofillet Hi Rob E > > I do think your behavior can be changed Phil, and I don't really care how it takes place. Anatta is not an excuse for acting boorishly, and if you think that it is then you do not understand Dhamma either. Ph: Behaviour changes, that is true and if you believe you can change it by exercising self-rooted desire for change, you can change it for awhile. If that will is strong enough you might change it through your whole life. But that's not the end of the story, as you know. No panna, no ganna. > Every time you jeer and make fun of other Buddhists you are creating akusala kamma patha on the level of speech. Just being aware of that may change your behavior. > > Ph: I'm aware of it right now and I don't care. I'm enjoying it. If right understanding and other kusala factors arise re the drawbacks of wrong speech, there will be conditions for it stopping at that moment. Thinking you can provide those conditions for others shows a lack of understanding of how kusala develops. Final word to you. Phil #121057 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 12:21 pm Subject: Re: 'Right concepts' scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "...Would you try something useful from time to time?" Scott: This is the last time I'll respond to you when you include nonsense like this. Just discuss, Rob. R; "...what I am saying is that despite this, citta that attend pannatti still arise and fall so there is no real 'timelessness' about the pannatti..." Scott: Nibbaana is time-freed yet it is the most excellent object of citta that exists. It does not fall away. Citta is a reality. It has objects. Pa~n~natti is an object of citta. Citta arises and falls away. Pan~n~natti does not. Both pa~n~natti and Nibbaana are time-freed. Scott. #121058 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 12:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "Sure, I guess you have a right to think it's nonsense..." Scott: Thanks. I skimmed the rest. You are welcome to your opinions as well. Scott. #121059 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 12:27 pm Subject: Re: 'Right concepts' epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > R; "...what I am saying is that despite this, citta that attend pannatti still arise and fall so there is no real 'timelessness' about the pannatti..." > > Scott: Nibbaana is time-freed yet it is the most excellent object of citta that exists. It does not fall away. Citta is a reality. It has objects. Pa~n~natti is an object of citta. Citta arises and falls away. Pan~n~natti does not. Both pa~n~natti and Nibbaana are time-freed. Nibbana exists independent of citta; pannatti do not. How do pannatti continue to exist when they are not object of citta, inbetween the rise and fall of the cittas that create them? Nibbana is not created by citta, which is why it can remain a time-freed object not subject to citta's rise and fall; pannatti are dependent on citta. While rupa arises and falls away, it is not dependent on citta either, so it can remain in existence longer than a single citta. This is not true of pannatti. Do you disagree, and if so, how do you think pannatti continue to exist between cittas? Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #121060 From: "philip" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 12:27 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" philofillet Hi again all Don't look up ganna. That no panna no ganna was just a bad pun on no pain no gain. Phil #121061 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 1:01 pm Subject: Re: 'Right concepts' scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "Nibbana exists independent of citta; pannatti do not..." Scott: Nibbaana is a paramattha dhamma; pa~n~natti are not. R: "...how do you think pannatti continue to exist between cittas?" Scott: They don't. Citta arises and falls away. Pa~n~natti are time-freed. There is no 'in-between.' That is for the Mahayanists. Scott. #121062 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 1:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Scott) - In a message dated 12/4/2011 3:36:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., > > R: "..Could someone explain to me in what sense concepts are independent of this mechanism, and how that is even possible?" > > Scott: Both concepts *and* Nibbaana are time-freed. I understand that as a bald fact, but your statement of such does not answer my question of how that takes place, or how it is possible. What does "time-freed" mean for a citta that is arising for a single moment and then is instantly replaced for another? The arising cittas are still the ones that entertain or invent the pannati, so it is actually falling away with the citta and then being reinvented again by the next one. How is that "time-freed?" It seems to me that the idea that concept is time-freed is itself a concept, and does not reflect the mechanism by which pannatti are actually entertained by citta. Does pannatti continue to exist in some etheric realm while cittas happily arise and fall, immutable to such activity? That would make them actual eternal entities, and I don't think anyone wants to suggest that there is a world of ideas that really exists and does not fall away when citta falls away. Best, Rob E. ================================ I don't think there actually are things that are the so-called concepts. There is thinking, but no concepts. There is thinking-of-my-car, thinking-of-the-DSG, and so on and so forth. Concepts neither arise nor cease, for there are no concepts. There's only thinking. Actually, it is really wrong usage to say anything along the lines of "Concepts are X" except when X = "imagined". When engaged in thinking-of-my-car, there is a basis for that thinking, namely a huge number of sights, sounds, odors, and bodily sensations that serve as the basis; but there is no single phenomenon that is what I call "my car". With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #121063 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 5:04 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Nina, > > N: "...The present object, it is still present although it has > just fallen away..." > > Scott: This version of nimitta suggests it to be 'closer to' a reality. I think the nimitta becomes more "accurate" and closer to the real rise and fall of dhammas as panna develops to higher levels. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #121064 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 5:22 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > Every time you jeer and make fun of other Buddhists you are creating akusala kamma patha on the level of speech. Just being aware of that may change your behavior. > > > > > Ph: I'm aware of it right now and I don't care. I'm enjoying it. Well alright then, have a good time. And thanks for letting me know that was your final word to me. I'll take note of that. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #121065 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 5:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., > > R: "Sure, I guess you have a right to think it's nonsense..." > > Scott: Thanks. I skimmed the rest. You are welcome to your opinions as well. > > Scott. Bye Scott. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - #121066 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 5:28 pm Subject: Re: 'Right concepts' epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., > > R: "Nibbana exists independent of citta; pannatti do not..." > > Scott: Nibbaana is a paramattha dhamma; pa~n~natti are not. > > R: "...how do you think pannatti continue to exist between cittas?" > > Scott: They don't. Citta arises and falls away. Pa~n~natti are time-freed. There is no 'in-between.' That is for the Mahayanists. Repeating things does not help to explain them. What does time-freed mean? Citta arises and falls away, as you say. And what does the pannatti do when citta falls away? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - #121067 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 5:31 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > I don't think there actually are things that are the so-called > concepts. There is thinking, but no concepts. There is thinking-of-my-car, > thinking-of-the-DSG, and so on and so forth. Concepts neither arise nor cease, for > there are no concepts. There's only thinking. Actually, it is really wrong > usage to say anything along the lines of "Concepts are X" except when X = > "imagined". > When engaged in thinking-of-my-car, there is a basis for that > thinking, namely a huge number of sights, sounds, odors, and bodily sensations that > serve as the basis; but there is no single phenomenon that is what I call > "my car". Would you say that such thinking takes place over the course of many mind-moments? Do you agree that such thinking is "time-freed" as is being asserted in this thread? Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #121068 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 5:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Further Discussions in India, no 5. nilovg Dear Lukas, I like your remarks. Arising is dukkha, so long as there us the arising of naama and ruupa we are in the cycle and this means dukkha. Nina. Op 4-dec-2011, om 16:58 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > This is: all conditioned dhammas are misery, dukkha. This reminds > me Acharn's: 'Is there something or nothing now?' Each occurance, > not only unpleasant, but all present moments now, are misery. We > dont need to call it dhamma or anything else, the state of > occurance now. When we are not asleep, there is something all the > time. But ignorance is so deeply rooted. #121069 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 5:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" nilovg Dear Rob E, What a delightful story in Varaanasi. Op 4-dec-2011, om 17:27 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > This is a really interesting point. If we don't even understand the > basic mind-set of Dhamma in a cultural sense, it may really be > difficult to grasp. I am very logically focused and if something is > not consistent it drives me crazy, but what you say is good to > think about. > > One time I was in Varanassi [Benares] in India looking for a room > and all the rooms in this nice hotel were in flux as people were > checking in and out, but there were currently no rooms available > without a reservation. I checked in several times, and every time I > asked the manager whether I could get a room, he would shake his > head and say "It's possible." ------- N: When they shake their heads in India it means yes! I see this in my imagination, just delightful. In Japan, when you ask a question and they say no, it may mean yes, ask Phil. It depends on the point de depart. Another example, we quoted Kh S: there should be sati each moment, and later on: there cannot be sati of satipa.t.thaana all the time. Here she wanted to point to other levels of sati, sati arising with all kinds of kusala. So, we have to be careful when we quote Kh S, it depends in which context she points out something. -------- > R: The Abhidhamma and commentary seem to be pretty "Western" in > the sense that they have worked through so many details of how > every condition and co-arising condition will create various > results in the micro-moment, so it is an interesting question. ------ N: Yes, but now we have to consider the application, how we apply it in the situation of life. Just now! Always the connection with life. Never theoretical. Nina. #121070 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 6:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' nilovg Hi Howard, Survey p. 248, Part III, Ch 25. Nina. Op 4-dec-2011, om 19:02 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > You could try Suvey of Paramattha dhammas, which has a specific > section: concepts. > ================================ > Nina, I can't seem to find that. Please tell me the page. #121071 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 7:23 pm Subject: Re: A sotappan cant kill becuase he knows there are no beings. sarahprocter... Dear Rob K, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > >S: She was also stressing how a sotapanna cannot kill because of the understanding of namas and rupas as not self. How can there be killing if there are no beings in reality. A sotapanna has no idea of killing - only kamma can condition the last moment of life, the vipaka citta. > >++++++\ > Dear Sarh and Phil > of course a sotapanna can still have sex even though he knows there are no beings. ... S: I'm not sure I follow the connection/relevance. Eradication of wrong view (including ideas of killing) does not mean eradication of sensuous attachment. I remember we had a discussion about the 'bomber' and killing before. Again I was stressing only kamma as the cause of death. Perhaps it's relevant? Metta Sarah ==== #121072 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 7:26 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" sarahprocter... Hi Rob E & Phil, A very funny exchange - when I read it, it was my first laugh for a few days! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Ph: <.....> So I think you are free from that trap. No 40 day retreats for you, I bet! Hallelulah, there is still hope for detachment. There is some good reason Scott keeps dialoguing with you, your mind is still open (wide open and flying all over the place, like mine!) Carry on. > >R: Well I hate to get applause for being a lousy meditator - only on dsg! I don't agree that regular meditation leads to some kind of wrong-view hypnosis, but as you say - carry on! :-) .... S: Applause!! Metta Sarah ==== #121073 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 7:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 5-dec-2011, om 1:15 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > But to say it is "timeless" doesn't make any sense to me that I > can get a grasp of at the moment. ------ N: A concept is timeless, akalika,: it means it does not have past, present future, it does not arise and fall away like the conditioned paramattha dhammas of citta, cetasika and ruupa. ------ Nina. #121074 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 7:41 pm Subject: Re: cdl - grief sarahprocter... Dear Connie & Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > thought about you the other day when I was reading some of the Sutta Nipata; Jarasutta: < People grieve from selfishness, perpetual cares kill them, this (world) is full of disappointment; seeing this, let one not live in a house. > .... S: "People grieve from selfishness" - we cannot be reminded enough. "perpetual cares kill them, this (world) is full of disappointment"; 'seeing this, let one not live in a house" of attachment now! When I visited the hospital today, my friend's daughter was very dejected and wasn't attempting to speak to her mother. I'm trying to encourage the family, but it's difficult when they don't perceive any daily progress in the condition and don't appreciate the importance of stimulation or efforts to communicate. I think everyone's tired and one sister is causing difficulties, so not easy for the husband at all. So when I left, I was also grieving somewhat and rather weighed down with the "cares" , but can at least appreciate it's just 'this moment' - the care, the worry, the attachment, the thinking now that's the problem. Kusala is light and peaceful and never weighs down with the 'perpetual cares". Thx for the good reminders. Metta Sarah p.s Nina & all, my friend is being moved out of ICU into another room or hospital in the next couple of days, so at least she's no longer being considered as in critical condition and she looked better to me. ========= #121075 From: "philip" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 7:49 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" philofillet Hi Rob E > > And thanks for letting me know that was your final word to me. I'll take note of that. I meant in this current exchange about wrong speech, which is not a concern for me, it happens so rarely ( except here, not that "speech" at DSG doesn't matter.) As hiri and otappa develop there will be a defeat of the wrong idea that there can be places where it ok to behave badly. But for now all the insistence by various people on sweet speech makes me feel contrary. That may or may not change sooner or later, no way to know. But it can be a lesson to niceness seekers out there that your efforts can be counter-productive. Let it be. Phil #121076 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 7:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Knowing nama from rupa (transcript, India 2005, Bodhgaya, pt.1) sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Ph: .... We must now nama as nama before we can know characteristics of this or that nama. Of course we can read about or discuss the characteristics of this or that cetasika. .... S: But what is the characteristic of 'this or that nama' if not the cetasika or citta appearing now? In other words, there can be no understanding the nature of nama or rupa without beginning to 'study' and understand the dhammas that appear now. ... > > "Abhidjamma is not in the book" are your familiar words. But I am not sure about thus. Sometines I think we are too eager to move beyond the understanding of dhammas which must still be theoretical. There are 19 cetasikas with every kusala moment. Until there has been vipasanna-nana that knows nama from rupa, how > could there possibly be distinguishing them in daily life except by self thinking about it and lobha wanting it? .... S: If it is 'self thinking about it and lobha wanting it', then it's not any understanding of any kind. Now, however, there is lobha appearing, visible object, dosa, feeling, other dhammas - 'not in the book', but appearing in daily life at this moment. There can be understanding and awareness right now which begins to understand such dhammas as dhammas, such namas as namas, such rupas as rupas. Without the gradual developement of such understanding, there will never be any vipassana nanas. Is there doubt, thinking, wrong view now? These are dhammas that can be known when they appear now too. ... >If we allow Abhidhamma to stay in the book on this topic (i.e study and discuss as theory) isn't that better? Seeing, visible object, here to be studied now, not in the book. .... S: The only Abhidhamma that's of any real value is the direct understanding of the dhammas we've read/heard about so much at this very moment. Metta Sarah ==== #121077 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 7:51 pm Subject: Re: Looks like Buddhism sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > KH: Oh, how nice, worry beads! Just what I wanted, but not very much! > > > S: My point was just that when it's all about "what I wanted, what I want" now, then that's the reality to be known - lobha or dosa or moha now. > --------- > > KH: Yes, sorry, I knew that. I was just prattling. In the old days I used to leave my messages in a drafts folder for a while, read them back, and edit out the prattle. I'm too smart for that now, unfortunately. :-) .... S: I knew you knew, but we write for the 'big, wide, world' here:-) Glad you're too smart to hang on to your drafts blanket/folder now.... Prattle On! metta Sarah ====== #121078 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 8:05 pm Subject: Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" sarahprocter... Dear Scott, Jon & Howard, Rob K , Alex & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > J: "I notice that the verse is the same as that quoted by RobK from the Vism (the reference for that, btw, is Ch. XVII, 115)." > > Scott: Yes. Note: > > "The endless chain of aggregates, > Of elements, of bases too..." > > Scott: Compared to: > > "...'The unbroken line of organs, elements, > And aggregates..." > > Scott: I'd been looking into the Paa.li to find out what on earth 'organs' was a translation of. > > "...''Khandhaana~nca pa.tipaa.ti, dhaatuaayatanaana ca;..." > > Scott: It's 'ayatanaa' so 'bases' so much clearer that 'organs.' I see that 'unbroken line' and 'endless chain' seems to be 'pa.tipaa.ti.' .... Sarah: a good quote. Buddhadatta gives "pa.tipaaṭi : [f.] the order; succession", so it becomes the (endless) succession of khandhas, dhatus etc..... Again, I understand the khandhas as referring to each of the different conditioned dhammas. Again from the Vism XVII 115 under D.O.: "When he is confused about the round of rebirths, instead of taking the round of rebirths as pictured thus: 'The endless chain of aggregates, Of elements, of bases too, That carries on unbrokenly Is what is called 'the round of births', 'he figures that is is a lasting being that goes from this world to another world, that comes from another world to this world. 'When he is confused about the characteristics of formations, instead of apprehending their specific and general characteristics, he figures that formations are self, belong to a self, are lasting, pleasant, beautiful." S: The next part is good too, starting with: "When he is confused about dependently-arisen states, instead of taking the occurrence of formations to be due to ignorance, etc., he figures that it is a self that knows or does not know, that acts and causes action, that appears in rebirth-linking.......etc" Thanks for sharing, Metta Sarah ==== #121079 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 8:30 pm Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Uddhacca /Restlessness sarahprocter... Dear Dieter & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > My most favored sutta source for restlessness is S.N. XII ,61 (trl. TB) > "The instructed disciple of the noble ones, [however,] attends carefully & appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising..." which describes our usual 'monkey mind' state . Similar like a cattle who keeps looking for the even more greenish meadow . > > The mind is easily bored (unpleasant feeling) and always attracted what we do not yet have , so it is rather comprehensible that restlessness is only fully abolished at arahant level. 'Grabs a branch , letting go of it , it grabs another branch ' ...., isn't it a beautiful simile for the mind 's business of wandering from one association to another ? > > Temporarily however , as it is said, the state can avoided by ' attending carefully & appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising..." , which I assume needs inner balance before , i.e. according to instruction, trying to achieve peace within by calming body and mind ( by paying attention to the breathing , see beginning of the Maha Satipatthana Sutta) . .... S: As the commentary to the sutta above makes clear, it is the grabbing of the different branches with attachment that is the problem. Cittas will always arise and fall away experiencing different objects even without attachment. So it is the wise attention, the understanding and awareness when cittas arise and fall away in rapid succession that is being encouraged, not any 'slowing down' or 'focussing' that is being stressed: Note 157: "Spk: By day and by night (rattiyaa ca divasassa ca): This is a genitive in the locative sense, i.e. during the night and during the day. Arises as one thing and ceases as another (a~n~nadeva uppajjati, a~n~na.m nirujjhati): The meaning is that (the mind) that arises and ceases during the day is other than (the mind) that arises and ceases during the night. The statement should not be taken to mean that one thing arises and something altogether different, which had not arisen, ceases. 'Day and night' is said by way of continuity, taking a continuity of lesser duration that the previous one (i.e., the one stated for the body). But one citta is not able to endure for a whole day or a whole night. Even in the time of a fingersnap man hundred thousand of ko.tis of cittas arise and cease (1 ko.ti=10 million). The simile of the monkey should be understood thus: The 'grove of objects' is like the forest grove. The mind arising in the grove of objects is like the monkey wandering in the forest grove. The mind's taking hold of an object is like the monkey grabbing hold of a branch. Just as the monkey, roaming through the forest, leaves behind one branch and grabs hold of another, so the mind, roaming through the grove of objects, arises sometimes grasping hold of a visible object, sometimes a sound, sometimes the past, sometimes the present or the future, sometimes an internal object, sometimes an external object. When the monkey does not find a (new) branch but does not descend and sit on the ground but sits holding a single leafy branch. So too, when the mind is roaming through the grove of objects, it cannot be said that it arises without holding to an object; rather, it arises holding to an object of a single kind." ..... S: The kind of peace and serenity as referred to in wiki such as during prayer, yoga, tai chi or stress avoidance or wold peace for that matter has nothing to do with the development of passaddhi, calm, or overcoming of restlessness, uddhacca. As we know, passaddhi arises with all and only wholesome consciousness (and the kiriya cittas of the arahats) and the latter with all and only unwholesome consciousness. Thanks for the other good quotes. I liked this very much: > â€" SN 46:51 > > B. Denourishing of Restlessness and Remorse > > There is quietude of mind; frequently giving wise attention to it â€" that is the denourishing of the arising of restlessness and remorse that have not yet arisen, and of the increase and strengthening of restlessness and remorse that have already arisen. > > â€" SN 46:51 > > Six things are conducive to the abandonment of restlessness and remorse: > > 1. Knowledge of the Buddhist scriptures (Doctrine and Discipline); > > 2. Asking questions about them; > > 3. Familiarity with the Vinaya (the Code of Monastic Discipline, and for lay followers, with the principles of moral conduct); > > 4. Association with those mature in age and experience, who possess dignity, restraint and calm; > > 5. Noble friendship; > > 6. Suitable conversation. <...> > â€" SN 46:53 > > C. Simile > > If there is water in a pot, stirred by the wind, agitated, swaying and producing waves, a man with a normal faculty of sight could not properly recognize and see the image of his own face. In the same way, when one's mind is possessed by restlessness and remorse, overpowered by restlessness and remorse, one cannot properly see the escape from restlessness and remorse that have arisen; then one does not properly understand one's own welfare, nor that of another, nor that of both; and also texts memorized a long time ago do not come into one's mind, not to speak of those not memorized. > > â€" SN 46:55 ..... S: When the mind is overwhelmed by lobha, by other kilesa, lost in the signs and details, the concepts being attended to, the mind is "possessed by restlessness" - no understanding of what is for anyone's welfare at such times, no wise attention at all. thanks for all the good reminders, Dieter Metta Sarah ===== #121080 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 8:43 pm Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: >> S: Yes, dosa conditioned by tanha - Sorrow, lamentation, mental pain, despair, association with the dislike, separation from the liked, not getting what one wants - dosa! (Not sure what you mean by the 'tanha of rejection'). > > D: (I repeated our exchange , because the details are important ..) > dosa is not conditioned by tanha but is one of the 3fold aspects of tanha in a broad meaning of rejection . .... S: I wouldn't say that dosa is an "aspect of tanha". it is conditioned by tanha. No tanha, no dosa. There are two initial causes of the cycle given in the texts - ignorance and attachment. .... > D: the problem as I see it , happens when the clinging to the emotion (tanha) of unpleasant feelings last for a longer time , then we face a depression, which may become a quite serious ailment. ..... S: Usually it is aversion to the arisen unpleasant feelings and attachment to unarisen pleasant feelings that leads to more unpleasant feelings, more depression, more grief about our loss, our unhappiness and so on. What we think about with unpleasant feeling leads to more of the same. At such times, we think the grief and unhappiness is the problem, but really it's the attachment to ourselves, to our pleasant feelings that is the problem. Ignorance at the root of it all, as you say. .... > > S: one needs to It takes a lot of courage to follow the path and be honest and truthful to the present realities, doesn't it? > *** > Dhp, Verse 212. > "Piyato jaayatii soko, > piyato jaayatii bhaya.m, > Piyato vippamuttassa > natthi soko kuto bhaya.m." > > "Affection begets sorrow, > affection begets fear. > For him who is free from affection > there is no sorrow; how can there be fear for him?" > **** > > D: for him who is free .. (has followed the path..realized disentchantment, dispassion, detachment ..) we are still confronted to cope with the heavy feelings .. > with comfort possible by compassion : it is not only me to which such event happened ( to contemplate 'that hardly any house can't be found in which not a beloved one has died' ) .... S: Yes, 'hardly any house......'