#122400 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 1:07 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti epsteinrob Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., > > R: "You've got it backwards, the phenomenologist sees the trees and does not acknowledge an overall forest..." > > Scott: Why do you focus on 'process' then? I don't even know what that question means. "Process" is not a weird word to me - it just means the way that something occurs, or the mechanics of how it occurs. If sati understands an object, or vittakha probes an object, that *is* the process involved. I don't understand why "process" is so terrible in your mind. It's just a mechanical term. I don't focus on process - I acknowledge that certain things happen and that this is how something else takes place. When it comes to single cittas arising and falling away *completely,* I think that is less significantly *complete* than you do, because of the constant handing off of accumulations and tendencies from one citta to the other. This little mechanism that takes place means that all the significant stuff from citta A does in fact survive its falling away. So what is the significance then of it falling away *completely,* when everything it was up to is handed off and passed on. I see this as kind of a weird contradiction that you then emphasize complete falling away, as if passing on of accumulations, which is the modus operandi for both samsara and the path to exist, was some side-issue which had no bearing on the complete independent arising and falling of each citta. That is where we hit the argument about process. I think the procession of tendencies and accumulations, which go inexorably from citta to citta, is equally significant to the fact that one citta arises and falls away at a time. That is the *process* by which everything that is spoken about in Abhidhamma takes place. If rupas all arise in a certain kind of grouping, that is a *process.* If conditions of a certain kind give rise to a certain kind of citta arising, that is a *process.* So all the things that you talk about anyway is what I mean by process. > R: "...If they are timeless and not created by citta, how do they come to exist and in what way do they exist? If they don't arise, how do they become objects of thought?" > > Scott: Time-freed, Rob, not 'timeless.' You think, don't you? What is going on then? Well that's a good question. I don't think there is such a thing as a "concept" that neither arises nor falls because it is "time-freed," and at the same time doesn't exist. I think that's a weird way to talk about something that doesn't exist at all, and is just a fabrication of thought. If that is all that's meant by all that, then I think the terminology is misleading. It suggests something that is transcendent to the flow of time, not something that is merely a product of thought, which after all takes place within the flow of time. There's no 'time-freed' realm where objects of thought live outside of time as far as I know. When you say that citta doesn't create pannati, and I ask what does create it, or how does it exist, you don't answer, you just ask me how I experience it. Well I experience it as part of the thought, and an aspect of the occurrence of thinking as it takes place. When thought takes place it has this or that set of concepts within it. It's not something separate from thought except in so far as thought thinks it is. All that "content" occurs when so-called "thinking" takes place, but I'll be damned if I can separate "thought" from "thinking." That seems like a pretty conceptual task in its own right. Signed, "the cittas formerly known as Rob E." - - - - - - - - - #122401 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 1:20 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "...I don't think there is such a thing as a 'concept' that neither arises nor falls because it is 'time-freed,'..." Scott: Finally. Scott. #122402 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 1:47 pm Subject: Re: On understanding & action truth_aerator Scott, I am sorry if I cannot explain it better. Wanting as in lobha, is different from "wanting" (chanda, aditthana, viriya) Nibbana. Alex #122403 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 1:52 pm Subject: Re: On understanding & action scottduncan2 Alex, A: "I am sorry if I cannot explain it better. Wanting as in lobha, is different from 'wanting' (chanda, aditthana, viriya) Nibbana." Scott: Yes, I can list mental factors too, Alex. As far as Nibbaana goes, it's like 'meditation:' You know you waaaant it. Scott. #122404 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 2:15 pm Subject: Re: On understanding & action truth_aerator Scott, >Scott: Yes, I can list mental factors too, Alex. As far as Nibbaana >goes, it's like 'meditation:' You know you waaaant it. >======== You can read my mind even before I can even think it... Incredible! Alex #122405 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 2:37 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti epsteinrob Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., > > R: "...I don't think there is such a thing as a 'concept' that neither arises nor falls because it is 'time-freed,'..." > > Scott: Finally. Oh, please, Scott, why don't you just dry up. Stick to torturing patients. Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - #122406 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 6:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On understanding & action nilovg Dear Dieter (Rob K at end), Op 5-feb-2012, om 17:35 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > > N: Thinking of past defilements does not help us to understand > > >precisely the characteristic of a particular defilement when it > > >appears. > > D: having the cetasika project in mind , I am not sure whether I > understand you correctly. > In order to discern the (52) states of mind , we need a knowledge > by which we can identify a particular defilement /unwholesome > cetasika. > ------- N: This is still theoretical knowledge, which is certainly useful as a foundation for satipa.t.thaana. This does not mean that you have to try to 'catch' all those cetasikas. We learn about them and we gain more understanding that they are conditioned dhammas, and this will prevent us from trying to ctach them, pinpoint them. Utterly impossible, since they all arise because of their own conditions. Also sati sampaja~n~na arises because of its own conditions. Let pa~n~naa work its way, let us not interfere. ------- > > D: It is only by way of recalling past experiences that we > recognize a pattern when a particular defilement (re-) appears . > ------ N: This is thinking about what has gone already. Not the development of understanding what appears at the present moment. But one may have conditions to think in this way, and then thinking can be understood as a conditioned naama, not my thinking. Most often we think without realizing that not we but citta thinks of an object. Your remark reminds me of this, it is so good to discuss matters. -------- > > D: For example anger , a state of dosa cetasika ,' nama -rupa > geared up ready to battle' . ( Typical is the fast in- and out > breathing , so the wellknown advise to take a deep breath , calm > down .. ). > ------ N: I know about this advice, and it may help for a moment not to speak angrily. But sometimes there are conditions for a deep breath, sometimes not, simply no time. The angry words are spoken already. This shows us that whatever happens is dependent on conditions. ------- > > D: Until such knowledge isn't established the appearance of a > particular defilements conditions its usual unwholesome action/habit . > If we know by heart such cetasika will arise and cease without > major impact... in that way we understand precisely , don't we? > ------- N: It is not a matter of knowing by heart or thinking about cetasikas. What I learnt is that in the beginning naama has to be known as naama, different from ruupa, and this is the first stage of tender insight. It has to be clearly known what naama is, the dhamma that experiences an object, different from ruupa that does not experience anything. When there is not clear understanding of the reality of naama how can we know the characteristic of a defilement? Rob K had once a very good discussion with Kh Sujin about awareness of dosa. She explained that direct awareness of a reality as naama is necessary first. Direct awareness and precise understanding of the characteristic of a cetasika like dosa is possible later on. N: If we think we are aware of dosa it is merely thinking and labelling. Perhaps Rob K can reproduce this discussion? I myself find it a difficult area. ------- Nina. > #122407 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 8:45 am Subject: Without Fear! bhikkhu5 Friends: Overcoming Fear for a Bad Destiny! Once in Savatth i the Blessed Buddha said this: Bhikkhus, any Noble Disciple, who possesses four things has transcended all fear of any bad future destination. What four? 1: Here, any Noble Disciple possesses confirmed confidence in the Buddha thus: Worthy, honourable & perfectly self-Enlightened is the Buddha! Consummated in knowledge & behaviour, totally transcended, expert in all dimensions, knower of all worlds, unsurpassable trainer of those who can be tamed, teacher & guide of gods as well as of humans, blessed, exalted, awakened & enlightened is the Buddha!!! 2: Any Noble Disciple possesses confirmed confidence in the Dhamma thus: Perfectly formulated is this Buddha-Dhamma, visible right here & now, immediately effective, timeless, inviting each & everyone to come and see for themselves, inspect, examine & verify. Leading each & everyone through progress towards perfection. Directly observable, experiencable & realizable by each intelligence... 3: Any Noble Disciple possesses confirmed confidence in the Sangha thus: Perfectly training is this Noble Sangha community of the Buddha's Noble disciples: Training the right way, the true way, the good way, the direct way! Therefore do these 8 kinds of individuals, these 4 Noble pairs, deserve both gifts, self-sacrifice, offerings, hospitality and reverential salutation with joined palms, since this Noble Sangha community of the Buddha's Noble disciples, is an unsurpassable & forever unsurpassed field of merit, in this world, for this world, to respect, and protect... 4: Any Noble Disciple possesses the Morality esteemed by the Noble ones: Unbroken, untorn, unspotted, freeing, praised by the good, inducing concentration! Any Noble Disciple, who possesses these four things has transcended and gone all beyond all fear of a bad destination, rightly beyond all fear of a painful future... <.....> Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikâya. [V:364] section 55: Sotâpattisamyutta. Thread 14: Bad Destination... Without Fear! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <....> #122408 From: Sukinder Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 7:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti sukinderpal Hi Rob E, Scott, This is a bit too philosophical and I'm not sure if I am thinking about it correctly. But allow me to butt in and express myself. Rob E: > > Well that's a good question. I don't think there is such a thing as a > "concept" that neither arises nor falls because it is "time-freed," > and at the same time doesn't exist. I think that's a weird way to talk > about something that doesn't exist at all, and is just a fabrication > of thought. If that is all that's meant by all that, then I think the > terminology is misleading. It suggests something that is transcendent > to the flow of time, not something that is merely a product of > thought, which after all takes place within the flow of time. > Perhaps you are forgetting that time itself is a concept, but one which is based on the rising and falling away of nama and rupa. Concepts in general do not rise and fall away because unlike nama and rupa, they do not exist. But concepts do become objects of consciousness, so when suggesting that they are "time-freed" this has nothing to do with any kind of transcendence, but just pointing out their unreality. Same with Nibbana, although this is a reality, it being time-freed does not have anything to do with transcendence, but that it does not rise and fall away as conditioned realities do. Time is not a reality, only nama and rupa and Nibbana are. Metta, sukin #122409 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 8:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concepts. was Pariyatti. nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 5-feb-2012, om 21:57 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > I guess what I am wondering about is how a concept is actually > entertained, given that an individual citta only arises for one > moment and falls away. So if I am forming the sentence mentally: > "Dhammas are all anatta," that cannot be constructed in one citta, > I assume. It would have to be taken up by successive cittas with > sanna and other cetasikas remembering and putting together each > part to finally form the whole concept. Is that correct, or are > whole concepts entertained in a single moment? ------ N: There are many processes of cittas and in each process several cittas take one object at a time. In the case of seeing, colour is experienced, and then thinking of the meaning of different letters by cittas arising in other processes. Sense-door processes and mind-door processes alternate all the time. They are all accompanied by sa~n~naa and thus there is remembrance of a whole picture. The same happens when someone speaks out loud: all dhammas are anatta. A sound, then another process of cittas experiencing sound through the mind-door, then another process that knows the meaning, etc. In fact countless processes of cittas arising and falling away. Sa`n~naa remembers the meaning of the whole sentence. Cittas are translating different colours and sounds into meaning. ------- > > R: Also if I am speaking and understanding conceptually what I am > saying, during the time that I say "Dhammas are all anatta" out > loud, or during the time that I type it out, I have many many rupas > arising and many cittas have to arise to keep track and be aware of > all of them to put together a single sensible sentence. So I am > wondering how this takes place, and how the meaning of an act of > speech is understood by citta. ------- N: We cannot keep track of all such processes of cittas. It is not useful, since it is thinking, not awareness and right understanding. It reminds us how fast cittas are, beyond control. All that matters now: know one naama or one ruupa at a time as it appears through one doorway. This is the way to eventually understand anattaa. Now we do not know what the mind-door is, but at the first stage of insight it is known. Insight knowledge knows naama and ruupa through the mind-door. --------- Nina. #122410 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Feb 7, 2012 12:14 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti ptaus1 Hi RobE (Scott), Could we please tone it down a bit guys. Thanks for your cooperation. Best wishes pt --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Scott. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > > > Rob E., > > > > R: "...I don't think there is such a thing as a 'concept' that neither arises nor falls because it is 'time-freed,'..." > > > > Scott: Finally. > > Oh, please, Scott, why don't you just dry up. Stick to torturing patients. > > Rob E. #122411 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 7, 2012 2:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 31-jan-2012, om 18:08 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > > N: this is mine , this I am, this is myself. These expressions have > been explained respectively as: lobha without wrong view, lobha > with conceit, lobha with di.t.thi. They are different moments. > > D: lobha without wrong view ? That would be a suprise to me ..any > quotation available? > -------- N: It arises all the time in daily life, even now. When pleasant objects are experienced through the senses, lobha is bound to arise, even during the sense-door process when very little is known about the object. It arises by accumulations. No special view of myself, of eternalism or annihilism. In the Abhidhamma there are eight types of cittas rooted in lobha classified and four of these are without wrong view, di.t.thigata vippayutta. See Dhammasangani 400. The third type: "When a bad thought has arisen which is accompamnied by gladness and disconnected with view and opinions..." -------- > > > N: Abhidhamma's treatment of the D.O. is in complete agreement with > the suttanta treatment. > > D: you mean treatment by 'The Modes of Depency ' Paccayakana > Vibhanga ? pls see page 61 ff > https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.dhammikaweb.com/wp- > content/uploads/2010/09/ > Nyanatiloka_Guide_through_the_Abhidhamma.pdf&embedded=true > (first impression : too many modes for a practical approach) > ------- N: I could not make out p. 61. Never mind, but there never is a contradiction. > > N: N: First it has to be thoroughly known what naama is, what ruupa > > is, and their characterstics have to be clearly distinguished. > > --------- > > > > D: I noted this emphases, however the priority isn't yet clear to me > ------- N: The dependent origination deals with the conditional arising of naama and ruupa. How could one begin to study this, if the characteristics of naama and ruupa are not clearly known? ------ > ------ > N: Take the characteristic of impermanence, this cannot be > thoroughly known so long as we take naama and ruupa as a whole, > that is, when > they are not clearly distinguished. It has to be known precisely: > what arises and falls away. > Do insist if this is not clear yet, it is an important point. > > D: I see , those characteristics we know from the Maha Satipatthana > Sutta , i.e. the 4 foundations of mindfulness > ------- N : All realities of daily life: seeing, colour, hearing, sound, they are all different. We take seeing and colour together, do not really distinguish them. We take hearing and sound together. We are thoroughly mixed up. ------ > > N: Micchaa di.t.thi includes all kinds of wrong view, there are > many kinds and many degrees. > > D: we use ditthi already for wrong view (, sorry to be stubborn > with the terms ) , it would make sense to me if ditthi is used for > views not included within the Buddha-Dhamma and micca ditthi to > emphasise opposition . Sutta context may show.. > ------ N: Sometimes micchaadi.t.thi is used, sometimes di.t.thi when it is clear within the context. Otherwise people may confuse it with di.t.thi that stands for sammaa-di.t.thi. ------- > > N: Understanding the law of kamma, this may be only theoretical. > From > the first stage of tender insight on there is understanding of > > kamma and vipaaka. Before that one does not clearly realize what > is > vipaaka, since naama is not yet known as naama. > > D: you mean a clear realiziation of nama (rupa) is the forerunner > for the understanding of wholesome action by body, speech and > thought (kamma patha) ? > ------ N: Seeing is vipaakacitta, but when there is no direct understanding of seeing as naama we do not know much about vipaaka. Vipaaka is the result of kamma that is also naama. Kusala and akusala are naamas different from each other, and different from vipaaka. So long as we do not have direct understanding of naama when it appears, we are groping in the dark. Theoretical understanding is useful but it does not go very deep. ------ Nina. > #122412 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Feb 7, 2012 3:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti moellerdieter Hi pt and all, I wonder why you singled out RobE 's mail in your address , vaguely remembering stronger comments in this exchange. Using the opportunity of complaint , I think that the hostility in (recent) messages towards my postings is spoiling the benefit of common Dhamma study. If there is no change , I shall follow Howard and unsubscribe. with Metta Dieter ----- Original Message ----- From: ptaus1 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 2:14 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti Hi RobE (Scott), Could we please tone it down a bit guys. Thanks for your cooperation. Best wishes pt --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Scott. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > > > Rob E., > > > > R: "...I don't think there is such a thing as a 'concept' that neither arises nor falls because it is 'time-freed,'..." > > > > Scott: Finally. > > Oh, please, Scott, why don't you just dry up. Stick to torturing patients. > > Rob E. #122413 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 7, 2012 5:59 am Subject: Reminder dsgmods Friends, A reminder from the Guidelines: For the smooth running of the list and the benefit of all, the following is the code of practice that we ask all members to observe. 1. Stay friendly and pleasant when writing to the list. Please avoid any sarcasm, discourtesy or overly personal remarks. 2. Betolerant of others' views and opinions, no matter how off-base they may seem to you. **** Any further comments or complaints, off-list please Jon & Sarah #122414 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Feb 7, 2012 8:09 am Subject: Today is Navam Poya Day! bhikkhu5 Friends: How to be a Real Buddhist through Observance? Navam Poya day is the full-moon of February. This sacred day celebrates the ordination of the Buddha Gotama's main disciples S â riputta and Mah â Moggall â na . On this day Buddha also later decides his Parinibbâna . The death moment of the Buddha, where he enters Nibbâna (Sanskrit Nirvâna)...! On such Full-Moon Uposatha Poya Observance days: Any Lay Buddhist simply joins the Three Refuges and undertakes the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed, shaved, white-clothed, with clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, and bows first three times, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees & head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms at the heart, one recites these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice: As long as this life lasts: I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. I hereby seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. I hereby request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. I will hereby respect these Three Jewels the rest of my life! I accept to respect & undertake these 5 training rules: I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Dishonesty. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. As long as this life lasts, I am thus protected by these 5 precepts... Then, one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own eyes & children!, since they protect you & all other beings much better than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in & to this world! So is the start towards Nibbâna: The Deathless Element! This is the Noble Way to Peace, to Freedom, to Ease, to Happiness, initiated by Morality , developed further by Dhamma-Study and fulfilled by training of Meditation ... Navam Poya day relic parade at Gangaramaya Temple , Colombo . Today indeed is Pooya or Uposatha or observance day, where any lay Buddhist normally keeps even the Eight Precepts from sunrise until the next dawn... If any wish an official recognition by the Bhikkhu-Sangha, they may simply forward the lines starting with "I hereby ..." signed with name, date, town, & country to me or join here . A public list of this new quite rapidly growing global Saddhamma-Sangha is set up here! The New Noble Community of Buddha's Disciples: The Saddhamma Sangha: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Saddhamma_Sangha.htm Can quite advantageously be Joined Here: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Sangha_Entry.htm May your journey hereby be light, swift, and sweet. Never give up !! For Details on The Origin of Uposatha Observance Days: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html Navam Poya Day! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net #122415 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Feb 7, 2012 12:01 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 sakkayaditthi kenhowardau Hi Dieter and Nina, --------------- <. . .> > D: About 100 years ago we had a small but close Theravada community in Germany.. which broke apart due to the so-called Anatta Controversy. Reason: the proposition of a transcendental self , claiming that the Buddha only stated that no self can be found within the khandas (i.e. not excluding the' true self ' beyond) . I haven't read Ven. Thanissaro's comments in detail , but in general I consider the idea of a transcendental self to offer a backdoor for the self deluded mind. ------------------ KH: I am glad to hear it. I have sympathy for Theravada communities like the one you mentioned. Until recently, most of the ancient commentaries were unavailable to the non-Pali speaking world, and without them the Dhamma would have been incredibly hard to understand. We need to understand how there can be 'no sufferer' but still be a 'way out of suffering.' And I think that is why people who had no access to the commentaries had to invent theories of a transcendental sufferer; they couldn't see any other explanation! --------------------------- <. . .> >> KH: Did the Buddha teach the four ariyan truths as truths, or did he teach them as support for disenchantment? I ask that because Thanissaro says anatta was taught simply as a meditation strategy, not as a doctrine of no self. Are you saying the four ariyan truths were just a strategy? >> >D: He taught with the purpose of disentchantment , dispassion , detachment and so liberation. Strategy seems to me not really suitable , somehow indicating one of several) . ---------------------------- KH: I would say he taught the way things are. And the only reason he taught it was that right understanding of the way things are leads to the end of suffering. ------------------------------------ > D: I like the symbol of a raft , see extract from MN 22 : http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel048.html "Suppose, monks, there is a man journeying on a road and he sees a vast expanse of water <. . .> ------------------------------------ KH The point of that sutta is that nothing - not even the Dhamma - needs to be clung to (lobha). Unfortunately many people misrepresent the sutta to be saying the Dhamma might not be true; they say the Dhamma might be just a strategy for getting somewhere. (Who knows where!) ----------------------- <. . .> > D: So when you want to try the medicine the Buddha described ,you simply look for the guidelines of the path training, i.e. sila, samadhi, panna (numerous sources , will quote if you like) ------------------------ KH: The Dhamma is the way things are *now*. Anyone who understands that will know the Dhamma is not about trying. ------------------------------------- <. . .> > D: well, in the case of the sila- samadhi- panna training it is rather evident ------------------------------------- KH: Do you remember the sutta quote, "Don't say that, Ananda!"? It was the Buddha's response to Ananda's merest suggestion that the Dhamma might be "evident." ---------------------- <. . .> >> KH: I have never thought of dukkha as the condition for faith in the Dhamma. Would you care to explain what you mean? >> > D: see Nina's well written answer to your question ---------------------- KH Yes, thank you very much Nina, I remember it now. The reason I asked, Dieter, was that you had written "> D: I do not know what Dukkha ,the condition for faith in the Buddha Dhamma, means for you ..(?) One needs to recall that understanding from time to time ..especially when we feel 'no need to try'" (end quote) And so I thought you were saying dukkha meant "trying," as in, "struggling to follow a set of instructions laid down by the Buddha." ---------------------- <. . .> >>>> KH: There is no self that will continue on, there are only dhammas. Dhammas have no concern for the future. They are disinterested. >>> >>> D: Unfortunately only valid for the Holy Ones >>> >> KH: Fortunately it is valid for everyone. >> > D: old story Ken: there is conventional truth and ultimate truth ,as long as you haven't overcome the fetters the former is your All. ------------------------ KH: You will have seen Sarah (for example) and others on DSG frequently saying that the Dhamma (the way things are) remains the Dhamma no matter what. No matter whether it is understood or not, there are only dhammas. There always have been only dhammas and there always will be only dhammas. ---------------------- <. . .> > D: even a description demands to be contemplated /internalized, doesn't it? ---------------------------------- KH: Contemplated by whom? By someone who hasn't understood it yet? There is no someone, there are only dhammas. The conditioned dhammas that contemplate will either arise or they will not arise: there is no control over them. There are only dhammas, and they depend on other dhammas, not on "us." ------------------- <. . .> >> KH: But you haven't explained what this conventional truth is. (Or maybe you have and I read it another way.) >> > D: writing this Email for example .. ------------------- KH: In ultimate truth and reality there is no email and no writer. That is the point of the Buddha's teaching (satipatthana) - to know ultimate truth and reality here and now. --------- >> KH:Ultimately, the terms "conventional" and "truth" contradict each other. For satipatthana purposes we can use conventional truths as tools - or means of expression - but for nothing more than that. >> > D: no contradiction ..each valid in its own domain --------- KH: There is only one domain. The conventional domain that you refer to does not really exist. ------------ >>> KH: In ultimate truth there was no Buddha, there were only conditioned dhammas. >> <. . .> > D: Ken, as I tried to explain : the Buddha Dhamma is concerned with suffering and to make an end of it. All 84000 headings are related to this fact. Perhaps not your concern /priority , but then we do not have a base to discuss. ------------- KH: There has to be an end to suffering here and now, doesn't there? Otherwise the end could only be somewhere else and at another time. That wouldn't suit anybody except a permanent (abiding) self. So forget "trying", just understand that there are only the presently arisen conditioned dhammas. There is no self. Here and now there is no one who needs to be rescued from suffering. ---------------------- <. . .> D: one thing is his translation, another his interpretation . The publication of the former is serving the interested community a great deal. I cannot remember that I quoted to you the latter , which you claim by "Yes, you have quoted Thanissaro's heterodoxy to me before, and I have strongly rejected it every time" . Please show what you mean by that. -------------------------- KH: Did I get that wrong? Sorry, I have had so many Thanissaro conversations on DSG I forget who they have been with. -------------- <. . .> D: no , you haven't done that . What you maintain is that his translation of sutta texts involves heterodoxy , whereas the same time you state 'His translations are considered by Pali experts to be quite good (or so I am told)' . We are not talking about his interpretation which is another issue , but your allegation that he manipulated the text I quoted. ------------------------- KH: I tried to explain. It is not his translations that offend me, it is the way he weaves those translations into his own heterodoxy. But never mind Thanissaro, let's discuss the Dhamma! :-) Ken H #122416 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Feb 7, 2012 2:22 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti epsteinrob Hi Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sukinder wrote: > > Hi Rob E, Scott, > > This is a bit too philosophical and I'm not sure if I am thinking about > it correctly. But allow me to butt in and express myself. > > Rob E: > > > > Well that's a good question. I don't think there is such a thing as a > > "concept" that neither arises nor falls because it is "time-freed," > > and at the same time doesn't exist. I think that's a weird way to talk > > about something that doesn't exist at all, and is just a fabrication > > of thought. If that is all that's meant by all that, then I think the > > terminology is misleading. It suggests something that is transcendent > > to the flow of time, not something that is merely a product of > > thought, which after all takes place within the flow of time. > > > > > Perhaps you are forgetting that time itself is a concept, but one which > is based on the rising and falling away of nama and rupa. Concepts in > general do not rise and fall away because unlike nama and rupa, they do > not exist. But concepts do become objects of consciousness, so when > suggesting that they are "time-freed" this has nothing to do with any > kind of transcendence, but just pointing out their unreality. Same with > Nibbana, although this is a reality, it being time-freed does not have > anything to do with transcendence, but that it does not rise and fall > away as conditioned realities do. Time is not a reality, only nama and > rupa and Nibbana are. What you have said is understood. But I am looking for something more specific. You say that citta takes the concept as an object, but that it does not rise or fall. Fine. How does the concept come to be taken as object when it does not exist? Is it merely an idea created by the thinking process? When I proposed that citta created the concept as part of its moment of thinking, that was rejected by Scott. So all I am asking is techically how does the non-existent concept come to be taken as object. Where does it come from and how does it come and go if it does not rise and fall? Obviously it does not exist in the absence of thought since it does not exist except as object of thought, so does it come with thought and go away when thought is ended? How does it work? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #122417 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Feb 7, 2012 2:34 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: concepts. was Pariyatti. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Op 5-feb-2012, om 21:57 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > I guess what I am wondering about is how a concept is actually > > entertained, given that an individual citta only arises for one > > moment and falls away. So if I am forming the sentence mentally: > > "Dhammas are all anatta," that cannot be constructed in one citta, > > I assume. It would have to be taken up by successive cittas with > > sanna and other cetasikas remembering and putting together each > > part to finally form the whole concept. Is that correct, or are > > whole concepts entertained in a single moment? > ------ > N: There are many processes of cittas and in each process several > cittas take one object at a time. In the case of seeing, colour is > experienced, and then thinking of the meaning of different letters by > cittas arising in other processes. Sense-door processes and mind-door > processes alternate all the time. They are all accompanied by > sa~n~naa and thus there is remembrance of a whole picture. > The same happens when someone speaks out loud: all dhammas are > anatta. A sound, then another process of cittas experiencing sound > through the mind-door, then another process that knows the meaning, > etc. In fact countless processes of cittas arising and falling away. > Sa`n~naa remembers the meaning of the whole sentence. > Cittas are translating different colours and sounds into meaning. > ------- Thanks, that is very detailed and gives me a good sense of what is happening. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #122418 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Feb 7, 2012 3:59 pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? Part 1 jonoabb Hi Alex Thanks for the further explanation. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > >J: I understand wisdom as an aspect of the NEP because of course it >is the first of the 8 path factors, each of which is a mental factor >(wisdom, vitakka, viriya, etc). > > > >But I don't understand your reference to 'meditation' as an aspect >of the NEP. Would you mind elaborating on this? Thanks. > >================================================ > > A: What about right effort + samma-sati + samma-samadhi? > =============== J: The path factors of right effort, samma-sati and samma-samadhi, like that of samma-sati, are each mental factors that co-arise at moments of path consciousness. > =============== > A: When it comes to right effort, especially 3rd and 4th definition points to meditation: > > ==================================================== > (iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.008.than.html > =============== J: The statement "He generates desire for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen" does not particularly suggest the undertaking of deliberate action. In fact it can simply be read as a description of the effect of the 'desire' (kusala chanda) in question, that is to say, one or other of the following: - the kusala chanda that accompanies each newly arisen kind of kusala; - a moment of panna that sees the value of the arising of a new kind of kusala. Likewise the statement "He generates desire for the maintenance of skillful qualities that have arisen". I don't see any basis for reading these statements as referring to 'meditation' which, after all, is a term not used by the Buddha. Jon #122419 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Feb 7, 2012 4:01 pm Subject: Re: "he should leave it by night or by day." sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >S: When we understand the deeper meaning of "living alone", living >without attachment or delusion at this moment, we will be less fixated >on concepts and ideas about a physical place and see that satipatthana >is the understanding and awareness of realities now. > >SN35:63. > >============================================== > >A: Of course it is possible to misuse even the best circumstances. .... S: What does this mean? In reality, there are only dhammas, paramattha dhammas, no "circumstances". Any "misuse", "abuse", "wrong use" or idea of "use" for that matter, can only be the arising of kilesa, the arising of defilements on account of the not understanding dhammas now as anatta. ... >A: Of course one can do wrong things in the forest. .... S: "One" can? .... >A: One can also slip and fall when one gets out of bed. Does this mean that one should never leave one's bed? No. One should just be careful, not careless. Same is here. .... S: This has nothing to do with an understanding of conditioned dhammas as taught by the Buddha. Metta Sarah ==== #122420 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Feb 7, 2012 4:06 pm Subject: Re: "endeavoring beings are clearly discerned" sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >S:Which doorway are 'puggala' experienced? > > Through 5 senses and the mind. .... S: What is experienced through the eye-sense? What is experienced throught the ear-sense? What is experienced through the olfactory-sense? What is experience through taste? Through the body-sense? What is experienced through the mind? Metta Sarah ====== #122421 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Feb 7, 2012 4:12 pm Subject: Re: No-control and its implications sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >S: The quote from the commentary indicates that some people hear/read >the Teachings in terms of conceptual terms, such as puggala and Buddha >without any mis-understanding. They appreciate that these are "mere >conventional expressions" pointing to the Truths, to the ultimate >dhammas. For others, they need to hear/read the Teachings in terms of >those very paramattha dhammas, such as cittas, cetasikas and rupas, to >avoid any confusion or any mistaking of the conventional expressions >for the Truths themselves. > >When there is right understanding of realities, it doesn't matter what >language is used. .... >A: Dhamma can be expressed using conventional or technical ("ultimate") language. .... S: Yes, or even a combination of the two. .... >These are two different but equally effective ways to teach it according to the commentaries. .... S: Depending on the understanding of the listener/reader. If we never hear about "ultimate" dhammas, such as the khandhas, or the dhatus, about nama and rupa, it's impossible to understand that when the texts talk about puggala, Buddha, King X or different realms, that really there are only the momentary arising and falling away of conditioned dhammas - all anatta. Metta Sarah ===== #122422 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Feb 7, 2012 4:32 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. jonoabb Hi Rob E (122275) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: In the case of murder, the dhammas involved would include: > > - in one individual (stream of cittas): an act accompanied by the intention to kill > > R: Is the "intention to kill" a concept, or a dhamma? > =============== J: The intention that accompanies the conventional act of deliberately killing another being is a dhamma. It's the mental factor of 'cetanā' that accompanies a citta rooted in dosa of a particular level/kind (dosa is another mental factor). > =============== > R: You also said: "an act accompanied by..." > > What is an "act" in dhamma terms? > =============== J: In terms of paramattha dhammas, the act of a person is the motion of certain rupas, namely rupas that are conditioned by the kamma and cittas that are associated with a particular stream of cittas. But I'm not sure this kind of analysis really helps, since it tends to result in one kind of 'entity' view being substituted by another. > =============== > R: Again, when the act takes place, if there are in fact "only dhammas" in reality, what does the act consist of in dhamma terms? There is no being to kill, no body to destroy, no hand, no knife to strike the blow. So what does "the act" consist of in reality? > =============== J: When we speak of the world in 'reality', we refer to the present moment as experienced. We are not invited to extrapolate from this to an empirical view of the world at large. After all, the goal is to understand things as they truly are, meaning as capable of being directly experienced at the present moment, not to construct a correct and fully functional 'world view'. > =============== > R: No problem, Jon - it seems that I have persistent probing-attempting vitakkha on this subject, even though it hasn't landed too clearly so far, so I guess it's just good exercise for the old cetasikas. :-) > =============== J: If I'm not mistaken, the function of vitakka is to 'strike at' the object. Feel free to keep striking if my answers here are not making sense! Jon #122423 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Feb 7, 2012 4:43 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti sarahprocter... Dear Scott (& Ann), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > Regarding: > > KS: "Is the kusala with pa~n~naa which thinks. For example there can be thinking of the word 'dhamma.' With understanding or without understanding. It can be only the memory of the term 'dhamma' but at the same time, when one understands what 'dhamma' is, there can be longer story about dhamma. So [those] moments are moments of right thinking about dhammas, not about other things. But it's thinking, only thinking. Not 'me.'" > > Sarah: " So I'd like to ask you whether this is clear now?" > > Scott: I think so. The reference is to 'moments' and 'longer story about dhamma' and thus seems to refer, not to an imperceptible moment of thinking which is gone too quickly to register, but to thinking, and the 'thoughts' this entails - thinking with pa~n~naa. .... Sarah: The individual moments of thinking do arise and fall away far too quickly to 'register'. Usually such moments of thinking are about useless stories of people and things. When it is pariyatti, it is kusala thinking with pa~n~naa about dhammas - many, many moments of thinking, in many mind-door processes which think about concepts of dhammas, but in a wholesome way. Of course, there can also be thinking about concepts of dhammas in an unwholesome way. As we know, lobha is very, very crafty and follows all the time like the student. Btw, I listened again to the section you transcribed (beautifully). It's Ann asking all the good questions and following through with them. Ann, have you listened to it yet? 2011-03-09 KK pm-a section. You may have further comments as well. Scott, if you ever visit Vancouver, I'm sure you'd both enjoy meeting for a dhamma chat. Metta Sarah ===== #122424 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Feb 7, 2012 4:54 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: No-control and its implications sarahprocter... Dear Scott (& Dieter), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > D: "...A wise man once said: "if you or I were to say right now that "there is no doer", that would be the ego/mind talking because we're still identified with the mind and it's thinkingness. Only the Enlightened who have permanently dissolved all mental activity can say that there is no doer, just as the ego can't say the ego is an illusion. That's simply the ego playing it's clever games to keep consciousness identified with it. " > > Scott: Who is this? I've looked at the website: > > http://www.thetruthsoflife.com/index2.html > > And find no author mentioned and a huge amount of new-age nonsense. Why are you quoting this and suggesting it is 'wise?' ..... Sarah: I think Dieter's point may be that while we talk a lot about "no self", "no doer" and so on, very often there is the taking of dhammas for atta, the forgetting that those we hold dear are just ideas conjured about by cittas and that really there are no husband, wife, children or friends in reality - just conditioned dhammas. K. Sujin often asks what is seen now. Someone might reply "visible object", knowing in theory that this is the correct answer. She'll then ask: "Really?" In other words, whilst it may be clear in theory that seeing just sees visible object and hearing just hears sound, all day long there is the idea of seeing and hearing people and things. The other point, of course, is that whilst the quote might sound like "new-age nonsense" to us, it might be more useful and friendly to just discuss the point or dhammas involved! Metta Sarah ==== #122425 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Feb 7, 2012 9:19 pm Subject: Abhidhamma Studies part 1 moellerdieter Hi all, I am thinking it may be quite useful to consider (once again) general comments about Abhidhamma for the benefit of common understanding. Following excerpts from ' Abhidhamma Studies' by the late Nyanaponika Thera , who besides his teacher (Nyanatiloka Maha Thera) has an outstanding reputation as a Dhamma teacher and whom Bhikkhu Bodhi regards "as my closest kalyÄṇamitta in my life as a monk". In part 2 especially the approach of analysis and synthesis will presented. with Metta Dieter Abhidhamma Studies Nyanatiponika Thera excerpt from http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhistudy.pdf 　 In a compartive evaluation of Abhidhamma and Sutta texts , the fact is often overlooked ..that the Sutta Pitaka too contains a considerable amount of pure Abhidhamma. This comprises all those numerous suttas and passages where ultimate (paramttha) terms are used , expressing the impersonal (anatta )or functional way of thinking, for example when dealing with the khandas, dhatus, ayatanas, etc. One frequently hears the questions asked whether the Abhidhamma is necessary for a full understanding of the Dhamma or for final , liberation. In this general form , the question is not quite adequately put. Even in the Sutta Pitaka many different methods of practise , many 'gates ' to the understanding of the same four Truths and to the final goal, Nibbana , are shown. not all of them are 'necessary' or suitable in their entirety for all individual disciples, who will make their own choice among these various methods of approach according to circumstances , inclination and growing maturity . The same holds true for the Abhidhamma as a whole and in its single aspects and teachings. Taking a middle path between overrating or underrating the Abhidhamma , we may say: the Abhidhammic parts of the Sutta, namely the teachings given there in ultimate (paramattha) terms , are indispensable for the understanding and practise of the Dhamma; and the additional explanations of these teachings given in the Abhidhamma proper may prove very helpful, and in some cases even necessary , for both these purposes. As to the codified Abhidhamma Pitaka , familarity with all its details is certainly not a general necessity ; but if is studied and knowledge of it is applied in the way briefly indicated in these pages, this will surely richly enhance a true understanding of actuality and aid the work of liberation. Also, if suitably presented , the Abhidhamma can provide for philosophical minds a stimulating approach to the Dhamma that will prove helpful to them provided they take care to compensate it adequately with the practical aspects of the Dhamma.. Such an approach to the Dhamma should certainly not be blocked by the wholesome disparagement of Abhidhamma studies sometimes found nowadays among Buddhists of the West , and even of the East. Dangers of one-sided emphasis and development lurk not only in the Abhidhamma but also in other ways of approach to the Dhamma and they cannot be entirely avoided until a very high level of harmonious integration of mental qualities has been attained (cf. the 'Balance of the Five Spiritual Faculties'; indriya samata) To be sure , without an earnest attempt to apply the Abhdhamma teachings in such ways as intimated above, they easily become a rigid system of lifeless concepts. Like other philosophical systems , the Abhidhamma can very easily lead to dogmatic and superstitious belief in words , for example, to the opinion that one really knows something about an object of cognition if one tacks a conceptual label on to it. The study of the Abhidhamma should therefore not be allowed to degenerate to a mere collecting , counting and arranging of such conceptual labels. In that way , Abhidhamma study (but of course not the Abhidhamma itself) would become just one more among the many existing intellectual 'play-things' which serve an escape from facing stark reality , or as a 'respectable excuse' with which to try and evade hard work for one's own inner progress towards liberation, for which purpose alone the Abhidhamma is meant . A merely abstract and conceptual approach to the Abhidhamma may also lead to that kind of intellectual pride which often goes together with specialised knowledge. If these pitfalls are avoided , there is good chance that the Abhidhammamay again become a living force which stimulates thought and aids the meditaive endeavour for the mind's liberation. To achieve that , it is necessary , however , that the Abhidhamma teachings , are not merely accepted and transmitted verbally , but that they are carefully examined and contemplated in their philosophical and practical implications. This again require the devotion of searching and imaginative minds; and as they will have to work on neglected and difficult ground, they should not lack the courage to make initial mistakes , which can be rectified by discussion and constant reference to the teachings of the Sutta Pitaka. .. The Abhidhamma is like a powerful magnifying glass, but the understanding gained from the Suttas is the eye itself, which performs the act of seeing.Again, the Abhidhamma is like a medicine container with a label giving an exact analysis of the medicine itself which alone is able to cure the illness and its symptoms, namely craving rooted in ignorance and the suffering caused by it. .. Phenomenology deals , as the name implies , with "phenomena" that is with the world of internal and external experience. In other words, phenomenology investigates the questions, what happens in the world of our experience and how it happens. Ontology , or metaphysics, inquires into the existence and nature of an essence, or ultimate principle, underlying the phenomenal world. The Abhdidhamma belongs doubtlessly to the first of these two divisions philosophy . Even that fundamental Abhidhamma term 'dhamma' which includes corporeal as well as mental "things" may be well rendered by "phenomena" if we only keep in mind that Abhidhammic usuagae "phenomenon" must not be thought to imply a correlative "noumenon" as for instance , in Kantian philosophy. 　 　 　 　 #122426 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Feb 7, 2012 9:38 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti ptaus1 Hi Dieter, > I wonder why you singled out RobE 's mail in your address , vaguely remembering stronger comments in this exchange. Please see the last sentence in the exchange, it seemed like a direct insult to me. Granted, the man was provoked and I'm not sure what good Scott was trying to achieve with his remark, but I feel this is no place for insults. > Using the opportunity of complaint , I think that the hostility in (recent) messages towards my postings is spoiling the benefit of common Dhamma study. I'm sure you don't mean Nina's and Sarah's messages to you, so I guess you mean Scott's (and Phil's occasional hit and run) messages. Unfortunately, it seems Scott prefers to discuss things in a confrontational manner, though in all fairness, he generally restricts his comments and challenges to Dhamma issues. I feel the apparent "hostility" on his part is largely due to our own attachments to the ideas that he challenges, and our attachment to our online personas of course. Sure, most of the time I don't really see what good he could achieve with the kind of provocations that seem like fault-finding and ridiculing, but, we all have preferences as to how to get the message across. Now, since this is an online domain, nobody here is obliged to engage in a discussion with someone else. Meaning, if there are messages or posters you don't find helpful, then - you don't have to reply, nor react in any way to such messages. I feel that's usually the best way to go about it online, and there's absolutely no shame in simply withdrawing from a thread that is not helpful to you. In fact, that's the smart way I feel, because it gives you time and peace to engage in threads you find helpful. > If there is no change , I shall follow Howard and unsubscribe. I hope that doesn't happen as I for one really appreciate your series on cetasikas and questions about D.O. Further, I'm sure we all learn something from your discussions with Nina and Sarah. But, Scott also has the right to participate in the way that seems best to him, and as long as he is not making direct insults here, he can't really be faulted. If you don't find his remarks helpful, then I'd advise to simply not react to his messages. I'm sorry I don't know of a better way to solve the problem at the moment. Best wishes pt > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ptaus1 > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 2:14 PM > Subject: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti > > > > Hi RobE (Scott), > > Could we please tone it down a bit guys. Thanks for your cooperation. > > Best wishes > pt > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Scott. > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > > > > > Rob E., > > > > > > R: "...I don't think there is such a thing as a 'concept' that neither arises nor falls because it is 'time-freed,'..." > > > > > > Scott: Finally. > > > > Oh, please, Scott, why don't you just dry up. Stick to torturing patients. > > > > Rob E. #122427 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 7, 2012 9:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 7-feb-2012, om 11:19 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > In part 2 especially the approach of analysis and synthesis will > presented. ------ Thank you for the excerpt. I have the hardcover of this book and often consulted it. It contains quite useful info. Still, I am missing the direct approach I find in Kh Sujin's explanations: seeing now is Abhidhamma, feeling now is Abhidhamma. Abhidhamma is 'not in the book', it deals with realities now. This is another approach and I understand that Ven. Nyanaponika addresses a public that is more philosophically orientated. But he warns against a theoretical approach, I know. I read about analysis and synthesis, and this still gives the impression of an approach that is more philosophical, not about reality now. Reality now: this is Abhidhamma and satipa.t.thaana that have to go hand in hand. I am thinking of a post once written by Suanluzaw (Abhidhammika): all the Buddha taught was Abhidhamma. In other words, he taught paramattha dhammas, no matter in conventional terms or in paramattha dhamma terms, depending on the listeners. I think it important to keep this in mind when studying Abhidhamma, let us not forget that it deals with reality now. Abhidhamma and satipa.t.thaana. Otherwise we shall not understand the Abhidhamma. ------ Nina. #122428 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 4:04 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti moellerdieter Hi pt, all, thanks for your feedback. As already mentioned I used the opportunity of your intervention to bring up an issue of disturbance (to me), which obviously is not solved by ignoring it. My question is whether - as you write - " Sure, most of the time I don't really see what good he could achieve with the kind of provocations that seem like fault-finding and ridiculing, but, we all have preferences as to how to get the message across. ' "prefers to discuss things in a confrontational manner" is still in line with the guidelines of the list, we were just reminded on: 1. Stay friendly and pleasant when writing to the list. Please avoid any sarcasm, discourtesy or overly personal remarks. 2. Be tolerant of others' views and opinions, no matter how off-base they may seem to you. A issue perhaps to discuss with Sarah and Jon off list.. with Metta Dieter #122429 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 4:09 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti glenjohnann Hi Sarah and Scott --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > >> > Btw, I listened again to the section you transcribed (beautifully). It's Ann asking all the good questions and following through with them. Ann, have you listened to it yet? 2011-03-09 KK pm-a section. You may have further comments as well. Scott, if you ever visit Vancouver, I'm sure you'd both enjoy meeting for a dhamma chat. > No, I have not listened to that part yet - but I will now. I recognized the conversation when I first read it in Scott's post and wondered if I had asked the questions, or thought maybe it was Jonothan. I remember it being very useful Achaan Sujin's answers, that is. Will perhaps post more later. Of course, Scott, should you come to Vancouver, I'd be very happy to get together. Ann. #122430 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 5:16 am Subject: Re: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? Part 1 truth_aerator Hi Jon, all, >A: What about right effort + samma-sati + samma-samadhi? >> =============== >J:The path factors of right effort, samma-sati and samma-samadhi, >like that of samma-sati, are each mental factors that co-arise at >moments of path consciousness. >================== What about Right Livelihood, is it merely a split second moment? >J:The statement "He generates desire for the sake of the arising >of >skillful qualities that have not yet arisen" does not >particularly >suggest the undertaking of deliberate action. >================================================= What part in "He generates desire..." doesn't talk about deliberate mental action? >In fact it can simply be read as a description of the effect >================================ Every word is a description. There is also no problem with description of what needs to be done. One doesn't exclude the other. The Buddha described the path for us TO FOLLOW. With best wishes, Alex #122431 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 5:19 am Subject: Re: "he should leave it by night or by day." truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, > .... > S: "One" can? > .... Conventionally speaking. Again, the Buddha often said that he/she should do this and that. Are you going to criticize the Buddha for teaching Atta? 160. One truly is the protector of oneself; who else could the protector be? With oneself fully controlled, one gains a mastery that is hard to gain. 161. The evil a witless man does by himself, born of himself and produced by himself, grinds him as a diamond grinds a hard gem. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.12.budd.html >A: One can also slip and fall when one gets out of bed. Does this >mean that one should never leave one's bed? No. One should just be >careful, not careless. Same is here. > .... >S: This has nothing to do with an understanding of conditioned dhammas as taught by the Buddha. >========= Please explain. With best wishes, Alex #122432 From: "Kevin" Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 9:29 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti farrellkevin80 Dear Sarah, all, I just wanted to say that there are some very important points in this message which could get easily glossed over. I got that impression while i reading through the message. For example: > Sarah: The individual moments of thinking do arise and fall away far too quickly to 'register'. Usually such moments of thinking are about useless stories of people and things. Kevin: I think the wording above is important. "Useless stories of people and things". This is very important. Why? Because these deluded concepts we get caught up in have no ultimate usage. Why? Because they are only conventionally real. They work to hide realities. >Sarah: As we know, lobha is very, very crafty and follows all the time like the student. Kevin: This part is important too. How crafty is lobha? If we have the wish to cause vipassana to happen faster we have been fooled by crafty lobha, because this will prevent understanding. Kevin #122433 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 12:31 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti scottduncan2 Ann and Sarah, A: "No, I have not listened to that part yet - but I will now. I recognized the conversation when I first read it in Scott's post and wondered if I had asked the questions, or thought maybe it was Jonothan. I remember it being very useful Achaan Sujin's answers, that is. Will perhaps post more later." Scott: Oh, I wondered if that was you, Ann. Sometimes it was hard to tell of you were referring to 'the Dhamma' or 'the dhamma,' which, given the topic, seemed a bit important to determine. A: "Of course, Scott, should you come to Vancouver, I'd be very happy to get together." Scott: Thanks, but I don't get out much. Work and home, grocery shopping and home, soccer practice and home, driving kids and home, home and home, like that. And, apparently, I bite so you're better off... Scott. #122434 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 9:19 am Subject: Rejoicing Joy! bhikkhu5 Friends: How to train Rejoicing Joy in others Success? When sitting alone, in silence, each early morning, with closed eyes one wishes: May I radiate and meet only never-ending and mutually rejoicing joy! May I & all the various beings on the 31 levels of existence develop and find only celebration and elation in a never-ending mutually rejoicing joy! May I & all beings on the sense-desire, fine-material, and the formless plane develop and encounter this generous, infinite and mutually rejoicing joy! May I & all beings in the front, to the right, the back, the left, and below as above, develop and experience openhearted, sharing, & mutually rejoicing joy! May I and all beings within this city, country, planet and universe always: Be fully aware and deeply mindful of this content and mutually rejoicing joy! Examine all details & aspects of this satisfied and mutually rejoicing joy! Put enthusiastic effort in our praxis of this devoted mutually rejoicing joy! Enjoy enraptured jubilant gladness in this exulting mutually rejoicing joy! Be silenced by the tranquillity of quiet and all smiling mutually rejoicing joy! Be concentrated & absorbed into one-pointedness by genuine rejoicing joy! Dwell in an imperturbable equanimity of pure and mutually rejoicing joy... Yeah! May it be even so, since mutual joy causes the jewel of contentment! Comment: Mutual Joy is the 3rd infinite mental state (AppamaññÄ): This gradually reduces all envy, jealousy, possessiveness, stinginess, avarice, miserliness, green covetousness and any unhappiness related with all these states. The cause of Mutual Joy in rejoicing in your child's or boon companion's success. This same joy can then be beamed towards all liked, neutral and also hostile beings. Mutual Joy is then the proximate cause of satisfied and fulfilled Contentment... Lack of mutual joy is thus the proximate cause of dissatisfied discontentment... Joined with the 7 links to Awakening it will later cause a formless jhÄna... Be happy at all and especially other being's success! Then calm comfort grows! <...> Rejoicing Joy! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu SamÄhita _/\_ * <....> #122435 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 2:44 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti glenjohnann Hi Scott and Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > Scott: Oh, I wondered if that was you, Ann. Sometimes it was hard to tell of you were referring to 'the Dhamma' or 'the dhamma,' which, given the topic, seemed a bit important to determine. Hmmm ... I"ll have to listen and see if I can tell! I rather expect that I wasn't conscious of which I was referring to. Stay tuned... . > > A: "Of course, Scott, should you come to Vancouver, I'd be very happy to get together." > > Scott: Thanks, but I don't get out much. Work and home, grocery shopping and home, soccer practice and home, driving kids and home, home and home, like that. And, apparently, I bite so you're better off... If you can "get out" and arrive in Vancouver, I'll take my chances. Ann > #122436 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 3:07 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Rob E > > (122275) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > > J: In the case of murder, the dhammas involved would include: > > > - in one individual (stream of cittas): an act accompanied by the intention to kill > > > > R: Is the "intention to kill" a concept, or a dhamma? > > =============== > > J: The intention that accompanies the conventional act of deliberately killing another being is a dhamma. It's the mental factor of 'cetana' that accompanies a citta rooted in dosa of a particular level/kind (dosa is another mental factor). Thank you, that is a clear description that I find helpful in understanding this reality. > > =============== > > R: You also said: "an act accompanied by..." > > > > What is an "act" in dhamma terms? > > =============== > > J: In terms of paramattha dhammas, the act of a person is the motion of certain rupas, namely rupas that are conditioned by the kamma and cittas that are associated with a particular stream of cittas. > > But I'm not sure this kind of analysis really helps, since it tends to result in one kind of 'entity' view being substituted by another. Personally, for me at least, I think it really is helpful. If I understand what the realities are at play that doesn't appear to be a substitute entity to me. Instead it appears to be a description of certain things taking place, so it is much more mechanical than would be a more conventional statement that assumed a person or being at the center of the act. What it makes clear is that something that may appear to be the "act of a certain person towards another person" is really a mechanical activation of a series of rupas by certain mental factors. There is clearly no entity in such a picture. ... > > =============== > > R: No problem, Jon - it seems that I have persistent probing-attempting vitakkha on this subject, even though it hasn't landed too clearly so far, so I guess it's just good exercise for the old cetasikas. :-) > > =============== > > J: If I'm not mistaken, the function of vitakka is to 'strike at' the object. Feel free to keep striking if my answers here are not making sense! Thanks, Jon. Your description was very helpful. I think the old vitakka can take a little well-deserved rest. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - #122437 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 3:15 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti epsteinrob Hi pt. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi Dieter, > > > I wonder why you singled out RobE 's mail in your address , vaguely remembering stronger comments in this exchange. > > Please see the last sentence in the exchange, it seemed like a direct insult to me. ??? I am confused as to why you would think that sentence had anything to do with you, as it was addressed directly to Scott. I don't want to belabor the issue on-list as we have been asked not to, but I would be happy to address this off-list if you want to email me. In any case, I wanted to assure you that I think you were a voice of reason in this discussion and there is no way that any of my comments were disparaging towards you or implied anything about you. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - > > Hi RobE (Scott), > > > > Could we please tone it down a bit guys. Thanks for your cooperation. > > > > Best wishes > > pt > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > > > Scott. > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > > > > > > > Rob E., > > > > > > > > R: "...I don't think there is such a thing as a 'concept' that neither arises nor falls because it is 'time-freed,'..." > > > > > > > > Scott: Finally. > > > > > > Oh, please, Scott, why don't you just dry up. Stick to torturing patients. > > > > > > Rob E. ================================ #122438 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 3:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti sarahprocter... Dear Kevin, Great to hear from you again! When we were recently in Bangkok your name came up in the context of not having heard from you for a while - we all remembered the good discussions with you there before. How's life going in NYC? Of course, just dhammas rolling on as at any other time/in any other place, I know.... --- On Wed, 8/2/12, Kevin wrote: > > Sarah: The individual moments of thinking do arise and fall away far too quickly to 'register'. Usually such moments of thinking are about useless stories of people and things. >Kevin: I think the wording above is important. "Useless stories of people and things". This is very important. Why? Because these deluded concepts we get caught up in have no ultimate usage. Why? Because they are only conventionally real. They work to hide realities. ... S: Yes... of course we're referring to the papanca, the lobha, ditthi and mana accompanying the akusala cittas which proliferate all day. As you suggest, when there's ignorance the realities are hidden and it seems the dream-worlds are real. ... >>Sarah: As we know, lobha is very, very crafty and follows all the time like the student. >Kevin: This part is important too. How crafty is lobha? If we have the wish to cause vipassana to happen faster we have been fooled by crafty lobha, because this will prevent understanding. ... S: A good example and exactly so. Crafty lobha for sure. There's the idea that because it's the Dhamma and vipassana that somehow the desire and the attempt to 'have' vipassana is worthy. As I quoted before: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/121352 SN 35: 151 "A Student" (Bodhi transl) " 'And how, bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu who has no students and no teacher dwell happily, in comfort? Here, bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu has seen a form with the eye, there do not arise in him evil unwholesome states, memories and intentions connected with the fetters. They do not dwell within him. Since those evil unwholesome states do not dwell within him, he is called 'one who has no students'. They do not assail him. Since evil unwholesome states do not assail him, he is called 'one who has no teacher.' " ... S: I'd be glad to hear any more of your reflections and what you've been reading/considering. You may like to listen to some of the recently uploaded audio from discussions in Kaeng Krachan last year on www. dhammastudygroup.org (very end of audio section). Metta Sarah ===== #122439 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 3:42 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti scottduncan2 Ann, A: "Hmmm ... I"ll have to listen and see if I can tell! I rather expect that I wasn't conscious of which I was referring to. Stay tuned... ." Scott: Ok. I imagine that you'll remember when you listen. A: "If you can 'get out' and arrive in Vancouver, I'll take my chances." Scott: I'll have my kennel loaded in the hold, bow wow, grrrrrr. Scott. #122440 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 4:22 pm Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 sarahprocter... Dear Rob K & all, Here's part of a discussion related to your following comment here. >R: Sarah, you suggested I think, that studying Patthana (if done with any lobha) was just as bad as going to a jungle and standing on one leg. But I still have some resistance to this. ... In Bangkok, you had raised the tale from the Dhp comy about the novice who had wanted the red fish, knowing it was suitable nutriment for him and had asked Sariputta to fetch it (but had become an arahat in the meantime.) After some discussion about the incident : KS: What's the moral of the Teachings? R: I guess it's not that red fish is best for us? No! KS: The variety of accumulations of each one. R: Yeah, different conditions. S: And that is actually the same answer to the "going to the forest" or "reading the Pattana". It depends. Last time a friend said she didn't like to read any [Dhamma] books - different accumulations. R: But it doesn't give the answer of the guy by the Ganges who stood alive holding up his hand, right? this is not the same element because the holding up the hand for 32 years was pure wrong view...... KS: It doesn't matter as long as there is any understanding of reality right now, no matter in what position. ****** Metta Sarah ===== #122441 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 5:39 pm Subject: Re: to Lukas. Heedless in daily life sarahprocter... Dear Pt & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > Sorry bit late in responding, this is the link to the velthuis-unicode converter I gave before: > http://www.granthamandira.com/diCrunch/diCrunch.php ... S: Yes, this is it - it works really easily, even for me! (I'm sure the link is different as the older one no longer works.) ... > > It's maybe the simplest as it doesn't require any installations, setups, etc - it's just an ordinary web page basically. How to use: > > 1. On top you have two buttons with submenus - one to select the Source (like if your text is in Velthuis for example) and the second to select the Target - say you want your Velthuis to go into Unicode with diacritics - you select IAST Unicode. ... S: Thx - the basic point for me to remember is when I put in the Pali, I need to click on IAST unicode in the first box and velthius in the second one. ... > 2. Copy your Velthuis text and paste it in the top textbox (there's already some text there as an example when you open the page - just delete that one). > > 3. in the bottom left corner there's a button "click to convert" - when you click it, it should give you the converted text in Unicode in the bottom text box. .... S: Or the other way round! Many thx. Sarah ===== #122442 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 6:25 pm Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 rjkjp1 Thanks for transcribing that Sarah. I realize that silabataparamsa is always waiting in the wings to trick us. Hence the one who studies Patthana may unknowingly trying to force results, or have a subtle idea that "this is the way", rather than truly understanding the path of direct insight. the complication though, is that the voice of another (i.e. the buddha's words) (as exemplified in the Patthana )are a major cause for wisdom to arise. Yes for many that silabataparamasa may block any benifits from the study... On the other hand, as Khun Sujin says, wisdom can arise at any time, even while holding ones hand in the air. The comlication here, as I see it, is that if the reason someone is holding their hand in the air, thinking that is the path then the worng view must be thick and fetid indeed. Of course who can sa: the handholder may hear something that makes sense, drop his wrong practice and go on to nibbana... The patthana man might never get the real point of what the Buddha was saying.. Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Rob K & all, > > Here's part of a discussion related to your following comment here. > > >R: Sarah, you suggested I think, that studying Patthana (if done with any lobha) was just as bad as going to a jungle and standing on one leg. But I still have some resistance to this. > ... > > In Bangkok, you had raised the tale from the Dhp comy about the novice who had wanted the red fish, knowing it was suitable nutriment for him and had asked Sariputta to fetch it (but had become an arahat in the meantime.) After some discussion about the incident : > > KS: What's the moral of the Teachings? > > R: I guess it's not that red fish is best for us? No! > > KS: The variety of accumulations of each one. > > R: Yeah, different conditions. > > S: And that is actually the same answer to the "going to the forest" or "reading the Pattana". It depends. Last time a friend said she didn't like to read any [Dhamma] books - different accumulations. > > R: But it doesn't give the answer of the guy by the Ganges who stood alive holding up his hand, right? this is not the same element because the holding up the hand for 32 years was pure wrong view...... > > KS: It doesn't matter as long as there is any understanding of reality right now, no matter in what position. > ****** > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > #122443 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 6:48 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti ptaus1 Hi RobE, > ??? I am confused as to why you would think that sentence had anything to do with you, as it was addressed directly to Scott. . . > In any case, I wanted to assure you that I think you were a voice of reason in this discussion and there is no way that any of my comments were disparaging towards you or implied anything about you. Sorry, that was my Tarzan English, I meant it read like an insult, I know it wasn't addressed to me. Though now that I think about it, it kind of felt like it was as I'm fond of the list so it feels personal anyway. I can only imagine what Sarah and Jon must feel when things like this happen here. Anyway, the thing is, when you read the guidelines, you think "why would I ever be sarcastic, intolerant or unfriendly? What'the use in that?!" But then, in a heated discussion you end up going that way. I had a few outbursts that way, but thankfully people here have been patient. So I'd say that friendship in Dhamma is about friendliness as well as about patience when it comes to the other person's outbursts of unfriendliness. We all have problems and they are bound to show here in some way. Best wishes pt #122444 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 6:55 pm Subject: Re: alcohol. szmicio Dear Nina Weekend with Luraya was wonderful. Whe didnt have as much Dhamma discussions as we both expected, cause we were mostly interested in each other a bit. Though we was very close to each other, having lovely sex, huging each other and also a lot of time to know each other better. Even though we had also Dhamma time in between. I played for a while Acharn Sujin talk, this in a boat where she mentiones, 'lobha doesnt let anyone to get out of its cage'. I was suprised by Luraya cause she knew what lobha means(because she reads all the time Perfections and Survey). She says lobha, lobha in such a nice way with this accent. Also she came to poland with a little suitcase, and with it she had Perfections book. When she came back to Sweden waiting for a bus she wrote me an sms '4 hours waiting for a bus.I am gona to read your book on paramis. To be better in Dhamma discussions next time'. She comes back to Poland 20th of Feb for a week. She also was so eager to come to DSG, she read a posts on her own. She asked me if I can send her the most important messages to her email, cause she has limited resources of time and access to internet. Then she reads and answer back to the group. I send her yesterday your post on alcohol Nina, and she answered: Best wishes Lukas > N: There are many disadvantages and dangers with regard to alcohol. > You have read about this in the suttas. Apart from becoming a slave, > not free, there is also another danger. Alcohol destroys braincells > and this may hinder you in the future, prevents clear thinking. You > are young and still have to build up your career, make a living, take > responsibilities with regard to others, and it is necessary to take > all this into consideration. Getting drunk is like playing with fire. > I hope you have a fruitful weekend with lots of Dhamma discussions > with Luraya. Perhaps you can share with us. #122445 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 8:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti nilovg Dear Kevin, I am so happy to hear from you. I hope you are in good health, I remember some problems you mentioned before. Op 7-feb-2012, om 23:29 heeft Kevin het volgende geschreven: > Kevin: I think the wording above is important. "Useless stories of > people and things". This is very important. Why? Because these > deluded concepts we get caught up in have no ultimate usage. Why? > Because they are only conventionally real. They work to hide > realities. > > >Sarah: As we know, lobha is very, very crafty and follows all the > time like the student. > > Kevin: This part is important too. How crafty is lobha? If we have > the wish to cause vipassana to happen faster we have been fooled by > crafty lobha, because this will prevent understanding. ------ N: I like the way you are highlighting parts of Sarah's post. Very helpful. The stories hide realities, well said. About lobha that is so crafty, I am checking all over my translation of Survey and yesterday I read again about the imperfections of vipassanaa and I was amazed how crafty lobha is: < The tenth imperfection of insight occurs when someone delights in insight that clearly realizes the characteristics of nåma and rúpa as they are. When paññå has become keener it realizes the intricacy and subtlety of the imperfections of vipassanå and it knows that these must be eliminated. Paññå realizes that so long as they arise the right Path is not developed which leads to elimination of even the more subtle attachment to realities. That is purity by knowledge and vision of what is the path and what is not the path, maggåmagga-ñåùadassana- visuddhi. Then there can be insight knowledge of the fourth stage, knowledge of the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa, while the person who develops insight is now free from the imperfections of insight. The Visuddhimagga Ch XXI, 2, explains why the knowledge of arising and falling away of realities should be pursued again. The person who develops insight could not realize clearly the three general characteristics of realities so long as he was disabled by the imperfections. When the imperfections have been overcome, he should pursue the knowledge of arising and falling away of realities again in order to realize the three characteristics more clearly. > ---------- Actually, the more one reads and studies, the more one sees how subtle and difficult following the right Path is. Best is to attend only to the present moment in as far as this is possible and not think of future results. I hope you will keep up the good work of posting. ------ Nina #122446 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 8:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: alcohol. nilovg Dear Lukas and Luraya, Op 8-feb-2012, om 8:55 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Luraya: i think it is so hard to understand what you are going > through, as adam said. sometimes when i start to be very very > hungry and loose my equanimity i think it must be like not getting > alcohol when you are craving for it, but with alcohol and drugs it > is at least 13 times stronger! > > i know that you are strong and i am so happy for your promise, it > makes me really feeling better now and calmer to sit the course! ------ N: Thank you for your report. As Luraya said it is hard to go through such an enslavement. At the same time it can help to see the many dangers, hiri and ottappa can arise: seeing the danger of akusala. But, if they do not arise, no way to abstain, that is true. Help from friends like Luraya is useful, it can strengthen you. We all sympathize with your problems and just like to support you with Dhamma in whatever way we can. I am very glad that Luraya appreciates the Perfections, they are so good for practice in daily life, really inspiring. with best wishes to you both, Nina #122447 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 8:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 moellerdieter Dear Nina you wrote: Thank you for the excerpt. I have the hardcover of this book and often consulted it. It contains quite useful info. Still, I am missing the direct approach I find in Kh Sujin's explanations: seeing now is Abhidhamma, feeling now is Abhidhamma. Abhidhamma is 'not in the book', it deals with realities now. This is another approach and I understand that Ven. Nyanaponika addresses a public that is more philosophically orientated. But he warns against a theoretical approach, I know. I read about analysis and synthesis, and this still gives the impression of an approach that is more philosophical, not about reality now. Reality now: this is Abhidhamma and satipa.t.thaana that have to go hand in hand. D: it depends how one understands' philosophical '. Certainly nowadays it is often used in a meaning of theory missing practical relation, perhaps due to the many branches developed. But I am quite sure , the Venerable had the orginal meaning of 'love of wisdom' in mind , i.e. equivalent to panna. When I read the Venerable's proposition of an approach of analysis and synthesism, it reminded me on what I recently wrote to you: "D: yes , we may think in a different way : you focus on a 'khanda spot' (one element at a time) , whereas I consider the dynamic process of D.O.: Though it is true that suffering in brief is khanda attachment and that the 5 are representing the living being, but we cannot understand what constitutes the self (delusion ) by the khandas alone . For that we need to keep their embedment within the network of conditioning links in mind." i.e. I suppose that you concentrate on the analytical method ( emphasis on 'suppose ' , not yet clear ) The complementary approach of both analysis and synthesis , Nyanaponika pointed out , makes sense to me . Part 2 will provide the base for further discussion. N:I am thinking of a post once written by Suanluzaw (Abhidhammika): all the Buddha taught was Abhidhamma. In other words, he taught paramattha dhammas, no matter in conventional terms or in paramattha dhamma terms, depending on the listeners. I think it important to keep this in mind when studying Abhidhamma, let us not forget that it deals with reality now. Abhidhamma and satipa.t.thaana. Otherwise we shall not understand the Abhidhamma. ------ D: but by that , the distinction of mundane and supramundane right understanding would get lost , wouldn't it? with Metta Dieter #122448 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 9:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 8-feb-2012, om 10:33 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > I suppose that you concentrate on the analytical method ( emphasis > on 'suppose ' , not yet clear ) > The complementary approach of both analysis and synthesis , > Nyanaponika pointed out , makes sense to me . > Part 2 will provide the base for further discussion. ------ N: Long ago when I was reading this I spoke about it to Kh Sujin. She answered: without analysis there cannot be the synthetic method. But I think that also Ven. N. pointed this out? I myself think that we have to understand naama and ruupa as they appear one at a time so that, later on, we can grasp their relations within the D.O. In the Visuddhimagga, as I mentioned before, it is meaningful that first each type of condition is dealt with before coming to the D.O. When looking at the links of D.O. we have to understand in what ways each of these links conditions the following one. It is very intricate because there are several types of conditions operating at the same time. -------- > > N:I am thinking of a post once written by Suanluzaw (Abhidhammika): > all the Buddha taught was Abhidhamma. ... > I think it important to keep this in mind when studying Abhidhamma, > let us not forget that it deals with reality now. Abhidhamma and > satipa.t.thaana. Otherwise we shall not understand the Abhidhamma. > ------ > D: but by that , the distinction of mundane and supramundane right > understanding would get lost , wouldn't it? ------- N: I am thinking now of mundane right understanding as developed by being mindful of the present reality. Supramundane understanding is a goal that is far off and we cannot even imagine what it is like. Let us just attend to the present reality, I feel that that is enough for now. And that is the way to understand what paramattha dhammas are, in other words, what the Abhidhamma is. ------- Nina. #122449 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu Feb 9, 2012 1:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 2 moellerdieter further excerpts from Ven. Nyanaponika's Abhidhamma Studies Investigations in the Abhidhamma are a definite and valuable contribution to ontological problems, that is , to the search for an abiding essence in reality. The results of Abhidhamma Philosophy show clearly and irrefutably where such an alleged essence can never be found , namely in the world of the 5 aggregates (khanda). The most sublime states of meditative consciousness so frequently identified with the manifestation of, or the magic union with a deity of a personal or impersonal nature are included in those 5 phenomenal objects of clinging(upadana khanda) and excluded from the sphere of the unconditioned element. At the same time , the thorough analysis of all phenomena undertaken in the Abhidhamma leaves no doubt , what Nibbana definetely is not. It is true that these ontological results of the Abhidhamma are "merely negative" but they represent certainly more substantial and consequential contributions to the ontological problem than the "positive" assertions of many metaphysicall systems. Abhdidhamma is a descriptive philosophy. For the purpose of describing phenomena the Abhidhamma uses two complentary methods= that of analysis and that of investigating the relations (conditionality) of things. 1. the analytical Dhammasangani , or "Enumeration of Phenomena" has the following descriptive pattern:"At a time when (such or such a type of consciousness has arisen, at that time there exists the following phenomena.." 2. The Patthana or "Book of Origination", the principle dealing with the Buddhist philosophy of relations , uses the following stereotype basic formular: "Dependent on a (e.g. wholesome ) phenomenon there may arise a (wholesome) phenomenon, conditioned by way of (e.g. a root cause) " In the first case a description is given what is really happening when we say "consciousness" has arisen.In the second case , the description answers the question "How" , that is to say under which conditions the event is happening ... important axiom of Buddhist philosophy: A complete description of a thing requires besides the analysis also a statement of its relation to certain other elements. Abhidhamma does not deal with any Beyond as to things in general (meta ta physica), it nevertheless goes beyond single things, that is , beyond things artifically isolated for the purpose of analytical description. The connection or relation between things that is , their conditionality (ida -paccayata) is dealt with particularly in the Patthana, which supplies a vast net of rational categories . But the mere fact of relations , that is , the nonexistence of things in isolation, is already implicit in the thorough analysis undertaken in the Dhammasangani, where it is shown that even the smallest psychic unit , that is , in a single moment of consciousness , a multiplicity of mental factors is active between which a certain relationship and interdependence must necessarily exist. axiomatic : nothing arises from a single cause, nothing exists (or move) by its own power, no thing arises singly The Patthana investigates only the external relations and in another work of Abhidhamma , the Vibhanga,the internal relations , too are treated.In the Paccaya Vibhanga , the treatise on the Modes of Condtionality, the schema of the Dhammasangani is combined with the formular of the Dependent Origination ( Paticcasamuppada ); for example : "At a time when (the first unwholesome state of consciousness) has arisen, at that time there arises dependent on ignorance the (respective) kamma formation (sankharo, in singular!) . In that text there are some deviations from the normal formular of the Dependent Origination , varying in accordance which type of consciousness in question . This remarkable application of the Paticcasamuppada is called in the commentary ekaccittakkhanikapaticcasamupuppada, that is , "the Dependent Origination within a single moment of consciousness". The commentary indicates which of the 24 modes of conditionality (paccaya) are applicable to which links of that "momentary" paticca-samuppada. In that way , by showing that even an infinitisimally brief moment of consciousness is actually an intricate net of relations, the erroneous belief in a static world is attacked and destroyed at its root. In that important but much too little known chapter of the Vibhangha, both methods of the Abhidhamma are exemplified and harmonized at the same time , namely the analytical and the relational. According to the Satipatthana Sutta the contemplation of different objects of attention should be proceed in two phases: Phase I : 1. ajjhatta, the contemplation of phenomena (corporeal and mental) as appearing in oneself 2. bahiddha, penomena appearing in others 3. ajjhatta-bahiddha , the combination of both here the synthecial or relation method is applied by breaking down differentiations between ego and non ego and by showing that the life process is an impersonal continuum. Phase II: 1. samudaya-dhamma, phenomena viewed as arising , 2.vaya dhamma, phenomena viewed as passing away, 3...... combination of both here the analytical method is applied for breaking up wrong identifications In the commentary of the practise of Satipatthana both as partial aspects, the analytica and the synthetical , gradually merge into one perfect and undivided "vision ogf things" as they really are. Similar Vis. Magga: I. analytical : 1. analysis of the corporeal (rupa) 2. .analysis of the mental (nama) II:.synthetical: 1.contemplation of both nama -rupa 2. both viewed conditioned III. application of the three characteristics to mind and body-cum -condition =combination of both analysis and synthesis Only the application of both methods -the analytical and the synthetical can produce a full and correct understanding of the impersonality (anatta) and insubstantiality (sunnate) of all phenomena. A one-sided application of analysis may easily result in the view of a rigid world of material and psychic atoms. .....even distinguished Buddhist writers of the past and our times as well, have not always avoided the pitfall of a one-sided analytical approach. This may easily happen because analysis takes a very prominent place in Buddhist philosophy . Furthermore , in striving for insight , that is , for a "vision of things as they really are" analysis comes first. The first task is to remove by analysis the basis for all numerous false notions of substantial unitees such as the unquestioned belief of the average man in an identical ego or theological faithin an individual soul, or the various concepts of materialist or idealist systems. Finally, analysis tends to be overemphasised in expositions of the Abhidhamma becauase the anaytical Dhammasangani presents relatively easier readings than the Patthana, giving more concrete facts than the latter book. 　 #122450 From: "Kevin" Date: Thu Feb 9, 2012 3:51 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti farrellkevin80 Dear Sarah, > > Dear Kevin, > > Great to hear from you again! When we were recently in Bangkok your name came up in the context of not having heard from you for a while - we all remembered the good discussions with you there before. How's life going in NYC? Of course, just dhammas rolling on as at any other time/in any other place, I know.... Kevin: Thank you. It is great to hear from you. Things are going well. I actually live up in the mountains, far from the city. I have been reading here lately but just haven't chimed in. Great to hear from you. Kevin #122451 From: "Kevin" Date: Thu Feb 9, 2012 3:55 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti farrellkevin80 Dear Nina, > > Dear Kevin, > I am so happy to hear from you. I hope you are in good health, I > remember some problems you mentioned before. Dear Nina, it's great to hear from you. I am doing very well, thank you for asking. I have seen some doctors and am doing well. And how have you been? Kevin #122452 From: "Kevin" Date: Thu Feb 9, 2012 4:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 farrellkevin80 Dear Nina, all, > N: I am thinking now of mundane right understanding as developed by > being mindful of the present reality. Supramundane understanding is a > goal that is far off and we cannot even imagine what it is like. Let > us just attend to the present reality, I feel that that is enough for > now. And that is the way to understand what paramattha dhammas are, > in other words, what the Abhidhamma is. > ------- Kevin: Why would that be different? Kevin #122453 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu Feb 9, 2012 5:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 sakkayaditthi moellerdieter Hi KenH, you wrote: KH: I am glad to hear it. I have sympathy for Theravada communities like the one you mentioned. Until recently, most of the ancient commentaries were unavailable to the non-Pali speaking world, and without them the Dhamma would have been incredibly hard to understand D: I think it was a pity that this small first group of Theravada lay Buddhist splitted. Not many Dhamma translations were available , not to mention commentaries. Perhaps the point of controversy could have been solved by Maha Padesa , if they were as lucky as we now with the www .. Nowadays Theravadins are few (big majority of Mahayana in Germany) , I suppose the shown disunity wasn't an attraction for possible interest of others in the teaching. KH:We need to understand how there can be 'no sufferer' but still be a 'way out of suffering.' And I think that is why people who had no access to the commentaries had to invent theories of a transcendental sufferer; they couldn't see any other explanation! D: well , I think that Ven. Thanissaro , who has translated a big number of suttas , can support his interpretation with sutta sources although -as we may take it- a serious misinterpretation of the gist of the Buddha Dhamma. Commentaries may advise but are secondary for Maha Padesa. But to be fair one has to read his material . It would be a surprise to me , if he simply means to 'transfer' the ego pocessed personality including mana to the other shore.. --------------------------- <. . .> >> KH: Did the Buddha teach the four ariyan truths as truths, or did he teach them as support for disenchantment? I ask that because Thanissaro says anatta was taught simply as a meditation strategy, not as a doctrine of no self. Are you saying the four ariyan truths were just a strategy? >> >D: He taught with the purpose of disentchantment , dispassion , detachment and so liberation. Strategy seems to me not really suitable , somehow indicating one of several) . ---------------------------- KH: I would say he taught the way things are. And the only reason he taught it was that right understanding of the way things are leads to the end of suffering. ------------------------------------ > D: I like the symbol of a raft , see extract from MN 22 : http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel048.html "Suppose, monks, there is a man journeying on a road and he sees a vast expanse of water <. . .> ------------------------------------ KH The point of that sutta is that nothing - not even the Dhamma - needs to be clung to (lobha). D: that is correct.. though I would prefer 'tanha ' KH:many people misrepresent the sutta to be saying the Dhamma might not be true; they say the Dhamma might be just a strategy for getting somewhere. (Who knows where!) ----------------------- D: well , one needs to see it in context: the Buddha stated , if there would be no ageing, sickness and death , there would be no teaching. In other words the Buddhadhamma is a mean (for the cessation of suffering,) the deathless , i.e. Nibbana , which all those who haven't had at least a glance need to believe in. <. . .> > D: So when you want to try the medicine the Buddha described ,you simply look for the guidelines of the path training, i.e. sila, samadhi, panna (numerous sources , will quote if you like) ------------------------ KH: The Dhamma is the way things are *now*. Anyone who understands that will know the Dhamma is not about trying. ------------------------------------- D: the aim is not the now though a possible mean -- the aim is cessation of suffering . No doubt about that! well trying and practising ..if your sila is ok and you practise Satipatthana with a fair fundament of the objects of body,feeling , mind and mind objects I am with you ;-) > D: well, in the case of the sila- samadhi- panna training it is rather evident ------------------------------------- KH: Do you remember the sutta quote, "Don't say that, Ananda!"? It was the Buddha's response to Ananda's merest suggestion that the Dhamma might be "evident." ----------------------# D: careful with the context , Ken! The Buddha refered to Ananda's claim concering the Law of Dependent Origination surely not to base of the path practise. ( another example I recall is in DN16) <. . .> >> KH: I have never thought of dukkha as the condition for faith in the Dhamma. Would you care to explain what you mean? >> > D: see Nina's well written answer to your question ---------------------- KH Yes, thank you very much Nina, I remember it now. The reason I asked, Dieter, was that you had written "> D: I do not know what Dukkha ,the condition for faith in the Buddha Dhamma, means for you ..(?) One needs to recall that understanding from time to time ..especially when we feel 'no need to try'" (end quote) And so I thought you were saying dukkha meant "trying," as in, "struggling to follow a set of instructions laid down by the Buddha." D:no , that would be a failure of the Middle Way ( between indulgence and ascesis) I had in mind to recall that we never know how much time we still have left , trying one's best ..overcoming one's laziness etc.. You may remember (DN 16):'Then the Blessed One addressed the monks, "Now, then, monks, I exhort you: All fabrications are subject to decay. Bring about completion by being heedful." Those were the Tathagata's last words.' ---------------------- <. . .> >>>> KH: There is no self that will continue on, there are only dhammas. Dhammas have no concern for the future. They are disinterested. >>> D: Unfortunately only valid for the Holy Ones>> >> KH: Fortunately it is valid for everyone. > D: old story Ken: there is conventional truth and ultimate truth ,as long as you haven't overcome the fetters the former is your All. ------------------------ KH: You will have seen Sarah (for example) and others on DSG frequently saying that the Dhamma (the way things are) remains the Dhamma no matter what. No matter whether it is understood or not, there are only dhammas. There always have been only dhammas and there always will be only dhammas. ---------------------- D: if , as I said above ,if this knowledge is connected with the development of the path element of samma sati ... <. . .> > D: even a description demands to be contemplated /internalized, doesn't it? ---------------------------------- KH: Contemplated by whom? By someone who hasn't understood it yet? There is no someone, there are only dhammas. The conditioned dhammas that contemplate will either arise or they will not arise: there is no control over them. There are only dhammas, and they depend on other dhammas, not on "us." -------------------<. . .> >> KH: But you haven't explained what this conventional truth is. (Or maybe you have and I read it another way.) >> > D: writing this Email for example ..------------------- KH: In ultimate truth and reality there is no email and no writer. That is the point of the Buddha's teaching (satipatthana) - to know ultimate truth and reality here and now. D: well, we are communicating within the reality of our conventional world , in which you will get older , likely sick and surely die , regardless of the ultimate truth that there are only mental and corporeal phenomena , i.e. dhammas, appearing in a process of dependent origination. This truth needs penetration .. the 8fold Noble Path , of which satipatthana is an important element in order to have consequences , --------- >> KH:Ultimately, the terms "conventional" and "truth" contradict each other. For satipatthana purposes we can use conventional truths as tools - or means of expression - but for nothing more than that.>> > D: no contradiction ..each valid in its own domain--------- KH: There is only one domain. The conventional domain that you refer to does not really exist. D: that is obviously wrong , the Buddha never disputed the reality of the conventional world .. to whom did he teach ? ----------- >>> KH: In ultimate truth there was no Buddha, there were only conditioned dhammas. >> <. . .> > D: Ken, as I tried to explain : the Buddha Dhamma is concerned with suffering and to make an end of it. All 84000 headings are related to this fact. Perhaps not your concern /priority , but then we do not have a base to discuss. ------------- KH: There has to be an end to suffering here and now, doesn't there? Otherwise the end could only be somewhere else and at another time. That wouldn't suit anybody except a permanent (abiding) self. So forget "trying", just understand that there are only the presently arisen conditioned dhammas. There is no self. Here and now there is no one who needs to be rescued from suffering... D: .I see ..all enlightened by assuming the only domain of ultimate truth ;-) ---------------------- <. . .> D: one thing is his translation, another his interpretation . The publication of the former is serving the interested community a great deal. I cannot remember that I quoted to you the latter , which you claim by "Yes, you have quoted Thanissaro's heterodoxy to me before, and I have strongly rejected it every time" . Please show what you mean by that. -------------------------- KH: Did I get that wrong? Sorry, I have had so many Thanissaro conversations on DSG I forget who they have been with. -------------- <. . .> D: no , you haven't done that . What you maintain is that his translation of sutta texts involves heterodoxy , whereas the same time you state 'His translations are considered by Pali experts to be quite good (or so I am told)' . We are not talking about his interpretation which is another issue , but your allegation that he manipulated the text I quoted. ------------------------- KH: I tried to explain. It is not his translations that offend me, it is the way he weaves those translations into his own heterodoxy. But never mind Thanissaro, let's discuss the Dhamma! :-) D: ditthi has many aspects , let us hope our discussion goes in direction of samma ditthi ;-) with Metta Dieter #122454 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Feb 9, 2012 8:37 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti epsteinrob Hi pt. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi RobE, > > > ??? I am confused as to why you would think that sentence had anything to do with you, as it was addressed directly to Scott. > . . > > In any case, I wanted to assure you that I think you were a voice of reason in this discussion and there is no way that any of my comments were disparaging towards you or implied anything about you. > > > Sorry, that was my Tarzan English, I meant it read like an insult, I know it wasn't addressed to me. Though now that I think about it, it kind of felt like it was as I'm fond of the list so it feels personal anyway. I can only imagine what Sarah and Jon must feel when things like this happen here. I understand your point - yet it wasn't an insult to the list either. > Anyway, the thing is, when you read the guidelines, you think "why would I ever be sarcastic, intolerant or unfriendly? What's the use in that?!" But then, in a heated discussion you end up going that way. I had a few outbursts that way, but thankfully people here have been patient. So I'd say that friendship in Dhamma is about friendliness as well as about patience when it comes to the other person's outbursts of unfriendliness. We all have problems and they are bound to show here in some way. I agree. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - #122455 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Feb 9, 2012 8:47 am Subject: Fulfilled First! bhikkhu5 Friends: What Qualities initiate development of the Noble 8-fold Way? The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, even as dawn is the forerunner & messenger of the rising sun, similarly is Fulfillment the forerunner & messenger of the emergence of this Noble 8-fold Way. Fulfillment of what? Fulfillment of Morality ... Fulfillment of Motivation ... Fulfillment of Determination ... Fulfillment of View ... Fulfillment of Alertness ... Fulfillment of Rational Attention... When a Bhikkhu is accomplished in these qualities including rational attention, one can expect that he will initiate & refine this Noble 8-fold Way! How does a Bhikkhu, who is accomplished in these mental qualities develop and cultivate this Noble 8-fold Way? In this he develops: Right View so the final goal is the removal of Greed, Hate and Ignorance. Right Motivation so the final goal is the removal of Greed, Hate and Ignorance. Right Speech so the final goal is the removal of Greed, Hate and Ignorance. Right Action so the final goal is the removal of Greed, Hate and Ignorance. Right Livelihood so the final goal is the removal of Greed, Hate and Ignorance. Right Effort so the final goal is the removal of Greed, Hate and Ignorance. Right Awareness so the final goal is the removal of Greed, Hate and Ignorance. Right Concentration so the final goal is the removal of Greed, Hate and Ignorance. It is in this way, friends, that a Bhikkhu who is fulfilled, consummated and accomplished in morality, motivation, determination, view, alertness & rational attention develops, cultivates, and completes this Noble Eightfold Path… <....> Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikâya. Book [V:31-2] section 45: The Way. 57: Fulfilled ... http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Fulfilled First! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <....> #122456 From: Sukinder Date: Thu Feb 9, 2012 3:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti sukinderpal Hello Rob E, > > What you have said is understood. But I am looking for something more > specific. You say that citta takes the concept as an object, but that > it does not rise or fall. Fine. How does the concept come to be taken > as object when it does not exist? Is it merely an idea created by the > thinking process? When I proposed that citta created the concept as > part of its moment of thinking, that was rejected by Scott. > S: Were you not suggesting that for something to be time-freed that it must exist? Perhaps Scott's objection is to the idea that thoughts are 'produced' by thinking. Dhammas condition each other, they don't create anything. Why thoughts can't be said to be the 'product' of thinking is because what takes place is that dhammas condition each other and not one giving rise to the other. All nama dhammas rise and fall away at the same time, and rupas of the senses must in fact arise before the nama dhammas experiencing it. To illustrate, consider a moment of direct understanding of a dhamma. Can it be said that citta or panna or any of the accompanying mental factors "create" the object? Thinking, like a moment of direct understanding is a volitional process and is accompanied by more or less the same cetasikas each performing their particular functions including perception, applied thinking, sustained thinking, attention and so on. So when thoughts are object of citta, they are not "produced" but more like shadows of the thinking process. Besides, for a concept to be recognizable as "something", this involves many, many process of cittas where perceptions of raw color take place. So what happens is that one citta conditions the next one on and on and the "something" which finally comes to be the object, is a matter of what happens to precede. > So all I am asking is techically how does the non-existent concept > come to be taken as object. Where does it come from and how does it > come and go if it does not rise and fall? Obviously it does not exist > in the absence of thought since it does not exist except as object of > thought, so does it come with thought and go away when thought is > ended? How does it work? > S: I'd be speculating as I've done above. And although as you can see, I do sometimes think about it, however I do not consider it useful to do so. And I wonder why you should find this important. For me it is enough to accept the reality / concept distinction and that for the development of wisdom, it is the former that needs to be studied. The mechanism whereby concepts come to be taken as object of consciousness is not important at all. I do however believe that in studying the different nama and rupa dhammas that appear, particularly those such as perception, applied and sustained thinking, that this will be understood better, otherwise any explanation now will only be a theory which I'll either accept or reject. As you can see, thinking happens all the time. What is more important therefore is to know the particular dhammas conditioning the thinking and not the mechanism itself. For example when you think and ask these particular questions, is this motivated by attachment and wrong view, or is it by understanding? Would the answer given lead to seeing the importance of understanding the present moment or just more thinking with attachment? If the latter, what is the point then? Metta, Sukin #122457 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 9, 2012 4:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 sarahprocter... Dear Rob K, Thanks for your further comments. --- On Wed, 8/2/12, rjkjp1 wrote: >I realize that silabataparamsa is always waiting in the wings to trick us. Hence the one who studies Patthana may unknowingly trying to force results, or have a subtle idea that "this is the way", rather than truly understanding the path of direct insight. >the complication though, is that the voice of another (i.e. the buddha's words) (as exemplified in the Patthana )are a major cause for wisdom to arise. Yes for many that silabataparamasa may block any benifits from the study... ... S: There has to be pa~n~naa for there to be suta-maya-pa~n~naa, for there to be wise considering of the sounds that have been heard. From the Nanamoli/Bodhi translation of MN43: "Friend, there are two conditions for the arising of right view: the voice of another (S: parato ghosa) and wise attention (S: yoniso manasikara)." ["MA: 'The voice of another' (parato ghosa) is the teaching of beneficial Dhamma. These two conditions are necessary for disciples to arrive at the right view of insight and the right view of the supramundane path....] **** Here's another transcription from the start of the discussion in Bangkok. You had been saying that you thought some activities, such as the guy holding his hand in the air by the Ganges, are really wrong and that other activities like reading the Abhidhamma books are not wrong. You asked if this was correct. KS: It depends on right now at this very moment, no matter what brings understanding of realities right now is right. R: OK, is any activity useful? KS: It doesn't matter, because now reality appears, but it depends on how much understanding (there is) of it as not self, one by one, each one, like seeing now. Is there any glimpse of understanding that it is a reality, one reality in the circle of birth and death, samsara vatta? Nothing is missing, otherwise that's the end of samsara vatta, but there is no understanding of anyone. No matter one stands for 5 hours, 5 years or one hour, one minute - it depends on right understanding only. **** >R: On the other hand, as Khun Sujin says, wisdom can arise at any time, even while holding ones hand in the air. The complication here, as I see it, is that if the reason someone is holding their hand in the air, thinking that is the path then the worng view must be thick and fetid indeed. >Of course who can say the handholder may hear something that makes sense, drop his wrong practice and go on to nibbana... The patthana man might never get the real point of what the Buddha was saying.. .... S: In reality, there is no forest, no person holding his hand in the air, no Patthana - there are just namas and rupas arising and falling away. So just as it just depends now whether there is any understanding of what appears, so it does at any other time. Metta Sarah ===== #122458 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Feb 9, 2012 5:15 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 sarahprocter... Dear Nina & all, Thanks for your comments. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Yes, I also heard Kh Sujin say that in order to study the D.O. there > should be right understanding of realities. I think: if a person does > not know at all about naama and ruupa, if there is no basic > understanding of dhammas as they appear one at a time through the six > doors, he would not understand anything about the D.O. He may just > repeat some words of the texts. .... S: Yes, agreed. We know that without hearing the Teachings, it's impossible to understand realities, but there has to be understanding of what is heard, a basic understanding of dhammas as you say. In the same discussion in Bangkok, Rob K asked why so many people who study the Abhidhamma or listen to the Teachings don't seem to "get right understanding". KS: It depends on what one understands by the term "Abhidhamma". Why is dhamma Abhidhamma? Is Abhidhamma different from dhamma or is it just the qualification or quality of dhamma? R: Just the qualification. S: The point we were trying to make is that if one reads the Abhidhamma, even in Pali, if there's no understanding at all, it's useless - just like standing on one leg or going to a retreat. KS: Not understanding even the word Abhidhamma - Sukin: So what you're saying is the point of studying is to understand the reality and it's therefore useless to talk in terms of one activity being better, more wrong than another one. KS: Can anyone say "Abhidhamma" without ay understanding at all? Sukin: Yes. KS: So is that the understanding of dhamma? Sukin: No. KS: So what's the use of not understanding, but just saying Abhidhamma? ***** Metta Sarah ===== #122459 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Feb 9, 2012 5:41 pm Subject: Re: United in Harmony :-) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, I was just checking other translations of the following sutta which Ven Samahita quoted here, so I thought I'd share a little more on it: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > Friends: > The 6 Things Uniting in Harmony to be Remembered: > The Blessed Buddha once said: > These six things are to be remembered in order to Unite any Community in > Harmony: > Which six? > 1: Friendly Behaviour (metta-kaya-kamma=friendly bodily action) both in > public & in private. > 2: Friendly Speech (metta-vaci-kamma=friendly verbal action) both in public > & in private. > 3: Friendly Thought (metta-mano-kamma=friendly mental action) both in public > & in private. > 4: Sharing of Gains (sadharana-bhogi=common wealth) even down to any single > lump of food. > 5: Moral Harmony (sila-samannagato=uniform morality): All respect the same > ethical rules. > 6: Harmony in Views (ditthi-samannagato=uniform attitude): All share same > general views. > These 6 things are to be considered and remembered both for individual & > social Harmony... <...> > Source (edited extract): > The Numerical Sayings of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikâya. > The Book of Sixes 11: To be Remembered... [III: 288-9] .... S: B.Bodhi titles the Sutta "Principle of Cordiality" in "Numerical Discourses of the Buddha", p. 153 "There are, O monks, these six principles of cordiality that create love and respect and conduce to helpfulness, to non-dispute, to concord and to unity. What six? "Here, a monk maintains bodily acts....verbal acts... mental acts of loving-kindness both in public and private towards his fellow monks. This is a principle of cordiality that creates love and respect... "Again , a monk uses things in common with his virtuous fellow monks; without making reservations, he shares with them any righeous gain that has been righteously obtained, including even the contents of his bowl. This too is a principle of cordiality that creates love and respect.... "Again, a monk dwells both in public and in private possessing in common with his fellow monks virtues that are unbroken, untorn, unblemished, unmottled, freeing, praised by the wise, unadhered to, leading to concentration. This too is a principle of cordiality that creates love and respect... "Again, a monk dwells both in public and in private possessing in common with his fellow monks the view that is noble and emancipating and that leads one who acts in accordance with it to the complete destruction of suffering [the right view associated with the noble path]. This too is a principle of cordiality that creates love and respect... "These, monks, are the six principles of cordiality that create love and respect and conduce to helpfulness, to non-dispute, to concord and to unity." (The PTS translation is similar - it is titled "On Being Considerate"]. We see, at the end, how right view leads to the development of metta, to being considerate. Metta Sarah ===== #122460 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Feb 9, 2012 6:23 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna jonoabb Hi Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: As far as I know, the question of the mechanics of how dhammas are misperceived was not addressed by the Buddha. So I suspect it has little or no relevance to the question of escape from samsara. > > RE: It does make a difference to my understanding whether there is a distorted relationship between concepts and dhammas, or no relationship at all. > =============== J: I don't think it's a question of a distorted relationship between concepts and dhammas, since the enlightened being also thinks in terms of concepts of people and things. The difference between the enlightened and the unenlightened being is that whereas the thinking of the latter is influenced by accumulated wrong view, the thinking of the former is freed of that influence. > =============== > RE: You are suggesting what I think is the more sensible understanding - that "what we take for conventional activities are in fact various dhammas, and these...do condition other dhammas." I think if everyone here were to apply that formula to our discussions it would have a positive impact. Too many times we dismiss conventional realities completely and see them as pure inventions. As distorted perceptions in which we see that which is fleeting as solid and lasting, and in which we freeze images of dhammas and combine them to create a false sense of a stable universe which we can control, we can see how delusion actually works to deny the characteristics of the dhammas that actually arise. I think this is an important understanding. > =============== J: Sorry, not sure what you're saying here, so don't feel I can comment. > =============== > RE: It also means that we can recognize the trace of dhammas in what we take for conventional realities. We can understand the properties of dhammas and recognize their fleetingness, at least intellectually, when we see conventional objects. > =============== J: Any sutta reference for the proposition that 'we can recognize the trace of dhammas in what we take for conventional realities'? It's not an approach that I recognise from my study of the texts. > =============== > > J: I do not read the teachings as directing us to inquire into 'what this conventional experience of life consists of, and how it is composed, and how we can see into it or see through it'. > > RE: I only mean it in the same sense that you seem to mean it - that we can recognize that where we see conventional objects, there are really dhammas. Can we recognize the theoretical presence of those dhammas and how they condition other dhammas? That seems to be suggested by what you said above. > =============== J: I would agree with the proposition that we see the world in terms of conventional objects, whereas the world as actually experienced is the dhammas spoken of by the Buddha. However, I would not agree that the development of the path involves seeing dhammas in (or behind) conventional objects. Now, it's true that when the Buddha spoke of the development of awareness of dhammas, he did so at times in the context of specific conventional (and kusala) activities. On those occasions he was, as I see it, directing his teaching to certain listeners who were already in the habit of developing those kinds of kusala. He was not specifying the development of those kinds of kusala as a prerequisite for the development of the path. The Buddha also taught, on many occasions, about dhammas in general, without reference to any particular conventional thing or activity. To my understanding, the path to attaining a view of the world that is free of the influence of ignorance and wrong view is the development of awareness of dhammas, regardless of the conventional situation, activity or thing of the moment. Jon #122461 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Feb 9, 2012 6:27 pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? Part 1 jonoabb Hi Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hi Jon, all, > ... > A: What about Right Livelihood, is it merely a split second moment? > =============== J: The 3 path factors of Right Speech, Right Action and Right Livelihood are (momentary) abstentions (Pali: virati) from unwholesome deeds of speech, of bodily action or in the course of one's livelihood. > =============== > A: What part in "He generates desire..." doesn't talk about deliberate mental action? > =============== J: The passage is a description of Right Effort. It is saying what Right Effort *is*, not *how* it is to be developed. When there is Right Effort, kusala desire etc. is being generated by the person. The passage is not saying to generate desire (first), then right effort will follow. > =============== > > J: In fact it can simply be read as a description of the effect > >================================ > > A: Every word is a description. There is also no problem with description of what needs to be done. One doesn't exclude the other. The Buddha described the path for us TO FOLLOW. > =============== J: Any textual support for the idea that the Buddha described a path to be *followed*? To my recollection, the texts describe the NEP as a path that is to be *developed*. Jon #122462 From: han tun Date: Thu Feb 9, 2012 6:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: United in Harmony :-) hantun1 Online Now Send IM Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, Ven Bhikkhu Samahita posted many useful suttas. But most of the time he did not mention the sutta title in Paa.li [English translation of the sutta title does not help me]. So I cannot find it in the books, and the usefulness of his posts was diluted for me. This time, you gave me the page reference of Bhikkhu Bodhi's book. I thank you very much for that and I can now find it in the books and I print below the full text of the sutta with Paa.li for information for those who are interested. AN 6.12 Dutiya Saara.niiya Sutta "There are, O monks, these six principles of cordiality that create love and respect and conduce to helpfulness, to non-dispute, to concord and to unity. What six? "Chayime , bhikkhave, dhammaa saara.niiyaa piyakara.naa garukara.naa sa"ngahaaya avivaadaaya saamaggiyaa ekiibhaavaaya sa.mvattanti. Katame cha? ---------- "Here, a monk maintains bodily acts of loving-kindness both in public and private towards his fellow monks. This is a principle of cordiality that creates love and respect and conduce to helpfulness, to non-dispute, to concord and to unity. "Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno metta.m kaayakamma.m paccupa.t.thita.m hoti sabrahmacaariisu aavi ceva raho ca, ayampi dhammo saara.niiyo piyakara.no garukara.no sa"ngahaaya avivaadaaya saamaggiyaa ekiibhaavaaya sa.mvattati. ---------- "Here, a monk maintains verbal acts of loving-kindness both in public and private towards his fellow monks. This is a principle of cordiality that creates love and respect and conduce to helpfulness, to non-dispute, to concord and to unity. "Puna capara.m, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno metta.m vaciikamma.m paccupa.t.thita.m hoti sabrahmacaariisu aavi ceva raho ca, ayampi dhammo saara.niiyo piyakara.no garukara.no sa"ngahaaya avivaadaaya saamaggiyaa ekiibhaavaaya sa.mvattati. ---------- "Here, a monk maintains mental acts of loving-kindness both in public and private towards his fellow monks. This is a principle of cordiality that creates love and respect and conduce to helpfulness, to non-dispute, to concord and to unity. "Puna capara.m, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno metta.m manokamma.m paccupa.t.thita.m hoti sabrahmacaariisu aavi ceva raho ca, ayampi dhammo saara.niiyo piyakara.no garukara.no sa"ngahaaya avivaadaaya saamaggiyaa ekiibhaavaaya sa.mvattati. ---------- "Again , a monk uses things in common with his virtuous fellow monks; without making reservations, he shares with them any righteous gain that has been righteously obtained, including even the contents of his bowl. This too is a principle of cordiality that creates love and respect and conduce to helpfulness, to non-dispute, to concord and to unity. "Puna capara.m, bhikkhave, bhikkhu ye te laabhaa dhammikaa dhammaladdhaa antamaso pattapariyaapannamattampi tathaaruupehi laabhehi appa.tivibhattabhogii hoti siilavantehi sabrahmacaariihi saadhaara.nabhogii, ayampi dhammo saara.niiyo piyakara.no garukara.no sa"ngahaaya avivaadaaya saamaggiyaa ekiibhaavaaya sa.mvattati. ---------- "Again, a monk dwells both in public and in private possessing in common with his fellow monks virtues that are unbroken, untorn, unblemished, unmottled, freeing, praised by the wise, unadhered to, leading to concentration. This too is a principle of cordiality that creates love and respect and conduce to helpfulness, to non-dispute, to concord and to unity. "Puna capara.m, bhikkhave, bhikkhu yaani taani siilaani akha.n.daani acchiddaani asabalaani akammaasaani bhujissaani vi~n~nuppasatthaani aparaama.t.thaani samaadhisa.mvattanikaani tathaaruupehi siilehi siilasaama~n~nagato viharati sabrahmacaariihi aavi ceva raho ca, ayampi dhammo saara.niiyo piyakara.no garukara.no sa"ngahaaya avivaadaaya saamaggiyaa ekiibhaavaaya sa.mvattati. ---------- "Again, a monk dwells both in public and in private possessing in common with his fellow monks the view that is noble and emancipating and that leads one who acts in accordance with it to the complete destruction of suffering [the right view associated with the noble path]. This too is a principle of cordiality that creates love and respect and conduce to helpfulness, to non-dispute, to concord and to unity. "Puna capara.m, bhikkhave, bhikkhu yaaya.m di.t.thi ariyaa niyyaanikaa niyyaati takkarassa sammaa dukkhakkhayaaya tathaaruupaaya di.t.thiyaa di.t.thisaama~n~nagato viharati sabrahmacaariihi aavi ceva raho ca, ayampi dhammo saara.niiyo piyakara.no garukara.no sa"ngahaaya avivaadaaya saamaggiyaa ekiibhaavaaya sa.mvattati. ---------- "These, monks, are the six principles of cordiality that create love and respect and conduce to helpfulness, to non-dispute, to concord and to unity." "Ime kho, bhikkhave, cha dhammaa saara.niiyaa piyakara.naa garukara.naa sa"ngahaaya avivaadaaya saamaggiyaa ekiibhaavaaya sa.mvattantii" ti. ---------- with metta and respect, Han #122463 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 9, 2012 7:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: United in Harmony :-) sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- On Thu, 9/2/12, han tun wrote: >Ven Bhikkhu Samahita posted many useful suttas. But most of the time he did not mention the sutta title in Paa.li [English translation of the sutta title does not help me]. So I cannot find it in the books, and the usefulness of his posts was diluted for me. This time, you gave me the page reference of Bhikkhu Bodhi's book. I thank you very much for that and I can now find it in the books and I print below the full text of the sutta with Paa.li for information for those who are interested. .... S: Excellent! Very helpful indeed. Great team work:) The references can be difficult to trace, I agree. Anytime, you're interested in one, let me know and I'm sure between us we can find it. I appreciate your work in sharing the full text and Pali. Metta Sarah >AN 6.12 Dutiya Saara.niiya Sutta "There are, O monks, these six principles of cordiality that create love and respect and conduce to helpfulness, to non-dispute, to concord and to unity. What six? <...> #122464 From: han tun Date: Thu Feb 9, 2012 10:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: United in Harmony :-) hantun1 Online Now Send IM Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, Sarah: The references can be difficult to trace, I agree. Anytime, you're interested in one, let me know and I'm sure between us we can find it. Han: Thank you very much. I will do that. with metta and respect, Han #122465 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 nilovg Dear Kevin, Op 8-feb-2012, om 18:12 heeft Kevin het volgende geschreven: > > > N: I am thinking now of mundane right understanding as developed by > > being mindful of the present reality. Supramundane understanding > is a > > goal that is far off and we cannot even imagine what it is like. Let > > us just attend to the present reality, I feel that that is enough > for > > now. And that is the way to understand what paramattha dhammas are, > > in other words, what the Abhidhamma is. > > ------- > > Kevin: Why would that be different? > ------ N: Sorry, I do not quite understand your question. You mean the difference between supramundane and mundane understanding? I would think the object is different: the first, as you know, has nibbaana as object, the second conditioned dhammas. ----- Nina. #122466 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 moellerdieter Dear Nina (and Kevin), you wrote: ------ N: Sorry, I do not quite understand your question. You mean the difference between supramundane and mundane understanding? I would think the object is different: the first, as you know, has nibbaana as object, the second conditioned dhammas. ----- D:I think a general distinction is provided by MN 117 (excerpt) : "And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with effluents [asava], siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right view, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path. "And what is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions. "And what is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, the path factor of right view of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path." with Metta Dieter #122467 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 3 moellerdieter Hi all, following the final part ( for now ) of excerpts from Nyanaponika's Abhidhamma Studies with Metta Dieter Bare analysis starts , or pretends to start, its investigation by selecting singly objects, existing in the sector of time which is called "present".The present is certainly "the only reality" in the sense of existence , but it is a very illusive "reality" which is constantly "on the move" from an "unreal"future to an "unreal" past. But strictly speaking , the object analysis when it is considered , already belongs to the past and no longer to the present. This is stated by the commentators of old " just it is impossible to touch with one's finger tip that very same finger , so too, the arising , continuing and ceasing of a thought , cannot be known by the same thought" (commentary to M.N. Anupada Sutta). This statement that, strictly speaking, a thought has not a present but a past object, hold good even if we have in mind the much wider term of "serial present" (santatipaccupana) , that is, the perceptible sequence of severals of consciousness which alone is actually experienced as "at present" , and if we ignore the so-called "momentary present" (khanapaccuppana) which consists of a single practically imperceptible moment of consciousness. To a philosophical mind , the duration of the object of bare analysis is an artifically delimited , elusive and not even genuine present leads to it a strangely illusory character which contrasts quaintly with the frequent assertion of "pure analysts" that only deals with "real facts" , yet those facts are constantly slipping through their fingers. At frequent and vivid experience and contemplation of that illusory nature of the present , not in the well known general sense but, as established by Abhidhamma analysis, will greatly help in the final understanding of sunnata , that is voidness or unsubstantiality . We have noted how bare analysis starts with single objects occuring in the present. But even the most complacent analysis cannot afford to stop at that point. They have to take cognizarise of the fact that other "single" objects existing in the "same" space-time , act upon their original object and are "acted upon " their original object , and are actual upon" by it. They also have to take notice that the object chosen undergoes before their eyes a series of consecutive changes. In view of these facts , analysis must renounce its self sufficiency and admit within the range of its scruitiny at least those two relational facts mentioned above . After that extension of range we can now speak of " qualified analysis". In its widened scope "qualified analysis " spreads , as it were, its object and the results of its investigation over a place or surface, only with the two dimensions of breadth and lengths . The " breadth " consists in the frist-mentioned relational fact that the co-existence of other phenomena in so far as they are in interconnection with the orginal object of analysis. The "length" signifies the second relational fact: : the sequence of obeserved, consecutive changes streching forward in time, thus , in qualified analysis only those of the 24 Modes of Conditionally (paccayaq) tretaed in the Patthana are taken into consideration that refer to co-existence (e.g. sahajata -paccaya, "conascene") or to linear sequence (e.g. anantara -paccaya, "continguity) Both bare and qualified analyses are closely bound to a spatial view of the world , and , as we have seen, to a two-dimensional space only. Those who rely on these two kind of analysis fear nothing so much as the disturbing intrusion of the time-factor into their well-ordered by static, sham world of supposedly "unambigiguous and palpable facts". Having had to admit the time-factor, at least partially, by way of the two relational facts mentioned above, qualified analysis endeavours to render the time effect as harmless as possible by trying to reduce it to spatial terms of juxtapositions , etc.. The co-existent things are, as we have seen , arranged into the dimension of breadth, which we might accept provisionally. The fact of changes is disposed of by imagining the singly phases of the changes occured, were an extent in space along which the object moved. Obviously, the strange assumption is that while the object "changes its place" along that stretch of time it also changes in some mysterious way its nature , that is , it undergoes the observed alterations of , say, ageing. In that way sequence in time appears to bare and qualified analysis like a cinema in which a great number of single static pictures are substituted quickly enough to produce in the spectator the effect of moving pictures. This illustration, after Bergson, is very frequently used in literature with or without the implication, that, properly speaking, motion or change is illusory , or a reality of a lesser degree, while only the single static pictures, that is , self identical physical and/or psychic (time) atoms have genuine reality. But according to the Buddha the very reverse is true: change or flux is real , and the single state pictures (that is ,individuals, atoms ,etc) are illusory . If we take up another aspect of that same simile , we shall get a more correct view of the facts concerned : to take a film of moving objects with the help of a mechanism called a "camera" and thereby to dissect the continuous motion of the objects , might be to the perceptional activity of the mind , which by necessity , must fictiously arrest the flux of phenomena in order to discriminate. #122468 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 nilovg Dear Diter, thank you for the text. I have to think it over and see the commentary, since it is not easy to understand. Nina. Op 9-feb-2012, om 15:14 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > D:I think a general distinction is provided by MN 117 (excerpt) : > > "And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: > There is right view with effluents [asava], siding with merit, > resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble > right view, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path. #122469 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 moellerdieter Dear Nina, all, a good and necessary topic to discuss : the mundane and the supramundane right understanding/view , because it concerns as well the issue of the conventional world and the world of conditioned dhammas, both true within their domain , relative to the view . As I understand some members deny the reality of the mundane /conventional world , claiming the only truth is the reality of the world of dhammas.. looking forward to talk about ... with Metta Dieter . ----- Original Message ----- From: Nina van Gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 3:59 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 Dear Diter, thank you for the text. I have to think it over and see the commentary, since it is not easy to understand. Nina. Op 9-feb-2012, om 15:14 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > D:I think a general distinction is provided by MN 117 (excerpt) : > > "And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: > There is right view with effluents [asava], siding with merit, > resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble > right view, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] #122470 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 nilovg Dear Dieter, When reading the sutta quote you gave I am inclined to think of the D.O. link: ignorance conditions meritorious dhamma. All kusala that is not accompanied by right understanding of the eightfold Path does not lead to liberation. But, as said, I have to think it over. Nina. Op 9-feb-2012, om 16:24 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > a good and necessary topic to discuss : the mundane and the > supramundane right understanding/view , because it concerns as well > the issue of the conventional world and the world of conditioned > dhammas, both true within their domain , relative to the view . > As I understand some members deny the reality of the mundane / > conventional world , claiming the only truth is the reality of the > world of dhammas.. #122471 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:34 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti epsteinrob Hi Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sukinder wrote: > > Hello Rob E, > > > > > What you have said is understood. But I am looking for something more > > specific. You say that citta takes the concept as an object, but that > > it does not rise or fall. Fine. How does the concept come to be taken > > as object when it does not exist? Is it merely an idea created by the > > thinking process? When I proposed that citta created the concept as > > part of its moment of thinking, that was rejected by Scott. > > > > S: Were you not suggesting that for something to be time-freed that it > must exist? Not particularly. What I wonder is whether that is redundant or not. Isn't it misleading to say something is a/ not really there, and b/ "free" of something else. Why does something that doesn't exist in time in the first place have to be "free" of the laws of time? I think what is meant is that concept does not arise or fall because it is not a reality, so does not follow the laws of realities that come into actual existence and then fall away. That is fine, but I still think the language is difficult and perhaps misleading. I'm interested in precise understanding of certain things - who knows why. God [or whoever] knows that I am less precise on many other things, but if I am trying to understand something I want to know what is really going on. So if I say a "unicorn is free of time," it makes it sound like a unicorn exists and is free from the constraints of time. I know that is not what is meant by concepts being "time freed" but it is colorful language that sounds romantic and I wonder why it has to be put that way? What is the purpose? And then I want to know what is really meant? I feel the same way about "own-being," svabhava. Why would you want to say "own-being" which makes it sound like a dhamma has a very special kind of beingness of its own that it owns and that is its property. I know that is not what is meant, but I really do wonder why you would want to put something in a misleadingly romanticized kind of language that makes it sound special and precious when the intention is exactly the opposite - to show that dhammas are empty so citta can detach from them completely. So it seems self-defeating and confusing to me to put things that way, and I also suspect that somewhere along the way a sense of spiritual self-concept may have crept into such language. Why not just say that concepts "don't exist in time, they only exist as an idea in a moment of thinking" or something like that, and for "own-being" to leave it said that it has "its own characteristic during its brief existence" rather than say it has "own-being" which sounds like an alternate possession of a self? I think these are serious issues about how these things are expressed that are more confusing and romantic than helpful and tending towards detachment. From what I can see there is no reason to use such romanticized terms for simple non-existence and simple characteristic of a mechanical arising dhamma that has certain properties for a moment of existence. > Perhaps Scott's objection is to the idea that thoughts are > 'produced' by thinking. Dhammas condition each other, they don't create > anything. This is a very helpful idea that I would like to know more about. What is the difference between something being "conditioned" to arise with certain properties and it being "created" to be that way? Is it just semantic or more serious? What is the special understanding of "conditioned" that makes it more precise than "created?" This seems like an important thing to understand. > Why thoughts can't be said to be the 'product' of thinking is because > what takes place is that dhammas condition each other and not one giving > rise to the other. All nama dhammas rise and fall away at the same time, > and rupas of the senses must in fact arise before the nama dhammas > experiencing it. Well that is fine. My problem is that concepts apparently don't follow those laws, so how does the concept exist at all? If it is non-existent -- not sure what that means completely -- then why is it "in the thought?" How can we talk about cars and bodies and all that and say they are "nonexistent" at the same time? I'd like to know what the actuality of that is. Obviously the concept exists in a certain way -- as a part of image or language that can be referenced within a thought -- and doesn't exist in a more substantial way -- as an arising dhamma that has actuality. Yet we are constantly tricked in deluded thinking into believing that what we refer to in thought and language *does* exist, so it seems that it comes to appear in an important way, even though not arising like dhammas. So what is that all about? > To illustrate, consider a moment of direct understanding of a dhamma. > Can it be said that citta or panna or any of the accompanying mental > factors "create" the object? No, I understand this point. But here we are talking about dhammas or cetasikas, that, unlike concepts, do come into existence because of conditions. So the problem is only with how concepts are created. There is no problem in this discussion about how dhammas arise. They come out of conditions. > Thinking, like a moment of direct > understanding is a volitional process and is accompanied by more or less > the same cetasikas each performing their particular functions including > perception, applied thinking, sustained thinking, attention and so on. > So when thoughts are object of citta, they are not "produced" but more > like shadows of the thinking process. Well that is a clue to the reality and non-reality of these thoughts. It exists like a shadow of the real process. Okay, somehow that translates into concepts that appear to recur as real things, but are not. > Besides, for a concept to be > recognizable as "something", this involves many, many process of cittas > where perceptions of raw color take place. So what happens is that one > citta conditions the next one on and on and the "something" which > finally comes to be the object, is a matter of what happens to precede. This is very good - I appreciate this good detailed information about how that happens. It almost tells me how the concept comes into seeming existence, but not quite. I'm getting there though! > > So all I am asking is technically how does the non-existent concept > > come to be taken as object. Where does it come from and how does it > > come and go if it does not rise and fall? Obviously it does not exist > > in the absence of thought since it does not exist except as object of > > thought, so does it come with thought and go away when thought is > > ended? How does it work? > > > > S: I'd be speculating as I've done above. And although as you can see, I > do sometimes think about it, however I do not consider it useful to do > so. And I wonder why you should find this important. Well I find it important because it keeps coming up all the time. We are dealing with concepts, concepts, concepts, and saying they don't really exist. I think if we have to keep dealing with them, we should have some idea what is going on. Otherwise it seems to me it is even more deluded, because we do take the concepts as if they exist, even while saying they do not. If we understand what the "trick" of pannati is, I think we have a better chance of looking at them with skepticism and moving on to the dhammas instead of getting stuck on our favorite concepts. ... > As you can see, thinking happens all the time. What is more important > therefore is to know the particular dhammas conditioning the thinking > and not the mechanism itself. For example when you think and ask these > particular questions, is this motivated by attachment and wrong view, or > is it by understanding? Would the answer given lead to seeing the > importance of understanding the present moment or just more thinking > with attachment? If the latter, what is the point then? No for me I think it is helpful, so I can stop being confused by it. It is distracting to have all this unreality around and not know what it's doing there. I'd rather have a sense of what is happening, so I can see that they are not realities, not dhammas, more clearly, and head in the right direction. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #122472 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 moellerdieter Dear Nina, you wrote: N: Long ago when I was reading this I spoke about it to Kh Sujin. She answered: without analysis there cannot be the synthetic method. But I think that also Ven. N. pointed this out? D: yes, clearly shown by the text I quoted N:I myself think that we have to understand naama and ruupa as they appear one at a time so that, later on, we can grasp their relations within the D.O. In the Visuddhimagga, as I mentioned before, it is meaningful that first each type of condition is dealt with before coming to the D.O. When looking at the links of D.O. we have to understand in what ways each of these links conditions the following one. It is very intricate because there are several types of conditions operating at the same time. -------- D: yes, 'intricate' was my impression too when I read about the modes of Patthana ... In fact what the Venerable says is , those who are concentrating on the analytic method only may doing so because the Dhammasangani is easier to read than the Patthana. ;-) I think there is some basic understanding of D.O. necessary (sutta) before dealing with the detailed types of condition , isn't it? N: I am thinking now of mundane right understanding as developed by being mindful of the present reality. Supramundane understanding is a goal that is far off and we cannot even imagine what it is like. Let us just attend to the present reality, I feel that that is enough for now. And that is the way to understand what paramattha dhammas are, in other words, what the Abhidhamma is D: I am looking forward to learn about your consideration , as mentioned in the latest posting. with Metta Dieter #122473 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:54 am Subject: Re: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? Part 1 truth_aerator Jon, >J: Any textual support for the idea that the Buddha described a >path >to be *followed*? To my recollection, the texts describe the >NEP as a >path that is to be *developed*. >================================== In countless of suttas and in VsM there are plenty of statements that describe what to do. The Buddha described the path to us. When the Buddha tells us, what do you think He wants us to do? In Satipatthana sutta it does tell us that: There is the case where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building — sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/017-vanapattha\ \-sutta-e1.html And in plenty of suttas the Buddha recommended: "And what more is to be done? There is the case where a monk seeks out a secluded dwelling: a forest, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html [ Commentary on Introductory Paragraph ] 184. Here: in this view, in this choice, in this preference, in this selection, in this True Idea, in this Discipline (vinaya), in this field of True Idea and Discipline, in this doctrine, in this Good Life, in this Master's Dispensation. Hence 'here' is said. 185. A bhikkhu: a bhikkhu is a magnanimous ordinary man or an Initiate or an Arahant who has reached the unassailable idea. 186. Forest: having gone out beyond the boundary post, all that is forest. 187. Root of a tree: where the bhikkhu's seat is prepared, or his bed or his chair or his mattress or his mat or his piece of hide or his spread of grass or his spread of leaves, or his spread of straw, there he walks or stands or sits or lies down. 188. Empty: unfrequented by laymen or by those gone forth into homelessness. 189. Place: dwelling, lean-to, mansion, villa, cave. 190. Sits down; having folded his legs crosswise: he is seated, having folded his legs crosswise. 191. Set his body erect: his body is erect, [firmly] placed, properly disposed. - Patisambhidamagga explanation page 176-177 ======================================================= So the Blessed One said 'gone to the forest', etc., to point out a forest abode as a place likely to hasten his advancement. 158. Herein, gone to the forest is gone to any kind of forest possessing the bliss of seclusion among the kinds of forests characterized thus: 'Having gone out beyond the boundary post, all that is forest' (Ps.i,176; Vbh. 251), and 'A forest abode is five hundred bow lengths distant' (Vin.iv,183). To the root of a tree: gone to the vicinity of a tree. To an empty place: gone to an empty, secluded space. And here he can be said to have gone to an 'empty place' if he has gone to any of the remaining seven kinds of abode (resting place).42 - VsM VIII ============================================================== "Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will relentlessly exert ourselves, [thinking,] "Gladly would we let the flesh & blood in our bodies dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, but if we have not attained what can be reached through human firmness, human persistence, human striving, there will be no relaxing our persistence."' That's how you should train yourselves." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.005.than.html =============================================================== It clearly describes a path that needs to happen. To say otherwise, would be a contradiction of suttas and VsM. It is a description of the path. It doesn't include "any place is the right place". What do you think AN2.5 describes?! The path that is developed as the Buddha recommends. So are you saying that suttas do not describe the path? Are you saying that suttas wrongly describe the path? With metta, Alex #122474 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:58 am Subject: link correction truth_aerator Hi Jon, >In Satipatthana sutta it does tell us that: >There is the case where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the >shade of a tree, or to an empty building — sits down folding his legs >crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore >[lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful >he breathes out. The link should be: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.html What do you think it describes in MN10? With best wishes, Alex #122475 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 scottduncan2 Dieter, D: "...As I understand some members deny the reality of the mundane /conventional world , claiming the only truth is the reality of the world of dhammas..looking forward to talk about ..." Scott: Okay, what is 'real' about, say, a tree? Scott. #122476 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:04 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > Now, it's true that when the Buddha spoke of the development of awareness of dhammas, he did so at times in the context of specific conventional (and kusala) activities. On those occasions he was, as I see it, directing his teaching to certain listeners who were already in the habit of developing those kinds of kusala. He was not specifying the development of those kinds of kusala as a prerequisite for the development of the path. > > The Buddha also taught, on many occasions, about dhammas in general, without reference to any particular conventional thing or activity. > > To my understanding, the path to attaining a view of the world that is free of the influence of ignorance and wrong view is the development of awareness of dhammas, regardless of the conventional situation, activity or thing of the moment. I think that's a pretty helpful statement about conventional activities and the path. I don't know if it resolves all my confusion about our relationship -- or lack thereof -- with pannati, but it's a good summary of why we should direct our attention to dhammas, and not to concepts. Now let's see if I can break my pannati addiction. [Doubt it.] Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - #122477 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 moellerdieter Hi Scott, you wrote: (D: "...As I understand some members deny the reality of the mundane /conventional world , claiming the only truth is the reality of the world of dhammas..looking forward to talk about ...") Scott: Okay, what is 'real' about, say, a tree? D: well, there may be people who had an unfortunate encounter with that reality .. but as you may have noted , I prefer to talk about MN 117 as quoted before coming back on the old issue of concept and paramattha . with Metta Dieter #122478 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:47 am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma Studies part 1 scottduncan2 Dieter, "(D: '...As I understand some members deny the reality of the mundane /conventional world , claiming the only truth is the reality of the world of dhammas..looking forward to talk about ...')...but as you may have noted , I prefer to talk about MN 117 as quoted before coming back on the old issue of concept and paramattha ." Scott: Oh, I see, Dieter, of course. I had misunderstand what seemed to be an invitation to discuss 'mundane/conventional world' and 'world of dhammas' (often referred to as 'paramattha') and so erroneously thought that 'the old issue of concept and paramattha' was once again coming up for discussion - in particular with the specific mention of 'some members' and the so-called denial of the 'mundane/conventional world.' I was not privvy to the specific order of discussion that had already been organised and so will recede until the preceding discussion of the sutta, which may or may not refer to so-called Abhidhamma, runs it's course (should I be able to discern this when the time comes). Scott. #122479 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:21 am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma Studies part 1 (typo) scottduncan2 Dieter, Me: "...I had misunderstand..." Scott: This, of course, should have been 'misunderstood' rather than 'misunderstand,' which I typed in error. Scott. #122480 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:35 am Subject: The Hungry Ghosts... bhikkhu5 Friends: The Benefit of Giving & Dedication of Merit: Buddha spoke on Ghosts (Petas) , who walk through walls & who need our help: Outside the walls they stand and wait, and at the junctions and road-forks, Returning to their prior homes, urging! They wait beside the posts of gates. But when a rich feast is set out with food & drink of every kind, remember the fact that few humans do recall: These pellucid ghosts was created from their past own acts. So they who are compassionate, who have a heart to give to their relatives such drink and food as may be pure. And good and fitting at these times: Then let this food be for the ghost relatives; May the ghost relatives have some happiness.! These ghosts of the departed of my family Foregathered and assembled there will eagerly their blessing give. For plentiful rich food and drink: So may our relatives live long, Owing to whom we have this gain, for honour to us has thus been done, No giver ever lacked the sweet fruit. In the dimension of these Ghosts, There is never any ploughing there, nor any cattle-herding found, Nor merchandizing just the same, nor bartering for coin of gold: The ghosts of your departed family, live there on anything given only here; As water showered on the hill, flows down to reach the hollow vale, So giving given here can serve the ghosts of your departed family. As river-beds, when full can bear the water down to fill the sea, So giving given here can serve the ghosts of the departed family there. He gave to me, he worked for me, he was my family, friend, & intimate! Give gifts, then, for departed ones, recalling what they used to do. No weeping, nor yet sorrowing, nor any kind of mourning, helps the Departed Ones, whose family remain unhelpful to them acting thus silly. But when this offering is given and well placed in the Sangha Community For them, then it can serve them long in future and at once as well. The True Dhamma for relatives has here been shown, and how high honour to departed ones is done, and how the Bhikkhus can be given strength as well, And how great merit can be stored away by you. Therefore: Dedicate the merit of any gift to your hungry Ghost Family! The suffer a lot, wailing in despair, but in vain, repenting their evil deeds. There are ghost who only can feed on: corpses, or excrement, or abortions, or menstruation, or ash, or earth, or glowing embers and many similar pains... Ghost existence is mainly the result of stealing and cheating with values! <....> Video also featuring Ghosts and their sad fate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QDBHCxvX-Q The Hungry Ghosts... Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #122481 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:50 pm Subject: A Cat Is Dying. scottduncan2 All, My cat is dying. She is in her twentieth year. I'll not take her to a vet. Why ask another to incur akusala kamma? She is sleeping and sleeping. She is dying. The Dhamma teaches that 'she' is a fabrication. So what if she's been with me for almost twenty years? What is that twenty years? Nothing. Each moment is long gone. Whatever 'stream' conditioning thoughts about a cat named 'Miss Little' will continue when it's first citta arises in it's next realm. This is beyond us all. This 'stream' is on it's own. My attachment to a cat is akusala. My thoughts about a cat are wrong. Is she comfortable? Can I be kind to her? Do I get up in the night when she calls, is confused, can't get away from the stairs when she climbed there in her weakness and confusion while I slept? I put her back in her bed. She won't drink. She's off her food for three days. She is dying. Do I weep? Am I sad? Yes. This too is akusala. So what? It is arising and that is all there is to it. Does pa~n~naa note it? Do I cry when I think about her being gone? This is akusala. So what? My cat is dying. We are all dying. We, none of us, are what we think we are. Scott. #122482 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:49 pm Subject: Re: A Cat Is Dying. epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > All, > > My cat is dying. She is in her twentieth year. I'll not take her to a vet. Why ask another to incur akusala kamma? She is sleeping and sleeping. She is dying. The Dhamma teaches that 'she' is a fabrication. So what if she's been with me for almost twenty years? What is that twenty years? Nothing. Each moment is long gone. Whatever 'stream' conditioning thoughts about a cat named 'Miss Little' will continue when it's first citta arises in it's next realm. This is beyond us all. This 'stream' is on it's own. My attachment to a cat is akusala. My thoughts about a cat are wrong. Is she comfortable? Can I be kind to her? Do I get up in the night when she calls, is confused, can't get away from the stairs when she climbed there in her weakness and confusion while I slept? I put her back in her bed. She won't drink. She's off her food for three days. She is dying. Do I weep? Am I sad? Yes. This too is akusala. So what? It is arising and that is all there is to it. Does pa~n~naa note it? Do I cry when I think about her being gone? This is akusala. So what? > > My cat is dying. We are all dying. We, none of us, are what we think we are. Thanks for your thoughts on this difficult subject in your current situation, which is sad none the less. I think your thoughts about this have value. Much metta to both you and the cat. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - #122483 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:53 pm Subject: Re: On understanding & action sarahprocter... Hi Phil & Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > Ph: "...It may or may not be worthwhile to establish that Dieter doesn't accept the ephemeral cetasika as taught in Abhidhamma..." > > Scott: Yeah, this is how I see it. And this is what I'm pointing out, however obliquely. As I see it, Dieter has the 'standard' modern view, at the totally conceptual, non-Abhidhamma level, of suttanta division Dependent Origination as the 'model' and the only way to consider things. He does not accept that dhammas are momentary. He does not know what a mental factor actually is yet. ..... S: Well, does anyone ever know what a mental factor is? Isn't it panna that occasionally arises which may or may not know what a mental factor is? Does it really help at all to think in terms of X thinking or not knowing ABC? Isn't there an implicit comparing to Y or ME who does think correctly or know ABC? We've all written and said many strange and erroneous things surely, but ideas and understandings change, so it may be a kindness to not dwell on or dredge up some of these past comments - a bit like the idea of forgiveness or 'letting go' as a kind of dana. I liked these reminders by Ken H: >KH: >There is no someone, there are only dhammas. >The conditioned dhammas that contemplate will either arise or they will not arise: there is no control over them. There are only dhammas, and they depend on other dhammas, not on "us." >KH: In ultimate truth and reality there is no email and no writer. That is the point of the Buddha's teaching (satipatthana) - to know ultimate truth and reality here and now. ... S: "...to know ultimate truth and reality here and now". What are the cittas, the mental factors now as we write? Kusala or akusala? What about seeing, visible object, feeling and other realities? When there's awareness, there's no idea of a person having certain ideas or having a right/wrong understanding of anything. Metta Sarah ==== #122484 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:00 pm Subject: Re: A Cat Is Dying. sarahprocter... Dear Scott, Thanks for sharing all your wise thoughts. Conditioned dhammas and the sadness is most understandable. How wonderful to have heard the Dhamma and to understand all this. When there's kindness for Miss Little, no sadness. She's fortunate to have lived in such a caring home all these years. Best wishes to you and Miss Little. Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > All, > > My cat is dying. <...> #122485 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:08 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > S: Samsara concerns the realities arising in a split second, making up a moment of samsara, as conditioned directly or indirectly by delusion. > > Does this imply that the rupas that exist independent of citta are not part of samsara? I guess there are aspects of the universe of arising rupas that is just a natural occurrence and has nothing to do with us? And that is not part of samsara? ... S: Yes, if the rupas arise and fall away "out in the forest" and are not experienced, then they are of "no concern" - they are not conditioned by avijja or kamma, they are not the object of lobha. The Path is the direct knowing of what 'appears', what is directly experienced - that which leads to the end of samsara. Like the scientist, we could spend our lives speculating about elements that are not experienced, but it would take us no closer to the truth. Regardless, when there is direct understanding of namas and rupas appearing now, it's clear that there are only namas and rupas arising and falling away, regardless of any experience. Metta Sarah ===== #122486 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:31 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > S: All kamma is nama , cetana cetasika in particular- when it is strong enough, it conditions various rupas, such as those we call speech or deeds. > >R: Actually this was a very helpful clarification above, because I was especially wondering about the attendant rupas that would be involved in physical kamma patha, and you have explained it. The cetana and the other namas involved create the kamma, and they also condition the rupas that we experience as action or a "physical" result. Or in the case of speech kamma patha, the rupas that we refer to as the "physical act" of speech. .... S: Yes, you've put it well. ... > > S: It is the strength of the intention that has conditioned what we refer to conceptually as a "physical act on a conceptual being". Just namas conditioning various rupas. > >R: I wonder where the concepts involved come into play though? ... S: Only in the communication. In fact, only paramattha dhammas. ... >R:If "Murdering a parent" has an especially strong akusala cetana that conditions [the rupas of?] a particularly horrible vipaka that are experienced in a future life, the "thought of the parent" being "murdered" must play a role, otherwise the horrible cetana would not have an object that it builds around. ... S: Yes, the akusala cetana is stronger/more virulent when there is the idea that it is a parent being murdered. We read in the texts about how the intention is stronger when it is a larger animal than a smaller one and how more force/work is required. Stronger still is the intention to kill a human and particularly so when it is a parent. Of course, the strongest or worst of all is the intention to harm or kill an arahat and particularly a Buddha, on account of their purity and noble qualities. As you suggest, it all depends on conceptual thinking and erroneous ideas about taking the life of another, being harmed by others and so on. ... >So doesn't the thought of who is to murdered play a role, or are there special namas that create the impression that it is a parent being murdered, or another negative situation, which then corresponds to the intensity of the akusala cetana? ... S: It is the thought, based on particular namas and rupas, which create the impression. Sometimes the "impression" may be wrong. Someone might go to stamp on an insect only to find it's dead already. Or someone may not know who a person is. Many factors are involved for the kamma patha to be complete. ... > > S: Vipaka is always the result of one's own kamma, never of another's. Death consciousness, cuti citta is the result of the past kamma which also resulted in the birth consciousness, patisandhi citta and all the bhavanga cittas (life continuum cittas) of that same life-time. > >R: Not sure if this is a misunderstanding, or if I don't fully get the meaning of the answer. I am thinking of these passages where the Buddha said that a person who had murdered a person or animal with extreme cruelty would experience the vipaka of themselves being murdered in a horrible way a number of lifetimes in a row. That is a very specific vipaka that corresponds to the extreme akusala cetana that they had in the former life to cruelly murder another being. ... S: The original akusala kamma patha involved in the murderous intentions and acts will bring its result by way or vipaka - an unhappy rebirth and akusala vipaka in future life/lives. I agree that when reading the texts, there often seems to be a 'link'. In the future lives, there may be the akusala vipaka through the body-sense and so on when attacked/murdered which seems to correspond to the original deed. In fact, the death consciousness, the cuti citta, can only be a result of the person's own deed - the same akusala kamma patha that conditioned the unhappy rebirth in that future life. .... >R: So I guess that experience of being murdered would be some series of cittas experiencing a number of unpleasant rupas that represent their death-experience? Would that be in the right ball park? ... S: Yes, there would be most likely be cittas experiencing unpleasant rupas through the body-sense, conditioned by past kamma. The death itself, as mentioned, is also caused by previous kamma. Just before that death, kamma determines the next moment of birth, immediately following the death consciousness. We have to come closer and closer to understanding the paramattha dhammas for the "full picture" to make sense. It's not easy - I appreciate your good questions. Metta Sarah ====== #122487 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "endeavoring beings are clearly discerned" sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > >A: Actually there is puggala and attakari > > > > D: good quotations , Alex. > > What there is , that is depending on the angle of view, isn't it? > ... > S: No, what there is, is just citta, cetasika and rupa, regardless of the angle of view. > > Whether a Buddha appears in the world or not, the Truths are the Truths, there are just dhammas which are anatta. > ... > > D: depending on your choice of view : conventional or ultimate .... S: Whether there is right view or wrong view, whether there is an understanding of ultimate realities or not, the Truths are the same, there are just dhammas which are anatta. There is a good sutta in AN about this which I've quoted before, but can't find it on a quick look. ... > S: Again, whether there is any understanding, any elightenment or not, "no doer can be found " within any of the khandhas. > D: I am as stubborn as you , Sarah ;-) > there is a conventional truth and there is an ultimate truth .. > Yes,'no doer can be found ' within any of the khandhas, that has been taught . Ulltimate truth . .... S: Yes, ultimate truth - in other words, the truth about what is real. Even when we speak conventionally, it is still the truth that in actuality there is "no doer can be found within any of the khandhas." Whatever language we use, only namas and rupas. .... > > How about conventional truth? (the doer ("I" ) of the former wrote about the latter ) <...> > furthermore M. 117:"I tell you, o monks, there are 2 kinds of right view: the understanding that it is good to give alms and offerings, that both good and evil actions will bear fruit and will be followed by results.... This, o monks, is a view which, though still subject to the cankers, is meritorious, yields worldly fruits, and brings good results. But whatever there is of wisdom, of penetration, of right view conjoined with the path - the holy path being pursued, this is called the supermundane right view (lokuttara-samma-ditthi), which is not of the world, but which is supermundane and conjoined with the path." .... S: This (117) is not referring to conventional truths, but to ultimate truths (albeit using conventional language). It is referring to samma ditthi of the path, the mundane path (lokiya) path and the supramundane path (lokuttara) path. Whilst it is the right view and other path factors arising which is not the lokuttara path, the anusayas (latent tendencies) have not yet been eradicated and these condition the arising of the asavas (cankers). At the various stages of the lokuttara magga cittas, the anusayas are eradicated, so no more arising of the asavas as conditioned by those anusayas. Metta Sarah ==== #122488 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "endeavoring beings are clearly discerned" sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > >A: Actually there is puggala and attakari > > > > > > D: good quotations , Alex. > > > What there is , that is depending on the angle of view, isn't it? > > ... > > S: No, what there is, is just citta, cetasika and rupa, regardless of the angle of view. > > > > Whether a Buddha appears in the world or not, the Truths are the Truths, there are just dhammas which are anatta. > > ... > D: depending on your choice of view : conventional or ultimate ... S: Just found the sutta: AN 3s, 134 "The Three Characteristics of Existence" (Bodhi transl, "Numerical Discourses") "Whether Tathaagatas arise in the world or not, it still remains a fact, a firm and necessary condition of existence, that all formations are impermanent...that all formations are suffering.... that all things are not-self (sabbe dhammaa anattaa). "A Tathaagata fully awakens to this fact and penetrates it. Having fully awakened to it and penetrated it, he announces it, teaches it, makes it known, presents it, discloses it, analyses it and explains it: that all formations are impermanent, that all formations are subject to suffering, that all things are non-self." Metta Sarah ===== #122489 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:28 pm Subject: Re: A Cat Is Dying. szmicio Hi Scott, My dog also died around 3 weeks ago. We had it more than 10 years. I think this is not about the dog or cat, this is about us. What we see, hear, smell, taste and touch is vipaka. This is result of past deeds we've done. Thinking is a kilesa, that condition all this samsara. Even when we want to change our thnking, to sufer less we cant. This pertains pakatupanisaya paccaya, that conditions kusala akusala thinking. Now i am attached to see and to talk with Luraya more, but she is not there. Those are only moments of seeing and touching, moments of vipaka that are conditioned, we cant have more if we want to. Also pakatupanisaya is conditioned, all jealessy or wanting to call. This is all conditioned. Some people would call her some not. Conditioned and no time to think of that cause it's gone now, it's fast. Just my thoughts. Best wishes Lukas > > My cat is dying. She is in her twentieth year. I'll not take her to a vet. Why ask another to incur akusala kamma? She is sleeping and sleeping. She is dying. #122490 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:48 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: >> Like the scientist, we could spend our lives speculating about elements that are not experienced, but it would take us no closer to the truth. Regardless, when there is direct understanding of namas and rupas appearing now, it's clear that there are only namas and rupas arising and falling away, regardless of any experience. > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > Dear Sarah The thing is the Abhidhamma and suttas have many things which we cannot directly experience, yet I would suggest they are useful to know. Take the case of spontaneously born beings: I think it is part of right view to know they exist. Or rupas that are arising now that we do not experience- important to understand that they are occuring and arise whether we experience them or not. You might say 'it takes us no closer to the truth' to believe the abhidhamma is correct about eyebase arising(which i think we would rarely if ever experience:Again I think it is a part of intellectual understanding. Robert #122491 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. sarahprocter... Dear Rob K (& Rob E), --- On Fri, 10/2/12, rjkjp1 wrote: >The thing is the Abhidhamma and suttas have many things which we cannot directly experience, yet I would suggest they are useful to know. ... S: Yes, if they are related to the Truths, to the continuation of and release from samsara, the topic Rob E and I were discussing. .... >Take the case of spontaneously born beings: I think it is part of right view to know they exist. >Or rupas that are arising now that we do not experience- important to understand that they are occuring and arise whether we experience them or not. >You might say 'it takes us no closer to the truth' to believe the abhidhamma is correct about eyebase arising(which i think we would rarely if ever experience:Again I think it is a part of intellectual understanding. ... S: You are referring to "experience" as in know. In my message to which you replied, I wrote: >>S: Yes, if the rupas arise and fall away "out in the forest" and are not experienced, then they are of "no concern" - they are not conditioned by avijja or kamma, they are not the object of lobha. The Path is the direct knowing of what 'appears', what is directly experienced - that which leads to the end of samsara. ... S: Eye-sense is conditioned by avijja and kamma. Without it, there can be no seeing of visible object. It is the object of lobha. Like with other dhammas "here and now", there has to be intellectual understanding leading to direct understanding of whatever appears. In the paragraph below, I was referring to elements "in the forest" which are not the object of clinging. These are not upadana khandha if there is no clinging. Regardless, when there is understanding of dhammas appearing now, namas and rupas, it's clear that the "All" -- including those khandhas which are not upadana khandhas -- can only be elements arising and falling away. This would include what are referred to as "spontaneous beings". I hope this is clearer now. Metta Sarah >Like the scientist, we could spend our lives speculating about elements that are not experienced, but it would take us no closer to the truth. Regardless, when there is direct understanding of namas and rupas appearing now, it's clear that there are only namas and rupas arising and falling away, regardless of any experience. #122492 From: han tun Date: Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:13 pm Subject: Those who are afraid of death and those who are not hantun1 Dear Nina and others, Today, I wish to present AN 4.184 Abhaya Sutta: Fearless translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.184.than.html In this sutta Lord Buddha told Janussonin the brahman that there are those who, subject to death, are afraid and in terror of death, and that there are those who, subject to death, are not afraid or in terror of death. Four types of people who are afraid of death are [Paa.li words are inserted by me taken from the Paa.li Pi.taka Text.]: (1) "And who is the person who, subject to death, is afraid & in terror of death? There is the case of the person who has not abandoned passion, desire, fondness, thirst, fever, and craving for sensuality. [Idha, braahma.na, ekacco kaamesu aviitaraago hoti avigatacchando avigatapemo avigatapipaaso avigatapari.laaho avigatata.nho.] Then he comes down with a serious disease. As he comes down with a serious disease, the thought occurs to him, 'O, those beloved sensual pleasures will be taken from me, and I will be taken from them!' He grieves and is tormented, weeps, beats his breast, and grows delirious. This is a person who, subject to death, is afraid and in terror of death. (2) "Furthermore, there is the case of the person who has not abandoned passion, desire, fondness, thirst, fever, and craving for the body. [Puna capara.m, braahma.na, idhekacco kaaye aviitaraago hoti avigatacchando avigatapemo avigatapipaaso avigatapari.laaho avigatata.nho.] Then he comes down with a serious disease. As he comes down with a serious disease, the thought occurs to him, 'O, my beloved body will be taken from me, and I will be taken from my body!' He grieves and is tormented, weeps, beats his breast, and grows delirious. This, too, is a person who, subject to death, is afraid and in terror of death. (3) "Furthermore, there is the case of the person who has not done what is good, has not done what is skillful, has not given protection to those in fear, and instead has done what is evil, savage, & cruel. [Puna capara.m, braahma.na, idhekacco akatakalyaa.no hoti akatakusalo akatabhiiruttaa.no katapaapo kataluddo katakibbiso.] Then he comes down with a serious disease. As he comes down with a serious disease, the thought occurs to him, 'I have not done what is good, have not done what is skillful, have not given protection to those in fear, and instead have done what is evil, savage, and cruel. To the extent that there is a destination for those who have not done what is good, have not done what is skillful, have not given protection to those in fear, and instead have done what is evil, savage, and cruel, that's where I'm headed after death.' He grieves and is tormented, weeps, beats his breast, and grows delirious. This, too, is a person who, subject to death, is afraid and in terror of death. (4) "Furthermore, there is the case of the person in doubt & perplexity, who has not arrived at certainty with regard to the True Dhamma. [Puna capara.m, braahma.na, idhekacco ka"nkhii hoti vicikicchii ani.t.tha"ngato saddhamme.] Then he comes down with a serious disease. As he comes down with a serious disease, the thought occurs to him, 'How doubtful and perplexed I am! I have not arrived at any certainty with regard to the True Dhamma!' He grieves and is tormented, weeps, beats his breast, and grows delirious. This, too, is a person who, subject to death, is afraid and in terror of death. Four types of people who are not afraid of death are [Paa.li words are inserted by me taken from the Paa.li Pi.taka Text.]: (1) "There is the case of the person who has abandoned passion, desire, fondness, thirst, fever, and craving for sensuality. [Idha, braahma.na, ekacco kaamesu viitaraago hoti vigatacchando vigatapemo vigatapipaaso vigatapari.laaho vigatata.nho.] Then he comes down with a serious disease. As he comes down with a serious disease, the thought does not occur to him, 'O, those beloved sensual pleasures will be taken from me, and I will be taken from them!' He does not grieve, is not tormented; does not weep, beat his breast, or grow delirious. This is a person who, subject to death, is not afraid or in terror of death. (2) "Furthermore, there is the case of the person who has abandoned passion, desire, fondness, thirst, fever, and craving for the body. [Puna capara.m, braahma.na, idhekacco kaaye viitaraago hoti vigatacchando vigatapemo vigatapipaaso vigatapari.laaho vigatata.nho.] Then he comes down with a serious disease. As he comes down with a serious disease, the thought does not occur to him, 'O, my beloved body will be taken from me, and I will be taken from my body!' He does not grieve, is not tormented; does not weep, beat his breast, or grow delirious. This, too, is a person who, subject to death, is not afraid or in terror of death. (3) "Furthermore, there is the case of the person who has done what is good, has done what is skillful, has given protection to those in fear, and has not done what is evil, savage, or cruel. [Puna capara.m, braahma.na, idhekacco akatapaapo hoti akataluddo akatakibbiso katakalyaa.no katakusalo katabhiiruttaa.no.] Then he comes down with a serious disease. As he comes down with a serious disease, the thought occurs to him, 'I have done what is good, have done what is skillful, have given protection to those in fear, and I have not done what is evil, savage, or cruel. To the extent that there is a destination for those who have done what is good, what is skillful, have given protection to those in fear, and have not done what is evil, savage, or cruel, that's where I'm headed after death.' He does not grieve, is not tormented; does not weep, beat his breast, or grow delirious. This, too, is a person who, subject to death, is not afraid or in terror of death. (4) "Furthermore, there is the case of the person who has no doubt or perplexity, who has arrived at certainty with regard to the True Dhamma. [Puna capara.m, braahma.na, idhekacco aka"nkhii hoti avicikicchii ni.t.tha"ngato saddhamme.] Then he comes down with a serious disease. As he comes down with a serious disease, the thought occurs to him, 'I have no doubt or perplexity. I have arrived at certainty with regard to the True Dhamma.' He does not grieve, is not tormented; does not weep, beat his breast, or grow delirious. This, too, is a person who, subject to death, is not afraid or in terror of death. -------------------- Han: At the moment I am focusing on the first two types of people who are afraid to die. The first type of people are afraid of death, because with regard to sensuality (kaamesu) they: (1) have not abandoned passion (aviitaraago), (2) have not abandoned desire (avigatacchando), (3) have not abandoned fondness (avigatapemo), (4) have not abandoned thirst (avigatapipaaso), (5) have not abandoned fever (avigatapari.laaho), and (6) have not abandoned craving (avigatata.nho) for the sensuality. The second type of people who are afraid of death have not abandoned, in the similar manner, with regard to the body (kaaya). As far as I am concerned, I no longer belong to the second type. My failing body is like a very old motor vehicle, giving trouble all the time. I would not mind if I were to discard it any time. But I still belong to the first type. I am still worried about my children and grandchildren who are still dependent on me. I tell myself that my worrying or lack of it will not have any appreciable effect on them after I have gone. In Myanmar we have a saying [Sattavaa takhu, Kan takhu] which literally means [One being, One kamma]. As Lord Buddha has said in AN 5.57 Upajjhatthana Sutta, they are the owner of their kamma, and heirs to their kamma, and they will all go their own way according to their own kamma. When I think that way, I have at least some consolation. But I do not think I will ever be completely free from this attachment to my loved ones. with metta and respect, Han #122493 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Those who are afraid of death and those who are not nilovg Dear Han, Thank you for your post on death. I pass it on to Lodewijk, he also has trouble all the time, pains in the stomach, while swallowing, pains in the head. But we won't go to the doctor again until both his hands are cured from operations. A human being cannot stand too many doctors at the same time. I appreciate the Pali you gave and also your personal remarks. It is quite natural to be attachned to dear ones. Nina. Op 10-feb-2012, om 11:13 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > As far as I am concerned, I no longer belong to the second type. My > failing body is like a very old motor vehicle, giving trouble all > the time. I would not mind if I were to discard it any time. #122494 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 9-feb-2012, om 20:32 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > D: "...As I understand some members deny the reality of the > mundane /conventional world , claiming the only truth is the > reality of the world of dhammas..looking forward to talk about ...") ------- N: Personally I am disinclined to see two opposite worlds as if they are contradictory. I would rather think of our ordinary, daily life and how we thanks to the Buddha, can have more understanding of our life. Understanding how whatever arises does so because of conditions. Scott's post on his dying cat is a good example of such understanding with regard to daily happenings. He feels sadness because his cat is dying, and this is so natural, because a cat or dog is like a family member. He takes care of it with mettaa and this is kusala citta. He is sad and knows that this is akusala arising because of conditions. We talk about daily events and at the same time we know that there are different types of cittas arising: vipaakacittas such as seeing visible object, and thinking about vipaaka with akusala cittas or kusala cittas. All our actions and speech in daily life are motivated by citta and cetasika, there are naama and ruupa all the time. ------- Nina. #122495 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 nilovg Dear Dieter, A few glosses from the commentary. I also consulted Ven. Bodhi's translation and his excerpts from the commentary. Pali title (for Han): Mahaacattaariisaka sutta. Op 9-feb-2012, om 15:14 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > "And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: > There is right view with effluents [asava], siding with merit, > resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble > right view, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path. ------ Co: noble is supramundane. Two kinds of right view are forerunners, pubbangamaa: right view of insight investigating conditioned dhammas as impermanent, dukkha, anattaa, and right view of the path arising as a consequence of insight and effects the eradication of defilements. -------- > > "And what is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & > results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, > what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad > actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & > father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & > contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim > this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for > themselves.' This is the right view that has effluents, sides with > merit, & results in acquisitions. -------- This does not lead to the end of the cycle, but to happy rebirth. As Sarah explained, anusayas have not been eradicated. commentary: right view of insight (vipassanaa sammaa-di.t.thi) understands wrong view as an object by penetrating its characteristics of impermanence, etc. It is also called the precursor of right view that is supramundane, lokuttara. The Co. distinguishes five kinds of sammaa-di.t.thi: vipassanaa sammaa-di.t.thi, kammasakataa sammaa-di.t.thi (understanding kamma and vipaaka), magga sammaa-di.t.thi, phala sammaa-di.t.thi, paccavekkhana sammaa-di.t.thi (reviewing knowledge after the lokuttara cittas have fallen away). ------- N: When one reads about kamma and result, such as, there is mother and father, spontaneously reborn beings, etc. one may wonder why there are these notions of conventional truth. They are just pointing out kamma and vipaaka, cause and result. They occur in our ordinary daily life and one may have wrong understanding or right understanding about them. Kammasakataa ~naa.na is occuring from the first stage of tender insight on. It pertains to insight. ------- Nina. #122496 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:14 am Subject: Re: On understanding & action scottduncan2 Sarah, S: "Well, does anyone ever know what a mental factor is? Isn't it panna that occasionally arises which may or may not know what a mental factor is?..." Scott: For me the consideration is the view (not the person expressing it). And in particular I am still considering pariyatti. If I am making sense of that term, thinking about 'a mental factor' with pa~n~naa will be 'knowing what a mental factor is' at that level of pa~n~naa. And so, yes, I would say that an expression of the Dhamma in relation to mental factors can be made either correctly or incorrectly, and this can be examined when that expression is considered. 