#123200 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:19 am Subject: Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Sarah and Robert K, > > -------------- > > As far as I can gather, the discussion you (Sarah) saw as "about science" was actually about this fundamental but hard-to-pin-down difference. Do concepts such as men, women and animals have kamma and vipakka? Should we insist that human beings did not evolve from primitive life forms? Should our schools teach that human beings and animals are created by past kamma? > Dear Ken I think we could leave aside the question of whether schools should teach about Dhamma, and just focus on direct questions: For example: In the texts there are cases of animals and even a flea being reborn instantaneosly as humans, no evolution involved. This would not be accepted by science but it seems perfectly correct to me. What do you think of those cases? robert #123201 From: "norbert_jakaoemo" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:27 am Subject: How to learn Pali en Sutta's norbert_jaka... Dear All, I would like to learn pali and more to learn to recite and understand some Sutta's. If anyone has a suggestion on how and where to start. For example some short and easy sutta's so i can learn both at the same time.. All suggestions are heartly welcome.. Thanks in advance. Norbert. #123202 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Recollecting by comparison (3) nilovg Dear Han, I like this text very much, used it in my Abh in Daily Life. Nina. Op 13-mrt-2012, om 13:56 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Vism VIII, 39. [8]. As to the shortness of the moment > [kha.naparittato]: in the ultimate sense the life moment of living > beings is extremely short, #123203 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Small introduction nilovg Dear Norbert, That is a very nice picture you uploaded. I am glad you enjoy dsg. Nina. Op 13-mrt-2012, om 13:10 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > And yes, It feels good to get a lot of Dhamma mails. I'm learning > so much > already and it's feeling good to have some Dhamma friends and > guides close > to me (in my laptop ;-)) #123204 From: Alex Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Small introduction norbert_jaka... Thanks to your book, Nina. After being isolated here in Suriname it feels good to have internet again and get some Dahmma food again.. Norbert 2012/3/13 Nina van Gorkom > ** > > > Dear Norbert, > That is a very nice picture you uploaded. I am glad you enjoy dsg. > Nina. > Op 13-mrt-2012, om 13:10 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > > > > And yes, It feels good to get a lot of Dhamma mails. I'm learning > > so much > > already and it's feeling good to have some Dhamma friends and > > guides close > > to me (in my laptop ;-)) > > > > > #123205 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 12-mrt-2012, om 19:13 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > I quoted the suttas about one's parents to emphasize the two truths > of the Tipitaka : mundane /conventional and supramundane / > absolute , which > is already shown to us by the first Noble Truth. ----- N: Supramundane truth, truth that is lokuttara, this is nibbaana. Lokuttara citta experiences nibbaana. All that is not lokuttara is lokiya, worldly. Citta that is lokiya experiences paramattha dhammas, ultimate realities and concepts or ideas. Concepts we can call conventional truth, such as a table, a person. Ultimate realities: visible object, hardness, seeing. Paramattha dhammas have their own unalterable characteristics. We can change their names, but their characteristics do not change. Seeing is always seeing even if we call it by another name, be it in German, in Thai. We experience ultimate realities all the time, even now. But we do not realize that they are paramattha dhammas, we just let them pass, absorbed as we are in concepts, stories about people and situations, conventional truth. We think on account of what is seen about this beautiful springflower that is just coming out. We forget that there must have been seeing, the experience of what appears through eyesense, only that. Otherwise we could not think of a flower. I wonder whether it makes sense to you that I changed around the idea of mundane /conventional and supramundane /absolute , there is absolute in the mundane and also conventional in the mundane. ------ Nina. > One cannot proclaim the exclusive reality of the latter when still > experiencing the former, can one? #123206 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? Part 1 nilovg Dear Alex, Op 11-mrt-2012, om 21:01 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Please note: "He is incapable of passing away until he has realized > the fruit of stream-entry."" So sotapatti phala can occur at death > which can be dozens of years after reaching sotapatti magga. ------ N: The sotaapatti phala occurs in the same process. It is the vipaaka of the magga-citta and this is a specific case, the obly case that the result arises in the same process. That is why the term akalika is used, without delay. (See Visuddhimagga). The death-consciousness could not occur in between the maggacitta and the phalacitta, since these arise in one and the same process. ----- Nina. #123207 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:11 am Subject: stream entry path can last long time. truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, >N: The sotaapatti phala occurs in the same process. Of course. If John enters stream-entry path, then John, not someone else, will reach stream-entry fruition. >It is the vipaaka of the magga-citta and this is a specific case, >the obly case that the result arises in the same process. >============================================= And like kamma can give vipaka much later, so can phala give rise to magga much later within this lifetime. >That is why the term akalika is used, without delay. I believe akalika refers to that the truth of Dhamma is true in all times and cultures. It is true today as much as it was true in 5th BC India. With metta, Alex #123208 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] stream entry path can last long time. nilovg Dear Alex, Op 13-mrt-2012, om 17:11 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > And like kamma can give vipaka much later, so can phala give rise > to magga much later within this lifetime. ------ N: Phala is vipaaka and it cannot produce magga which is cause, kusala kamma. ------- > > A: >That is why the term akalika is used, without delay. > > I believe akalika refers to that the truth of Dhamma is true in all > times and cultures. It is true today as much as it was true in 5th > BC India. ------ N: What you say here is correct, but the term akalika has a specific meaning. Vis. VII, 80: <[not delayed]: it has no delay (lit. takes no time- kaala) in the matter of giving its own fruit, thus it is 'without delay (akaala)'. 'Without delay' is the same as 'not delayed (akaalika)'. ... it gives its fruit immediately next to its own occurrence (see Sn. 226)> ------ Then it is explained that it is different from the mundane law of profitable kamma. ----- Nina. #123209 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:21 am Subject: Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace moellerdieter Hi Ken H, all, just a feedback between ... you wrote: 'As far as I can gather, the discussion you (Sarah) saw as "about science" was actually about this fundamental but hard-to-pin-down difference. Do concepts such as men, women and animals have kamma and vipakka? Should we insist that human beings did not evolve from primitive life forms? Should our schools teach that human beings and animals are created by past kamma? I think that would be a gross misrepresentation of the Dhamma. It would place the Dhamma alongside all the madcap, dangerous, religious superstitions that are plaguing the world. D:Ken , the Buddha stated that he was teaching for the suffering being, individual, person. That is the Buddha Dhamma all about : " all what I am teaching is suffering , the orgination of suffering, the end of suffering , and the path to end suffering." The being is not concept , concept is the Buddha Dhamma in that way that the being needs it like a raft to cross the stream for the other shore. K: 'Should our schools teach that human beings and animals are created by past kamma? D: a rhetoric question I assume .. Buddhism is the philosophy/religion /science of the East . You can not take parts of the Dhamma to teach what doesn't fit into the world view of the West. Of course the kids have to be taught what is known (science) and what is believed (religion) within the framework of their cultural environment . The Dhamma -as you may know -rejects the point of creation , instead of that proclaims the Law of Dependent Origination without that a beginning can found. An issue for universities , not schools. The role of (past) kamma is extensively treated , but an acceptance of (the mundane right understanding of) 'There is this world & the next world' is assumed . I think it is up to everybody to believe the Buddha that there are countless worlds , a ' multiverse ' of realms .. but at least one should keep an open mind for later insights. A huge potential for experience still open. Finally we agree that it is ignorance /avijja , which keeps us in the world of ageing , sickness and death, don't we? As the issue of creationism and theory of evolution is an issue of global discussion, I see no reason at all , that interested members of DSG should avoid the issue in respect to the Dhamma's point of view . K: 'There are no human beings or animals in satipatthana. A superficial reading of the texts would strongly suggest otherwise, but that is whole the point, isn't it? The Dhamma is the opposite of superficial.' D: the animal is not subject of satipatthana but the human being within the framework of body, feeling ,mind and mind objects. That Abhidhamma analyses this framework in it's finest details and therefore speak of absolute truth (paramattha dhamma) , is not meant to deny the conventional truth of one's social environment . When the term abolute/ultimate is neglected , which I noted increasingly , then it may happen that one rejects the ground of one is standing or moving, talking and thinking . Frankly speaking , I do not get the point why the conventional truth is not simply accepted as reality as it is with absolute reality obviously the case. Each is vaild , true in its own domain. with Metta Dieter #123210 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Short on "no-control" moellerdieter Dear Sarah, you wrote: S: As discussed, nama in the context of D.O. specifically refers to vipaka cetasikas which accompany patisandhi (birth citta) and subsequent vipaka cittas (i.e. vinnana in this context). Rupa in this context refers to rupas conditioned by kamma. So not all volition, contact and attention are included here. For example, at the moment of seeing (vipaka citta) the 7 universal cetasikas arise with it. These included volition, contact and attention. These are all 'nama' in the context of D.O., but the volition, contact and attention accompanying the cittas which think about what is seen now are not. D: I recall that the D.O. is treated by the Abhidhamma in plenty of modes . It is therefore useful for understanding when we first talk about D.O. in its common presentation , like SN XII 2. Sankhara Khanda is explained by volition, contact and attention , another definition is 'volition' in respect to the 6 senses media, i.e. 'future kamma' which includes thinking about the seen ( previous kamma/vipaka ). However I think we have different contexts in mind .. .... <....> > S:>While these dhammas are khandhas, so are all the other dhammas referred to. Nibbana is the only dhamma which is not khandha. > > D: as dhammas covers 'all things ', they cover the 5 khandas , not vice versa .. (see above) > is nibbana a 'thing ' ? That would be a no(t)- thing , wouldn't it? .... S: The only realities, dhammas, are the khandhas and nibbana. I would describe these as elements, not things. D: I liked the no (t) thing as a play of words... Element is much associated with 'thing' , compromise ' phenomena (mental/ corporal)' ? ;-) with Metta Dieter #123211 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:06 am Subject: The Story of Santati the Minister [ presented by Dr.Han Tun at SD and JTN ] yawares1 Dear Members, Beautiful Tuesday morning after the rain, the weather is so fresh with fog all around me, feel like I'm in dreamland. And it's the right time to post this wonderful story to share with you all. *************** The Story of Santati the Minister While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (142) of this book, with reference to Santati, the minister of King Pasenadi of Kosala. On one occasion, Santati the minister returned after suppressing a rebellion on the border. King Pasenadi was so pleased with him that he honoured the minister with the gift of the riches and glory of a ruler together with a dancing girl to entertain him for seven days. For seven days, the king's minister enjoyed himself to his heart's content, getting intoxicated with drink and infatuated with the young dancer. On the seventh day, riding the ornamented royal elephant, he went down to the riverside for a bath. On the way, he met the Buddha going on an alms-round, and being drunk, he just bowed casually, as a sign of respect to the Buddha. The Buddha smiled, and Ananda asked the Buddha why he smiled. So, the Buddha said to Ananda, "Ananda, this minister will come to see me this very day and after I have given him a short discourse will become an arahat. Soon after becoming an arahat he will realize parinibbana." Santati and his party spent the whole day at the riverside, bathing, eating, drinking and thus thoroughly enjoying themselves. In the evening the minister and his party went to the garden to have more drinks and to be entertained by the dancer. The dancer, on her part, tried her best to entertain the minister. For the whole week she was living on reduced diet to keep herself trim. While dancing, she suffered a severe stroke and collapsed, and at that instant she died with her eyes and mouth wide open. The minister was shocked and deeply distressed. In agony, he tried to think of a refuge and remembered the Buddha. He went to the Buddha, accompanied by his followers, and related to him about the grief and anguish he suffered on account of the sudden death of the dancer. He then said to the Buddha, "Venerable Sir! Please help me get over my sorrow; be my refuge, and let me have the peace of mind." To him the Buddha replied, "Rest assured my son, you have come to one, who could help you, One who could be a constant solace to you and who will be your refuge. The tears you have shed due to the death of this dancer throughout the round of rebirths is more than the waters of all the oceans." The Buddha then instructed the minister in verse. The meaning of the verse is as follows. "In the past there has been in you clinging (upadana) due to craving; get rid of it. In future, do not let such clinging occur in you. Do not also harbour any clinging in the present; by not having any clinging, craving and passion will be calmed in you and you will realize Nibbana." After hearing the verse, the minister attained arahatship. Then, realizing that his life span was at an end, he said to the Buddha, "Venerable Sir! Let me now realize parinibbana, for my time has come." The Buddha consenting, Santati rose to a height of seven toddy-palms into the sky and there, while meditating on the element of fire (tejo kasina), he passed away realizing parinibbana. His body went up in flames, his blood and flesh burnt up and the bone relics (dhatu) fell through the sky and dropped on the clean piece of cloth which was spread by the bhikkhus as instructed by the Buddha. At the congregation, the bhikkhus asked the Buddha, "Venerable Sir! The minister had realized parinibbana dressed in full regalia; is he a samana on a brahmana?" To them, the Buddha replied "Bhikkhus! My son can be called both a samana and a brahmana." Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: Verse 142: Though he is gaily decked, if he is calm, free from moral defilements, and has his senses controlled, if he is established in Magga Insight, if he is pure and has laid aside enmity (lit., weapons) towards all beings, he indeed is a brahmana, a samana, and a bhikkhu. ************** Love Buddha's dhamma, yawares #123212 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Recollecting by comparison (3) yawares1 Dear Dr. Han Tun, I love love what you posted: Vism VIII, 39. [8]. As to the shortness of the moment [kha.naparittato]: in the ultimate sense the life moment of living beings is extremely short, being only as much as the occurrence of a single conscious moment. Just as a chariot wheel, when it is rolling, rolls [that is, touches the ground] only on one point of [the circumference of] its tyre, and, when it is at rest, rests only on one point, so too, the life of living beings lasts only for a single conscious moment. When that consciousness has ceased, the being is said to have ceased, according as it is said: 'In a past conscious moment he did live, not he does live, not he will live. In a future conscious moment not he did live, not he does live, he will live. In the present conscious moment not he did live, he does live, not he will live. ------- yawares: I had to concentrate deeply to read this Vism VIII,39 [8] in order to understand. The subject is very profound. Truly appreciate, yawares --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Nina, > > Thank you very much for your kind comments. > > Nina: We are likely to forget that we have to give up the khandhas. But each moment these are deceasing. The ruupas of the body we had yesterday are no more today, and even the ruupas of a split second ago have gone. > > Han: Very true! That is why it is mentioned in Visuddhimagga: > > Vism VIII, 39. [8]. As to the shortness of the moment [kha.naparittato]: in the ultimate sense the life moment of living beings is extremely short, being only as much as the occurrence of a single conscious moment. <....> #123213 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:33 am Subject: Re: How to learn Pali en Sutta's yawares1 Dear Norbert, My dear friend, Dr. Han Tun is an expert in pali/sutta. He's also a DSG member. yawares --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norbert_jakaoemo" wrote: > > Dear All, > > I would like to learn pali and more to learn to recite and understand some Sutta's. If anyone has a suggestion on how and where to start. For example some short and easy sutta's so i can learn both at the same time.. <....> #123214 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Two Brothers [ presented by 'fabianfred'@ Dhamma Wheel ] moellerdieter Dear Yawares (and Christine), you wrote: ''fabianfred' is a monk residing at Wat SriBunRuang, Chiangmai, Thailand (I saw his picture at Dhamma Wheel). Many people @ Dhamma Wheel love his stories( he's a story-teller like me).' D: I wonder that members at Dhamma Wheel did not recognize those doubtful aspects of the story Y: must admit that I don't know much about rules of the Order. D: please look at the useful link Christine provided Bhikkhus' Rules A Guide for Laypeople compiled and explained by Bhikkhu Ariyesako http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/ariyesako/layguide.html#alms with Metta Dieter .. #123215 From: han tun Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How to learn Pali en Sutta's hantun1 Dear Yawares and Norbert, Thank you very much for your kind words. But I am not an expert in Paa.li at all. Because, I do not know Paa.li grammar. I am too old to learn Paa.li grammar which is very difficult. I can understand Paa.li texts because I have English translation or Burmese translation or both to match with the Paa.li text. If you take away the translations I am nowhere. with metta and respect, Han --- On Tue, 3/13/12, Yawares Sastri wrote: Dear Norbert, My dear friend, Dr. Han Tun is an expert in pali/sutta. He's also a DSG member. yawares #123216 From: "norbert_jakaoemo" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:52 am Subject: Re: How to learn Pali en Sutta's norbert_jaka... Dear Han and Yawares, Thanks for answering. I also looked around on internet and it's seems more easier to me to just start with learning to recite some Sutta's and by time i'll learn some more pali. It is more for reciting some sutta's which are very inspiring to me. I dont wont to go in to all the grammer. Lots of metta, Norbert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Yawares and Norbert, > > Thank you very much for your kind words. > But I am not an expert in Paa.li at all. > Because, I do not know Paa.li grammar. > I am too old to learn Paa.li grammar which is very difficult. > I can understand Paa.li texts because I have English translation or Burmese translation or both to match with the Paa.li text. > If you take away the translations I am nowhere. > > with metta and respect, > Han > > --- On Tue, 3/13/12, Yawares Sastri wrote: > Dear Norbert, > My dear friend, Dr. Han Tun is an expert in pali/sutta. He's also a DSG > member. > yawares > #123217 From: han tun Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How to learn Pali en Sutta's hantun1 Dear Norbert (Yawares), You can start with the Mahaa Paritta. Please click on the following http://www.thisismyanmar.com/nibbana/mahapri1.htm There are eleven suttas, with Paa.li text, Burmese translation and English translation. You can skip the Burmese translation and match the Paa.li text with the English translation. metta, Han --- On Wed, 3/14/12, norbert_jakaoemo wrote: Dear Han and Yawares, Thanks for answering. I also looked around on internet and it's seems more easier to me to just start with learning to recite some Sutta's and by time i'll learn some more pali. It is more for reciting some sutta's which are very inspiring to me. I dont wont to go in to all the grammer. Lots of metta, Norbert #123218 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:45 am Subject: Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace kenhowardau Hi Howard and Robert E, ------ <. . .> >> HCW: He speaks of several principles that affect human events. But if I am wrong, and indeed the Buddha said that whatever befalls one is fully determined by one's own kamma, then I am not a Buddhist. (So sue me.) ------ KH: What are these things that you are saying befall one? Do they include bankruptcy, limb amputation, divorce, and other things that are commonly regarded as misfortune? Or do they include only fleeting vipakka cittas experiencing fleeting, inconsequential, rupas? And is there any "one" that owns those fleeting cittas? ------------------------- > RE: I'm sure there are other factors involved, just that Buddha did make direct statements in the sutta quoted earlier and in at least one or more others that I've seen that the reason that life is short, long, sick, well, etc. is due to kamma, and sometimes he talked about specific types of deeds involved. -------------------------- KH: Conventional-language suttas should be read after the Abhidhamma-language suttas, not before. Otherwise there will be these interminable, unanswerable questions and no progress in the Dhamma. --------------- <. . .> > RE: As for being a Buddhist, that is a label. If you follow the basic description of reality and the path that Buddha taught, then you are a follower of The Buddha, I'd say. If you disagree with him on something, I'll leave it to those who accept everything that the Buddha may have said or thought on faith to complain. I don't believe in cloud Gods, which Buddha mentioned as causing the rain, but I'm not too concerned about that. ---------------- KH: I agree. For what that's worth! :-) Ken H #123219 From: Alex Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How to learn Pali en Sutta's norbert_jaka... Thank you, Han. I just went throu the first Sutta, the mangala sutta and its worth to learn this one. I got some homework for now :-). Metta, Norbert 2012/3/13 han tun > ** > > > Dear Norbert (Yawares), > > You can start with the Mahaa Paritta. > Please click on the following > > http://www.thisismyanmar.com/nibbana/mahapri1.htm > > There are eleven suttas, with Paa.li text, Burmese translation and English > translation. > You can skip the Burmese translation and match the Paa.li text with the > English translation. > > metta, > Han > > --- On Wed, 3/14/12, norbert_jakaoemo wrote: > Dear Han and Yawares, > > Thanks for answering. I also looked around on internet and it's seems more > easier to me to just start with learning to recite some Sutta's and by time > i'll learn some more pali. It is more for reciting some sutta's which are > very inspiring to me. I dont wont to go in to all the grammer. > > Lots of metta, > Norbert > > > #123220 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:56 am Subject: DEAR DIETER, A STORY FOR YOU. yawares1 Dear Dieter, I might not know the rules of the Order, but I did read that once the Buddha told thera Sudhamma to apologize to the great upasaka Citta. I post the following story just for you: The Story of Citta the Householder While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verses (73) and (74) of this book, with reference to Thera Sudhamma and Citta the householder. Citta, a householder, once met Thera Mahanama, one of the group of the first five bhikkhus (Pancavaggis), going on an alms-round, and invited the thera to his house. There, he offered alms-food to the thera and after listening to the discourse given by him, Citta attained Sotapatti Fruition. Later, Citta built a monastery in his mango grove. There, he looked to the needs of all bhikkhus who came to the monastery and Bhikkhu Sudhamma was installed as the resident bhikkhu. One day, the two Chief Disciples of the Buddha, the Venerable Sariputta and the Venerable Maha Moggallana, came to the monastery and after listening to the discourse given by the Venerable Sariputta, Citta attained Anagami Fruition. Then, he invited the two Chief Disciples to his house for alms-food the next day. He also invited Thera Sudhamma, but Thera Sudhamma refused in anger and said, "You invite me only after the other two." Citta repeated his invitation, but it was turned down. Nevertheless, Thera Sudhamma went to the house of Citta early on the following day. But when invited to enter the house, Thera Sudhamma refused and said that he would not sit down as he was going on his alms-round. But when he saw the things that were to be offered to the two Chief Disciples, he envied them so much that he could not restrain his anger. He abused Citta and said, "I don't want to stay in your monastery any longer," and left the house in anger. From there, he went to the Buddha and reported everything that had happened. To him, the Buddha said, "You have insulted a lay-disciple who is endowed with faith and generously. You'd better go back to him and own up your mistake." Sudhamma did as he was told by the Buddha, but Citta would not be appeased; so he returned to the Buddha for the second time. The Buddha, knowing that the pride of Sudhamma had dwindled by this time, said, "My son, a good bhikkhu should have no attachment; a good bhikkhu should not be conceited and say 'This is my monastery, this is my place, these are my lay-disciples,' etc., for in one with such thoughts, covetousness and pride will increase." Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: Verse 73: The foolish bhikkhu desires praise for qualities he does not have, precedence among bhikkhus, authority in the monasteries, and veneration from those unrelated to him. Verse 74: "Let both laymen and bhikkhus think that things are done because of me; let them obey me in all matters, great and small." Such being the thoughts of the fool, his greed and his pride grow. At the end of the discourse, Sudhamma went to the house of Citta, and this time they got reconciled; and within a few days, Sudhamma attained arahatship. ******************* yawares: I think being an ordinary monk is nothing compare to a householder who attained Anagami Fruition. **And that was why the monk kneeled down to give respect to his elder brother who achieved certain state of enlightenment.** Sincerely, yawares #123221 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] stream entry path can last long time. truth_aerator Dear Nina, What the suttas say is that person on stream entry path does not necessary happen only for one moment. One can be on the path until death. With metta, Alex #123222 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:34 am Subject: Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace kenhowardau Hi Dieter, ---------- <. . .> > D: the Buddha stated that he was teaching for the suffering being, individual, person. That is the Buddha Dhamma all about : " all what I am teaching is suffering , the orgination of suffering, the end of suffering , and the path to end suffering." ------------ KH: Excuse me, Dieter, where does that quote refer to a suffering "being, individual or person"? ------------------ D: The being is not concept , concept is the Buddha Dhamma in that way that the being needs it like a raft to cross the stream for the other shore. ------------------ KH: Are you saying the path (raft) does not exist, but the traveller on it does exist? I can find you a quote (Visuddhimagga XVI) that specifically says the exact opposite. You may have seen it a few hundred times on DSG. :-) --------------------- >> KH: 'Should our schools teach that human beings and animals are created by past kamma? >> > D: a rhetoric question I assume .. Buddhism is the philosophy/religion /science of the East . You can not take parts of the Dhamma to teach what doesn't fit into the world view of the West. --------------------- KH: If it was true (that human beings are created by past kamma) it should be taught in all schools, east and west. But it isn't true; it is miccha-ditthi. It falls into the category of "Will I be reborn? Will I not be reborn? . . . . Does the Tathagatha exist after parinibbana? Does the Tathagatha not exist after parinibbana?" All of those considerations indicate wrong understanding. -------------------------------- > D: Of course the kids have to be taught what is known (science) and what is believed (religion) within the framework of their cultural environment. -------------------------------- KH: There is a third category: What did the Buddha teach?(history). I think that would be an excellent subject for any school, east or west. I am not so sure there would be many qualified teachers, however. --------------------- > D: The Dhamma -as you may know -rejects the point of creation , instead of that proclaims the Law of Dependent Origination without that a beginning can found. An issue for universities , not schools. --------------------- KH: I would love it to be taught in schools. It is currently taught in universities, but not by qualified teachers. I think you will find almost all university Dhamma teachers think the Dhamma is just another silly religion – just another set of instructions to be followed in the quest for nibbana. But, even so, if it is treated as a legitimate course of scientific study - "What did the historical Buddha actually teach?" – then it does belong in universities Even if the professors don't know the answer! --------------------------- > D: The role of (past) kamma is extensively treated , but an acceptance of (the mundane right understanding of) 'There is this world & the next world' is assumed . I think it is up to everybody to believe the Buddha that there are countless worlds , a ' multiverse ' of realms .. but at least one should keep an open mind for later insights. ---------------------------- KH: No, Dieter, without right understanding of nama and rupa there is no difference between "I shall be reborn" and "I shall not be reborn." Without right understanding all such statements are equally, and completely, wrong. ------------------------------- > D: A huge potential for experience still open. Finally we agree that it is ignorance /avijja , which keeps us in the world of ageing , sickness and death, don't we? ------------------------------- KH: Yes, but you and I understand those words differently. So the question is, which of our two understandings (if either) was actually taught by the Buddha? We can't both be right. --------------------- > D: As the issue of creationism and theory of evolution is an issue of global discussion, I see no reason at all , that interested members of DSG should avoid the issue in respect to the Dhamma's point of view . --------------------- KH: The reason is that science (conventional wisdom) and Dhamma are two different fields. The former is the study of concepts while the latter is the study of paramattha dhammas. There is no way in which they can agree with each other. And there is no way they can contradict each other. Ken H #123223 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:09 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Rob E > > (123054) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > RE: My point, as usual, is that if a certain stage is reached at which certain tendencies have been eradicated, and that entails a change in conventional behavior - whatever other contingencies may be involved - it means that there is indeed a correspondence between the dhammas that do or don't arise and the conventional behavior that will no longer take place. If there were no relation at all between the dhammas of the sotapanna and the householder's life, which is conventional, then there would not be any necessary change in the conventional behavior. That is just logical. The obvious conclusion is that the change in dhammas that attends the sotapanna stage is expressed in certain conventional changes. The abstentions that take place on the dhamma level when certain defilements have been eradicated are expressed in conventional abstentions as well. Is there any other way to see this? > > =============== > > J: Let's go back to the texts. In the suttas, it is said that the sotapanna possesses 4 qualities: > - confirmed confidence in the Buddha, > - confirmed confidence in the Dhamma, > - confirmed confidence in the Sangha, > - the virtues (sila) that are dear to the noble ones, > and that the sotapanna is freed from the possibility of rebirth in the lower realms. > > Because of the perfection of sila, the sotapanna is incapable of committing akusala kamma patha that would result in birth in one of the lower planes. This is the 'correspondence' that is to be found. It is not a correspondence with conventional behaviour, since there is no fixed behaviour that equates to breach of the different precepts. (For example, a person may effect the death of another, and thus be in breach of the first precept, by speaking on the phone). But may a sotapanna engage in householder life or activities, if his situation were such? The death of another by speaking on the phone would be an accident I assume, not an intentional act. > Even less can the attainment of stream-entry be said to necessarily involve a *change* in conventional behaviour, since, on the basis of the suttas, there are many who were already living lives of good sila before becoming enlightened. That doesn't really refute the point that after becoming a sotapanna, householder life is impossible. That is the correspondence. There is no prohibition on someone who is not a sotapanna refraining from conventional activities, so it is really beside the point. > The qualities of the sotapanna are explained in SN 55 ('Sotapattisamyutta). For translations of some selected suttas, see: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/index.html#sn55 > > > =============== > > RE: That may be true, and will only apply if the conventional behavior involved happened not to manifest for whatever reasons. It does not change the formulaic truth that at stage 'a,' conventional behavior 'a' will no longer manifest. > > =============== > > J: Regarding "the formulaic truth that at stage 'a' [of enlightenment], conventional behaviour 'a' will no longer manifest", for reasons given above I don't think that's a correct statement. There is no example of a sotapanna who is a householder. That is all that is necessary to show the correspondence. Any other interesting examples that are about other combinations that are not prohibited don't have anything to do with this. If someone accidentally causes the death of another, that doesn't really refute anything either. > What I think can be said is that at each stage of enlightenment, as kilesas are progressively eradicated, deeds motivated/accompanied by those eradicated kilesas is no longer possible. In any case, that shows that such deeds are caused by or associated with such kilesas, and thus the correspondence between kilesas and conventional actions or involvements is still firm. I am not disputing any of the specifics you have been talking about, only drawing the logical conclusion that if the conventional behavior involved is impossible after a certain stage, that this conventional behavior must reflect the eradication of the kilesas that is associated with that stage. > > =============== > > RE: Are you saying that there is no new development, but only the re-arising of previous accumulations? That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me, but I am probably misinterpreting what you said. > > =============== > > J: Of course, development can occur, but only if there is the re-arising of previously accumulated kusala. > > > =============== > > RE: It is still difficult for me to understand how panna which arises in relation to a dhamma would affect cetana that is directed towards a conventional being. Can you help me clarify this? "Not killing an insect" is directed towards a being. How does this occur on the dhamma level? > > =============== > > J: The restraint involved in refraining from killing an insect may well be kusala but does not require panna. It is kusala of the level of sila. If however there is awareness of kusala restraint, then panna will be involved, having the (just fallen away) citta or cetasika as its object. So the panna would just be aware of the restraint, not of the object of that restraint which is conventional? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #123224 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:12 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > HCW: > :-) I DO consider myself a follower of the Buddha - and doing the > best I can. Me too - cloud gods notwithstanding. ;-) Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - #123225 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:20 pm Subject: Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace epsteinrob Hi Ken H., and Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Howard and Robert E, > > ------ > <. . .> > >> HCW: He speaks of several principles that affect human events. But if I am wrong, and indeed the Buddha said that whatever befalls one is fully determined by one's own kamma, then I am not a Buddhist. (So sue me.) > ------ > > KH: What are these things that you are saying befall one? Do they include bankruptcy, limb amputation, divorce, and other things that are commonly regarded as misfortune? > > Or do they include only fleeting vipakka cittas experiencing fleeting, inconsequential, rupas? And is there any "one" that owns those fleeting cittas? I think you could go down the line when speaking of conventional results and say "the rupas cognized as limb amputation," "the namas and rupas cognized as divorce," etc. etc. We can talk about the level of generalizations supplied by thought, and still understand the fact that they are composed of fleeting patterns of rupas and namas which are interpreted as general forms of one kind or another. > ------------------------- > > RE: I'm sure there are other factors involved, just that Buddha did make direct > statements in the sutta quoted earlier and in at least one or more others that > I've seen that the reason that life is short, long, sick, well, etc. is due to > kamma, and sometimes he talked about specific types of deeds involved. > -------------------------- > > KH: Conventional-language suttas should be read after the Abhidhamma-language suttas, not before. Otherwise there will be these interminable, unanswerable questions and no progress in the Dhamma. Unless one sees the translatable aspects of one or the other description - all objects are thought's assemblage of the arising of many rupas, etc., for the purpose of general reference. When talking about the rupas themselves, then Abhidhamma language applies. > --------------- > <. . .