. Most helpful of all is the understanding now of such dhammas, including pleasant and unpleasant feeling, as anatta. Now, if it's seeing or hearing that appears, then these are the dhammas to be known. Remember Bhaddekeratta Sutta in MN, (transl by Nanamoli/Bodhi): "Let not a person revive the past or on the future build his hopes; For the past has been left behind And the future has not been reached. Instead with insight let him see Each presently arisen state" ... > > As quoted before by Connie:'Old Age, book 4, Sn': <...> > Greedy people > get stuck with > sorrow, lamentation, > meanness. > The wise forget about > owning things, > wander about > in peace." > > From: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/Sutta-nipataBM6.pdf > **** > Please let me know how this sounds. It's an important topic for everyone. > > > D: 'Greedy ' sounds (too) tough here , .... S: Yes, we could just say something like 'out of attachment'.... .... >but the conclusion is the same as above : the wise has developed equanimity due to disentchantment..with regard to feelings . > It is a bit penetrant to repeat , but don' t we need to work where we are , not where we like to be? .... S: Good point - "where we are" - "Instead with insight let him see Each presently arisen state" In other words, it always comes down to the reality now - the present dhamma - not yours or mind - just a conditioned dhamma. A good and important discussion for us all, thx Dieter. Metta Sarah ==== #121081 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 8:52 pm Subject: Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Scott: In subtle ways there *may not* be 'consensus.' Parsing out 'intellectual understanding' and considering it alone is definitely wrong. I'd like an explanation as to how pa~n~naa, supposedly at the 'level of pariyatti' takes concept as object. ... Sarah: I read all the quotes you helpfully gave in #120913 from Sujin, Sukin, Nina and myself. I agreed with them all and didn't find any lack of 'consensus' in these examples! Like now, if there's wise considering of 'pariyatti' or 'pa~n~naa' or 'visible object' now, it's pariyatti, wise considering of such objects. As stressed, of course, multiple mind-door processes are involved whilst thinking of 'visible object' as it appears now. When there's thinking and wondering and doubt about those processes, then awareness and understanding can arise instantly and know such dhammas as doubt too. Understanding the present dhammas is more precious than 'working out the story' of such dhammas. Metta Sarah === #121082 From: "philip" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 8:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Knowing nama from rupa (transcript, India 2005, Bodhgaya, pt.1) philofillet Hi Sarah > > Ph: .... We must now nama as nama before we can know characteristics of this or that nama. Of course we can read about or discuss the characteristics of this or that cetasika. > .... > S: But what is the characteristic of 'this or that nama' if not the cetasika or citta appearing now? In other words, there can be no understanding the nature of nama or rupa without beginning to 'study' and understand the dhammas that appear now. Ph: I think what I was talking about here was knowing nama as nama which I hear a lot about and makes sense to me. Seeing and visible object, visible object and other rupa as the dhamma with the characteristic of not knowing anything at all, nama (vinnana, I guess, and supporting universals) that just knows. I don't know how long it will last, but there is not much interest in the characteristics of cetasikas such as lobha, dosa, mana, etc, all those familiar ones from daily life that we throw around, because there is confidence that understanding will develop at the sense door. Yes, awareness of lobha/dosa that arise from seeing, hearing etc, but my interest seems to be in sense door processes these days, that is where the studying will take place, sorting out cetasikas seems to me to be nothing but speculation right now. You know, that is not new, in a sense, SN 35 has always been the only section of the whole suttanta that really grabbed my interest. Well, I am just rambling. Not much to say on this now, Sarah. I am a bit talked out, I want to study the Vism rupa thing, the Expositor, Dhammasangini if I splurge on it for a Christmas present, I probably will, Expositor alone is confusing, though there are lots of fascinating passages. I came across another good topic on the topic of knowing nama from rupa first, will transcribe it now. Phil #121083 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 8:57 pm Subject: No seeing without door arising first (was Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > I note that "door" I put in title is not synonymous with the "base" that A. Sujin refers to in the talk. Bhikkhu Bodhi note from CMA, p.144: "A base is not identical with a door, since it plays a different role in the origination of consciousness. A door is a channel through which the cittas and cetasikas of a cognitive process gain access to the object; a base is a physical support for the occurence of cittas and cetasikas." ... S: Right - dvara (door) and vatthu (base). In the case of seeing consciousness, hearing etc, the door and base (eye-door) are the same. For all the other cittas in the eye-door process, the door is the eye-door, but the base is actually the heart-base, the 'origin' or 'physical support' of those cittas. In the case of the mind-door cittas, the door is the last bhavanga citta before those cittas arise, whilst for all these cittas the base is the heart-base again. A difficult topic. metta Sarah ====== #121084 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 8:59 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > En bref, rather than knowing the characteristic of dosa, knowing the characteristic of nama that experiences. But perhaps knowing the characteristic of dosa, who knows? ... S: Nama must be a dhamma, such as dosa. No knowing of nama without knowing the experiencing dhamma that appears now. Metta Sarah ===== #121085 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 9:09 pm Subject: Re: Further Discussions in India, no 5. szmicio Dear Nina, > I like your remarks. Arising is dukkha, so long as there us the > arising of naama and ruupa we are in the cycle and this means dukkha. L: Also whatever arises is dukkha. Whatever arises is bound to cease. This is the truth, dukkhasacca. Respectively whatever arises has its cause, it's with cause, not without cause. This refers to dukkhasamuddaya sacca. We live in a world of sankhara dhamma, conditioned dhamma. We need to understand more and more, learn in our daily lifes that all that happens now is conditioned, it has its own conditions to arise. We live in a world of misery, not knowing that all is conditioned, nothing to be done, to be changed, just understand. This is sacca nana. Best wishes Lukas #121086 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 9:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma and this moment, just like now! sarahprocter... Dear Ann, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "glenjohnann" wrote: > Thank you for letting us know about your visit to the hospital. Very good that you are feeling over your cold and have been able to "face", as you say, whatever you found there, both in terms of Sharon's progress and her family. No doubt you were of great assistance. It is wonderful that you were able to show Sharon's daughter how you could talk with her, holding her hand and communicating through touch and voice. .... S: Today was not so easy and I'm not sure my example was appreciated by the family and I was asked to leave the daughter alone to be 'silent with her mother'. Difficult for everyone and we all just do our best at the time - 'whatever comes', whatever dhammas arise now - let sati welcome them! So many stories, but that's all they are..... We can offer kindness, assistance, but cannot help any past kamma. .... >We never know what she was able to receive even though there was no visible reaction. It was perhaps of some comfort to Sharon and certainly would have been to her family. Sounds as if there has been progress in her condition - it takes a while for channels to open up again. .... S: I'll keep doing my best, that's all! ... > > Do take care of yourself. You too have been through a great shock. Yes, even that is "just like now" when it comes down to it. .... S: Thx and yes, "just like now". I think that the best care of 'oneself' is by giving up the idea of a 'oneself' - just passing dhammas to be known. When there's kusala, such as at moments of understanding or caring for others, that is the best 'care'! Metta Sarah ===== #121087 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 9:16 pm Subject: Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" sarahprocter... HI Phil (& Rob E), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Sarah, you see, it happens. When people are fighting, posting a lot of stuff about metta probably doesn't help, it just irritated me at the time and felt like a kind of manipulation of Dhamma, to tell the truth! .... S: yes, but the list is not just about "Phil". It may not be helpful to you at the time, but may be to others - that's why she share here and not individually off-list! Like the recordings which just made you mad a year or so ago but which nonetheless were so helpful later - we never know when such reminders (that's if you read them) may be helpful. Even if they never are, if they are given with good intentions, that's all that can be done. The rest depends on past accumulations and kamma. ... > > Moments of true friendliness happen, and are noted and appreciated in a subtle way at the time, and that conditions more of the same in the future. But there is mostly lobha for it at the time, and that conditions more of the same too, and therefore all the dosa when the friendliness breaks down, as it does and will again! > > No control over that. It's fascinating! .... S: Yes, a potpourri of different accumulations...... All anatta as you say. Metta Sarah ===== #121088 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 9:18 pm Subject: Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" sarahprocter... Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > R: "...you still don't explain how hearing Dhamma, wise reflection, etc., leads to direct understanding. The initial experience of Dhamma is conceptual, it is not direct when reading or thinking about it." > > Scott: I don't know how it does. It just does. And not by thinking. ... .... Sarah: Wise reflection is thinking, surely?. Metta Sarah ===== #121089 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 9:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma and this moment sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: >>S: We never know when it'll be our last discussion with anyone. it's a reminder, to me, to reach out and help when and where we can. > >R: Yes, that is a good reminder, very important to remember at all times. When I realize all the things I do and worry about based on an illusion of permanence, it really seems ridiculous when you remind yourself that this life is very frail and short. I've been noticing that lately and at the moment that it is realized, it really changes your perspective. .... S: Yes. I think we don't realise how very deep-rooted the illusion of permanence is. We think that we don't have ideas about anything lasting, but is there an illusion of things lasting for an instant, such as the book or the computer? Until the idea of atta, of some 'thing' is eradicated, there must be ideas of permanence. .... > > I'm glad to hear about the nice visit that you had beforehand. That is good to know. ... S: Thx for your kind words. Metta Sarah ===== #121090 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 9:33 pm Subject: Re: kamma and this moment, just like now! szmicio Dear Sarah, Ann, I dont know this topic, but I read that someone is in hospital...and about helping. Without understanding 4 Noble Truths this is impossible to help anyone. Also there cannot be compassion, karuna. Not understanding for Noble Truths, is a reason to compassion. No other reason. All the rest meaningless. Best wishes Lukas > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "glenjohnann" wrote: > > > Thank you for letting us know about your visit to the hospital. Very good that you are feeling over your cold and have been able to "face", as you say, whatever you found there, both in terms of Sharon's progress and her family. No doubt you were of great assistance. It is wonderful that you were able to show Sharon's daughter how you could talk with her, holding her hand and communicating through touch and voice. > .... > S: Today was not so easy and I'm not sure my example was appreciated by the family and I was asked to leave the daughter alone to be 'silent with her mother'. Difficult for everyone and we all just do our best at the time - 'whatever comes', whatever dhammas arise now - let sati welcome them! So many stories, but that's all they are..... > > We can offer kindness, assistance, but cannot help any past kamma. > .... > >We never know what she was able to receive even though there was no visible reaction. It was perhaps of some comfort to Sharon and certainly would have been to her family. Sounds as if there has been progress in her condition - it takes a while for channels to open up again. > .... > S: I'll keep doing my best, that's all! > ... > > > > Do take care of yourself. You too have been through a great shock. Yes, even that is "just like now" when it comes down to it. > .... > S: Thx and yes, "just like now". I think that the best care of 'oneself' is by giving up the idea of a 'oneself' - just passing dhammas to be known. When there's kusala, such as at moments of understanding or caring for others, that is the best 'care'! > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > #121091 From: "philip" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 9:33 pm Subject: More on knowing nama as nama, rupa as rupa (transcript 6/6/06, pt.1) philofillet Hi all More on this topic: Q: Why is there so much emphasis on knowing nama from rupa before there can be knowing kusala from akusala. (paraphrase) A.S: Can we understand nama and rupa right now in order to know better whether this moment is kusala or akusala? We just know by reading or hearing what is kusala moment and what is akusala moment. That is intellectual understanding. But this very moment, we think about kusala and akusala, it's only thinking, but not the understanding of any reality right now, at all. Nama and rupa arises and falls away so fast, before there can be the understanding of a characteristic. So when awareness arises, it *is* aware, and it begins to develop the understanding of that characteristic, no word, but the characteristic itself indicates that it's what, like rupa is rupa, hardness is hardness, and the experiencing is not hardness, by beginning to understand this little by little then one day there is no idea of self because of the understanding of reality but since awareness rises and falls away so fast, before it can know about the goodness or the badness of that reality which is nama, because it is not "I" any more, it is that which does not have shape or form or color or any rupa at all, so in order to become used to that characteristic as just that element that can experience, and now it is experiencing, but what citta is there, it's gone already, before one can become used to the characteristic of nama and rupa, one begins to attend to the characteristic of nama as nama, and rupa as rupa. That's why the panna of sotapanna is different from sakadagami's panna or anagami's panna because the hiri otappa grows too. Now it seems like we don't know about hiri and otappa, at the moment of studying or understanding, but without it there is not this moment at all, see, it's there. But when becomes sotapanna the hiri otappa sees the akusala clearer and better in order to eliminate all these coarse akusala. #121092 From: "philip" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 9:39 pm Subject: No seeing without door arising first (was Re: Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. philofillet Hi Sarah > S: Right - dvara (door) and vatthu (base). Thanks for the clear explanation. Phil #121093 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 11:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" rjkjp1 Yes Rob , that is how I see it too. BTW could you see a little the funny side of Scott's "I a.m wr.t.ing sl..lo.ly".. joke? robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Scott. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > > > Dear Nina, > > > > N: "...The present object, it is still present although it has > > just fallen away..." > > > > Scott: This version of nimitta suggests it to be 'closer to' a reality. > > I think the nimitta becomes more "accurate" and closer to the real rise and fall of dhammas as panna develops to higher levels. > > Best, > Rob E. > > = = = = = = = = = = > #121094 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 11:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 12/5/2011 1:31:28 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > I don't think there actually are things that are the so-called > concepts. There is thinking, but no concepts. There is thinking-of-my-car, > thinking-of-the-DSG, and so on and so forth. Concepts neither arise nor cease, for > there are no concepts. There's only thinking. Actually, it is really wrong > usage to say anything along the lines of "Concepts are X" except when X = > "imagined". > When engaged in thinking-of-my-car, there is a basis for that > thinking, namely a huge number of sights, sounds, odors, and bodily sensations that > serve as the basis; but there is no single phenomenon that is what I call > "my car". Would you say that such thinking takes place over the course of many mind-moments? ---------------------------------------------- HCW: Yes, of course I would. I'm familiar with thinking! :P ------------------------------------------------ Do you agree that such thinking is "time-freed" as is being asserted in this thread? ------------------------------------------ HCW: It's not being asserted that thinking is. Thinking is temporal. (I believe that those who believe that there are things that are concepts and yet at some level realize that they "different" from other objects speak in that fashion.) --------------------------------------------- Best, Rob E. ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #121095 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 5, 2011 11:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/5/2011 2:05:00 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Survey p. 248, Part III, Ch 25. Nina. ------------------------------------------------ Thanks, Nina. Yes, thanks. Scott was kind enough to let me know this also. It turns out that, as opposed to the hard copy you had sent me of that work Khun Sujin's, the PDF version I was looking at was missing Part III!! =============================== With metta, Howard Op 4-dec-2011, om 19:02 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > You could try Suvey of Paramattha dhammas, which has a specific > section: concepts. > ================================ > Nina, I can't seem to find that. Please tell me the page. #121096 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 12:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' upasaka_howard Hi again, Nina - In a message dated 12/5/2011 7:57:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes strangely: Thanks, Nina. Yes, thanks. =============================== I meant to write "Yes, thanks Nina." With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #121097 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 12:29 am Subject: Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" scottduncan2 Sarah, Sarah: "Wise reflection is thinking, surely?." Scott: Is it? Just thinking? 'Thinking' is so often disparaged - 'just thinking.' Is this 'yoniso manasikaara?' I've been given to understand recently that it's thinking *with pa~n~naa* and that's how concepts can be objects of pa~n~naa. Am I missing something? Scott. #121098 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 12:34 am Subject: Another trim reminder! dsgmods Hi All, Just the usual reminder- When replying to another post, please remember to trim any part of the other post that is not necessary for your reply. If the post you are replying to is a recent one, you may assume that other members will have seen it. Trimming saves time and work for those who kindly back up the archives and makes it more convenient for all of us to read posts. It also assists those who print out messages, have limited bandwidth or receive messages in digest form. We appreciate your co-operation. Jon and Sarah PS The full guidelines can be found in the files section. Comments or questions off-list only. Thanks #121099 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 12:39 am Subject: Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, S: "...Like now, if there's wise considering of 'pariyatti' or 'pa~n~naa' or 'visible object' now, it's pariyatti, wise considering of such objects. As stressed, of course, multiple mind-door processes are involved whilst thinking of 'visible object' as it appears now...." Scott: As I've asked, so this is 'yoniso manasikaara' but what of pa~n~naa with concepts as objects? Is it the intermittent presence of pa~n~naa during 'yoniso manasikaara' that makes it pariyatti? S: "...Understanding the present dhammas is more precious than 'working out the story' of such dhammas." Scott: Again, yes to this sort of statement. You seem to say it here at the end as if to say that what I am considering on the list should be dropped because it is inferior to 'understanding the present dhammas' - that I'm just 'working out the story.' Is this meant to suggest that considering this stuff as I am, you know, clarifying the role of pa~n~naa in pariyatti and whatnot, is a waste of time? Somehow 'wrong' of me? It has been suggested that pa~n~naa can take concept as object when thinking about the Dhamma. We suggest that one's way of thinking about the Dhamma is some sort of inferior 'working out the story?' Scott. #121100 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 12:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" scottduncan2 Dear Rob K., R: "BTW could you see a little the funny side of Scott's 'I a.m wr.t.ing sl..lo.ly'.. joke?" Scott: Credit to Phil. And it was hilarious. Scott. #121101 From: "philip" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 12:44 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" philofillet Hi Sarah > S: Nama must be a dhamma, such as dosa. No knowing of nama without knowing the experiencing dhamma that appears now. > Of course! Did I suggest otherwise? Seeing is nama. Seeing and visible object, hearing and sound, they can be studied now, especially the rupa, I still agree with A Sujin that it is rupa that appears more, it makes sense to me in a way that is ever so little being tested by sati, I believe. No rules, of course there may often be awareness of what is taken for "dosa" (can our understanding distinguish dosa and domanassa?) and lobha... Phil #121102 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 12:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" sarahprocter... Dear Scott, > From: scottduncan2 > >Sarah: "Wise reflection is thinking, surely?." > >Scott: Is it? Just thinking? 'Thinking' is so often disparaged - 'just thinking.' Is this 'yoniso manasikaara?' I've been given to understand recently that it's thinking *with pa~n~naa* and that's how concepts can be objects of pa~n~naa. Am I missing something? .... Sarah: Not "just thinking" - thinking with pa~n~naa of course in the context of "hearing dhamma, wise reflection, etc., leads to direct understanding" (quoting Rob E). As he said, the wise reflection is conceptual - thinking which thinks wisely about dhammas. Whenever pa~n~naa arises of any level, there is 'yoniso manasikaara' - actually, yoniso manasikaara whenever any mind-door processes are wholesome. Metta Sarah ===== #121103 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 1:01 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Sarah: "Not 'just thinking' - thinking with pa~n~naa of course...Whenever pa~n~naa arises of any level, there is 'yoniso manasikaara' - actually, yoniso manasikaara whenever any mind-door processes are wholesome." Scott: Right. We're talking about the 'thinking' that is accompanied by kusala dhammaa. So thinking about the role of concepts as objects of pa~n~naa, seeking to clarify this by 'thinking' about it - this is not a waste of time, this could involve pa~n~naa, this could represent 'yoniso manasikaara,' and this needn't be said to be some sort of inferior, wrong-headed activity. Scott. #121104 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 1:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nimitta, yoniso manaasikara, concepts. Was: Is there a dhamma.. nilovg Dear Scott, Rob E, Sarah, Op 5-dec-2011, om 11:18 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > R: "...you still don't explain how hearing Dhamma, wise reflection, > etc., leads to direct understanding. The initial experience of > Dhamma is conceptual, it is not direct when reading or thinking > about it." > > > > Scott: I don't know how it does. It just does. And not by > thinking. ... > .... > Sarah: Wise reflection is thinking, surely?. ------ N: This is interesting. I think Scott goes to the essence when saying: This is actually what we were discussing about all the time, about pa~n~naa in pariyatti. Wise reflection, this is actually right attention, yoniso (right) attention. With each kusala citta also without being accompanied by pa~n~naa, and I believe not just thinking. Even the word thinking can be used in a wide sense, as we use it every day, but also in the sense of vitakka cetasika, which arises even in sense-door processes. I heard on a recording Kh S citing Culla Niddesa (not in English) giving an elaboration on Ajita's questions (Sutta Nipaata, vs. 10035) The text explains about the nimitta of sati (and here it is different from sa"nkhaara nimitta as we discussed a lot). There is a dhamma that is nimitta of sati, that conditions sati to be mindful. We may be forgetful, but breath as mentioned in Mindfulness of Body may appear and that can condition sati to be aware. Then one does not think to stop developing sati. The nimitta of sati is the condition not to be forgetful of the object that appears. It abandons the dhamma that is the enemy of sati. N: There are different subjects such as foulness of the body, cemetery contemplations, etc. All these can bring us back to the present moment, not forgetting to develop understanding of naama and ruupa that appear now. ------ Nina. #121105 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 2:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on knowing nama as nama, rupa as rupa (transcript 6/6/06, pt.1) nilovg Dear Phil, thank you very much. I saved it for my file. Nina. Op 5-dec-2011, om 11:33 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Q: Why is there so much emphasis on knowing nama from rupa before > there can be knowing kusala from akusala. (paraphrase) > > A.S: Can we understand nama and rupa right now in order to know > better whether this moment is kusala or akusala? #121106 From: Ken O Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 2:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" ashkenn2k Dear Rob E  if everything is accumulation, then why bother to learn Buddhism.  