'The Law of Dependent Origination' can be misunderstood and the nature of it's constituents can be missed. Yes, it is possible to know what a mental factor is, and, stated conventionally, it can be said that someone can know this. Since it is possible to 'get it right,' it is possible to 'get it wrong.' Scott. #122497 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:26 am Subject: Re: A Cat Is Dying. scottduncan2 Lukas, L: "-I think this is not about the dog or cat, this is about us..." Scott: Very true. Scott. #122498 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:28 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. scottduncan2 Rob K., R: "The thing is the Abhidhamma and suttas have many things which we cannot directly experience, yet I would suggest they are useful to know....Again I think it is a part of intellectual understanding." Scott: Agreed. This mirrors a point I was making regarding pariyatti. Scott. #122499 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 moellerdieter Dear Nina, (Scott), you wrote: (D: "...As I understand some members deny the reality of the > mundane /conventional world , claiming the only truth is the > reality of the world of dhammas..looking forward to talk about ...") ------- N: Personally I am disinclined to see two opposite worlds as if they are contradictory. D: not necessarily contradictory , the (world) view like that of the Wordling and that of the Noble One. What I am objecting is the exclusion of the conventional world as reality ( although it is our daily life existence) , by stating the only and ultimate truth is that of conditioned dhammas which due to its insubstantiality/egolessness (anatta) does not need/allow interfering action. However only action leads to non action (cessation of kamma) , from the many examples following 2 excerpts in order to show the need of action/practise: As it is said: "This world, Kaccana, usually leans upon a duality: upon (the belief in) existence or non-existence.. Avoiding these two extremes, the Perfect One shows the doctrine in the middle: Dependent on ignorance are the kamma-formations.. By the cessation of ignorance, kamma-formations cease.. "(SN 12:15) The Sattatthana Sutta (S.N. 22.57 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.057.than.html ) tells us about khanda investigation and practise ... the cessation of form. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation .. the cessation of feeling. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of feeling... ...the cessation of perception. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of perception.... .. the cessation of fabrications. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of fabrications... ...the cessation of consciousness. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice big emphases on action , i.e. path practise N: I would rather think of our ordinary, daily life and how we thanks to the Buddha, can have more understanding of our life. Understanding how whatever arises does so because of conditions. Scott's post on his dying cat is a good example of such understanding with regard to daily happenings. He feels sadness because his cat is dying, and this is so natural, because a cat or dog is like a family member. He takes care of it with mettaa and this is kusala citta. He is sad and knows that this is akusala arising because of conditions. D: I think we agree: sadness belongs to the cetasika dosa ,adversion (unwholesome cetasika ) of the situation that one's much loved pet is dying . What to do with sadness ? As I see it , rejecting /surpression is not the right way ..a possible mean to encounter the unwholesome state is to recall the many occasions of pleasant company , be gratefule of that and accepting the inevitable of anicca. Wouldn't we ourselves not appreciate such remembrance instead of sadness/grieving when we are gone? N: We talk about daily events and at the same time we know that there are different types of cittas arising: vipaakacittas such as seeing visible object, and thinking about vipaaka with akusala cittas or kusala cittas. All our actions and speech in daily life are motivated by citta and cetasika, there are naama and ruupa all the time' D: Will, the force of action (cetana/ sankhara) , conditioned by ignorance , known by consciousness of name and form . Name or nama giving this consciousness the quality/moral of a certain state (cetasika).. there are many ways to say it , aren't they? with Metta Dieter #122500 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:25 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Rob E, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > S: Samsara concerns the realities arising in a split second, making up a moment of samsara, as conditioned directly or indirectly by delusion. > > > > Does this imply that the rupas that exist independent of citta are not part of samsara? I guess there are aspects of the universe of arising rupas that is just a natural occurrence and has nothing to do with us? And that is not part of samsara? > ... > S: Yes, if the rupas arise and fall away "out in the forest" and are not experienced, then they are of "no concern" - they are not conditioned by avijja or kamma, they are not the object of lobha. The Path is the direct knowing of what 'appears', what is directly experienced - that which leads to the end of samsara. > > Like the scientist, we could spend our lives speculating about elements that are not experienced, but it would take us no closer to the truth. Regardless, when there is direct understanding of namas and rupas appearing now, it's clear that there are only namas and rupas arising and falling away, regardless of any experience. That's very good. Thank you for this clarification of what is experienced, and what is not. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - #122501 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:08 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Rob E, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > >R:If "Murdering a parent" has an especially strong akusala cetana that conditions [the rupas of?] a particularly horrible vipaka that are experienced in a future life, the "thought of the parent" being "murdered" must play a role, otherwise the horrible cetana would not have an object that it builds around. > ... > S: Yes, the akusala cetana is stronger/more virulent when there is the idea that it is a parent being murdered. We read in the texts about how the intention is stronger when it is a larger animal than a smaller one and how more force/work is required. Stronger still is the intention to kill a human and particularly so when it is a parent. Of course, the strongest or worst of all is the intention to harm or kill an arahat and particularly a Buddha, on account of their purity and noble qualities. Good information, thank you. Though it's not the concept that causes anything, it seems that the akusala thinking as part of akusala cittas can condition these negative volitions and actions [rupas] which then create further kamma. ... > S: The original akusala kamma patha involved in the murderous intentions and acts will bring its result by way or vipaka - an unhappy rebirth and akusala vipaka in future life/lives. I agree that when reading the texts, there often seems to be a 'link'. In the future lives, there may be the akusala vipaka through the body-sense and so on when attacked/murdered which seems to correspond to the original deed. In fact, the death consciousness, the cuti citta, can only be a result of the person's own deed - the same akusala kamma patha that conditioned the unhappy rebirth in that future life. > .... I guess it makes sense that a certain kind of of akusala kamma patha would naturally lead to a related-seeming vipaka that is "like in kind" as the type of akusala cetana that was originally generated. It's sort of like putting out certain sorts of forces and then they will shape the resultant vipaka in a similar way. > >R: So I guess that experience of being murdered would be some series of cittas experiencing a number of unpleasant rupas that represent their death-experience? Would that be in the right ball park? > ... > S: Yes, there would be most likely be cittas experiencing unpleasant rupas through the body-sense, conditioned by past kamma. And I assume that as long as one is busy conceptualizing, these unpleasant rupas will be translated into all kinds of ideas and stories about what is happening - such as fights with family or sickness, etc., or poverty conditions... One won't recognize them as vipaka that is coming from an original cause, but it will appear to be unpleasant circumstances instead. Interesting just conceptually as a thought-experiment to look at current difficulties in that way and imagine that they are rupas that are caused by past kamma instead of "circumstances." > The death itself, as mentioned, is also caused by previous kamma. Just before that death, kamma determines the next moment of birth, immediately following the death consciousness. Interesting. > We have to come closer and closer to understanding the paramattha dhammas for the "full picture" to make sense. It's not easy - I appreciate your good questions. Thank you, Sarah. This kind of discussion about how things take place in reality is really engaging to me. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - #122502 From: "Kevin" Date: Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 farrellkevin80 Hi Nina, > N: Sorry, I do not quite understand your question. > You mean the difference between supramundane and mundane > understanding? I would think the object is different: the first, as > you know, has nibbaana as object, the second conditioned dhammas. > ----- > Nina. Kevin: Yes, certainly Nina. But either way, it is just anatta realities-- nothing to get enamored about. Kevin #122503 From: han tun Date: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Those who are afraid of death and those who are not hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind comments. I am sorry to know about Lodewijk's troubles. We are in the same boat and I know how he would feel. I send my best wishes to him. During my younger days, when I made obeisance to my Elders, they wished me to have a long life without pain and suffering. The important point here is "without pain and suffering." If I live long with pain and suffering, it is not an enviable proposition. Recently, a friend asked me how I was doing. I told him that I was trying to get worse slowly. He laughed thinking that I was joking. with metta and respect, Han --- On Fri, 2/10/12, Nina van Gorkom wrote: From: Nina van Gorkom Subject: Re: [dsg] Those who are afraid of death and those who are not To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 10, 2012, 8:49 PM  Dear Han, Thank you for your post on death. I pass it on to Lodewijk, he also has trouble all the time, pains in the stomach, while swallowing, pains in the head. But we won't go to the doctor again until both his hands are cured from operations. A human being cannot stand too many doctors at the same time. I appreciate the Pali you gave and also your personal remarks. It is quite natural to be attachned to dear ones. Nina. Op 10-feb-2012, om 11:13 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > As far as I am concerned, I no longer belong to the second type. My > failing body is like a very old motor vehicle, giving trouble all > the time. I would not mind if I were to discard it any time. #122504 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 scottduncan2 Dieter, D: "...What I am objecting is the exclusion of the conventional world as reality ( although it is our daily life existence) , by stating the only and ultimate truth is that of conditioned dhammas which due to its insubstantiality/egolessness (anatta) does not need/allow interfering action. However only action leads to non action (cessation of kamma) , from the many examples following 2 excerpts in order to show the need of action/practise..." Scott: Here I think you are totally in error. By 'action' it is very clear that you mean to suggest that you can 'act' ('practise') in order make 'non action' occur. You suggest that 'anatta' allows for the action of atta. This is entirely inconsistent. You seem to believe that atta has a reality and an effect, such that 'anatta' must be understood to be only partially meaningful. I think that you misunderstand 'action' by thinking that it implies that you can actually think to 'act' and alter a course of events that has absolutely nothing to do with you. In this I see you to be totally an adherent of the standard and incorrect 'buddhist' notion of 'practise.' And when I say 'you' I mean to refer to the view that expresses you, lest you are tempted to get all up in arms about being disagreed with. What do you say to these statements? Scott. Scott. #122505 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:03 am Subject: Radical Relinquishment! bhikkhu5 Friends: Only Relinquishment Wins Freedom! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, I will teach you the state of relinquishment... Pay attention & listen... And what, bhikkhus, is the state of overcoming all by leaving behind all??? The eye, form, visual-consciousness, eye-contact, feeling arised from seeing, pleasant, painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, is to be relinquished & left. The ear, sound, hearing-consciousness, ear-contact, feeling arised from hearing, whether painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, are all to be relinquished & left. The nose, smell, smelling-consciousness, nose-contact, feeling arised from smelling, pleasant, painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, all that also should be let go of. The tongue, any flavour, tasting-consciousness, tongue-contact, feeling arised from tongue-contact, pleasant, painful or neutral, that too is to be left behind. The body, touch, tactile-consciousness, body-contact, any feeling arised from body-contact, whether pleasant, painful or neutral, should also be relinquished. The mind, any mental state & phenomenon, mental-consciousness, mental-contact, and whatever feeling arised with mental-contact as origin, whether pleasant, painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, that indeed also is to be relinquished & left behind... This, bhikkhus, is the radically released state of overcoming by leaving behind all... Back-pack-burden of heavy dependencies all exploded! Comments: Logically can only relinquishment of all burdens & dependencies gain true freedom! Only true freedom means absence of fear from any event and from any corner... Only freedom from fear and anxiety can ever open up for ease, peace and bliss! <...> Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikâya. Book IV 15-6 The Salayatana section 35. Thread on Leaving: Pahana Sutta (23) http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Only Relinquishment can ever give Freedom! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net #122506 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:11 pm Subject: Re: "he should leave it by night or by day." sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > S: "One" can? > > .... > >A: Conventionally speaking. Again, the Buddha often said that he/she should do this and that. Are you going to criticize the Buddha for teaching Atta? ... S: So can we agree that whatever words are used in the Teachings, there are only the arising and falling away of conditioned dhammas now - no Atta, no Person, no Sarah, no Alex, no Buddha? ... > > 160. One truly is the protector of oneself; who else could the protector be? With oneself fully controlled, one gains a mastery that is hard to gain. > > 161. The evil a witless man does by himself, born of himself and produced by himself, grinds him as a diamond grinds a hard gem. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.12.budd.html .... S: As you suggest - "Conventionally speaking" only. In fact, only cittas and cetasikas that can 'protect', which can perform any functions, including evil ones. When there is right understanding of dhammas as "the All", there is no confusion, no doubt about the meaning. ... > > > >A: One can also slip and fall when one gets out of bed. Does this >mean that one should never leave one's bed? No. One should just be >careful, not careless. Same is here. > > .... > >S: This has nothing to do with an understanding of conditioned dhammas as taught by the Buddha. > >========= >A: Please explain. ... S: Conventionally speaking, there is a person who slips, who gets out of bed, who is careful or careless. In fact, there are again just conditioned dhammas, arising, performing their functions. For example, manasikara is a universal mental factor which arises with every citta and "attends" to the object. In the time it takes to "slip", there are countless processes of cittas. Most of these are akusala and hence most of the manasikara arising is akusala. The same is true when one gets out of bed carefully and doesn't slip - countless cittas, countless moments of manasikara arising with those cittas, almost all akusala. In order to understand dhammas as taught by the Buddha, there has to be the beginning of understanding dhammas which appear now, not the thinking of various scenarios which, conventionally speaking, seem to be about careful or careless deeds. Metta Sarah ==== #122507 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jatakas with Ven. Dhammadharo. nilovg Dear Lukas, Your remark makes me think of a Jataka. You would like to hear more about our reminiscences of the late Ven. Dhammadharo. Long ago he went on a trip in India Kh Sujin, other friends and I also joined. We talked in the train with Ven. Dhammadharo about Jatakas which are so good as reminders for application of the Dhamma in daily life. See below. Op 10-feb-2012, om 7:28 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Now i am attached to see and to talk with Luraya more, but she is > not there. Those are only moments of seeing and touching, moments > of vipaka that are conditioned, we cant have more if we want to. ----- N: He read about siila that was highly praised. Then we discussed: Jataka 330, Siilavima.msa Jataka, it is about longing and the giving up of longing (asa and nirasa). In this translation the relinquishment of hope is translated as despair which is not correct. Pi.ngala waited the whole night for her lover and she could not sleep: < ...she sat on the threshold looking out for the coming of her lover, and passed the first and the middle watch, repeating to herself, 'Now he will be coming,' but at daybreak, losing hope, she said, 'He will not come now', and lay down and fell asleep. The Bodhisatta seeing this happening said, 'This woman sat ever so long in the hope that her lover would come, but now that she knows he will not come, in her despair, she slumbers peacefully.' > Longing, hoping makes restless, causes suffering, and letting go of it brings peace. This shows the disadvantage of clinging to sense pleasures. In the same Jataka is another story we discussed with Ven. dhammadharo. A hawk siezed a piece of meat and went up into the air. The other birds wanted that piece and struck him with claws and beaks. He could not bear the pain and dropped the piece of meat. Another bird siezed it and had to drop it in like manner and so another bird. Whoso let it go was left in peace. The Bodhisatta said: " These desires of ours are like pieces of meat. To those that grasp at them is sorrow, and to those that let them go is peace." It is natural to have desire for sense pleasures, but it is good to realize that the Dhamma is most precious. Nothing is of more value then right understanding. ------- Nina. #122508 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 nilovg Dear Kevin, Op 11-feb-2012, om 2:41 heeft Kevin het volgende geschreven: > But either way, it is just anatta realities-- nothing to get > enamored about. ------ N: Right, also nibbaana is anattaa. ----- Nina. #122509 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On understanding & action nilovg Dear Scott, I just found something about pariyatti in the commentary. It may not have anything to do with your discussion but it may be of interest. Op 10-feb-2012, om 14:14 heeft scottduncan2 het volgende geschreven: > And in particular I am still considering pariyatti. ---- N: Kh Sujin referred to three kinds of pariyatti, in a commentary. I found them in PED, mentioning DA 1.21, but could not trace the location with my Pali digital reader. Perhaps Han can help? There are three kinds: 1. alagadduupamaa: like a serpent. I think this is the wrong grasp of it. 2. nissara.natthaa: for the sake of liberation. 3. bha.n.daarika: of a treasurer. no 3 is of the arahat. He does not need to study pariyatti anymore but he is concerned about those who come after. Thus, for the sake of pupils. As to 2: very important for us, to learn about the right way of development. ------ Nina. #122510 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On understanding & action sarahprocter... Dear Nina (Scott, Han & all), --- On Sat, 11/2/12, Nina van Gorkom wrote: N: Kh Sujin referred to three kinds of pariyatti, in a commentary. I found them in PED, mentioning DA 1.21, but could not trace the location with my Pali digital reader. Perhaps Han can help? There are three kinds: 1. alagadduupamaa: like a serpent. I think this is the wrong grasp of it. 2. nissara.natthaa: for the sake of liberation. 3. bha.n.daarika: of a treasurer. .... S: We find the same terms and detail in the The Discourse on the Snake Simile, the Alagaddupama Sutta (MN 22) and commentary. The following is from the Wheel publication, transl by Nyanaponika. I summarised and partly quoted the detail on them in a post before. Here is a fuller quote - full of helpful reminders: *** From the Sutta itself: "Suppose, monks, a man wants a snake, looks for a snake, goes in search of a snake. He then sees a large snake, and when he is grasping its body or its tail, the snake turns back on him and bites his hand or arm or some other limb of his. And because of that he suffers death or deadly pain. And why? Because of his wrong grasp of the snake. "Similarly, O monks, there are here some foolish men who study the Teaching; having studied it, they do not wisely examine the purpose of those teachings. To those who do not wisely examine the purpose, these teachings will not yield insight. They study the Teaching only to use it for criticizing or for refuting others in disputation. They do not experience the (true) purpose for which they (ought to) study the Teaching. To them these teachings wrongly grasped, will bring harm and suffering for a long time. And why? Because of their wrong grasp of the teachings. "But there are here, O monks, some noble sons who study the Teaching; and having studied it, they examine wisely the purpose of those teachings. To those who wisely examine the purpose, these teachings will yield insight. They do not study the Teaching for the sake of criticizing nor for refuting others in disputation. They experience the purpose for which they study the Teaching; and to them these teachings being rightly grasped, will bring welfare and happiness for a long time. And why? Because of their right grasp of the teachings. *** Comy Note: "They, the noble sons, study the Teaching for the sake of crossing (the ocean of sa.msaric suffering). There are to wit, three manners of studying the Teaching: studying it in the manner of the Snake-simile (alagadda-pariyatti); studying it for the sake of crossing over (ni.t.tharana-pariyatti); and studying in a treasurer's (or store-keeper's) position (bhandaa-gaarika-pariyatti). "(1) He who studies the Buddha's word for getting robes and other requisites, or for becoming widely known; that is, he who learns for the sake of fame and gain, his study is that of the Snake-simile (i.e., the wrong grasp); but better than such a study would be for him to sleep and not to study at all. "(2) But there is one who studies the Buddha's word, and when morality is the subject, he fulfills morality; when concentration is the subject, he lets it take deep root; when insight is the subject, he establishes himself well in insight; when the paths and fruitions are the subject, he studies with the intention, "I shall develop the path, I shall realize the fruition." Only the studying of such a one is "studying for the sake of crossing over". "(3) But the studying by one who (as an arahant, a saint) has extinguished the taints (khii.naasavo), is "studying in the Treasurer's position." For him, indeed, there remains nothing unpenetrated, nothing unrelinquished, nothing undeveloped, and nothing unrealized. [This refers to the 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 3rd Truths, respectively.] He is one who has penetrated the aggregates of existence (khandha), who has relinquished the defilements, developed the path and realized the fruition. Hence, in studying the Buddha's Word, he studies it as a keeper of the scriptures, as a guardian of the tradition, as a preserver of the continuity. Thus his study is like (the activity of) a treasurer (or store keeper). "Now, when those proficient in the books cannot live at one place, being afraid of starvation, etc., if (in such a situation) there is one who, while himself going the alms round with very great fatigue, as an unliberated worlding takes up studies with the thought: 'Lest the exceedingly sweet Buddha-word may perish, I shall keep the scriptures (in mind), shall preserve the continuity and guard the tradition,' in that case, is his study of the Treasurer's type or is it not? — It is not. And why not? Because his study is not applied to his own situation (na attano .thaane .thatvaa pariyaapunattaa; Sub-Comy: that of (having to) cross over. An unliberated worldling's study [be he a monk or a lay follower] will either be of the type of the Snake-simile, or for the sake of crossing over; while for the seven (noble persons; ariya-puggala) who have entered the higher training (sekha), the study is only for the sake of crossing over; for the saint (arahat) it is only of the Treasurer's type." ***** Metta Sarah ===== #122511 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On understanding & action nilovg Dear Sarah, Thank you very much, wonderful. I enjoyed this very much. I do not have this Wheel publication. Nina. Op 11-feb-2012, om 12:04 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > > "Similarly, O monks, there are here some foolish men who study the > Teaching; having studied it, they do not wisely examine the purpose > of those teachings. To those who do not wisely examine the purpose, > these teachings will not yield insight. They study the Teaching > only to use it for criticizing or for refuting others in disputation. > "(2) But there is one who studies the Buddha's word, and when > morality is the subject, he fulfills morality; when concentration > is the subject, he lets it take deep root; when insight is the > subject, he establishes himself well in insight; when the paths and > fruitions are the subject, he studies with the intention, "I shall > develop the path, I shall realize the fruition." Only the studying > of such a one is "studying for the sake of crossing over". > #122512 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 moellerdieter Hi Scott, you wrote: (D: "...What I am objecting is the exclusion of the conventional world as reality ( although it is our daily life existence) , by stating the only and ultimate truth is that of conditioned dhammas which due to its insubstantiality/egolessness (anatta) does not need/allow interfering action. However only action leads to non action (cessation of kamma) , from the many examples following 2 excerpts in order to show the need of action/practise..." Scott: Here I think you are totally in error. By 'action' it is very clear that you mean to suggest that you can 'act' ('practise') in order make 'non action' occur. You suggest that 'anatta' allows for the action of atta. This is entirely inconsistent. You seem to believe that atta has a reality and an effect, such that 'anatta' must be understood to be only partially meaningful. I think that you misunderstand 'action' by thinking that it implies that you can actually think to 'act' and alter a course of events that has absolutely nothing to do with you. In this I see you to be totally an adherent of the standard and incorrect 'buddhist' notion of 'practise.' And when I say 'you' I mean to refer to the view that expresses you, lest you are tempted to get all up in arms about being disagreed with. What do you say to these statements? D: I 'll tell you what came into my mind.. hmm..both passages above start with a negative comment... I am getting a picture of Scott , seeing his castle 'Ditthi' attacked, ready for the battle of words. Now , when I -"totally an adherent of the standard and incorrect 'buddhist' notion of 'practise" come and repeat what the Buddha stated (is samma ditthi) , Scott doesn't pay attention to this reference because first priority is to make his view clear ,the walls of 'Ditthi' strong. So what to say ?... the common base of students of Theravada Buddhism is the Pali Canon , so when you want to make your point you need the backing of the Teacher, the Tipitaka . Quote when you can find canonical support in order to prove "the incorrect notion of practise" , I 'll listen who knows what new one may learn. However I am not interested in 'Ditthi' and if you are not inclined to show what you mean 'by the book' , there is no base for a benefitial discussion . My view ..'no bad feelings' ;-) with Metta Dieter #122513 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On understanding & action moellerdieter Dear Nina and Sarah , a wonderful quotation indeed , which refers to the path training sila, samadhi, panna "But there is one who studies the Buddha's word, and when > morality is the subject, he fulfills morality; when concentration > is the subject, he lets it take deep root; when insight is the > subject, he establishes himself well in insight;" reference to the supramundane path :' when the paths and > fruitions are the subject, he studies with the intention,..." Is there any doubt that this training doesn't mean action ? Studying and and fulfilling... (= practise) with Metta Dieter ----- Original Message ----- From: Nina van Gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2012 4:06 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On understanding & action Dear Sarah, Thank you very much, wonderful. I enjoyed this very much. I do not have this Wheel publication. Nina. Op 11-feb-2012, om 12:04 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > > "Similarly, O monks, there are here some foolish men who study the > Teaching; having studied it, they do not wisely examine the purpose > of those teachings. To those who do not wisely examine the purpose, > these teachings will not yield insight. They study the Teaching > only to use it for criticizing or for refuting others in disputation. > "(2) But there is one who studies the Buddha's word, and when > morality is the subject, he fulfills morality; when concentration > is the subject, he lets it take deep root; when insight is the > subject, he establishes himself well in insight; when the paths and > fruitions are the subject, he studies with the intention, "I shall > develop the path, I shall realize the fruition." Only the studying > of such a one is "studying for the sake of crossing over". > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] #122514 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 moellerdieter Dear Nina, you wrote: , A few glosses from the commentary. I also consulted Ven. Bodhi's translation and his excerpts from the commentary. Pali title (for Han): Mahaacattaariisaka sutta. Op 9-feb-2012, om 15:14 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > "And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: > There is right view with effluents [asava], siding with merit, > resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble > right view, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path. ------ Co: noble is supramundane. Two kinds of right view are forerunners, pubbangamaa: right view of insight investigating conditioned dhammas as impermanent, dukkha, anattaa, and right view of the path arising as a consequence of insight and effects the eradication of defilements. -------- D: yes, that of the Noble Ones (no effluents anymore) : due to right view of the 3 charactistics as a result of investigation /penetration the first link will the forerunner and by that the Supramundana /Holy Noble Path becomes accessible .. > > "And what is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & > results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, > what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad > actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & > father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & > contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim > this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for > themselves.' This is the right view that has effluents, sides with > merit, & results in acquisitions. -------- N : This does not lead to the end of the cycle, but to happy rebirth. As Sarah explained, anusayas have not been eradicated. commentary: right view of insight (vipassanaa sammaa-di.t.thi) understands wrong view as an object by penetrating its characteristics of impermanence, etc. It is also called the precursor of right view that is supramundane, lokuttara. D: yes, it is the mundane Noble Path , that of the Worldling ..the start is the training sila samadhi , panna N:The Co. distinguishes five kinds of sammaa-di.t.thi: vipassanaa sammaa-di.t.thi, kammasakataa sammaa-di.t.thi (understanding kamma and vipaaka), D: I assume concerning the sila and the samadhi sequence N: magga sammaa-di.t.thi, phala sammaa-di.t.thi, paccavekkhana sammaa-di.t.thi (reviewing knowledge after the lokuttara cittas have fallen away). D: the panna part ------- N: When one reads about kamma and result, such as, there is mother and father, spontaneously reborn beings, etc. one may wonder why there are these notions of conventional truth. They are just pointing out kamma and vipaaka, cause and result. They occur in our ordinary daily life and one may have wrong understanding or right understanding about them. Kammasakataa ~naa.na is occuring from the first stage of tender insight on. It pertains to insight. D: leaving the 'spontaneously reborn beings' aside' , I understand that refers to start of understanding of kamma patha , i.e. training in sila ( to abstain ) which is the base for the samadhi part . The mundane path includes kamma patha (the links 2,3 4 (+5) are its practise). with Metta Dieter #122515 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:55 am Subject: [dsg] Re: On understanding & action scottduncan2 Nina and Sarah, N: "Thank you very much, wonderful..." Scott: Good stuff. Scott. #122516 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:53 am Subject: Neither Attracted, nor Repelled! bhikkhu5 Friends: Control makes one Behave like a true Master! Buddha once asked: How, Bhikkhus and friends, is there full mental control? When seeing a form then one becomes neither attracted by any pleasing form, nor repelled by any displeasing form! When having heard a sound with the ear, one becomes neither entranced by any charming sound, nor opposed by any horrid sound! When having sniffed a smell with the nose, one becomes neither fascinated by any lovely smell, nor held off by any detestable smell! Having tasted a flavour with the tongue, one becomes neither captivated by any likeable taste, nor rejected by unlikable taste! When having felt a touch with the body, one becomes neither allured by any pleasant touch, nor repelled by any unpleasant touch! When having experienced whatever mental state with the mind, one becomes neither obsessed by any agreeable mental phenomenon, nor rebuffed by any disagreeable mental phenomenon whatsoever... Thus does one live on, while having established Awareness of the Body, yet also abiding within an unlimited & infinite mind. Thus does a focused one come to understand, through direct experience, that release of mind, a mental release through understanding, wherein all those evil & disadvantageous mental states irreversibly cease without any remaining trace! It is in exactly this way, that there is full mental control! Comments: The infinite mind, counteracting hate & anger, is a mind made limitless by the praxis of the 4 sublime & divine dwellings (brahma-vihÄra), also called the 4 infinite states (appamaññÄ), which are: Infinite Friendliness (MettÄ), Endless Pity (KarunÄ), Mutual Sympathy & Joy (MuditÄ), and Imperturbable Equanimity (UpekkhÄ ). For Awareness of the Body , which counteracts greed, lust & desire; see: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Awareness_Sati.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Meditation_On_the_Body_Kayagata-Sati.htm Having counteracted both greed & lust, which pulls in the mind attracting it to objects, and having counteracted both hate & anger, which push the mind repulsing it from objects, mind may stay stilled and ballanced in the middle, untouched, ballanced and in complete control... Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta NikÄya. Book IV [189-] 35: 6 Senses. Salayatana. States that entail Suffering. Dukkha-DhammÄ 244. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Mind Control is Neither Attracted, nor Repelled! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu SamÄhita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net #122517 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 scottduncan2 Dieter, D: "I 'll tell you what came into my mind.. hmm..both passages above start with a negative comment...I am getting a picture of Scott , seeing his castle 'Ditthi' attacked, ready for the battle of words. Now , when I -"totally an adherent of the standard and incorrect 'buddhist' notion of 'practise" come and repeat what the Buddha stated (is samma ditthi) , Scott doesn't pay attention to this reference because first priority is to make his view clear ,the walls of 'Ditthi' strong..." Scott: I think you will find that the view you express is considered to be incorrect on this list (and we are correct in our take on things). You may not care for the manner in which I disagree with you but disagree I do, and you will find that others disagree as well. You may alternate with less petulance for your favourites and more for me but this is not the issue. Suttas are *interpreted* according to the view that reads them. Yours is standard: one must 'practise' in order to get anywhere. This notion of 'practise' flies in the face of any reading of anatta that holds any water. Ask anyone directly if 'practise' is anything. You will see. Disagreeing with you may have become politically incorrect but the view is still wrong no matter which way you look at it. I don't have an issue with you, I take issue with your view. Scott. #122518 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 nilovg Dear Dieter, I just take one point from your post, the much discussed sequence siila, samaadhi and pa~n~naa. When just reading about this, it seems simple, but in fact we have to take into account many aspects and degrees. There is more to it. Op 11-feb-2012, om 19:12 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > D: yes, it is the mundane Noble Path , that of the Worldling ..the > start is the training sila samadhi , panna ------ N: Just a quote of what I wrote before: We discussed in India whether there is a certain order of development of síla, samådhi and paññå. It seems that the texts of the suttas point into this direction. We read in the Mahåparinibbånasutta (Dialogues of the Buddha, no.16) that the Buddha repeatedly said: “Such and such is síla, such and such is concentration, such and such is wisdom. Great becomes the fruit, great is the gain of concentration when it is fully developed by síla. Great becomes the fruit, great is the gain of wisdom when it is fully developed by concentration. Utterly freed from the intoxicants (åsavas) of Lust, of becoming and of ignorance is the mind that is fully developed in wisdom.” When one reads this text it seems that there has to be síla first, then concentration and then paññå. We discussed this with Acharn Sujin who said: “Can síla and samådhi be fully developed without paññå?” The sotåpanna has fully developed síla, he cannot transgress the five precepts nor commit akusala kamma leading to an unhappy rebirth. The anågåmi has fully developed calm, he has eradicated all clinging to sense pleasures. Síla and samådhi become fully developed by paññå. We read in the Commentary to the Mahåparinibbånasutta: “Such and such is síla (virtue), meaning, it is indeed síla, síla to that extent; here it is síla which are the four purities of síla. Samådhi is concentration. Wisdom should be understood as insight wisdom (vipassanå). As to the words, when it is fully developed by síla, this means, when he has abided in that síla etc., these produce concentration accompanying the path-consciousness and fruition-consciousness; when this is fully developed by that síla it is of great fruit and of great benefit. When he has abided in this concentration, they produce wisdom accompanying the path-consciousness and fruition-consciousness, and this, when it is fully developed by this concentration, is of great fruit, of great benefit. When he has abided in this wisdom, they produce the path- consciousness and fruition-consciousness, and thus when it is fully developed by this (wisdom) he is completely freed from the intoxicants.” Thus, when we read about full development this pertains to lokuttara cittas arising at the different stages of enlightenment. ------ Nina. #122519 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:46 am Subject: Re: "he should leave it by night or by day." truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, >S: So can we agree that whatever words are used in the Teachings, >there are only the arising and falling away of conditioned dhammas >now - no Atta, no Person, no Sarah, no Alex, no Buddha? >========================================================== Buddha has NEVER stated "the is no Self" or "I am not". Moreover it is wrong attention as is said in MN#2. So no wonder that awakening is so far away when people keep indulging in metaphysical views (there is self, there is no self). People keep repeating "NO SELF! NO SELF!". They also admit that Awakening is far away (no wonder when one has wrong views and insists on them). The Buddha has never ever stated "natthi atta" and refused to answer when it was asked because it would be metaphysical speculations. Anatta teachings is practical tool about practical matters available here and now. And neither did the Buddha keep teaching with as much emphasis the philosophical dichotomy of "conventional truth" vs "ultimate truth". This philosophical dichotomy is great way to deny parts of the teaching that kilesas wants to deny. With best wishes, Alex #122520 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 moellerdieter Dear Nina, you wrote: N: Just a quote of what I wrote before: We discussed in India whether there is a certain order of development of síla, samådhi and paññå. It seems that the texts of the suttas point into this direction. We read in the Mahåparinibbånasutta (Dialogues of the Buddha, no.16) that the Buddha repeatedly said: "Such and such is síla, such and such is concentration, such and such is wisdom. Great becomes the fruit, great is the gain of concentration when it is fully developed by síla. Great becomes the fruit, great is the gain of wisdom when it is fully developed by concentration. Utterly freed from the intoxicants (åsavas) of Lust, of becoming and of ignorance is the mind that is fully developed in wisdom." When one reads this text it seems that there has to be síla first,then concentration and then paññå. D: no doubt about it , the Buddha stated always the training in this order ..Anguttara Nikaya has plenty of sources , likely the other Nikayas too. N:We discussed this with Acharn Sujin who said: "Can síla and samådhi be fully developed without paññå?" D: Years ago I nerved Dhamma friends with the claim that the Buddha never proclaimed the 8fold Noble Path in a way that moral must come first before understanding ( who would submit oneself to a moral, one doesn't understand ?) . At that time I had read a book by A.Spiro (?), who claimed it was Buddhagosa who introduced the approach of the path in the middle (sila :3,4,5) before going on with samadhi 6,7,8 as the support for panna 1,2 ) , adding evidence to what I supposed a commentarial misinterpretation. Well I was wrong not seeing that one thing is the path of the Noble Ones , the supramundane holy one , in which samma ditthi is the forerunner of all the links 1-8, now accessible. And the other is the training aiming to enter the former. Furthermore the Buddha provided first an understanding of sila before speaking of the 4 Noble Truths.. this text from A.N. V (?) is - I suppose - standard when those not familar with the teaching were addressed: "Then The Blessed One gave a graduated sermon to the general Siha such as talking on giving gifts, virtues, heavenly bliss, the dangers of sensuality, the defiling nature of folly and vanity and the benefits of giving up. When The Blessed One knew that the mind of the general Siha was ready, tender, free from obstructions, exalted and pleased, he gave the special message of the enlightened ones such as unpleasantness, the arisisng of unpleasantness, the cessation of unpleasantness and the path leading to the cessation of unpleasantness" Another reason is that in order to work with the mind , in particular for the purpose of contemplation (examination/investigation) , basic discipline of actions is a must for wholesome kamma, otherwise one lets the 'monkey jump for the branches of sensual pleasure '...and right effort as the first of the samadhi sequence is neglected. Wrong is as well that the training sequence- 3456712- is only found in the commentaries. The nun Dhammadinna specified : ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.044.than.html ) : And are the three aggregates [of virtue, concentration, & discernment] included under the noble eightfold path, lady, or is the noble eightfold path included under the three aggregates?''The three aggregates are not included under the noble eightfold path, friend Visakha, but the noble eightfold path is included under the three aggregates. Right speech, right action, & right livelihood come under the aggregate of virtue. Right effort, right mindfulness, & right concentration come under the aggregate of concentration. Right view & right resolve come under the aggregate of discernment." which was confirmed by the Buddha. Acharn Sujin refered to 'fully developed ' : I agree , sila and samadhi will certainly not perfected without Panna . Having in mind that the teaching is -as emphasised - gradual ,so wisdom is a development of the path training/path penetration. N: The sotåpanna has fully developed síla, he cannot transgress the five precepts nor commit akusala kamma leading to an unhappy rebirth. The anågåmi has fully developed calm, he has eradicated all clinging to sense pleasures. Síla and samådhi become fully developed by paññå. D: I assume that the 3 Noble Ones below Arahant state have still to perfect this or that link, so that the condition for enlightenment may be given. In practise we know that the path links are interrelated and the different types of persons have different skills . There are exceptions too in respect to the 5 precepts Sila .. on the other hand 8 precepts at 'Wan Phra' are recommended and so the scale of sila is open ( up to the 227 rules of the Order (vinaya) N:We read in the Commentary to the Mahåparinibbånasutta: "Such and such is síla (virtue), meaning, it is indeed síla, síla to that extent; here it is síla which are the four purities of síla. Samådhi is concentration. Wisdom should be understood as insight wisdom (vipassanå). As to the words, when it is fully developed by síla, this means, when he has abided in that síla etc., these produce concentration accompanying the path-consciousness and fruition-consciousness; when this is fully developed by that síla it is of great fruit and of great benefit. When he has abided in this concentration, they produce wisdom accompanying the path-consciousness and fruition-consciousness, and this, when it is fully developed by this concentration, is of great fruit, of great benefit. When he has abided in this wisdom, they produce the path- consciousness and fruition-consciousness, and thus when it is fully developed by this (wisdom) he is completely freed from the intoxicants." Thus, when we read about full development this pertains to lokuttara cittas arising at the different stages of enlightenment. ------ D: yes, sila supports.. samathi ...supports panna I appreciate that you refered to the training sequence, Nina , as I believe there are misunderstandings about it. with Metta Dieter. , #122521 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:22 am Subject: Forest Bliss :-) bhikkhu5 Friends: Remote & Solitary is Forest Bliss! The forest bhikkhu pays much attention to the experience of the forest. He thereby enters even deeper yet unattained depths of concentration. By living thus remote he is not distracted by any unsuitable phenomena. He is free from all anxiety and stress. He abandons attachment to life. He enjoys a taste of the bliss of seclusion, and the silenced mental peace. He lives secluded and apart. Calm and remote abodes delight his heart. The hermit that in woods can dwell alone, may gain this sweet bliss as well, which sublime taste is beyond the royal bliss even in any heavenly paradise. So does the forest delight any wise man calmed by his fine dwelling's ease. Sources: MN 121, AN III 343, Vism I 73 ALONE The one who sits and lives solitary, & walks alone finds great delight in the silence of the forest... Dhammapada story 305 SUCH ONE The One wearing only 3 robes, who is thin with veins showing, who meditates alone in the forest, such one is a Holy One... Dhammapada story 395 http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Forest_Bliss.htm Forest Bliss... Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net #122522 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:45 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna jonoabb Hi Rob E (122283) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > > J: I understand the teachings to explain that by virtue of coming to understand dhammas as they truly are, the mental qualities of ignorance and wrong view will be gradually eliminated. > > RE: I think I understand that difference in emphasis. It is interesting, and I will think about it. Along those lines, what do the mental qualities of ignorance and wrong view consist of? Do they give rise to deluded thoughts about what exists? How do they manifest in various ignorant and wrong understandings? > =============== J: Regarding, "what do the mental qualities of ignorance and wrong view consist of?", ignorance and wrong view are each mental factors (cetasikas) accompanying a citta. They are ignorant of, or have a wrong (deluded) view about, the dhamma that is the object of the citta. Regarding "Do they give rise to deluded thoughts about what exists?", deluded thoughts about what exists are conditioned by wrong view. Ignorance is simply not knowing - so no view (delusion) involved. Regarding, "How do they manifest in various ignorant and wrong understandings?", wrong view manifests as wrong understanding and wrong practice. Ignorance manifests as lack of interest in the way things are (there is no such thing as 'ignorant understanding' - it's a contradiction in terms!). > =============== > > > J: As regards the question: > > "How does arising kusala does create an action that results in more kusala arising?"; > > arising kusala adds to the accumulated kusala tendency, which makes more likely its future re-arising. > > RE: Okay, that is the most specific sense of this I have heard, and it makes sense. If we don't know the origin of kusala or of delusion and other akusala elements, I guess that's just the way it is. I take it that as the tendency to kusala accumulates it is "latent" until it reaches a force capable of arising as a kusala quality of some kind? > =============== J: I would imagine that any level of accumulated kusala could condition the arising of a kusala quality if the appropriate conditions are in place. In the case of the accumulated understanding of the path, those appropriate conditions include hearing the teachings explained correctly and in a manner such that they make sense to us (see the sutta and commentary on 'parato ghosa', the voice of another, quoted by Sarah in her thread with RobK and copied below). Jon From the Nanamoli/Bodhi translation of MN43: ************************************ "Friend, there are two conditions for the arising of right view: the voice of another (S: parato ghosa) and wise attention (S: yoniso manasikara)." ["MA: 'The voice of another' (parato ghosa) is the teaching of beneficial Dhamma. These two conditions are necessary for disciples to arrive at the right view of insight and the right view of the supramundane path....] ************************************ #122523 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:57 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna jonoabb Hi Rob E (122283) > =============== > RE: When you say "kusala" is that really a category in its own right, or does it stand as a general category for other specific qualities that are wholesome in one area or another. For instance, samatha is kusala, panna is kusala, I would take it that cetasikas like my favorites vittakha and vicara and other functions would be kusala; so do these individual kusala qualities develop their own tendencies towards arising, or does kusala develop in an overall way, or both? How does kusala express, in other words, as one or another kusala quality, characteristic or function? > =============== J: A citta is kusala if it is accompanied by one or more of the 3 kusala cetasikas that are 'roots' (Pali: hetu). These are the cetasikas called alobha, adosa and amoha/panna. Despite their 'negative' name-tags, these cetasikas are positive factors, and not just the absence of their 'opposites'. Adosa, for example, is the key mental factor of the metta citta. All kusala cittas are rooted in/accompanied by both amoha and adosa, but (obviously) not all are accompanied by panna. Certain cetasikas (including the 3 kusala roots) are kusala by nature and certain (including the 3 akusala roots) are akusala by nature. However, there are many cetasikas that have no fixed ethical quality, and these may accompany both kusala cittas and akusala cittas, taking the ethical quality of the citta that they accompany. For example, vitakka and vicara (2 of your favourites) accompany both kusala and akusala cittas, performing the same function in each case except that in one case those functions are performed in a kusala way and in the other, an akusala way. The significance of this is that these 'ethically variable' cetasikas are kusala only when they accompany a citta that is (already) kusala. There is no such thing as 'kusala' vitakka except as the vitakka that accompanies a kusala citta. In other words, a citta cannot be kusala *because of* the accompanying vitakka; it can only be kusala because of cetasikas that are kusala *by nature*. In the same way, when the texts refer to the *development* of kusala vitakka, this is a reference to the vitakka that accompanies citta that is rooted in amoha/panna as well as the the other 2 kusala roots. Of the cetasikas that constitute the factors of the NEP, 3 are ethically variable cetasikas. They are: - Right thought (sammaa-sankappa; vitakka cetasika) - Right effort (sammaa-vaayaama; viriya cetasika) - Right concentration (sammaa-samaadhi; ekaggata cetasika) (Of these, ekaggata cetasika is one of the 7 cetasikas that accompany every citta that arises. Other cetasikas in this class include contact, manasikaara, sanna and feeling.) The remaining 5 path factors are cetasikas that are kusala by nature. They are: - Right view (sammaa-ditthi; panna cetasika) - Right speech (sammaa-vaacaa; sammaa-vaacaa cetasika) - Right bodily action (sammaa-kammanta; sammaa-kammanta cetasika) - Right livelihood (sammaa-aajiiva; sammaa-aajiiva cetasika) - Right mindfulness (sammaa-sati; sati cetasika). (Other cetasikas that are kusala by nature include passadhi (calm), saddhaa (confidence) and hiri and otappa (shame and fear-of-blame).) Hoping this is clear (and makes sense!). Jon #122524 From: "sukinderpal narula" Date: Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:18 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti sukinderpal Hello Rob E, RE: Not particularly. What I wonder is whether that is redundant or not. Isn't it misleading to say something is a/ not really there, and b/ "free" of something else. Why does something that doesn't exist in time in the first place have to be "free" of the laws of time? S: I did have the impression that you were talking about language and I agree that some expressions can appear redundant. But with regard to the idea of concepts being time-freed, do you not see this as an important angle from which the reality / concept distinction is made? ========== RE: I feel the same way about "own-being," svabhava. Why would you want to say "own-being" which makes it sound like a dhamma has a very special kind of beingness of its own that it owns and that is its property. I know that is not what is meant, but I really do wonder why you would want to put something in a misleadingly romanticized kind of language that makes it sound special and precious when the intention is exactly the opposite - to show that dhammas are empty so citta can detach from them completely. S: Again, this is emphasizing the difference between concept and reality. As you know the idea of "emptiness" is used by the Mahayana indiscriminately, to apply to everything, including concepts. So in pointing out sabhava with regard to realities, we are saying that the general characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta (sunnata) applies only to realities with particular characteristic, function, manifestation and cause and not to concepts. ======== RE: So it seems self-defeating and confusing to me to put things that way, and I also suspect that somewhere along the way a sense of spiritual self-concept may have crept into such language. S: Howard for example, has been making this point here for many years, but I don't think that there is any ground for this, but more a case of being caught up in philosophy. Indeed it is the argument by Mahayana in their attempt to promote "Emptiness", which to me is not a result of understanding, but infatuation with the particular concept. ;-) In saying that a particular reality has its own being or sabhava, we are also pointing out the difference between different realities, which I think you agree. And let us not forget that when talking about all these realities, their conditionality is implied. So taking into account all this, namely, that each reality has different characteristic, functions etc, their general characteristic of impermanence etc, and the fact of conditionality, this leads to better understanding about anatta must it not? It appears that the objection and argument with regard to self-view creeping in is without any basis. It is in understanding a dhamma as dhamma, each different from the other as against a 'whole', that self-view is directly addressed. Sabhava is one way in which impersonal elements and the difference between them are emphasized. On the other hand, taking concepts for real is attanuditthi with attasanna. ======= RE: Why not just say that concepts "don't exist in time, they only exist as an idea in a moment of thinking" or something like that, S: I think it is a matter more of understanding than use of terminology. Do you see how in the above you end up saying that concepts "exist"? So really, how bad can saying that concepts are time-freed be when this in fact points to the fact that concepts *do not exist*? ======= RE: and for "own-being" to leave it said that it has "its own characteristic during its brief existence" rather than say it has "own-being" which sounds like an alternate possession of a self? S: Perhaps you are giving the meaning of 'being' not intended by those who use it in this particular context. You are probably thinking in terms of self-existence rather than the fact of say, feeling is what it is by virtue of it having a particular, characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause, different from say, perception or consciousness? ======= RE: I think these are serious issues about how these things are expressed that are more confusing and romantic than helpful and tending towards detachment. From what I can see there is no reason to use such romanticized terms for simple non-existence and simple characteristic of a mechanical arising dhamma that has certain properties for a moment of existence. S: Or perhaps you should not stop at the terms of expression, but read on to see what is being emphasized and what is said elsewhere with regard to the same. ======= > Perhaps Scott's objection is to the idea that thoughts are > 'produced' by thinking. Dhammas condition each other, they don't create > anything. RE: This is a very helpful idea that I would like to know more about. What is the difference between something being "conditioned" to arise with certain properties and it being "created" to be that way? Is it just semantic or more serious? What is the special understanding of "conditioned" that makes it more precise than "created?" This seems like an important thing to understand. S: Maybe this will help. In a moment of any experience, consciousness and all the accompanying mental factors rise at the same base at the same time and fall away together completely. In such a situation, could one be said to create the other? No, they each simply perform their particular functions without which the experience would not have happened. In other words, consciousness, intention, perception, feeling, life faculty etc. these are mutually dependent on each other for their arising. ======== > Why thoughts can't be said to be the 'product' of thinking is because > what takes place is that dhammas condition each other and not one giving > rise to the other. All nama dhammas rise and fall away at the same time, > and rupas of the senses must in fact arise before the nama dhammas > experiencing it. RE: Well that is fine. My problem is that concepts apparently don't follow those laws, so how does the concept exist at all? If it is non-existent -- not sure what that means completely -- then why is it "in the thought?" How can we talk about cars and bodies and all that and say they are "nonexistent" at the same time? S: Because they are objects of consciousness but only as that. Concepts are not "in the thought" but *are* the thoughts. You could say that thinking thinks thoughts or that it thinks concepts, same thing. We talk about cars and bodies exactly because thinking takes place and thoughts or concepts are the objects. This happens all the time as part of the natural order consciousness and no 'self' to determine when, how or why it should happen. That it is necessary for the functioning of any being does not mean that those concepts should be anything more than what they are. What we need to understand however is that all activities are the functions of realities and realities only no matter whether the object at any given moment is a concept or a reality. ======= RE: I'd like to know what the actuality of that is. Obviously the concept exists in a certain way -- as a part of image or language that can be referenced within a thought -- and doesn't exist in a more substantial way -- as an arising dhamma that has actuality. S: It appears that you can't escape the influence of an underlying view which insists that concepts have some level of reality. You distinguish realities from concept without also seeing that one exists and the other does not, in spite of what you say below. This makes it difficult to make progress in discussion. But we'll keep trying. ;-) ===== RE: Yet we are constantly tricked in deluded thinking into believing that what we refer to in thought and language *does* exist, so it seems that it comes to appear in an important way, even though not arising like dhammas. So what is that all about? S: You appear to think that wrong view applies only to the perception of concepts and not of realities. Perhaps you should not bring in the idea of wrong view at this point. And are you implying that there can be right view of concepts? There can be right view *with* concepts as object but not *of* concepts. Concepts are neither right nor wrong when it comes to the development of right understanding. Panna knows realities as realities and in the process know that concepts are not real by inference. If concepts appear 'important', this is because thinking is and not the thoughts. So instead of trying to understand concepts, you should understand thinking, memory and *all* realities without which there wouldn't be any concepts, especially since we have so much wrong understanding with regard to them. ====== > To illustrate, consider a moment of direct understanding of a dhamma. > Can it be said that citta or panna or any of the accompanying mental > factors "create" the object? RE: No, I understand this point. But here we are talking about dhammas or cetasikas, that, unlike concepts, do come into existence because of conditions. So the problem is only with how concepts are created. There is no problem in this discussion about how dhammas arise. They come out of conditions. S: And my point was that dhammas arise and only dhammas arise. Concepts appear because citta and the cetasikas that make up 'thinking' arise. To say that a concept is 'created' is like saying that they are brought into existence, and this can't be right can it? The shadow is shadow of something, but only that something has an existence. ======= > Thinking, like a moment of direct > understanding is a volitional process and is accompanied by more or less > the same cetasikas each performing their particular functions including > perception, applied thinking, sustained thinking, attention and so on. > So when thoughts are object of citta, they are not "produced" but more > like shadows of the thinking process. RE: Well that is a clue to the reality and non-reality of these thoughts. It exists like a shadow of the real process. Okay, somehow that translates into concepts that appear to recur as real things, but are not. S: Here is where you might want to consider wrong view. An enlightened person thinks as everyone else does. The difference is that he will never take concepts for "real things". Taking concepts for real is the function of wrong view and not because thinking thinks concepts. ====== > Besides, for a concept to be > recognizable as "something", this involves many, many process of cittas > where perceptions of raw color take place. So what happens is that one > citta conditions the next one on and on and the "something" which > finally comes to be the object, is a matter of what happens to precede. RE: This is very good - I appreciate this good detailed information about how that happens. It almost tells me how the concept comes into seeming existence, but not quite. I'm getting there though! S: :-) It is only one possible explanation which I happen to feel satisfied with. ====== > S: I'd be speculating as I've done above. And although as you can see, I > do sometimes think about it, however I do not consider it useful to do > so. And I wonder why you should find this important. RE: Well I find it important because it keeps coming up all the time. S: Conditioned by various realities and it is these that are the potential objects of the development of wisdom. ;-) ====== RE: We are dealing with concepts, concepts, concepts, and saying they don't really exist. I think if we have to keep dealing with them, we should have some idea what is going on. S: Isn't that what we've been trying to tell you about? When hearing about the reality / concept distinction if any level of wisdom has arisen (pariyatti), what is understood is that "what is going on" at any moment are realities rising and falling away while performing their particular functions. Yes, concepts repeatedly are the object of consciousness, and this conditions not only more mental, but also verbal and bodily actions all day. But given the understanding that no matter what the situation is that in fact there are only realities rising and falling away, the imperative is to develop more understanding of these realities and not the concepts, is it not? ====== RE: Otherwise it seems to me it is even more deluded, because we do take the concepts as if they exist, even while saying they do not. If we understand what the "trick" of pannati is, I think we have a better chance of looking at them with skepticism and moving on to the dhammas instead of getting stuck on our favorite concepts. S: I think you need to consider again and come to see that delusion and wrong understanding comes not because there is thinking, but due to the arising of the mental factors of ignorance and wrong view. And so again the imperative is to develop more understanding of the "realities" and not seeking an explanation with regard to the mechanism whereby concepts come to be the object of consciousness and the different mental factors, including ignorance and wrong view. And when you have a favorite concept, attachment is what is to be known for what it is. ;-) ====== > As you can see, thinking happens all the time. What is more important > therefore is to know the particular dhammas conditioning the thinking > and not the mechanism itself. For example when you think and ask these > particular questions, is this motivated by attachment and wrong view, or > is it by understanding? Would the answer given lead to seeing the > importance of understanding the present moment or just more thinking > with attachment? If the latter, what is the point then? RE: No for me I think it is helpful, so I can stop being confused by it. It is distracting to have all this unreality around and not know what it's doing there. I'd rather have a sense of what is happening, so I can see that they are not realities, not dhammas, more clearly, and head in the right direction. S: The only true foundation for right knowledge is through developing the understanding of ultimate realities. Failing this, no matter what explanation is given and how satisfying, only more ignorance and attachment follows. Metta, Sukin #122525 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:56 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna epsteinrob Hi Jon. > J: Regarding, "what do the mental qualities of ignorance and wrong view consist of?", ignorance and wrong view are each mental factors (cetasikas) accompanying a citta. They are ignorant of, or have a wrong (deluded) view about, the dhamma that is the object of the citta. Thank you, that is clear. > > =============== > In the case of the accumulated understanding of the path, those appropriate conditions include hearing the teachings explained correctly and in a manner such that they make sense to us (see the sutta and commentary on 'parato ghosa', the voice of another, quoted by Sarah in her thread with RobK and copied below). > From the Nanamoli/Bodhi translation of MN43: > > ************************************ > "Friend, there are two conditions for the arising of right view: > the voice of another (S: parato ghosa) and wise attention (S: yoniso > manasikara)." > ["MA: 'The voice of another' (parato ghosa) is the teaching of beneficial Dhamma. These two conditions are necessary for disciples to arrive at the right view of insight and the right view of the supramundane path....] > ************************************ Could you say a bit more about what constitutes or are the attributes of wise attention? Thanks, Rob E. - - - - - - - - #122526 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:05 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > Of the cetasikas that constitute the factors of the NEP, 3 are ethically variable cetasikas. They are: > - Right thought (sammaa-sankappa; vitakka cetasika) > - Right effort (sammaa-vaayaama; viriya cetasika) > - Right concentration (sammaa-samaadhi; ekaggata cetasika) > > (Of these, ekaggata cetasika is one of the 7 cetasikas that accompany every citta that arises. Other cetasikas in this class include contact, manasikaara, sanna and feeling.) > > The remaining 5 path factors are cetasikas that are kusala by nature. They are: > - Right view (sammaa-ditthi; panna cetasika) > - Right speech (sammaa-vaacaa; sammaa-vaacaa cetasika) > - Right bodily action (sammaa-kammanta; sammaa-kammanta cetasika) > - Right livelihood (sammaa-aajiiva; sammaa-aajiiva cetasika) > - Right mindfulness (sammaa-sati; sati cetasika). > > (Other cetasikas that are kusala by nature include passadhi (calm), saddhaa (confidence) and hiri and otappa (shame and fear-of-blame).) > > Hoping this is clear (and makes sense!). Strangely, it all did make sense, and was very helpful for my understanding of how kusala obtains in these factors. Thanks for those details! I'm a little confused about right concentration accompanying every citta, whether kusala or akusala. That seems to lead to a possibility of a citta arising with both right concentration and distractedness, agitation, restlessness, etc. - factors that would seem to be its opposites or antagonists. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = #122527 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:36 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti epsteinrob Hi Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sukinderpal narula" wrote: > > Hello Rob E, > > > RE: > Not particularly. What I wonder is whether that is redundant or not. Isn't it misleading to say something is a/ not really there, and b/ "free" of something else. Why does something that doesn't exist in time in the first place have to be "free" of the laws of time? > > > > S: I did have the impression that you were talking about language and I agree that some expressions can appear redundant. But with regard to the idea of concepts being time-freed, do you not see this as an important angle from which the reality / concept distinction is made? I would if I understood what it meant. I don't understand how something can be non-existent and "free of time" at the same time. If it just means it doesn't exist in time because it doesn't exist at all, that is indeed redundant and gives a misleading impression that there is some special relationship between time and the concept. > ========== > RE: > I feel the same way about "own-being," svabhava. Why would you want to say "own-being" which makes it sound like a dhamma has a very special kind of beingness of its own that it owns and that is its property. I know that is not what is meant, but I really do wonder why you would want to put something in a misleadingly romanticized kind of language that makes it sound special and precious when the intention is exactly the opposite - to show that dhammas are empty so citta can detach from them completely. > > > S: Again, this is emphasizing the difference between concept and reality. As you know the idea of "emptiness" is used by the Mahayana indiscriminately, to apply to everything, including concepts. So in pointing out sabhava with regard to realities, we are saying that the general characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta (sunnata) applies only to realities with particular characteristic, function, manifestation and cause and not to concepts. I understand pointing out that only dhammas have characteristics and I understand that point. But that does not explain the precious-sounding attribution of "own-being" instead of just saying "real" or "existent." No matter how you slice it own-being has a misleading sense of importance and ownership, which defeats the feeling of unimportance and detachment. I am trying to deal with the term here, not the meaning that it *should* indicate, which is fine. > ======== > RE: > So it seems self-defeating and confusing to me to put things that way, and I also suspect that somewhere along the way a sense of spiritual self-concept may have crept into such language. > > S: Howard for example, has been making this point here for many years, but I don't think that there is any ground for this, but more a case of being caught up in philosophy. Indeed it is the argument by Mahayana in their attempt to promote "Emptiness", which to me is not a result of understanding, but infatuation with the particular concept. ;-) But that is my point - that svabhava seems to have its own sense of infatuation for dhammas as being special and substantial. Two wrongs don't make a right. > In saying that a particular reality has its own being or sabhava, we are also pointing out the difference between different realities, which I think you agree. And let us not forget that when talking about all these realities, their conditionality is implied. So taking into account all this, namely, that each reality has different characteristic, functions etc, their general characteristic of impermanence etc, and the fact of conditionality, this leads to better understanding about anatta must it not? When you talk about anatta, specific characteristics of dhammas and distinguish them, talk about their functions, their rising and falling away - all descriptive of their reality, that is all fine and helps the understanding. But when you summarize that reality by using the two words own and being -- two words that smack of substantiality and eternalism much more than almost anything I can think of -- I can't say that this term is helpful or stands well for the realities you are describing. It seems ornate rather than simple, and triumphal rather than simple. I have no problem with the realities, just the term used to indicate them. I'm not a big fan of "paramatha" either. "Ultimate" has the sense of special and wonderful, not just "final" or "real" as it should. So personally I suspect that some self-view has crept into the creation of these terms and "perfumed" them. > It appears that the objection and argument with regard to self-view creeping in is without any basis. It is in understanding a dhamma as dhamma, each different from the other as against a 'whole', that self-view is directly addressed. Sabhava is one way in which impersonal elements and the difference between them are emphasized. On the other hand, taking concepts for real is attanuditthi with attasanna. I am talking about the term only, not the intention or the specific realities described and distinguished. If you really think "own-being" has a feeling of detachment and simplicity, then I am very surprised. It sounds like something special and entity-related to me, no matter how I try to justify it. Again, it is the term and its flavor or "perfume" that I am talking about. And to me it has a strong emanation that is off key. > ======= > RE: > Why not just say that concepts "don't exist in time, they only exist as an idea in a moment of thinking" or something like that, > > S: I think it is a matter more of understanding than use of terminology. Do you see how in the above you end up saying that concepts "exist"? Well I think we should be able to account to the indisputable fact that we spend much of our time thinking about them. So rather than getting verbal hair-splitting about the meanign of the word "existence," we should talk about what *kind* of existence they have. They obviously exist as a part of the content of thought, and not as realities, so we should talk about what the difference is, not create verbal self-contradictions like saying something is "non-existent" yet it is present in thought, yet it doesn't arise or fall, so it is "time-freed." These kinds of terms butting up against each other create a very confusing mess which has not just caught me, but many more educated members of this list, in its web of weird terminological contradictions. So we can't talk about concepts really except to say they "don't exist' [but are time-freed.] So when we try to find out what that means we wind up saying contradictory things, because the terms used are not helpful in the first place. > So really, how bad can saying that concepts are time-freed be when this in fact points to the fact that concepts *do not exist*? It doesn't point to it, it confuses it. And saying they don't exist is also confusing, since they are part of thought. The whole thing is confusing. We can't even talk about how they come into thought because then it seems like we're saying "they arise" when they don't. And yet there they are running our lives through thoughts about cars, bodies, people etc. Instead of being able to say how these concepts come into thought and wield such influence on our thoughts, we have to walk on eggshells or run the risk of using the wrong term. And there is no right term to talk about their illusory "existence." It's a mess! I feel this subject has not been handled well, the way that it has been framed. And I still don't know what it means for a thought-form like a concept to be "time-freed." It comes into being as part of a thought and then goes away with the thought's completion. So they actually rise and fall with thought instead of rising and falling in reality like dhammas. This seems more descriptive to me than saying non-describable things like they are "time-freed" which does not say what they are really like. > ======= > RE: > and for "own-being" to leave it said that it has "its own characteristic during its brief existence" rather than say it has "own-being" which sounds like an alternate possession of a self? > > S: Perhaps you are giving the meaning of 'being' not intended by those who use it in this particular context. You are probably thinking in terms of self-existence rather than the fact of say, feeling is what it is by virtue of it having a particular, characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause, different from say, perception or consciousness? Well being is a dangerous word to use since it usually implies a depth of existence or quality. So why use it as a term for what something is? It's either misleading or else its sneaking a sense of self into the dhamma. Either way it's difficult, and combined with "own" which implies ownership on the part of a self, it's deadly. > ======= > RE: > I think these are serious issues about how these things are expressed that are more confusing and romantic than helpful and tending towards detachment. From what I can see there is no reason to use such romanticized terms for simple non-existence and simple characteristic of a mechanical arising dhamma that has certain properties for a moment of existence. > > S: Or perhaps you should not stop at the terms of expression, but read on to see what is being emphasized and what is said elsewhere with regard to the same. That's a good point, but I still don't see why those terms are there at all. Own-being is not necessary. It is a dangerous label no matter what it stands for. It is redundant of characteristic but with much more unnecessary implicativeness. > ======= > > > Perhaps Scott's objection is to the idea that thoughts are > > 'produced' by thinking. Dhammas condition each other, they don't create > > anything. > > RE: > This is a very helpful idea that I would like to know more about. What is the difference between something being "conditioned" to arise with certain properties and it being "created" to be that way? Is it just semantic or more serious? What is the special understanding of "conditioned" that makes it more precise than "created?" This seems like an important thing to understand. > > > S: Maybe this will help. > > In a moment of any experience, consciousness and all the accompanying mental factors rise at the same base at the same time and fall away together completely. In such a situation, could one be said to create the other? No, they each simply perform their particular functions without which the experience would not have happened. In other words, consciousness, intention, perception, feeling, life faculty etc. these are mutually dependent on each other for their arising. Okay, that is good. Thanks. > ======== > > Why thoughts can't be said to be the 'product' of thinking is because > > what takes place is that dhammas condition each other and not one giving > > rise to the other. All nama dhammas rise and fall away at the same time, > > and rupas of the senses must in fact arise before the nama dhammas > > experiencing it. > > RE: > Well that is fine. My problem is that concepts apparently don't follow those laws, so how does the concept exist at all? If it is non-existent -- not sure what that means completely -- then why is it "in the thought?" How can we talk about cars and bodies and all that and say they are "nonexistent" at the same time? > > S: Because they are objects of consciousness but only as that. > Concepts are not "in the thought" but *are* the thoughts. You could say that thinking thinks thoughts or that it thinks concepts, same thing. Okay, so far so good. > We talk about cars and bodies exactly because thinking takes place and thoughts or concepts are the objects. This happens all the time as part of the natural order consciousness and no 'self' to determine when, how or why it should happen. That it is necessary for the functioning of any being does not mean that those concepts should be anything more than what they are. What we need to understand however is that all activities are the functions of realities and realities only no matter whether the object at any given moment is a concept or a reality. Okay, well that all seems fine and is helpful. I still think the way we talk about concepts, though, is difficult. > ======= > RE: > I'd like to know what the actuality of that is. Obviously the concept exists in a certain way -- as a part of image or language that can be referenced within a thought -- and doesn't exist in a more substantial way -- as an arising dhamma that has actuality. > > S: It appears that you can't escape the influence of an underlying view which insists that concepts have some level of reality. No, I'm just looking at what is there - thoughts do take place and they do have these objects. I'd just like to be able to talk about this fact without falling into "illegal terminology." > You distinguish realities from concept without also seeing that one exists and the other does not, in spite of what you say below. This makes it difficult to make progress in discussion. But we'll keep trying. ;-) It's also difficult to make progress when there is no legal way to talk about something. I understand the way in which concepts do not exist - they don't refer to anything that actually is out there. No cars, bodies etc. They are "just thoughts." But of course they do exist as thoughts! It is the concept that we think exists as a reality that is said to "not exist" and I understand that. But to say they "don't exist" even as concepts is just frustrating. When I say they exist as thoughts, I mean they *only* exist as thoughts, but we should be able to talk about them that way, because they are indeed the content of thinking, even though they are wrong view and don't exist in the world. That's as far as I can go tonight. Hopefully more tomorrow... Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #122528 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti nilovg Dear Rob E and Sukinder, Op 13-feb-2012, om 4:18 heeft sukinderpal narula het volgende geschreven: > RE: > and for "own-being" to leave it said that it has "its own > characteristic during its brief existence" rather than say it has > "own-being" which sounds like an alternate possession of a self? > > S: Perhaps you are giving the meaning of 'being' not intended by > those who use it in this particular context. You are probably > thinking in terms of self-existence rather than the fact of say, > feeling is what it is by virtue of it having a particular, > characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause, > different from say, perception or consciousness? -------- N: Own being, sa-bhava is just an unfortunate translation from Pali. Bhava means nature, and with its own nature means rather, as Sukin explains, with its own characteristic, nothing more than that. Kh sujin speaks often about sabhava dhammas (in Thai: sepaap tham) as just: realities with their own characteristics. ------ Nina. #122529 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the threefold training. nilovg Dear Dieter, I cannot answer your post now, but you mention many interesting points. We have to go to a funeral of a member of our family and so I have to delay answering posts. While working at my revision of the Survey text, I saw just now another passage about the threefold training. It shows that there are many aspects. I quote: The development of satipaììhåna is a threefold training (sikkhå): training in higher morality, adhisíla sikkhå, training in higher consciousness, adhicitta sikkhå, training in higher wisdom, adhipaññå sikkhå. When sati is aware of the realities that are appearing, there is higher síla, síla that is more refined. Sati is aware of the characteristics of citta, cetasika and rúpa. It is aware of kusala dhammas and akusala dhammas before actions through the body or through speech arise.1) Satipaììhåna is training in higher consciousness, which means concentration, samådhi or ekaggatå cetasika.2) When sammå-sati arises there is concentration on the nåma or rúpa that appears, on the dhamma that arises and falls away very rapidly. Satipaììhåna is training in higher wisdom, because paññå investigates and studies in detail the characteristics of realities as they are appearing in daily life, so that they can be known as they are. ------- 1) Sati guards the six doors and can prevent the commitment of akusala through body or speech. 