> > > RE: As for being a Buddhist, that is a label. If you follow the basic description > of reality and the path that Buddha taught, then you are a follower of The > Buddha, I'd say. If you disagree with him on something, I'll leave it to those > who accept everything that the Buddha may have said or thought on faith to > complain. I don't believe in cloud Gods, which Buddha mentioned as causing the > rain, but I'm not too concerned about that. > ---------------- > > KH: I agree. For what that's worth! :-) It's not the first time we've agreed this week! Either something is wrong or else right -- hard to say which...! Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - #123226 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:47 pm Subject: Relinquishing all Resentment! bhikkhu5 Friends: The Relief of Relinquishing all Resentment! When one's resentment towards any hostile person has been allayed, then one can deliberately turn mind with loving-kindness towards any person: Both the very dear friend, the neutral person and the hostile opponent! By repeated praxis of meditation on infinite friendliness one gradually breaks down the mental barrier of evil opposition thereby accomplishing mental impartiality towards the 4 persons: oneself, the very dear person, the neutral person and the hostile person. Suppose a trainee is sitting in a place with a dear, a neutral, and a hostile person, himself being the 4th. Then bandits come to him and say, 'Venerable friend, give us a person so that we may kill him and use the blood of his throat as an offering'...! When one does not see a single one among these four people suitable to be given to the bandits and one directs mind impartially towards oneself and towards those three people, then one has broken down the barriers... Breaking the Barrier to: Impartiality Therefore the Ancient Nobles said: When he does not discriminates between the 4 persons: That is: Himself, the dear, the neutral, and the hostile one, Then "Skilled" is not the name he gets, nor "Most Friendly", But only "Kind towards all beings". Now when a bhikkhu's barriers towards all the 4 persons have been broken down, Then he treats with equal amity all beings in the whole world; Exalted and distinguished is he, who knows no barriers... Vism 307 <...> Breaking Down the Barriers! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samβhita _/\_ * <...> #123227 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:05 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > . It is not a correspondence with conventional behaviour, since there is no fixed behaviour that equates to breach of the different precepts. (For example, a person may effect the death of another, and thus be in breach of the first precept, by speaking on the phone). > > +++++++ dear Jon do you mean examples like a mobster telling his subordinate on the phone to wack "Fat Joe Bianni" - and following this order "fat joe" is dispatched. Or a man telling his wife by phone to go ahead with the abortion:becuase of her husbands advice she goes to the clinic and gets the abortion. Do you think a bhikkhu would be in breach of parajika if, he while talking with a laywomen by phone sincerely advised and urged her to get an abortion , and she becuase of his urging(by phone) went and had the foetus terminated.? FRom NIna Vna Gorkom: The "Visuddhimagga" (XIV, 62) gives the following definition of speech intimation (See Dhammasangani Ch II, 636, 637, and also Atthasalini I, Book I, Part III, Ch 2, 86,87, and II, Book II, Ch III, 324.): Verbal intimation is the mode (conformation) and the alteration (deformation) in the consciousness-originated earth-element that causes that occurrence of speech utterance which mode and alteration are a condition for the knocking together of clung to matter (According to the commentary to the Visuddhimagga, the "Paramattha Manjusa" (452): "The function (knocking together) of the vocal apparatus (clung to matter)".). Its function is to display intention. It is manifested as the cause of voice in speech. Its proximate cause is the consciousness-originated earth element.... "Dhammasangani" ( Ch II, § 637) states: What is that rupa which is intimation by language (vacivinnatti)? That speech, voice, enunciation, utterance, noise, making noises, language as articulate speech, which expresses a thought whether good, bad, or indeterminate - this is called language. And that intimation, that making known, the state of having made known by language - this is that rupa which constitutes intimation by language. +++++++++++++ So vaci vinnatii can be akusala or kusala, and it can be at the level of akusala kammapatha. I am often amazed by the concenus on DSG that conventional behaviour has no relation with actual dhammas. Robert #123228 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:08 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna epsteinrob Hi Rob K. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > So vaci vinnatii can be akusala or kusala, and it can be at the level of akusala kammapatha. Good info and quotes. > I am often amazed by the concenus on DSG that conventional behaviour has no relation with actual dhammas. Me too. Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - #123229 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:24 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: I mean: > > So vaci vinnatii can be omnditioned by akusala or kusala cittas, and these cittas can be at the level of akusala kammapatha. > I am often amazed by the concenus on DSG that conventional behaviour has no relation with actual dhammas. > Robert > #123230 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:51 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna sarahprocter... Dear Rob K, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > I mean: > > > So vaci vinnatii can be omnditioned by akusala or kusala cittas, and these cittas can be at the level of akusala kammapatha. ... S: Yes, kusala or akusala kamma patha. Just a small point here with regard to the kammapatha involved. it must be mano, kaya or vaci-kamma depending on the nature of the intentional killing. For example, when one animal kills another animal, or if we (deliberately) step on an insect, it would be kaya kamma through kaya dvara. As I understand, when the planning is stronger, it is mano kamma, rather than kaya kamma, even if it is through kaya dvara. Laying a trap would be mano kamma. Ordering someone to kill, as in the examples you gave, would therefore be mano kamma, leading to kayo kamma through vaci dvara. Metta Sarah ===== #123231 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:01 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna jonoabb Hi RobK (and RobE) (123227) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: It is not a correspondence with conventional behaviour, since there is no fixed behaviour that equates to breach of the different precepts. (For example, a person may effect the death of another, and thus be in breach of the first precept, by speaking on the phone). > > > > +++++++ > dear Jon > do you mean examples like a mobster telling his subordinate on the phone to wack "Fat Joe Bianni" - and following this order "fat joe" is dispatched. > Or a man telling his wife by phone to go ahead with the abortion:becuase of her husbands advice she goes to the clinic and gets the abortion. > > Do you think a bhikkhu would be in breach of parajika if, he while talking with a laywomen by phone sincerely advised and urged her to get an abortion , and she becuase of his urging(by phone) went and had the foetus terminated.? > > FRom NIna Vna Gorkom: The "Visuddhimagga" (XIV, 62) gives the following definition of speech intimation (See Dhammasangani Ch II, 636, 637, and also Atthasalini I, Book I, Part III, Ch 2, 86,87, and II, Book II, Ch III, 324.): > > > Verbal intimation is the mode (conformation) and the alteration (deformation) in the consciousness-originated earth-element that causes that occurrence of speech utterance which mode and alteration are a condition for the knocking together of clung to matter (According to the commentary to the Visuddhimagga, the "Paramattha Manjusa" (452): "The function (knocking together) of the vocal apparatus (clung to matter)".). Its function is to display intention. It is manifested as the cause of voice in speech. Its proximate cause is the consciousness-originated earth element.... > > > "Dhammasangani" ( Ch II, § 637) states: > > > What is that rupa which is intimation by language (vacivinnatti)? That speech, voice, enunciation, utterance, noise, making noises, language as articulate speech, which expresses a thought whether good, bad, or indeterminate - this is called language. And that intimation, that making known, the state of having made known by language - this is that rupa which constitutes intimation by language. > +++++++++++++ > > So vaci vinnatii can be akusala or kusala, and it can be at the level of akusala kammapatha. > =============== J: Yes, agreed, and that is part of the point I was making to RobE. > =============== > I am often amazed by the concenus on DSG that conventional behaviour has no relation with actual dhammas. > =============== J: That is not the issue being discussed with RobE. You see, Rob asserts that: - at each stage of enlightenment, certain conventional behaviour is no longer possible (for example, in the case of the sotapanna, killing or stealing); - this means that for the person who becomes sotapanna there is a change in behaviour, as compared to immediately before becoming enlightened; - accordingly, a person's stage of development of the path is reflected in, and in fact is evidenced by, his/her behaviour. RobE has explained that in his view the development of the path begins with an awareness of conventional objects (including, I assume, behaviour), and that it is from such an awareness that the 'underlying dhammas' come to be known. It was in this context that I said that there is no correspondence between conventional behaviour and the development of the path (including the stages of enlightenment). Would be interested in your comments/views on this issue. Jon #123232 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:17 pm Subject: Re: Recollecting by comparison (1) sarahprocter... Dear Han, Thank you for your very interesting presentations. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > Han: The Great Chronicle of Buddhas also explains that there are three types of phalasamaapatti of the Buddha. > > (1) Maggaanantara-phalasamaapatti = in arahatta-magga-viithi of Buddha, immediately after arahattamagga, magga phala javana arise three times. This is maggaanantara-phalasamaapatti. > > (2) Va.la~njana-phalasamaapatti = is the absorption that experiences the bliss of Nibbaana. For this, the Buddha can enter anytime as he wishes. It is said that even during the Teaching, while the audience is saying Sadhu, Sadhu Sadhu, the Buddha can enter into it. But mostly the Buddha enters into it whenever he has the free time after performing each of his daily duties. > > (3) Jiivitasa"nkhaara phalasamaapatti as mentioned in paragraph 164. It is also called "aayusa"nkhaara phalasamaapatti" and "aayupaalana phalasamaapatti" [paalana = protection] > ... S: This is interesting. The object of each must be nibbana, but it seems that the purpose of the last one is particularly to maintain life. Not only the Buddha, of course, but all ariyans, as I understand, who had attained enlightenment with jhanas as basis, can experience phala samapatti repeatedly according to the degree of attainment, but I don't know if 'Jiivitasa"nkhaara phalasamaapatti' applies to all of these to any extent or not. Clearly not as in the Buddha's case. Thank you again for the good quotes, Pali and your helpful comments. Metta Sarah ===== #123233 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:38 pm Subject: Re: Recollecting by comparison (3) sarahprocter... Dear Han, #123128 Again, an excellent presentation. (I usually put these aside to read when I have time to do so at leisure, so always a delayed response....) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > The Venerable Ananda said, "Very well, Venerable Sir," and folding the (Bhagava's) double-layered robe in four, placed it on the ground. The Bhagava sat down on the folded robe laid on the ground and said, "Ananda, go and bring drinking water. I am thirsty. I want to have a drink of water." > > Han: I could visualize the Buddha trudging along the road, sitting down on the roadside with exhaustion, and asking for water to drink. During the prime of his life, it is said that the Buddha possesses the strength of ten Chaddanta-elephants. However, on the last day of his life, on his last journey from Pava to Kusinaaraa, a distance of about three gaavutas (a little more than six miles), he had to sit down in about twenty-five places owing to his weakness and illness. [The Buddha and His Teachings, by Naarada Thera, page 254] > > Again, the sa.mvega I get is that even the Buddha, the foremost among the human beings, devas and brahmas, cannot bring back his youthful strength when he gets old. ... S: Yes, I find this a good reminder too of how no one at all can avoid growing old, weak, sick and so on. We've travelled down the same road (by coach in our case) to Kusinara several times. It's a beautiful, quiet, country road with large, wonderful mango groves and other old trees along the route. Sometimes we've stopped in the grove and there is plenty of time to reflect on the Buddha walking along have breaks as well. Sometimes we're sick and exhausted, but usually at such times there's clinging and aversion, rather than wisdom and samvegga. Sometimes, however, there can be useful reflections, sati and understanding of present dhammas even then - still just seeing of visible object, experiencing of tangible objects through the body-sense - no atta, no "me who is sick" at all. Thank you again for sharing your helpful and very well-researched reflections on the Buddha, death, sickness and the impernance of all conditioned dhammas. "Aniccaa vata sa"nkhaaraa, uppaadavayadhammino; Uppajjitva nirujjhanti, tesa.m vuupasamo sukho" ti" "All conditioned and compounded things (sankhara) are indeed impermanent. Arising and decay are inherent in them. Having come into existence they cease. The realisation of Nibbana on their cessation is blissful peace." Excellent! Metta Sarah ====== #123234 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:49 pm Subject: Re: Vammika Sutta Dear Yawares, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Yawares Sastri" wrote: > Because of this amazing Sutta, bhikkhu Kumara-Kassapa attained arahantship. I did read it 2 times and would like to share it with you all. > *********** > > Vammika Sutta > The Simile of the Ant Hill ... S: I like this sutta as well and I was glad to read your account of Kumara-Kassapa. Thank you for sharing it. Just one small thing - would you mind giving the name of the translator of the sutta and the reference if possible for your stories. For example: MN23 The Simile of the Ant Hill Translated by Sister Uppalavanna Thanks in advance. Metta Sarah ====== #123235 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:00 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > >S: There can be an understanding that the problems in life are not the brief moments of seeing or bodily experience of rupas, but the lobha, dosa and moha on account of these experiences whilst thinking about them, thinking long stories about an idea of what is experienced. > >R: I think you understood what I was saying very well. While the unpleasant rupas of unpleasant vipaka may be unpleasant in the moment to the cittas involved, the proliferations that may arise attendant to those rupas can be much more unpleasant, entertaining thoughts of how horrible everything is and how it may not ever change or get better, with a lot of akusala namas as a consequence. ... S: The vipaka may not even be "unpleasant". For example, at any moment of seeing or hearing of unpleasant rupas, the feeling is neutral. It is called akusala vipaka because it's the result of akusla kamma, that's all. Yes, as you point out, it is all the thinking with dosa afterwards which is the real unpleasantness. Likewise, at moment of seeing pleasant visible objects, again the feeling is neutral, but the proliferations following such moments with attachment are what cause the trouble! ... >And as I understand it, such proliferations will act as kamma to cause further negative moments in the future. ... S: Usually, there's just akusala thinking, proliferation, accumulating more akusala. It is only kamma patha which will bring results in future, when particular deeds are performed through body or speech, such as those causing harm to others which you've been discussing here. ... > > I guess the controversial part is whether having the conceptual understanding that experiences now are vipaka and not circumstantially-based can reduce the degree of proliferations and extended akusala reactions. It seems to me that having that correct perspective could cause one to tolerate the present experiences in a different way. .... S: No reason to blame others or circumstances for the experiences in a day, no matter what comes. Very gradually, through the development of right understanding, we become less susceptible to the worldly conditions, to the ideas of worldly events - such as politics and natural disaster as being the cause of the problems in life. Ignorance is the cause of ongoing life in samsara. Without a growing understanding of paramattha dhammas, there's no way out at all. Metta Sarah ====== #123236 From: han tun Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Recollecting by comparison (1) hantun1 Dear Sarah, First, I would like to mention about the Burmese books called Mahaa Buddhava.msa (The Great Chronicle of Buddhas) by Mingun Sayadaw U Vicittasaaraabhiva.msa. It consists of 8 books as follows. Vol 1 (a) = 446 pages Vol 1 (b) = 596 pages Vol 2 = 742 pages Vol 3 = 792 pages Vol 4 = 732 pages Vol 5 = 824 pages Vol 6 (a) = 683 pages Vol 6 (b) = 456 pages Total = 5,271 pages. Only a few pages have been translated into English. http://www.thisismyanmar.com/nibbana/gotama/gcob.htm About this topic I am reading Vol 5. --------------- Sarah: This is interesting. The object of each must be nibbana, but it seems that the purpose of the last one is particularly to maintain life. Not only the Buddha, of course, but all ariyans, as I understand, who had attained enlightenment with jhanas as basis, can experience phala samapatti repeatedly according to the degree of attainment, but I don't know if 'Jiivitasa"nkhaara phalasamaapatti' applies to all of these to any extent or not. Clearly not as in the Buddha's case. ---------- Han: First, please allow me to present what phalasamaapatti is. In A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma on page 363, Guide to § 42. The attainment of fruition (phalasamaapatti) is a meditative attainment by which a noble disciple enters into supramundane absorption with Nibbaana as object. It is attained for the purpose of experiencing the bliss of Nibbaana here and now. The cittas that occur in this attainment are the fruition cittas corresponding to the disciple's level realization. Thus each of the four grades of noble individuals can enter their own proper fruition attainment: the stream-enterer attaining the fruition attainment of stream-entry, etc. The attainment is reached by first making the resolution to attain fruition and then developing in sequence the insight knowledges beginning with knowledge of rise and fall. (See Vism. XXIII, 6-15.) Han: Next, please allow me to present how arahatta-phalasamaapatti is attained as described in The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma by Dr Mehm Tin Mon. When one of the three characteristics of existence enters the avenue of the mind-door of an arahant, the life-continuum vibrates twice as bhava"nga-calaana and bhava"ngupaccheda and becomes arrested. The manodvaaraavajjana considers the object and decides whether it is good or bad. Then one of the four ~naa.na-sampayutta-mahaa-kusala cittas, observing the tilakkha.na object, functions three times as parikamma (omit in tikkha-pa~n~naa person), upacaara and anuloma, and, observing Nibbaana, functions once as vodaana. After that arahatta-phala citta, observing Nibbaana, functions as appanaa-javana many times as long as the person wishes up to seven days. Then bhava"nga cittas sink into life-continuum and the person arises from phala-samaapatti. Han: Next, please allow me to recall the three 3 types of arahatta-phalasamaapatti of Buddha that I had mentioned. (1) Maggaanantara-phalasamaapatti (2) Va.la~njana-phalasamaapatti (3) Jiivitasa"nkhaara phalasamaapatti ---------- Han: You are correct to say that all ariyans, who had attained enlightenment with jhaanas as basis, can experience phala samaapatti repeatedly according to the degree of attainment. But I would like to add that Arahants with not only jhaana as basis, but also vipassanaa (or both) as basis can enter into phalasamaapatti. Please refer to Dr Mehm Tin Mon above. The Great Chronicle of Buddhas does not exactly say so, but what I gather is that arahatta-phalasamaapatti of Arahants is the same as Va.la~njana-phalasamaapatti of Buddha. But the "jiivita-sa"nkhaara phalasamaapatti" or "aayu-sa"nkhaara phalasamaapatti" or "aayu-paalana phalasamaapatti" is unique to the Buddha. The Great Chronicle of Buddhas says that this kind of arahatta-phalasamaapatti is based on *Mahaa* vipassanaa developed through Ruupa-sattaka and Naama-sattaka methods. The emphasis is placed on *Mahaa* vipassanaa, not ordinary vipassanaa. But I do not know what Ruupa-sattaka and Naama-sattaka methods are. The book does not explain. It seems that the author took it for granted that the reader knows what these are. Another important point mentioned in the book is the *making the resolution* by the Buddha before he entered into this kind of phalasamaapatti. The Buddha resolved that this disease does not recur for ten months up to the full-moon day of the month of Kason (May). with metta and respect, Han --- On Wed, 3/14/12, sarah wrote: S: This is interesting. The object of each must be nibbana, but it seems that the purpose of the last one is particularly to maintain life. Not only the Buddha, of course, but all ariyans, as I understand, who had attained enlightenment with jhanas as basis, can experience phala samapatti repeatedly according to the degree of attainment, but I don't know if 'Jiivitasa"nkhaara phalasamaapatti' applies to all of these to any extent or not. Clearly not as in the Buddha's case. #123237 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:07 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi RobK (and RobE) > > (123227) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > > > J: It is not a correspondence with conventional behaviour, since there is no fixed behaviour that equates to breach of the different precepts. (For example, a person may effect the death of another, and thus be in breach of the first precept, by speaking on the phone). > > > > > > +++++++ > > dear Jon > > do you mean examples like a mobster telling his subordinate on the phone to wack "Fat Joe Bianni" - and following this order "fat joe" is dispatched. > > J: That is not the issue being discussed with RobE. You see, Rob asserts that: > - at each stage of enlightenment, certain conventional behaviour is no longer possible (for example, in the case of the sotapanna, killing or stealing); > - this means that for the person who becomes sotapanna there is a change in behaviour, as compared to immediately before becoming enlightened; > - accordingly, a person's stage of development of the path is reflected in, and in fact is evidenced by, his/her behaviour. > > RobE has explained that in his view the development of the path begins with an awareness of conventional objects (including, I assume, behaviour), and that it is from such an awareness that the 'underlying dhammas' come to be known. > > It was in this context that I said that there is no correspondence between conventional behaviour and the development of the path (including the stages of enlightenment). > > Would be interested in your comments/views on this issue. > > Jon > Dear Jon I guess if Joe's boss "Monkey Arms Alberto" (not to be called to his face)became a sotapanna he would no longer be ordering hits, hence a subtle change would be clear to some of his peers. robert #123238 From: han tun Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Recollecting by comparison (3) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for yopur feed-back. I really appreciate it. with metta and respect, Han --- On Wed, 3/14/12, sarah wrote: S: Yes, I find this a good reminder too of how no one at all can avoid growing old, weak, sick and so on. We've travelled down the same road (by coach in our case) to Kusinara several times. It's a beautiful, quiet, country road with large, wonderful mango groves and other old trees along the route. Sometimes we've stopped in the grove and there is plenty of time to reflect on the Buddha walking along have breaks as well. Sometimes we're sick and exhausted, but usually at such times there's clinging and aversion, rather than wisdom and samvegga. Sometimes, however, there can be useful reflections, sati and understanding of present dhammas even then - still just seeing of visible object, experiencing of tangible objects through the body-sense - no atta, no "me who is sick" at all. Thank you again for sharing your helpful and very well-researched reflections on the Buddha, death, sickness and the impernance of all conditioned dhammas. "Aniccaa vata sa"nkhaaraa, uppaadavayadhammino; Uppajjitva nirujjhanti, tesa.m vuupasamo sukho" ti" "All conditioned and compounded things (sankhara) are indeed impermanent. Arising and decay are inherent in them. Having come into existence they cease. The realisation of Nibbana on their cessation is blissful peace." Excellent! Metta Sarah ====== #123239 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] stream entry path can last long time. nilovg Dear Alex, Op 14-mrt-2012, om 0:37 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > What the suttas say is that person on stream entry path does not > necessary happen only for one moment. One can be on the path until > death. > -------- N: It depends on whether the word path is used in a figurative sense, the development of right understanding leading to enlightenment, or, just the moment of magga-citta, path-consciousness, that arises only once and eradicates defilements depending on the stage that has been reached. The sotapatti magga-citta arises only once. ----- Nina. #123240 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:31 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna jonoabb Hi Rob K --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > J: You see, Rob asserts that: > > - at each stage of enlightenment, certain conventional behaviour is no longer possible (for example, in the case of the sotapanna, killing or stealing); > > - this means that for the person who becomes sotapanna there is a change in behaviour, as compared to immediately before becoming enlightened; > > - accordingly, a person's stage of development of the path is reflected in, and in fact is evidenced by, his/her behaviour. > > > > RobE has explained that in his view the development of the path begins with an awareness of conventional objects (including, I assume, behaviour), and that it is from such an awareness that the 'underlying dhammas' come to be known. > > > > It was in this context that I said that there is no correspondence between conventional behaviour and the development of the path (including the stages of enlightenment). > > > > Would be interested in your comments/views on this issue. > > > > Jon > > > Dear Jon > I guess if Joe's boss "Monkey Arms Alberto" (not to be called to his face)became a sotapanna he would no longer be ordering hits, hence a subtle change would be clear to some of his peers. > =============== J: There are of course instances in the texts of a more-than-subtle change in behaviour upon attaining enlightenment (Angulimala for one), but there are also numerous instances where it seems that no perceptible change occurred and the person's peers were unaware that enlightenment had occurred. I'm sure Rob E would be interested to hear your views on his ideas regarding a correspondence between conventional behaviour and enlightenment. Jon #123241 From: han tun Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:44 pm Subject: To Nina and Sarah hantun1 Dear Nina and Sarah, I know you like Vism VIII, 39. But I do not know whether you have the Paa.li text. So I print below. 176. Kha.naparittatoti paramatthato hi atiparitto sattaana.m jiivitakkha.no ekacittappavattimattoyeva. Yathaa naama rathacakka.m pavattamaanampi ekeneva nemippadesena pavattati, ti.t.thamaanampi ekeneva ti.t.thati, evameva ekacittakkha.nika.m sattaana.m jiivita.m. Tasmi.m citte niruddhamatte satto niruddhoti vuccati. Yathaaha "atiite cittakkha.ne jiivittha, na jiivati, na jiivissati. Anaagate cittakkha.ne na jiivittha, na jiivati, jiivissati. Paccuppanne cittakkha.ne na jiivittha, jiivati, na jiivissati. 39. 8. As to the shortness of the moment: in the ultimate sense the life-moment of living beings is extremely short, being only as much as the occurrence of a single conscious moment. Just as a chariot wheel, when it is rolling, rolls [that is, touches the ground] only on one point of [the circumference of] its tyre, and, when it is at rest, rests only on one point, so too, the life of living beings lasts only for a single conscious moment. When that consciousness has ceased, the being is said to have ceased, according as it is said: 'In a past conscious moment he did live, not he does live, not he will live. In a future conscious moment not he did live, not he does live, he will live. In the present conscious moment not he did live, he does live, not he will live. ---------- "Jiivita.m attabhaavo ca, sukhadukkhaa ca kevalaa; Ekacittasamaayuttaa, lahu so vattate kha.no. "Ye niruddhaa marantassa, ti.t.thamaanassa vaa idha; Sabbepi sadisaa khandhaa, gataa appa.tisandhikaa. "Anibbattena na jaato, paccuppannena jiivati; Cittabha"ngaa mato loko, pa~n~natti paramatthiyaa"ti. (mahaani. 39); "Life, person, pleasure, pain just these alone Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. "Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive Are all alike, gone never to return. "No [world is] born if [consciousness is] not Produced; when that is present, then it lives; When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead: The highest sense this concept will allow" (Nd.1,42). ---------- Eva.m kha.naparittato mara.na.m anussaritabba.m. This is how death should be recollected as to the shortness of the moment. ---------- with metta and respect, Han #123242 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:12 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Recollecting by comparison (1) sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > Han: Next, please allow me to recall the three 3 types of arahatta-phalasamaapatti of Buddha that I had mentioned. > (1) Maggaanantara-phalasamaapatti > (2) Va.la~njana-phalasamaapatti > (3) Jiivitasa"nkhaara phalasamaapatti > > ---------- > The Great Chronicle of Buddhas does not exactly say so, but what I gather is that arahatta-phalasamaapatti of Arahants is the same as Va.la~njana-phalasamaapatti of Buddha. ... S: Yes, I think the nature of phalasamaapatti is the same. > > But the "jiivita-sa"nkhaara phalasamaapatti" or "aayu-sa"nkhaara phalasamaapatti" or "aayu-paalana phalasamaapatti" is unique to the Buddha. The Great Chronicle of Buddhas says that this kind of arahatta-phalasamaapatti is based on *Mahaa* vipassanaa developed through Ruupa-sattaka and Naama-sattaka methods. The emphasis is placed on *Mahaa* vipassanaa, not ordinary vipassanaa. But I do not know what Ruupa-sattaka and Naama-sattaka methods are. The book does not explain. It seems that the author took it for granted that the reader knows what these are. > > Another important point mentioned in the book is the *making the resolution* by the Buddha before he entered into this kind of phalasamaapatti. The Buddha resolved that this disease does not recur for ten months up to the full-moon day of the month of Kason (May). .... S: I have found quite a lot of the relevant detail of what is being referred to above in the commentary to the Mahaaparinibaana Sutta, trans by Yang-Gyu An (PTS) which is relevant. Please see what you think: "...Out of compassion for them. He, they say, thought thus: 'I will enter parinibbaana in only ten months. If they go far away, they will not be able to see me at this time of parinibbaana. Then they would have this regret: 'The Master, entering parinibbaana, did not even allow us to be aware of it. If we had known it, we would not have gone to live so far away.' But if they will stay all around Vesaali, they will come eight times a month and listen to the teachings and receive the Sugata's advice.' So he did not dismiss them. " 'Severe': harsh. 'Illness': unusual sickness. 'Strong': violet. 'Deadly': able to make one reach the presence of death. 'He endured, being mindful and attentive': He established mindfulness (sati) very well and endured by making a determination with knowledge (~naa.na). "Unperturbed': He endured without feeling pain or suffering, by stopping the cycling in the form of continuous sensation. 'Without addressing': without summoning. 'Without giving notice' means without informing, without giving admonition or instruction. 'By strength': both by previous strength and by strength from the attainment of fruition (phala-samaapatti). 'Having suppressed': having stopped. 'Life-impetus' (jiivita-sa"nkhaara): Here life itself is the life-impetus by which life is propelled: when interrupted it is stabilised by making a link. Life-impetus also can be the factor which is the attainment of fruition; that is what the text here refers to. 'Having resolved on' (adhi.t.thaaya): this is the meaning in brief: by concentrating on it and by keeping it going, let me achieve attainment of fruition which is capable of stabilising life. "However, has the Blessed One not achieved the attainment of fruition before? Yes, he has. But that was a temporary attainment (kha.nika-samaapatti); temporary attainment suppresses pain while one is within that [state of] attainment. As soon as one emerges from the attainment, the pain again covers one's body as duckweed broken by the fall of a piece of wood or gravel again covers water. "But the attainment achieved in the form of that great insight (mahaavipassanaa) which frees the material and immaterial septads (ruupa-sattaka.m aruupa-sattaka.m) [*See details in Vism 618-28] from all thickets and entanglements suppresses pain very well. Just as when a man plunges into a pond and thoroughly removes the duckweed with his hands and feet, it re-covers the water again after a long time, so, when one emerges from that state, pain arises only after a long time. "Thus the Blessed One on that day, as when he established his new insight (abhinava-vipassanaa) while sitting cross-legged under the Mahaabodhi tree, freed the material and immaterial septads from all thickets and entanglements and mixed in fourteen ways and suppressed pain through great insight. He achieved that attainment, thinking, 'Let it not arise for ten months.' The pains which were suppressed by the attainment did not indeed occur for ten months." Thank you again for helping me to consider this topic further. ***** Metta Sarah p.s I also looked in the ancient Buddhava.msa and also its commentary, the Madhuratthavilaasinii by Buddhadatta Thera, (trans as The Clarifier of Sweet Meaning (PTS)), but couldn't find anything relevant there on this topic. ===== #123243 From: han tun Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Recollecting by comparison (1) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Yes, very relevant information. Thank you very much. I will try to digest it slowly. with metta and respect, Han --- On Wed, 3/14/12, sarah wrote: I have found quite a lot of the relevant detail of what is being referred to above in the commentary to the Mahaaparinibaana Sutta, trans by Yang-Gyu An (PTS) which is relevant. Please see what you think: #123244 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:32 pm Subject: Re: How to learn Pali en Sutta's ptaus1 Hi Norbert, > N: I would like to learn pali and more to learn to recite and understand some Sutta's. If anyone has a suggestion on how and where to start. For example some short and easy sutta's so i can learn both at the same time.. In addition to info you already got, a few links if you don't know about them already: - Dhammapada with pali, english translation, grammatical analysis and audio samples of each word: http://buddhism.lib.ntu.edu.tw/BDLM/en/lesson/pali/lesson_pali3.jsp - learning pali audio course by Bhikkhu Bodhi, with readings in pali of the selected sutta passages: http://bodhimonastery.org/a-course-in-the-pali-language.html - learning pali books and exercise solutions: http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/palidd/ - related resources on learning pali: http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/ - further related resources (you'd need to become a member of the group): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/files/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/links Best wishes pt #123245 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:44 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: How to learn Pali en Sutta's ptaus1 Dear Han, > Han: I can understand Paa.li texts because I have English translation or Burmese translation or both to match with the Paa.li text. I was wondering if you perhaps know - have the commentaries and subcommentaries been translated in Burmese language? And are they translated in full, or just bits and pieces? And would those be in some special form of archaic Burmese language, or is it in the form you could hear people speaking and learning nowadays? Thank you. Sorry if my questions sound a bit absurd, I don't know anything about Burmese language at the moment. Best wishes, pt #123246 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/13/2012 5:45:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Or do they include only fleeting vipakka cittas experiencing fleeting, inconsequential, rupas? And is there any "one" that owns those fleeting cittas? =============================== Nature is one of them. Remember floods, earthquakes, etc? In any case, I don't want to argue. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #123247 From: han tun Date: Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How to learn Pali en Sutta's hantun1 Dear pt, The Paa.li text of all Muula Tipi.taka, A.t.thakathaa, Tiikaa that were approved by the Sixth Buddhist Council are available in Burmese script. All the translations into Burmese were also done by various Committees of venerable monks and lay scholars, during the Sixth Buddhist Council, and the translations were approved by the Council. They are in modern Burmese language, easily understood by everybody. All of them are available in Yangon. But I have only selected copies with me in Bangkok. with metta, Han --- On Wed, 3/14/12, ptaus1 wrote: From: ptaus1 Subject: [dsg] Re: How to learn Pali en Sutta's To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, March 14, 2012, 7:44 PM Dear Han, > Han: I can understand Paa.li texts because I have English translation or Burmese translation or both to match with the Paa.li text. I was wondering if you perhaps know - have the commentaries and subcommentaries been translated in Burmese language? And are they translated in full, or just bits and pieces? And would those be in some special form of archaic Burmese language, or is it in the form you could hear people speaking and learning nowadays? Thank you. Sorry if my questions sound a bit absurd, I don't know anything about Burmese language at the moment. Best wishes, pt #123248 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:26 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna rjkjp1 Thanks, very interesting Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Rob K, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > I mean: > > > > So vaci vinnatii can be omnditioned by akusala or kusala cittas, and these cittas can be at the level of akusala kammapatha. > ... > S: Yes, kusala or akusala kamma patha. > > Just a small point here with regard to the kammapatha involved. it must be mano, kaya or vaci-kamma depending on the nature of the intentional killing. > > For example, when one animal kills another animal, or if we (deliberately) step on an insect, it would be kaya kamma through kaya dvara. > > As I understand, when the planning is stronger, it is mano kamma, rather than kaya kamma, > even if it is through kaya dvara. Laying a trap would be mano kamma. > > Ordering someone to kill, as in the examples you gave, would therefore be mano kamma, > leading to kayo kamma through vaci dvara. > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > #123249 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Nina and Sarah nilovg Dear Han, Thank you very much, I cannot reach the Pali so easily. And you added my favorite: Life, person, pleasure, pain just these alone Join in one conscious moment that flicks by... To me this is the essence, but no contradiction between paramatthas and our ordinary, social life. As Kh Sujin always stresses: satipa.t.thaana should be developed very naturally. This is what attracted me from the beginning. Nothing forced, like someone who wrote to me long ago: my meditation life and my ordinary daily life. ----- Nina. Op 14-mrt-2012, om 11:44 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Dear Nina and Sarah, > > I know you like Vism VIII, 39. > > "Jiivita.m attabhaavo ca, sukhadukkhaa ca kevalaa; > Ekacittasamaayuttaa, lahu so vattate kha.no. > > " #123250 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace upasaka_howard ;-)) In a message dated 3/13/2012 11:12:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard. --- In _dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com) , upasaka@... wrote: > HCW: > :-) I DO consider myself a follower of the Buddha - and doing the > best I can. Me too - cloud gods notwithstanding. ;-) Best, Rob E. #123251 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:05 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna epsteinrob Hi Jon, and Rob K. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > =============== Rob K.: > > I am often amazed by the concenus on DSG that conventional behaviour has no relation with actual dhammas. > > =============== > > J: That is not the issue being discussed with RobE. I believe it is the issue, and that is the case I've been trying to make for a very long time. The stages of enlightenment just provide a convenient example of a correspondence which exists in the teachings. It is not me who is asserting that a sotapanna *cannot* be a householder. I am starting with the statement that was made on dsg that this is the case, and I believe it was made by you, although I no longer remember the original context. If you agree that a sotapanna *cannot* continue life as a householder, then that is the only correspondence that interests me in this particular discussion. I am *not* saying that giving up the householder's life is evidence of being a sotapanna, as you state a little further down, or that conventional objects are necessarily evidence of a particular stage of development on the path. I accept your statement that people who are not sotapanna could demonstrate great sila, or be a monk, or do other kusala things for other reasons. The only point is that it is asserted in the teachings that a sotapanna will give up the householder's life forever, and cannot backslide in other areas as well, and I am saying that logically speaking if there are *any* conventional attributes that accompany the stage of the sotapanna, then that shows that there is a correspondence between the dhammas involved in being a sotapanna, the defilements that have been abolished, and certain conventional behaviors that the sotapanna is no longer capable of. All of your counter examples are about other things, and do not refute this single, simple point. If the sotapanna cannot engage in certain conventional behaviors, that means that those conventional behaviors do indeed reflect the sotapanna's dhammas, because otherwise there would be *no* relation between being a sotapanna and *any* restrictions on conventional behaviors. Even if you assert -- with which I might agree -- that the reason those conventional behaviors are no longer possible is that the cetana and other factors that would lead to such behaviors will no longer arise or have been eradicated, I would then say that this means that the conventional behaviors do have a relationship to that cetana and those other factors. One way or the other, the correspondence is there between the dhammas of the sotapanna and certain behaviors which the sotapanna cannot or will not ever do. > that You see, Rob asserts that: > - at each stage of enlightenment, certain conventional behaviour is no longer possible (for example, in the case of the sotapanna, killing or stealing); I do not assert this. This is a fact, is it not? Do you now dispute that at each stage of enlightenment, certain behaviors and activities will no longer arise and are in fact impossible? Is it not the case that at a given stage of enlightenment, the enlightened is no longer capable of lying, etc.? Is this not true? If it is true, then it is not correct to say that I am asserting this. I am in fact *not* asserting this but taking it as an agreed-upon given. If that is not the case, please correct my understanding. > - this means that for the person who becomes sotapanna there is a change in behaviour, as compared to immediately before becoming enlightened; I did not assert this either. It is possible that the change in behavior took place before becoming a sotapanna. Again, this is a distraction. The only point is that *once* having become a sotapanna, such behavior is no longer possible. It is not an assertion of when the change in behavior may take place, or even whether this is behavior that has lasted the whole lifetime. The point is that there is a permanent correspondence between the sotapanna stage and the inability to backslide. Whether or not such behavior ever appeared before is not significant. > - accordingly, a person's stage of development of the path is reflected in, and in fact is evidenced by, his/her behaviour. I did not say this either. I said that there is a correspondence between the dhammas and destruction of defilements of the stages of enlightenment and the conventional behavior that is or is not possible for that person. I did not say that such behavior is proof of anything, or is a demonstration of the stage of enlightenment, *only* that such behavior that is prohibited by the stage cannot arise again, and that this shows a *correspondence* between that stage's dhammas and the conventional behavior involved. It does not matter whether anyone observes it or not, but just that such correspondence exists. > RobE has explained that in his view the development of the path begins with an awareness of conventional objects (including, I assume, behaviour), and that it is from such an awareness that the 'underlying dhammas' come to be known. When did I say this? I may have said something like this at some time in the past, but have said nothing like this in the current discussion. And I don't believe -- I could be wrong -- that I ever said that "the development of the path BEGINS with an awareness of conventional objects. I *have* said that I believe it is possible to start with an understanding of conventional objects and then see more of the dhammas that are involved more directly as panna and sati increase. So again, I think there is a relation, but did not say the direct statement that you said I did, as far as I know. I think it is perfectly possible, and probably desirable, to discern dhammas first. I don't think I ever said it is dependent on studying a conventional object first. > It was in this context that I said that there is no correspondence between conventional behaviour and the development of the path (including the stages of enlightenment). Context aside, I don't think it is correct to say that there is no correspondence between dhammas and conventional activities and behaviors, if in fact the stages of enlightenment clearly demonstrate that conventional behaviors will reflect the stage of enlightenment. It's clearly the case that conventional behaviors do correspond, are affected or prohibited by the stage of enlightenment, and thus reflect in one way or another the stage of enlightenment involved. Do you still believe that even this kind of obvious correspondence -- based on the *fact* that the conventional behavior is no longer possible -- does not exist? Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #123252 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 moellerdieter Dear Nina, you wrote: 'N: Supramundane truth, truth that is lokuttara, this is nibbaana. Lokuttara citta experiences nibbaana. All that is not lokuttara is lokiya, worldly. D: I agree ..the state of consciousness experiencing nibbana is not of this world .. but what about magga and phala? ATI glossary :'lokuttara: Transcendent; supramundane (see magga, phala, and nibbana).' Nyanatiloka :' lokuttara: 'supermundane', is a term for the 4 paths and 4 fruitions of Sotapatti, etc. (s. ariya-puggala), with Nibbana as ninth. Hence one speaks of '9 supermundane things' (nava-lokuttara dhamma). Cf. prec.' Free Dict. supermundane : 'of or relating to what is elevated above earthly things' One may indeed question whether magga and phala isn't above the world, i.e. supermundane, the highest of lokiya, whereas nibbana is beyond /transcendent = supramundane , lokuttara In such way we would speak of the supermundane Noble Path , the Noble Ones are developing/passing. However if - as both sources indicate - the term lokuttara includes magga and phala besides nibbana , there is the difficulty of disctinction. Is the term (and grouping) nava -lokuttara dhamma canoncial or commentary? N: Citta that is lokiya experiences paramattha dhammas, ultimate realities and concepts or ideas. Concepts we can call conventional truth, such as a table, a person.. Ultimate realities: visible object, hardness, seeing. Paramattha dhammas have their own unalterable characteristics. We can change their names, but their characteristics do not change. Seeing is always seeing even if we call it by another name, be it in German, in Thai. We experience ultimate realities all the time, even now. But we do not realize that they are paramattha dhammas, we just let them pass, absorbed as we are in concepts, stories about people and situations, conventional truth. We think on account of what is seen about this beautiful springflower that is just coming out. We forget that there must have been seeing, the experience of what appears through eyesense, only that. Otherwise we could not think of a flower. D: I don't recall that you commented the proposition ' When you experiencing something directly without thinking that's Paramattha' to me it sounds fine and sinmple.. Concept all that what is given a name (which gives meaning of the experience ) N: I wonder whether it makes sense to you that I changed around the idea of mundane /conventional and supramundane /absolute , there is absolute in the mundane and also conventional in the mundane. ------ D: it makes a lot of sense , Nina .. because only by that we can find common gound in discussion. We need to agree on definition of the terms .. not easy even if we can trace them in context. I am thinking of ultimate in respect to nibbana , absolute:the analyses of experience/citta , conventional : the event, the social environment ,persons. ..so far for now .. looking forward to your comments with Metta Dieter #123253 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:56 pm Subject: Re: Vammika Sutta Dear Sarah, Thank you for telling me, sometimes I forgot to look for the name of the translator. Cherry blossom in Osaka(YouTube clip) for you and Nina It reminds me of my first training flight to Osaka when I was 21 years old working for Thai International Airlines. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tu894odxaIw Sincerely, yawares --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: <...> > S: I like this sutta as well and I was glad to read your account of Kumara-Kassapa. Thank you for sharing it. > > Just one small thing - would you mind giving the name of the translator of the sutta and the reference if possible for your stories. > > For example: MN23 The Simile of the Ant Hill > Translated by Sister Uppalavanna <...> #123254 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:50 pm Subject: The Story of Khallatiya [ @YouTube ] yawares1 Dear Members, I watched this cute/funny story @ YouTube. I tried to find it online but I could not. So I had to write the story by myself, please forgive my bad English. *************** Khallatiya Once upon a time, a merchant and his crews was sailing his cargo-ship across the ocean. Suddenly they saw a beautiful celestial castle, they anchored the ship near the castle. Inside the castle they saw a pretty angel with beautiful long black hair sitting there all alone. The angel told the merchant and his crews not to come close because she had no clothes on. The merchant wanted to offer her precious Kasi-clothes; but she reclined the offer, saying that it was because of her past evil deeds, she only had to cover her body with her long black hair. However, she suggested that the merchant give the clothes to a Buddhist devotee upasaka and ask him to donate merits to her; only then she could receive the merits. It happened that there was a crew on board who truly devoted to the Buddha, so the merchant did what the naked angel had advised. Then, like a miracle, the angel appeared to them with devine clothes, so stunningly beautiful! The angel then entrusted the merchant to pay homage to the Buddha, and to give some of her merit-devine-clothes, water, jewel and rice to the Buddha when they sailed back to Savatthi. After the long voyage, the merchant and his crews went to pay homage to the Buddha at Jetavanaram. They told him the strange event about the naked angel and her celestial castle in the middle of the ocean. The merchant gave the angel's devine gifts to the Buddha and asked him about her past evil deeds. Khallitiya's past life: Once she was born in Benares. Her beauty and pretty long black hair made her famous throughout the land. People made her a beauty queen with duty of carrying big bouquet of flowers in special ceremony events. One day, her best friend who secretly envied her so much, put poison herbs on her hair that caused her baldness. She was so ashamed of her look and ran away to a new town where she sold sesame-oil for a living. She was so poor that she did anything she could to make money. For example, she sold alcohol beverages to townsmen and stole their money, jewelry and clothes while they were drunk. She became richer. Then one day an old bhikkhu came for alms-food near her place. She was so happy to do merits; she gave delicious foods to the bhikkhu and made a wish that she had long beautiful black hair again. After herlong life, she was then reborn as this naked angel. ******************** Love Buddha's dhamma, yawares #123255 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:56 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > S: The vipaka may not even be "unpleasant". For example, at any moment of seeing or hearing of unpleasant rupas, the feeling is neutral. It is called akusala vipaka because it's the result of akusla kamma, that's all. Is the vedana for such moments always neutral? I wonder why that is...? Wouldn't a dhamma that was akusala tend to be something that would cause negative vedana? I don't think I quite get that. > Yes, as you point out, it is all the thinking with dosa afterwards which is the real unpleasantness. In any case, the attached negative thinking will cause the akusala to keep going. I guess you could have even something that causes negative vedana, and still have no negative proliferation follow it if there is detachment...? ... > S: Usually, there's just akusala thinking, proliferation, accumulating more akusala. It is only kamma patha which will bring results in future, when particular deeds are performed through body or speech, such as those causing harm to others which you've been discussing here. That has an interesting intersection with my conversation with Jon on the relation between conventional activity and dhammas. I guess the akusala kamma patha is produced as rupas...? A little unclear how the kamma patha produces the vipaka, as opposed to the cetana which I understand as kamma itself. I guess it is the cetana that is represented by the kamma patha that is the actual kamma involved...? [Sorry for confusion, but it's an interesting area...] ... > S: No reason to blame others or circumstances for the experiences in a day, no matter what comes. Very gradually, through the development of right understanding, we become less susceptible to the worldly conditions, to the ideas of worldly events - such as politics and natural disaster as being the cause of the problems in life. Ignorance is the cause of ongoing life in samsara. Without a growing understanding of paramattha dhammas, there's no way out at all. So in a sense we are enclosed in a vipaka bubble made up of all experiences produced by the past - not really experiencing what is happening now at all...? If that is so, does panna have to break through the stream of vipaka to experience a current dhamma? Or is it the dhammas of vipaka that the panna has to see? [Very confused today, but very interesting area...] Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #123256 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:59 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna epsteinrob Hi Rob K., and Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > I guess if Joe's boss "Monkey Arms Alberto" (not to be called to his face)became a sotapanna he would no longer be ordering hits, hence a subtle change would be clear to some of his peers. When the Mafia guys become stream enterers it creates untold confusion among the hit men and the contractors that they normally threaten and pay off. Once they find out that "Monkey Arms" is no longer ordering any hits, all hell will break loose. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #123257 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:06 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: There are of course instances in the texts of a more-than-subtle change in behaviour upon attaining enlightenment (Angulimala for one), but there are also numerous instances where it seems that no perceptible change occurred and the person's peers were unaware that enlightenment had occurred. I wish you would address the single point that the sotapanna *cannot* backslide to certain kinds of conventional behaviors, including, as I understand it, living as a householder. It is not important whether there is a change or not in behavior when the person becomes a stream enterer. The single point is that there is no backsliding and that certain behaviors will never be done again. That is all that is needed to show the correspondence between conventional behavior corresponding dhammas. It doesn't matter whether anyone notices the sotapanna's behavior or not, or whether there is a "new change in behavior." It's beside the point. The point is that certain behaviors cannot be done by the sotapanna and that is where the correspondence lies. It's a single point, with a very clear simple logic. If we could address that by itself, it would be helpful. > I'm sure Rob E would be interested to hear your views on his ideas regarding a correspondence between conventional behaviour and enlightenment. I believe that Rob K. agrees with me on this. His recent posts indicates that he agrees that conventional activity does reflect the underlying dhammas. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #123258 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:57 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: There are of course instances in the texts of a more-than-subtle change in behaviour upon attaining enlightenment (Angulimala for one), but there are also numerous instances where it seems that no perceptible change occurred and the person's peers were unaware that enlightenment had occurred. > > I wish you would address the single point that the sotapanna *cannot* backslide to certain kinds of conventional behaviors, including, as I understand it, living as a householder. Dear Robert it is the arahat who can never live again as a householder.sotapannas can't kill even an ant, or doubt the Buddha's teaching, or believe in a self, etc robert #123259 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:49 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna epsteinrob Hi Rob K. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > > > J: There are of course instances in the texts of a more-than-subtle change in behaviour upon attaining enlightenment (Angulimala for one), but there are also numerous instances where it seems that no perceptible change occurred and the person's peers were unaware that enlightenment had occurred. > > > > I wish you would address the single point that the sotapanna *cannot* backslide to certain kinds of conventional behaviors, including, as I understand it, living as a householder. > Dear Robert > it is the arahat who can never live again as a householder.sotapannas can't kill even an ant, or doubt the Buddha's teaching, or believe in a self, etc Thank you, Rob - good to know what is involved in those stages. Certainly not killing an ant makes the point just as well - the development of certain dhammas and the eradication of various defilements is reflected in conventional acts and prohibitions. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #123260 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:15 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Rob K. > > > Thank you, Rob - good to know what is involved in those stages. Certainly not killing an ant makes the point just as well - the development of certain dhammas and the eradication of various defilements is reflected in conventional acts and prohibitions. > > Best, > Rob E. Dear Rob I think where you go the idea about householer and sotapanna is the fact (according to Commentary) that if a bhikkhu becomes a sotapanna he wound never disrobe and return to household life. But a layman who becomes a sotapanna would be just as likely to live his normal life as a layman, with wife(or wives) and children. But no more wacking nuisances. robert #123261 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:53 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna epsteinrob Hi Rob K. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Rob > I think where you go the idea about householer and sotapanna is the fact (according to Commentary) that if a bhikkhu becomes a sotapanna he wound never disrobe and return to household life. But a layman who becomes a sotapanna would be just as likely to live his normal life as a layman, with wife(or wives) and children. But no more wacking nuisances. :-) Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #123262 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:10 pm Subject: Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace sarahprocter... Hi Ken H (& Rob K), > KH: I agree there was a risk the discussion would move away from the Dhamma. But at the same time it was a discussion that could have revealed a fundamental difference in understanding that was otherwise impossible to pin down. > > There was a political element to the discussion, which I admit was very bad. I am referring to the extreme right wing practice of forcing schools to replace science-based education (evolution theory) with religion-based education (creationism and intelligent design theory) and denying it was happening. That is, pretending that Creationism and Intelligent Design were actually sciences. > > I say it was "very bad" because DSG is not the place for that sort of discussion – not because the discussion itself is not good and important in the right place. .... S: I didn't see any problem with the two of you having the discussion on science and dhamma (as I saw it) - quite the contrary. However, as Ken O would say, it wasn't my "cup of tea", so I was reluctant to be drawn into it, that was all. .... > But, getting back to the fundamental difference in understanding: why are Robert K and I at such an impasse? We both love the Dhamma that is discussed at the Foundation with K Sujin. We both claim to subscribe to it, and yet there is this fundamental difference. > > As far as I can gather, the discussion you (Sarah) saw as "about science" was actually about this fundamental but hard-to-pin-down difference. Do concepts such as men, women and animals have kamma and vipakka? Should we insist that human beings did not evolve from primitive life forms? Should our schools teach that human beings and animals are created by past kamma? ... S: ...as I saw as "about science and Dhamma". Yes, I know it's about more than teaching methodology in schools. I think it's good that you both pursue any disagreements until there is some agreement. I'm also glad to see others, like Rob E, joining in. ... > > I think that would be a gross misrepresentation of the Dhamma. It would place the Dhamma alongside all the madcap, dangerous, religious superstitions that are plaguing the world. > > There are no human beings or animals in satipatthana. A superficial reading of the texts would strongly suggest otherwise, but that is whole the point, isn't it? The Dhamma is the opposite of superficial. ... S: I'm sure there's no disagreement on the last point! Glad to see you a little more active again - this one is definitely your 'baby':) Metta Sarah ===== #123263 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:14 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Small introduction sarahprocter... Hi Norbert, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Alex wrote: > I'm not working yet in Suriname. I just moved over to here to see if it is > possible to live simple and not being caught up too much in spiderweb of > Europe. So i can have more time to practice and study Dhamma. And being a > nature and sun-lover i feel good here. ... S: Best wishes for your life in Suriname and for your healthtraining plans. Thx for uploading the pic. Hope any other Newbies here do the same! ... > And yes, It feels good to get a lot of Dhamma mails. I'm learning so much > already and it's feeling good to have some Dhamma friends and guides close > to me (in my laptop ;-)) And as far as i can see, there are some qualified > teachers in this group. I'm opening myself to recieve all i can. ... S: We all just learn from each other.... very glad to have your contributions. Your English is fine. ... > Immens gratitude to you all! I hope to learn a lot and hopefully lateron > being able to contribute in the same way to others. Sabba danam dhamma > danam jinati! ... S: Dhamma is definitely the greatest gift... Metta Sarah ===== #123264 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:37 pm Subject: Re: Delisting announcement #9 sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > ------------- > > S: I would agree, of course, that there are only dhammas, not people, which roll > on regardless. I would agree that right understanding can arise anytime at all. > I would agree that "shovelling snow" and "shooting people" are situations > involving a myriad of different cittas. However, any "kindly" cittas, moments of > true metta and generosity, are definitely preferable to "crazed" angry cittas. > Kusala is still kusala and akusala is still akusala - to be known for what they > are. > -------------- > > KH: Yes, they are to be known as mere dhammas. There is no one hurting or harming anyone else, and there is no one being hurt or being harmed. There are just impersonal, disinterested, dhammas. So what's your point? :-) ... S: I think my point was that yes, "just impersonal, disinterested, dhammas" to be known - which means the dhammas are known just as they are. So the dhammas involved and to be known when on a "shoot-out" are not the same as those involved when "kindly shovelling snow". Seeing visible object is just seeing visible object, but thinking and acting with akusala is different from thinking and acting with kusala. Mere dhammas anytime - maybe that was all your point was (and misunderstood?). .... > > --------------------- > > S: Now, if I understand you're just referring to the arising of satipatthana, then I follow and agree with you... > --------------------- > > KH: Thank you, I knew I was sailing close to the wind at the time, but what else can one do in a Dhamma discussion? :-) ... S: True :-) ... > > S:....always back to the citta now. > ---------------------------------- > > KH: That's the part I accidentally left out; :-) kusala is absolutely kusala and akusala is absolutely akusala. When a monk sees the consequences of any murderous deeds he might have committed he literally vomits blood (if I remember the suttas correctly). It's that serious! > > So, if I seemed to be advocating a carefree attitude towards kusala and akusala cittas, I apologise for my flippancy. I agree the difference must be understood. .... S: No more controversy as far as I'm concerned.... it does all come back to the cittas now, doesn't it? Perhaps you could engage Pt and others in some controversy as we're about to travel again.... Metta Sarah ===== #123265 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:06 pm Subject: Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace sarahprocter... Hi Rob E (& Howard), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > We would all like to think that there is an element of chance in being mugged or murdered, and no one wants to blame the victim, but we should be clear about what the actual philosophy is according to the Buddha, and he doesn't seem to back away from saying if you're born sick or deformed or poor, or have a short life, it's because of kamma from previous lives. He doesn't say it is a combination of factors, but gives it a direct relationship. ... S: This is put well. When we appreciate that there are only dhammas, it becomes clearer that in reality, there are no "people being mugged or murdered", but there are cittas which are vipaka, the result of previous kamma, associated cetasikas and various rupas conditioned by kamma and other factors. It is a direct relationship - akusala kamma patha results in akusala vipaka. There are other support conditions, such as natural decisive support condition, but these are cittas, cetasikas and rupas as well. Metta Sarah ==== #123266 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > D: Sarah , the Buddha addressed the Wordlings and the Noble Ones. > For the former he taught depending on their understanding mundane right view ,plenty of suttas about conventional teaching. > So there are two truths , the conventional /mundane and the surpramundane. .... S: Whoever was being addressed, the Buddha taught about dhammas, realities, about the Path, the knowing of these realities. Sometimes he taught in terms of khandhas, dhatus and ayatanas. Sometimes he taught in terms of conventional usage - people, kings, forests, for those "with little dust" who might understand the realities - such as seeing, hearing, thinking and hardness, for example, no matter the language. No one needs to hear a Buddha to understand sammuti sacca, conventional understanding about using a computer or sitting on a chair. We do need to listen to a Buddha to understand about paramattha sacca, ultimate truth, no matter the words that are used. ... > > The the issue of dhammas = phenomena and their reality (Citta,Cetasika,Rupa , i.e. the khandas), is certainly not what the commoner without necessary insights can understand, not to talk about their 'embodiment' in the Law of Dependent Origination) ... S: This is why we listen, read and consider in order to understand about dhammas, realities. Otherwise there is no way to develop any insight or knowledge of D.O. ... > You say: ' The usual, conventional ideas on the other hand are that our parents, our friends, our work and our home actually exist in reality. There is no understanding of dhammas at all' > > The conventional truth is our social reality .. bloody serious so to say, isn't it? You mean that is not true because in a absolute sense there is the continuous stream of interrelated dhammas ? ... S: What is conventionally true, sammuti sacca, remains conventionally true whether there is any understanding that in an absolute sense there are only namas and rupas or not. The Buddha still knew the names of his attendants and which his kuti was. There is no conflict. Whilst using names and terms and conventional usages, we begin to understand that in reality, there are only dhammas. ... > D: I would be interested to read the commentary , do you have a link? ... S: (to MN 117). I only have the many helpful commentary notes provided by B.Bodhi in his translation of MN. Of course the Pali can be found on the tip.org or other sites. I expect I've referred to this to fill in some of the Pali terms, given the English, that's all. Keep dancing! As mentioned, we'll be travelling in a couple of days, so there are likely to be delays in my steps:) Glad to see you having some nice dances with others too! Metta Sarah ===== #123267 From: han tun Date: Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Nina and Sarah hantun1 Dear Nina and Sarah, Thank you very much once again for your very useful comments. I must tell you one interesting discovery. I was reading Visuddhimagga about Ruupa-sattaka and Naama-sattaka [Aruupa-sattaka] that Sarah had pointed out to me. There, I found the following passage that includes the text that I had posted to you. Vism XX,72. When he discerns consciousness-originated materiality and attributes the three characteristics to it in this way, this meaning becomes evident to him: 'Life, person, pleasure, pain: just these alone Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. Gods, though they live for four-and-eighty thousand Aeons, are not the same for two such moments. Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive Are all alike, gone never to return; And those that break up meanwhile, and in future, Have traits no different from those ceased before. No [world is] born if [consciousness is] not Produced; when that is present, then it lives; When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead: The highest sense this concept will allow. No store of broken states, no future stock; Those born balance like seeds on needle points. Breakup of states is foredoomed at their birth; Those present decay, unmingled with those past. They come from nowhere, break up, nowhere go; Flash in and out, as lightning in the sky'. (Nd.l, 42). with metta and respect, Han --- On Wed, 3/14/12, Nina van Gorkom wrote: To me this is the essence, but no contradiction between paramatthas and our ordinary, social life. As Kh Sujin always stresses: satipa.t.thaana should be developed very naturally. This is what attracted me from the beginning. Nothing forced, like someone who wrote to me long ago: my meditation life and my ordinary daily life. #123268 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:29 pm Subject: Re: About the precept Vikalabhojana (Abstinence from taking food after midday) sarahprocter... Dear Ven Chandima, Welcome to DSG! Did the links which Christine provided give the detail you were looking for? I think there is some controversy over a couple of the items mentioned. May I ask where you reside? With respect and metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "chandimag1984" wrote: > Does any of you have a specific clarification of what the precept Vikalabhojana(Abstinence from taking food after midday) is? #123269 From: Alex Date: Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How to learn Pali en Sutta's norbert_jaka... Hi Yawares, Thanks very much for these usefull links.. Lots of appreciations.. Metta, Norbert.. 