hahaha :-)  KC   >________________________________ >From: Robert E >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Monday, 5 December 2011, 8:10 >Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" > > > >Hi Phil. > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > >> ph: Telling someone to mind their own cittas/business is oxymoronical. Let's see you do it, you haven't shown ability there so far. Me neither.We are what we are. accumulared tendencies change very, very slowly. See the adze handle simile. Thinking you can change others' behaviour let alone your own indicates a lack of understanding of Dhamma, the essence of which is anatta. >> >> I note akusala smug sense of superiority alternating with kusala right understanding. No, I don't, it's just speculating about what cetasikas seem likely to be involved. > >I am not telling you to mind your own business; I am asking you not to put others down who have different practices from yours. What you think is your business, but how you express it in public is open for a response. The fact that accumulations are not under one's control is not an excuse to act that way, and shouldn't be used that way. I don't think you should keep criticizing people who meditate, especially those whose knowledge and experience of Dhamma is much greater than yours - and of course I don't mean me, though I don't appreciate it either. > >Best, >Rob E. > >= = = = = = = = > > > > > #121107 From: Ken O Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 3:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' ashkenn2k Dear Rob E >I do understand, in the usual way, that a concept is immutable to time in the sense that it is an abstraction and not a particular case. So we may call to mind the idea that something is a "flower" and this idea of "flower" does not change over time, but is called upon as an immutable construct. > >However, what I am talking about is whether concept is *really* immutable to time, rather than only so on a conceptual level. When citta arises, it still only arises for one moment, so the moment in which it entertains a concept is still only one moment at a time. So in reality, the concept too is only entertained one moment at a time, and has to be re-engaged by successive cittas in order to be entertained for more than one moment. In that sense, the concept is being brought up one moment at a time, and even though that concept is not changeable as an idea, it is changing and dying out as an arising thought. It is not as if some cittas are hanging around for more than a moment to grant the concept is continuity and immutability. As far as citta is concerned, it has to engage the concept over and over again to maintain it. > KC: you are right that concepts also have to arise and cease in cittas and I happy you can see that :-). That is why concepts can be used for development because it is just an object of citta :-). >I guess the real distinction is that pannatti are constructed of thought only. They do not occur by natural arising, and that is a distinction I can understand. But I think it is dangerous to think that it really is hanging around outside of time, because it really does not. Citta may invent concept, but it does so on a momentary basis, like everything else. Even nibbana is engaged by successive cittas if it is engaged for more than one moment, so I think there are some more distinctions to be addressed here about how pannatti is actually engaged and what role it plays when it is "brought up" by citta. KC: Yes another good question, honestly I do not have an answer to that. Nibbana I can explain but not concepts why outside of time in relation to the rising and ceasing of cittas. > from: Reaching Absorption: >> ...But at first it does not appear as repulsive, and as long as it does not appear, so long should the concept not be left aside. When it appears, then leaving aside the concept, it should be brought to mind as repulsive. ... > >This is a good quote, and an important point, that both pannati and nimitta, under the right circumstances of correct understanding, can stand in for direct discernment as a placeholder, and help to bridge the gap between one level of understanding and another, if I understand the point correctly... KC: yes you are right I remember that I told you I will share with you on passages of Anatta if I find it. This is another one that I have found. Commentary to the Girimananda Sutta (wheel publication) pg 9 <<(ii) Contemplation of No Self is the contemplation (perception) of no-self, which grasps the characteristic of no-self, called insusceptibility of mastery, in the tive aggregates. These are shown in the form of the bases, and they are suffering in the sense of oppression. But the characteristic of no-self fails to be apparent because it is concealed by compactness owing to resoutlon of compactness not being kept in mind. But the resolution of compactness is effected by resolving it into its various elements-and distinguishing each one thus: The earth (solidity) element is one, the water (cohesion) element is another, and so on; and by recognising that there is compactness as a mass, compactness as a function and compactness as an object. When this has been done, the characteristic of no-self becomes apparent in its true nature. But when material and immaterial states (states) of mind and matter have arisen mutually supporting each other, their compactness as a mass is assumed through failure to subject formations to compression owing to belief in their unity. And likewise compactness of function is assumed when, although differences in the functions of such states exist, they are taken as one. And likewise compactness of object is assumed when, although differences in the ways in which states that have objects make them their objects exist, they are taken as one. But when these compactnesses have been resolved by means of knowledge into their elements, they are seen to disintegrate, like foam subjected to pressure by the hand. They are mere phenomena that occur due to conditions, and are void. Thus it is that the characteristic of no-self becomes fully evident. (Yisuddhi Magga p. 640 and Paramattha manjusa).>> then pg 16 <<(ii) In the description of the Contemplation of no-self, The Eye has as its characteristic the sensitivity of the primary elements of matter that is ready for the impact of visible ob jects; or its characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements originated by kamma sourcing from desire to see (Vis. 444); or the eye is what enjoys and makes manifest a visible object. Is NOT-SELF: it is not- self, nor is it possessed of a self. Why? Because it does not come from anywhere, nor does it go anywhere after its fall. But rather, before its rise it had no individual reality; and after its fall its individual reality is completely broken up. And it occurs without any creator since it occurs bctween the past and the future in dependence on conditions (Vis. 484). The reason for no-self in each case should understood in the same way. VISIBLE OBJECTS have the characteristic of impinging on the eye (Vis. 446). It is the visible-objet base that evidences the state of what is in the heart when that is undergoing a change of colour (Vis. 481). IS NOT-SELF: it is not-self, nor is it possessed of a self, because it is not susceptible of mastery and because of the absence of any core of self in it.>> cheers KC #121108 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 4:18 am Subject: Re: 'Right concepts' scottduncan2 KC, KC: "you are right that concepts also have to arise and cease in cittas...That is why concepts can be used for development because it is just an object of citta.." Scott: I think you are wrong here in what you suggest about concepts arising and ceasing. That a concept can be an object of citta is not disputable. That concepts 'arise and cease' is incorrect. Both pa~n~natti and Nibbaana are placed within the category of 'time-freed.' I don't think you understand this properly. First of all, Nibbaana differs from pa~n~natti as Nibbaana is a reality and pa~n~natti is not. This is a given. That both are considered to be 'time-freed' suggests something about their 'nature' as objects of citta. Neither pa~n~natti nor Nibbaana arise nor fall away. Nibbaana exists and becomes object for the rarified process of cittas which make up the Path when it arises. In this case, *and completely independent of the arising and falling away of the cittas which make up the Path and take Nibbaana as object*, Nibbaana is 'always present' but hidden due to ignorance, etc. It is the same for pa~n~natti. These 'exist' as mind-objects each time citta takes one as object. They are simply there again as object for citta when citta arises again to take them up. It is only citta - the dhamma that is a reality - which arises and falls away. As to 'concepts can be used for development,' this is a conventional way of saying that that which is being developed by the taking of certain objects has to be kusala and is 'developed' by its arising and falling away only. There is no self 'using' the object. Scott. #121109 From: Ken O Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 4:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" ashkenn2k Dear Scott >KC: "Nimitta can be concepts or can be a sign or language that describe the meaning of anything including dhamma. Just like anatta is a word, the meaning of anatta is not a nimitta." > >Scott: You seem to be saying that nimitta is everything. KC: if we take Nibbana as animitta, the rest can be classified as nimitta. In the four discriminations of knowledge, only the discrimination of meaning is both mundane and supramundane while the three are only mundane. Meaning is important, signs are not. >KC: "Nimitta whether it identical to pannatti does not matter. To mean the essence of learning dhamma is not to differentiate whether it is a nimitta or it is concept, it does not help at all. And we have to start with nimitta or with concepts, like words in our language in order to understanding the meaning of the specific charcteristics of dhamma or the three/general characteristics of dhamma ..." > >Scott: I can comment on this. I think it's a bit silly, on a list dedicated to discussing the Dhamma, to keep reading people to say that wanting to learn the meaning of this or that does not help when it comes to 'the essence of learning dhamma.' > >Why not just tell someone that they can leave list when they snatch the pebble from your hand? (Pop-cultural reference to a silly television show in the 70's known as 'Kung-Fu'.) > >Or why not just say, 'I don't really know the difference between these two things KC: I have explain above. Did you ever see Buddha saying, hey people this is nimitta and this is not nimitta, or saying because it is a nimitta, that is not the essence of dhamma or that is not for you to learn dhamma? If it is important to differentiate that, Buddha will have repeated it many times. Buddha did say about nimitta, it is usually for the nimitta of jhanas. The obsession with nimitta and concepts only happen here. It is rather not important at all. If it is important, let me say again, Buddha will say here guys this is a concept or nimitta so do not bother about it. Maybe the ancient was wrong on what they said in the debates commentary and people like you know better <> And I heard so many of such aloof thinking that concepts are not important, I never see that in any suttas or Abhidhamma texts. Could you be the first then. Also you should not just rattle, why dont you tell me with your all gutsy, why concepts are not important in understanding the essence of dhamma before the purification of view stage and quote me the text. Sure saying about paramatha dhamma is the essence while concepts is not, may make one feel that they know dhamma better, then be the first to tell me. Or your understanding is just limited by your own obsession with paramatha and your cup of tea is full. I await for your fiery response. :-) It is a long times since I talk in this way :-) Cheers KC p.s. In the Abhidhamma and not in the sutta, there are emptiness and wishlessness paths, there is no path known as signless path. So why bother about signs or nimitta. #121110 From: Ken O Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 4:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' ashkenn2k Scott > >KC: "you are right that concepts also have to arise and cease in cittas...That is why concepts can be used for development because it is just an object of citta.." > >Scott: I think you are wrong here in what you suggest about concepts arising and ceasing. That a concept can be an object of citta is not disputable. That concepts 'arise and cease' is incorrect. > >Both pa~n~natti and Nibbaana are placed within the category of 'time-freed.' I don't think you understand this properly. First of all, Nibbaana differs from pa~n~natti as Nibbaana is a reality and pa~n~natti is not. This is a given. That both are considered to be 'time-freed' suggests something about their 'nature' as objects of citta. > >Neither pa~n~natti nor Nibbaana arise nor fall away. Nibbaana exists and becomes object for the rarified process of cittas which make up the Path when it arises. In this case, *and completely independent of the arising and falling away of the cittas which make up the Path and take Nibbaana as object*, Nibbaana is 'always present' but hidden due to ignorance, etc. > >It is the same for pa~n~natti. These 'exist' as mind-objects each time citta takes one as object. They are simply there again as object for citta when citta arises again to take them up. It is only citta - the dhamma that is a reality - which arises and falls away. > >As to 'concepts can be used for development,' this is a conventional way of saying that that which is being developed by the taking of certain objects has to be kusala and is 'developed' by its arising and falling away only. There is no self 'using' the object. KC: are you saying concept can exist without a mind :-). I am will happy to hear from you. So if the mind cease, you mean the concept exists :-). Concepts can be used for development because it is not concepts that penetrate the meaning, it is panna that understand the meaning of the general/three characteristics that arise out of a concept which is an object of a citta. Just like understanding that a flower is not self, are you saying this understanding is not panna, just because the object is a concept. If it is, that it means tha panna can choose the object it wish to arise, or alternatively, in the Abhidhamma, they would have another class of citta, panna can only arise with paramatha dhamma. KC #121111 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 5:16 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" scottduncan2 KC, KC: "...The obsession with nimitta and concepts only happen here. It is rather not important at all. If it is important, let me say again, Buddha will say here guys this is a concept or nimitta so do not bother about it. Maybe the ancient was wrong on what they said in the debates commentary and people like you know better..." Scott (Fiery Response): I'm sorry, KC, 'people like you' - do you mean me? What sort of 'people' am I? As for the 'obsession with nimitta and concepts,' I fail to see how every-day, ordinary discussing and clarifying and all that deserves to be characterised as 'obsession.' If this is an 'obsession' then you too are 'obsessed,' what with your persistent statements regarding the role of concepts. Are you 'obsessed' or is this all simply discussing the Dhamma. As to your point, it seems to me that the Buddha clarified in many ways that certain things were important and certain other things were not. Concepts have been indicted as unimportant while serving as a vehicle for some sort of understanding simply by virtue of having been expressed. KC: "The teaching of the Exalted One is of two kinds, the highest-meaning teaching consisting of the aggregates and so forth, and the popular teaching consisting of 'butter jar' and so forth. The Exalted One does not indeed, overall run consistency. Hence on the mere expression 'there is the person who,' must not command adherence. The highest meaning has been declared by the Teacher, without transgressing the concept. So, another wise man also should not, in explaining the highest meaning, overrun a concept" Scott: Please say in your own words how you interpret 'overrun a concept.' KC: "...And I heard so many of such aloof thinking that concepts are not important, I never see that in any suttas or Abhidhamma texts. Could you be the first then. Also you should not just rattle, why dont you tell me with your all gutsy, why concepts are not important in understanding the essence of dhamma before the purification of view stage and quote me the text. Sure saying about paramatha dhamma is the essence while concepts is not, may make one feel that they know dhamma better, then be the first to tell me. Or your understanding is just limited by your own obsession with paramatha and your cup of tea is full..." Scott: My cup of tea is full? What's that supposed to mean. Ha ha. Haven't you noticed all of the controversy on the list lately where everyone is revisiting old positions on this topic of concepts as object, reversing themselves at times, revising themselves at others? Quite interesting. Jon, Nina, Sarah - all seem to be saying that pa~n~na, arising with thinking and taking pa~n~natti as object *is* what pariyatti is and, therefore, concepts can serve as objects which further the development of pa~n~naa. No one seems to be saying that concepts are not involved in things. It did seem that they used to say stuff like that but apparently not anymore. I say, however, that it is the arising and falling away of pa~n~naa, no matter what the object, that is development. Scott. #121112 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 5:22 am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' scottduncan2 KC, KC: "are you saying concept can exist without a mind. I am will happy to hear from you. So if the mind cease, you mean the concept exists..." Scott: Are you suggesting that Nibbaana *does not* exist when it is not the object of citta? So it is citta that creates Nibbaana? Both concept and Nibbaana are time-freed. KC: "Concepts can be used for development because it is not concepts that penetrate the meaning, it is panna that understand the meaning of the general/three characteristics that arise out of a concept which is an object of a citta..." Scott: Correct. KC: "...Just like understanding that a flower is not self, are you saying this understanding is not panna, just because the object is a concept. If it is, that it means tha panna can choose the object it wish to arise, or alternatively, in the Abhidhamma, they would have another class of citta, panna can only arise with paramatha dhamma." Scott: Pa~n~naa is pa~n~naa. Apparently no one is disputing you anymore about the place of concepts as possible objects of pa~n~naa. I might be wrong about this because it sure did seem that you were being told that your ideas were incorrect for some reason. Is that how you recall it or did I miss something? Scott. #121113 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 5:51 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Ahirika -Anottappa moellerdieter Dear Sarah, I looked at the many messages and thought , wow , Sarah must have had help from the posting wizzard , no envy ,but admiration ;-) (B.T.W. wizzard has much to do with what the Burmese call ' Weizzar' ) you wrote : D: (I repeated our exchange , because the details are important ..) > dosa is not conditioned by tanha but is one of the 3fold aspects of tanha in a broad meaning of rejection ..... S: I wouldn't say that dosa is an "aspect of tanha". it is conditioned by tanha. No tanha, no dosa. There are two initial causes of the cycle given in the texts - ignorance and attachment. D: indeed : no tanha= no dosa (no lobha,no moha) ..similar no feeling = no pleasure (no stress, neither nor), it is the threefold manifestation of tanha respectively vedana within the chain of D.O. , vedana conditions tanha .. no conditioning within tanha Buddhist Dict. :taṇhā: (lit. 'thirst'): 'craving', is the chief root of suffering, and of the ever-continuing cycle of rebirths. "What, o monks, is the origin of suffering? It is that craving which gives rise to ever-fresh rebirth and, bound up with pleasure and lust, now here, now there, finds ever fresh delight. It is the sensual craving (kāma-taṇhā), the craving for existence (bhava-taṇhā), the craving for non-existence (vibhava-taṇhā)'' (D. 22). T. is the 8th link in the formula of the dependent origination (paáš­iccasamuppāda, q.v.). Cf. sacca. Greed, o monks, is a condition for the arising of kamma; hatred is a condition for the arising of kamma; delusion is a condition for the arising of kamma ...." (A. III, 109). The latter is the conventĂ­onal definition of tanha/thirst/craving/urge , the triad it's colour. Buddh. Dict.:"dosa: 'hatred', anger, is one of the 3 unwholesome, roots (mĹŤla, q.v.). - d. citta: hate consciousness; s. Tab. I (30, 31).mĹŤla: 'roots', also called hetu (q.v.; s. paccaya, 1), are those conditions which through their presence determine the actual moral quality of a volitional state (cetanā), and the consciousness and mental factors associated therewith, in other words, the quality of kamma (q.v.). There are 6 such roots, 3 kammically wholesome and 3 unwholesome roots, viz.,: greed, hate, delusion (lobha, dosa, moha), and greedlessness, hatelessness, undeludedness (alobha, adosa, amoha).In A. III, 68 it is said that greed arises through unwise reflection on an attractive object, hate through unwise reflection on a repulsive object. Thus, greed (lobha or rāga) comprises all degrees of 'attractedness' towards an object from the faintest trace of a longing thought up to grossest egoism, whilst hatred (dosa) comprises all degrees of 'repulsion' from the faintest trace of ill-humor up to the highest pitch of hate and wrath." .... > D: the problem as I see it , happens when the clinging to the emotion (tanha) of unpleasant feelings last for a longer time , then we face a depression, which may become a quite serious ailment. ..... S: Usually it is aversion to the arisen unpleasant feelings and attachment to unarisen pleasant feelings that leads to more unpleasant feelings, more depression, more grief about our loss, our unhappiness and so on. What we think about with unpleasant feeling leads to more of the same. At such times, we think the grief and unhappiness is the problem, but really it's the attachment to ourselves, to our pleasant feelings that is the problem. Ignorance at the root of it all, as you say. .... D: yes, usually we want to get rid of unpleasant feeling and looking for the pleasant feeling . The vicious circle of attachment remains until there is disentchantment and so dispassion as well to the latter.But in the case of grief , dosa is the urge (tanha) of aversion /'not wanting to have' .Clinging and becoming means here a rejection/hate (dosa/vibhava tanha) of the present situation , which , I think, in the case of depression is directed against the citta ("oneself"). Yes, avijja and its appearance as cetasika - moha- is the root. > > S: one needs to It takes a lot of courage to follow the path and be honest and truthful to the present realities, doesn't it? > *** > Dhp, Verse 212. > "Piyato jaayatii soko, > piyato jaayatii bhaya.m, > Piyato vippamuttassa > natthi soko kuto bhaya.m." snip Please let me know how this sounds. It's an important topic for everyone... D: I think besides the manifestation of tanha we agree .. ;-). S: S: Good point - "where we are" - "Instead with insight let him see Each presently arisen state" In other words, it always comes down to the reality now - the present dhamma - not yours or mind - just a conditioned dhamma. A good and important discussion for us all, thx Dieter. D: thanks for the points you made . Yes: ' where we are" - "Instead with insight let him see Each presently arisen state" ' if we only would be able to practise Satipatthana for the 'high score ' of seven days in a row .. ;-) unfortunately we are householders and even , if not , with much wordly detachment up to the 4 base requisites , we would need the guidance of the Noble Path for a lasting solution.. Where we are , each of us may be , is the construction of our raft in order to cross the stream , aren't we? with Metta Dieter #121114 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 6:11 am Subject: Re: Nimitta, yoniso manaasikara, concepts. Was: Is there a dhamma.. szmicio Dear Nina, L: Acharn mentions 3 kinds of attention at all. Arammana..(something)...Manasikara, vitthi..(smth)....manasikara and javana...(smth)..manasikara. What are the respective full pali terms for that? The first one is manasikara of each moment, this is cetasika aramana, the second pancadvaraavajanacitta, and the third manodvaraavajjanacitta. > The text explains about the nimitta of sati (and here it is different > from sa"nkhaara nimitta as we discussed a lot). L: How could be nimitta of sati, different of nimitta of sankhara? Best wishes Lukas #121115 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 6:29 am Subject: Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > One time I was in Varanassi [Benares] in India looking for a room > > and all the rooms in this nice hotel were in flux as people were > > checking in and out, but there were currently no rooms available > > without a reservation. I checked in several times, and every time I > > asked the manager whether I could get a room, he would shake his > > head and say "It's possible." > ------- > N: When they shake their heads in India it means yes! I see this in > my imagination, just delightful. :-) I enjoyed being in India very much both times I was able to travel there. > In Japan, when you ask a question > and they say no, it may mean yes, ask Phil. That is interesting. I guess you could get pretty confused if you are not socially conscious. It depends on the point > de depart. > Another example, we quoted Kh S: there should be sati each moment, > and later on: there cannot be sati of satipa.t.thaana all the time. > Here she wanted to point to other levels of sati, sati arising with > all kinds of kusala. So, we have to be careful when we quote Kh S, it > depends in which context she points out something. > -------- That's a good point! I like that example. Instead of being a contradiction, as it seems, it is really a continuum from a more "normal" level of sati to sati of satipatthana. > > R: The Abhidhamma and commentary seem to be pretty "Western" in > > the sense that they have worked through so many details of how > > every condition and co-arising condition will create various > > results in the micro-moment, so it is an interesting question. > ------ > N: Yes, but now we have to consider the application, how we apply it > in the situation of life. > Just now! Always the connection with life. Never theoretical. That is helpful when you point that out. Always good to be reminded that the moment is not theoretical, that it is happening right now. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #121116 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 6:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma and this moment epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Rob E, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > >>S: We never know when it'll be our last discussion with anyone. it's a reminder, to me, to reach out and help when and where we can. > > > >R: Yes, that is a good reminder, very important to remember at all times. When I realize all the things I do and worry about based on an illusion of permanence, it really seems ridiculous when you remind yourself that this life is very frail and short. I've been noticing that lately and at the moment that it is realized, it really changes your perspective. > .... > S: Yes. I think we don't realise how very deep-rooted the illusion of permanence is. We think that we don't have ideas about anything lasting, but is there an illusion of things lasting for an instant, such as the book or the computer? Until the idea of atta, of some 'thing' is eradicated, there must be ideas of permanence. It's funny. We've been wrestling with ideas about pannati and nimitta lately, and it seems like there is still a lot of confusion, mostly because they have different roles in different contexts. I was going to read about pannati in Survey, and wondering if I would get from the computer to the book! Then while searching for nimitta online I found a complete online version of Survey on the wisdom books site, so I never got over to the bookshelf. There is a quote that I liked and read about 10 times, but it didn't quite seem to apply to the post to Scott at the time. But now I think it applies nicely to what you said above. I think it is very good. Here K. Sujin talks about nimitta as the "outward appearance" of things that fools us into thinking they are whole, lasting objects with bigger identities beyond the moment. I think it also explains nicely how we attach to the idea of "people," both for ourselves and others: "...When someone, after having seen what appears through the eye-sense, does not understand realities as they are, there is bound to be attĺ-sańńĺ. He takes what was seen for people, beings or things. When people are absorbed in different colors, it causes them to think of a "whole", of shape and form, and thus there is remembrance (sańńĺ) of the outward appearance of persons and things. When it seems that one sees people, beings or things, there are in reality only different colors which are seen, such as black, white, the color of skin, red or yellow. "If people would not interpret different colors or "translate" them into shape and form, they would not conceive them as beings, people or things. Therefore, when we see and we are then absorbed in the shape and form, in the outward appearance (nimitta) and the details of things, we should know that this occurs only because color appears. When colors appear, we think about them, interpret them and "translate " them into shape and form of different things. "When sati arises and is mindful of realities and pańńá begins to study and investigate their characteristics, one will begin to understand that the outward appearance and all the details of things, all the different colors, are only what appears through the eyes, nothing else. Then pańńá begins to penetrate the characteristics of realities as not a self, not a being, not a person." Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #121118 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 6:51 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" epsteinrob Hi Rob K. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Yes Rob , that is how I see it too. > BTW could you see a little the funny side of Scott's "I a.m wr.t.ing sl..lo.ly".. joke? Sure, from one Rob to another, if I look at it just in its own right, disconnected from the other comment, it could be very humorous. It's the treating of such people like they are fools that makes it less funny for me. BTW, it was Phil's comment, not Scott's, though Scott got on board... Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #121119 From: "philip" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 10:25 am Subject: Odour and enslavement philofillet Hi all I like this from Nina's book on rupa, p.15: "Odour cannot arise alone, it needs the four Great Elements which arise togetger with it and it is also accompanied by the other rupas included in tge eight inseparable rupas. When odour appears we tend to be carried away by like or dislike. We are attached to fragrant odours and we loathe nasty smells. However, odour is only a reality which is experienced through the senses and it does not last. If one does not develop understanding of realities one will be enslaved by all objects e perienced through the senses. On account of tgese objects akusala cittas tend to arise. If someone thinks there is a self who can own what is seen, touched or smelt, he may be inclined to commit unwholesome deeds such as stealing. In reality all these objects are insignificant, they arise and then fall away immediately." There is a famous passage from George Orwell about no matter how liberal our views, the smell of a beggar will make us hate him, or something like that. Phil #121120 From: "philip" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 11:03 am Subject: Re: Odour and enslavement philofillet --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi all > Hi again > "If someone thinks there is a self who can own what is seen, touched or smelt..." I think self-view is subtler than this. It's easy for people to say they don't believe there is a self, much harder to see how sakkaya ditthi is behind almost everything they do. So for the above I would say "until sakkaya ditthi has been eradicated" or something like that. Otherwise you get people saying "hey, I know there is no self" and what is at the root of the cittas that condition saying that? Phil #121121 From: Ken O Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 1:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" ashkenn2k Scott > >KC: "...The obsession with nimitta and concepts only happen here. It is rather not important at all. If it is important, let me say again, Buddha will say here guys this is a concept or nimitta so do not bother about it. Maybe the ancient was wrong on what they said in the debates commentary and people like you know better..." > >Scott (Fiery Response): I'm sorry, KC, 'people like you' - do you mean me? What sort of 'people' am I? As for the 'obsession with nimitta and concepts,' I fail to see how every-day, ordinary discussing and clarifying and all that deserves to be characterised as 'obsession.' If this is an 'obsession' then you too are 'obsessed,' what with your persistent statements regarding the role of concepts. Are you 'obsessed' or is this all simply discussing the Dhamma. > >As to your point, it seems to me that the Buddha clarified in many ways that certain things were important and certain other things were not. Concepts have been indicted as unimportant while serving as a vehicle for some sort of understanding simply by virtue of having been expressed. KC: Nope, if concepts are not important, Buddha will not teach meditation or would have state it very clearly or put it as those questions that he will not answer like the begining of everything. Discussion of dhamma is good but when one become entangle or obsess with it, it become counter productive. Understand nimitta is not important at all. The problem is that one thinks just because citta arise and cease so fast, one only sees the nimitta of it. That is not the concern of learning dhamma, the concern is learn the meaning of the dhamma when it arise, present or when it cease. Even if it is nimitta, when it arise, does one understand the general characteristics of it when it arise. > >KC: "The teaching of the Exalted One is of two kinds, the highest-meaning teaching consisting of the aggregates and so forth, and the popular teaching consisting of 'butter jar' and so forth. The >Exalted One does not indeed, overall run consistency. Hence on the mere expression 'there is the person who,' must not command adherence. The highest meaning has been declared by the Teacher, without transgressing the concept. So, another wise man also should not, in explaining the highest meaning, overrun a concept" > >Scott: Please say in your own words how you interpret 'overrun a concept.' KC: Yes I am obsessed on why people are obsessed with concepts and nimitta :-))). Overrun a concept - because concepts are fundamental in explaining the highest meaning or understanding the highest meaning. It is the begining of learning. Everyone who wish to learn Buddhism must start from concepts. One cannot discard concepts in the development of the path wether it is for the development of jhanas or virtues or understanding, all these three, in one way of another have concepts as their objects from time to time in the mundane level. >KC: "...And I heard so many of such aloof thinking that concepts are not important, I never see that in any suttas or Abhidhamma texts. Could you be the first then. Also you should not just rattle, why dont you tell me with your all gutsy, why concepts are not important in understanding the essence of dhamma before the purification of view stage and quote me the text. Sure saying about paramatha dhamma is the essence while concepts is not, may make one feel that they know dhamma better, then be the first to tell me. Or your understanding is just limited by your own obsession with paramatha and your cup of tea is full..." > >Scott: My cup of tea is full? What's that supposed to mean. Ha ha. > >Haven't you noticed all of the controversy on the list lately where everyone is revisiting old positions on this topic of concepts as object, reversing themselves at times, revising themselves at others? Quite interesting. Jon, Nina, Sarah - all seem to be saying that pa~n~na, arising with thinking and taking pa~n~natti as object *is* what pariyatti is and, therefore, concepts can serve as objects which further the development of pa~n~naa. No one seems to be saying that concepts are not involved in things. It did seem that they used to say stuff like that but apparently not anymore. I say, however, that it is the arising and falling away of pa~n~naa, no matter what the object, that is development. KC: You should ask them whether satipatthana involved concepts or whether mundane 8NP only involved paramatha dhamma :-) KC: The difference between nimitta and concept - in my personal opinion, anything other than Nibbana are nimitta. Anything other than paramatha dhamma, can be considered concepts. So nimitta may not be concepts because nimitta can be paramatha dhamma. Nimitta are just signs and it can be signs of a dhamma/reality. The Expositior, pg 301 <>. cheers KC #121122 From: "philip" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 1:25 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" philofillet Hi Robs, Scott all > R: "BTW could you see a little the funny side of Scott's 'I a.m wr.t.ing sl..lo.ly'.. joke?" > > Scott: Credit to Phil. And it was hilarious. A joke that is funny and strikes right at the heart of a blatantly wrong practice that has so many adherents is valuable. I don't know enough about Goenka to have a go at them, any takers. Let's a Goenka devotee was busily scanning his body parts one day when a Mahasi devotee sl o o o o l eee walked by. At first tge Goenka guy was irritated because seeing the Mahasi guy walking in such a peculiar manner threw him off his body account. But it happened that they had met at a Metta Forest monastery retreat under Thanissaro Bhikkhu a few years back and at the time they had found that they shared an ability to breath through their eyes in order to develop mindfulness in the body, and had met for a coffee once afterwards. So tge Goenka guy very softly says "hi Pablo" but the Mahasi guy doesn't even make the slightest of gaving noted "hearing, hearing.". So the Goenka guy says it again "hi Pablo.". Nothing. Finally the Goenka guy gets up and goes in front of the Mahasi guy who's just in the middle of "lifting, lifting" his foot. The Mahasi guy notes "stopping, stopping" and then "looking, looking" and "seeing, seeing" and then "turning, turning" and "lifting, lifting" his foot in the opposite direction. This really pisses the Goenka guy off and he dashes around to block the Mahasi guy's path again. The Mahasi guy slowly looks up and slowly lets out air in a very very slow sigh. "Pablo, don't you remember me?" the Goenka guy says, really hurt now. "Ii iii ts no tttt th aaa ttt iiii dooont reee co gniiiize you," the Mahasi guy finally admits " Buuu uuu ttt iiiii no oooted "I oooooowe this guy a cooo fff eeee, I oooowe thiiiis giii a cooo oooffeeeeeee" aaaa nd Iiiiiii dooooon't haaaa aaaave tiiii iiiime tooooooooo goooooooooooo fooooo rrr a cooooo ffeeeeeee toooo dayyyyyyy. Iiiiiiii haaaaavvvveeeee toooo doooo aaaa huuuu ndrid circumlocaaaaaationssss of the paaaaa rrr k to daaaaay aaaandddd I haaaaa ve oooonleeee nooo tedd "foooooorteeee fooooor, fooooorrrrteeeee foooooooor." Darn, that's still a Mahasi joke. Phil p.s Rob E, not trying to irritate you. #121123 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 1:51 pm Subject: Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" scottduncan2 KC, Me: "Concepts have been indicted as unimportant while serving as a vehicle for some sort of understanding simply by virtue of having been expressed" KC: "Nope, if concepts are not important, Buddha will not teach meditation or would have state it very clearly or put it as those questions that he will not answer like the begining of everything..." Scott: Nope? What are you disagreeing with? I'm agreeing with you, man. Okay, it's probably the language thing. You didn't read my statement carefully enough. I said, 'Concepts have been indicted as unimportant..." and imply by this that the indictment is not accurate; concepts have their importance. Then I said, '...while serving as a vehicle for some sort of understanding...' and by this I mean to further note the importance of concepts by showing that they contain the Dhamma and, given the presence of pa~n~naa, can be vehicles towards real understanding. Then I said, 'simply by virtue of having been expressed' by which I meant to further highlight their importance. Don't just disagree with something you didn't understand in the first place. I'm saying that it appears that concepts can be important. KC: "...Discussion of dhamma is good but when one become entangle or obsess with it, it become counter productive. Understand nimitta is not important at all. The problem is that one thinks just because citta arise and cease so fast, one only sees the nimitta of it. That is not the concern of learning dhamma, the concern is learn the meaning of the dhamma when it arise, present or when it cease. Even if it is nimitta, when it arise, does one understand the general characteristics of it when it arise." Scott: Hearing the Dhamma and wisely considering it can be encompassed within a Dhamma discussion. Your opinion regarding 'obsession' is your own, and reflects your current attitude towards this particular list and the evolution of your own ideas in relation to what you consider to be the prevailing views. Your are still making an argument that no one seems to be disagreeing with any more. What you say about learning and nimitta is a moot point, since even the knowing of nimitta occurs at a rate that is impossible to think about. Of course, 'one' understands nothing - pa~n~naa does. Discussing the Dhamma on this list is totally fine - a perfectly ordinary thing to do. Stop discussing if you have such a low opinion of it. KC: "...Overrun a concept - because concepts are fundamental in explaining the highest meaning or understanding the highest meaning. It is the begining of learning. Everyone who wish to learn Buddhism must start from concepts. One cannot discard concepts in the development of the path wether it is for the development of jhanas or virtues or understanding, all these three, in one way of another have concepts as their objects from time to time in the mundane level..." Scott: I don't think that's what it means at all to 'overrun a concept.' One speaks conventionally but doesn't forget that one is referring to paramattha dhammaa. That's it. That's not 'overrunning a concept' - not forgetting nor ignoring convention. Not the mythical thing you are trying to make of it. KC: "You should ask them whether satipatthana involved concepts or whether mundane 8NP only involved paramatha dhamma..." Scott: You ask them yourself. Directly. You are another of the stalwarts who appears to be having an identity crisis vis-a-vis the supposed central views of the list. They probably think I am as well. So what. Just discuss. KC: "The difference between nimitta and concept - in my personal opinion, anything other than Nibbana are nimitta. Anything other than paramatha dhamma, can be considered concepts. So nimitta may not be concepts because nimitta can be paramatha dhamma. Nimitta are just signs and it can be signs of a dhamma/reality..." Scott: I elided your Expositor quote since it didn't apply at all to your opinion. Of that I suggest that you must be moving towards the Mahayanist view. You are saying that Nibbaana is a paramattha dhamma while everything else is 'nimitta.' Are there no other realities - no other paramattha dhammaa other than Nibbaana - now? Scott. #121124 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 2:27 pm Subject: Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" scottduncan2 Phil, Ph: "...Let's say a Goenka devotee was busily scanning his body parts one day when a Mahasi devotee sl o o o o l eee walked by..." Scott: Ha Ha. I don't find this outrageous at all - funny yes, for sure, but not outrageous. I fail to see why Rob E. gets so up in arms about stuff like this. I honestly see these 'practitioners' as being totally bamboozled. I can't help it. It's natural for me. What on earth could be convincing someone that moving slowly or obsessively labeling everything that occurs to one has anything to do with the Dhamma? I'll tell you what - or who - it's the so-called teachers who we are supposed to respect. But based on what? Monkhood? Living the life is one thing, seeking adherents, creating systems - that's another and it can be seen in every other ordinary pursuit in life: someone gaining fame and prestige by cashing in on appearances. Total nonsense. Keep the jokes coming - and by that I mean there's no need because I totally agree with your point. Scott. #121125 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 3:04 pm Subject: Re: 'Right concepts' epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Do you agree that such thinking is "time-freed" as is being asserted in > this thread? > ------------------------------------------ > HCW: > It's not being asserted that thinking is. Thinking is temporal. (I > believe that those who believe that there are things that are concepts and yet > at some level realize that they "different" from other objects speak in > that fashion.) I think we've had this conversation before, but what I think is that conceptual objects are thought-referents that do not correspond to anything other than thought. Of course conceptually defined objects and images do not actually exist - they don't stand or live or arise anywhere, other than being mentioned or visualized mentally, but they do exist as part of the thought-process. Otherwise what you are saying is that thought doesn't have any content. I think it's obvious that familiar definitions, languaging, images both remembered and imagined are referenced and re-referenced in thinking, so the question is what the status of such references are. I think K. Sujin's passage on "translating" rupas into conceptual objects is very appropos, if you take a look at it from one or two of my messages ago... Otherwise I can quote it again... Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = #121126 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 3:11 pm Subject: Re: 'Right concepts' scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "...Of course conceptually defined objects and images do not actually exist - they don't stand or live or arise anywhere, other than being mentioned or visualized mentally, but they do exist as part of the thought-process..." Scott: You are on the right track... Scott. #121127 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 3:14 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" epsteinrob Hi Ken O. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > if everything is accumulation, then why bother to learn Buddhism. I think you raise an interesting point. We "blame" conditions and accumulations for our actions, but it is good to see what else is involved in what we think, say and do. If we hear Dhamma, then that changes the influences, and if we have thoughts arise that guard against wrong speech and action, then that changes the conditions as well. So we should not entertain conditions and accumulations as if they are our "fate." Rather they are the conditions within which new understandings and intentions can still arise and develop. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #121128 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 3:19 pm Subject: Re: 'Right concepts' epsteinrob Hi Ken O. Thanks for your comments and the quotes! I especially appreciated this quote from the Visudhimagga: "And likewise compactness of object is assumed when, although differences in the ways in which states that have objects make them their objects exist, they are taken as one. But when these compactnesses have been resolved by means of knowledge into their elements, they are seen to disintegrate, like foam subjected to pressure by the hand. They are mere phenomena that occur due to conditions, and are void. Thus it is that the characteristic of no-self becomes fully evident." I would like to contemplate this a little bit more. The idea that one can see into the nature of anatta by challenging the compactness or "togetherness" of what appear to be "full-blown objects" that exist beyond the moment is a very intriguing possibility. The image of seeing the object dissolve like foam when its integrity is challenged by discernment is likewise very appealing. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = #121129 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 3:27 pm Subject: Re: 'Right concepts' scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "...I would like to contemplate this a little bit more. The idea that one can see into the nature of anatta by challenging the compactness or 'togetherness' of what appear to be 'full-blown objects' that exist beyond the moment is a very intriguing possibility. The image of seeing the object dissolve like foam when its integrity is challenged by discernment is likewise very appealing." Scott: Be careful. Contemplate but be careful. This is not an intellectual exercise. You will not 'see' anything. This is a metaphorical and conventional description of the function of pa~n~naa and not a description of some fantastical acid trip. Scott. #121130 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 3:28 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' epsteinrob Hi Scott, and KC. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > KC, > > KC: "are you saying concept can exist without a mind. I am will happy to hear from you. So if the mind cease, you mean the concept exists..." > > Scott: Are you suggesting that Nibbaana *does not* exist when it is not the object of citta? So it is citta that creates Nibbaana? Both concept and Nibbaana are time-freed. I think it's a mistake to think that because both nibbana and pannatti are said to be "time-freed" that they have the same status with respect to citta. Nibbana is the only nama that exists independently of citta, as I understand it. [Is that wrong?] Since concept is created by citta, and is illusory, it is not the same as nibbana which illuminates and liberates citta from delusion. Rupa arises independent of citta and lasts more than one moment. Nama is dependent on citta and arises with citta only. Nibbana is the only dhamma other than rupa that is independent of citta. Pannatti arise with citta only and are a creation of citta. What do you think? Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = #121131 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 3:34 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Hi Robs, Scott all > > > > R: "BTW could you see a little the funny side of Scott's 'I a.m wr.t.ing sl..lo.ly'.. joke?" > > > > Scott: Credit to Phil. And it was hilarious. > > A joke that is funny and strikes right at the heart of a blatantly wrong practice that has so many adherents is valuable. I don't know enough about Goenka to have a go at them, any takers. I don't agree that meditation exercises such as these are wrong practice, but whether they are or not, there is a difference between having fun teasing someone you respect but have differences with, and putting someone down who you don't understand and don't like. It can be very funny to play with our differences if there is mutual respect, but otherwise joking turns into something else. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #121132 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 3:40 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "I think it's a mistake to think that because both nibbana and pannatti are said to be 'time-freed' that they have the same status with respect to citta. Nibbana is the only nama that exists independently of citta, as I understand it. [Is that wrong?] Since concept is created by citta, and is illusory, it is not the same as nibbana which illuminates and liberates citta from delusion." Scott: No, you are not correct. Both concept and Nibbaana can be object of citta. Nibbaana is 'naama' in that it bends consciousness towards it. And yes, it is 'independent of citta' being an object of citta and being a paramattha dhamma - the unconditioned element. I'm not convinced yet that 'concept is created by citta' but it may be. Nibbaana is an object of citta and, being a paramattha dhamma, exists independent of citta. R: "...Rupa arises independent of citta and lasts more than one moment." Scott: Ruupa lasts seventeen times longer than citta. Ruupa is not naama. Citta is naama. R: "...Nama is dependent on citta and arises with citta only..." Scott: Citta is naama. R: "...Nibbana is the only dhamma other than rupa that is independent of citta..." Scott: Okay. R: "...Pannatti arise with citta only and are a creation of citta..." Scott: I think so. They are the objects of thinking - citta arising in a series. Scott. #121133 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 3:40 pm Subject: Re: 'Right concepts' epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., > > R: "...I would like to contemplate this a little bit more. The idea that one can see into the nature of anatta by challenging the compactness or 'togetherness' of what appear to be 'full-blown objects' that exist beyond the moment is a very intriguing possibility. The image of seeing the object dissolve like foam when its integrity is challenged by discernment is likewise very appealing." > > Scott: Be careful. Contemplate but be careful. This is not an intellectual exercise. You will not 'see' anything. This is a metaphorical and conventional description of the function of pa~n~naa and not a description of some fantastical acid trip. Hopefully just increasing the clarity of understanding, albeit metaphorical and conceptual in expression. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #121134 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 3:43 pm Subject: Re: 'Right concepts' scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "Hopefully just increasing the clarity of understanding, albeit metaphorical and conceptual in expression." Scott: Just thinking. Not to disparage thinking since pa~n~naa can apparently arise during the process. But just thinking. Pa~n~naa increases in spite of you or me. Scott. #121135 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 3:46 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., > > R: "I think it's a mistake to think that because both nibbana and pannatti are said to be 'time-freed' that they have the same status with respect to citta. Nibbana is the only nama that exists independently of citta, as I understand it. [Is that wrong?] Since concept is created by citta, and is illusory, it is not the same as nibbana which illuminates and liberates citta from delusion." > > Scott: No, you are not correct. Both concept and Nibbaana can be object of citta. I think you misunderstood me. I have been saying all along that concept arises for citta in the moment and is object of citta. What I am saying is different is that concept is not independent of citta, since it is a thought-form. Is Nibbana also just invented by mind? No, it is not. So that to me is the difference. I truly don't understand the notion of pannatti being "time-freed" though. That makes it sound like a thought-form exists outside of the mind, whereas they arise with citta and are thus subject to citta's arising. Do you have a better explanation for what this means? I don't get it. > Nibbaana is 'naama' in that it bends consciousness towards it. And yes, it is 'independent of citta' being an object of citta and being a paramattha dhamma - the unconditioned element. That's right. > I'm not convinced yet that 'concept is created by citta' but it may be. If it is, it is very different in that sense from Nibbana. > Nibbaana is an object of citta and, being a paramattha dhamma, exists independent of citta. Right, and since concept is not a paramatha dhamma, it has a different status. It is just composed of thought since it has no real existence as dhamma. > R: "...Rupa arises independent of citta and lasts more than one moment." > > Scott: Ruupa lasts seventeen times longer than citta. Ruupa is not naama. Citta is naama. I agree. > R: "...Nama is dependent on citta and arises with citta only..." > > Scott: Citta is naama. But there are other namas too - cetasikas etc., yes? > R: "...Nibbana is the only dhamma other than rupa that is independent of citta..." > > Scott: Okay. > > R: "...Pannatti arise with citta only and are a creation of citta..." > > Scott: I think so. They are the objects of thinking - citta arising in a series. Agreed. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = #121136 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 3:47 pm Subject: Re: 'Right concepts' epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., > > R: "Hopefully just increasing the clarity of understanding, albeit metaphorical and conceptual in expression." > > Scott: Just thinking. Not to disparage thinking since pa~n~naa can apparently arise during the process. But just thinking. Pa~n~naa increases in spite of you or me. I don't envy panna's job, trying to get a little clarity despite our stupidity. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #121137 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 4:09 pm Subject: Re: 'Right concepts' scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "I don't envy panna's job, trying to get a little clarity despite our stupidity." Scott: 'Our stupidity' is irrelevant to pa~n~naa. It has nothing to do with 'us.' Scott. #121138 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 4:16 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "I think you misunderstood me. I have been saying all along that concept arises for citta in the moment and is object of citta. What I am saying is different is that concept is not independent of citta, since it is a thought-form. Is Nibbana also just invented by mind? No, it is not. So that to me is the difference..." Scott: No, I just don't think you understand 'time-freed.' I'm not yet convinced that concept arises as object for *a single moment of consciousness*. Concept is a product of many moments strung together by ignorance. You have to consider what it means that both Nibbaana and concept are time-freed. This does not make them identical, it is merely a category they both fit into. Scott. #121139 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 4:48 pm Subject: Re: 'Right concepts' epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., > > R: "I don't envy panna's job, trying to get a little clarity despite our stupidity." > > Scott: 'Our stupidity' is irrelevant to pa~n~naa. It has nothing to do with 'us.' Well I was being a little humorous - which seems to be somewhat popular lately, at least with those making the joke - but "us" is just a stand-in for "deluded cittas," but not as funny. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #121140 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 4:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., > > R: "I think you misunderstood me. I have been saying all along that concept arises for citta in the moment and is object of citta. What I am saying is different is that concept is not independent of citta, since it is a thought-form. Is Nibbana also just invented by mind? No, it is not. So that to me is the difference..." > > Scott: No, I just don't think you understand 'time-freed.' I'm not yet convinced that concept arises as object for *a single moment of consciousness*. Concept is a product of many moments strung together by ignorance. You have to consider what it means that both Nibbaana and concept are time-freed. This does not make them identical, it is merely a category they both fit into. That's exactly what I'm trying to figure out - what time-freed means, particularly in terms of pannatti. I like your idea of pannatti being woven out of a number of contributions from deluded cittas; that seems to give me a start in understanding them, but I still don't see how they are time-freed, in that sense. If what is meant is just that they are constructed over time by a number of deluded cittas, then that would make perfect sense to me. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = #121141 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 10:30 am Subject: The Sublime Supreme Exists! bhikkhu5 Friends: Some Fine Facts: Only he is bright, who shines by himself! What is good, is really ... Good! What is excellent, is really ... Excellent! What is perfect, is really ... absolutely Perfect! A rose is a rose is a rose. ;-) And just that. Canal makers direct the water. Arrow makers straighten the shafts. Carpenters plane the planks of wood. The Clever Nobles train their Mind... Dhammapada 80 Those who meditate regularly; Those who endure enthusiastically; Those who exert much right effort; These wise ones attain Nibbâna: The supreme Peace, the sublime Bliss. Dhammapada 23 Health is the greatest gain! Contentment is the finest treasure! Certainty is the foremost helper! Nibbâna is the highest Happiness... Dhammapada 204 Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Fabulously Fine Facts! #121142 From: "philip" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 7:52 pm Subject: Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" philofillet Hi Scott, Robs all > Ph: "...Let's say a Goenka devotee was busily scanning his body parts one day when a Mahasi devotee sl o o o o l eee walked by..." > > Scott: Ha Ha. I don't find this outrageous at all - funny yes, for sure, but not outrageous. > > I fail to see why Rob E. gets so up in arms about stuff like this. I honestly see these 'practitioners' as being totally bamboozled. I can't help it. It's natural for me. Ph: Well, if anything the fact that I made the effort to tap that out on an i-phone shows that chanda or virya can be predominant factor to condition akusala. I have never laughed so maniacally by myself in a public place before....fortee, fffoooorrrteeee... Phil #121143 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 8:16 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > 'S: Dieter, sankhara as the 2nd 'link' refers to past kamma, kamma from previous lives which conditions birth and vipaka cittas in this life. This, of course, is past cetana which was past kamma patha. The vinnana in D.O. is this birth consciousness and subsequent vipaka cittas. The nama/rupa in D.O. refers to the cetasikas which accompany the birth consciousness and vipaka cittas and the rupas conditioned at the moment of birth.' > > D: I think it is important to understand that the first two links are past , as Buddhagosa described it, but accumulated past incl. previous lives up to the present . There is no cut by birth and leaving both behind. Otherwise it would be impossible to abolish avijja , wouldn't it? ..... S: Avijja and sankhara (kamma) in the past, yes, conditioning birth (and subsequent vipaka) in this life. The past avijja and past kamma have completely gone - even the avijja and kamma of a moment ago has completely gone. Avijja accumulates, conditions all kinds of kamma which brings results and so on. The 3 rounds of kilesa, kamma and vipaka, round and round. It is throught the accumulated development of (present) understanding that avijja is abolished. ... > S: The khandas refer to all conditioned dhammas. Sankhara khandha includes all cetasikas apart from sanna and vedana which have their own khandhas. So, as Nina stressed, the context for a term is very important > > D: yes, my point is that sankhara khanda , as part of the nama khandas (4th place) , involves momentary volition (in respect to the 6 senses media) ... S: The nama in "4th place" only includes those cetasikas accompanying patisandhi (birth) consciousness and subsequent vipaka cittas in this life. So, yes, at a moment of seeing consciousness, the seven universal cetasikas accompanying seeing are included in "4th place nama", but not those accompanying attachment to that seeing, for example. There is cetana, momentary volition, with every citta, so I agree that this is included. As for the relevance, how about avijja now? Most the day, there's no understanding, no awareness at all of avijja which arises with all unwholesome cittas - i.e. all those javana cittas not involved with dana, sila or bhavana! Metta Sarah ==== #121144 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 8:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > S: Nama must be a dhamma, such as dosa. No knowing of nama without knowing the experiencing dhamma that appears now. > > > Of course! Did I suggest otherwise? .... S: I thought that (in several messages), you were saying that there has to be an understanding of nama and rupa before there can be an understanding of a cetasika, such as dosa. I was simply attempting to point out that it is the understanding of the dosa, feeling, seeing or other particular nama which appears now which leads to the clear comprehension of the distinction between namas and rupas, to the vipassana nanas. .... >Seeing is nama. Seeing and visible object, hearing and sound, they can be studied now, especially the rupa, I still agree with A Sujin that it is rupa that appears more, it makes sense to me in a way that is ever so little being tested by sati, I believe. No rules, of course there may often be awareness of what is taken for "dosa" (can our understanding distinguish dosa and domanassa?) and lobha... .... S: Yes, no rules at all, otherwise it's a hindrance. Of course understanding can distinguish between dosa and the feeling accompanying it and lobha ...just depends what appears and what accumulated panna understands at any given moment now. No need to label what is known, what appears. Sati is just aware and panna just understands the characteristic which appears. This is the way that gradually it becomes apparent exactly what nama is and what rupa is. No atta at all! Metta Sarah ===== #121145 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 8:37 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Nimitta, yoniso manaasikara, concepts. Was: Is there a dhamma.. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, (Scott & Rob E), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > R: "...you still don't explain how hearing Dhamma, wise reflection, > > etc., leads to direct understanding. The initial experience of > > Dhamma is conceptual, it is not direct when reading or thinking > > about it." > > > > > > Scott: I don't know how it does. It just does. And not by > > thinking. ... > > .... > > Sarah: Wise reflection is thinking, surely?. > ------ > N: This is interesting. I think Scott goes to the essence when > saying: thinking> This is actually what we were discussing about all the > time, about pa~n~naa in pariyatti. .... S: Rob E was referring, as I understood him, to pariyatti or suta-maya panna, wise considering of what has been heard about dhammas, (not yoniso manasikara, which as you indicate arises with all kusala cittas, even those unaccompanied by panna). To my understanding, when there is pariyatti or suta-maya panna, there must be panna present, a degree of understanding about realities. At such times, the object of the 'thinking cittas' is a concept of dhamma. Of course, such thinking is not the same as conventional thinking - rapid cittas and not necessarily any words involved. If the object is not a paramattha dhamma (or a nimitta of a paramattha dhamma just passed), then it must be a concept (or nimitta of a concept). .... >N: I heard on a recording Kh S citing Culla Niddesa (not in English) > giving an elaboration on Ajita's questions (Sutta Nipaata, vs. 10035) > One, their restraint is mindfulness. I will tell you the constraint > for streams. They are dammed by wisdom.> > The text explains about the nimitta of sati (and here it is different > from sa"nkhaara nimitta as we discussed a lot). There is a dhamma > that is nimitta of sati, that conditions sati to be mindful. We may > be forgetful, but breath as mentioned in Mindfulness of Body may > appear and that can condition sati to be aware. Then one does not > think to stop developing sati. > The nimitta of sati is the condition not to be forgetful of the > object that appears. It abandons the dhamma that is the enemy of sati. > > N: There are different subjects such as foulness of the body, > cemetery contemplations, etc. All these can bring us back to the > present moment, not forgetting to develop understanding of naama and > ruupa that appear now. ... S: Thx for sharing this. Actually, any topic, any subject can be a condition for sati. As Ken H wrote before, even though concepts are used, concepts are thought about (and there can be nimitta of concept too as in these examples), "the suttas describe the world of presently arisen conditioned dhammas. They do not describe the world of concepts." "There is only one world" as he said too. Metta Sarah ===== #121146 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 8:41 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The camp thing... sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > concerning our beloved topic , I stumbled upon following distinction recently (stated by Pali scholar Prof Gombrich), nothing really new but > a nice scheme .. : > > ceto vimutti > > to abolish passion ( raga)/ greed (lobha ) > > concentration (samadhi) > > one pointedness of mind (cittass ekagatta) > > calming (samatha ) > > Jhana etc. (ecstatic states) > > > > panna vimutti > > to abolish ignorance (avijja)/delusion (moha) > > insight (panna) > > awareness (sati ) > > intuition (vipassana) > > seeing reality (yatha bhuta-dassana) > > > Though I think there will be often mixtures between the 2 approaches, recalling the scheme , may be possibly of help in some discussions to understand the view of the 'other camp' better. ..... S: Whatever 'approach', 'whatever camp', 'whatever mixture' - only one way to liberation, that is satipatthana, the eightfold path, abolishing ignorance etc. Metta Sarah ==== #121147 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 8:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma and this moment, just like now! sarahprocter... Hi Phil, (Nina, all), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Ph: I liked when you talked to that kid and helped him understand that whatever it was he wanted somuch at the time wouldn't be satisfactory for long. We can't inject disenchantment into others and our own is only fleeting, but that's an important aspect. I heard A. Sujin saying something kind of subtle about all the things we hunger after, we've had them before, countless times, the vipaka proves that in some way, I forget. .... S: Yes, we have whatever we ever wished for already by way of sights, sounds and so on. I liked this sutta which Ven Samahita posted recently (#120766) "Venerable Mahaali once asked the Buddha: But, Venerable Sir, what is the causing condition of mental defilement? By what reason, do beings become mentally defiled and degraded? The Buddha then explained: If, Mahali, this form, this feeling, this perception, this construction and this consciousness were exclusively suffering, immersed only in frustration, soaked solely in trouble and if it were not also sometimes soaked in pleasure, beings would not become enamoured with it. But since this form, this feeling, perception, construction & this consciousness is also occasionally pleasurable, immersed now and then in pleasure, soaked momentarily in delight & it is not soaked only & always in pain, beings become enamoured & enthralled with it! By being enamoured with it, they are captivated by it and obsessed with it... By being captivated by it and obsessed with it, they are defiled & degraded! This, Mahali, is the causing condition for the mental defilement of beings... By this reason, do beings become mentally defiled & detrimentally degraded! Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikâya III 69-71 ..... > Useless cittas, hoping to hear her talk about that some more... .... S: All useless apart from moments of understanding of dhammas.....all the rest just lead on in the cycle. ... > We can't force disenchantment, but I think if there isn't a wee bit more showing up a wee but more often, and sticking. around a wee bit longer the Dhamma is not getting > through... ... S: We never know when hearing the Dhamma will have its effects - maybe not in this life, maybe in lives to come, like Devadatta for example. We share as we can and the rest is up to conditions and tendencies. Metta Sarah === #121148 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 8:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma and this moment, just like now! sarahprocter... Hi Colette, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette_aube" wrote: > VERY GOOD SUTTA. .... S: Christine posted the entire sutta here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/120924 Please share your further comments on it. >....I came to the conclusion that we, the people having the parade and/or party, that we are celebrating the joy the person must be experiencing through their release from this turmoil we call life, the suffering that we endure by living. > > Thank you for sharing that with me! ... S: A pleasure. Each moment of life, even the last moment of life, is like this one - arising and falling away, conditioning the next one. In truth, only cittas, cetasikas and rupas - no people at all. Metta Sarah ==== #121149 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 9:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nimitta, yoniso manaasikara, concepts. Was: Is there a dhamma.. nilovg Dear Sarah and Rob E, Sorry, I misunderstood. Wise reflection, sutta mayapa~n~naa. Nina. Op 6-dec-2011, om 10:37 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > S: Rob E was referring, as I understood him, to pariyatti or suta- > maya panna, wise considering of what has been heard about dhammas, > (not yoniso manasikara, which as you indicate arises with all > kusala cittas, even those unaccompanied by panna). #121150 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 10:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" nilovg Dear Scott, Op 3-dec-2011, om 16:45 heeft scottduncan2 het volgende geschreven: > > > Scott: I'd suggest that there is a difference between thinking > about and considering things (not just 'words' but meaning of words > in relation to realities) and getting 'fixed on words.' ... > (snipping to make it shorter). I'm trying to get clear on what is > the object of pa~n~naa at the level of pariyatti. This is said to > be more than just 'intellectual' and so, what is it that makes it > so? Pa~n~naa, I would say, and what does pa~n~naa 'understand?' > That is the question. Not a good one? > ------- N: understanding at the level of Pariyatti: it depends on the moment: at one moment there is thinking about visible object, and at another moment sati can begin to be aware of visible object as a ruupa. Even though the difference between naama an ruupa is not yet clear. I think that we cannot say: this week is still pariyatti and next week suddenly pa.tipatti starts: direct, clear awareness of one naama and ruupa at a time, sammaasati of the eightfold Path. There must be different moments and no rule. These moments can alternate very rapidly. I heard this further about the Culla Niddesa, Ajita's questions Kh Sujin was reading out and this was about different levels of sati. Someone contemplates the Buddha's virtues, Buddhanusati, but he also is aware of naama and ruupa in between. There is no rule when the object is a concept and when a naama or ruupa. -------- > > > N: "...We discussed further: I asked how we can be aware of a > nimitta. She said that it is a concept *of* a reality. We can just > be aware of the characteristics that appear and do not have to > think of nimitta at all..." > > Scott: I had heard it said a number of times that nimitta or a > reality that had just fallen away is *not* concept, or differs from > just concept, so this seems contradictory. I may have > misunderstood. Do you see 'nimitta' to be 'concept?' What of > 'nimitta' as 'shadow of a reality' - does this equal 'concept?' I'd > read 'shadow of a reality' to be closer to the reality than being > an actual 'concept.' Does 'shadow of a reality' mean 'concept?' (In > other words, is pa~n~natti a synonym for nimitta?) > ------- N: When using the word pa~n~natti we have to take into account what type of pa~n~natti. The shadow is indeed mentioned by a co. as a feature of pa~n~natti. I think it is a good description. Seems like: a concept of a reality, not just any concept. ------ > > > N: She said: it is now. ...And why do we remind each other all the > time of the present reality? Because there are characteristics > appearing that can be known through the six doors, one at a time..." > > Scott: And these are *not* concepts. These are realities. Or is it > being said now that these are concepts? > ------- N: It is now, well there may be different moments here as I indicated in the beginning. Some moments of thinking of reality now, some moments of beginning to attend to a characteristic that appears. No rule. It depends! ------- > > > Scott: This 'knowing' is natural, in the moment, and not a function > of thinking. I get that. Satipa.t.thaana does not take concepts as > objects, as I've been understanding. Is this now being amended? Are > you saying that sati is aware of 'conceptual characteristics' now > too? Is there a 'pariyatti' leve of satipa.t.thaana? > -------- N: Sati of the level of satipa.t.thaana is aware of paramattha dhammas. ------ > > > S: It is being said that pariyatti is so due to the presence of > pa~n~naa, from time to time - that it's not just reading or > thinking about stuff. It is being said on the one hand that > pa~n~naa takes concepts as object, and on the other that one should > ignore concepts because they are 'just words.' A bit confusing for me. > ------ N: Again different meanings of concepts. They are not always words, but they can be words expressing realities. Or they are shadows of realities. ------- > > Scott: So, is it that 'nowhere in the teaching' we can find the > answer to what is concept, what is nimitta, which of these is > object for pa~n~naa at the level of pariyatti? Yeah, and while I > appreciate the discussion, it seems to me that 'I don't know' - > which might be the answer in this case - is not being expressed, > rather is being replaced by 'it's a personal matter.' > ------- N: Better: it depends on the moment. -------- > > R: If the question as to what sort of concept is taken by pa~n~naa, > given that this is correct, has no answer then fine, then that is > the answer. Do you consider the sorts of things I am considering in > this thread to fall outside of the realm of 'considering a lot?' > ------- N: No, it is considering what you do here. But my answers will not be satisfactory to you, since I rather stress the practical side, the moment, and I do not consider only the theory. Although I appreciate what you say: you like precision. ------ In another thread: N: "...The present object, it is still present although it has > > just fallen away..." > > > > Scott: This version of nimitta suggests it to be 'closer to' a reality. ---- N: I think Scott goes to the essence when saying about understanding: > ------- Phil: Ph: "..Maybe just accepting that since nama and rupa rise and fall away so quickly, whatever appears cannot be a single dhamma, so it is that shadow of reality, whatever it is, let's just become more familiar with it gradually, let's let sati and panna do their thing, let's not get in the way? Obviously I am not anti-intellectual about Dhamma, but maybe there are times wanting to be precise on each and every point can get in the way? Maybe?" -------- N: This expresses how I feel about it. ---------- Nina. > #121151 From: "philip" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 11:58 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" philofillet Hi Rob E >> I don't agree that meditation exercises such as these are wrong practice, but whether they are or not, there is a difference between having fun teasing someone you respect but have differences with, and putting someone down who you don't understand and don't like. Ph: It's akusala to ridicule anyone, of course. Not good at all. But I will do it until understanding dpes away with it, that's the way it works. I said the other day that your telling me not to do it has nothing to do with that process, but that was incorrect, I think. It could be a condition for kusala abstaining, that's possible, much too complex a process to rule any possibility out. But as for you, that's another question, you'll have to look at what motives are behind all the reprimanding of others that you do. You'll notice how rarely Jon, Sarah and Nina reprimand people for wrong speech. Does that mean they don't know how harmful it is? Of course not. They probably have a better grasp of how complex conditions are. But I can relate to the reprimanding, I have done it too, and who knows, might again. I started writing reprimands to Chuck a few times, when he was making those swastika comments, for example, but something conditioned hitting the "cancel" button, and rather than reprimanding him, there were some friendly posts, while you reprimanded him. You are not particularly obnoxious in your reprimanding, mind you, so I don't mind when you do it. I think you are a friendly fellow, and I might work you into one of my future jokes as a kind of tribute. Phil #121152 From: "philip" Date: Wed Dec 7, 2011 12:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma and this moment, just like now! philofillet Hi Sarah > > Ph: I liked when you talked to that kid and helped him understand that whatever it was he wanted somuch at the time wouldn't be satisfactory for long. We can't inject disenchantment into others and our own is only fleeting, but that's an important aspect. I heard A. Sujin saying something kind of subtle about