2) Sometimes citta stands for concentration. ***** Nina. #122530 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:04 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti ptaus1 Hi Scott, > > pt: "...I'm guessing the nature of your occupation requires you to prod people all the time, and when they say A, it's then your job to find out whether they really mean A, or whether in fact they mean B, C or D, all in the interest of preventing self-harm on their part..." > > Scott: This is the problem with imagination, pt. See? You are a very imaginative guy as well! pt: Hence notice the para starts with "I'm guessing..." to indicate my speculation/imagination. Perhaps I'll just use "I imagine" from now on to avoid confusion. > Scott: ...Conceptually speaking, are we what we do or does what we do reflect who we are? And the Dhamma suggests that this is all absolutely and completely irrelevant. pt: I dis/agree somewhat. Imo Dhamma primarily suggests there's attachment, aversion, etc. Sure, we can then conclude - attachment, etc to the irrelevant stuff above. But it is the attachment, etc, that is to be known. To say that the rest is irrelevant can be useful to indicate what's important (i.e. that knowing attachment and the rest of dhammas is what's important), but to keep saying it over and over seems like just more thinking. So neither understanding dhammas, nor pariyatti (thinking with panna), but only more thinking about thinking, and usually with dosa. This is irrelevant, that means absolutely nothing, etc - don't know, seems like thinking with dosa mostly to me. > Scott: ...I don't happen to think that A necessarily means A. I happen to think this is a concrete approach. I figure that a Buddha would have seen it differently and that I don't, and so question what appears at the surface. pt: Sure, that's fine. Problem imo happens when you start to imply directly or indirectly that someone is said what s/he didn't really. That can be perceived as lying, slander, hostility, etc. > > pt: "...the texts only mention panna (of insight strength) discerning arising and falling of a dhamma (on that particular stage of insight). I'm not aware of an instance in the texts that mentions panna (of insight strength) discerning the arising and falling of a concept..." > > Scott: I recently posted a transcription of a discussion with A. Sujin in which she notes that pariyatti is 'kusala thinking with pa~n~naa.' See the first post in this thread. Do you agree that concepts *do not* arise and fall? pt: Don't know. I can agree that's the generally accepted interpretation of the texts here. > pt: "...My understanding of the first issue is that it refers to panna of insight strength, which takes a dhamma as object, so concepts are beside the point so to speak, as they are not objects at moments of insight...." > > Scott: Do you agree that, because concepts are without characteristics, they don't come into the range of pa~n~naa - a dhamma which is aware of characteristics? pt: Perhaps a bit more precision to consider this. Afaik, javana cittas with panna of insight strength during the first (few) mind-door process(es) take a nimitta of a fallen-away dhamma as object. Concepts (different sort of nimitta) become objects of the mind-door processes that follow afterwards. Can panna accompany these later mind-door processes? I would think that it can (thus making it pariyatti probably), but since the object of the mind-door process is a concept, not a (nimitta of) a dhamma, this panna probably wouldn't classify as panna of insight strength. > > pt: "...The second issue would mean that concepts are objects, but these are not moments of vipassana, and there's certainly no concern with the issue of arising and falling of a concept, and further, concepts are objects only in so far as they serve to better understand the world of dhammas so to speak. .." > > Scott: Of course concepts are objects. It would not be 'moments of vipassana' because concepts are not realities. Concepts are objects insofar as there is citta arising which takes concepts as object - at any moment. In moments when citta arises and thinks of me as a psychologist this doesn't 'serve to better understand the world of dhammas,' does it, and so must not be pariyatti - must not be accompanied by pa~n~naa. pt: Probably not pariyatti, but can it not be a citta with adosa? Metta has to do with beings (as concepts, like Scott the psychologist). But, no panna at that time, though maybe just afterwards? Probably not, but possible? > Scott: Pariyatti is being said to do with thinking with pa~n~naa about the Dhamma. With the presence of pa~n~naa, this thinking must be about dhammas and must, by the mere presence of pa~n~naa, be a better understanding. pt: Ok, adding that thinking about D/dhamma does not guarantee it being pariyatti. Without panna, it's just another activity with some sort of akusala cetasikas. > > pt: "...and might also imply that concepts are real in some way..." > > Scott: In what way do you imagine that concepts are 'real in some way?' pt: I think you mentioned that someone said panna can tell between a dhamma and a concept. I was wondering what that means exactly, if as you say concepts don't come into the range of panna? Best wishes pt #122531 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] the threefold training. moellerdieter Dear Nina, sorry to learn that you lost a family member .. Please take any time convenient for you to comment the points of interest . you wrote: While working at my revision of the Survey text, I saw just now another passage about the threefold training. It shows that there are many aspects. I quote: The development of satipaììhåna is a threefold training (sikkhå): training in higher morality, adhisíla sikkhå, training D: sorry ,I probably missed something .. which text you are revising /quoting from? with Metta I #122532 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:55 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti scottduncan2 pt, Me: "I recently posted a transcription of a discussion with A. Sujin in which she notes that pariyatti is 'kusala thinking with pa~n~naa.' See the first post in this thread. Do you agree that concepts *do not* arise and fall?" pt: "...Don't know. I can agree that's the generally accepted interpretation of the texts here..." Scott: How do *you* see it then? Scott. #122533 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:37 am Subject: Re: Unsubscribing szmicio Dear All, A couple of good reminders. Where can I find more Acharn Sujin talks from January? Best wishes Lukas > > S: Yes, all true. Best of all is when there's no concern about *me* > > or what will *happen to us* at all - just passing dhammas. In KK, > > Jessica told K.Sujin she looked particularly well, with more energy > > than when she'd met her before. K.Sujin replied by saying something > > like "Really? I don't think about it at all." It's like when people > > ask her how she feels about repeating the same answers or about > > concerns for the Foundation and so on --- when there is less > > thinking of oneself, one's health, one's growing older, one's > > death, one's possessions and so on, life is simpler and *lighter*, > > lighter with less of a burden of worrying about oneself. > > > -------- > > > > >Ann: And so much of the time we go on in ignorance finding > > ourselves caught up in the stories of being able to direct our > > lives. Your experiences seem to provide occasion for urgency - but > > I find much of that too is of the akusala variety - ie. lobha for > > more understanding etc. Not all of it - but best know when it is > > lobha. > > ... > > S: Most of the day, lobha rules for sure. But, as you say, lobha > > can be known when it appears, just like all the other dhammas > > appearing now - seeing, hearing and so on. Any experiences just > > come back to the dhammas now. > > ... > > >Ann: There is so much attachment to our feelings - our wants and > > the subsequent disappointments when things do not go the way we had > > anticipated or hoped. When one is fortunate enough to have heard > > the "right" dhamma the more one confronts these "stories" with > > understanding the more one can see the uselessness of the worry, > > grief, anxiety etc. I can see more and more how understanding of > > the presently arisen dhamma is the only way to understand anatta, > > little by little. Yes, it takes patience. It takes courage too. > > Ann: ... I recognized that it does take courage to face the true > > nature of realities. I don't know of a mental factor of "courage", > > unless it is synonomous with or included with one of the > > cetasika's. I can see how panna will lead to courage to know,"face" > > realities. > > Ann: Achan Sujin has also often asked, when we speak of various > > moments of lobha, dosa etc., "whose lobha, dosa?". She explained > > that we can notice them, but it is still "my" lobha etc. when there > > is no direct understanding. When there is direct understanding, it > > is not mine. > > ... > > S: Yes, is there a concern to have less lobha, less dosa, more > > understanding? If so, "my" mental states for sure. I like your last > > comment: "When there is direct understanding, it is not mine." #122534 From: "azita" Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:54 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti gazita2002 Hallo Nina, RobE and Sukin, > Dear Rob E and Sukinder, > Op 13-feb-2012, om 4:18 heeft sukinderpal narula het volgende > geschreven: > > > RE: > > and for "own-being" to leave it said that it has "its own > > characteristic during its brief existence" rather than say it has > > "own-being" which sounds like an alternate possession of a self? > > > > S: Perhaps you are giving the meaning of 'being' not intended by > > those who use it in this particular context. You are probably > > thinking in terms of self-existence rather than the fact of say, > > feeling is what it is by virtue of it having a particular, > > characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause, > > different from say, perception or consciousness? > -------- > N: Own being, sa-bhava is just an unfortunate translation from Pali. > Bhava means nature, and with its own nature means rather, as Sukin > explains, with its own characteristic, nothing more than that. Kh > sujin speaks often about sabhava dhammas (in Thai: sepaap tham) as > just: realities with their own characteristics. Azita: Isn't it because of these realities with their own characteristics that concepts come about? If there were no realities there would be no concepts. Mayb thats me making it too simple, however its the way I understand realities and concepts. I think that without some degree of right understanding of the way realities 'operate' then there will be confusion as to how concepts come to be, patience, courage and good cheer azita #122535 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:17 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna truth_aerator Hi RobertE, all >I'm a little confused about right concentration accompanying every >citta, whether kusala or akusala. >=============== Apparently even when one is restless one is still one-pointed on one object, which makes the idea of this "concentration" to be something other than what the Buddha has taught. Think. If all mental states already have concentration (ekaggata cetasika) than what is the point in Buddha telling us to develop concentration? As if none of us have it already... If all and any occasions of kusala citta (be it during dana or hearing the Dhamma) right concentration is already present - then why did the Buddha tell us to go to secluded places, sit cross-legged and meditate (such as anapanasati)? Don't let *metaphysics obscure the clear teaching of the Buddha. *The argument can go as follows: There is only one citta at a time, and only one object of the citta. Thus one-pointedness is present with every citta...It is pointless to talk about developing what we already have, and if one can be one-pointed while being distracted, then I hope you get the idea about worthiness of such one-pointedness. This may sound OK until one reflects and reads what the Buddha has actually said and how He defined Right Concentration (Samma-Samadhi). With metta, Alex #122536 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:30 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna scottduncan2 Alex, A: "Apparently even when one is restless one is still one-pointed on one object..." Scott: What motivates someone to keep posting for years on a list which espouses views he has never agreed with? Scott. #122537 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:28 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E and Sukinder, > Op 13-feb-2012, om 4:18 heeft sukinderpal narula het volgende > geschreven: > > > RE: > > and for "own-being" to leave it said that it has "its own > > characteristic during its brief existence" rather than say it has > > "own-being" which sounds like an alternate possession of a self? > > > > S: Perhaps you are giving the meaning of 'being' not intended by > > those who use it in this particular context. You are probably > > thinking in terms of self-existence rather than the fact of say, > > feeling is what it is by virtue of it having a particular, > > characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause, > > different from say, perception or consciousness? > -------- > N: Own being, sa-bhava is just an unfortunate translation from Pali. > Bhava means nature, and with its own nature means rather, as Sukin > explains, with its own characteristic, nothing more than that. Kh > sujin speaks often about sabhava dhammas (in Thai: sepaap tham) as > just: realities with their own characteristics. :-) Thanks for that clarification. "With it's own nature," meaning "with it's own characteristic" sounds a lot better. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #122538 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:38 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti epsteinrob Hi Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "azita" wrote: > > Hallo Nina, RobE and Sukin, > > > > Dear Rob E and Sukinder, > > Op 13-feb-2012, om 4:18 heeft sukinderpal narula het volgende > > geschreven: > > > > > RE: > > > and for "own-being" to leave it said that it has "its own > > > characteristic during its brief existence" rather than say it has > > > "own-being" which sounds like an alternate possession of a self? > > > > > > S: Perhaps you are giving the meaning of 'being' not intended by > > > those who use it in this particular context. You are probably > > > thinking in terms of self-existence rather than the fact of say, > > > feeling is what it is by virtue of it having a particular, > > > characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause, > > > different from say, perception or consciousness? > > -------- > > N: Own being, sa-bhava is just an unfortunate translation from Pali. > > Bhava means nature, and with its own nature means rather, as Sukin > > explains, with its own characteristic, nothing more than that. Kh > > sujin speaks often about sabhava dhammas (in Thai: sepaap tham) as > > just: realities with their own characteristics. > > Azita: Isn't it because of these realities with their own characteristics that concepts come about? If there were no realities there would be no concepts. > Mayb thats me making it too simple, however its the way I understand realities and concepts. I think that without some degree of right understanding of the way realities 'operate' then there will be confusion as to how concepts come to be, > > patience, courage and good cheer > azita That makes sense to me too. I don't have a problem understanding a dhamma having particular characteristics or functions. It was just the term that bothered me -- apparently it can be translated in a more direct way that seems fine. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - #122539 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:42 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna epsteinrob Hi Alex. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hi RobertE, all > > > >I'm a little confused about right concentration accompanying every >citta, whether kusala or akusala. > >=============== > > Apparently even when one is restless one is still one-pointed on one object, which makes the idea of this "concentration" to be something other than what the Buddha has taught. > > Think. If all mental states already have concentration (ekaggata cetasika) than what is the point in Buddha telling us to develop concentration? As if none of us have it already... > > If all and any occasions of kusala citta (be it during dana or hearing the Dhamma) right concentration is already present - then why did the Buddha tell us to go to secluded places, sit cross-legged and meditate (such as anapanasati)? > > Don't let *metaphysics obscure the clear teaching of the Buddha. > > *The argument can go as follows: There is only one citta at a time, and only one object of the citta. Thus one-pointedness is present with every citta...It is pointless to talk about developing what we already have, and if one can be one-pointed while being distracted, then I hope you get the idea about worthiness of such one-pointedness. > > This may sound OK until one reflects and reads what the Buddha has actually said and how He defined Right Concentration (Samma-Samadhi). This particular point surprised me and does seem confusing. I am waiting to hear about how right concentration is to be developed but is already present in each citta. I am guessing that it may be a question of degree, as with panna as it develops. Obviously there is basic concentration in many simple tasks which is not the same sort of right concentration that is developed in jhana or other highly developed forms of concentration, so it may be something like that. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = #122540 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:43 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna epsteinrob Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Alex, > > > A: "Apparently even when one is restless one is still one-pointed on one object..." > > Scott: What motivates someone to keep posting for years on a list which espouses views he has never agreed with? This is the kind of personal comment that I think we are now trying to avoid. Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - #122541 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:07 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna truth_aerator Hello RobertE, all, >RE:This particular point surprised me and does seem confusing. I am >waiting to hear about how right concentration is to be developed but >is already present in each citta. >==================== I wonder about that as well. Apparently with every wholesome state there is already "right concentration". It is said in Dhs (PTS 9). Reading the Suttas, it is obvious that the Buddha did encourage long and hard development of the path that can last more than split second. So for some people "split second kusala" is too short and too weak to pin all one's hopes on. With best wishes, Alex #122542 From: "philip" Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:14 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna philofillet Hi Scott, all > A: "Apparently even when one is restless one is still one-pointed on one object..." > > Scott: What motivates someone to keep posting for years on a list which espouses views he has never agreed with? Tons of lobha and moha (each paramattha dhamma weighs less than a billionth of a gram, but they add up) and the very occasional moment of right understanding. At KK we discussed the prevalence of lobha. I think meditators see lobha as something that can be identified in their meditation. They don't understand that everything they do is rooted in it, that realization has to come first. The first javana cittas after the first rebirth citta are rooted in lobha, A.S repeated that at KK. I'm not sure that there is textual support for that, but it feels very true to me (and lobha.) Phil p.s sorry about your cat, but after careful consideration I have decided not to radiate metta, have to store it up for use on humans, sorry. Seriously, sorry. #122543 From: "philip" Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:16 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna philofillet Hi again > The first javana cittas after the first rebirth citta Oops, typo, only one rebirth citta of course. Phil #122544 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:31 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna truth_aerator Hello Phil, all, >At KK we discussed the prevalence of lobha. I think meditators see >lobha as something that can be identified in their meditation. They >don't understand that everything they do is rooted in it, that >realization has to come first. >===================================================== As if daily life of lay non-meditators has less lobha. Not every meditator is ignorant about lobha. It seems that since meditators observe their minds more than busy non-meditating householders, they can more knowledgeable in this regard. Book knowledge is one thing. Actual experience is another. I don't value arm-chair advice as much as advice that comes from actual experience. Things that can look good on paper may turn out to be something else in reality. With metta, Alex #122545 From: "philip" Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:01 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna philofillet Hi Alex (kind of a p.s to Sarah later.) > As if daily life of lay non-meditators has less lobha. Of course not! Lobha galore for all of us in the realms of sense door experience. > > Not every meditator is ignorant about lobha. It seems that since meditators observe their minds more than busy non-meditating householders, they can more knowledgeable in this regard. Well, you know, I can appreciate how there is confidence that by meditating one can sit and see desires come and go, but my point is that one fails to see just how deep and pervasive lobha is, it is not a passing desire like a desire for strippers or whatever might come up and fall away in meditation, it is what our existence is rooted in. I think meditators fail to appreciate this, so whatever they do just ends up accumulating more and more lobha and ignorance. You know Alex, I do think this might click with you someday. And when it clicks everything changes. > Book knowledge is one thing. Actual experience is another. I don't value arm-chair advice as much as advice that comes from actual experience. Things that can look good on paper may turn out to be something else in reality. > Well, I can see this. From the point of view of a meditator, it seems to make more sense to talk about meditation with each other instead of trying to promote it to people who aren't interested in it. That's why it always seems more logical to that meditators would go to places like Dhammawheel to talk about meditation with other meditators. Sarah, I promised you at KK that I wouldn't tell people to go away, and honestly I'm not doing that here. It just seems sensible that people would talk about practice with other practicioners. DSG could possibly somehow someday be a place where paramattha dhammas are discussed instead of all this talk about practice, but that is just a little lobha rooted dream of mine, no big deal at this time. :) Phil #122546 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:38 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna scottduncan2 Alex, Phil, (Rob E.), A: "Apparently even when one is restless one is still one-pointed on one object..." Me: "What motivates someone to keep posting for years on a list which espouses views he has never agreed with?" Ph: "Tons of lobha and moha (each paramattha dhamma weighs less than a billionth of a gram, but they add up) and the very occasional moment of right understanding..." Scott: No, it's the motivation for the ongoing need to oppose I wonder about. I'm just curious. I don't consider a question such as mine to be politically incorrect at all. I'm not spewing vitriol. I don't care if this occurs. There has to be some sort of foil against which the predominant message of the list is to be applied. Just asking. Just curious. If certain views are shown to be in error constantly then why constantly bring them up? Surely the desire to learn has long since been extinguished. Is it a desire to preach? To simply oppose? Is it a secret wish to be able to see it the right way? These other dhammas - we all contend with them, so it can't be just these. Or else we are all here because of these. And Phil, as you know, no one can 'radiate metta' - that's magical thinking. But thanks. Scott. #122547 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:09 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna jonoabb Hi Rob E, Scott and All --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Scott. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > > > Alex, > > > > > > A: "Apparently even when one is restless one is still one-pointed on one object..." > > > > Scott: What motivates someone to keep posting for years on a list which espouses views he has never agreed with? > > This is the kind of personal comment that I think we are now trying to avoid. > =============== Yes, and thanks for posting this reminder. All, if discussing this thread further, please do so at a general (Dhamma) level and not in a way that is personal to any particular member. Thanks. Jon #122548 From: "philip" Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:15 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna philofillet Hi Scott and all > And Phil, as you know, no one can 'radiate metta' - that's magical thinking. But thanks. Since I have popped by and am distracting myself from the translation project I am supposed to be working on, I will carry on for another post. Of course I was joking about radiating metta, but I can report on an interesting discussion with A.Sujin. I told her in my experience doing metta meditation and believing in things like "radiating metta" does have an impact on behaviour, in my experience. If we do it in the morning, as I used to, there tends to be "nicer" behaviour towards people later. Of course it is all rooted in lobha, attachment to the pleasant mental feeling involved, and done without understanding (which it obviously is) does nothing whatsoever to loosen the binds of craving and ignorance that keep us in Samsara. Sukin, Rob K and I had a coffee on my last morning in Bangkok, and Rob K and I agreed that meditation as practiced popularly does tend to produce nice people who do nice things to each other and are less likely to beat each other up and kill each other etc. Sukin was dubious, and now that I think of it I can see that of course even for those utterly nice people you meet at new-agey "boodisty" gatherings in North America, etc, conditions could lead to outrageous behaviour at any moment. But on the whole, believing in radiating metta and practicing it does impact behaviour. But being nice people is not the point of Dhamma, that's what people don't get, they are so attached to all the mental experiences involved in sitting on a cushion with incense and Enya and a purring cat (ooops!) nearby... OK, back to work, back in a week or whenever. Phil #122549 From: "philip" Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:20 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna philofillet Hi again >>they are so attached to all the mental experiences involved in sitting on a cushion with incense and Enya and a purring cat (ooops!) nearby... Correction, the delusion involved in meditation would surely lead one well past Enya into Noble Silence. Phil #122550 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:38 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna scottduncan2 Phil, Ph: "... and a purring cat (ooops!) nearby..." Scott: A dying cat, actually, for me... Scott. #122551 From: "philip" Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:19 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna philofillet Hi Scott and all > Ph: "... and a purring cat (ooops!) nearby..." > > Scott: A dying cat, actually, for me... Yes, "for me", as Lukas noted... But I saw my dog get hit right in front of me, and ran down to the house to find him already there, lying in a pool of blood, whimpering in pain, I beat you on this one. On the other hand, I will always hold you in awe because your wife died at such a young age. It is always about us, but sometimes it is about us by third-person proxy. I bet if people didn't know your wife died they will see you in a more sympathetic light. It's kind of ridiculous how that works, but it does. Or if your face in the files was scowling in prep for battle instead of smiling, etc. OK, I finished my translation project, back off the computer. I'm down to 30 minutes or so a day on the i-phone and feeling the predictably good emotional benefits of believing that addictions are being defeated etc. Mana, lobha, moha, on and on and on.... Phil #122552 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:11 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna scottduncan2 Jon, J: "...at a general (Dhamma) level..." Scott: I am referring to the view, Jon. I am referring to the Dhamma level. Momentary concentration is being disputed, and is repeatedly disputed, as being irrelevant. Views that have it, for example, that momentary concentration is enough have been communicated over and over again. I think that this is correct. You think that this is correct. I've read you to assert this time and time again. I get it. I agree each time. When opposing views are communicated time and again, as if nothing ever has been addressed, I ask what it is that motivates this constant negating. This isn't about people, it's about dhammas. What are they? You want discussion and yet discussants don't discuss - they repeatedly state the same message without ever varying it. There is no wish to discuss, as far as I can tell. Do you actually think that this is the case? That these views are put forward for the purpose of discussing? What is the point? There is no leverage to be applied against this constant negation. While agreeing with Kh. Sujin, I am certainly not so attached to her and her teaching as to be satisfied with yet another opportunity to repeat it in response to yet another repeated expression of total wrong view. I think that the views that are in opposition to those with which I agree (and that refers to your views, since, except in these instances, I am in total agreement with you - I see it as you do) are overly protected on the list, and those, like myself, who share what I consider to be the correct view, are alienated and controlled and forced into silence by the unreasonable demands of dissenters who imagine themselves to have the sole claim on free speech on the list. These expect to go unopposed in any way. I appreciate the list and won't be 'unsubscribing' since I want access to U.P. even if I am totally banned from ever speaking out again. I just don't happen to appreciate the hegemony of naysayers and the handcuffing of supporting members. I don't expect this to be posted, since I am aware that I am being monitored. It does reflect the frustrations of a member of the list who is actually 'with the program' as it were. Scott. #122553 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:31 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna scottduncan2 Phil, Ph: "...I bet if people didn't know your wife died they will see you in a more sympathetic light. It's kind of ridiculous how that works, but it does. Or if your face in the files was scowling in prep for battle instead of smiling, etc..." Scott: And I find it all an appalling hypocrisy. And I'm the biggest hypocrite (for real, man, this is not just conceit ha ha) but if this fact had to be the arbitrator in who got to say what on the list, then it would be a totally inactive sector of ethereal space. Scott. #122554 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:27 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna jonoabb Hi Scott --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Jon, > > J: "...at a general (Dhamma) level..." > > Scott: I am referring to the view, Jon. I am referring to the Dhamma level. Momentary concentration is being disputed, and is repeatedly disputed, as being irrelevant. ... When opposing views are communicated time and again, as if nothing ever has been addressed, I ask what it is that motivates this constant negating. This isn't about people, it's about dhammas. What are they? > =============== J: Different folks have different ways of discussing. For some, what you describe above is a way of holding a discussion. > =============== > Scott: ... I think that the views that are in opposition to those with which I agree (and that refers to your views, since, except in these instances, I am in total agreement with you - I see it as you do) are overly protected on the list, and those, like myself, who share what I consider to be the correct view, are alienated and controlled and forced into silence by the unreasonable demands of dissenters who imagine themselves to have the sole claim on free speech on the list. These expect to go unopposed in any way. > =============== J: There is no 'right of free speech' here. Everyone is subject to the same guidelines, and we try to apply these evenly and consistently. While you think the naysayers are overly protected, others would like to see less aggressiveness, or less sarcasm, or less of whatever else, on the part of certain members. To all who struggle with the content or tone from time to time, we say that participation in a list such as this requires tolerance of others' views and posting styles. If you find a particular member's messages not to your liking, the best approach may be to ignore those messages. After all, everyone can see the poster and his/her views for what they are. > =============== > Scott: I appreciate the list and won't be 'unsubscribing' since I want access to U.P. even if I am totally banned from ever speaking out again. I just don't happen to appreciate the hegemony of naysayers and the handcuffing of supporting members. > =============== J: Glad to hear you'll be staying around! Appreciate your support, and appreciate even more your (and anyone's) kusala. Jon #122555 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:41 pm Subject: KK discussions - was: Unsubscribing sarahprocter... Dear Lukas & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > A couple of good reminders. Where can I find more Acharn Sujin talks from January? ... S: I'm afraid you'll have to wait patiently to listen to the audio. I did send some notes from the Bkk discussion at the time here (try searching 'sujin bangkok 2012 discussions) and have been meaning to add a few more (relating to points that have been raised here) in KK, but not done so yet (and no notes). You'll also have seen I've been transcribing a few brief comments. A friend, Tom, who was at KK sent me this link to some video he made of part of a discussion: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBBE3E35A4C9D5237 I don't know if this will work for you and, to be honest, I've only watched a very small part so far. I meant to send the link before. I had no idea he was filming and would have sat somewhere else if I'd known:). We're working on the editing and uploading of the excellent audio from last March in KK - did you find the ones uploaded so far (not completed)? If so, why not share some of the comments you find inspiring? Thx for sharing your discussions with Luraya. I'm glad she also finds the study and careful reflection of the Dhamma useful. Metta Sarah ==== #122556 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > a good and necessary topic to discuss : the mundane and the supramundane right understanding/view , because it concerns as well > the issue of the conventional world and the world of conditioned dhammas, both true within their domain , relative to the view . > As I understand some members deny the reality of the mundane /conventional world , claiming the only truth is the reality of the world of dhammas.. > > looking forward to talk about ... ... S: I'm wondering if there's some misunderstanding between mundane/supramundane right view on the one hand and absolute truths/conventional truths on the other? It seems that you may be conflating mundane view and conventional truths? Just to briefly summarise the terms as used by some of us and in the texts as I understand them: 1. Mundane right view (lokiya sammaa di.t.thi) refers to the sammaa di.t.thi of the path which is not supramundane (lokuttara samma di.t.thi). Usually, such as in MN 117, it is satipa.t.thaana/vipassanaa that is being referred to. It is not "conventional understanding" or the "conventional world" that is being referred to. The objects of (lokiya) samma di.t.thi (mundane right view) in these contexts are always paramattha dhammas, i.e naamas and ruupas, one at a time. 2. Supramundane right view (lokuttara sammaa di.t.thi) refers to the sammaa di.t.thi of the path at the moments of enlightenment. At these moments of path consciousness (magga citta) and fruition consciousness (phaala citta), the object is always nibbaana. These cittas are "supra" or outside the ordinary realm of consciousness. 3. Conventional truths (sammuti sacca) refers to what is 'real' in a conventional or "ordinary' sense of the word 'true'" For example, conventionally it's true that we type on a computer and sit at a table or desk. It's true that there are people around us and that you're called Dieter and I'm called Sarah. The Buddha continued to use 'conventional truths' - we cannot communicate without them. We use such language with or without any understanding of underlying "absolute truths". Mundane right view (samma di.t.thi), referred to above, has little if anything to do with conventional truths. 4. Absolute truths (paramattha sacca) refers to what is 'real' in an absolute/ultimate sense of the word 'true'. Regardless of the terms or language used, regardless of whether there are Buddha's Teachings to be heard, regardless of whether there's any understanding of those Teachings, it remains true that there are only ever conditioned dhammas, naamas and ruupas, arising and falling away and the unconditioned dhamma, nibbaana which doesn't arise and fall away. It is these absolute dhammas that lokiya (and in the case of nibbaana, lokuttara) sammaa di.t.thi penetrate. Metta Sarah ====== #122557 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:47 pm Subject: Re: KK discussions - was: Unsubscribing rjkjp1 wow nice video. I clicked on the one you gave sarha and then found one with nina and khun sujin, and peter swan (died three years ago) , sukin is there too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkvgmKYO30k robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Lukas & all, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > > A couple of good reminders. Where can I find more Acharn Sujin talks from January? > ... > S: I'm afraid you'll have to wait patiently to listen to the audio. I did send some notes from the Bkk discussion at the time here (try searching 'sujin bangkok 2012 discussions) and have been meaning to add a few more (relating to points that have been raised here) in KK, but not done so yet (and no notes). You'll also have seen I've been transcribing a few brief comments. > A friend, Tom, who was at KK sent me this link to some video he made of part of a discussion: > http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBBE3E35A4C9D5237 > I don't know if this will work for you and, to be honest, I've only watched a very small part so far. I meant to send the link before. I had no idea he was filming and would have sat somewhere else if I'd known:). > > We're working on the editing and uploading of the excellent audio from last March in KK - did you find the ones uploaded so far (not completed)? If so, why not share some of the comments you find inspiring? > > Thx for sharing your discussions with Luraya. I'm glad she also finds the study and careful reflection of the Dhamma useful. > > Metta > > Sarah > ==== > #122558 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the threefold training. nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 13-feb-2012, om 17:32 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > sorry to learn that you lost a family member .. > Please take any time convenient for you to comment the points of > interest . --------- N: Thank you for your sympathy. It was the husband of Lodewijk's late sister. There were many anecdotes from the past. This reminded me of a passage from a recording with Kh Sujin I just heard: ---------- > > > D: sorry ,I probably missed something .. which text you are > revising /quoting from? ------ N: A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Kh Sujin. Nina. #122559 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 moellerdieter Dear Sarah, ) D:a good and necessary topic to discuss : the mundane and the supramundane right understanding/view , because it concerns as well > the issue of the conventional world and the world of conditioned dhammas, both true within their domain , relative to the view . > As I understand some members deny the reality of the mundane /conventional world , claiming the only truth is the reality of the world of dhammas.. > looking forward to talk about ... ... S: I'm wondering if there's some misunderstanding between mundane/supramundane right view on the one hand and absolute truths/conventional truths on the other? It seems that you may be conflating mundane view and conventional truths? D: is there any ? It is understanding which determines our view of the world and so is the language . Conventíonal is the personal encounter , our lifestory , mother , father , consequences of action, etc. which the Buddha called mundane right understanding /view. (Just to briefly summarise the terms as used by some of us and in the texts as I understand them: 1. Mundane right view (lokiya sammaa di.t.thi) refers to the sammaa di.t.thi of the path which is not supramundane (lokuttara samma di.t.thi). Usually, such as in MN 117, it is satipa.t.thaana/vipassanaa that is being referred to. It is not "conventional understanding" or the "conventional world" that is being referred to. The objects of (lokiya) samma di.t.thi (mundane right view) in these contexts are always paramattha dhammas, i.e naamas and ruupas, one at a time. D: the view of the householder , of the laity is refered to , their conventional understanding. Please compare: " And what is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are brahmans & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions. " "And what is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, the path factor of right view of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path." ' a factor of the path' , the supramundane path of Noble Ones (approach by the mundane Noble Path , i.e. the training towards it (sila, samadhi ,panna) By 'analysis of qualities ' ..qualities of what? the qualities of the 6 senses media I assume (I wonder whether the Pali word indicates another context) Satipatthana is without doubt important ...we may however not neglect the beginning of the sutta: I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. There he addressed the monks: "Monks!" "Yes, lord," the monks replied. The Blessed One said, "Monks, I will teach you noble right concentration with its supports and requisite conditions. Listen, and pay close attention. I will speak." "Yes, lord," the monks replied. The Blessed One said: "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors - right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness - is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions. [1] "Of those, right view is the forerunner ..... 2. Supramundane right view (lokuttara sammaa di.t.thi) refers to the sammaa di.t.thi of the path at the moments of enlightenment. At these moments of path consciousness (magga citta) and fruition consciousness (phaala citta), the object is always nibbaana. These cittas are "supra" or outside the ordinary realm of consciousness. It is said "a factor for Awakening, the path factor of right view of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble ..." , i.e. developing , not yet developed as at the moment of enlightenment , the Noble Ones before Arahantship. Yes their object is nibbana . I assume like you that their states of mind is different from the the wordling (not excluding having glanced) 3. Conventional truths (sammuti sacca) refers to what is 'real' in a conventional or "ordinary' sense of the word 'true'" For example, conventionally it's true that we type on a computer and sit at a table or desk. It's true that there are people around us and that you're called Dieter and I'm called Sarah. The Buddha continued to use 'conventional truths' - we cannot communicate without them. We use such language with or without any understanding of underlying "absolute truths". Mundane right view (samma di.t.thi), referred to above, has little if anything to do with conventional truths. D:language is part of that .. as I mentioned there is a wordly right view ( nibbana not the object) , not part of the (supramundane) Noble Path. 4. Absolute truths (paramattha sacca) refers to what is 'real' in an absolute/ultimate sense of the word 'true'. Regardless of the terms or language used, regardless of whether there are Buddha's Teachings to be heard, regardless of whether there's any understanding of those Teachings, it remains true that there are only ever conditioned dhammas, naamas and ruupas, arising and falling away and the unconditioned dhamma, nibbaana which doesn't arise and fall away. It is these absolute dhammas that lokiya (and in the case of nibbaana, lokuttara) sammaa di.t.thi penetrate. D: I do not object .. (though I see Nibbana being the Ultimate Truth , Paramattha Sacca absolute within samsara..) with Metta Dieter #122560 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:08 am Subject: Re: KK discussions - was: Unsubscribing szmicio Dear Robert, Isn't it nice? So nice to see our teacher. Best wishes Lukas > wow nice video. I clicked on the one you gave sarha and then found one with nina and khun sujin, and peter swan (died three years ago) , sukin is there too. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkvgmKYO30k > robert #122561 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:26 am Subject: Letter from Luraya to our friend Lukas in prison szmicio Dear friends, This is a letter, from few weeks, that Luraya wrote to our friend Lukas that stays in prison. I saw Lukas in October 2011, he's doing well, reading buddhist books and asking how to start practising. Luraya's letter: < Hej Lukas! hmm...how to start this letter!? Write to a person you just have heard talking about :D I've only heard good things, beside the fact that you sleep with open eyes ;D and that we have the same eyes but yours are more blue... It's so nice to hear that you are interested in meditation, buddhism and start practising the technique! I think it's so nice and strong of you to have that wish and I'm sure it will help you a lot! But I am not sure if I am the right person to explain....well, I will give it a try and do my best :D The technique which leads to deep concentration and helps you to focus and give you a clearer mind which will help you in day to day life is called anapana. It will give you inner peace and it is the meditation which prepares you for vipassana. Mastery over the mind is very helpfull because you will be able to act calmly and in a wise way in many situations. how to practice anpana... find a comfortable posture where you keep your back and neck straight and close your eyes (before that put an alarm clock for 30 minutes). Now start focusing your attention on the breath. Incoming breath, the outgoing breath as it happens naturally. You will find that your mind is wandering away again and again. It doesnt matter. Bring your attention back similingly to the breath. It might seem boring and hard in the beginning especially if you are practising on your own. But if you work patientlly you will probably get wonderful results. When you have observed that natural breath for all in all several hours you might start to be able to feel the touch of the breath in the nostrils and at the entrance of the nostrils or under the nostrils. Start to observe the touch of your breath. Ana-pana meditation helps me a lot when I feel anger arising. then I can start focusing on my breath, observe how it goes faster, let it pass and not let the anger take over. i think explaining all this on a paper is quite hard, but i am sure Lukas can help you too! How long to you have you stay in prison?! Is there any possibility for you to take a meditation course? Can you watch movies? Maybe Lukas can bring you Dhamma-movies which explain more and are more living than my words on a piece of paper!? I send you a lot of strenght, good wishes and willpower with your practice! All the best!Hugs! and may you shine from the inside!! Peace, harmony and hapiness! The door to happiness is opened to the inside :D Luraya p.s Tell me more about you! What matters in your inside, how is your life and does it work to practice? > Best wishes Lukas #122562 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:28 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna truth_aerator Hello Phil, all, >P:...that by meditating one can sit and see desires come and go, >=============== I'd like to rephrase that as "by observing present moment one can see dhammas and their nature thus developing more and more understanding that will eventually uproot the defilements" >P: but my point is that one fails to see just how deep and pervasive >lobha is.... >====================================================== Only by deeper and deeper observation and reflection can this be seen. Of course if someone settles only on the surface level than it is fault of that person rather than meditation itself. It is not fault of the tool that someone misused it. As if in daily life neyya can go deep enough for such kind of insight. With metta, Alex #122563 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] the threefold training. moellerdieter Dear Nina, N: Thank you for your sympathy. It was the husband of Lodewijk's late sister. There were many anecdotes from the past. D: there is a nice tradition that a minister /or friend reminds about that at the funeral . Must be wonderful when there is an opportunity just before death .. NThis reminded me of a passage from a recording with Kh Sujin I just heard: ---------- D: I think , she meant that in a context when we are ignorant or annoyed. Nothing unwholesome in recalling joyful moments , when a friend passed away. This may be helpful to overcome a state of dosa. Another point is the training, contemplation of the reality now where the person is seen as a process of conditioned dhammas.. The past is gone .. but without memory of our life story (previous kamma) , the world becomes chaotic. One of my best friends is developing Alzheimer , piece by piece of the past gets lost. Very sad ... obiously an increasing problem of our society . > D: sorry ,I probably missed something .. which text you are > revising /quoting from? ------ N: A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Kh Sujin. D: I supposed so .. ;-) it is her angle to see the Path .. different types different approaches (e.g. MN 117 where the links are related to samma samadhi , i.e. Jhana) I think the 84000 headings of the Dhamma suits ' jeder nach seiner Facon ' (Beginning of this year we were reminded on the 200 th birthday of Friedrich der Große (Frederick the 2nd. ) , a very exceptional king in German history, who's motto 'jeder nach seiner Facon .. ' (let everyman seek heaven in his own fashion) ' is so much missed in our contemporary world, isn't it? ) with Metta Dieter #122564 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:25 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna epsteinrob Hi Alex. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello RobertE, all, > > >RE:This particular point surprised me and does seem confusing. I am >waiting to hear about how right concentration is to be developed but >is already present in each citta. > >==================== > > I wonder about that as well. Apparently with every wholesome state > there is already "right concentration". It is said in Dhs (PTS 9). > > Reading the Suttas, it is obvious that the Buddha did encourage long and hard development of the path that can last more than split second. So for some people "split second kusala" is too short and too weak to pin all one's hopes on. I often agree with you on these issues, but on this one I think we should distinguish between the accumulation of kusala, and the way in which kusala is said to arise in the moment. There is no doubt among any Buddhists, whether they follow the Abhidhamma or not, that all experience takes place in the present moment, and that sentient existence takes place, however we define "a moment," one moment at a time. The nonexistence of past and future as present realities is probably one of the most universal Buddhist principles. So if we do have kusala qualities arise, they will arise in the present moment only. I also think that everyone agrees that as kusala accumulates, there are more moments when it arises, and I think many will agree that they will then frequently occur for a longer "string" of moments, in which one will have the experience of kusala unbroken for a longer period of time. As purification arises through the path, akusala will rise less frequently and less vehemently and with less influence. I don't think there's any disagreement about that - I could be wrong. Certain kusala cetasikas become "powers" when they reach a certain strength of accumulation, which means that they are available just about all the time. So I don't think anyone is saying that kusala only arises for a single moment, and that somehow we have to "bank" on a tiny drop of kusala to provide the path. But the question of how kusala does arise in the moment is an interesting one; and the question of how greater accumulations of kusala lead to longer spates of kusala moments arising so that the path progresses is also very interesting, and important. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #122565 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:31 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Alex, Phil, (Rob E.), > > A: "Apparently even when one is restless one is still one-pointed on one object..." > > Me: "What motivates someone to keep posting for years on a list which espouses views he has never agreed with?" ... > Scott: No, it's the motivation for the ongoing need to oppose I wonder about. I'm just curious. I don't consider a question such as mine to be politically incorrect at all. It is personal, none the less. > Just asking. Just curious. If certain views are shown to be in error constantly then why constantly bring them up? I think the answer is obvious - the person who keeps bringing them up disagrees with the predominant view and is advocating for what they think is correct. So it goes to whether one believes this is a group that is founded on agreement, or founded on working through, discussing and debating issues that are contentious. It's true if certain people weren't here there wouldn't be contention over those issues, but the people who are here are here because they have a desire to participate in these topics, and if there is contention there is no final authority to say that one's interpretation is totally correct and the other is totally incorrect. >Surely the desire to learn has long since been extinguished. That is presumptuous. One may be unconvinced and still continue to learn. One doesn't have to agree with a commonly held belief in order to learn. > Is it a desire to preach? To simply oppose? Is it a secret wish to be able to see it the right way? One shouldn't assume that the way they see it is the right way, if there is in fact an intention to learn on all sides. No one is guaranteed to be 100% correct. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #122566 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:43 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Jon, > > J: "...at a general (Dhamma) level..." > > Scott: I am referring to the view, Jon. I am referring to the Dhamma level. Momentary concentration is being disputed, and is repeatedly disputed, as being irrelevant. Views that have it, for example, that momentary concentration is enough have been communicated over and over again. I think that this is correct. You think that this is correct. I've read you to assert this time and time again. I get it. I agree each time. When opposing views are communicated time and again, as if nothing ever has been addressed, I ask what it is that motivates this constant negating. This isn't about people, it's about dhammas. What are they? People are entitled to whatever view they have. You are free to continue to dispute it if you think they are wrong. Nothing to stop you from arguing the view on the merits and hoping the other person will eventually "see the light." But they also have a right to continue to disagree. It's not necessary to talk about "what makes this person keep doing x..." in order to argue the issue at hand. And since it has devolved into really bitter commentary a number of times we've been asked to keep it on the original Dhamma issue and not criticize other people in a personal way. People are having discussions. They may just be saying things that you don't like, but that doesn't have to stop you or anyone from continuing to promote what you think is correct. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = #122567 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:43 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna truth_aerator Hello RobertE, When it comes to moments. We can say that long development is when there is a long unbroken series of kusala. The point is that for less-than-gifted people, one split second moment of kusala amidst thousands of moments of akusala - is not that powerful (unless one is Ugghatitannu or Vipancitannu). It seems to me more like "one step forward, two steps back" rather than long and hard "progress". It is much better, IMHO, to practice for two moments of kusala per one moment of akusala, and eventually a better ratio. The point of my message was that it is unrealistic to pin all one's hopes on split second accumulations of kusala vs 100x akusala accumulations. It also seems to me that often "not to do kusala for some people can result in akusala" IMHO. With best wishes, Alex #122568 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:09 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna kenhowardau Hi Robert E and Alex, ------------ >> RE:This particular point surprised me and does seem confusing. I am >waiting to hear about how right concentration is to be developed but >is already present in each citta. >> > A: I wonder about that as well. Apparently with every wholesome state there is already "right concentration". It is said in Dhs (PTS 9). ------------ KH: It's a good question – no matter how frequently it is asked. :-) To give a conventional simile: a sniper has strong concentration when he is looking down the sights of a rifle, doesn't he? And a surgeon has strong concentration when he is performing a delicate operation. So what is the difference between those two concentrations? Apart from the fact that one arises in the course of an inhumane act, while the other arises in the course of humane act? Is there any difference in the concentration itself? Ken H #122569 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:06 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna epsteinrob Hi Alex. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello RobertE, > > When it comes to moments. We can say that long development is when there is a long unbroken series of kusala. > > The point is that for less-than-gifted people, one split second moment of kusala amidst thousands of moments of akusala - is not that powerful (unless one is Ugghatitannu or Vipancitannu). It seems to me more like "one step forward, two steps back" rather than long and hard "progress". > > It is much better, IMHO, to practice for two moments of kusala per one moment of akusala, and eventually a better ratio. > > The point of my message was that it is unrealistic to pin all one's hopes on split second accumulations of kusala vs 100x akusala accumulations. It also seems to me that often > "not to do kusala for some people can result in akusala" How do you deal with the objection that the intention to purposefully cultivate kusala is an act of self-view, thinking that you can control the arising of kusala, rather than it taking place through conditionality? Do you think it is possible to cultivate kusala through meditation and other means without a sense of personal control? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - #122570 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:11 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Robert E and Alex, > > ------------ > >> RE:This particular point surprised me and does seem confusing. I am >waiting to hear about how right concentration is to be developed but >is already present in each citta. > >> > > > A: I wonder about that as well. Apparently with every wholesome state > there is already "right concentration". It is said in Dhs (PTS 9). > ------------ > > KH: It's a good question – no matter how frequently it is asked. :-) > > To give a conventional simile: a sniper has strong concentration when he is looking down the sights of a rifle, doesn't he? And a surgeon has strong concentration when he is performing a delicate operation. > > So what is the difference between those two concentrations? Apart from the fact that one arises in the course of an inhumane act, while the other arises in the course of humane act? > > Is there any difference in the concentration itself? I would say that no matter how strong the concentration, there is a difference between "concentration" as a factor and "right concentration." "Right concentration" has to be a path factor, and akusala never produces the path, if I am correct... If there is an intention to do harm, etc., which would create akusala kamma patha, the concentration that serves that intention, it seems to me, could not be kusala. The question is whether kusala can arise to serve akusala. I think not, but I'm not sure what the real answer is. If there is akusala cetana causing akusala kamma patha, as in your sniper with the rifle intending to kill, I think the cetasika that accompanies that should be akusala. And even if it were kusala, it would not be "right concentration" which is beyond ordinary kusala concentration. Is this wrong? In addition, the thornier question for me is why concentration would have to be cultivated if it is already there in every citta. Is it a question of degree, as with sati and panna? Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #122571 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:21 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna truth_aerator Hello RobertE, >How do you deal with the objection that the intention to purposefully >cultivate kusala is an act of self-view, >======== In that case, *any* action would be developing Self view and thus there would be no way out short of dropping motionless and thoughtless like a log of wood. Yet somehow living ordinary daily life isn't criticized... What a double standard. If intentional action would promote Self View (and can you act without intentions in daily life?), then Buddha would have talked about it. There is no sutta that teaches this. Rather we have countless of suttas praising intentional effort to develop and strengthen kusala and remove akusala. With best wishes, Alex #122572 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:36 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna truth_aerator Hello KenH, >KH: To give a conventional simile: a sniper has strong >concentration... >================================================= In the cases of sniper for example, the concentration is on a target with the desire to kill. Obviously lots of akusala is involved. Samma-samadhi is done as part of N8P and without akusala at that period of time. With best wishes, Alex #122573 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:06 pm Subject: Short on "no-control" truth_aerator Hello RobertE, all, Here is another thing: The Buddha has never said that "there is no self". In SN44.10 The Buddha refused to claim that "self doesn't exist" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn44/sn44.010.than.html Anatta teaching deals with emperic reality where 5 aggregates are not-Self. It doesn't go into metaphysics. Also the Buddha has never said anything like: "Since there is no Self, there is no control". In MN#2 the speculations about Self/No-Self are said to be inappropriate reflections and that one should contemplate 4NT instead. So this sidesteps various philosophical problems that may arise. With best wishes, Alex #122574 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:35 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "...In addition, the thornier question for me is why concentration would have to be cultivated if it is already there in every citta. Is it a question of degree, as with sati and panna?..." Scott: There is no need to 'cultivate' concentration. When it arises with sati and pa~n~naa it is already is right concentration. No need to elevate it to some sort of mystical status. And 'cultivation' of kusala concentration occurs when kusala arises - independent of wanting it to arise and trying to make it arise for sure. Scott. #122575 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:20 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna scottduncan2 Jon, J: "Different folks have different ways of discussing..." Scott: Fair enough. I guess I'm just tired of it. Scott. #122576 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:39 pm Subject: Re: Short on "no-control" scottduncan2 Alex, A: "... In MN#2 the speculations about Self/No-Self are said to be inappropriate reflections and that one should contemplate 4NT instead..." Scott: Cool. Like being in a museum. A modern-day Puggalavaadin. Awesome. Scptt. #122577 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:11 pm Subject: Re: Short on "no-control" truth_aerator Scott, > A: "... In MN#2 the speculations about Self/No-Self are said to be >inappropriate reflections and that one should contemplate 4NT >instead..." > >Scott: Cool. Like being in a museum. A modern-day Puggalavaadin. >Awesome. >=============================== Is MN#2 obsolete or wrong? "18. "That person considers improperly thus: 'Did I exist in the past? Did I not exist in the past? Who was I in the past? How was I in the past?[15] In the past, who had been I and who was I [in the subsequent existence]? Will I exist in the future? Will I not exist in the future? Who will I be in the future? How will I be in the future? In the future, having been who, who will I be?' "Also as regards the present, uncertainty arises in him thus: 'Do I exist? Do I not exist? Who am I? How am I ? From where has this soul come? Where will this soul go?'" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.002.bpit.html Please note:"I did not exist in the past... I will not exist in the future...Do I not exist? etc" are all counted as improper consideration. The proper consideration does NOT contain "I do not exist". Rather than focus on metaphysical duality of existence/non-existence It focuses on totally differnet way of looking at thing, through 4NT. With best wishes, Alex #122578 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:24 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna epsteinrob Hi Alex. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello RobertE, > > >How do you deal with the objection that the intention to purposefully >cultivate kusala is an act of self-view, > >======== > > In that case, *any* action would be developing Self view and thus there would be no way out short of dropping motionless and thoughtless like a log of wood. Yet somehow living ordinary daily life isn't criticized... What a double standard. > > If intentional action would promote Self View (and can you act without intentions in daily life?), then Buddha would have talked about it. There is no sutta that teaches this. Rather we have countless of suttas praising intentional effort to develop and strengthen kusala and remove akusala. I think the idea is not that we should drop all intentional action - it is specifically wrong view to think that intentional actions can lead to kusala, not that intentional actions are bad for everyday living. As for the praising of intentional action to develop the path - I agree with you that it was promoted by the Buddha as well as Buddhaghosa. I don't agree with the argument that these were just descriptions and not meant to be followed up. But I do understand that the structure of reality only takes place through conditionality, and so the way in which intentional actions should be taken up is still an interesting question. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = #122579 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:27 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., > > R: "...In addition, the thornier question for me is why concentration would have to be cultivated if it is already there in every citta. Is it a question of degree, as with sati and panna?..." > > Scott: There is no need to 'cultivate' concentration. When it arises with sati and pa~n~naa it is already is right concentration. No need to elevate it to some sort of mystical status. And 'cultivation' of kusala concentration occurs when kusala arises - independent of wanting it to arise and trying to make it arise for sure. I don't understand the idea that right concentration is already there in every citta. Rob E. = = = = = = = #122580 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:15 pm Subject: Re: Short on "no-control" scottduncan2 Alex, A: "... It focuses on totally differnet way of looking at thing, through 4NT." Scott: Which is what? (Dare I ask?) Scott. #122581 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:09 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti ptaus1 Hi Scott, > > > Me: "I recently posted a transcription of a discussion with A. Sujin in which she notes that pariyatti is 'kusala thinking with pa~n~naa.' See the first post in this thread. Do you agree that concepts *do not* arise and fall?" > > > >pt: "...Don't know. I can agree that's the generally accepted interpretation of the texts here..." > > Scott: How do *you* see it then? Not sure I can add anything new to what I've already said in the thread. Perhaps like this - in terms of mind-door processes with 2 variables of interest - panna and object, there seem to be three possibilities that relate to the topic: 1. panna present, (nimitta of) a dhamma as object - this can be classified as insight/vipassana. 2. panna present, concept as object - this can be classified as pariyatti, noting that concepts relate to dhammas. 3. panna not present, concept as object - this is neither vipassana, nor pariyatti, though still can be kusala or akusala (e.g. metta towards a being - kusala, or, thinking with lobha - akusala). Plus, in this category we have a theoretically interesting sub-category of - thinking about dhamma without any panna - can this ever be kusala? I don't think so, but I'm not sure. In all of the above, in the cases that pertain to vipassana and pariyatti, I see no possibility where panna is preoccupied with the issue of whether concepts arise and fall, nor whether concepts exist or not. So, it seems this issue is a matter of post-facto speculation, deduction, logic, etc, which no-doubt can be useful in explaining what a dhamma is/not, as much as it can be confusing of course, etc. Then again, I might be wrong in taking the second category of pariyatti in too narrow a manner - i.e. perhaps it's not just thinking about dhammas with panna, but also thinking about concepts with panna. Don't know. Either way, I'm still not sure what exactly does it mean when people say that "panna can tell the difference between a dhamma and a concept". Is it a sort of knowledge that kind of happens by default when a dhamma is known? Or can panna actually tell when the object is a dhamma, and when it is a concept? But then, if a concept is known by panna, doesn't that sort of makes the concept knowable in the sense of having characateristics (like a dhamma does) by which it is known? Here logic sort of brakes down and I don't get it anymore. Best wishes pt #122582 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:42 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna ptaus1 Hi RobE (Alex, all), > I don't understand the idea that right concentration is already there in every citta. There's a bit of misreading/misunderstanding in the above statement/idea: afaik, there is concentration with every citta, but it is not necessarily right concentration every time. Concentration can be right (and kusala), kusala (but not right), and akusala, depending on the citta. So, concentration always accompanies the citta, but it is not always right concentration because not every citta is a path moment. Some cittas are kusala, some are akusala, some are path moments (and of course, some are kiriya cittas, some are vipaka cittas, etc, but we're not concerned with these now). Accordingly the concentration will vary - be kusala, aksuala, right, etc. Perhaps it'll help going over the fundamentals once again, before tackling more complex issues of development, intentional action, etc. Afaik, according to abhidhamma: 1. every citta arises with a number of cetasikas 2. every citta arises with ekaggata cetasika, among others. "Ekaggata" is translated as concentration, one-pointedness, etc, but it is not necessarily "right concentration". 3. concentration (as a cetasika) is variable by classification. This means that it will be kusala, akusala or right depending on other cetasikas that accompany the citta. 4. if the citta is accompanied by akusala root cetasikas (moha, dosa, lobha), then the citta will also be accompanied by akusala concentration. 5. if the citta is accompanied by kusala root cetasikas (adosa, alobha, amoha), then the citta will also be accompanied by kusala concentration. 6. if the citta is accompanied by kusala root cetasikas (adosa, alobha, amoha), AND, amoha(panna) is of insight strength, then the citta will also be accompanied by "right" concentration (which is also kusala at the same time, but more importantly it is "right" in terms of the eightfold path - ciita is a path moment - because panna is of vipassana kind/strenght). These I think are the fundamentals, and I hope I didn't make a mistake. Please let me know if this is clear, and if so, then we can move towards discussing more complex issues like what is development of kusala, what is development of the eightfold path, what is yoga, what is meditation, what is sniper's concentration, what is jhana, etc. Best wishes pt #122583 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:54 pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? Part 1 jonoabb Hi Alex (122473) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Jon, > > >J: Any textual support for the idea that the Buddha described a >path >to be *followed*? To my recollection, the texts describe the >NEP as a >path that is to be *developed*. > >================================== > > A: In countless of suttas and in VsM there are plenty of statements that describe what to do. The Buddha described the path to us. > =============== J: I agree that the Buddha described the path. But I think that, properly understood, what is described by the Buddha as the path is not 'what to do', but 'what happens'. In other words, it's a description of the mental states and stages involved. > =============== > A: In Satipatthana sutta it does tell us that: > There is the case where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building — sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.html > > What do you think it describes in MN10? > =============== J: The extract you've quoted here sets out a particular case, namely, the case of the monk in whom samatha and vipassana are already well developed. It does not contain the teaching being imparted by the sutta. That teaching is found in the passage that follows, beginning: "He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.' … when breathing in long, [the monk] discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long' ..". We could look at that part if you'd like to. But the bit you've quoted here is merely introductory. > =============== > A: And in plenty of suttas the Buddha recommended: > > "And what more is to be done? There is the case where a monk seeks out a secluded dwelling: a forest, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html > =============== J: This is another introductory passage which sets out a particular case. It does not contain the teaching for which the sutta is being given. That teaching is found in the part that follows, beginning: "Abandoning covetousness with regard to the world, he dwells with an awareness devoid of covetousness. …". As with the MN10 extract, we could discuss that part of the sutta if you'd care. > =============== > A: "Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will relentlessly exert ourselves, [thinking,] "Gladly would we let the flesh & blood in our bodies dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, but if we have not attained what can be reached through human firmness, human persistence, human striving, there will be no relaxing our persistence."' That's how you should train yourselves." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.005.than.html > =============================================================== > > It clearly describes a path that needs to happen. To say otherwise, would be a contradiction of suttas and VsM. > =============== J: I think this sutta (AN 2.5) describes the importance of kusala viriya and the need for it to become constant ('relentless' in this translation, 'unremitting' in the BB translation). The 'training' being described is the resolution that viriya should become both continuous ("We will relentlessly exert ourselves") and firm ("Gladly would we let … there will be no relaxing our persistence."). These are the mind-states of the person who understands clearly at an intellectual level (pariyatti) the importance of the mental factor of viriya in the development of the path. This intellectual understanding must of course be based on accumulated (developed) awareness, and can only come about when awareness has been developed to the appropriate level. In my view, the text is not suggesting that you and I should do something in order to have more awareness, nor that we should repeat these words as a kind of mantra. > =============== > A: It is a description of the path. It doesn't include "any place is the right place". > =============== J: Agreed that the passage does not say that "any place is the right place"; but neither does it say that place has any importance/relevance. As I see it, what is being described here applies regardless of circumstances or place. Jon #122584 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the threefold training. nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 14-feb-2012, om 18:39 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > I think the 84000 headings of the Dhamma suits ' jeder nach seiner > Facon ' > (Beginning of this year we were reminded on the 200 th birthday of > Friedrich der Große (Frederick the 2nd. ) , a very exceptional king > in German > history, who's motto 'jeder nach seiner Facon .. ' (let everyman > seek heaven in his own fashion) ' is so much missed in our > contemporary world, isn't it? ) ------ N: This reminds me of Sarah's mother who said: everyone has his way and Sarah repeated this. The way we think is all according to our accumulated inclinations. -------- D: quotes Survey: ---------- D: I think , she meant that in a context when we are ignorant or annoyed. ------- N: Not only then. Each moment this can be realized. Is it not true that 'my personality ' of the past is no more? Perhaps this is not so difficult to understand . --------- D: Nothing unwholesome in recalling joyful moments , when a friend passed away. This may be helpful to overcome a state of dosa. ------ N:It depends on the citta, often likely to be with attachment. But remembrance and appreciation of a person's good deeds can be with anumodana daana. ------- D: Another point is the training, contemplation of the reality now where the person is seen as a process of conditioned dhammas.. ------- N: One doorway at a time, one object at a time as it presents itself. That is training, sikkha. It is momentary. It cannot be planned what object appears at a certain moment. In this way it can be seen that dhammas are anattaa, beyond control, but it is a very, very gradual process. ----- Nina. #122585 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:24 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna truth_aerator Hello RobertE, >I think the idea is not that we should drop all intentional action >- >it is specifically wrong view to think that intentional actions >can >lead to kusala, not that intentional actions are bad for >everyday >living. >================================ Of course intention can be kusala or akusala. It is not fault of meditation if a person misuses it, just like it is not fault of the tool if someone misuses it. Not all practices involve have to involve wrong view. With best wishes, Alex #122586 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:25 am Subject: Re: Short on "no-control" truth_aerator Scott, all, >A: "... It focuses on totally differnet way of looking at thing, >through 4NT." > >Scott: Which is what? (Dare I ask?) >========================== Analysis in terms of dukkha, its origin, its cessation and the path leading to its cessation. Alex #122587 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:42 am Subject: Re: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? Part 1 truth_aerator Hello Jon, all, >J:I agree that the Buddha described the path. And for what purpose He describes the path? >In other words, it's a description of the mental states and stages >involved. And this description is about what occurs when one follows the path. should be done. The suttas are clear, so is VsM. >J:The extract you've quoted here sets out a particular case, >namely, the case of the monk in whom samatha and vipassana are >already well developed. >============== Where does it state that? Why would the Buddha keep teaching something irrelevant to us? Why doesn't the sutta say that "it is particular case of Bhikkhu named such and such". With best wishes, Alex #122588 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:56 am Subject: Re: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? Part 1 truth_aerator Hello Jon, all, 1) According to Comy, merely hearing and considering dhamma works only for Ugghatitannu and Vipancitannu. 2)We are no longer them. Only neyya, padaparama remain. 3) Neyya needs to engage in actual Practice (as opposed to mere listening and considering) to reach Sotapanna. "An individual of the Neyya class can become a Sotpanna in this present life, if he faithfully practises the bodhipakkhiya-dhamma comprising satipatthana (four Applications of Mindfulness), sammapadhana (Right Exertion), etc. If he is lax in his practice, he can become a Sotapanna only in his next existence after being reborn in the deva planes. If he dies while still aloof from these (bodhipakkhiya-Dhammas) he will become a total loss so far as the present Buddha Sasana is concerned, but he can still attain release from worldly ills if he encounters the Sasana of the next Buddha." http://www.thisismyanmar.com/nibbana/individu.htm With best wishes, Alex #122589 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] the threefold training. moellerdieter Dear Nina, you wrote: ------ N: This reminds me of Sarah's mother who said: everyone has his way and Sarah repeated this. The way we think is all according to our accumulated inclinations. -------- D: I agree , previous kamma ...must be a huge account each of us carries and what we all add. It may be interesting to get an overview how the types- relevant in the sense of Dhamma - are described and trying to get an idea whether we can identify the 'character' . Perhaps next topic after cetasika , ' Puggalapannatti in daily life ';-) D: quotes Survey: ---------- D: I think , she meant that in a context when we are ignorant or annoyed.------- N: Not only then. Each moment this can be realized. Is it not true that 'my personality ' of the past is no more? Perhaps this is not so difficult to understand . D: One can understand the personality as the way of action, which is- as you say - " all according to our accumulated inclinations ". Who will deny that there is a pattern of habits , some useful/wholesome, some unwholesome . Kama tanha can be / is a strong addiction , very difficult to avoid the tendency of attachment . True , each moment can realized , assumed one follows the training , e.g. as you quoted "The development of satipaììhåna is a threefold raining (sikkhå): training in higher morality, adhisíla sikkhå, training in higher consciousness, adhicitta sikkhå,training in higher wisdom, adhipaññå sikkhå.When sati is aware of the realities that are appearing, there is higher síla, síla that is more refined. Sati is aware of he characteristics of citta, cetasika and rúpa. It is aware of kusala dhammas and akusala dhammas before actions hrough the body or through speech arise.." snip The understanding must be translated into training , making the condition possible that the realization of things as they truly are is not only one spark in the darkness. --------- D: Nothing unwholesome in recalling joyful moments , when a friend passed away. This may be helpful to overcome a state of dosa. ------ N:It depends on the citta, often likely to be with attachment. But remembrance and appreciation of a person's good deeds can be with anumodana daana. ------- D: Another point is the training, contemplation of the reality now where the person is seen as a process of conditioned dhammas.. ------- N: One doorway at a time, one object at a time as it presents itself. That is training, sikkha. It is momentary. It cannot be planned what object appears at a certain moment. In this way it can be seen that dhammas are anattaa, beyond control, but it is a very, very gradual process. D: yes , it is ...the arising of objects is beyond planning what we can influence is our attachment towards it . Ven. Nyanaponika pointed out the necessity to keep the interrelation of objects in mind , there is y not only a single object within the stream of consciousness which may be concluded by static analysis. I think in practise there is a foreground of a special object, usually the one of the strongest sensation with a background of the softer ones. Training , in particular right effort as preparation of right mindfulness will allow the choice of attention. with Metta Dieter #122590 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:50 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "I don't understand the idea that right concentration is already there in every citta." Scott: That's because this is not correct. Concentration is with each moment - it functions in each moment as it does; it's not 'right' every time. Not all moments of consciousness are kusala, nor are all kusala moments of consciousness satipa.t.thaana. No need to place concentration on a pedestal nor chase after it. Dhammasa"nga.ni: "What on that occasion is self-collectedness (citass' ekagataa)? The stability, solidity, absorbed steadfastness of thought, which that occasion is the absence of distraction, balance, unperturbed mental procedure, quiet, the faculty and power of concentration,right concentration - this is the self-collectedness that there then is [referring to kusala citta]." Scott: The description of this mental factor is the same for when it arises with akusala citta, except that 'wrong concentration' is used in place of 'right concentration.' No big deal. Just a mental factor with characteristic and function. Atthasaalinii: "...This concentration, known as one-pointedness of mind, has non-scattering (of itself) or non-distraction (of associated states) as characteristic, the welding together of coexistent states as function...and peace of mind or knowledge as manifestation...It is distinguished by having ease as proximate cause. Like the steadiness of the flame of a lamp in the absence of wind..." Scott: This is all it does in each moment. Scott. #122591 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:16 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti scottduncan2 pt, pt: "Not sure I can add anything new to what I've already said..." Scott: Except whether or not you consider a concept to have some sort of 'reality.' Scott. #122592 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:46 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna epsteinrob Hi pt. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi RobE (Alex, all), > > > I don't understand the idea that right concentration is already there in every citta. > > There's a bit of misreading/misunderstanding in the above statement/idea: afaik, there is concentration with every citta, but it is not necessarily right concentration every time. > > Concentration can be right (and kusala), kusala (but not right), and akusala, depending on the citta. So, concentration always accompanies the citta, but it is not always right concentration because not every citta is a path moment. Some cittas are kusala, some are akusala, some are path moments (and of course, some are kiriya cittas, some are vipaka cittas, etc, but we're not concerned with these now). Accordingly the concentration will vary - be kusala, aksuala, right, etc. > > Perhaps it'll help going over the fundamentals once again, before tackling more complex issues of development, intentional action, etc. > > Afaik, according to abhidhamma: > > 1. every citta arises with a number of cetasikas > 2. every citta arises with ekaggata cetasika, among others. "Ekaggata" is translated as concentration, one-pointedness, etc, but it is not necessarily "right concentration". > 3. concentration (as a cetasika) is variable by classification. This means that it will be kusala, akusala or right depending on other cetasikas that accompany the citta. > 4. if the citta is accompanied by akusala root cetasikas (moha, dosa, lobha), then the citta will also be accompanied by akusala concentration. > 5. if the citta is accompanied by kusala root cetasikas (adosa, alobha, amoha), then the citta will also be accompanied by kusala concentration. > 6. if the citta is accompanied by kusala root cetasikas (adosa, alobha, amoha), AND, amoha(panna) is of insight strength, then the citta will also be accompanied by "right" concentration (which is also kusala at the same time, but more importantly it is "right" in terms of the eightfold path - ciita is a path moment - because panna is of vipassana kind/strenght). > > These I think are the fundamentals, and I hope I didn't make a mistake. Please let me know if this is clear... This is very clear, and very nicely laid out. I do appreciate the step-by-step explanation. I think you'd be eligible to write the "Abhidhamma for Dummies" book for those who are not quite ready to understand Nina's books [which may include me...] This is very good. Your explanation of these correspondences really confirms what I generally thought should be right -- that "right" concentration only arises when accompanied with the right path conditions/factors, such as the correct degree of panna, etc., as you described. The explanation for kusala and akusala concentration accompanying cittas that have the corresponding types of kusala or akusala roots also makes perfect sense and what I would have thought would be the case. The review of the role of the roots and the other factors is very helpful. The thing that threw me off was that damned quote that appears to say that "right concentration" arises with every citta. Obviously that must be a mistake. > ...and if so, then we can move towards discussing more complex issues like what is development of kusala, what is development of the eightfold path, what is yoga, what is meditation, what is sniper's concentration, what is jhana, etc. Sounds good! The first two are good starters: development of kusala, development of the NEP. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - #122593 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:53 am Subject: Re: Short on "no-control" epsteinrob Hi Alex. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello RobertE, all, > > Here is another thing: The Buddha has never said that > "there is no self". > > In SN44.10 The Buddha refused to claim that "self doesn't exist" > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn44/sn44.010.than.html > > Anatta teaching deals with emperic reality where 5 aggregates are not-Self. It doesn't go into metaphysics. > > Also the Buddha has never said anything like: > "Since there is no Self, there is no control". > > In MN#2 the speculations about Self/No-Self are said to be inappropriate reflections and that one should contemplate 4NT instead. > > So this sidesteps various philosophical problems that may arise. Buddha did say quite explicitly that all dhammas are not-self, and that all of the khandas are not-self, going through each of them one by one. The reasoning that he gives for why the khandas are not a self or part of self is that one cannot control them or make them do what one wants. That is said clearly for all of the kandhas. So the question is: if none of the kandhas is oneself, which includes mind, feelings and other personality factors, then what is left to constitute a self? The only other candidate is nibbana, and so you are left in the position of either saying there is no self, or nibbana is a self. Since nibbana is also explicitly said to be not-self as well, what is left? Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = #122594 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:15 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna epsteinrob Hi Alex. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello RobertE, > > >I think the idea is not that we should drop all intentional action >- >it is specifically wrong view to think that intentional actions >can >lead to kusala, not that intentional actions are bad for >everyday >living. > >================================ > > Of course intention can be kusala or akusala. It is not fault of meditation if a person misuses it, just like it is not fault of the tool if someone misuses it. > > Not all practices involve have to involve wrong view. I agree. But there is some caution about whether there is akusala cetana behind the desire to develop the path. That doesn't just apply to meditation, but to anything one does to promote the path. I don't agree with those who say that this eliminates the possibility of practice, but I do think it's something that one has to be aware of. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - #122595 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:18 am Subject: anatta is not natthatta (no self) truth_aerator Hello RobertE, all, >Buddha did say quite explicitly that all dhammas are not-self, and >that all of the khandas are not-self, going through each of them one >by one. >============================================= The Buddha very often has said that 5 aggregates are anatta. The Buddha did not say that "there is no Self" . His anatta teaching is that form, feeling, perception, volition and consciousness are not-self. This should NOT be interpreted to mean that Self is. Just that the focus of the Buddha's teaching is on experiential and not metaphysics. "If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn44/sn44.010.than.html The Buddha has clearly said that to say "There is No Self" would be like to side with annihilationists. The Buddha than reaffirmed anatta teaching which is distinctly His. So natthatta (there is no self) is different from anatta. Former is being wrong view, while latter is right view. And again, MN#2 is fully consistent with this. It lists "Am I not", etc, with inappropriate reflection and recommends 4NT. In Buddha's teaching questions such as "Is there Self" or "There is no Self" don't even warrant a reply - SN 44.10 With metta, Alex #122596 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:39 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna truth_aerator Hi RobertE, all, >But there is some caution about whether there is akusala >cetana >behind the desire to develop the path. >=================== There can be less-than-ideal aspiration such as to practice Dhamma to be reborn in heaven. But even this is not akusala. It is just not the best goal to strive after and it still leaves one vulnerable to bad kammavipaka that can ripen some time later. But even here, it *can* be used skillfully. Do you remember Nanda's story? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.3.02.irel.html In AN4.159 craving and conceit can be used as stimulus for developing the path. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.159.than.html So even with "akusala" things one can still use it for the path. Akusala is almost a given mental reaction for most people, so we might as well use "lemons to make a lemonade" rather than give up and wait for better times in some vague future. I believe that if one doesn't do the best one can NOW saying ("lets wait till accumulations are right), then the better situation will NOT arise. Better circumstances happen when you set the causes for them to happen. IMHO. With best wishes, Alex #122597 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:57 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna truth_aerator Hello RobertE, A good quote: "The other extreme is when other people encourage you to give up exerting any control over anything at all. They tell you to try not to have desire for anything; just accept everything as it is, and be content that that's all you can do. This, of course, makes it impossible to practice the path. You simply try to clone awakening: You hear that an awakened person has no desire, so you tell yourself to have no desire; an awakened person has no preferences, so you tell yourself to have no preferences. This is twisting the horns of a cow in trying to get milk and seeing that no milk is coming out, so you say, "Oh, well, there must be no way of getting milk because I've been twisting the horn for a long time. So I should just accept the fact that milk is unattainable." That's an unskillful use of the not-self perception. The Buddha's strategy in using the perception of not-self is to train you to understand accurately what does lie under your control and what doesn't; abandoning what doesn't; and then using what level of control you do have in a skillful direction so that you can ultimately put an end to suffering." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/selvesnotself.html#talk6 With best wishes, Alex #122598 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:45 am Subject: The Best Fortune! bhikkhu5 Friends: What is the Best Fortune that can be Gained? Once an illuminating deity asked The Buddha: Which good fortune is the best? Whereto he answered: Not associating with fools, but only with the wise; Honouring only those, who really deserves it; Living in suitable climatic and peaceful regions; Great learning, good discipline and exact speech; Service to mother and father, support of wife and sons; all these are the supreme good fortune! Giving, and living the just and generous life supporting relatives; Avoidance from all evil behaviour through complete self-control; Abstinence from intoxicating drinks and drugs causing carelessness; Reverence, devoted faith in the Dhamma, humility, and contentment; Grateful hearing and study of the Dhamma, when one is ready for it: This is the supreme good fortune! Forbearance, patience, and humble yet keen attention, when corrected; Seeing ascetics, recluses, sages and bhikkhus, who explain the Dhamma; Living the Noble life, understanding the Noble Truths, & realising quenching; Being unperturbed, when contacted by the manifold phenomena of the world; Having established these exquisite states, one is unconquered everywhere; One goes in safety everywhere — this is verily the supreme good fortune! Sn 258-269 <...> The Best Fortune! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #122599 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:17 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna jonoabb Hi Rob E (122283) > =============== > RE: Well, in a technical way, a moment of kusala could arise here and there as individual moments and pass completely unnoticed, though they will add a drop to the kusala tendency, but I would take it that when kusala accumulates to the point where it becomes a steadier tendency through accumulation, then we would see some sort of manifestation of kusala in a longer series of moments, due to the greater accumulated tendency. So if we notice that someone very clearly reaches out to someone to help them in a moment of spontaneous and sincere compassion, would that conventional event represent the accumulation of kusala, or would the accumulation and manifestation of kusala always be so fleeting that no one would be able to discern its results except someone who perceives dhammas directly? > =============== J: Kusala can only be 'seen' by panna, that is to say, the panna of the person in whom the kusala arises (this includes panna of the level of samatha as well as of vipassana). It is not really possible to know from observing the actions of another the extent to which those acts are motivated by kusala. But I'm not sure whether the issue you have in mind relates only in the context of the observed acts of another, as you have described it, or whether it concerns the development of kusala generally. If the latter, perhaps you could restate the question. Thanks. > =============== > RE: I am talking about what you are talking about - kusala accumulations leading to more kusala. If there is a series of kusala moments that represent a greater accumulation of kusala, that would be the kusala result. But I wonder if we can see the echo of this in conventional metta and acts of compassion, at least when it really does have kusala behind it? > =============== J: The point is that it is just not possible to know to what extent an observed conventional act of compassion is accompanied by kusala. (BTW, in terms of the teachings, the relationship between previous moments of kusala and subsequently arising moments of the same kusala is that of 'natural decisive support condition' (Pali: pakatuppanissaya). The latter are not said to be the 'result' of the former. The term 'result' usually refers to vipaka citta.) > =============== > > J: I'm afraid I don't see the relevance of deducing the nature of cittas from the conventional action. The teaching is about directly knowing cittas as they arise. Perhaps you could expand on the significance of the approach you're putting forward. > > RE: How does one directly know cittas? Isn't there some gradual development there as well? And how does that take place? > =============== J: The question, "How does one directly know cittas?" is the question everyone would like to know the answer to :-)). However, there's no simple or straightforward answer. The fact is that cittas can only be known by the mental factor of panna, and panna arises by a set of conditions that do not include the deliberate attempting to have it arise. You are right about the gradual nature of the development of the path. Everything begins (and keeps on beginning) with hearing the teachings appropriately explained and reflecting on what has been heard and understood. Jon