2012/3/14 han tun > ** > > > Dear pt, > > The Paa.li text of all Muula Tipi.taka, A.t.thakathaa, Tiikaa that were > approved by the Sixth Buddhist Council are available in Burmese script. All > the translations into Burmese were also done by various Committees of > venerable monks and lay scholars, during the Sixth Buddhist Council, and > the translations were approved by the Council. They are in modern Burmese > language, easily understood by everybody. All of them are available in > Yangon. But I have only selected copies with me in Bangkok. > > with metta, > Han > > --- On Wed, 3/14/12, ptaus1 wrote: > From: ptaus1 > Subject: [dsg] Re: How to learn Pali en Sutta's > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, March 14, 2012, 7:44 PM > > > Dear Han, > > > Han: I can understand Paa.li texts because I have English translation or > Burmese translation or both to match with the Paa.li text. > > I was wondering if you perhaps know - have the commentaries and > subcommentaries been translated in Burmese language? And are they > translated in full, or just bits and pieces? And would those be in some > special form of archaic Burmese language, or is it in the form you could > hear people speaking and learning nowadays? Thank you. Sorry if my > questions sound a bit absurd, I don't know anything about Burmese language > at the moment. > > Best wishes, > pt > > > #123270 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 14-mrt-2012, om 18:47 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > D: I agree ..the state of consciousness experiencing nibbana is not > of this world .. > > but what about magga and phala? > ------ N: The cittas that experience nibbaana are also not of this world, lokuttara. They are different from seeing or hearing which experience sense objects, objects of this world. ------- > D: ATI glossary :'lokuttara: Transcendent; supramundane (see magga, > phala, and nibbana).' > Nyanatiloka :' lokuttara: 'supermundane', is a term for the 4 paths > and 4 fruitions of Sotapatti, etc. (s. ariya-puggala), with Nibbana > as ninth. Hence one speaks of '9 supermundane things' (nava- > lokuttara dhamma). Cf. prec.' > > Free Dict. supermundane : 'of or relating to what is elevated above > earthly things' > ------ N: Correct. ------- > D: One may indeed question whether magga and phala isn't above the > world, i.e. supermundane, the highest of lokiya, whereas nibbana is > beyond /transcendent = supramundane , lokuttara > > In such way we would speak of the supermundane Noble Path , the > Noble Ones are developing/passing. > ------- N: It is easier to grasp when we consider lokuttara magga-citta arising just for a moment and experiencing nibbaana. The path factors that accompany the citta are also lokuttara. For example in the case of the sotaapanna. Then these moments fall away and he/she has to continue developing the Path, being aware of naama and ruupa arising in daily life. At such moments we can say the Path is being developed and it is not lokuttara. The citta and cetasikas experience naama and ruupa in daily life. The Path has to be developed until arahatship is attained. --------- > D: However if - as both sources indicate - the term lokuttara > includes magga and phala besides nibbana , there is the difficulty > of disctinction. > > Is the term (and grouping) nava -lokuttara dhamma canoncial or > commentary? > ------ N: I quote: Dhammasangani 1094: Which are the states [dhammas] that are supra- mundane? The Paths that are Unincluded [apariyaapannaa], and the Fruits of the Paths, and the unconditioned element. Pali: Katame dhammaa lokuttarraa? Apariyaapannaa maggaa ca maggaphalaani va asa"nkhataa ca dhaatu-ime dhammaa lokuttaraa. N: Asa"nkhataa dhaatu denotes nibbaana. ------ When we read unincluded, this always refers to lokuttara dhamma, in fact all nine. Book of Analysis, CH 18, 1020, at end: ------- > D: I don't recall that you commented the proposition ' When you > experiencing something directly without thinking that's Paramattha' > to me it sounds fine and simple.. > ----- N: Seeing experience visible object without thinking. That is correct. They are both paramattha dhammas. But also concepts can be known without thinking. ------ > D: Concept all that what is given a name (which gives meaning of > the experience ) > ------ N: Also when not naming we can experience a concept, without thinking. A very young child does not know names but knows concepts, such as food or parents. Later on he learns the names of things. Sati and pa~n~na of the level of satipa.t.thaana are directly aware and understand directly naama and ruupa as they are, no names needed. When we begin and learn about characteristics of dhammas in daily life we should remember that this is different from naming dhammas. An important distinction. -------- > D: I am thinking of ultimate in respect to nibbana , absolute:the > analyses of experience/citta , conventional : the event, the social > environment ,persons. > ------ > N: Nibbaana is an ultimate reality, but it is unconditioned. Naama and ruupa in daily life are also ultimate realities, different from concepts like events and stories. We do not have to name them ultimate realities. In being aware of them we learn the meaning of ultimate as different from conventional truth. Conventional truth like events, stories are not the objects the Buddha taught us to develop right understanding of. That is more difficult: to understand visible object as it is, not a person, not a story. It is just that which appears through the eyes, and we may repeat this, but it may take a life time or longer before we really understand this, without having to think or to name it. This surely has an impact on our daily life, and Sarah gave many good examples. Less disappointments about the reactions of other people, about events. We learn what is true in the ultimate sense. What is really there. I just mentioned impact on our daily life and now I like to repeat what I heard this morning on a Thai recording, about extending mettaa. Yes, satipa.t.thaana and mettaa are closely connected. Someone asked Kh Sujin about extending mettaa. She said: we have to develop it a lot, since mettaa is the foot of the world [N: keeps the world going]. We should consider others as close friends, and include even animals. We want to help them. If there is no mettaa yet, we should train, she said. There is so much akusala and we should develop each kind of kusala. Not be fixed on gain or profit for ourselves. We should not pay lip service to metta while reciting the sutta. I like the exhortation to develop each and every kind of kusala. It makes me think of Thailand, such a good example. ---- Nina. #123271 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 moellerdieter Dear Nina , you wrote 'N: Supramundane truth, truth that is lokuttara, this is nibbaana. Lokuttara citta experiences nibbaana. All that is not lokuttara is lokiya, worldly. but what about magga and phala? > ------ N: The cittas that experience nibbaana are also not of this world, lokuttara. They are different from seeing or hearing which experience sense objects, objects of this world. D: yes, different magga and phala means entering and achieving one of the 4 states of nobilty , doesn't it? ------- > D: ATI glossary :'lokuttara: Transcendent; supramundane (see magga, > phala, and nibbana).' > Nyanatiloka :' lokuttara: 'supermundane', is a term for the 4 paths > and 4 fruitions of Sotapatti, etc. (s. ariya-puggala), with Nibbana > as ninth. Hence one speaks of '9 supermundane things' (nava- > lokuttara dhamma). Cf. prec.' > > Free Dict. supermundane : 'of or relating to what is elevated above > earthly things' > ------ N: Correct.------ D: due to below , a bit of correct ion : one talks about supra- and the other about super-mundane > D: One may indeed question whether magga and phala isn't above the > world, i.e. supermundane, the highest of lokiya, whereas nibbana is > beyond /transcendent = supramundane , lokuttara> > In such way we would speak of the supermundane Noble Path , the > Noble Ones are developing/passing. ------- N: It is easier to grasp when we consider lokuttara magga-citta arising just for a moment and experiencing nibbaana. The path factors that accompany the citta are also lokuttara. For example in the case of the sotaapanna. Then these moments fall away and he/she has to continue developing the Path, being aware of naama and ruupa arising in daily life. At such moments we can say the Path is being developed and it is not lokuttara. The citta and cetasikas experience naama and ruupa in daily life. The Path has to be developed until arahatship is attained. --------- D : Are magga (moments) and phala (moments) of the -e.g. - sotaapanna 'Lokuttara citta experiences nibbaana' ? > D: However if - as both sources indicate - the term lokuttara > includes magga and phala besides nibbana , there is the difficulty > of disctinction. > > Is the term (and grouping) nava -lokuttara dhamma canoncial or > commentary? > ------ N: I quote: Dhammasangani 1094: Which are the states [dhammas] that are supra- mundane? The Paths that are Unincluded [apariyaapannaa], and the Fruits of the Paths, and the unconditioned element. Pali: Katame dhammaa lokuttarraa? Apariyaapannaa maggaa ca maggaphalaani va asa"nkhataa ca dhaatu-ime dhammaa lokuttaraa. N: Asa"nkhataa dhaatu denotes nibbaana. ------ When we read unincluded, this always refers to lokuttara dhamma, in fact all nine. Book of Analysis, CH 18, 1020, at end: Which are the states [dhammas] that are supra- mundane? The Paths that are Unincluded [apariyaapannaa], and the Fruits of the Paths, and the unconditioned element------- D: as : 'magga , phala and the unconditioned element , the former two are different from nibbana . So perhaps one may conclude these are not of our world ,i.e realms/states higher than that , but not nibbana (? ) In that case -as suggested above -lokuttara involves the super mundane (the former) and the supra mundane (nibbana) , doesn't it? > D: I don't recall that you commented the proposition ' When you > experiencing something directly without thinking that's Paramattha' > to me it sounds fine and simple.. > ----- N: Seeing experience visible object without thinking. That is correct. They are both paramattha dhammas. But also concepts can be known without thinking.----- > D: Concept all that what is given a name (which gives meaning of > the experience ) > ------ N: Also when not naming we can experience a concept, without thinking. A very young child does not know names but knows concepts, such as food or parents. Later on he learns the names of things.Sati and pa~n~na of the level of satipa.t.thaana are directly aware and understand directly naama and ruupa as they are, no names needed. When we begin and learn about characteristics of dhammas in daily life we should remember that this is different from naming dhammas. An important distinction. -------- D: you are right , first is the recognition of the concept, the idea .. and then the name is given (reminds me somehow on Platon Though the 'picture' may be enough for our own understanding , we need the abstract for speech /communication > D: I am thinking of ultimate in respect to nibbana , absolute:the > analyses of experience/citta , conventional : the event, the social > environment ,persons. > ------ > N: Nibbaana is an ultimate reality, but it is unconditioned. Naama and ruupa in daily life are also ultimate realities, different from concepts like events and stories. We do not have to name them ultimate realities. In being aware of them we learn the meaning of ultimate as different from conventional truth. D: I trhink what is different , is better understood be different names/terms which of course is a matter of agreement in communication. Ultimate sounds to me final , whereas' absolute' seems to me fitting as disctintion from the conventional truth ... N:Conventional truth like events, stories are not the objects the Buddha taught us to develop right understanding of. D: as the Dhamma is a gradual teaching ,the level of right understanding must inivolve different approaches , e.g. with stories and events , of which we find plenty in the Sutta Pitaka . The more advanced teaching in terms of absolute truth like Abhidhamma needs quite a fair basic understanding. For the untrained /uneducated mind a simple approach aims also to develop right understanding. , N: That is more difficult: to understand visible object as it is, not a person, not a story. It is just that which appears through the eyes, and we may repeat this, but it may take a life time or longer before we really understand this, without having to think or to name it. This surely has an impact on our daily life, and Sarah gave many good examples. Less disappointments about the reactions of other people, about events. We learn what is true in the ultimate sense. What is really there.I just mentioned impact on our daily life and now I like to repeat what I heard this morning on a Thai recording, about extending mettaa. Yes, satipa.t.thaana and mettaa are closely connected. Someone asked Kh Sujin about extending mettaa. She said: we have to develop it a lot, since mettaa is the foot of the world [N: keeps the world going]. We should consider others as close friends, and include even animals. We want to help them. If there is no mettaa yet, we should train, she said. There is so much akusala and we should develop each kind of kusala. Not be fixed on gain or profit for ourselves. We should not pay lip service to metta while reciting the sutta. I like the exhortation to develop each and every kind of kusala. D: I am noting 'to develop' , to 'train ' ... isn't that a nice reminder for the no-action proponents? N: It makes me think of Thailand, such a good example. D: yes, the Land of Smiles .. though not always ;-) with Metta Dieter #123272 From: Chandima Gangodawila Date: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: About the precept Vikalabhojana (Abstinence from taking food after midday) chandimag1984 Dear Sarah The informations is quite useful that you had given about Ven.Thanissaro. I am the Theravada Buddhist Chaplain at the University of British Columbia in Canada. So I am staying in Vancouver, Canada. In Metta Ven.G.Chandima On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 12:29 AM, sarah wrote: > ** > > > Dear Ven Chandima, > > Welcome to DSG! > > Did the links which Christine provided give the detail you were looking > for? I think there is some controversy over a couple of the items > mentioned. May I ask where you reside? > > With respect and metta > > Sarah > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "chandimag1984" > wrote: > > > Does any of you have a specific clarification of what the precept > Vikalabhojana(Abstinence from taking food after midday) is? > > > #123273 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] DEAR DIETER, A STORY FOR YOU. moellerdieter Dear Yawares (and Christine), I think it would be fair , to ask the author of the story of 'The Two Brothers ' for his view of those aspects in question. Do you have the off -list email adress of the Venerable? with Metta Dieter ----- Original Message ----- From: Yawares Sastri To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 9:56 PM Subject: [dsg] DEAR DIETER, A STORY FOR YOU. Dear Dieter, I might not know the rules of the Order, but I did read that once the Buddha told thera Sudhamma to apologize to the great upasaka Citta. I post the following story just for you: The Story of Citta the Householder While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verses (73) and (74) of this book, with reference to Thera Sudhamma and Citta the householder. #123274 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:35 am Subject: Dear Dieter (about The Two Brothers) yawares1 Dear dieter, This story might be one of Dhammapada stories: **In ancient India after the passing away of the Buddha, there were once two brothers in their twenties, who agreed to set off for a journey of a lifetime so that they could learn the dhamma from different teachers, and they aimed to settle down with the teacher who could teach them to understand the most profound dhamma.** Obviously,'fabianfred' is not the author, he's a story teller/presenter who read/copy and post just like me. I love this story because it encourages me that a housewife like me, if truly follow Buddha's dhamma, can achieve some level of enlightenment too. Dr.Tep Sastri and Dr.Han Tun also think the same. Tep and Brother Han wrote: Tep: I think the author's message behind this story is the following: earnest Buddhists living at home can also become ariya puggalas. Han: I completely agree with you. I, for one, am greatly encouraged by the author's message. -------------------- And I do not know 'fabianfred' email address. Sincerely, yawares #123275 From: "chandimag1984" Date: Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:00 am Subject: Mispronunciation of the term Buddha in British and American Englsih chandimag1984 Dear All Pls be informed the mispronunciation of the term Buddha in the Cambridge English dictionary and the American accent.http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/buddha?q=buddha The correct Māgadhi (Pali)pronunciation doesn't lengthen the last vowel. So it should be Buddha and not Buddhā. If someone happens to articulate it as Buddhā, it refers to many Buddha. In Metta Ven.G.Chandima #123276 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dear Dieter (about The Two Brothers) hantun1 Dear Yawares (Dieter), One clarification. I agreed with Tep on the message of the author that earnest Buddhists living at home can also become ariya puggalas, and I was encouraged by it. It was also true that the Buddha asked the bhikkhu to go to Citta and to own his mistake and to apologize to Citta, which the bhikkhu did. The bhikkhu must have apologized verbally but I cannot visualize a bhikkhu going down on his knees and bow down to a layperson whoever that person may be. In Burma and Thailand I have never seen even a seven-year old novice bowing down to his parents, for example. It is the other way around; the parents bowing down to their seven-year old novice son. with metta and respect, Han --- On Fri, 3/16/12, Yawares Sastri wrote: Dr.Tep Sastri and Dr.Han Tun also think the same. Tep and Brother Han wrote: Tep: I think the author's message behind this story is the following: earnest Buddhists living at home can also become ariya puggalas. Han: I completely agree with you. I, for one, am greatly encouraged by the author's message. -------------------- And I do not know 'fabianfred' email address. Sincerely, yawares #123277 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:04 pm Subject: Dear Brother Han and Dieter yawares1 Dear Brother Han and Dieter, From now on, please think of me as just a story teller. I'm not good in discussion or debate. I just love dhammapada/Jataka stories so much that I would like to make them available for all people who love to read. And I thank the two of you for reading my stories. For you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mz6DEQWZYWg World Peace, yawares #123278 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dear Brother Han and Dieter hantun1 Dear sister Yawares, I really like your stories and I am very grateful to you for posting these stories at DSG, SD, and JTN. I am only intervening because this is a very important subject: the monk going down on his knees and bowing down to a layperson. It is not your fault. As you said, you are a story-teller. The fault is with the original writer who wrote that story. It is a very sensitive subject, and I personally consider that writing such episode amounts to Sangha-agaarava (disrespect to Sangha community). If I have disappointed you, I apologize most sincerely. with metta and respect, your brother Han --- On Fri, 3/16/12, Yawares Sastri wrote: From: Yawares Sastri Subject: [dsg] Dear Brother Han and Dieter To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, March 16, 2012, 9:04 AM Dear Brother Han and Dieter, From now on, please think of me as just a story teller. I'm not good in discussion or debate. I just love dhammapada/Jataka stories so much that I would like to make them available for all people who love to read. And I thank the two of you for reading my stories. For you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mz6DEQWZYWg World Peace, yawares #123279 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:53 pm Subject: Buddha's Saying [ Translated by Daw Mya Tin, M.A.] yawares1 Dear Members, I love these 4 verses pretty much, everytime I read them I feel like little pieces of sins leaving me. ******** Verse 53: As from a collection of flowers many a garland can be made by an expert florist, so also, much good can be done (with wealth, out of faith and generosity) by one subject to birth and death. Note** [kattabbam kusalam bahum: much good may be done. According to the Commentary, it means many deeds of merit should be done with wealth, out of faith and generosity.] Verse 54: The scent of flowers cannot go against the wind; nor the scent of sandalwood, nor of rhododendron (tagara), nor of jasmin (mallika)2; only the reputation of good people can go against the wind. The reputation of the virtuous ones (sappurisa) is wafted abroad in all directions. Verse 55: There are the scents of sandalwood, rhododendron, lotus and jasmin(vassika)3; but the scent of virtue surpasses all scents. Verse 56: The scents of rhododendron and of sandal wood are very faint; but the scent (reputation) of the virtuous is the strongest; it spreads even to the abodes of the deva. ***************** From Texas with flowers to you all. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTu6xUhJSc0&feature=my_favorites&list=FLotJHgCNZB\ SMDegcF0cIPLA Love Buddha's dhamma, yawares #123280 From: Eddie L Date: Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:27 am Subject: A nagging question: Can or should a Buddhist monk or Buddhist nun be politically involved? eddielou_us Hi All, I keep thinking of a nagging question: Can or should a Buddhist monk or Buddhist nun be politically involved? I would like to see what our learned Buddhist study group have to say on this issue. I basically know they are not to be economically involved, even in some cases, handling money or properties are delegated to a regular laypeople. Thanks in advance for your insights. Eddie #123281 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dear Brother Han and Dieter moellerdieter Dear Yawares (and Han), we all here are Dhamma students , aren't we? There is always a chance to learn something new and I don't think you do yourself a favor when limiting your role by being 'just a story teller'. As Han already wrote, there is no blame on you for posting the story , but it would be a pity when you wouldn't take the chance and contemplate about the points mentioned to be questioned , like 'a bhikkhu going down on his knees and bow down to a layperson '. That doesn't say at all that a layperson cannot have more panna than an ascet , nor does it mean that a bhikkhu shall not apologize for wrong behaviour towards the laity , surely not uncommon ( in a Buddhist country) Furthermore the story's indication that a householder must lead a celibate life in order to become a Noble One , provides a wrong impression . If you allow me a suggestion: why don't you use the opportunity to mark this story with the stamp: to be edited. Your intention to emphasise useful aspects of insight by stories /allegories/ metaphors/similes /analogies is certainly a refreshing approach towards the Teaching , considered the often rather dry material treated on the forum. So, please don't feel discouraged ... ;-) with Metta Dieter ----- Original Message ----- From: Yawares Sastri To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 3:04 AM Subject: [dsg] Dear Brother Han and Dieter Dear Brother Han and Dieter, From now on, please think of me as just a story teller. I'm not good in discussion or debate. I just love dhammapada/Jataka stories so much that I would like to make them available for all people who love to read. And I thank the two of you for reading my stories. For you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mz6DEQWZYWg World Peace, yawares #123282 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:54 am Subject: Family Picture yawares1 Dear Norbert, I saw your picture and I think I should join the club....so I post my family picture today(years ago picture, used in my passport when coming to stay in USA). I wish to see Nina and Sarah's pictures too. Sincerely, yawares #123283 From: Alex Date: Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Small introduction norbert_jaka... Hi Sarah, > S: Best wishes for your life in Suriname and for your healthtraining plans. Thx for uploading the pic. Hope any other Newbies here do the same! NJ: Thank you for your wel wishes :) >S: We all just learn from each other.... very glad to have your contributions. Your English is fine.. NJ: Well, i have not much to contribute yet, but that will change in time... My English is getting better.. Thanks to Google translate ;) >S: Dhamma is definitely the greatest gift... NJ: Sadu sadu sadu Loads of metta, Norbert > > #123284 From: Alex Date: Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Family Picture norbert_jaka... Hi Yawares, Nice to see your picture.. It looks like a few years ago.. I would like to see a recent picture of you :) Metta.. 2012/3/16 Yawares Sastri > ** > > > Dear Norbert, > > I saw your picture and I think I should join the club....so I post my > family picture today(years ago picture, used in my passport when coming to > stay in USA). > > I wish to see Nina and Sarah's pictures too. > > Sincerely, > yawares > > > #123285 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:05 am Subject: Re: A nagging question: Can or should a Buddhist monk or Buddhist nun be politically involved? kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Eddie L wrote: > > Hi All, > > I keep thinking of a nagging question: Can or should a Buddhist monk or Buddhist nun be politically involved? I would like to see what our learned Buddhist study group have to say on this issue. I basically know they are not to be economically involved, even in some cases, handling money or properties are delegated to a regular laypeople. > > Thanks in advance for your insights. > -------- Hi Eddie, I like your last sentence because our insights are worth more than our mere book knowledge, aren't they? Based on your own insights (your own understand of satipatthana) what would your guess be? Would monks be permitted by the Vinaya to engage in politics? What would your reasoning be? Ken H #123286 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:18 am Subject: RE: [dsg] A nagging question: Can or should a Buddhist monk or Buddhist nun be politically involved? dhammasaro Good friend Eddie, In Burma and Sri Lanka (nee Ceylon) one occasionally observes monks being politically active. In Thailand, in the past monks were not to be politically active as required in past Thai Constitutions. I have not read the latest Thai Constitution. See: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.001.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.069.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.070.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.2.02.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/harris/wheel392.html peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com From: eddielou_us@... <...> I keep thinking of a nagging question: Can or should a Buddhist monk or Buddhist nun be politically involved? I would like to see what our learned Buddhist study group have to say on this issue. I basically know they are not to be economically involved, even in some cases, handling money or properties are delegated to a regular laypeople. <...> #123287 From: Eddie L Date: Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A nagging question: Can or should a Buddhist monk or Buddhist nun be politically involved? eddielou_us I could be wrong but I have a similar feeling about Shaolin temple monks of ancient China, based what I know about Chinese history. ________________________________ From: Eddie L To: "dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 9:27 AM Subject: [dsg] A nagging question: Can or should a Buddhist monk or Buddhist nun be politically involved? Β Hi All, I keep thinking of a nagging question: Can or should a Buddhist monk or Buddhist nun be politically involved? I would like to see what our learned Buddhist study group have to say on this issue. I basically know they are not to be economically involved, even in some cases, handling money or properties are delegated to a regular laypeople. Thanks in advance for your insights. Eddie #123288 From: Eddie L Date: Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A nagging question: Can or should a Buddhist monk or Buddhist nun be politically involved? eddielou_us Hi Ken, Thanks for your compliments, My guts feeling is, actually based on what I had gathered so far about Buddha's teachings, a monk or nun is supposed to not be attached to greed, because politics can have all kinds of things going, including of course Lobha (GREED). I may not know much about the contents of Vinaya but Buddha, almost for sure, would not advocate politics, which can be considered even dirtier than running or doing business. Monks & nuns should leave those stuff (like Lobha, Dortha, Morha, etc)- to laypeople not immediately seeking liberation towards Nibbhana. So I have a similar feeling about Shaolin temple monks of Ancient China, fighting for many kinds of reasons, correct me, if wrong. Exercising for keeping physically and mentally sound and healthy is fine but not fighting - can involve Dortha (Anger - mentally agitated). Thanks. Metta, Eddie ________________________________ From: Ken H To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 5:05 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: A nagging question: Can or should a Buddhist monk or Buddhist nun be politically involved? Β --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Eddie L wrote: > > Hi All, > > I keep thinking of a nagging question: Can or should a Buddhist monk or Buddhist nun be politically involved? I would like to see what our learned Buddhist study group have to say on this issue. I basically know they are not to be economically involved, even in some cases, handling money or properties are delegated to a regular laypeople. > > Thanks in advance for your insights. > -------- Hi Eddie, I like your last sentence because our insights are worth more than our mere book knowledge, aren't they? Based on your own insights (your own understand of satipatthana) what would your guess be? Would monks be permitted by the Vinaya to engage in politics? What would your reasoning be? Ken H #123289 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:17 pm Subject: Re: A nagging question: Can or should a Buddhist monk or Buddhist nun be politically involved? sarahprocter... Hi Eddie, Great to see you posting again after a long break. Are you still in L.A.? How have your Dhamma studies and interests been going? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Eddie L wrote: > I keep thinking of a nagging question: Can or should a Buddhist monk or Buddhist nun be politically involved? ... S: Quick answer 'no' - the purpose of the Buddhist monks is to teach Dhamma and develop satipatthana, not to be involved in worldly matters. There are lots of suttas about topics which are unsuitable for monks in this regard. We can see the decline of the Sangha in all these regards. Better not to ordain if one cannot live the life of the bhikkhu fully and properly. Metta Sarah ===== #123290 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:29 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] A nagging question: Can or should a Buddhist monk or Buddhist nun be politically involved? dhammasaro Good friend Eddie, 1. The Shaolin temple monks were of the Mahayana Tradition. In many cases, the Mahayana changed their interpretation of the Vinaya-pitaka. For instance, in the Mahayana Tradition, I had a Buddhist friend [now deceased] living in USA. His parents came to Canada from Japan. He was a married Buddhist priest, ate three meals a day, et cetera... he was a bishop in the Buddhist Churches of America. See: http://buddhistchurchesofamerica.org/ In addition, I have friends in the USA Korean Communities who are (1) Buddhist and married Buddhist Monks and are (2) Christian Presbyterians. Last summer I taught English twice a week to a South Korean Presbyterian Minister. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_in_South_Korea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presbyterianism 2. Back to the Theravada Tradition, we well know the vast majority of the Thai military are Buddhist. At least, in my personal experiences as an instructor to the Royal Thai Air Force and other personal friends of the Thai military. IMHO, in everyday life, there are no easy answers... only in Ivory Towers... peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com From: eddielou_us@... <...> I could be wrong but I have a similar feeling about Shaolin temple monks of ancient China, based what I know about Chinese history. <...> #123291 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:42 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: A nagging question: Can or should a Buddhist monk or Buddhist nun be politically involved? dhammasaro Good friend Eddie, On this part you wrote: So I have a similar feeling about Shaolin temple monks of Ancient China, fighting for many kinds of reasons, correct me, if wrong. Exercising for keeping physically and mentally sound and healthy is fine but not fighting - can involve Dortha (Anger - mentally agitated). Thanks. ................................................................................\ ....................................... FWIW, I agree with the Theravada Tradition in mind. Please do not negatively judge the Mahayana Shaolin Monks as they were taught differently, okay? If you believe in "merit making" then please perform "merit" for the Shaolin Monks, okay? Also, please place yourself in the context of that period... no knowledge of Theravada (the smaller vessel) Buddhism... attacks by others... et cetera... In addition, currently there is some controversy about what exercises are appropriate for Thai Theravada Monks. peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck [Rest deleted by Chuck] #123292 From: Eddie L Date: Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A nagging question: Can or should a Buddhist monk or Buddhist nun be politically involved? eddielou_us Hi Sarah, Thanks. Yeah, still here and more or less busy as usual. It has been a while. Great to see you again, hope to at least occasionally drop by this wisdom exchange here and learn/refresh myself. Thanks for the quick answer, is as expected and could not have agreed with more. Eddie ________________________________ From: sarah To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 11:17 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: A nagging question: Can or should a Buddhist monk or Buddhist nun be politically involved? Β Hi Eddie, Great to see you posting again after a long break. Are you still in L.A.? How have your Dhamma studies and interests been going? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Eddie L wrote: > I keep thinking of a nagging question: Can or should a Buddhist monk or Buddhist nun be politically involved? ... S: Quick answer 'no' - the purpose of the Buddhist monks is to teach Dhamma and develop satipatthana, not to be involved in worldly matters. There are lots of suttas about topics which are unsuitable for monks in this regard. We can see the decline of the Sangha in all these regards. Better not to ordain if one cannot live the life of the bhikkhu fully and properly. Metta Sarah ===== #123293 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:08 pm Subject: My dhamma Brother yawares1 Dear Brother Han, You'll always be my dhamma-brother. I'm not mad or disappointed at all.It's my nature that I do not like to discuss/argue/debate because it'll lead to disagreement/quarrel. May be that's why I have best marriage, best relationship with my only daughter and peaceful life. I just love to be a story teller, yawares #123294 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:43 pm Subject: The Story of Upagupta yawares1 Dear Members, I love this story much more when I found out that Upagupta's teacher was Sanakavasin who was a disciple of thera Ananda, the Buddha's attendant. ******************* Upagupta [From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia] Upagupta [circa. 3rd Century B.C.] was a Buddhist monk. According to some stories in the Sanskrit Avadana he was the spiritual teacher of Asoka the great Mauryan emperor. Upagupta's teacher was Sanakavasin who was a disciple of Ananda, the Buddha's attendant. Due to the absence of his name in Theravada literature it is assumed that Upagupta was a Sarvadin monk. In South East Asian countries and Bangladesh Upagupta is a great cult figure. In Myanmar he is known as Shin Upagutta. --------------------- Upagupta [walkingwiththesaints.com/...Saints:Buddhist] A saint in the Sanskrit Buddisht tradition who lived in the region of Mathura. He was born sometime after the Buddha himself, as he was the fifth Buddhist patriarch, following Mahakasyapa. He is said to have lived in the time of King Asoka. The Buddha predicted Upagupta's life and leadership. It is said that he pointed to Mt Urumunda, a place where hermits meditated, and stated that a hundred years after him, a certain Upagupta would be born to a perfume merchant and would make many conversions. Buddha also predicted that Upagupta's guru would be Sanakavasin. The former, aware of Buddha's prediction sought Upagupta's father out, and agreed with him that he would take Upagupta to be a monk. Three sons were born before Upagupta's father would let one go, and before Sanakavasin recognised the Upagupta as the right one. At the time, Sanakavasin was the fourth Buddhist patriarch and it was clear that Upagupta would be his successor. In the early years of his life, Upagupta remained with his family playing a role in the business and family. Sanakavasin was introduced to him in this context, and he began his meditation training. He made his first convert at a very early age. During his life as a lay person, Upagupta's good looks and figure attracted the attention of a dancer/courtesan Vasavadatta who constantly sent her maid to entice him into her home for a visit. Upagupta consistently and cryptically replied that it was not time for him to visit her. Some time later, a well known artist disappeared. The townspeople claimed that he was last seen entering Vasavadatta's house. Accusations of murder were made, blame was apportioned. Vasavadatta was tried and censured by having her hands, ears, feet and nose cut off, and being left to die in the cremation ground. At this point, Upagupta went to her and instructed her in the dharma. She was converted and attained a high level of consciousness. Upagupta himself was also elevated to a very high level of consciousness. At that point, Upagupta's father gave him permission to leave the worldly life and pursue his Buddhist path. He was ordained as a monk, and committed himself to carry out the work of the Buddha. Thera Upagupta was the legendary tamer of Mara, a feared deity, for which he was greatly admired and esteemed. He also possessed great powers of clairvoyance, and was able to bilocate, appearing to people in different places. He was also able to give his disciples visions, and is associated with various supernatural phenomena. He was a great teacher, especially in meditation, and was a great meditator himself. He was also a great teacher through action and insight, and was very accurate in prescribing solutions and methods whereby his disciples could attain enlightenment and arhantship. He is also associated with miracles and supernatural powers and phenomena. Thera Upagupta was known as the "pure being who enjoys omniscience". *************** Love Buddha's dhamma, yawares #123295 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] My dhamma Brother hantun1 Dear Sister Yawares, Thank you very much for your kind understanding. I also am not good at discussions. That is why I usually post messages that do not require discussion. Yes, you are a very good story teller, and I like your stories. with metta and respect, Han --- On Sat, 3/17/12, Yawares Sastri wrote: Dear Brother Han, You'll always be my dhamma-brother. I'm not mad or disappointed at all.It's my nature that I do not like to discuss/argue/debate because it'll lead to disagreement/quarrel. May be that's why I have best marriage, best relationship with my only daughter and peaceful life. I just love to be a story teller, yawares #123296 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Story of Upagupta hantun1 Dear Sister Yawares and others, Here is another version of The legend of Shin Upagote. http://maungpaw.blogspot.com/2008/08/legend-of-shin-upagote.html with metta and respect, Han --- On Sat, 3/17/12, Yawares Sastri wrote: Dear Members, I love this story much more when I found out that Upagupta's teacher was Sanakavasin who was a disciple of thera Ananda, the Buddha's attendant. #123297 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:13 am Subject: The legend of Shin Upagote. yawares1 Dear Brother Han, I truly love 'The legend of Shin Upagote.' Please allow me to post it at all of my favorite groups. Truly appreciate, yawares #123298 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddha's Saying, attention to Lukas nilovg Dear Yawares (and Lukas) I have special memories of the first verse. The late Phra Dhammadharo once quoted this verse to me. A lively reminder to perform all kinds of kusala in daily life. We have to have great confidence in all kinds of kusala, it is a way to have less akusala. At the moment of kusala citta akusala citta has no opportunity to arise. We study the Dhamma, not only to understand more, but in order to apply the Dhamma, Kh Sujin said. She said that some people study a lot but they lack metta in daily life. We can begin to get rid of the idea of self, but very, very little at a time. Yes, by one subject to birth and death, life is so short. We should not waste our life. Thanks for the flowers, your kind thoughts. Lukas, I have a correspondance with Tadao who was a novice when Ven. Dhammadharo was a monk. He wrote to me: I sent him Ven. Dhammadharo's "Be here now". He did not know it. Nina. Op 16-mrt-2012, om 3:53 heeft Yawares Sastri het volgende geschreven: > > Verse 53: As from a collection of flowers many a garland can be > made by an expert florist, so also, much good can be done (with > wealth, out of faith and generosity) by one subject to birth and > death. > > Note** [kattabbam kusalam bahum: much good may be done. According > to the Commentary, it means many deeds of merit should