all the things we hunger after, we've had them before, countless times, the vipaka proves that in some way, I forget. > .... > S: Yes, we have whatever we ever wished for already by way of sights, sounds and so on. Ph: That paradoxical thing comes up cuz all the pleasant sights and sounds that we are so intoxicated by and which almost always end up conditioning akusala are the results of kusala kamma. The harsh sense door experiences that are the result of akusala kamma do indeed usually condition akusala response, but also seem to help along understanding. When we are sick or something terrible happens like with your friend, isn't there more likely to be disenchantment than when lovely things are happpening, and we become so complacent? Well, there is no way out except by understanding, we can all agree on that. Let's not sleep through this great opportunity to develop udnerstanding. Phil #121153 From: "philip" Date: Wed Dec 7, 2011 12:14 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" philofillet Hi Sarah > S: I thought that (in several messages), you were saying that there has to be an understanding of nama and rupa before there can be an understanding of a cetasika, such as dosa. I was simply attempting to point out that it is the understanding of the dosa, feeling, seeing or other particular nama which appears now which leads to the clear comprehension of the distinction between namas and rupas, to the vipassana nanas. Ph: Well, my point is what I am hearing again and again that it is seeing and visible object, hearing and sound etc where understanding can be developed hear and now. I know you are strict about "no rule, no selecting" and I appreciate that, and have heard it often enough that I won't easily fall into the trap of thinking that I should only concentrate on seeing and visible object in a thoroughly misguided way. But there has also been a lot of listening about and to a lesser extent reading about and more recently more and more moments of considering in a somewhat more direct way the characteristics of visible object and seeing. I sometimes hear the term "it is sankhara khana for understanding", and I'm not sure exactly what that means, but feel that it indicates that all the moments of considering the characteristics of dhammas, especially seeing and visible object, are accumulating in a helpful way. I feel quite confident of that. I seem to be getting by my concern about seeing lobha lobha lobha in everything. As Nina said in her "lew te" (?) post the other day, appreciating hearing A. Sujin talking about the roof of lobha and lobha everywhere doesn't mean that we have to have saddha exterminated by fears of lobha, there can also be confidence that understanding is developing now. Phil #121154 From: "philip" Date: Wed Dec 7, 2011 12:32 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" philofillet Hi again Correction > As Nina said in her "lew te" (?) post the other day, appreciating hearing A. Sujin talking about the roof of lobha and lobha everywhere doesn't mean that we have to have saddha exterminated by fears of lobha, there can also be confidence that understanding is developing now. Ph: Nina didn't say this, but she said that there can be wisdom in being relaxed at times in the way we see things that we are strictly accurate about at other times. If it were true that there are only a very few rare openings in the dome of lobha, only a very few and very rare islands to stand on in that great surging river of lobha, there would be no hope. On the other hand, it is also true that there are only ver few rare openings in the dome of lobha, only a very efw and very rare islands to stand on in that great surging river, and they are where the hope is. Well, that is probably rubbish. Phil #121155 From: "philip" Date: Wed Dec 7, 2011 12:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" philofillet Hi again again. Another correction. > Ph: Nina didn't say this, but she said that there can be wisdom in being relaxed at times in the way we see things that we are strictly accurate about at other times. No she didn't! I just read that into her appreciation of "it depends." Phil #121156 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 7, 2011 12:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 12/5/2011 11:04:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Do you agree that such thinking is "time-freed" as is being asserted in > this thread? > ------------------------------------------ > HCW: > It's not being asserted that thinking is. Thinking is temporal. (I > believe that those who believe that there are things that are concepts and yet > at some level realize that they "different" from other objects speak in > that fashion.) I think we've had this conversation before, but what I think is that conceptual objects are thought-referents that do not correspond to anything other than thought. Of course conceptually defined objects and images do not actually exist - they don't stand or live or arise anywhere, other than being mentioned or visualized mentally, but they do exist as part of the thought-process. Otherwise what you are saying is that thought doesn't have any content. ---------------------------------------------- Thought content isn't a thing at all, as I see it. This "content talk" is just a way of describing a thought process. And as I see it, the "concept forming" aspect of thinking, as opposed to deduction, is a process of sa~n~na and various sankharas operating at ever higher levels, beginning with forming of sense-data nimitta, then viewing groups of interrelated nimitta/percepts as individuals and "marking" them as higher-level nimitta/percepts, and then combining these (in thought) into still higher-level nimittas. Now, perhaps it is these that you consider to be concepts, but these nimittas, as I see it, are not things at all, but only actions (better "actings") of sa~n~na, any such action serving to condition future memory and recognition operations of sa~n~na. As I see it, thinking is best described in process terms, not thing terms. We tend to think of and speak of "things" - we "substantialize". We just LOVE nouns!! But we would do better, I think, to be verb and adjective oriented. --------------------------------------------- I think it's obvious that familiar definitions, languaging, images both remembered and imagined are referenced and re-referenced in thinking, so the question is what the status of such references are. I think K. Sujin's passage on "translating" rupas into conceptual objects is very appropos, if you take a look at it from one or two of my messages ago... Otherwise I can quote it again... Best, Rob E. ================================= With metta (not a thing but an emoting and a quality ;-), Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #121157 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 7, 2011 1:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" nilovg Dear Phil, Op 6-dec-2011, om 14:32 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Ph: Nina didn't say this, but she said that there can be wisdom in > being relaxed at times in the way we see things that we are > strictly accurate about at other times. ------ N: I can't remember. I do not think I used the word relaxed. ----- Nina. #121158 From: "philip" Date: Wed Dec 7, 2011 2:23 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" philofillet Hi Nina > N: I can't remember. I do not think I used the word relaxed. > ----- You'll have seen by now that I caught that and corrected it. Sorry about that. I like this from your book on Rupa: "We have accumulated conditions to think about concepts and we neglect the development of understandibg of realities." For the sotapanna there is hiri otappa about not being aware of realities. We are not there yet but there can be more and more moments of not being neglectful. Phil #121159 From: "connie" Date: Wed Dec 7, 2011 2:42 am Subject: Sangiitisutta Tens, sutta 4 nichiconn Dear Friends, DN33 10.4, dasa kusalakammapathaa: CSCD < Date: Wed Dec 7, 2011 2:56 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiitisutta Tens, no.4 and commentary. nilovg Dear friends, Book of Tens, Sutta 4. Walshe DN 33.3.3(4) 'Ten wholesome courses of action: avoidance of taking life ... (and so on, as (3) above). (Dasa kusalakammapathaa - paa.naatipaataa verama.nii, adinnaadaanaa verama.nii, kaamesumicchaacaaraa verama.nii, musaavaadaa verama.nii, pisu.naaya vaacaaya verama.nii, pharusaaya vaacaaya verama.nii, samphappalaapaa verama.nii, anabhijjhaa, abyaapaado, sammaadi.t.thi.) ------ N: The Co is similar to the Athhasaalini (Courses of Moral Action, 104, Expositor, p. 137) where these ten are considered under different aspects, for example, by way of dhamma (paramattha dhamma), as groups, as objects, as feeling and as roots. As to dhamma (dhammato): the first seven are called volitions and abstinences, and the last three are factors associated with volition (non-covetousness, non-malevolence and right view). As groups: The first seven are courses of action and not roots, and the last three are roots (alobha, adosa, amoha). As objects: the same as in the case of akusala kamma patha. The abstention is from (the transgression against) the object to be transgressed against (viitikamitabbato). In the case of lokuttara magga-citta which has nibbaana as object, this abandons the “wickedness of life-taking etc.” As to feeling, kusala citta is accompanied only by happy feeling or indifferent feeling. ------- N: When there is more understanding of akusala cittas that arise we shall see the danger of akusala siila and this can be a condition for the arising of hiri (shame) and ottappa (fear of blame) performing their functions. There can be abstention from akusala kamma patha at that moment. However, tendencies to evil deeds can only be eradicated by lokuttara magga-citta. The observance of the precepts which is sila, can also be considered as a way of daana. We read in the Gradual Sayings, (Book of the Eights, Chapter IV, 9, Outcomes of Merit) that going for refuge to the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha leads to happy results and that there are further five gifts which lead to happy results. These are the following (2 Translated by Ven. Nyanaponika, in Anguttara Nikaya, An Anthology III, Wheel publication 238-240, BPS. Kandy, 1976.) : Herein, monks, a noble disciple gives up the taking of life and abstains from it. By abstaining from the taking of life, the noble disciple gives to immeasurable beings freedom from fear, gives to them freedom from hostility, and freedom from oppression. By giving to immeasurable beings freedom from fear, hostility and oppression, he himself enjoys immeasurable freedom from fear, freedom from hostility and oppression... Further, monks, a noble disciple gives up the taking of what is not given... . ..gives up sexual misconduct... . ..gives up wrong speech... ...gives up intoxicating drinks and drugs causing heedlessness, and abstains from them. By abstaining from intoxicating drinks and drugs, the noble disciple gives to immeasurable beings freedom from fear, freedom from hostility and freedom from oppression. By giving to immeasurable beings freedom from fear, hostility and oppression, he himself enjoys immeasurable freedom from fear, freedom from hostility and freedom from oppression... When we abstain from iII deeds we give others the opportunity to live in safety and without fear. ------------ Nina. #121161 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Dec 7, 2011 4:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The camp thing... moellerdieter Dear Sarah , all, you wrote: Though I think there will be often mixtures between the 2 approaches, recalling the scheme , may be possibly of help in some discussions to understand the view of the 'other camp' better. ..... S: Whatever 'approach', 'whatever camp', 'whatever mixture' - only one way to liberation, that is satipatthana, the eightfold path, abolishing ignorance etc. D: I would have fully agreed with : 'only one way to liberation, the eightfold path, abolishing ignorance etc ' ;-) Sarah , the emphases on satipatthana is your approach . ' the only way ..' view basing on one sentence of the Maha Satipatthana Sutta is disputed . One may however consider the possibility that the canonical 'only way' means: without practise of mindfulness , there is no further passing , i.e. to the training of samma samadhi, the Jhanas. Whereas the former aims to be mindful of the 6 senses media and to recognize its reality , the latter aims by absorbtion of the 6 six ( first and second jhana) to see the states 'behind '. Each practise for its own framework. Now for those who emphasize the Jhanas ( with plenty of canonical support) , your statement, obviously disregarding the 8th step , is not acceptable. Hence I thought , if the two ' camps ' agree that approach with different emphases is possible (see example ceto vimutti and panna vimutti , as nicely presented by Gombrich, there could be a nicer atmosphere of discussion and sharing. I like to point out that ongoing derogatory remarks about meditation show disrespect , involve unwholesome cetasikas and causing disputes and disunity of the forum. with Metta Dieter ----- Original Message ----- From: sarah To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 10:41 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: The camp thing... Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > concerning our beloved topic , I stumbled upon following distinction recently (stated by Pali scholar Prof Gombrich), nothing really new but > a nice scheme .. : > > ceto vimutti > > to abolish passion ( raga)/ greed (lobha ) > > concentration (samadhi) > > one pointedness of mind (cittass ekagatta) > > calming (samatha ) > > Jhana etc. (ecstatic states) > > > > panna vimutti > > to abolish ignorance (avijja)/delusion (moha) > > insight (panna) > > awareness (sati ) > > intuition (vipassana) > > seeing reality (yatha bhuta-dassana) > > > Though I think there will be often mixtures between the 2 approaches, recalling the scheme , may be possibly of help in some discussions to understand the view of the 'other camp' better. ..... S: Whatever 'approach', 'whatever camp', 'whatever mixture' - only one way to liberation, that is satipatthana, the eightfold path, abolishing ignorance etc. Metta Sarah ==== #121162 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 7, 2011 7:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' nilovg Dear Ken O, Very good quotes, thank you. I keep them in my file. Nina. Op 5-dec-2011, om 17:48 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > Commentary to the Girimananda Sutta (wheel publication) > pg 9 #121163 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 7, 2011 7:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma and this moment nilovg Dear Rob E, Good you found Survey on line and now you could share with us this very good quote. I enjoyed reading it again. With appreciation, Nina. Op 5-dec-2011, om 20:47 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > Here K. Sujin talks about nimitta as the "outward appearance" of > things that fools us into thinking they are whole, lasting objects > with bigger identities beyond the moment. I think it also explains > nicely how we attach to the idea of "people," both for ourselves > and others: > > "...When someone, after having seen what appears through the eye- > sense, does not understand realities as they are, there is bound to > be attĺ-sańńĺ. #121164 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Dec 7, 2011 10:41 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Nimitta, yoniso manaasikara, concepts. Was: Is there a dhamma.. epsteinrob Hi Sarah, and Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > N: There are different subjects such as foulness of the body, > > cemetery contemplations, etc. All these can bring us back to the > > present moment, not forgetting to develop understanding of naama and > > ruupa that appear now. > ... > S: Thx for sharing this. Actually, any topic, any subject can be a condition for sati. As Ken H wrote before, even though concepts are used, concepts are thought about (and there can be nimitta of concept too as in these examples), "the suttas describe the world of presently arisen conditioned dhammas. They do not describe the world of concepts." It's kind of paradoxical that in order to understand the Dhamma which describes the "world of presently arisen conditioned dhammas," one has to first understand linguistically that there is a world of dhammas and that they are the potential object of understanding. So you process the Dhamma through concept in order to understand what the concepts are pointing to. Then I guess concepts of Dhamma become less important once one can potentially recognize what appears as dhammas and doesn't have to think about it as much. Jon and I have had some interesting exchanges, but he said something to me recently that stuck with me. I asked him what was the purpose of the concepts in Dhamma, and he said something like "they introduce you to the world of dhammas." I think that sums it up pretty well. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #121165 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Dec 7, 2011 10:49 am Subject: Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Ph: It's akusala to ridicule anyone, of course. Not good at all. But I will do it until understanding does away with it, that's the way it works. I said the other day that your telling me not to do it has nothing to do with that process, but that was incorrect, I think. It could be a condition for kusala abstaining, that's possible, much too complex a process to rule any possibility out. But as for you, that's another question, you'll have to look at what motives are behind all the reprimanding of others that you do. I don't do it that much - usually just you and Scott - and formerly Ken H. before he took a chill pill or something. Have you ever seen Scott and Ken H. in the same place at the same time, by the way...? When people are particularly strident, it brings that out in me. > You'll notice how rarely Jon, Sarah and Nina reprimand people for wrong speech. Does that mean they don't know how harmful it is? Of course not. They probably have a better grasp of how complex conditions are. But I can relate to the reprimanding, I have done it too, and who knows, might again. I started writing reprimands to Chuck a few times, when he was making those swastika comments, for example, but something conditioned hitting the "cancel" button, and rather than reprimanding him, there were some friendly posts, while you reprimanded him. You are not particularly obnoxious in your reprimanding, mind you, so I don't mind when you do it. I think you are a friendly fellow, and I might work you into one of my future jokes as a kind of tribute. Ha ha, I can't wait. I'm not against humor at all, in any case, or even teasing; just when it gets really disparaging. But I've done that too when I got mad enough... Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #121166 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Dec 7, 2011 10:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ================================= > With metta (not a thing but an emoting and a quality ;-), > Howard Metta-izing back at you, dear Howard, and hope you are well! :-) Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #121167 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Dec 7, 2011 11:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma and this moment epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Good you found Survey on line and now you could share with us this > very good quote. > I enjoyed reading it again. > With appreciation, > Nina. :-) I'm glad. It was kind of exciting to find it online! Wisdom Library where I found it also has a really great search feature - when I searched for "nimitta" it gave me a list of many references to its books by specific chapter, and a partial quote, including some of yours. Here's a partial list: A Manual of Abhidhamma > Process Freed Section > Procedure With Regard To Decease And Rebirth > English Text ...eath occurs while the present object is being presented to the avenues (i.e., kamma nimitta to one of the five sense doors or gati nimitta to the mind door) then the rebirth c... Anapana Sati > The Eight Steps > Step III And Step IV ...ppear heralding the success of concentration. First comes the learning sign (uggaha nimitta), then the counterpart sign (patibhaga nimitta). To some the sign appears like a wa... A Manual of Abhidhamma > Miscellaneous Section > Summary Of Doors > Notes ... a symbol of that past action (kamma nimitta), or a sign of the tendencies (gati nimitta) that are determined by the force of that past action" - p. 26. Here gati nimitta... Abhidhamma In Daily Life > What Happen When Death Draws Near > Importance Of The Last Minute ... the three objects of mind, namely - (a) kamma, (b) kamma nimitta and (c) gati nimitta. Here kamma means reflection on good or bad deeds done by him in the past. Kamma nimitta... Practical Advice for Meditators > Appendix > Ten Kasinas ...ard of them being employed (in Thailand), they are always in the nature of visions (nimitta) arising internally and being developed from this basis. It appears that contemplat... Introducing Buddhist Abhidhamma > Book II > 13 - Ana-pana ...en, he is said to have obtained the visualised image; it is a concept called Uggaha Nimitta, which is the mental replica of the symbol. The attempts have to make the visualis... Here's the link for the site: http://wisdomlib.org Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #121168 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Dec 7, 2011 9:33 am Subject: Understanding the Helplessness... bhikkhu5 Friends: KarunĂŁ: The Great Good Helper! Karunā is feeling the pain of other beings, either partially or completely; Possible translations: 1: Pity not from above: “I am better”, but as if in the other being’s shoes… 2: Compassion is OK, but that is difficult to reach up to for many beings… 3: Fellow feeling, sympathy, empathy, understanding are all OK, but somewhat missing these essential points: A: It is an inability to see and accept other being’s suffering and distress! B: It is a deep desire to make others feel free, glad, happy and peaceful! C: It is extended to and pervaded over many beings simultaneously… The proximate cause of Karunā = pity is noticing other being’s helplessness. The immediate effect of Karunā = pity is evaporation of all evil cruelty! <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita _/\_ * <...> #121169 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Dec 7, 2011 6:58 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) sarahprocter... Dear Scott, I think I overlooked the following message (#119828). Pls ignore if I replied already or if it's all history! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > Sarah: "In paramattha terms, it means the hearing of particular sounds (or seeing of particular visible objects) when associating with 'the wise'. In other words, if one never comes across the Buddha's Teachings, there cannot be the wise consideration." > > Scott: Agreed. In this case, 'the wise' refers to the Dhamma in the form of reading or hearing, I guess. Or perhaps as well to the presence of pa~n~naa? .... Sarah: Yes, reading or hearing Dhamma, but in paramattha terms, just moments of seeing and hearing particular objects as condition for pariyatti. Panna based on what has been seen or heard leading to further panna through further wise considering of what has been seen and heard. ... .... > Sarah: "Kusala thinking with pa~n~naa about realities. The cetasika, manasikaara, arises with every citta, as you know, so at these moments there is kusala manasikaara, but the yoniso manasikaara referred to is referring to the entire mind-door process." > > Scott: Okay, cool. The 'thinking' you refer too is then including the 'thought content' I guess - you know like the actual concepts that are formed into mental phrases and sentences and the like? .... Sarah: I wouldn't include 'thought content' in thinking. Thinking consists of realities, the content, the concepts (about realities in this case) doesn't. There can be awareness now of thinking, not of concepts. ... >Scott: Or, in other words, can you clarify 'entire mind-door process?' ... Sarah: From the first manodvaravajjana citta (mind-door adverting consciousness) for the rest of the process, so including the javana cittas. .... >Terms like 'process' (and 'should') can be misleading or confusing. It you are referring to 'wholes' such as a 'complete thought about the Dhamma' then this has to be made clear somehow. .... Sarah: I think you were asking about yoniso manasikara - lots more in U.P., but just pointing out briefly that it is not referring just to the cetasika manasikara. As for 'complete thought about the Dhamma', this would involve mulitple mind-door processes as Rob K pointed out. ... > > Sarah: "The point I'm stressing is just that there can be reflecting on cittas, cetasikas and rupas with kusala cittas or with akusala cittas, wisely or unwisely, even if the words and the text thought about/recited are 'correct'." > > Scott: Agreed. .... Sarah: Good. As we both agree, it can easily become another 'situation' or 'whole' that can, if misunderstood, lead to more rites and rituals. metta Sarah ==== #121170 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 7, 2011 7:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma and this moment nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 7-dec-2011, om 1:00 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > Abhidhamma In Daily Life > What Happen When Death Draws Near > > Importance Of The Last Minute > ... the three objects of mind, namely - (a) kamma, (b) kamma > nimitta and (c) gati nimitta. Here kamma means reflection on good > or bad deeds done by him in the past. Kamma nimitta... ------- N: Thank you for your references. Abhidhamma In Daily Life, may not be my book. It seems there is another book with that title. As to reflection on good or bad deeds, I would be careful with reflection. Mybe there is no time for reflection! ------- Nina. #121171 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 7, 2011 8:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cetasika in daily life - moha nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 3-dec-2011, om 15:30 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > > D: Let me try again: > I understand: among the Cetasikas there are 13 variable factors ( 7 > Universals , 6 Occasionals) and 25 Beautiful mental factors besides ´ > the 14 akusala Cetasikas. Which may or may not accompany the citta. > > N:However, when they are accompanied by akusa cetasikas, by the > kilesas, they become akusala, impure (schmutzig). Thus, this shows > that conascent > dhammas condition one another. > > D: The 14 unwholesome Cetasikas , when accompanying the citta, will > pollute it , correct? > If so, why kilesas? > ------ N: Defilements, kilesas can refer to all 14 akusala cetasikas. Here kilesa is used in a wide sense. Apart from this, kilesas can refer to a specific group of defilements, ten akusala cetasikas. As you know, there are nine groups such as the aasavas, oghas, yoghas, hindrances, etc. and also kilesas. Not all akusala dhammas are included in each of these groups, because the purpose is emphasizing specific aspects, and these aspects are different for each of these groups. Kilesas in a 'narrower sense' are classified as a group of ten akusala cetasikas with the purpose of showing their power to defile all the accompanying dhammas, including the universals, the particulars and also those four akusala cetasikas not classified as one of the ten kilesas. ------- > > D: It is not clear to me in which way the 10 kilesas are different > in function/ nature from the 10 unwholesome cetasikas , of which > they are identical by name (?) ... so far the kilesas appear to me > as an unnecessary new classification ...(tautological) > ------ N: If you consider each of the nine groups of defilements it may not be so strange to you? They are: 1. cankers, aasavas 2.flood, oghas 3. yokes, yoghas 4. ties, ganthas 5. ways of clinging, up ad anas 6. hindrances, niivaran. as 7. latent tendencies, anusayas 8. fetters, sam. yo janas 9. defilements, kilesas Lobha, for example, occurs in all nine groups, di.t.thi in all groups except the hindrances. Each group can remind us of the danger of akusala. > ------ Nina. #121172 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 7, 2011 8:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nimitta, yoniso manaasikara, concepts. Was: Is there a dhamma.. nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 5-dec-2011, om 20:11 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven > > L: Acharn mentions 3 kinds of attention at all. Arammana.. > (something)...Manasikara, vitthi..(smth)....manasikara and javana... > (smth)..manasikara. What are the respective full pali terms for that? > The first one is manasikara of each moment, this is cetasika > aramana, the second pancadvaraavajanacitta, and the third > manodvaraavajjanacitta. > -------- N: One kind of manasikaara is cetasika and two kinds are cittas. There is manasikaara cetasika that is one of the universals, it is the controller of the object: aaramma.na pa.tipadaka: it drives the conascent dhammas towards the object. Then there is: the five sense-door adverting-consciousness, the first sense-door process citta that adverts to the object. This is the controller of the sense-door process, pa~nca-dvaara viithi pa.ipadaka manasikaara. The third one is: the mind-door adverting consciousness which is succeeded by the javana-cittas (and this citta is in the sense-door process called the vo.t.thapanacitta). This is the controller of the javanas, javana pa.tipadaka manasikaara. -------- > > > L: > The text explains about the nimitta of sati (and here it is > different > > from sa"nkhaara nimitta as we discussed a lot). > > L: How could be nimitta of sati, different of nimitta of sankhara? > ------ N: There are different meanings of nimitta in different contexts. See Rob E's post with the quote from Survey: Rob E: -Here K. Sujin talks about nimitta as the "outward appearance" of things that fools us into thinking they are whole, lasting objects with bigger identities beyond the moment. I think it also explains nicely how we attach to the idea of "people," both for ourselves and others: "...When someone, after having seen what appears through the eye- sense, does not understand realities as they are, there is bound to be attĺ-sańńĺ. He takes what was seen for people, beings or things. .... "If people would not interpret different colors or "translate" them into shape and form, they would not conceive them as beings, people or things. Therefore, when we see and we are then absorbed in the shape and form, in the outward appearance (nimitta) and the details of things, we should know that this occurs only because color appears. When colors appear, we think about them, interpret them and "translate " them into shape and form of different things. (end quote). -------- N: In the Culla Niddesa text nimitta is an object that is a means to bringing us back to sati of the present moment after we have been forgetful. We are forgetful, lost in stories. Then we happen to think of the excellent qualities of the Buddha and this can bring us back to the present reality, a naama or a ruupa. But there is no rule at all, first this and then that. It depends on conditions. ------- Nina. > #121173 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 7, 2011 10:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. 34 and Tiika nilovg Dear Phil, Op 4-dec-2011, om 1:03 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > > I add this from Expositor (p.392, Tan) about another aspect of the > primary rupa which I hadn't thought about, their role in providing > sense of continuity (if I understand correctly): > > "The 'great essentials' or 'phenomena' are so-called for such > reasons as the manifestation of their greatness. For they are > called "'great essentials' [or primaries] ecause of the > manifestation of their greatness, because of the illusory > resemblances they show in phenomena, the immensity of their > maintenance (parihaaro), the immentsity of their metapmorpheses, > their vast elementality. Of these terms the first means that they > are manifested as vast in a continuity that is 'grasped at'...." > ----- N: It is an elaboration on maha, of maha-bhuuta ruupas, great elements. Maha means great. 'Grasped at' usually denotes; produced by kamma. Some ruupas of the body are produced by kamma. > -------- > > Ph: I think there is a derived rupa (one of the aspects of rupa > rather than rupa that has characteristic to be studied) that is > "continuity", right? Does this mean that contributes to the > distorted percept of permanence/continuity, kind of working > together with sanna, so to speak. (Though it can't be said rupa has > a function..) > ------- N: The four lakkha.na ruupas are origination of ruupa, development or continuation of ruupa (santati ruupa), decay of ruupa (jarataa ruupaa), falling away of ruupa (aniccataa ruupa). > Origination and decay just indicate moments that ruupa has arisen > and not yet fallen away. > These moments are extremely short, but someone with wrong view will apply his view to anything in the world. ------- Nina. > #121174 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2011 12:26 am Subject: n scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Sarah: "Yes, reading or hearing Dhamma, but in paramattha terms, just moments of seeing and hearing particular objects as condition for pariyatti. Panna based on what has been seen or heard leading to further panna through further wise considering of what has been seen and heard..." Scott: To be clear, are you referring here to pa~n~naa taking only realities as objects? In 'seen or heard' are you referring to reading or listening to the Dhamma - conventional-level 'activities?' Pariyatti is pa~n~naa with concept as object: Yes or no? Sarah: "...I wouldn't include 'thought content' in thinking. Thinking consists of realities, the content, the concepts (about realities in this case) doesn't. There can be awareness now of thinking, not of concepts." Scott: Jon has suggested that citta that 'thinks' creates it's object - 'thought content' - in the moment of it's arising. Does pa~n~naa take concepts for object or not? If so, are there like 'micro-concepts' of the momentary arising that no conscious 'awareness' consisting of wholes ever knows about? Sarah: "...From the first manodvaravajjana citta (mind-door adverting consciousness) for the rest of the process, so including the javana cittas." Scott: These 'go by' too quickly for 'thought' I would assume, although you might be calling this process 'thought.' How do you differentiate 'thought' described as above and 'thought' as in the so-called 'ordinary' thought that we all do consciously all the time. The suggestion is that these apparently formed, construed strings of inner monologue about stuff are not the objects of pa~n~naa, but that the infinitessimal 'thought' in the moment is. S: "...As for 'complete thought about the Dhamma', this would involve mulitple mind-door processes..." Scott: And, again, what is the object of pa~n~naa at the level of pariyatti during these 'multiple mind-door processes?' Does pa~n~naa take a 'complete thought' as object? If there is a momentary entity known as 'thought' then what is it exactly? Sarah: "The point I'm stressing is just that there can be reflecting on cittas, cetasikas and rupas with kusala cittas or with akusala cittas, wisely or unwisely, even if the words and the text thought about/recited are 'correct'." Scott: Yes, this I get, but it doesn't clarify about concepts. Scott. #121175 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2011 1:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma and this moment epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Op 7-dec-2011, om 1:00 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > Abhidhamma In Daily Life > What Happen When Death Draws Near > > > Importance Of The Last Minute > > ... the three objects of mind, namely - (a) kamma, (b) kamma > > nimitta and (c) gati nimitta. Here kamma means reflection on good > > or bad deeds done by him in the past. Kamma nimitta... > ------- > N: Thank you for your references. Abhidhamma In Daily Life, may not > be my book. It seems there is another book with that title. That is good to know! > As to > reflection on good or bad deeds, I would be careful with reflection. > Maybe there is no time for reflection! Sure; I honestly didn't look at all the references - I was just impressed that you could search so many sources in one location; and then you can pick and choose the ones that are pertinent - so I think it's a worthwhile resource. However they should have your book, not the other one. :-) "Maybe there is no time for reflection" -- good point; the moment is already over by then. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = #121176 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2011 1:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma and this moment epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Op 7-dec-2011, om 1:00 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > Abhidhamma In Daily Life > What Happen When Death Draws Near > > > Importance Of The Last Minute > > ... the three objects of mind, namely - (a) kamma, (b) kamma > > nimitta and (c) gati nimitta. Here kamma means reflection on good > > or bad deeds done by him in the past. Kamma nimitta... > ------- > N: Thank you for your references. Abhidhamma In Daily Life, may not > be my book. It seems there is another book with that title. That is good to know! > As to > reflection on good or bad deeds, I would be careful with reflection. > Maybe there is no time for reflection! Sure; I honestly didn't look at all the references - I was just impressed that you could search so many sources in one location; and then you can pick and choose the ones that are pertinent - so I think it's a worthwhile resource. However they should have your book, not the other one. :-) "Maybe there is no time for reflection" -- good point; the moment is already over by then. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = #121177 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2011 2:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) moellerdieter Dear Sarah, you wrote: ('D: I think it is important to understand that the first two links are past , as Buddhagosa described it, but accumulated past incl. previous lives up to the present . There is no cut by birth and leaving both behind. Otherwise it would be impossible to abolish avijja , wouldn't it?) ..... S: Avijja and sankhara (kamma) in the past, yes, conditioning birth (and subsequent vipaka) in this life. The past avijja and past kamma have completely gone - even the avijja and kamma of a moment ago has completely gone. Avijja accumulates, conditions all kinds of kamma which brings results and so on. The 3 rounds of kilesa, kamma and vipaka, round and round. It is throught the accumulated development of (present) understanding that avijja is abolished. D: I disagree with avijja (and sankhara /kamma force, the first 2 links) has (ve) completely gone, in fact the 12 links chain of dependent origination describes samsara , not only for this life . Again SN 35,145 : ..'Now what, monks, is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. This is called old kamma."And what is new kamma? Whatever kamma one does now with the body, with speech, or with the intellect: This is called new kamma.' Where would you place avijja in this life if it has gone..? The delusion exists and drives the kamma force, doesn't it? As far as I know, nowhere in the canon is stated that avijja has completey gone..(before enlightenment) I think we agree upon , that avijja is defined by 'absence of knowledge into suffering, its orgination.., its end... and the way to end suffering'. (SN 12,2) Due to the (10) fetters the abolishment of avijja , the development of understanding, penetration into the 4 N.T. , may take many lives depending on accumulation , the limitation to start with stream entry . I ... > S: The khandas refer to all conditioned dhammas. Sankhara khandha includes all cetasikas apart from sanna and vedana which have their own khandhas. So, as Nina stressed, the context for a term is very important > > D: yes, my point is that sankhara khanda , as part of the nama khandas (4th place) , involves momentary volition (in respect to the 6 senses media) ... S: The nama in "4th place" only includes those cetasikas accompanying patisandhi (birth) consciousness and subsequent vipaka cittas in this life. So, yes, at a moment of seeing consciousness, the seven universal cetasikas accompanying seeing are included in "4th place nama", but not those accompanying attachment to that seeing, for example. There is cetana, momentary volition, with every citta, so I agree that this is included. As for the relevance, how about avijja now? Most the day, there's no understanding, no awareness at all of avijja which arises with all unwholesome cittas - i.e. all those javana cittas not involved with dana, sila or bhavana D: The point of not knowing is that we are not aware about , though there is as well the specific aspect of ignorance : not wanting to know . The development of disentchantment , dispassion and so detachment is without doubt hard work of insight practise , isn't it? with Metta Dieter #121178 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2011 4:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] cetasika in daily life - moha moellerdieter Dear Nina, you wrote: N: Defilements, kilesas can refer to all 14 akusala cetasikas. Here kilesa is used in a wide sense. Apart from this, kilesas can refer to a specific group of defilements, ten akusala cetasikas. As you know, there are nine groups such as the aasavas, oghas, yoghas, hindrances, etc. and also kilesas. Not all akusala dhammas are included in each of these groups, because the purpose is emphasizing specific aspects, and these aspects are different for each of these groups. Kilesas in a 'narrower sense' are classified as a group of ten akusala cetasikas with the purpose of showing their power to defile all the accompanying dhammas, including the universals, the particulars and also those four akusala cetasikas not classified as one of the ten kilesas. ------- D: I had a look at Wiki's 'kilesa' presentation and recognize its use in a wide sense.. Do we agree that all kileasa have their roots in lobha, dosa and moha? ( D: It is not clear to me in which way the 10 kilesas are different > in function/ nature from the 10 unwholesome cetasikas , of which > they are identical by name (?) ... so far the kilesas appear to me > as an unnecessary new classification ...(tautological)> ------ N: If you consider each of the nine groups of defilements it may not be so strange to you? They are: 1. cankers, aasavas 2.flood, oghas 3. yokes, yoghas 4. ties, ganthas 5. ways of clinging, up ad anas 6. hindrances, niivaran. as 7. latent tendencies, anusayas 8. fetters, sam. yo janas 9. defilements, kilesas Lobha, for example, occurs in all nine groups, di.t.thi in all groups except the hindrances. Each group can remind us of the danger of akusala. > ------ D: I see ..(though 9. is tautological ;-) ) Well, the list shows that we can go much into details when it comes to states of unwholesome cetasikas. Now, as we are talking about the 4 unwholesome universals , i.e. Moha , Ahirika, Anottappa , Uddhacca, how would you suggest to recognize them as such group , distinguished from the other three groups of unwholesome cetasikas? with Metta Dieter #121179 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2011 4:07 am Subject: no control and justification for akusala truth_aerator Dear all, >But I will do it until understanding dpes away with it, that's the >way it works. I said the other day that your telling me not to do it >has nothing to do with that process, but that was incorrect, I >think. >It could be a condition for kusala abstaining, that's >possible, much >too complex a process to rule any possibility out. >======================================================= Is it me, or does putting too much emphasis on no-control turns into an excuse to continue less-than-ideal behavior? Also, why is it ok not to resist defilements, but not ok to actively do something against them (even if the activity is in application of understanding)? With best wishes, Alex #121180 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2011 5:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -Uddhacca /Restlessness moellerdieter Dear Sarah ,all, you wrote: (D: > Temporarily however , as it is said, the state can avoided by ' attending carefully & appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising..." , which I assume needs inner balance before , i.e. according to instruction, trying to achieve peace within by calming body and mind ( by paying attention to the breathing , see beginning of the Maha Satipatthana Sutta) . .... S: As the commentary to the sutta above makes clear, it is the grabbing of the different branches with attachment that is the problem. Cittas will always arise and fall away experiencing different objects even without attachment. So it is the wise attention, the understanding and awareness when cittas arise and fall away in rapid succession that is being encouraged, not any 'slowing down' or 'focussing' that is being stressed: Note 157: "Spk: By day and by night (rattiyaa ca divasassa ca): This is a genitive in the locative sense, i.e. during the night and during the day. Arises as one thing and ceases as another (a~n~nadeva uppajjati, a~n~na.m nirujjhati): The meaning is that (the mind) that ... arises and ceases during the day is other than (the mind) that arises and ceases during the night. The statement should not be taken to mean snip ...So too, when the mind is roaming through the grove of objects, it cannot be said that it arises without holding to an object; rather, it arises holding to an object of a single kind." D:What is explained here is that the monkey jumps not without holding on an object . Can you find a note about the Buddha's conclusion what has to be done about such restlessness: "The instructed disciple of the noble ones, [however,] attends carefully & appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising" ? ..... S: The kind of peace and serenity as referred to in wiki such as during prayer, yoga, tai chi or stress avoidance or wold peace for that matter has nothing to do with the development of passaddhi, calm, or overcoming of restlessness, uddhacca. As we know, passaddhi arises with all and only wholesome consciousness (and the kiriya cittas of the arahats) and the latter with all and only unwholesome consciousness. D: I was not talking about ' prayer, yoga, tai chi or stress avoidance or wold peace etc. , but emphasize the state of mind , which makes it possible to 'attends carefully & appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising" which is hardly possible with restless jumping. like quoted before :' Denourishing of Restlessness and Remorse There is quietude of mind; frequently giving wise attention to it â€" that is the denourishing of the arising of restlessness and remorse that have not yet arisen, and of the increase and strengthening of restlessness and remorse that have already arisen.' About restlessness , which is mentioned together with worry (kukkucca, ) as one of the 5 hindrances but belonging to another akusala cetasika group : "Abandoning restlessness and anxiety, he dwells undisturbed, his mind inwardly stilled. He cleanses his mind of restlessness and anxiety (, A.N. 9 , 40 )" S:: When the mind is overwhelmed by lobha, by other kilesa, lost in the signs and details, the concepts being attended to, the mind is "possessed by restlessness" - no understanding of what is for anyone's welfare at such times, no wise attention at all. D: yes, unfortunately , restlessness is a habit ..and the moments of tranquillity ( or call it inner peace) rare ..... if we don't seek for it. with Metta Dieter #121181 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2011 5:43 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Uddhacca /Restlessness scottduncan2 Dieter, Regarding: Note 157: "Spk: By day and by night (rattiyaa ca divasassa ca): This is a genitive in the locative sense, i.e. during the night and during the day. Arises as one thing and ceases as another (a~n~nadeva uppajjati, a~n~na.m nirujjhati): The meaning is that (the mind) that...arises and ceases during the day is other than (the mind) that arises and ceases during the night. The statement should not be taken to mean snip ...So too, when the mind is roaming through the grove of objects, it cannot be said that it arises without holding to an object; rather, it arises holding to an object of a single kind." D:"What is explained here is that the monkey jumps not without holding on an object..." Scott: Unclear here. Do you mean to say that mind (citta) holds on to an object somehow after it falls away? The commentary clearly shows that citta does not arise without having an object, and that the object falls away with the falling away of citta. This 'monkey mind' thing is a classically misunderstood notion. You think it refers to 'restlessness' but it simply notes that each moment of consciousness has an object. D: "...Can you find a note about the Buddha's conclusion what has to be done about such restlessness: 'The instructed disciple of the noble ones, [however,] attends carefully & appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising'?..." Scott: You are so hung-up on 'dependent co-arising' that you can't seem to see the forest for the trees. It is in the nature of mind to arise and fall away, having one object after another. What would you do about this? What do you mean 'right there at the dependent co-arising? What is this 'dependent co-arising?' A place? An event? Of what do you think it consists if not naama and ruupa in the moment? Scott. #121182 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2011 5:49 am Subject: Re: no control and justification for akusala scottduncan2 Alex, (This might show up again since it seemed to disappear. If it does, pay as much close attention as you are right now - you need the repetition) A: "Is it me, or does putting too much emphasis on no-control turns into an excuse to continue less-than-ideal behavior?" Scott: It's you. A: "Also, why is it ok not to resist defilements, but not ok to actively do something against them (even if the activity is in application of understanding)?" Scott: Self. Scott. #121183 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2011 6:44 am Subject: Re: no control and justification for akusala truth_aerator Scott, >A: "Also, why is it ok not to resist defilements, but not ok to >actively do something against them (even if the activity is in >application of understanding)?" > > Scott: Self. >========================================================= Why is wholesome activity develops Self perception, while walloping in one's own defilements does not? It seems that it is the other way around. And where did the Buddha ever teach "don't ever do anything or Self will develop... But if you want to act in akusala way, then go right ahead!" With best wishes, Alex #121184 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2011 8:22 am Subject: Re: no control and justification for akusala scottduncan2 Alex, A: "Why is wholesome activity develops Self perception, while walloping in one's own defilements does not? It seems that it is the other way around." Scott: You have stoically been unable to get this point. Must be your accumulations acting up again. You said: "Also, why is it ok not to resist defilements, but not ok to actively do something against them (even if the activity is in application of understanding)?" Scott: In the above, the self-view is totally clear both in the idea that a self can 'not resist defilements' and in the idea that a self can 'actively do something against them.' In your concrete, globalistic, macroscopic way, you actually think in terms of 'I am resisting,' 'I am not resisting,' or 'I am actively doing something.' And you are totally clear about it. This is self-view at it's finest. Always has been for you. A: "And where did the Buddha ever teach 'don't ever do anything or Self will develop... But if you want to act in akusala way, then go right ahead!'" Scott: That, Alex, is just a very silly argument. Scott. #121185 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2011 8:36 am Subject: Re: kamma and this moment kenhowardau Hi all, Sitting here reading and appreciating DSG every day, I have somehow got out of the habit of contributing. There are no excuses for such antisocial behaviour, but I might mention that I am in the throes of starting a new business. After sixty-one years I have finally discovered the work ethic! (Not really.) So instead of silently appreciatively the many threads, I had better actually comment on one: ---- >> Nina: As to reflection on good or bad deeds, I would be careful with reflection. Maybe there is no time for reflection! >> > Rob E: <. . .> good point; the moment is already over by then. ---- KH: I agree too. Everyone *should regularly* reflect on their own behaviour, but not for Abhidhamma purposes - not for purposes of identifying fleeting (trillionth of a second) conditioned dhammas. That would only reflect wrong understanding. Ken H #121186 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2011 9:47 am Subject: Re: kamma and this moment epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > Sitting here reading and appreciating DSG every day, I have somehow got out of the habit of contributing. > > There are no excuses for such antisocial behaviour, but I might mention that I am in the throes of starting a new business. After sixty-one years I have finally discovered the work ethic! (Not really.) Nice to hear from you, Ken. Good to hear the update on what you are doing. > So instead of silently appreciatively the many threads, I had better actually comment on one: > > ---- > >> Nina: As to reflection on good or bad deeds, I would be careful with reflection. Maybe there is no time for reflection! > >> > > > Rob E: <. . .> good point; the moment is already over by then. > ---- > > KH: I agree too. Everyone *should regularly* reflect on their own behaviour, but not for Abhidhamma purposes - not for purposes of identifying fleeting (trillionth of a second) conditioned dhammas. That would only reflect wrong understanding. I think it is interesting to muse over the "conventional" sort of reflection that may lead to better behavior, and the momentary dhamma level, in which there is only time to discern. I agree that both are important in their own realm. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #121187 From: "philip" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2011 12:45 pm Subject: Re: kamma and this moment philofillet Hi Ken > I might mention that I am in the throes of starting a new business. After sixty-one years I have finally discovered the work ethic! (Not really.) That's great, this interests me. I have so many writing/translation/business opportunities here in Japan, but the motivation doesn't arise. But I have a feeling it might someday, and I'll be gone from DSG for awhile. I'll always remember Sarah telling me that when she was starting her tutorial business (or perhaps at a different stage in her work career) she was so busy that her only Dhamma study was a page or so of a book at bedtime before nodding off. But of course by then she knew that there were always opportunities to study Dhamma/dhammas away from the books, and away from discussion. Please radiate your work ethic in the general direction of Japan. Phil #121188 From: "philip" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2011 1:12 pm Subject: Re: no control and justification for akusala philofillet Hi Alex (p.s to all) > Is it me, or does putting too much emphasis on no-control turns into an excuse to continue less-than-ideal behavior? I used to say this too, though I said anatta instead of no-control. I think the error here is assuming that people behave badly. You don't know that. I write rude posts sometimes, but you don't know me and what I am like away from the computer. You don't know anyone. (Well, you and Scott both live in Edmonton, if I'm not mistaken, maybe you have run into each other on a few occasions at Tim Horton's, in line.) I think we all, all of us here, have listened and read Dhamma enough to be sensitive to our conventional behaviour. If there is anyone who is consistently performing gross akusala kamma pattha I would be surprised. But even if that is the case, can it be remedied by wanting it to change? Maybe. But there is no control over that wanting and when it comes and doesn't, that seems pretty clear to me. > Also, why is it ok not to resist defilements, but not ok to actively do something against them (even if the activity is in application of understanding)? It's great to resist defilements, and do something actively against them, but if you think there is control over it and don't *really* accept that it is just dhammas performing functions that indicates tout de suite that it is not "in application of understanding." You will say it is kusala chanda, or whatever, if you are still listening to Thanissaro Bhikkhu and picking up his many catchy metaphors for using self to get rid of self, you won't hear what I'm saying. Something has to click, and I think it might, for you to wake up to how action rooted in self doesn't help in the long run. It makes us feel great when behaviour gets better, that's for sure. Ironically, the condition for that "click" for me wasn't reading here, or hearing A.S talk in Thailand, it wsa reading at Dhammawheel, all the misguided ideas about what Buddhism, all the desire for self-improvement. Something clicked, and I saw through it in myself, and understand that there *must* be detachment from that desire for the DHamma to be understood. You will say that that detachment can only come from panna developed in line with sila > samadhi > panna, and there is no way for me to convince you that that progression doesn't apply unless there is detachment involved, so this post is pretty useless I think. But I am hoping that something will click for you. No further comments, I can't afford to debate with you, it seems that nothing sinks in for some reason, people have written the same explanations for years, and you show no sign of getting it. I'm sure you feel the same way about me and others! Phil p.s I won't respond to Alex's response, I just don't have time, if someone wants to pick up on any of his points, thanks. #121189 From: "philip" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2011 1:38 pm Subject: Three jokes philofillet Hi all Please forgive a few more jokes. It's my Monday and I need a laugh. They aren't mean-spirited jokes, but if you are really touch about jokes making fun of Mahasi and Goenka, please don't read further. Thanks. 1) A Goenka guy and a Mahasi guy walk into a juice bar. The Mahasi guy is moving really, really slowly so that by the time the Goenka guy has ordered his juice, he's only got about a foot into the place. So as the bartender serves the Goenka guy his spirulina juice he takes a good long look at the Mahasi guy,who's about three feet in by now, lifting lifting his feet, and lowering lowering them again, inching forward, this super serene smile on his face. "What's wrong with your friend?" the bartender asks. So the Goenka guy turns and looks at the Mahasi guy, Then he turns back to the bartender, and rolls his eyes. "I know, eh?" he says, lowering his voice so the Mahasi guy can't hear. "I keep telling him not to wear that Dalai Lama T Shirt, but he thinks it gives him more metta." 2) A Goenka guy and a Mahashi guy walk into a juice bar. The Goenka guy hurries up to the bar and orders a spirulina juice, and the bartender serves it, and they talk about about kings and robbers and ministers and this and that, really having a nice time, you know. In the meantime, the Mahasi guy is inching his way along, oh just looking so blissed out and mindful, it's great. Finally the bartender asks the Goenka guy "what about your friend there, should I pour him a juice?" The Goenka guy looks at the Mahashi guy, he looks at him really good, from the crown of his head, down to his feet, and back up again, noting with dispassion any sensations which arise. "He'll have a carrot apple juice," the Goenka guy says, then he looks at the Mahasi guy again, he looks at him nice and careful, from the crown of his head, down to his feet, and back up again, noting with dispassion any sensations that just so happen to arise. "To go." 3) A Mahasi guy was doing his circumambulations one day when he noted "juice bar, juice bar" and "thirsty, thirsty" and "intending, intending" and he basically decides to buy a juice. But then he looks really, really slowly at his watch and notes "running late, running late" so he slowly, slowly looks around to make sure no one is looking and when he notes "coast is clear, coast is clear" he dashes into the juice bar. He hurries up to the juice and says "one carrot apple juice please" but the bartender doesn't even turn around. So the Mahasi guys says it a little louder. "I want a carrot apple juice please!" but the bartender still doesn't turn around. Finally the Mahasi guy gets really irritated. "Hey" he says, almost shouting. "Are you deaf, buddy? I want a juice!" Finally bartender turns around, and gestures to a sign on the wall. The sign says "no sati, no service." Phil #121190 From: "philip" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2011 2:06 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vis. 34 and Tiika philofillet Hi Nina > > Ph: I think there is a derived rupa (one of the aspects of rupa > > rather than rupa that has characteristic to be studied) that is > > "continuity", right? Does this mean that contributes to the > > distorted percept of permanence/continuity, kind of working > > together with sanna, so to speak. (Though it can't be said rupa has > > a function..) > > > ------- > N: The four lakkha.na ruupas are origination of ruupa, development or > continuation of ruupa (santati ruupa), decay of ruupa (jarataa > ruupaa), falling away of ruupa (aniccataa ruupa). > > Origination and decay just indicate moments that ruupa has arisen > > and not yet fallen away. > > > These moments are extremely short, but someone with wrong view will > apply his view to anything in the world. Ph: I like this from your book on Rupa, p.8: First a quote from Vism: "The air element that courses through all the limbs and has the characteristic of moving and distending, being founded upon earth, held together by water, and maintained by fire, distends this body. And this body, being distended by the latter kind of air, does not collapse, but stands erect, and being propelled by the other (moving) air, it shows intimation, and it flexes and extends and it wriggles the hands and feet, doing so in the postures comprising walking, standing, sitting, and lyind down. So this mechanism of elements carries on like a magic trick, deceiving foolish people with the male and female sex and so on." Then you add: "We are deceived and infatuated by the outward appearance of a man or a woman, and we forget that this body is a "mechanism of elements" and that it flexes and wriggles hands and feet , showing intimation by gestures or speech, because of conditions." I guess my question is, is there something intrinsic in the nature of rupa, or the functions of rupa (I posted before that rupa doesn't have functions, but I see now that it does according to textual definitions) that contribute to distorted perceptions? Rupa just rises and falls away in a moment. Isn't the distortion and avijja all about nama that doesn't understand properly? I don't know if that is clear. In passing, an unlrelated question. Seeing consciousness is the only citta that sees. So how do other cittas in the eye door process cognize the visual object? With body sense or smell or taste it is easier to understand, because the object seems to impinge in a more direct way on the door. But visual object? That is difficult to understand. As always, put this to the back of your "to respond to" list, Nina, there are so many posts for you these days. Phil #121191 From: "philip" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2011 2:10 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vis. 34 and Tiika philofillet Hi again >With body sense or smell or taste it is easier to understand, because the object seems to impinge in a more direct way on the door. No, I am thinking of body sense here, there is no reason to think that a smell impinges on the nose more directly than visual object impinges on the eye...or is there? Phil #121192 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2011 11:54 am Subject: Mind is the Maker! bhikkhu5 Friends: Mind is the Maker and the Creator! The blessed Buddha once said: Mind precedes and initiates all phenomena! Mind is their chief, mind is their maker... When one speaks or performs an action with a mind, that is internally all pure, then happiness and pleasure follows, like a shadow that never departs... Dhammapada 1 Difficult to detect and very subtle, mind can seize and take up any object, so let any wise being guard the mind, for a guarded mind brings happiness... Dhammapada 36 Neither mother, nor father, nor any other family member can do greater good, both for oneself and for others as well, than the well directed & well controlled mind... Dhammapada 43 What is Mind ? Mind is an ever repeating cycle sequence of: Contact1 => Feeling1 + Perception1 => Intention1 => Attention1 redirected => New Contact2 => Feeling2 + Perception2 => Intention2 => Attention2 => etc. Stilling this cycle produces Peace and Bliss! This serene Tranquillity is called: Nibbâna ! <.... Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #121193 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2011 5:08 pm Subject: Re: Three jokes epsteinrob Hi Phil... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi all > > Please forgive a few more jokes. It's my Monday and I need a laugh. They aren't mean-spirited jokes, but if you are really touch about jokes making fun of Mahasi and Goenka, please don't read further. Thanks. I don't know where you're getting these from, but in honor of your great sense of humor, I decided to offer a quick Abhidhamma joke: 1. How many Abhidhammikas does it take to change a lightbulb? Answer: None. The lightbulb will change or not change depending on arising conditions, without anyone doing anything. BTW, I don't know a whole lot about Mahasi, but in all of the references I have had to his work, there's been nothing about the super-slow noting meditation of walking, etc. that you keep playing off of. Mahasi is famous for emphasizing satipatthana practice in sitting meditation and using mental noting, and focusing on the rising and falling of the breath in the belly, rather than the nose-tip. He taught the slow walking meditation as well, but that is not his invention. It's a staple of the Theravadin monastic tradition, often used to break up sitting periods. And it is not the main practice that Mahasi taught. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - #121194 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 8, 2011 8:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) nilovg Dear Dieter, Just taking one sentence out of your mail to Sarah. Op 7-dec-2011, om 16:02 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > D: The point of not knowing is that we are not aware about , though > there is as well the specific aspect of ignorance : not wanting to > know . > The development of disentchantment , dispassion and so detachment > is without doubt hard work of insight practise , isn't it? -------- N: Insight together with all perfections. I would like to stress again and again the connection with the perfections the Bodhisatta developed and all of us should develop. They all help to cling less to the self. Did you see Kh Sujin's book on the perfections? I think they are essential, without them we cannot reach the goal. Disenchantment, nekkhamma, is among them. And patience! Patience to listen, consider, develop. And viriya, never becoming discouraged, persevere. On line you can get the book from Zolag, but if you like, I can send you the book. Nina. #121195 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 8, 2011 8:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Another ADL, was:kamma and this moment nilovg Dea Rob E and all, Op 7-dec-2011, om 15:29 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > Abhidhamma In Daily Life > What Happen When Death Draws Near > > > > Importance Of The Last Minute > > > ... the three objects of mind, namely - (a) kamma, (b) kamma > > > nimitta and (c) gati nimitta. Here kamma means reflection on good > > > or bad deeds done by him in the past. Kamma nimitta... > > ------- > > N: Thank you for your references. Abhidhamma In Daily Life, may not > > be my book. It seems there is another book with that title. ------- N: The other ADL: a translation of a Birmese book that took the same title. This is from 1997. Here is the correspondance: ----- Nina. #121196 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 12:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Three jokes upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 12/8/2011 1:08:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: BTW, I don't know a whole lot about Mahasi, but in all of the references I have had to his work, there's been nothing about the super-slow noting meditation of walking, etc. that you keep playing off of. Mahasi is famous for emphasizing satipatthana practice in sitting meditation and using mental noting, and focusing on the rising and falling of the breath in the belly, rather than the nose-tip. He taught the slow walking meditation as well, but that is not his invention. It's a staple of the Theravadin monastic tradition, often used to break up sitting periods. And it is not the main practice that Mahasi taught. =================================== Not the main practice of his, but certainly taught. For example, at _http://www.tathagata.org/DhammaTalks/Instructions/Mahasi_Instruction.html_ (http://www.tathagata.org/DhammaTalks/Instructions/Mahasi_Instruction.html) , you will see the following: _________________________ When making bodily movements, the yogi should do so gradually as if he were a weak invalid, gently moving the arms and legs, bending or stretching them, bending down the head and bringing it up. All these movements should be made gently. When rising from the sitting posture, he should do so gradually, noting as `rising, rising.' When straightening up and standing, note as `standing, standing'. When looking here and there, note as `looking, seeing'. When walking note the steps, whether they are taken with the right or the left foot. You must be aware of all the successive movements involved, from the raising of, the foot to the dropping of it. Note each step taken, whether with the right foot or the left foot. This is the manner of noting when one walks fast. It will be enough if you note thus when walking fast and walking some distance. When walking slowly or doing the cankama walk (walking up and down), three movements should be noted in each step: when the foot is raised, when it is pushed forward, and when it is dropped. Begin with noting the raising and dropping movements. One must be properly aware of the raising of the foot. Similarly, when the foot is dropped, one should be properly aware of the `heavy' falling of the foot. One must walk, noting as `raising, dropping' with each step. This noting will become easier after about two days. Then go on to noting the three movements as described above, as `raising, pushing forward, dropping'. In the beginning, it will suffice to note one or two movements only, thus `right step, left step' when walking fast and `raising, dropping' when walking slowly. If when walking thus, you want to sit down, note as 'wanting to sit down, wanting to sit down.' When actually sitting down, note concentratedly the `heavy' falling of your body. ____________________________ The main aspect of his meditation teaching that I object to, and that, BTW, so did Bhante Henepola Gunaratana, is Mahasi's "noting," which Gunaratana considers, as do I, to be thinking as opposed to mere observing. The intent of the noting practice of Mahasi's is to depersonalize thinking by, for example, replacing "I am breathing in" by "breathing in," but as I see the matter, that is still conceptualizing and replacing knowing by thinking, whereas there should be just the knowing of the sensations. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #121197 From: "philip" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 12:50 am Subject: Re: Three jokes philofillet Hi Rob E > BTW, I don't know a whole lot about Mahasi, but in all of the references I have had to his work, there's been nothing about the super-slow noting meditation of walking, etc. that you keep playing off of. I listened to Mahasi related talks a lot, and there is a lot of good Abhidhamma content. The slow moving thing is an unfortunate perversion of their reading of the commentary to the satipatthana sutta, I guess, in which - as you know - there are detailed references to the paramattha processes involved in walking, etc. They try to capture it through intentional practice. A dear friend was a devotee and worked as an assistant in retreats, she almost collapsed from exhaustion and malnourishment because of the slow eating thing, combined with her retreat duties. They also make claims about being able to move through stages of vipassana nana by following this form of "satipatthana meditaiton." (with the sitting at the forefront, of course.) I remember hearing a teacher tell the students that he wanted to tell them about something but they wouldn't be able to understand it just from a 10 day retreat, they'd need a 40 day retreat to get it. As for Goenka, I don't know as much, but when I did a google search I found scary forums where people asked about pre-stream and post-stream practices, they honestly believe they can get stream entry by going to these retreats. Anyways, I think I am joked out now, thanks for having tolerated my silliness. Writing them was fun, time to get back to work on my various stillborn projects instead of irritating people here! Phil #121198 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 4:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -Uddhacca /Restlessness moellerdieter Hi Scott ,(all) it is nice to know that you read my postings .. would be even nicer to learn that you try to understand my (angle of ) view without bringing 'the tank in position..' ;-) B.T.W. , why shouldn't I ask you a question, I stumbled upon .. possibly you may help me with an answer ? : I can't find Metta within the 52 Cetasikas , but suspect it may stand behind Adosa . Would you say that is correct ? If not , where else to find the state of 'all embrassing kindness' (Nyanatiloka), or ' kindly thought, a heart full of love D i.167; iii.237; Sn 507;to be friendly or sympathize with, friendly, benevolent, kind as adj. at D iii.191 , sympathetic, showing love towards It 22 ' (all for Metta ,see Pali Text Society) ? you wrote: ( ...So too, when the mind is roaming through the grove of objects, it cannot be said that it arises without holding to an object; rather, it arises holding to an object of a single kind." D:"What is explained here is that the monkey jumps not without holding on an object...") Scott: Unclear here. Do you mean to say that mind (citta) holds on to an object somehow after it falls away? The commentary clearly shows that citta does not arise without having an object, and that the object falls away with the falling away of citta. D: you are right, my sentence is unclear. The monkey (mind) wouldn't be able to jump(arise) from branch(object) to branch (next object,ceasing of the former) ,without holding to it between . This is obvious , but the issue of the note seemed to me concerning what is known , the citta (=being aware, sati) during each holding. S: This 'monkey mind' thing is a classically misunderstood notion. You think it refers to 'restlessness' but it simply notes that each moment of consciousness has an object. D: see below (D: "...Can you find a note about the Buddha's conclusion what has to be done about such restlessness: 'The instructed disciple of the noble ones, [however,] attends carefully & appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising'?...") Scott: You are so hung-up on 'dependent co-arising' that you can't seem to see the forest for the trees. It is in the nature of mind to arise and fall away, having one object after another. What would you do about this? What do you mean 'right there at the dependent co-arising? What is this 'dependent co-arising?' A place? An event? Of what do you think it consists if not naama and ruupa in the moment? D. the note (Sarah's quotation of the commentary , see the previous posting ) did not treat the subject I had in mind , therefore I asked for another note Regarding 'You are so hung-up on 'dependent co-arising' that you can't seem to see the forest for the trees' , to me it seems that you miss the context . The monkey mind issue and its relation to Dependent Origination is treated in the Assutava Sutta , SN XII, 61) following the text ( trl. by K.Nizamis) , which I ask you to study a bit before we talk about restlessness and D.O. again ( B.T.W. Jon and I had a discussion about the issue ' monkey mind ' already , possibly filed under this heading) with Metta Dieter Assutavā Sutta: The Spiritually-Unlearned Thus it has been heard by me. On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Sāvatthi in the Jeta Forest in the private park owned by Anāthapiṇḍika. There the Blessed one addressed the monks thus: ‘Monks!’ Those monks responded thus: ‘Blessed One!’ The Blessed One said this: “Monks, the ordinary person, [1] unlearned in spiritual knowledge, [2] might grow weary of, might become detached from, might become released from this physical body made up of the four great elements. What is the reason for this? Because, monks, apparent are the increase and the decrease, the taking up and the putting down, [3] of this physical body made up of the four great elements. For that reason, the ordinary person, in every way unlearned in spiritual knowledge, might grow weary, might become detached, might become released. “But, indeed, that which, monks, is called ‘mind’, or ‘thought’, or ‘consciousness’, [4] the ordinary person, in every way unlearned in spiritual knowledge, not enough to turn away, not enough to become detached, not enough to be released. What is the reason for this? Because for a long time, monks, that ‘mind’, or ‘thought’, or ‘consciousness’ of the ordinary person, in every way unlearned in spiritual knowledge, has been clung to, has been cherished, has been fondled: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self’. Because of that, the ordinary person, in every way unlearned in spiritual knowledge, not enough to turn away, not enough to become detached, not enough to be released. “Better, monks, to let the ordinary person, in all ways unlearned in spiritual knowledge, proceed from the assumption that the self is this physical body made up of the four great elements, rather than mind. [5] What is the reason for this? This physical body, Monks, comprising the four great elements, is seen standing for one rainy season, standing for two rainy seasons,... for three... four... five... ten... twenty... thirty... forty... fifty... standing for a hundred or more rainy seasons. “But, indeed, that which, monks, is called ‘mind’, or ‘thought’, or ‘consciousness’, that, by night and by day, as other, indeed, arises, as other ceases. [6] Just as, monks, a monkey in the mountain-side forests, moving itself, [7] grasps a branch, then releasing that, grasps another, then releasing that, grasps another; even so, indeed, monks, that which is called ‘mind’, or ‘thought’, or ‘consciousness’: that, by night and by day, as other, indeed, arises, as other ceases. “Therein, monks, the noble disciple, learned in spiritual knowledge, properly and legitimately cognizes [8] just dependent co-arising, thus: ‘In the event of the being of this, there is (also) this; from the arising of this, this (also) arises. In the event of the non-being of this, there is (also) not this. From the cessation of this, this (also) ceases.’ “Which is this: ‘From ignorance as condition, the formative mental functions; [9] from the formative mental functions as condition, sensory consciousness; from sensory consciousness as condition, name-and-form; from name-and-form as condition, the six sense bases; from the six sense bases as condition, contact; from contact as condition, sensation; from sensation as condition, craving; from craving as condition, clinging; from clinging as condition, being; from being as condition, birth; from birth as condition, old age and death, grief, lamentation, suffering, distress and tribulation all together come to be. Thus there is the rise of this whole complex of suffering. “‘But from the fading away and cessation, without any trace remaining, of ignorance, there is the cessation of the formative mental functions; from the cessation of the formative mental functions, the cessation of sensory consciousness; from the cessation of sensory consciousness, the cessation of name-and-form; from the cessation of name-and-form, the cessation of the six sense bases; from the cessation of the six sense bases, the cessation of contact; from the cessation of contact, the cessation of sensation; from the cessation of sensation, the cessation of craving; from the cessation of craving, the cessation of clinging; from the cessation of clinging, the cessation of being; from the cessation of being, the cessation of birth; from the cessation of birth, old age and death, grief, lamentation, suffering, distress and tribulation cease. Thus there is the cessation of this whole complex of suffering.’ “Seeing thus, monks, a noble disciple, learned in spiritual knowledge, grows weary and turns away [10] from material form; grows weary and turns away from feelings; grows weary and turns away from perceptions; grows weary and turns away from formative functions; grows weary and turns away from sensory consciousness. Having grown weary and having turned away, he detaches; from detachment, he is released; from being released, there is the knowledge: ‘Released.’ He understands: ‘Destroyed is birth; the holy life has been fulfilled; what had to be done has been done; no coming back again to being-here [11]’.” #121199 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 5:30 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -Uddhacca /Restlessness scottduncan2 Dieter, D: "...you are right, my sentence is unclear. The monkey (mind) wouldn't be able to jump(arise) from branch(object) to branch (next object, ceasing of the former), without holding to it between . This is obvious , but the issue of the note seemed to me concerning what is known, the citta (=being aware, sati) during each holding..." Scott: Citta does not 'hold' it's object after it falls away. Citta takes a new object. In the javana series, which you may be referring to, I believe it is the same object is the subject of the succession of cittas. There is no 'holding to it between.' Sati is a mental factor. It arises with citta. It takes the same object as citta. It would be whichever object is being taken by citta at a given moment - a given moment that *is* 'the holding.' Scott.