be done with > wealth, out of faith and generosity.] > > #123299 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A nagging question: Can or should a Buddhist monk or Buddhist nun be politically involved? nilovg Dear Eddie, a twofold task of the monk: gantha dhura.m, the "burden" of the scriptures, and vipassanaa dhura.m, the "burden" of vipassanaa. Nothing else! Nina. Op 17-mrt-2012, om 8:22 heeft Eddie L het volgende geschreven: > I keep thinking of a nagging question: Can or should a Buddhist > monk or Buddhist nun be politically involved? #123300 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A nagging question: Can or should a Buddhist monk or Buddhist nun be politically involved? moellerdieter Hi Eddie, there is this nice Samaρρaphala Sutta: ' The Fruits of the Contemplative Life ' which is always good to read for questions like you raised. please see http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.02.0.than.html Below a brief excerpt about 'should' ..I.M.H.O. a good reminder for whom it may concern ;-) This, too, is part of his (the monk's ) virtue.... "Whereas some brahmans and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, are addicted to talking about lowly topics such as these - talking about kings, robbers, ministers of state; armies, alarms, and battles; food and drink; clothing, furniture, garlands, and scents; relatives; vehicles; villages, towns, cities, the countryside; women and heroes; the gossip of the street and the well; tales of the dead; tales of diversity [philosophical discussions of the past and future], the creation of the world and of the sea, and talk of whether things exist or not - he abstains from talking about lowly topics such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue. with Metta Dieter #123301 From: Eddie L Date: Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A nagging question: Can or should a Buddhist monk or Buddhist nun be politically involved? eddielou_us Thanks, Nina. I think monk and nun should concentrate on understanding & practicing Buddha's teachings and just by that should be mostly quite difficult already. And if possible, spread the teachings so many will find more true happiness and achieve Nibbhana sooner. Thanks again, Nina. ________________________________ From: Nina van Gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 7:54 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A nagging question: Can or should a Buddhist monk or Buddhist nun be politically involved? Β Dear Eddie, a twofold task of the monk: gantha dhura.m, the "burden" of the scriptures, and vipassanaa dhura.m, the "burden" of vipassanaa. Nothing else! Nina. Op 17-mrt-2012, om 8:22 heeft Eddie L het volgende geschreven: > I keep thinking of a nagging question: Can or should a Buddhist > monk or Buddhist nun be politically involved? #123302 From: Eddie L Date: Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A nagging question: Can or should a Buddhist monk or Buddhist nun be politically involved? eddielou_us Hi Dieter, Thanks, totally agreed. To decide on pursuing on monkhood even for short term pursuit as in Theravada Buddhism, let alone lifelong pursuit of monkhood, is one of the noblest decisions. Buddha already points out clearly what are the hindrances (like greed, anger, violence, ignorance, etc.) are, so why go back into those pinpointed hindering endeavors. I would think everyone has the freedom to go back to be a layperson, if one really wishes to change one's mind This is the case even in more restrictive (in this particular respect) Hinayana Buddhism, my common sense only - do not know for sure, though ??.It would also make no sense to keep unwilling one in monkhood or nunhood. Back as a layperson, then one can be a businessman or politician. Running a business or ruling/helping to set laws so as to rule a nation is not always easy (tough even for a good, kind-natured layperson) because it may require occasional dirty ploys and tricks to make things happen. Thanks, Dieter. ________________________________ From: Dieter Moeller To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 10:03 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A nagging question: Can or should a Buddhist monk or Buddhist nun be politically involved? Β Hi Eddie, there is this nice SamaΓ±Γ±aphala Sutta: ' The Fruits of the Contemplative Life ' which is always good to read for questions like you raised. please see http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.02.0.than.html Below a brief excerpt about 'should' ..I.M.H.O. a good reminder for whom it may concern ;-) This, too, is part of his (the monk's ) virtue.... "Whereas some brahmans and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, are addicted to talking about lowly topics such as these - talking about kings, robbers, ministers of state; armies, alarms, and battles; food and drink; clothing, furniture, garlands, and scents; relatives; vehicles; villages, towns, cities, the countryside; women and heroes; the gossip of the street and the well; tales of the dead; tales of diversity [philosophical discussions of the past and future], the creation of the world and of the sea, and talk of whether things exist or not - he abstains from talking about lowly topics such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue. with Metta Dieter #123303 From: Eddie L Date: Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A nagging question: Can or should a Buddhist monk or Buddhist nun be politically involved? eddielou_us Hi All, A correction on my mistake, what I really mean is Mahayana Buddhism when I wrote Hinayana Buddhism below. Also I do not mean to disrupt Buddhist order by bringing this subject up, I just want to be clear about what Buddha's teachings guidance on this issue. Thanks and Metta, Eddie ________________________________ From: Eddie L To: "dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 11:34 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A nagging question: Can or should a Buddhist monk or Buddhist nun be politically involved? Β Hi Dieter, Thanks, totally agreed. To decide on pursuing on monkhood even for short term pursuit as in Theravada Buddhism, let alone lifelong pursuit of monkhood, is one of the noblest decisions. Buddha already points out clearly what are the hindrances (like greed, anger, violence, ignorance, etc.) are, so why go back into those pinpointed hindering endeavors. I would think everyone has the freedom to go back to be a layperson, if one really wishes to change one's mind This is the case even in more restrictive (in this particular respect) Hinayana Buddhism, my common sense only - do not know for sure, though ??.It would also make no sense to keep unwilling one in monkhood or nunhood. Back as a layperson, then one can be a businessman or politician. Running a business or ruling/helping to set laws so as to rule a nation is not always easy (tough even for a good, kind-natured layperson) because it may require occasional dirty ploys and tricks to make things happen. Thanks, Dieter. ________________________________ From: Dieter Moeller To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 10:03 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A nagging question: Can or should a Buddhist monk or Buddhist nun be politically involved? Β Hi Eddie, there is this nice SamaΓ±Γ±aphala Sutta: ' The Fruits of the Contemplative Life ' which is always good to read for questions like you raised. please see http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.02.0.than.html Below a brief excerpt about 'should' ..I.M.H.O. a good reminder for whom it may concern ;-) This, too, is part of his (the monk's ) virtue.... "Whereas some brahmans and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, are addicted to talking about lowly topics such as these - talking about kings, robbers, ministers of state; armies, alarms, and battles; food and drink; clothing, furniture, garlands, and scents; relatives; vehicles; villages, towns, cities, the countryside; women and heroes; the gossip of the street and the well; tales of the dead; tales of diversity [philosophical discussions of the past and future], the creation of the world and of the sea, and talk of whether things exist or not - he abstains from talking about lowly topics such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue. with Metta Dieter #123304 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace moellerdieter Hi Ken H, ( D: the Buddha stated that he was teaching for the suffering being,individual, person. That is the Buddha Dhamma all about : " all what I am teaching is suffering , the orgination of suffering, the end of suffering , and the path to end suffering." ------------ KH: Excuse me, Dieter, where does that quote refer to a suffering "being, individual or person"? ------------------ D: I try to find the sutta source for you D: The being is not concept , concept is the Buddha Dhamma in that way that the being needs it like a raft to cross the stream for the other shore. ------------------ KH: Are you saying the path (raft) does not exist, but the traveller on it does exist? I can find you a quote (Visuddhimagga XVI) that specifically says the exact opposite. You may have seen it a few hundred times on DSG. :-) D: one needs to read in context the path is concept like the raft until it is developed/constructed and left behind after it served its aim ( see MN 22) --------------------- >> KH: 'Should our schools teach that human beings and animals are created by past kamma? >> > D: a rhetoric question I assume .. Buddhism is the philosophy/religion /science of the East . You can not take parts of the Dhamma to teach what doesn't fit into the world view of the West. --------------------- KH: If it was true (that human beings are created by past kamma) it should be taught in all schools, east and west. But it isn't true; it is miccha-ditthi. It falls into the category of "Will I be reborn? Will I not be reborn? . . . . Does the Tathagatha exist after parinibbana? Does the Tathagatha not exist after parinibbana?" All of those considerations indicate wrong understanding. D: which -B.T.W. - reminds me on Schopenhauer : though a well respected philosopher , no chance in schools of monotheistic western culture/education -------------------------------- > D: Of course the kids have to be taught what is known (science) and what is believed (religion) within the framework of their cultural environment. -------------------------------- KH: There is a third category: What did the Buddha teach?(history). I think that would be an excellent subject for any school, east or west. I am not so sure there would be many qualified teachers, however. D: here in Germany many high school students schools can choose a particular religion , but I suppose rarely Buddhism . Certainly there is a lack of qualified teachers .. --------------------- > D: The Dhamma -as you may know -rejects the point of creation , instead of that proclaims the Law of Dependent Origination without that a beginning can found. An issue for universities , not schools. --------------------- KH: I would love it to be taught in schools. It is currently taught in universities, but not by qualified teachers. I think you will find almost all university Dhamma teachers think the Dhamma is just another silly religion - just another set of instructions to be followed in the quest for nibbana. But, even so, if it is treated as a legitimate course of scientific study - "What did the historical Buddha actually teach?" - then it does belong in universities Even if the professors don't know the answer! D: I think it is expected that professors teach about the Buddha Dhamma with an 'academic distance' , their reputation of objective judgment in doubt otherwise. So it is a matter of philology ..and studies of comparative religion. Outside of Buddhist countries the vast majority of people consider the Dhamma to be exotic , don't they? --------------------------- > D: The role of (past) kamma is extensively treated , but an acceptance of (the mundane right understanding of) 'There is this world & the next world' is assumed . I think it is up to everybody to believe the Buddha that there are countless worlds , a ' multiverse ' of realms .. but at least one should keep an open mind for later insights. ---------------------------- KH: No, Dieter, without right understanding of nama and rupa there is no difference between "I shall be reborn" and "I shall not be reborn." Without right understanding all such statements are equally, and completely, wrong. ------------------------------- D: the issue of sakkaya ditthi always triggers a lively discussion .. but as stated before , the so called I or self is a process of conditioned and interrelated phenomena as presented by the Law of Dependent Origination.. though I wonder whether you agree > D: A huge potential for experience still open. Finally we agree that it is ignorance /avijja , which keeps us in the world of ageing , sickness and death, don't we? ------------------------------- KH: Yes, but you and I understand those words differently. So the question is, which of our two understandings (if either) was actually taught by the Buddha? We can't both be right. D: Ken, we know that both of us have plenty of different views on this or that topic . The chance to find some common ground is the wellknown Theravada tradition of to go by the book (tipitaka) --------------------- > D: As the issue of creationism and theory of evolution is an issue of global discussion, I see no reason at all , that interested members of DSG should avoid the issue in respect to the Dhamma's point of view . --------------------- KH: The reason is that science (conventional wisdom) and Dhamma are two different fields. The former is the study of concepts while the latter is the study of paramattha dhammas. There is no way in which they can agree with each other. And there is no way they can contradict each other. D: a couple of decades ago the point of consciousness wasn't object of scientific study . Modern psychσlogy and neuroscience opened the door .. though the latter seems to be purely materialistic. In fact the Dhamma includes the science of consciousness with Metta Dieter #123305 From: Eddie L Date: Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:23 am Subject: Re: Political Activity by Monks eddielou_us Hi my Good friend Charles, I am okay with sending email directly. But I want to still share our correspondence here, hope you don't mind. Please do not get me wrong, I always try my best to respect freedom and Buddha's teachings (no distinction between Mahayana and Theravada Buddhism- they both come from the same root - Pitika or Triple Gems scriptures or basically same Buddha's teachings, just some minor differences). Also Buddhism is never dogmatic! based on what I realize so far. Buddha taught us that Greed (extends to Lust), Anger and Ignorance, etc are what drag us all in the whirlpool of Samsara. If one wants to be liberated early learn to avoid those, if one choose to continue in the Samsara, then it is fine too! just more 'frequent' sufferings than 'occasional' happiness. All one's own personal choice, so not dogmatic at all. We will always have our chance to achieve ultimate physical & mental liberation and reach Nibbhana. Metta Eddie ________________________________ From: charlest To: eddielou_us@... Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 12:04 AM Subject: Political Activity by Monks Good friend Eddie, For some reason my messages to you are taking over twelve (12) hours to appear. In the meantime I am sending to you directly to be timely. Hopefully this extreme delay will soon be corrected. ................................................................ Good friend Eddie, 1. The Shaolin temple monks were of the Mahayana Tradition. In many cases, the Mahayana changed their interpretation of the Vinaya-pitaka. For instance, in the Mahayana Tradition, I had a Buddhist friend [now deceased] living in USA. His parents came to Canada from Japan. He was a married Buddhist priest, ate three meals a day, et cetera... he was a bishop in the Buddhist Churches of America. See: http://buddhistchurchesofamerica.org/ In addition, I have friends in the USA Korean Communities who are (1) Buddhist and married Buddhist Monks and are (2) Christian Presbyterians. Last summer I taught English twice a week to a South Korean Presbyterian Minister. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_in_South_Korea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presbyterianism 2. Back to the Theravada Tradition, we well know the vast majority of the Thai military are Buddhist. At least, in my personal experiences as an instructor to the Royal Thai Air Force and other personal friends of the Thai military. IMHO, in everyday life, there are no easy answers... only in Ivory Towers... peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck ............................................................... Good friend Eddie, On this part you wrote: So I have a similar feeling about Shaolin temple monks of Ancient China, fighting for many kinds of reasons, correct me, if wrong. Exercising for keeping physically and mentally sound and healthy is fine but not fighting - can involve Dortha (Anger - mentally agitated). Thanks. ................................................................................\ ....................................... FWIW, I agree with the Theravada Tradition in mind. Please do not negatively judge the Mahayana Shaolin Monks as they were taught differently, okay? If you believe in "merit making" then please perform "merit" for the Shaolin Monks, okay? Also, please place yourself in the context of that period... no knowledge of Theravada (the smaller vessel) Buddhism... attacks by others... et cetera... In addition, currently there is some controversy about what exercises are appropriate for Thai Theravada Monks. peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck [Rest deleted by Chuck] ................................. Feel free to contact me off forum as it is quicker, currently. sincerely, Chuck #123306 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A nagging question: Can or should a Buddhist monk or Buddhist nun be politically involved? moellerdieter Hi Eddie , you wrote: I would think everyone has the freedom to go back to be a layperson, if one really wishes to change one's mind This is the case even in more restrictive (in this particular respect) Hinayana Buddhism, my common sense only - do not know for sure, though ??.It would also make no sense to keep unwilling one in monkhood or nunhood. D: you are right, it is up to everyone to leave the order and disrobe . It is quite commen that lay persons enter the monkhood for one rainy season or even shorter periods ( at least in Thailand) B.T.W. Theravadins consider the term Hinayana derogatory . Theravada Buddhism ( based on the Pali Canon) the accepted expression nowadays. with Metta Dieter #123307 From: Eddie L Date: Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A nagging question: Can or should a Buddhist monk or Buddhist nun be politically involved? eddielou_us Hi Dieter, I am sincerely sorry for my mistake of using the wrong derogatory term, I was not really aware of this when I wrote it. Thanks for pointing it out to me. Metta Eddie ________________________________ From: Dieter Moeller To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 12:25 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A nagging question: Can or should a Buddhist monk or Buddhist nun be politically involved? Β Hi Eddie , you wrote: I would think everyone has the freedom to go back to be a layperson, if one really wishes to change one's mind This is the case even in more restrictive (in this particular respect) Hinayana Buddhism, my common sense only - do not know for sure, though ??.It would also make no sense to keep unwilling one in monkhood or nunhood. D: you are right, it is up to everyone to leave the order and disrobe . It is quite commen that lay persons enter the monkhood for one rainy season or even shorter periods ( at least in Thailand) B.T.W. Theravadins consider the term Hinayana derogatory . Theravada Buddhism ( based on the Pali Canon) the accepted expression nowadays. with Metta Dieter #123308 From: Eddie L Date: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Political Activity by Monks eddielou_us Hi All, Again, I am not against this or that, including of course Shaolin Buddhist Temple monks. I just sometimes want to see how many things & issues hold up in Buddha's teachings. In fact, I was and am still a huge fan of Shaolin Buddhist Temple monks' impressive superhuman kung fu skills. Metta, Eddie ________________________________ From: Eddie L To: charlest Cc: "dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 12:23 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Political Activity by Monks Β Hi my Good friend Charles, I am okay with sending email directly. But I want to still share our correspondence here, hope you don't mind. Please do not get me wrong, I always try my best to respect freedom and Buddha's teachings (no distinction between Mahayana and Theravada Buddhism- they both come from the same root - Pitika or Triple Gems scriptures or basically same Buddha's teachings, just some minor differences). Also Buddhism is never dogmatic! based on what I realize so far. Buddha taught us that Greed (extends to Lust), Anger and Ignorance, etc are what drag us all in the whirlpool of Samsara. If one wants to be liberated early learn to avoid those, if one choose to continue in the Samsara, then it is fine too! just more 'frequent' sufferings than 'occasional' happiness. All one's own personal choice, so not dogmatic at all. We will always have our chance to achieve ultimate physical & mental liberation and reach Nibbhana. Metta Eddie ________________________________ From: charlest To: eddielou_us@... Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 12:04 AM Subject: Political Activity by Monks Good friend Eddie, For some reason my messages to you are taking over twelve (12) hours to appear.Β In the meantime I am sending to you directly to be timely.Β Hopefully this extreme delay will soon be corrected. ................................................................ Good friend Eddie, 1.Β The Shaolin temple monks were of the Mahayana Tradition.Β In many cases, the Mahayana changed their interpretation of the Vinaya-pitaka. For instance, in the Mahayana Tradition, I had a Buddhist friend [now deceased] living in USA.Β His parents came to Canada from Japan.Β He was a married Buddhist priest, ate three meals a day, et cetera...Β he was a bishop in the Buddhist Churches of America.Β See:Β http://buddhistchurchesofamerica.org/ In addition, I have friends in the USA Korean Communities who are (1) Buddhist and married Buddhist Monks and are (2) Christian Presbyterians.Β Last summer I taught English twice a week to a South Korean Presbyterian Minister. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_in_South_Korea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presbyterianism 2.Β Back to the Theravada Tradition, we well know the vast majority of the Thai military are Buddhist.Β At least, in my personal experiences as an instructor to the Royal Thai Air Force and other personal friends of the Thai military. IMHO, in everyday life, there are no easy answers...Β only in Ivory Towers... peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck ............................................................... Good friend Eddie, On this part you wrote: So I have a similar feeling about Shaolin temple monks of Ancient China, fighting for many kinds of reasons, correct me, if wrong. Exercising for keeping physically and mentally sound and healthy is fine but not fighting - can involve Dortha (Anger - mentally agitated). Thanks. ................................................................................\ ....................................... FWIW, I agree with the Theravada Tradition in mind. Please do not negatively judge the Mahayana Shaolin Monks as they were taught differently, okay?Β If you believe in "merit making" then please perform "merit" for the Shaolin Monks, okay? Also, please place yourself in the context of that period...Β no knowledge of Theravada (the smaller vessel) Buddhism...Β attacks by others... et cetera... In addition, currently there is some controversy about what exercises are appropriate for Thai Theravada Monks. peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck [Rest deleted by Chuck] ................................. Feel free to contact me off forum as it is quicker, currently. sincerely, Chuck #123309 From: han tun Date: Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The legend of Shin Upagote. hantun1 Dear Sister Yawares, Please do so. with metta and respect, Han --- On Sat, 3/17/12, Yawares Sastri wrote: Dear Brother Han, I truly love 'The legend of Shin Upagote.' Please allow me to post it at all of my favorite groups. Truly appreciate, yawares #123310 From: "azita" Date: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:25 am Subject: Re: Political Activity by Monks gazita2002 Hallo Eddie, Jst last week I went to see a performance by these Shaolin monks as I had won tickets for the show. While watching, I thought about some of the disciples of Buddha during his time and it seemed to me that these modern day fellows were nothing like the monks during the Buddhas time. Having a little knowledge of the Vinaya I think that the Shaolin monks arent connected to that line of rules or precepts or whatever one wants to call it. they were fun to watch, real showmen, and to develop that degree of physical skill I would think one would have to have a strong sense of self. As I have no idea what goes on in someone else's 'world' I wont speculate further. may all beings be happy azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Eddie L wrote: > > Hi All, > > Again, I am not against this or that, including of course Shaolin Buddhist Temple monks. I just sometimes want to see how many things & issues hold up in Buddha's teachings. In fact, I was and am still a huge fan of Shaolin Buddhist Temple monks' impressive superhuman kung fu skills. > > Metta, > > Eddie > #123311 From: Eddie L Date: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Political Activity by Monks eddielou_us Hi Good friend Charles, Thanks for the info and especially the video about Shaolin Buddhist temple monks in USA. I learn something from it. What I understand is Shaolin Buddhist temple was founded by Monk Dharmo or Dharuma (in Japanese) to vitalize and keep the (mentally) meditating monks in good physical shape and it turned out to be used for fighting!! Hehe! Many effective famous martial arts including Karate evolved from there. On closer look, Mahayana Shaolin monk's fighting is more about being loyalist (to the nation and (at that time - ) the throne) than political. So I could be wrong, still isn't Buddha's teachings being about all natural truths/phenomena, thus transcending all divisions and partitions (including national, cultural, racial, etc). Shaolin temple does show up again the congruence so far with truth and greatness of Buddha's teachings with all the superior showing of capabilities (physical & mental components) of all time! That is why I like Buddha's teachings. Anyway, just being curious. Eddie ________________________________ From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro To: DGG ; eddielou_us@... Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 2:27 PM Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Political Activity by Monks Good friend Eddie, et al I fully agree with you. As a fan of Mahayana Shaolin, you may find the attached video interesting. I found the Houston, Texas police very interesting as well all of the video. Should you not be able to view; please advise. As one person stated in the video,it is more a way of approaching life... ................................................................................\ ................................................................................\ .......................................................... Uploaded by PBS on Mar 26, 2009 http://www.pbs.org/itvs/globalvoices/ - The lives and ambitions of five Shaolin monks who bring kungfu to America from the temples of China. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkjxbqthakk&feature=fvst ................................................................................\ ................................................................................\ .......................................................... As most of my USA friends are Buddhists of various Buddhist flavours; I do not preach Theravada Buddhism. I try to teach by example - instead of merely "talk the walk"; I try to "walk the walk"... peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck Post script: We all make mistooks (sic). Yes, Hinayana is a pejorative term aimed at the Theravada Tradition. [rest deleted by Chuck] #123312 From: Eddie L Date: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Political Activity by Monks eddielou_us Hi Azita, I think I have to agree with you, today's Shaolin Buddhist temple is kind of commercialized. But it does go to show the power & capabilities derivable when physical & mental (like - Zen Buddhism) are combined fruitfully even if in not full but just small measure - the greatness of Buddha's teachings. Very close to natural truth. Metta Eddie ________________________________ From: azita To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 4:25 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Political Activity by Monks Β Hallo Eddie, Jst last week I went to see a performance by these Shaolin monks as I had won tickets for the show. While watching, I thought about some of the disciples of Buddha during his time and it seemed to me that these modern day fellows were nothing like the monks during the Buddhas time. Having a little knowledge of the Vinaya I think that the Shaolin monks arent connected to that line of rules or precepts or whatever one wants to call it. they were fun to watch, real showmen, and to develop that degree of physical skill I would think one would have to have a strong sense of self. As I have no idea what goes on in someone else's 'world' I wont speculate further. may all beings be happy azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Eddie L wrote: > > Hi All, > > Again, I am not against this or that, including of course Shaolin Buddhist Temple monks. I just sometimes want to see how many things & issues hold up in Buddha's teachings. In fact, I was and am still a huge fan of Shaolin Buddhist Temple monks' impressive superhuman kung fu skills. > > Metta, > > Eddie > #123313 From: Lukas Date: Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:27 pm Subject: grieve of beloved ones szmicio Dear friends, L. left me. I cant find strenght to live. Only drugs can bring me relief . I know that I will end bad. Best wishes Lukas #123314 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:47 pm Subject: Re: grieve of beloved ones szmicio friends, Also I have nowhere to go for Dhamma shelter, as I used to do that before when 'big problems'. I was blocked/banned at vipassana meditation in Goenka tradition for at least half a year. I have nowhere to go and cant stay in town I live cause , bad friends alcohol and drugs. Best wishes Lukas P.s 2 weeks ago I was in my shrink, who leads me many years. The best, private shrink and the more expensive.Working in addicition and mental disease field. That was the first time I tell him the truth that I am addicted to opiats since 2 and half year. He just look on me and seemed to have helpless face expression. And he told me: 'Mr Lukas, I cant help you'. 'I want to be normal again' - I told, he answered: 'Pls prepere a pigama and slippers. I will add you to the waiting list for mental institution for 2 weeks detox and than we start to look for you a rehabilitation center and this will be 2 years in closed facility or we can try something new: A metadon programme' He said he will also add me for the waiting list for this program and this one dont need detoxification or closed facility. But it's like taking for the whole life daily dosage of very weak opiat. No other ways. He didnt even charge me for a visit, cause he understand how hard it is and even the will to start treatment is a big thing. Beginning. That was 2 weeks agot and shall call him every2 day to confirm that I have my place on list. But I didnt do it. And I really don wish to do it anymore. Weak. > L. left me. I cant find strenght to live. Only drugs can bring me relief . I know that I will end bad. #123315 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: grieve of beloved ones nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 18-mrt-2012, om 4:47 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > L. left me. I cant find strenght to live. Only drugs can bring me > relief . I know that I will end bad. ------ N: Did you see my mail to Yawares that was also addressed to you? It was about Ven. Dhammadharo. For the addiction, I know about Metadon program, it seems to work in Holland. But I cannot say much about this subject. Rob E very kindly gave you some advice. ----- Nina. #123316 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:49 pm Subject: Re: grieve of beloved ones rjkjp1 Dear lukas, is it such a big problem to go on a methadone program? I have a friend in new zelaand who i knew for 30 plus years. he has been on that program all the time, and is actaully quite proud that he is now the longest, according to him, continually on the program. he still functions, has a wife etc. robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > friends, > > Also I have nowhere to go for Dhamma shelter, as I used to do that before when 'big problems'. I was blocked/banned at vipassana meditation in Goenka tradition for at least half a year. I have nowhere to go and cant stay in town I live cause , bad friends alcohol and drugs. > > Best wishes > Lukas > > P.s > 2 weeks ago I was in my shrink, who leads me many years. The best, private shrink and the more expensive.Working in addicition and mental disease field. That was the first time I tell him the truth that I am addicted to opiats since 2 and half year. He just look on me and seemed to have helpless face expression. And he told me: 'Mr Lukas, I cant help you'. 'I want to be normal again' - I told, he answered: 'Pls prepere a pigama and slippers. I will add you to the waiting list for mental institution for 2 weeks detox and than we start to look for you a rehabilitation center and this will be 2 years in closed facility or we can try something new: A metadon programme' He said he will also add me for the waiting list for this program and this one dont need detoxification or closed facility. But it's like taking for the whole life daily dosage of very weak opiat. No other ways. He didnt even charge me for a visit, cause he understand how hard it is and even the will to start treatment is a big thing. Beginning. That was 2 weeks agot and shall call him every2 day to confirm that I have my place on list. But I didnt do it. And I really don wish to do it anymore. Weak. > > > > L. left me. I cant find strenght to live. Only drugs can bring me relief . I know that I will end bad. > #123317 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:11 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: A nagging question: Can or should a Buddhist monk or Buddhist nun be politically involved? dhammasaro Good friend Eddie, I agree with what you wrote to good friend Dieter; except, for your partial last sentence; "...it may require occasional dirty ploys and tricks to make things happen". IMHO, your opinion is why we have so many deceitful and distasteful persons both in politics and in Buddhist forums... It is a great shame we have so many less than honest politicians and Buddhist forum elitists... peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck Post script: No problem on the Hinayana & Mahayana mistook (sic)... we all mistype... [Rest deleted by Chuck] #123318 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:27 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Political Activity by Monks dhammasaro Good friend Eddie, et al I fully agree with you. As a fan of Mahayana Shaolin, you may find the attached video interesting. I found the Houston, Texas police very interesting as well all of the video. Should you not be able to view; please advise. As one person stated in the video, it is more a way of approaching life... ................................................................................\ ................................................................................\ .......................................................... Uploaded by PBS on Mar 26, 2009 http://www.pbs.org/itvs/globalvoices/ - The lives and ambitions of five Shaolin monks who bring kungfu to America from the temples of China. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkjxbqthakk&feature=fvst ................................................................................\ ................................................................................\ .......................................................... As most of my USA friends are Buddhists of various Buddhist flavours; I do not preach Theravada Buddhism. I try to teach by example - instead of merely "talk the walk"; I try to "walk the walk"... peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck Post script: We all make mistooks (sic). Yes, Hinayana is a pejorative term aimed at the Theravada Tradition. [rest deleted by Chuck] #123319 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:15 pm Subject: Re: grieve of beloved ones sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > friends, > > Also I have nowhere to go for Dhamma shelter... .... S: You always have a Dhamma shelter and good Dhamma friends here. We're happy to discuss the Dhamma with you anytime. I know you're very sad at the moment because L has left you. We all have great sadnesses in life, but have to find the strength and courage from the Dhamma to be brave, to continue on, to understand the present realities. For this, it is essential that we also get the rest, the nutriment and medicine we need - which means following the advice of your doctor as well as your Dhamma friends at this time. Once you've overcome your addictions, then it'll be easier to contact good friends like L again. Lukas, we've just got into Hong Kong and when I opened my computer and saw your messages, I tried calling/skyping both the numbers you gave me before, but neither seem to be valid numbers anymore. If you give me the best number, I'll try calling tomorrow (early morning your time). Perhaps Phil or Pt or Rob E or anyone else might also consider skyping sometime too. Did you listen to any Dhamma audio recently? It can help a lot too. Metta Sarah ===== #123320 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:43 am Subject: Sumana And His Jasmine Flowers [ Thai Dhammapada Book, Thai version] yawares1 Dear Members, Who said " Never on Sunday"?? This lovely Sunday, I proudly present this wonderful story that I love so much, to you all. Jasmine flowers/music for you all: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Lz2MHoH_Mk&feature=related ************** Sumana And His Jasmine Flowers [ Translated by Dr. Sirikanya Sastri, a surgeon working for The US Airforce ] This is a story of Sumana, a gifted florist. His daily ritual was to supply King Bimbisara of Rajagaha with jasmine flowers each morning. One day, he was traveling to the king's palace. He saw the Buddha with a halo of light radiating his entire body as he was coming into town for alms-food accompanied by many bhikkhus. The amazing image of Buddha in his resplendent glory compelled Sumana to offer his jasmine flowers to Him. Sumana decided at that moment that even if the king were to exile him out of the country or were to kill him, he would not offer jasmine flowers to the king that day. He respectfully adorned the Buddha with his jasmine flowers which remained suspended in the air. A canopy of flowers hovered over Buddha's head and the remaining flowers surrounded Buddha with walls of jasmine buds. These flowers moved with the Buddha like a fortress shield of jasmine. As the Buddha traveled through the town, a large entourage followed him in awe and with sincere respect and adoration. Thousands of people inside and outside of Rajagaha came out of their houses to pay respect to the Buddha. As for Sumana, his entire body was submerged in delightful satisfaction (Piti). Sumana's wife was afraid that her husband's neglect would anger the king. So, she quickly begged the king to understand she has nothing to do with her husband's behavior. But the king, being a Sotapanna himself, was delighted to see how the flowers meant for him had been used to adorn the Buddha. He respectfully greeted the Buddha with respect and admiration by offering alms-food to the Buddha and his disciples. After the meal, the Buddha returned to the Jetavana monastery with the king escorting him safely. Once the king returned to his palace, he rewarded Sumana with eight elephants, eight horses, eight male slaves, eight female slaves, eight maidens and eight thousand in cash. At the Jetavana monastery, Ananda thera asked the Buddha what benefits Sumana would gain by his good deed done on that day. The Buddha answered that Sumana, having given to the Buddha without any consideration for his life, would not be born in any of the four lower worlds (Apaya) for the next one hundred thousand world. And he eventually would become a paccekabuddha. As the Buddha entered the Perfumed Hall (Gandhakuti) the flowers fell down to the ground and decorated the path of the Buddha. ******************** Love Buddha's dhamma, yawares P.S. This Dr.Sirikanya is 'baby Sirikanya' in my family picture. #123321 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:37 am Subject: Re: grieve of beloved ones epsteinrob Hi Lukas, and Rob. Throwing in my two cents, I agree. It is more important to survive and get into a better situation than to worry about picking and choosing the right or wrong solution. If I were in that situation I would do anything and everything that was possible - all the programs that are open to me to solve the problem. Get on the waiting list for all of them, and then if it is an emergency because I am literally dying from drugs and neglect, go to the damned hospital and check in and get emergency service. Do what's necessary and take care of yourself. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Dear lukas, > is it such a big problem to go on a methadone program? > I have a friend in new zelaand who i knew for 30 plus years. he has been on that program all the time, and is actaully quite proud that he is now the longest, according to him, continually on the program. he still functions, has a wife etc. > robert > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > > > friends, > > > > Also I have nowhere to go for Dhamma shelter, as I used to do that before when 'big problems'. I was blocked/banned at vipassana meditation in Goenka tradition for at least half a year. I have nowhere to go and cant stay in town I live cause , bad friends alcohol and drugs. > > > > Best wishes > > Lukas > > > > P.s > > 2 weeks ago I was in my shrink, who leads me many years. The best, private shrink and the more expensive.Working in addicition and mental disease field. That was the first time I tell him the truth that I am addicted to opiats since 2 and half year. He just look on me and seemed to have helpless face expression. And he told me: 'Mr Lukas, I cant help you'. 'I want to be normal again' - I told, he answered: 'Pls prepere a pigama and slippers. I will add you to the waiting list for mental institution for 2 weeks detox and than we start to look for you a rehabilitation center and this will be 2 years in closed facility or we can try something new: A metadon programme' He said he will also add me for the waiting list for this program and this one dont need detoxification or closed facility. But it's like taking for the whole life daily dosage of very weak opiat. No other ways. He didnt even charge me for a visit, cause he understand how hard it is and even the will to start treatment is a big thing. Beginning. That was 2 weeks agot and shall call him every2 day to confirm that I have my place on list. But I didnt do it. And I really don wish to do it anymore. Weak. > > > > > > > L. left me. I cant find strenght to live. Only drugs can bring me relief . I know that I will end bad. > > > #123322 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:17 am Subject: Re: A nagging question: Can or should a Buddhist monk or Buddhist nun be politically involved? kenhowardau Hi Dieter and Eddie, ------- > D: Below a brief excerpt about 'should' ..I.M.H.O. a good reminder for whom it may concern ;-) ------- KH: I am not sure who you are referring to, but there have been quite a few conversations here about 'should.' Is the Dhamma a list of things that we should do? Or is the Dhamma a description of a world in which there are only conditioned dhammas – no us (no one who should or should not do things)? --------------------- > This, too, is part of his (the monk's ) virtue.... "Whereas some brahmans and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, are addicted to talking about lowly topics such as these - talking about kings, robbers, ministers of state; armies, alarms, and battles; food and drink <. . .>" -------------------- KH: If we are talking about *any* topic in which there is a controlling self (who 'should' or 'should not' do things) we are not talking about satipatthana, are we? We are talking about a comparatively lowly topic. Ken H #123323 From: "azita" Date: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:07 pm Subject: Re: Political Activity by Monks gazita2002 Hallo Eddie, Do you really think that the Shaolin monks activities are close to natural truth, as you put it? I know wondrous things can be performed when 'magical' powers are developed eg. being able to disappear from one place and appear in another as quickly as it takes to blink the eye; or walk on water, or walk thro walls, however I personally think that has nothing todo with Buddhas teachings. the only connection I see is that anything is possible when the right set of conditions are there, but I think great physical feats are in truth jst concepts when a moment of right understanding of arises and knows the present for what it really is ; anicca, dukkha, anatta. patience, courage and good cheer azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Eddie L wrote: > > Hi Azita, > > I think I have to agree with you, today's Shaolin Buddhist temple is kind of commercialized. But it does go to show the power & capabilities derivable when physical & mental (like - Zen Buddhism) are combined fruitfully even if in not full but just small measure - the greatness of Buddha's teachings. Very close to natural truth. > > Metta > > Eddie #123324 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:24 pm Subject: Re: grieve of beloved ones rjkjp1 Dear Lukas You know about Sarakani the ex-bhikkhu, who became an alcoholic. When he died, with alcohol still on his breath, the Buddha said he was now a deva and a sotapanna. Monks were outraged that he could have attained. But he had confidence and understanding of Dhamma, and attained at the time of his death. That the Goenka people have banned you I would take as an auspicious sign. robert > > > > > > Also I have nowhere to go for Dhamma shelter, as I used to do that before when 'big problems'. I was blocked/banned at vipassana meditation in Goenka tradition for at least half a year. I have nowhere to go and cant stay in town I live cause , bad friends alcohol and drugs. > > > > > > Best wishes > > > Lukas > > > > > > P.s > > > 2 weeks ago I was in my shrink, who leads me many years. The best, private shrink and the more expensive.Working in addicition and mental disease field. That was the first time I tell him the truth that I am addicted to opiats since 2 and half year. He just look on me and seemed to have helpless face expression. And he told me: 'Mr Lukas, I cant help you'. 'I want to be normal again' - I told, he answered: 'Pls prepere a pigama and slippers. I will add you to the waiting list for mental institution for 2 weeks detox and than we start to look for you a rehabilitation center and this will be 2 years in closed facility or we can try something new: A metadon programme' He said he will also add me for the waiting list for this program and this one dont need detoxification or closed facility. But it's like taking for the whole life daily dosage of very weak opiat. No other ways. He didnt even charge me for a visit, cause he understand how hard it is and even the will to start treatment is a big thing. Beginning. That was 2 weeks agot and shall call him every2 day to confirm that I have my place on list. But I didnt do it. And I really don wish to do it anymore. Weak. > > > > > > > > > > L. left me. I cant find strenght to live. Only drugs can bring me relief . I know that I will end bad. > > > > > > #123325 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:59 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Political Activity by Monks dhammasaro Good friend Eddie, et al When I was a bhikkhu at Wat Bowon in Thailand, I was in a motorcade with HH The Thai Supreme Patriarch to Wat Wan in Chonburi Province. While there I was told about the Mahayana Anek Kusala Sala (Viharnra Sien) across the Ban Amphoe Reservoir. Some weeks later on an informal visit to Wat Yan we were able to visit Viharna Sien. It was well worth the visit. The staff were very friendly and helpful. On Wat Wan Sangwararam: It is a Royal Temple, 15 kilometers south of Pattaya City, turning left from Sukhumvit Highway at kilometer 160. The temple was dedicated to Somdej Phra Yanasangworn, the present Supreme Patriarch in 1976 and was later graciously admitted under the patronage of His Majesty the King. The temple ground comprises a mondop (religious building with rectangular roof) which enshrine a replica of the Buddha's footprints, a large Pagoda where the relics of the Lord Buddha and those of the Lord Buddha's disciple are enshrined. There are international pavilions representing several countries that dot the grounds, such as Switzerland. There is also the Vihan Sian, a grand and exquisite showcase of Chinese architecture. Trust you enjoy the photos... more here online at DSG Photos: Anek Kusala Sala (Viharna Sien) 19 Fighting Positions of the Shaolin Monk peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck #123326 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:44 pm Subject: Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace kenhowardau Hi Dieter, ------------------- >> KH: <. . .> where does that quote refer to a suffering "being, individual or person"? >> > D: I try to find the sutta source for you ------------------- KH: Don't bother, I was being flippant. I was saying, where do the actual lines that you quoted refer to a being? My point was that there is no person in satipatthana, there are only namas and rupas. So, even if you do find the full quote and it does contain the word 'person,' that will not mean there really is a person. It will mean there really is a momentary arising of namas and rupas (the five khandhas). -------------------------- <. . .> > D: one needs to read in context the path is concept like the raft until it is developed/constructed and left behind after it served its aim ( see MN 22) --------------------------- KH: I can't follow that at all. ----------------------------------------- <. . .> > D: the issue of sakkaya ditthi always triggers a lively discussion .. but as stated before , the so called I or self is a process ----------------------------------------- KH: There is no process. A process is a mere concept. The concept of a process of dhammas, for example, consists of past dhammas being followed by present dhammas being followed by future dhammas. If the so-called 'self' consisted of anything it would have to be a single moment of the five khandhas (nama and rupa). There is nothing else in absolute reality. ---------------------------- > D: of conditioned and interrelated phenomena as presented by the Law of Dependent Origination.. ---------------------------- KH: What do you mean by "conditioned and interrelated phenomena"? Surely there are only conditioned phenomena; there are no other kinds of phenomena. ----------------------------- > D: though I wonder whether you agree ----------------------------- KH: I hope you know now that I don't. :-) ----------- <. . .> > D: Ken, we know that both of us have plenty of different views on this or that topic . The chance to find some common ground is the wellknown Theravada tradition of to go by the book (tipitaka) ----------- KH: The way I see it, the Tipitaka is the common ground that you and I are starting from. We disagree in our respective understandings of the book. --------------------- <. . .> >D: . . . In fact the Dhamma includes the science of consciousness ---------------------- KH: I am not so sure about that. But I am sure the science of consciousness does not include the Dhamma, and never will. Ken H #123327 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 15-mrt-2012, om 18:59 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > you wrote > N: The cittas that experience nibbaana are also not of this world, > lokuttara. They are different from seeing or hearing which experience > sense objects, objects of this world. > > D: yes, different > magga and phala means entering and achieving one of the 4 states of > nobilty , doesn't it? > > ------- > N: They are cittas, arising and then falling away. Maggacitta eradicates defilements and experiences nibbaana, phalacitta is lokuttara vipaakacitta that experiences nibbaana. This is very peaceful, because the defilements relevant to the stage that has been reached have been already eradicated by the preceding magga-citta. These cittas fall away but from those moments on one has become an ariyan of the stage that has been reached. ------ > D: due to below , a bit of correction : one talks about supra- and > the other about super-mundane > ------- N: It is a same, supra or super. ------- > > > D: One may indeed question whether magga and phala isn't above > the > world, i.e. supermundane, the highest of lokiya, whereas > nibbana is > > beyond /transcendent = supramundane , lokuttara> > > In such way we would speak of the supermundane Noble Path , the > > Noble Ones are developing/passing. > ------ N: When we are more precise, we do not speak of path in a figurative way. The path: cetasikas accompanying citta, and when citta is lokuttara all eight factors that are cetasikas are also lokuttara. Thus, path is not a concept, it is citta and cetasikas. ------- > > ------- > > D : Are magga (moments) and phala (moments) of the -e.g. - > sotaapanna 'Lokuttara citta experiences nibbaana' ? > ----- > N: correct. ------ > D: as : 'magga , phala and the unconditioned element , the former > two are different from nibbana . > So perhaps one may conclude these are not of our world ,i.e realms/ > states higher than that , but not nibbana (? ) > In that case -as suggested above -lokuttara involves the super > mundane (the former) and the supra mundane (nibbana) , doesn't it? > -------- N: Magga and p[hala are different from nibbaana. Nibbaana is the object of maggacitta and phalacitta. For super and supra, see above. ------- > ----- > N: Seeing experience visible object without thinking. That is > correct. They are both paramattha dhammas. But also concepts can be > known without thinking.----- > > > D: Concept all that what is given a name (which gives meaning of > > the experience ) > > > ------ > N: Concept: that what denotes an idea by a name and also that what is denoted, the idea. There are many kinds of concepts, it is a wide area. ------- > N: Nibbaana is an ultimate reality, but it is unconditioned. Naama > and ruupa in daily life are also ultimate realities, different from > concepts like events and stories. We do not have to name them > ultimate realities. In being aware of them we learn the meaning of > ultimate as different from conventional truth. > > D: I trhink what is different , is better understood be different > names/terms which of course is a matter of agreement in communication. > Ultimate sounds to me final , whereas' absolute' seems to me > fitting as disctintion from the conventional truth ... > ------- N: Absolute or ultimate, whatever term one prefers. It does not matter, so long as we understand the difference between reality and concept. ------- > > > N:Conventional truth like events, stories are not the objects the > Buddha taught us to develop right understanding of. > > D: as the Dhamma is a gradual teaching ,the level of right > understanding must inivolve different approaches , e.g. with > stories and events , of which we find plenty in the Sutta Pitaka . > The more advanced teaching in terms of absolute truth like > Abhidhamma needs quite a fair basic understanding. > For the untrained /uneducated mind a simple approach aims also to > develop right understanding. > ------ N: Yes, different approaches, depending on the listener. Some people have accumulations to understand Abhidhamma, they get it right form the beginning. No rule. -------- > N: If there is no mettaa yet, we > should train, she said. There is so much akusala and we should > develop each kind of kusala. Not be fixed on gain or profit for > ourselves. We should not pay lip service to metta while reciting > the sutta. I like the exhortation to develop each and every kind of > kusala. > > D: I am noting 'to develop' , to 'train ' ... isn't that a nice > reminder for the no-action proponents? > ------ N: For everybody. We all need reminders. Kh Sujin added: She also explained that one may know the name of realities, but characteristic should be known. In the case of metta, it is an element that knows, different from ruupa that does not know anything. When sati arises it can be known as a reality, not my metta. People complain the lack of sati, but this shows that there has not been enough listening and considering yet. Through listening and considering there can be gradually more understanding and this will condition the arising of direct awareness. -------- Nina. #123328 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:30 pm Subject: Re: grieve of beloved ones sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, We just had quite a long chat and you asked me to write something about it on DSG to remind you of the points and "program" we discussed. You started off by saying how unhappy you were because Luraya had "left" you. It seems she hadn't realised how "bad" your friends were or how serious your addictions were. She also thought that if your "Dhamma way" was right, it should help you more. I suggested that Luraya clearly really cares for you and has tried her very best to help, but at this stage it's too much for her and she needs to return to the support of her own friends and family whilst you get the urgent medical treatment you need. You wanted to phone her straight after our call and I suggested that you should be understanding rather than demanding of Luraya. Instead of crying and begging her to return, better to thank her for her wonderful friendship and care. Start the methadone treatment or whatever treatment you and your doctor decide on and then let Luraya know what you're doing. Be brave. In the end, we all have to go it alone, alone with each citta now. I mentioned how an alcoholic, a diabetic, an epileptic or anyone else with a health problem has to get the treatment - one day at a time. If one ends up taking medicine for life, so be it. There can still be the growth of understanding at any time at all. Needing care and treatment doesn't me one is a "bad" person - we all need treatment and care - just different accumulations, different problems in life. As Rob K's example shows, someone can be an alcoholic (or a murderer) even, but still develop the insight and become enlightened. We all know you have a lot of confidence in the Dhamma and it is the Dhamma that will really assist during this difficult time. How many difficult times or "humps" have we gone through in samsara, life after life? Countless - like the tears in the ocean, we've wept so much. I suggested that during your treatment, you need to keep away from "bad" company and if there is any real emergency, such as when you know you're about to take the drugs, just get yourself to the emergency department as Ken H suggested or to your doctor or a counselling centre at the university. You also mentioned not going to your classes because you feel so weak and I suggested that you need to get outside first thing every morning before you reach for the coffee and drugs. Find out about morning yoga classes at the university or swimming or walking or tai chi - some gentle exercise where you spend time with people who are not drinking or taking drugs, but doing something healthy. I think this would help a lot. After that, you might find you can make it to the uni classes or library. We also talked about the computer project you're doing with Pt. You are now both the "DSG technical moderators". You're going to be assisting Pt with his programming projects. He tells me you have great skills in this area and you can help us a lot with UP and so on. Spend a little time each day on these different projects. Finally, we just touched on the topic of your family. You mentioned that you've quarrelled badly and they don't understand you. Like Pt mentioned before, I think that these kinds of problems are very common when we're in our 20s, but sooner or later we have to resolve them and we have to learn to show the respect to our parents that they deserve, however difficult the relationship is. I'm sure they must really care about you and be concerned for your welfare. It takes time, I know, so just keep it in mind. By being the understanding person, understanding others' weaknesses and foibles and difficulties, we think less about ourselves and our problems. Nina quoted a helpful text from K.Sujin's book on Meritorious Deeds recently. There was a passage which struck me about how when there is more metta, there is less unhappiness all round. Here's the passage: "Sujin: At the moment the citta is coarse it means that there is no happiness. Even though a person does not yet give expression to rudeness through body or speech, he is not able to make someone else whom he meets or who is close happy. This shows us that a person whose citta is coarse has no mettaa, loving kindness, for someone else. Because when the citta is coarse, a person cannot be intent on making someone else happy, or on giving assistance or helping him so that he is free from distress. If the citta has a high degree of coarseness there will be behaviour and speech which is not polite, not gentle, without thoughtfulness and kindness. He will cause unhappiness and distress to someone else who has to face such behaviour and speech. It is evident that one hurts or harms someone else and causes his unhappiness by different kinds of akusala kamma, such as killing him or causing harm to his body, taking away his possessions, sexual misbehaviour with regard to his wife or children and other evil deeds. Even unwholesome deeds and unwholesome speech of a lesser degree which originate from the citta which is harsh are bound to disturb the happiness of other people. If someone has mettaa for others and if he trains himself in politeness and gentleness, he will lessen the strength of the defilement of dosa, aversion, the reality which is harsh. Courtesy and gentleness are wholesome qualities which are included in siila, because kusala siila, wholesome moral conduct, subdues and eliminates the defilements which condition evil deeds by body and speech." S: I found this full of helpful reminders. We all need to hear Dhamma reminders again and again. I also suggested that when you feel tired, you might spend an hour a day listening to the recordings of discussions with Sujin and spend some time here every day reading and discussing posts. You were worried about what you could or could not say and I stressed that we're your friends and we wish to give you support - so just say and discuss what you like. If you want to mention your medical condition or Luraya, it doesn't matter at all. We're your friends. Lukas, get the treatment you urgently need. You wouldn't advise a diabetic to delay his insulin injections and in the same way, we urge you not to delay getting the methadone or other treatment your doctor recommends. We know you're scared and feeling lonely, but once you get on top of the addiction problems (and the side effects you mentioned which are causing serious complications), the sooner you'll begin to feel more at ease and good friends like Luraya and everyone here will be able to offer more support. Let us know how it goes. With metta Sarah ======= #123329 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:46 pm Subject: Re: Family Picture sarahprocter... Dear Norbert, Yawares & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Yawares Sastri" wrote: > I saw your picture and I think I should join the club....so I post my family picture today(years ago picture, used in my passport when coming to stay in USA). > > I wish to see Nina and Sarah's pictures too. .... S: Thank you both for sharing your pics. We've done some "housekeeping" in the photos section and put your pics in the "Members" album and some other ones in "Significant others". We just keep the pics to 3 albums - "Members", "Significant Others" and "DSG meetings". For space reasons, we clear out other pics that are not in these albums from time to time. Hope others will also add their pics or those of "significant others". Like Norbert, I'd also like to see a recent pic of you Yawares as well as your lovely old one. A friend did take a recent pic of Jon and I on our last anniversary, so will ask him to upload it. Meanwhile, in the "members" album, you can find some older pics of us, one or two nice ones of Nina and other DSG members, including a lovely one of Han from one of our meetings. (It could be in "DSG meetings" - I forget now. Metta Sarah p.s Norbert, Yawares & all, pls remember to trim your messages. If you're not clear on this, pls drop me a note off-list to help further. ======== #123330 From: "USO" Date: Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:33 pm Subject: how is buddhism and deterministic chaos related? sakyaputtiyo can anyone point out the differences and similarities between the teachings of the Buddha and deterministic chaos. #123331 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:56 pm Subject: Lukas - note from Phil sarahprocter... (Phil asked me to f/w this to the list) Hi Sarah (and Lukas) In my opinion suggesting to someone who is currently prone to coarse cittas that it would be better to have wholesome cittas is likely to be discouraging to tge person. Wholesome cittas arise instead of coarse cittas due to a compkex web of conditions. Belueving that we can give rise to wholesome cittas in a friend by telling him hiw helpful they are indicates a belief in control over cittas, in my opinion. Lyjas will get treatment or he won't, he will be prone to coarse cittas or he won't. I hope he does, and I hope there are more whokesome cittas for him, but nothing I or anyone here can say will decide rgat. I think the rwally liberating thing abour Dhamma is anattaness of wverything we itgerwise seek to control. Good luck Lukas, I hope dhammas perform functions in a way that leads you to helpful treatment. But if you continue to be prone to coarse cittas you are no better or worse, that's just a story told by disorted cittas (vipalassas) tgat are fascinated by stories about people, including our selves. Please post this Sarah, but I have nithing furtger to add on it, so no reply please. See you again/talk to you again next year. Thanks! :) Phil #123332 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:58 pm Subject: Re: Lukas - note from Phil - a p.s. sarahprocter... p.s. from Phil PS, I wrote you are no better or worse if there are wholesome cittas. Of course wholesome cittas are better than coarse ones, and helpful behaviour is better than harmful behaviour. But the story of Lukas being a good person is just as much of a fantasy as Lukas being a bad person. It's better to understand bad dhammas than try to have good dhammas based in a story about Lukas. Let's understand our defilements, we've had countless lifetimes full of them. The opportunity to understand defilements as anatta etc is infinitely more valuable than managing somehow to be a nice person in this drop in a sea of sorrow one single lifetime! Phil From: philco777@... Hi Sarah (and Lukas) In my opinion suggesting to someone who is currently prone to coarse cittas that it would be better to have wholesome cittas is likely to be discouraging to tge person. Wholesome cittas arise instead of coarse cittas due to a compkex web of conditions. Belueving that we can give rise to wholesome cittas in a friend by telling him hiw helpful they are indicates a belief in control over cittas, in my opinion. Lyjas will get treatment or he won't, he will be prone to coarse cittas or he won't. I hope he does, and I hope there are more whokesome cittas for him, but nothing I or anyone here can say will decide rgat. I think the rwally liberating thing abour Dhamma is anattaness of wverything we itgerwise seek to control. <....> #123333 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:36 pm Subject: Re: Lukas - note from Phil szmicio Dear Phil, Sarah I think exactly the same. I am prone to coarse cittas all the time, but this is conditioned. No choosing. Some people may be prone to subtle cittas and are happy and smiled, but who knows, lobha,lobha,lobha. I prefer not to put much effort to be kind to someone or whatever, at least no lobha at such moment. Just dosa. But I appreciate the reminder from Acharn, that Sarah quoted. But of course I am not so good with samatha panna developement. Best wishes Lukas > But if you continue to be prone to coarse cittas you are no better or worse, that's just a story told by disorted cittas > (vipalassas) tgat are fascinated by stories about people, including our > selves. #123334 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:29 pm Subject: Nice Album Pictures! yawares1 Dear Sarah and Nina, Thanks for all the nice pictures, nice to see both of you with Khun Sujin, Brother Han, and all members. If you don't mind, I would like to see you and Nina's pictures when you both were young in the album too. This album pictures make my day, yawares #123335 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] how is buddhism and deterministic chaos related? upasaka_howard Dear Bhante - In a message dated 3/19/2012 5:55:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, bhikkhusobhana@... writes: can anyone point out the differences and similarities between the teachings of the Buddha and deterministic chaos. =============================== I didn't know the term 'deterministic chaos'. I found an article on it at the following web site: _http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/CHAOS.html_ (http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/CHAOS.html) What I glean from this article is merely that conditionality is often more complex and subtle than one might at first realize, but it is still (deterministic) conditionality. Do you view it otherwise, Sir? There seem to be no intrinsic probabilistic elements involved in this notion, although it seems that there are more generally in quantum mechanics. I happen to have a hypothesis/conjectiure about so-called free will that involves both deterministic and probabilistic conditionality, but this is just some musing of my own and not of importance. The Dhamma doesn't seem to me to involve any elements of probability, at least not explicitly, probability being little addressed by the Buddha as far as I can tell, and is thus either not truly an aspect of things or, if it is, then is among the leaves not held in the Buddha's hand. (I do think of such things as the sea turtle simile for a human birth, but this is quite conventional and is a rare instance of probability being discussed.) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #123336 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lukas - note from Phil upasaka_howard Hi, Lukas - In a message dated 3/19/2012 7:36:46 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, szmicio@... writes: Dear Phil, Sarah I think exactly the same. I am prone to coarse cittas all the time, but this is conditioned. ------------------------------------------- HCW: No kamma included in that conditioning? ----------------------------------------- No choosing. Some people may be prone to subtle cittas and are happy and smiled, but who knows, lobha,lobha,lobha. I prefer not to put much effort to be kind to someone or whatever, at least no lobha at such moment. --------------------------------------------- HCW: Purposely putting forth no effort is a choice, is it not? Does acting kindly have no salutary effect? ----------------------------------------------- Just dosa. But I appreciate the reminder from Acharn, that Sarah quoted. But of course I am not so good with samatha panna developement. Best wishes Lukas ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #123337 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:12 am Subject: Re: grieve of beloved ones szmicio Dear Robert > That the Goenka people have banned you I would take as an auspicious sign. L: Robert can you explain what u mean? Best wishes Lukas p.s What about sadness,grieve, weak bodily feelings, sorrow and mental unpleasant feeling? I feel them a lot recently. Any way out of it? Best wishes Lukas #123338 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddha's Saying, attention to Lukas szmicio Dear Nina, Do you have more extracts about Bhante Dhammadharo from Mr. Tadao. Maybe he remembers any teachings, reminders from Ven Dhammadharo? Best wishes Lukas > Lukas, I have a correspondance with Tadao who was a novice when Ven. > Dhammadharo was a monk. He wrote to me: one of the brightest persons, if not the brightest person, I've > encountered in my life. His life was short but he had accumulated a > great and great amount of merit because of his helping others to > understand Dhamma.> #123339 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:09 am Subject: Re: Lukas - note from Phil szmicio Hi Howard, > I think exactly the same. I am prone to coarse cittas all the time, but > this is conditioned. > ------------------------------------------- > HCW: > No kamma included in that conditioning? > ----------------------------------------- L: Yes, there is intention, but this is not Self. It's conditioned. Abstaining from bad deeds, there is intention, but not yours. Just arise and fall away. This is kusala moment. Best wishes Lukas #123340 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:14 am Subject: Buddha's Verses [ Translated from the Pβli by F. Max Mόller @sacredtexts.com ] yawares1 Dear Members, This manic Monday, I would like to share 5 nice verses with you all. ********** 1. All that we are is the result of what we have thought: it is founded on our thoughts, it is made up of our thoughts. If a man speaks or acts with an evil thought, pain follows him, as the wheel follows the foot of the ox that draws the carriage. 2. All that we are is the result of what we have thought: it is founded on our thoughts, it is made up of our thoughts. If a man speaks or acts with a pure thought, happiness follows him, like a shadow that never leaves him. 3. 'He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,'--in those who harbour such thoughts hatred will never cease. 4. 'He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,'--in those who do not harbour such thoughts hatred will cease. 5. For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule. *********** Love Buddha's dhamma, yawares #123341 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddha's Saying, attention to Lukas nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 19-mrt-2012, om 14:19 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Do you have more extracts about Bhante Dhammadharo from Mr. Tadao. > Maybe he remembers any teachings, reminders from Ven Dhammadharo? ------ N: I ask him next time, but since he is so busy teaching I do not want to bother him. ----- Nina. #123342 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:53 am Subject: Re: grieve of beloved ones rjkjp1 Hi lukas, If the goenka crowd is thinking that what they are doing is vipassana, but it turns out it is wrong path, then you are lucky to be away from them. Unpleasant feeling is just unpleasant feeling. Think about it, these feelings are conditioned to arise. Usually we make it worse though because we have the wish/belief/idea that they would not come. Its a resistance against what is actually happening, a struggling against reality in a way. Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Robert > > > That the Goenka people have banned you I would take as an auspicious sign. > > L: Robert can you explain what u mean? > > Best wishes > Lukas > > p.s > What about sadness,grieve, weak bodily feelings, sorrow and mental unpleasant feeling? I feel them a lot recently. Any way out of it? > > Best wishes > Lukas > #123343 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:02 am Subject: Re: Lukas - note from Phil epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > (Phil asked me to f/w this to the list) > > > Hi Sarah (and Lukas) In my opinion suggesting to someone who is currently prone to coarse cittas that it would be better to have wholesome cittas is likely to be discouraging to tge person. Wholesome cittas arise instead of coarse cittas due to a compkex web of conditions. Belueving that we can give rise to wholesome cittas in a friend by telling him hiw helpful they are indicates a belief in control over cittas, in my opinion. Lyjas will get treatment or he won't, he will be prone to coarse cittas or he won't. I hope he does, and I hope there are more whokesome cittas for him, but nothing I or anyone here can say will decide rgat. I think the rwally liberating thing abour Dhamma is anattaness of wverything we itgerwise seek to control. Good luck Lukas, I hope dhammas perform functions in a way that leads you to helpful treatment. But if you continue to be prone to coarse cittas you are no better or worse, that's just a story told by disorted cittas > (vipalassas) tgat are fascinated by stories about people, including our > selves. Please post this Sarah, but I have nithing furtger to add on it, so no reply please. See you again/talk to you again next year. Thanks! :) Phil I think everything you said is worthwhile, except for your request that no one reply to the message. You don't need to reply to the reply if you don't want to, but such a note implies that people should not discuss or respond to what you have said. People may reply to the message to discuss the content, even if you choose not to participate. It may not have to involve you at all. Thanks in any case for your interesting thoughts on this subject. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #123344 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lukas - note from Phil upasaka_howard Hi, Lukas - In a message dated 3/19/2012 11:10:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, szmicio@... writes: Hi Howard, > I think exactly the same. I am prone to coarse cittas all the time, but > this is conditioned. > ------------------------------------------- > HCW: > No kamma included in that conditioning? > ----------------------------------------- L: Yes, there is intention, but this is not Self. It's conditioned. ------------------------------------------- HCW: Of course. ----------------------------------------- Abstaining from bad deeds, there is intention, but not yours. ------------------------------------------ HCW: How about "yours"? ;-) The Buddha certainly said that each of us is heir to his own kamma.The Buddha certainly distinguished between beings, and he surely meant something by that. --------------------------------------- Just arise and fall away. This is kusala moment. ---------------------------------------- HCW: Are there no choices, then? Just helpless victims us? Reading the Buddha's teachings about wholesome and unwholesome kamma is more than idle passing of time. The Buddha didn't teach just to hear himself speak. Surely he expected that it would bear fruit in actions. There never was a teaching to the effect "You do whatever you want, and there is no option for acting otherwise." ------------------------------------------ Best wishes Lukas ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #123345 From: Lukas Date: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:11 am Subject: attachment thinks szmicio Dear friends, I was listening with my brother Adam, Dhamma discussion from Acharn - 2011-03-09-KK-am-a (part 1 - dont remember the link to this on dsg site, but it should be 9th March 2011 KK) I found some difficulties with understanding one part on 'thinking'. Also the language is a bit to fast and I found some parts unclear to me, at the end of this talk. Could anyone pls check if I transcribed it correctly? This is 28:00 minute I am quite sure I wrote it correctly. And I dont get it fully. Acharn says: 'What thinks? Attachment thinks? When one is thinking that I am thinking with attachment, but actually it is attachment which thinks'. The point is: Acharn states that it is attachment that thinks. But in what sense? I thought that vitaka thinks and attachement may be there also, but attachment does not perform the function of thinking. So isnt it like thinking with attachement that is more correct to say? Best wishes Lukas #123346 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:17 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Lukas - note from Phil epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > HCW: > Are there no choices, then? Just helpless victims us? Reading the > Buddha's teachings about wholesome and unwholesome kamma is more than idle > passing of time. The Buddha didn't teach just to hear himself speak. Surely he > expected that it would bear fruit in actions. There never was a teaching to > the effect "You do whatever you want, and there is no option for acting > otherwise." I agree with you, Howard. Cetana is arising in every moment and it can promote kusala or akusala, even though there is no self to do so. In recognizing kusala and recognizing the cetana that intends kusala, kusala is promoted. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #123347 From: Eddie L Date: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Political Activity by Monks eddielou_us Hi gazita, I do not know a whole lot but I think there are a lot to it (that is - natural truth) than meets the eyes, so to speak. What we see and discern daily are the regular common size natural phenomena, then there are the very large size (like astronomical like heavenly bodies such as earth, sun, moon) and the microscopic or subatomic-size level-related natural phenomena that human kind is beginning to be able discern them. The tunnel effect of and duality nature of electron and maybe also many subatomic particles (or waves) are well known in the world of Physics. We are barely scratching the outer surface of many mysteries of natural phenomena. Say even at nano size level, a lot of new natural phenomena are discovered. It was said gold at nano size exhibit red color like copper! not usual yellow gold color that we know at our regular size level!! So I think Buddha with his all-knowing abilities must have many answers or technically can find solution to those daunting questions quickly with superhuman concentration and wisdom. I am not totally sure if Buddha is not that all-knowing because we can never see him again once he reached Nibbhana, never to be reborn again & again into this never ending Samsara of more suffering than happiness (like it or not we have to live with this suffering cycle!). Do not see them as "magic, miracles or superstition", nothing like that if and only if we know the underlying scientific causes (causes as in cause & effect relationships). Due to our limited knowledge/wisdom/capabilities or ignorance, we tend to see unusual phenomena as "magic, miracles or superstition". Of course some fake or illusions as in magic shows are fake, delusional "magic, miracles or superstition". Such cause & effect relationships are so intertwined and complicated and meshed around with single/multiple causes creating single/multiple effects. And next level is the resultant single/multiple effects now become single/multiple causes. This triggering goes on so complex, it is said only a "fully" enlightened Buddha can decipher and understand such linkages with his superhuman mental concentration of wisdom. And there are a lot of such "fully" enlightened Buddhas that had come and gone to Nibbhana and preaching and explaining the very same Dharma.Β Dharma is (I could be wrong, based on what I understand) explanation about the (Everything as brought up in Superstring Theory as Theory of Everything) "all" the natural phenomena. Einstein's Theory of Relativity explains only a part but a sizable piece though, I would think, trying to get to Unified Field Theory, he did not finish it, sad. That Unified Field Theory should explain all the fields (Gravitational, Electromagnetic field, etc.), some even say Superstring theory is to take the place of it. But if Superstring Theory turns out to be the theory of Everything, then it is "All" including Unified Field Theory. Anyway then can we say we have a big part of Buddha's wisdom or should I humbly just say - knowledge, then? That is all for now, we will see but to me, I do not see any light in the tunnel yet. On the contrary, humankind is getting ever farther away from wisdom, we may gain some knowledge but not the wisdom. Just see so many more injustice, treacheries, murders, greed, all kinds of vices, multiplying even more rapidly...for lack of understanding of true Dharma. One such is like hatred breeds more hatred, Greed breeds more greed, open ended, never ending, thus never ending ocean of sufferings, less and less "true" tranquility and happiness, which most of us think we are reaching out. In fact, more greed gets us even farther away from such happiness!! Happiness can only be found within oneself! Empower oneself!!! Trying my best to answer your question, my opinion is that many things are possible. Do not forget Shaolin Buddhist temple was founded hundreds if not a thousand or so years ago (I think is it 1,500 years ago!) by no other than the pioneering Indian Buddhist monk Bodhi Dharmo, who was said to be frustrated with teaching true Dharma to local Chinese that he got this Kung Fu skills which is supposed to combine both physical & mind components (One important aspect of Buddha's teachings!) to reach "all-powerful" mindfulness and thus also achieve superhuman capabilities/skills. But sadly, it turns out to be used for fighting "also". So IMHO, "most" of Shaolin Buddhist temple monks' feats are real, they are not magicians. Will you call Navy Seals magicians? Full capacity is said to be only achieved with having both of above-mentioned physical & mind components. Mind component is what seems to be left out often, making it prone to killing and abusing , much to the dismay of the founder?? Maybe, at least not what he wants. But again I understand, Shaolin Buddhist temple had its historical reasons for doing what it did with great Buddhist restraints of not killing and maiming.Sometimes, it is plain destiny if after we try all our best and not just blaming luck. Hi Sarah, I can not contain or shorten it to what you may wish (that can take a lot of extra time editing/compressing to do so, without losing what I want to share foolishly??). Sorry about the lengthy reply. I just want you to know I do keep your admonishment in mind and try my best in this modern busy world. Hope for your understanding. Frankly, in the beginning, I was thinking about just sending privately to Gazita but then I wish to share with whoever would like to read. Metta Eddie. ________________________________ From: azita To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 6:07 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Political Activity by Monks Β Hallo Eddie, Do you really think that the Shaolin monks activities are close to natural truth, as you put it? I know wondrous things can be performed when 'magical' powers are developed eg. being able to disappear from one place and appear in another as quickly as it takes to blink the eye; or walk on water, or walk thro walls, however I personally think that has nothing todo with Buddhas teachings. the only connection I see is that anything is possible when the right set of conditions are there, but I think great physical feats are in truth jst concepts when a moment of right understanding of arises and knows the present for what it really is ; anicca, dukkha, anatta. <....> #123348 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] attachment thinks nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 19-mrt-2012, om 18:11 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > The point is: Acharn states that it is attachment that thinks. But > in what sense? I thought that vitaka thinks and attachement may be > there also, but attachment does not perform the function of > thinking. So isnt it like thinking with attachement that is more > correct to say? ------ N: We can use the term thinking in a more precise sense, like vitakka cetasika that hits the object so that citta can experience it. But we can also use the term thinking in a wider sense, like experiencing an object through the mind-door. There is nothing wrong with that. It can serve as a reminder to say: attachment thinks. This shows the power of attachment, shows how it comes in all the time on account of all the objects that impinge on the senses and the mind-door. It follows us like a shadow. Hard to escape it. ----- Nina. #123349 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lukas - note from Phil upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 3/19/2012 2:17:13 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: In recognizing kusala and recognizing the cetana that intends kusala, kusala is promoted. ============================ Yes. :-) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #123350 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:33 am Subject: Re: grieve of beloved ones szmicio Dear RobK > If the goenka crowd is thinking that what they are doing is vipassana, but it turns out it is wrong path, then you are lucky to be away from them. L: Yes, that's why I've decided to not taking anymore courses. Just a lot lobha, lobha, lobha. concentrations... but life is so simple. No one needs to be like this or like that. Just Dhamma. Not looking for anything. > Unpleasant feeling is just unpleasant feeling. Think about it, these feelings are conditioned to arise. > > Usually we make it worse though because we have the wish/belief/idea that they would not come. Its a resistance against what is actually happening, a struggling against reality in a way. L: Very good reminder. I will be remember it. Best wishes Lukas #123351 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:07 am Subject: Double standard truth_aerator Dear all, >If the goenka crowd is thinking that what they are doing is >vipassana, but it turns out it is wrong path, then you are lucky to >be away from them. >============================================ Why is it wrong to engage in meritorious activity (meditation), and yet is fine with engaging in akusala activity? Maybe this is the reason why akusala arises again and again. One feels fine in engaging in it and yet when it comes to doing kusala - "no way! Its just self trying to control realities! No understanding!". >Unpleasant feeling is just unpleasant feeling. Think about it, >these feelings are conditioned to arise. >============== If one would truly treat it that way then meditation would be an easiest thing "to do". >Usually we make it worse though because we have the wish/belief/idea >that they would not come. Its a resistance against what is actually >happening, a struggling against reality in a way. >========== As I understand it: alcohol, drugs, daydreaming, workaholism (if not financially required) etc, is an escape from facing things as they really are. One resists the unsatisfactoriness of present moment and tries to get somewhere else. "No understanding" in my opinion is trying to alter the dukkha of life by such escapes. IMHO, talking about "no self! no self!" and yet acting as if one is full of belief in a self is only sign of right words rather than real understanding achieved only by following Dhamma. Words that are not backed by action (in body, speech and mind) are empty sounds. If one truly understands no Self, then meditation would be the easiest thing to do. One could sit down and drop into deep state with no problem. Why no problem? Because one isn't disturbed by "I want this or that! I don't want this! I want something other than this ache, pain, boredom, etc". "I want" is expression of sensual desire, restlessness and can easily lead to dislike (dosa) of present moment when it becomes "I want to feel good rather than bad". etc. With best wishes, Alex #123352 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:20 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Off-topic: On Knowing the Vinaya-pitaka dhammasaro Any discussion? To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com From: dhammasaro@... Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 03:57:39 -0500 Good friend Scott, et al You recently wrote in part: ................................... This morning, after a busy weekend and an unending dog-bowel, the neighbour placed a piece of my dog's feces on my front steps. I had failed, for once, to pick it up. So sue me. I come home after a long day at work to find this passive-aggressive missive on my front porch steps. Dog s***. Needless to say, Dhamma aside, I thought ill of this narrow-minded, self-centred, not-minding-his-own-business, petty s.o.b. of a neighbour. ................................. May I share a somewhat similar experience? Observing no objection... I shall continue... [beeg Texican smiles] 1. Before retiring, I was a volunteer civil court meditation person for the Atlantic and Cape May counties in New Jersey. 2. On a residential property which I rented with a business associate; she observed a neighbor's dog defecating. Our former tenants also had complained!!! She took the defecation and returned it to the neighbor's front porch!!! [I can imagine how!!!] We were summoned with some civil action... she was guilty... the judge suggested "mediation." Agreed!!! To today, I feel sorry for the mediator... I dragged the mediation process almost four hours as I well knew the mediation process... The final agreement: The dog would always be under control by an adult, the adult would have both shovel and bag, retrieve all doggie deposits anywhere within the town, only twice a day, between 8 AM & 6 PM. Why did we win? Clearly, my associate broke the law!!! Do not understate the power to negotiate... a. Know the law - as in the Vinaya-pitaka. b. Be polite - as taught by the Historic Buddha. c. Be positive - as taught by the Historic Buddha. Never a problem since... they later had a swimming pool leaking problem and had weaken the wooden fence... it was their fence... they left a note... I personally visited them and told them to take their time in repairing. Their pool water was keeping most of our tenant's back yard grass green!!! [verily beeg Texican grins] 3. Questions: a, Did not the Historic Buddha teach knowing the Vinaya-pitaka? b. Did not the Historic Buddha teach being polite and being positive? c. Did not the Historic Buddha teach in the "gradual method" for all sentient beings? Such as in the amount of, "Dust in ones' eyes"? Discussion? yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck ............ rest deleted ............................ #123353 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:37 pm Subject: Dhamma - stress reduction? sarahprocter... Dear Friends, The following snippet is from the last afternoon in Kaeng Krachan earlier this year. Friends had raised some points regarding helping prisoners or others with serious behavioural problems with different counselling/stress reduction programmes, rather than just talking about realities. K.Sujin responds by discussing more about dhammas: KS: ....and seeing the danger of hatred or dislike which arises not just once many many times a day on and on without understanding, but when there is understanding, then one realises it is so very brief so very temporary, very short. What's the use of like or dislike of that which just arises and disappears all the time. Not just dislike, anything. T: I guess it's more of a theoretical question because its happening - people are teaching stress reduction programs all over the world .... Is there any value to the people who do it or is there just "nit noi" - little bit of value? KS: Why do we talk about realities? Because we know that they are only elements - everything is only different elements, right? But since there is the element of ignorance, so one sees the danger of ignorance and one sees the advantages of understanding. That's why we keep on talking about it, to have little by little some more understanding of reality which is better than any thing else, because no one can stop unwholesomeness when there's still ignorance but when there's more understanding it conditions many wholesome realities. P: A prisoner doing this kind of relaxation meditation might perform less akusala kamma patha in this lifetime, without understanding...but the fact that they perform less akusala kamma patha is something...it's not enough, but it's something. Suk: More ignorance...mistaking akusala for kusala. P: I guess I'm thinking they're not beating their family members, they're not killing their neighbours, they're not stealing ...thats something I guess, isn't it? KS: I think that not many people are interested to know or to understand reality at all. What about ourselves, oneself? If we don't understand, can we help others to understand? **** S: This also reminds me about the discussions on teaching Buddhism in schools or universities and so on. What about the understanding of realities which are arising and falling away even now? "If we don't understand, can we help others to understand?" Metta Sarah===== #123354 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma - stress reduction? nilovg Dear Sarah, Thank you for the excerpts. Talking about realities is to be preferred than considering anti stress programs. Best to go to the essence and this way of helping is far better, more effective. Nina Op 20-mrt-2012, om 8:37 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > What's the use of like or dislike of that which just arises and > disappears all the time. Not just dislike, anything....when there's > more understanding it conditions many wholesome realities. #123355 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:33 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Political Activity by Monks sarahprocter... Hi Eddie & all, i'll leave Azita or others to respond to your post as they wish. Just on this note at the end to me: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Eddie L wrote: > Hi Sarah, I can not contain or shorten it to what you may wish (that can take a lot of extra time editing/compressing to do so, without losing what I want to share foolishly??). Sorry about the lengthy reply. I just want you to know I do keep your admonishment in mind and try my best in this modern busy world. Hope for your understanding. > > > Frankly, in the beginning, I was thinking about just sending privately to Gazita but then I wish to share with whoever would like to read. ... S: I'm glad you share your reflections on the list and not privately. We are here to discuss the Dhamma together. Your post isn't too long and there's been no suggestion from me that you should edit/compress your reflections at all. I didn't send any admonishment either, just a 'routine' trim reminder- this means, pls delete previous messages in the thread apart from enough of the last message for context only (as I've just done). This saves time and space for those who back up the archives, saves paper for those who print posts, makes scrolling through posts easier and so on. If you or anyone needs any assistance with this, pls let me or Pt know off-list. Pls keep joining in discussions and sharing your reflections. Metta Sarah ==== #123356 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:02 pm Subject: Assu Sutta: Tears [translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu] yawares1 Dear Members, Brother Han gave me this SUTTA to read. I love it very much, and wish to share with you all. *********** At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. What do you think, monks: Which is greater, the tears you have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — or the water in the four great oceans?" "As we understand the Dhamma taught to us by the Blessed One, this is the greater: the tears we have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — not the water in the four great oceans." "Excellent, monks. Excellent. It is excellent that you thus understand the Dhamma taught by me. "This is the greater: the tears you have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — not the water in the four great oceans. "Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a mother. The tears you have shed over the death of a mother while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — are greater than the water in the four great oceans. "Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a father... the death of a brother... the death of a sister... the death of a son... the death of a daughter... loss with regard to relatives... loss with regard to wealth... loss with regard to disease. The tears you have shed over loss with regard to disease while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — are greater than the water in the four great oceans. "Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released." ** See also: SN 15.13. ***************** Love Buddha's dhamma, yawares #123357 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace moellerdieter Hi Ken H, you wrote: > D: though I wonder whether you agree ----------------------------- KH: I hope you know now that I don't. :-) D: well, I don't have the impression that you try to find common ground KH: The way I see it, the Tipitaka is the common ground that you and I are starting from. We disagree in our respective understandings of the book. D: instead of the 45 volumes , we better talk about one single sutta. . -------------------------- . .> (> D: one needs to read in context the path is concept like the raft until it is developed/constructed and left behind after it served its aim ( see MN 22) ) --------------------------- KH: I can't follow that at all. ----------------------------------------- D: ok , if you are interested that we both discuss Dhamma then MN 22 offers a splendid opportunity . Translation and comments by Ven. Nyanaponika (who-B.T.W. - had a good knowledge of Abhidhamma too) . Please see (and read) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.022.than.html I can't imagine that we both manage common ground of mutual understanding by starting with abolute reality . with Metta Dieter #123358 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 moellerdieter Dear Nina, you wrote: N: The cittas that experience nibbaana are also not of this world, > lokuttara. They are different from seeing or hearing which experience > sense objects, objects of this world. > > D: yes, different > magga and phala means entering and achieving one of the 4 states of > nobilty , doesn't it?> > ------- N: They are cittas, arising and then falling away. Maggacitta eradicates defilements and experiences nibbaana, phalacitta is lokuttara vipaakacitta that experiences nibbaana. This is very peaceful, because the defilements relevant to the stage that has been reached have been already eradicated by the preceding magga-citta. These cittas fall away but from those moments on one has become an ariyan of the stage that has been reached. ------ > D: due to below , a bit of correction : one talks about supra- and > the other about super-mundane> ------- N: It is a same, supra or super. ------- D: , that is a matter of consent, Nina. As I see it , the main definition of Supra is 'transcendent ', i.e. beyond the world , whereas Super stands for 'best of ', 'hightened .' i.e. in this world... > > > D: One may indeed question whether magga and phala isn't above > the > world, i.e. supermundane, the highest of lokiya, whereas > nibbana is > > beyond /transcendent = supramundane , lokuttara> > > In such way we would speak of the supermundane Noble Path , the > > Noble Ones are developing/passing. > ------ N: When we are more precise, we do not speak of path in a figurative way. The path: cetasikas accompanying citta, and when citta is lokuttara all eight factors that are cetasikas are also lokuttara. Thus, path is not a concept, it is citta and cetasikas. ------- D: assumed Phala citta = lokuttara =experience of nibbana , in that moment the path is left behind (like a ' raft') ,because the designation (temporarily ) has been reached, isn't it? The path can be understood as a concept/guide to Nibbana . ------- > > D : Are magga (moments) and phala (moments) of the -e.g. - > sotaapanna 'Lokuttara citta experiences nibbaana' ? > ----- > N: correct. ------ D: commentary or canonical? My intuition says it is the former ;-) > D: as : 'magga , phala and the unconditioned element , the former > two are different from nibbana . > So perhaps one may conclude these are not of our world ,i.e realms/ > states higher than that , but not nibbana (? ) > In that case -as suggested above -lokuttara involves the super > mundane (the former) and the supra mundane (nibbana) , doesn't it? > -------- N: Magga and p[hala are different from nibbaana. Nibbaana is the object of maggacitta and phalacitta. For super and supra, see above. ------- D: what is different when Nibbana is experienced? > ----- > N: Seeing experience visible object without thinking. That is > correct. They are both paramattha dhammas. But also concepts can be > known without thinking.----- > > > D: Concept all that what is given a name (which gives meaning of > > the experience ) > > > ------ > N: Concept: that what denotes an idea by a name and also that what is denoted, the idea. There are many kinds of concepts, it is a wide area. D: Platon would object.. ;-) ------- > N: Nibbaana is an ultimate reality, but it is unconditioned. Naama > and ruupa in daily life are also ultimate realities, different from > concepts like events and stories. We do not have to name them > ultimate realities. In being aware of them we learn the meaning of > ultimate as different from conventional truth. > > D: I trhink what is different , is better understood be different > names/terms which of course is a matter of agreement in communication. > Ultimate sounds to me final , whereas' absolute' seems to me > fitting as disctintion from the conventional truth ... > ------- N: Absolute or ultimate, whatever term one prefers. It does not matter, so long as we understand the difference between reality and concept. ------- D: The preference of terms and its meaning is unfortunately a big hindrance when trying to understand eachother ( translation / semantics of Pali incl.) The/this being is no concept , it has been born and it will die , though in abolute reality there is only this D.O. stream of conditioned dhammas, marked by citta, cetasika and rupa. We call the former conventional and the later absolute reality (of experience ), don't we? Hence for the citta of the former, the absolute is concept/idea, whereas for the citta of the latter the conventional is the concept. > > N:Conventional truth like events, stories are not the objects the > Buddha taught us to develop right understanding of. > > D: as the Dhamma is a gradual teaching ,the level of right > understanding must inivolve different approaches , e.g. with > stories and events , of which we find plenty in the Sutta Pitaka . > The more advanced teaching in terms of absolute truth like > Abhidhamma needs quite a fair basic understanding. > For the untrained /uneducated mind a simple approach aims also to > develop right understanding. > ------ N: Yes, different approaches, depending on the listener. Some people have accumulations to understand Abhidhamma, they get it right form the beginning. No rule. D: I think 'some people' are the exception from the rule , expressed by Ven. Nyanatiloka : 'Before entering into the discussion of the contents of the seven Abhidhamma books, I wish to point out that the study of the Abhidhamma requires a previous thorough acquaintance with the fundamental teachings and ethical aims of Buddhism; and it is only to those who have fulfilled this preliminary condition that, by thus recapitulating their learning and by philosophically deepening their insight, the Abhidhamma may prove to be of real benefit.' with Metta Dieter #123359 From: Alex Date: Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nice Album Pictures! norbert_jaka... Hi Sarah en Nina, Indeed nice pictures! I enjoyed watching them.. Metta, Norbert 2012/3/19 Yawares Sastri > ** > > > Dear Sarah and Nina, > > Thanks for all the nice pictures, nice to see both of you with Khun Sujin, > Brother Han, and all members. If you don't mind, I would like to see you > and Nina's pictures when you both were young in the album too. > > This album pictures make my day, > yawares > > > #123360 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:03 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Political Activity by Monks dhammasaro Good friend Eddie, et al You may be interested in Message #120016. peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck [Rest deleted by Chuck) #123361 From: Eddie L Date: Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Political Activity by Monks eddielou_us Hi Sarah, Thanks. I misunderstood you, now I am clear. I myself am very thrift-conscious. It makes a lot of sense so am all supportive of saving wherever possible and make it a multiple-wins. Why have redundant multiple "identical" segments of passages saved thus wasting unnecessary storage space then printing and scrolling are yet other problems like you said, I could not have agreed more. Thanks again. Metta Eddie ________________________________ Β Hi Eddie & all, i'll leave Azita or others to respond to your post as they wish. Just on this note at the end to me: > Hi Sarah, I can not contain or shorten it to what you may wish (that can take a lot of extra time editing/compressing to do so, without losing what I want to share foolishly??). Sorry about the lengthy reply. I just want you to know I do keep your admonishment in mind and try my best in this modern busy world. Hope for your understanding. > > > Frankly, in the beginning, I was thinking about just sending privately to Gazita but then I wish to share with whoever would like to read. ... S: I'm glad you share your reflections on the list and not privately. We are here to discuss the Dhamma together. Your post isn't too long and there's been no suggestion from me that you should edit/compress your reflections at all. I didn't send any admonishment either, just a 'routine' trim reminder- this means, pls delete previous messages in the thread apart from enough of the last message for context only (as I've just done). This saves time and space for those who back up the archives, saves paper for those who print posts, makes scrolling through posts easier and so on. If you or anyone needs any assistance with this, pls let me or Pt know off-list. Pls keep joining in discussions and sharing your reflections. Metta Sarah ==== #123362 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:13 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Why Many Jubus (Jewish Buddhists) Seem to Favor Practice Over Theory dhammasaro Good friend Howard, et al It is some six months since we discussed this subject. Do you have the same opinion as you wrote last September. Just curious; no need to reply. Quote: HCW: No doubt it is "human nature," and in some cases the preference is due to study seeming "dry, boring, and unpleasant." However, I see the importance of practice as lying mainly in it being THAT which is the direct transformational mechanism, with study serving "only" as guide and corrective to that study. Study is also important, of course, because the understanding of what happens in practice and the insights gleaned from it - and even the approach to practice itself - can be faulty due to preconceived ideas and fundamental ignorance for which proper study can serve as protection. So, both are needed, but, IMO, and as you agree, practice "rules." -------------------------------------------------------- peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck [Rest deleted by Chuck] #123363 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Why Many Jubus (Jewish Buddhists) Seem to Favor Practice Over Theory upasaka_howard Hi, Chuck - In a message dated 3/20/2012 4:59:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dhammasaro@... writes: Good friend Howard, et al It is some six months since we discussed this subject. Do you have the same opinion as you wrote last September. Just curious; no need to reply. Quote: HCW: No doubt it is "human nature," and in some cases the preference is due to study seeming "dry, boring, and unpleasant." However, I see the importance of practice as lying mainly in it being THAT which is the direct transformational mechanism, with study serving "only" as guide and corrective to that study. Study is also important, of course, because the understanding of what happens in practice and the insights gleaned from it - and even the approach to practice itself - can be faulty due to preconceived ideas and fundamental ignorance for which proper study can serve as protection. So, both are needed, but, IMO, and as you agree, practice "rules." -------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- HCW: I think the guy you quoted really knew what he was talking about!! ;-)) --------------------------------------------------------------------- peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck ==================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #123364 From: "azita" Date: Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:48 pm Subject: Re: Political Activity by Monks gazita2002 Hallo Eddie, What Buddhas know is certainly beyond me, but I feel certain that the teachings of the Buddhas, if understood correctly will eventually lead to freedom from all the speculation about the teachings!! No doubt science etc are discovering many wondrous things, but will knowledge of these lead to enlightenment/Nibbana? Reminders of present moment arising and falling are important to me. The rest is fairly useless, but can be fun!!! Patience, courage and good cheer, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Eddie L wrote: > > Hi gazita, > > I do not know a whole lot but I think there are a lot to it (that is - natural truth) than meets the eyes, so to speak. What we see and discern daily are the regular common size natural phenomena, then there are the very large size ........ snip....... #123365 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:46 am Subject: One of my Dhamma Heroes: Ajahn Chah dhammasaro Good friends all, In the everyday common vernacular language, I truly wished I had met and I was a monk under Ajahn Chah... fortunately, I have had and have other great ajahns to continue to help me on my lonely path... plus the Tipitaka (The Dhamma-vinaya)... peace... Trust you will find these two You Tube video Dhamma Talks helpful in your path as it has in my lonely path... [Please advise if you can not view.] .................. Uploaded by sampajanna on May 26, 2011 Ajahn Nyanadhammo gives a Dhamma talk on what life was like living with Ajahn Chah. He tells many great stories of Ajahn Chah, and conveys how skillful a teacher he really was, always leading by example. The talk was given at the Ajahn Chah Remembrance Day on 16 January 2010 in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. The set of DVD's (Refuge in the Triple Gem), from which this talk was taken, has been sponsored for free distribution by generous supporters in Malaysia, with gratitude and respect for the Forest Sangha. If you wish to help such productions to continue to be made freely available, please contact sianmah@.... .................... In the Dhamma language it is "maipenrai "... do not get lost in the words of others... peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck Post script: I meditate my and our beloved HH The Thai Supreme Patriarch remains with us to continue to encourage us on our individual paths... Maipenrai has 2 files to share with you on SkyDrive. To view them, click the links below.Life with Ajahn Chah (1 of 2) by Ajahn Nyanadhammo(1).mp4Life with Ajahn Chah (2 of 2) by Ajahn Nyanadhammo.mp4Download all #123366 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:11 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Why Many Jubus (Jewish Buddhists) Seem to Favor Practice Over Theory dhammasaro Good friend Howard, Quote: HCW: I think the guy you quoted really knew what he was talking about!! ;-)) End quote. Fully agree... peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck [Rest deleted by Chuck] #123367 From: Eddie L Date: Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Political Activity by Monks eddielou_us Hi Azita, Based on whatever limited understanding of Buddha's teachings I have gathered, science is unraveling some portion of Dhamma, and it may not because of its limited scope mostly only in physical component and no or not at all enough in mind component, Science may not help us reach Nibbhana. About ..."Reminders of present moment arising and falling are important to me."... maybe one of the awareness as in Sathipathana, that is vital to achieving that goal. I know breathing in meditation is vital also. With Metta and Respect, Eddie ________________________________ Hallo Eddie, What Buddhas know is certainly beyond me, but I feel certain that the teachings of the Buddhas, if understood > > Hi gazita, > > I do not know a whole lot but I think there are a lot to it (that is - natural truth) than meets the eyes, so to speak. What we see and discern daily are the regular common size natural phenomena, then there are the very large size ........ snip....... #123368 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:00 pm Subject: Re: To Nina and Sarah sarahprocter... Dear Han, Thank you for sharing the Pali too - lots of snipping below --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > I know you like Vism VIII, 39. But I do not know whether you have the Paa.li text. So I print below. > > 176. Kha.naparittatoti paramatthato hi atiparitto sattaana.m jiivitakkha.no ekacittappavattimattoyeva. <...> > > 39. 8. As to the shortness of the moment: in the ultimate sense the life-moment of living beings is extremely short, being only as much as the occurrence of a single conscious moment. <...> > "Jiivita.m attabhaavo ca, sukhadukkhaa ca kevalaa; > Ekacittasamaayuttaa, lahu so vattate kha.no. <...> > "Life, person, pleasure, pain just these alone > Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. <...> > This is how death should be recollected as to the shortness of the moment. ... S: It's so very clear that life is only ever one short citta at a time, no matter whether it's a moment of seeing, a moment of kusala (- even a jhana citta or lokuttara citta) or a moment of akusala. Nothing at all worth clinging on to. Thank you for sharing various texts and your reflections. Here's a quote from the Tika which Nanamoli added: N. 11 (~Naa.namoli): "'Person' (atta-bhaava) is the states other than the already-mentioned life, feeling and consciousness. The words 'just these alone' mean that it is unmixed with self (attaa) or permanence' (Pm. 242). Attaa-bhaava as used in the Suttas and in this work is more or less a synonym for sakkaaya in the sense of person (body and mind) or personality, or individual form. "'When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead': just as in the case of the death-consciousness, this world is also called 'dead' in the hightest (ultimate) sense with the arrival of any consciousness whatever at its dissolution, since its cessation has no rebirth-linking (is 'cessation never to return'). Nevertheless, though this is so, 'the highest sense this concept will allow' (pa~n~natti paramatthiyaa)' - the ultimate sense will allow this concept of continuity, which is what the expression of common usage 'Tissa lives, Phussa lives' refers to, and which is based on consciousnesses [momentarily] existing along with a physical support; this belongs to the ultimate sense here, since, as they say, 'It is not the name and surname that lives' (Pm 242 and 801)."< Metta Sarah #123369 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:10 pm Subject: Re: The Story of Santati the Minister [ presented by Dr.Han Tun at SD and JTN ] sarahprocter... Dear Yawares, Han & LUKAS, I also like the tale of Santati and the reminder that insight can develop even when we're in the deepest sorrow: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Yawares Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Members, > > Beautiful Tuesday morning after the rain, the weather is so fresh with fog all around me, feel like I'm in dreamland. And it's the right time to post this wonderful story to share with you all. > > *************** > > The Story of Santati the Minister > > While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (142) of this book, with reference to Santati, the minister of King Pasenadi of Kosala. > > On one occasion, Santati the minister returned after suppressing a rebellion on the border. King Pasenadi was so pleased with him that he honoured the minister with the gift of the riches and glory of a ruler together with a dancing girl to entertain him for seven days. For seven days, the king's minister enjoyed himself to his heart's content, getting intoxicated with drink and infatuated with the young dancer. <...> While dancing, she suffered a severe stroke and collapsed, and at that instant she died with her eyes and mouth wide open. The minister was shocked and deeply distressed. In agony, he tried to think of a refuge and remembered the Buddha. He went to the Buddha, accompanied by his followers, and related to him about the grief and anguish he suffered on account of the sudden death of the dancer. He then said to the Buddha, "Venerable Sir! Please help me get over my sorrow; be my refuge, and let me have the peace of mind." To him the Buddha replied, "Rest assured my son, you have come to one, who could help you, One who could be a constant solace to you and who will be your refuge. The tears you have shed due to the death of this dancer throughout the round of rebirths is more than the waters of all the oceans." The Buddha then instructed the minister in verse. The meaning of the verse is as follows. > > "In the past there has been in you clinging (upadana) due to craving; get rid of it. In future, do not let such clinging occur in you. Do not also harbour any clinging in the present; by not having any clinging, craving and passion will be calmed in you and you will realize Nibbana." > > After hearing the verse, the minister attained arahatship. <...> > Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: > > Verse 142: Though he is gaily decked, if he is calm, free from moral defilements, and has his senses controlled, if he is established in Magga Insight, if he is pure and has laid aside enmity (lit., weapons) towards all beings, he indeed is a brahmana, a samana, and a bhikkhu. ... S: Anytime, any place ... if there is clear understanding of the cause of dukkha and the path, the insight into what is conditioned at this very moment, the way out of samsara can be found. Thx for sharing. Metta Sarah ===== #123370 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:22 pm Subject: Re: The Story of Khallatiya [ @YouTube ] sarahprocter... Dear Yawares, Rob K & all, #123254 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Yawares Sastri" wrote: > I watched this cute/funny story @ YouTube. I tried to find it online but I could not. So I had to write the story by myself, please forgive my bad English. > > *************** > > Khallatiya S: I also looked but failed to find the source of the story in English - only Chinese which makes me wonder if it's a Mahayana story. I wonder if Rob K or anyone else is familiar with it and knows if it's in the Pali texts. Metta Sarah ====== #123371 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:46 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > S: The vipaka may not even be "unpleasant". For example, at any moment of seeing or hearing of unpleasant rupas, the feeling is neutral. It is called akusala vipaka because it's the result of akusla kamma, that's all. > > Is the vedana for such moments always neutral? I wonder why that is...? Wouldn't a dhamma that was akusala tend to be something that would cause negative vedana? I don't think I quite get that. ..... S: Moments of seeing, hearing, smelling and tasting are accompanied by neutral vedana. Only moments of body consciousness are accompanied by either pleasant or unpleasant vedana (sukkha or dukkha) depending on whether they are kusala or akusala vipaka. This is said to be because because three of the primary elements, earth, fire and air impinge on the body-sense, the impact is said to be strong as compared to the balls of cotton-wool on an anvil being struck by a hammer. The hammer breaks through the cotton-wool and hits the anvil whereas for the other senses when derived rupas impact on the senses (visible object, sound etc), it is said to be like the balls of cotton-wool on the anvil being struck by other balls of cotton-wool. Remember that the vipaka is just result. Even though it is called "akusala vipaka" or "kusala vipaka", this is only referring to the kusala or akusala kamma patha of which it is a result. The vipaka itself is not kusala or akusala. .... > >S: Yes, as you point out, it is all the thinking with dosa afterwards which is the real unpleasantness. > >R: In any case, the attached negative thinking will cause the akusala to keep going. I guess you could have even something that causes negative vedana, and still have no negative proliferation follow it if there is detachment...? .... S: Like in the case of when the Buddha was attacked by Devadatta and had a splinter in his foot or when he was dying - akusala vipaka, unpleasant feeling accompanying the body-consciousness, but no aversion. For the arahats, the first dart, but not the second dart. It is the accumulation of negative thinking which leads to both our unhappiness and that in others, as the quote of K.Sujin's which Nina and I quoted stressed. ... > > S: Usually, there's just akusala thinking, proliferation, accumulating more akusala. It is only kamma patha which will bring results in future, when particular deeds are performed through body or speech, such as those causing harm to others which you've been discussing here. > >R: That has an interesting intersection with my conversation with Jon on the relation between conventional activity and dhammas. I guess the akusala kamma patha is produced as rupas...? .... S: The akusala kamma patha refers to cetana accumulated to the degree that it conditions speech or deeds (various rupas) through the various door-ways. .... >A little unclear how the kamma patha produces the vipaka, as opposed to the cetana which I understand as kamma itself. ... S: Kamma patha is kamma of a particular degree and fulfilled by various factors. It is this mental kamma, cetana, which conditions vipaka, also mental, by way of kamma paccaya. ... >R: I guess it is the cetana that is represented by the kamma patha that is the actual kamma involved...? [Sorry for confusion, but it's an interesting area...] .... S: Normally when kusala and akusala cittas arise during the day, such as when there is attachment or aversion to what's experienced through the senses, there is cetana (kamma) at such times, but it's not of the strength that we kill or steal or speak harshly. It is just accumulated kamma. When it is "completed" kamma patha only, such as when there is the deliberate killing of an animal, it is then said to be kamma patha, likely to bring results in future. ... > > S: No reason to blame others or circumstances for the experiences in a day, no matter what comes. Very gradually, through the development of right understanding, we become less susceptible to the worldly conditions, to the ideas of worldly events - such as politics and natural disaster as being the cause of the problems in life. Ignorance is the cause of ongoing life in samsara. Without a growing understanding of paramattha dhammas, there's no way out at all. > >R: So in a sense we are enclosed in a vipaka bubble made up of all experiences produced by the past - not really experiencing what is happening now at all...? If that is so, does panna have to break through the stream of vipaka to experience a current dhamma? Or is it the dhammas of vipaka that the panna has to see? [Very confused today, but very interesting area...] ... S: Of course, no "we" to be enclosed in anything. "Life, person, pleasure, pain: just these alone Join in one conscious moment that flicks by." Just moments of kusala, akusala, vipaka and kiriya citta - one at a time. Panna has to understand all kinds of dhammas that arise and fall away. Like now, there is seeing, there is hearing, there is like, dislike, pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling - just one appearing at a time which can be directly known as not-self. The rest - the worldly events, politics, natural disasters and so on are all just thoughts, ideas, not realities. Hope this helps. Metta Sarah ==== #123372 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:55 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: About the precept Vikalabhojana (Abstinence from taking food after midday) sarahprocter... Dear Ven Chandima, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Chandima Gangodawila wrote: > The informations is quite useful that you had given about Ven.Thanissaro. > I am the Theravada Buddhist Chaplain at the University of British Columbia > in Canada. > So I am staying in Vancouver, Canada. ... S: Thank you for letting us know. That's interesting. By the way, it was Christine who provided the links. As I understood the rule, no food or juice of any kind is eaten after midday. With respect and metta Sarah ====== #123373 From: han tun Date: Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Nina and Sarah hantun1 Dear Sarah, Sarah: It's so very clear that life is only ever one short citta at a time, no matter whether it's a moment of seeing, a moment of kusala (- even a jhana citta or lokuttara citta) or a moment of akusala. Nothing at all worth clinging on to. Thank you for sharing various texts and your reflections. Here's a quote from the Tika which Nanamoli added: --------------- Han: Thank you very much for your useful comment and the Note which Ven. ~Naa.namoli added. I also thank you for the following passage you had previously quoted. "Thus the Blessed One on that day, as when he established his new insight (abhinava-vipassanaa) while sitting cross-legged under the Mahaabodhi tree, freed the material and immaterial septads from all thickets and entanglements and mixed in fourteen ways and suppressed pain through great insight. He achieved that attainment, thinking, 'Let it not arise for ten months.' The pains which were suppressed by the attainment did not indeed occur for ten months." Following up to the above quote, I read Visudhimagga and I am now familiar with ruupa-sattaka, naama-sattaka, and mahaa vipassanaa. For those who love Paa.li I print below just the headings. [THE MATERIAL SEPTAD] [ruupasattakaa] (1) as taking up and putting down (aadaananikkhepanato), (2) as disappearance of what grows old in each stage (vayovu.d.dhattha"ngamato), (3) as arising from nutriment (aahaaramayato), (4) as arising from temperature (utumayato), (5) as kamma-born (kammajato), (6) as consciousness-originated (cittasamu.t.thaanato), and (7) as natural materiality (dhammataaruupato). [THE IMMATERIAL SEPTAD] [Aruupasattakasammasanakathaa] (1) by groups (kalaapato), (2) by pairs (yamakato), (3) by moments (kha.nikato), (4) by series (pa.tipaa.tito), (5) by removal of [false] view (di.t.thiugghaa.tanato), (6) by abolition of conceit (maanasamugghaa.tanato), (7) by ending of attachment (nikantipariyaadaanato). [THE EIGHTEEN PRINCIPAL INSIGHTS] [mahaavipassanaa] (1) One who develops the contemplation of impermanence abandons the perception of permanence, (1) Yaasu aniccaanupassana.m bhaavento niccasa~n~na.m pajahati, (2) one who develops the contemplation of pain abandons the perception of pleasure, (2) dukkhaanupassana.m bhaavento sukhasa~n~na.m pajahati, (3) one who develops the contemplation of not-self abandons the perception of self, (3) anattaanupassana.m bhaavento attasa~n~na.m pajahati, (4) one who develops the contemplation of dispassion abandons delighting, (4) nibbidaanupassana.m bhaavento nandi.m pajahati, (5) one who develops the contemplation of fading away abandons greed, (5) viraagaanupassana.m bhaavento raaga.m pajahati, (6) one who develops the contemplation of cessation abandons origination, (6) nirodhaanupassana.m bhaavento samudaya.m pajahati, (7) one who develops the contemplation of relinquishment abandons grasping, (7) pa.tinissaggaanupassana.m bhaavento aadaana.m pajahati, (8) one who develops the contemplation of destruction abandons the perception of compactness, (8) khayaanupassana.m bhaavento ghanasa~n~na.m pajahati, (9) one who develops the contemplation of fall [of formations] abandons accumulation [of kamma], (9) vayaanupassana.m bhaavento aayuuhana.m pajahati, (10) one who develops the contemplation of change abandons the perception of lastingness, (10) vipari.naamaanupassana.m bhaavento dhuvasa~n~na.m pajahati, (11) one who develops the contemplation of the signless abandons the sign, (11) animittaanupassana.m bhaavento nimitta.m pajahati, (12) one who develops the contemplation of the desireless abandons desire, (12) appa.nihitaanupassana.m bhaavento pa.nidhi.m pajahati, (13) one who develops the contemplation of voidness abandons misinterpreting (insistence), (13) su~n~nataanupassana.m bhaavento abhinivesa.m pajahati, (14) one who develops the insight into states that is higher understanding abandons misinterpreting (insistence) due to grasping at a core, (14) adhipa~n~naadhammavipassana.m bhaavento saaraadaanaabhinivesa.m pajahati, (15) one who develops correct knowledge and vision abandons misinterpreting (insistence) due to confusion, (15) yathaabhuuta~naa.nadassana.m bhaavento sammohaabhinivesa.m pajahati, (16) one who develops the contemplation of danger abandons misinterpreting (insistence) due to reliance, (16) aadiinavaanupassana.m bhaavento aalayaabhinivesa.m pajahati, (17) one who develops the contemplation of reflexion abandons non-reflexion, (17) pa.tisa"nkhaanupassana.m bhaavento appa.tisa"nkha.m pajahati, (18) one who develops the contemplation of turning away abandons misinterpreting (insistence) due to bondage. (18) viva.t.taanupassana.m bhaavento sa.myogaabhinivesa.m pajahati. with metta and respect, Han #123374 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:47 pm Subject: Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace kenhowardau Hi Dieter, ---------- <. . .> > D: ok , if you are interested that we both discuss Dhamma then MN 22 offers a splendid opportunity . Translation and comments by Ven. Nyanaponika (who-B.T.W. - had a good knowledge of Abhidhamma too) . Please see (and read) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.022.than.html ----------- KH: I was dismayed to find where that link led me. Although it contained another link to Nyanaponika's notes, the link itself was to Thanissaro's notes. They were his usual sickening diatribe against the Dhamma. They conveyed Thanissaro's odious doctrine that anatta is not the truth but is just a strategy – just a strategy that is to be cast aside once it has served its purpose. ------------------------------- > D: I can't imagine that we both manage common ground of mutual understanding by starting with abolute reality . -------------------------------- KH: Where else would anyone start? absolute unreality? :-) Dieter, I really would like to know: why did you choose that particular link as a starting point for future discussions with me. Me of all people! Ken H #123375 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace moellerdieter Hi Ken H, you wrote Dieter, I really would like to know: why did you choose that particular link as a starting point for future discussions with me. Me of all people! ;-) .. comments later with Metta Dieter #123376 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:39 pm Subject: The Story of Santati the Minister[ presented by Dr.Han Tun at JTN ] yawares1 Dear Sarah, You wrote: Anytime, any place ... if there is clear understanding of the cause of dukkha and the path, the insight into what is conditioned at this very moment, the way out of samsara can be found. yawares: I agree with you. Thank you for reading my story. yawares #123377 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:02 pm Subject: video clip for Sarah yawares1 Dear Sarah, You wrote: S: I also looked but failed to find the source of the story in English - only Chinese which makes me wonder if it's a Mahayana story. I wonder if Rob K or anyone else is familiar with it and knows if it's in the Pali texts. yawares: Lucky me, "watintaram" Thai Buddhist artists group produced Jataka 500 stories in videos!! I can watch them on every Uposatha day when I uphold 8 precepts(no TV, movies, music). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-r7wV3F77Y&feature=my_favorites&list=FLotJHgCNZB\ SMDegcF0cIPLA Thank you very much for reading my Jataka story. yawares #123378 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:58 pm Subject: Saliya Jataka [ Jataka Katha and YouTube ] yawares1 Dear Members, This story is also @youtube. I would like to thank YouTube and the Thai Buddhist artists groups with all my heart, for entertaining people and presenting Buddha's dhammas all in one. May Buddha bless them forever. *********** Saliya Jataka When Brahmadatta was reigning in Benares, the Bodhisatta was born in the family of a village householder, and when he was young he played with other boys at the foot of a banyan tree, at the entrance of the village. a poor old doctor at that time who had no practice strayed out of the village to this spot, and saw a snake asleep in the fork of a tree, with its head tucked in. He thought, "There is nothing to be got in the village I will cajole these boys and make the snake bite them, and then I shall get somewhat for curing them." So he said to the boy (Bodhisatta), "If you were to see a young hedgehog, would you seize it?" "Yes, I would," said he. See, here is one lying in the fork of this tree," said the old man. The Bodhisatta, not knowing it was a snake, climbed up the tree and seized it by the neck, but when he found it was a snake, he did not allow it to turn upon him, but getting a good grip of it, he hastily flung it from him. It fell on the neck of the old doctor, and coiling round him, it bit him so severely that its teeth met in his flesh and the old man fell down dead on the spot, and the snake made its escape. People gathered together about him, and the Great Being, in expounding the Law to the assembled multitude, repeated these verses: who got his friend to seize a deadly snake, as hedgehog, if you please, by the snake's bite was killed as one that evil to his neighbour willed. He that to strike is fain The man that never striketh back again, Is struck and lieth low, E'en as this knave sore hurt by deadly blow. So dust that should be thrown Against the wind, back in one's face is blown; And ill designed to one That holy is, and has no evil done, On the fool's pate at last Recoils, like dust when thrown against the blast. The Master here ended his lesson and identified the Birth : "At that time the poor old doctor was Devadatta, the wise youth was myself." ******************** Love Buddha's dhamma, yawares #123379 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:05 pm Subject: Re: Lukas - note from Phil sarahprocter... Hi Phil, > Hi Sarah (and Lukas) In my opinion suggesting to someone who is currently prone to coarse cittas that it would be better to have wholesome cittas is likely to be discouraging to tge person. ... S: I think the Buddha's emphasis which I share as best I can is that all kinds of cittas, all kinds of dhammas must be understood just as they are. Coarse or harsh cittas can be known as they are and gentle or wise citas can also be known just as they are. The Buddha taught the development of what is good, in particular the development of wise consideration and understanding. There's been no suggestion from me or anything I've quoted, such as the text by K.Sujin that Nina and I posted, that any person should try to have anything arise - just a pointing out of the truth, such as the benefit of metta and the harm of dosa. I know you always find such quotes discouraging - different accumulations, that's all, as Lukas and I discussed. Even such moments of discouragement or annoyance can be understood for what they are at such times - the truths always come back to the present cittas after all. We're all prone to "coarse" cittas - they're not yours, Lukas's or anyone else's - just conditioned dhammas. ... >Wholesome cittas arise instead of coarse cittas due to a compkex web of conditions. Belueving that we can give rise to wholesome cittas in a friend by telling him hiw helpful they are indicates a belief in control over cittas, in my opinion. .... S: Wholesome cittas can only ever arise by accumulations. Hearing more about the Buddha's teachings, about the value of kusala and the harm of akusala at this very moment may or may not be a condition for wise reflection and understanding. There's no suggestion that the Buddha or we can control or give rise to anyone's wholesome cittas or that there's any control involved at all. Just conditioned dhammas. Good to stress again and again. .... >Lyjas will get treatment or he won't, he will be prone to coarse cittas or he won't. I hope he does, and I hope there are more whokesome cittas for him, but nothing I or anyone here can say will decide rgat. I think the rwally liberating thing abour Dhamma is anattaness of wverything we itgerwise seek to control. ... S: Agreed! ... >Good luck Lukas, I hope dhammas perform functions in a way that leads you to helpful treatment. But if you continue to be prone to coarse cittas you are no better or worse, that's just a story told by disorted cittas > (vipalassas) tgat are fascinated by stories about people, including our > selves. .... S: Right - no Lukas, just different kinds of cittas to be understood for exactly what they are. I hope you'll continue writing/skyping Lukas. He needs many good friends at this time. .... >Please post this Sarah, but I have nithing furtger to add on it, so no reply please. ... S: Ha, ha - conditioned dhammas as you say..... Telling me not to reply is enough to condition a response:-)) Metta Sarah ===== #123380 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:29 pm Subject: Meat Eating Monks dhammasaro Good friends all, If I may... any comments? On monks eating meat from Chapter 8.4 of the Monastic Code in the Vinaya-pitaka: Fish: the flesh of any animal living in the water.5) Meat: the flesh of any animal living on land, except for that which is unallowable. Because the Commentary, in discussing unallowable meat, uses the word "meat" to cover all parts of an animal's body, the same convention would apply to allowable meat (and to fish) as well. Thus it covers the liver, kidneys, eggs, etc., of any animal whose flesh is allowable. The following types of meat are unallowable: that of human beings, elephants, horses, dogs, snakes, lions, tigers, leopards, bears, and hyenas. Human beings, horses, and elephants were regarded as too noble to be used as food. The other types of meat were forbidden either on grounds that they were repulsive ("People criticized and complained and spread it about, 'How can these Sakyan-son monks eat dog meat? Dogs are loathsome, disgusting'") or dangerous (bhikkhus, smelling of lion's flesh, went into the jungle; the lions there, instead of criticizing or complaining, attacked them). The Commentary adds three comments here: These prohibitions cover not only the meat of these animals but also their blood, bones, skin, and hide (the layer of tissue just under the skin — see AN IV.113). The prohibition against dog flesh does not include wild dogs, such as wolves and foxes, (but many teachers — including the Thai translator of the Commentary — question this point). The flesh of a half-dog half-wolf mixture, however, would be forbidden. The prohibition against snake flesh covers the flesh of all long, footless beings. Thus eels would not be allowed. Fish or meat, even if of an allowable kind, is unallowable if raw. Thus bhikkhus may not eat steak tartare, sashimi, oysters on the half-shell, raw eggs, caviar, etc. (Raw flesh and blood are allowed at Mv.VI.10.2 only when one is possessed by non-human beings (!)) Furthermore, even cooked fish or meat of an allowable kind is unallowable if the bhikkhu sees, hears, or suspects that the animal was killed specifically for the purpose of feeding bhikkhus (Mv.VI.31.14) ............................................. Source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/bmc1/bmc1.ch08-4.html peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck[Rest deleted by Chuck] #123381 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:41 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Money; was Thread: A few issues dhammasaro Good friend Connie, et al An excerpt: There are many other important rules covering how bhikkhus deal with wealth and money.[102] (It is also the tenth of the Ten Precepts for a novice (saama.nera) or dasasiila mata nun [see End Note 4].) These came to be set down because donations coming from a lay devotee's faith in Dhamma might, on mis-occasion, lead to the corrupting of the bhikkhu-life. Although these rules might seem relatively straightforward, there are various interpretations and ways of actual practice. And the practice often does not coincide with the theory. Yet it certainly remains a very important aspect of Vinaya, guarding against forgetfulness of the real way to happiness: "Bhikkhus, in abandoning the use of money, make real their abandonment of worldly pursuits and show others by example that the struggle for wealth is not the true way to find happiness." (BMC p.215) ................................................................................\ ................................................................................\ ................................................................................\ ........................................ The rule about a bhikkhu not accepting money came to be made when Ven. Upananda went to visit his regular supporters on alms round. The meat that had been set aside for him that morning had instead been given to the family's hungry son. The householder wished to give something else to make up for it and asked what he could offer to the value of a kahaapana coin. Ven. Upananda inquired if he was making a gift of a kahaapana coin to him, and then took the money away. Lay people were disgusted with this, saying, "Just as we lay people accept money, so too do these Buddhist monks!." This Rule has been variously translated: "Should any bhikkhu take gold and silver, or have it taken, or consent to its being deposited (near him), it is to be forfeited and confessed."(Nis. Paac. 18; BMC p.214) "Should any bhikkhu pick up, or cause to be picked up or consent to the deposit of gold or silver, this entails Confession with Forfeiture." (Nis. Paac. 18; Paat. 1966 Ed. p.42) "A monk, who accepts gold or money or gets another to accept for him, or acquiesces in its being put near him, commits [an offence requiring Confession with Forfeiture.]" (Nis. Paac. 18; BBC p.116) "If a bhikkhu himself receives gold and silver (money) or gets someone else to receive it, or if he is glad about money that is being kept for him, it is [an offence of Confession with Forfeiture.]"(Nis. Paac. 18; Nv p.11) Ί Note that there are some subtle differences in the way that the rule is translated, especially in the last example. According to the Commentary, there is 'no consent' if a bhikkhu refuses to accept the money: by word — telling the donor that it is not proper to receive money; by deed — gesturing to that effect; by thought — thinking that this is not proper. There may be a problem in communicating this to the donors without causing them offence and without the bhikkhu falling into offence himself.[103] Many of the rules concerning money, etc., are those of Confession with Forfeiture (Nissaggiya Paacittiya). This means that the money or articles that are wrongly acquired have to be forfeited. Furthermore, it is specified that they cannot be forfeited to a single monk but must be given up to the Community — who must then follow a strict procedure for disposing of those gains. In practice, this rule is understood by various bhikkhus in different ways. This ranges from some monks who seek to circumvent the rule completely by saying that "paper-money is just paper" and therefore not 'gold and silver' (jaataruupa-rajata) and so falls outside the rule; to the following more strict opinions: The Paali term jaataruupa is defined as 'gold of any sort' and, while rajata is also 'silver' in other contexts, here it is defined as maasaka (coins) of different materials (copper, wood, lac) whatever is used in business, i.e., money. "At present the term would include coins and paper currency, but not checks, credit cards, bank drafts, or promissory notes, as these — on their own and without further identification of the persons carrying them — do not function as true currency." (BMC p.215) "The term jaataruupa-rajata refers firstly to personal adornments (of gold and silver), secondly to ingots, thirdly to ruupiya, which are for buying and selling, referring not only to gold and silver but anything which can be used in this way. All the above-mentioned things are included in this term. The phrase, 'be glad at the money kept for him' [as in translation above] suggests that if it is only cittuppaada (the coming into existence of a thought), he would not [fall into an offence,] so it must refer to the action of receiving it and holding the right over it." (Paat. 1969 Ed. p.158) "For Laypeople: A lay-person should never offer money directly to a bhikkhu... even if it is placed inside an envelope or together with other requisites. They should either deposit the money with the monastery steward, put it in a donation-box or into the monastery bank account. They may then state their invitation to the bhikkhu(s) regarding the kind or amount of requisite(s). In Thailand, for example, knowledgeable lay-people would deposit money with the steward and offer to the bhikkhu(s) an invitation note mentioning the details of the offering." (HS ch.14) [While at the American Embassy in Bangkok, a Thai man gave such a note to my wife's nephew as he was acting as my steward.] ................................................................................\ ................................................................................\ ................................................................................\ ...... peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck [Rest deleted by Chuck] #123382 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:49 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Money; was Thread: A few issues dhammasaro Good friend Connie, et al More excerpts: Under modern conditions things other than cash also have to be considered. What about bhikkhus using checks or even postage stamps or 'phone cards'?[104] What is included in the rule and where does one draw the line? Different communities will understand these rules in slightly different ways — although probably all will find ordinary postage stamps acceptable! It seems that although credit cards and checks do not quite function in the same way as cash and therefore may not break that rule about accepting money (Nis. Paac. 18), they would still fall under another offence. (See below: Buying and Selling and Barter or Trade.) Some modern opinions: "At present the term ['gold and silver'] would include coins and paper currency, but not checks, credit cards, bank drafts, or promissory notes, as these — on their own and without further identification of the persons carrying them — do not function as true currency." (BMC p.215) "Checks, credit cards and travelers checks are not the same as money because [they are not] commonly negotiable, something that one can take into almost any shop and, without any further 'ink-work' or paperwork, exchange it for whatever one desires...[therefore] there is no offence for receiving or holding these things. However, using checks, credit cards and travelers checks or things similar would come under 'buying and selling' and the offences listed under [Confession with Forfeiture] 19 and 20 would be likely to arise." (AB) "The offence [Nis. Paac. 20] is committed when the bhikkhu hands the signed credit card receipt — or has it handed — to the seller..." (BMC p.230) ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;\ ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;\ ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; Chuck: It is common both in Thailand and USA for Thai monks have credit cards and bank accounts. peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck [Rest deleted by Chuck] #123383 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:47 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Money (3); was Thread: A few issues dhammasaro Good friend Connie, et al Yet more excerpts: While money is an important commodity in the world — greed and selfishness are the actual 'root of evil' — bhikkhus should not be concerned with it. Therefore this again offers an essential role for lay people. The bhikkhu stores no food but receives help from lay people who do; the bhikkhu stores no money but receives support from lay people who do. In fact this relationship is shown in this next allowance from the Buddha's time when bhikkhus were journeying along a difficult way. Food was difficult to find and He therefore allowed them to seek provisions. He also made another allowance, saying: "There are people of conviction and confidence, bhikkhus, who place gold and silver in the hand of stewards, saying, 'Give the master whatever is allowable.' I allow you, bhikkhus to accept whatever is allowable coming from that. But in no way at all do I say that money is to be accepted or sought for." (BMC p.198) "People who have good faith in bhikkhus may entrust money (lit., silver and gold) into the hand of a [steward] and order him to purchase allowable things for bhikkhus. Bhikkhus may be glad at the allowable things bought by the steward with that money. This is not regarded as being glad at that money. This is called the [Me.n.daka Allowance.] Bhikkhus should not request suitable things from the steward in excess of the money deposited with him." (EV,II,p.135) ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////\ /////////////////////////////////////////////////// peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck [Rest deleted by Chuck] #123384 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:57 am Subject: RE: Re Fear ( was[dsg] Re: Developing Faith, no 2. dhammasaro Good friend Lucas, Imho, the mind/heart is very strong... to date no toothache... fears can be over come... toothaches can be over come... trust, you will over come, as well... peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck [Rest deleted by Chuck] #123385 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:12 pm Subject: Buddhist Respect the Many Buddhist Flavors... dhammasaro Good friends all, Just now, on awakening from a nap; I just remembered all the loving-kindness I received from the many Buddhist lay and monk practitioners of the various Buddhist flavors... One, a Tibetan Lama, always encouraged me to remain a monk at Wat Thai Washington DC. Unfortunately, I had householder duties to my very ill mother in Texas. I never forget his kindness during our few meetings. ................................................................ From web site: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/ariyesako/layguide.html#fn-33 37. "This is especially true now that monasteries of different nationalities are taking root in close proximity to one another in the West. In the past, Thais, Burmese, and Sri Lankans could look down on one another's traditions without danger of causing friction, as they lived in separate countries and spoke different languages. Now, however, we have become neighbours and have begun to speak common languages, so it is best that we take to heart the writings of the Chinese pilgrims who visited India centuries ago. They reported that even after the early Buddhists had split into 18 schools, each with its own Tripitaka [Canon] and Paa.timokkha [Rule], and the Mahayanists had added their texts to the tradition, bhikkhus belonging to different schools could be found living together in the same monastery, practicing and conducting communal business in peace and harmony. Theirs is a worthy example. We should not let our minor differences become stumbling blocks on our way..." (BMC p.16) ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// This is what I observe in the USA... For example, when I was at Wat Thai Washington DC, we had visitors from other Theravada ethnic communities and from various Mahayana and Tibetan communities. We always welcomed them with loving kindness. In addition during my "Rains Retreat" at Wat Sangha Bucha, Pipe Creek, Bandera County, Texas we were visited by Vietnamese monks from the new second Vietnamese Mahayana Temple in San Antonio, Texas. We welcomed and showed them our modest Thai "Forest Style" meditation facility. Finally, within a few miles, there are Cambodian, Laotian, and Thai Theravadan Buddhist Temples in Philadelphia, PA USA. In addition, there are many Mahayana and Tibetan Buddhist Temples. peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck #123386 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:50 pm Subject: Disrobing dhammasaro Good friends all, I do not recall the mundane subject, "disrobing" being discussed... From web site: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/ariyesako/layguide.html#disrobing .................................................................. Living the bhikkhu-life properly, following the Buddha's Teaching, requires full commitment and sustained effort. If this is lost and his Dhamma friends cannot rekindle his interest, the bhikkhu is always at liberty to return to lay life. There are no lifetime vows, so perhaps living a good lay life is better than being lax in keeping the bhikkhu's rules. Nevertheless, in some countries there is a cultural expectation of 'ordaining for life' and a corresponding stigma attached to disrobing. "A bhikkhu who is tired of the practice of the Brahma-cariya [Holy Life] and wishes to return to the state of being a lay man may do this by taking leave of the training..." (EV,IIIp237) Disrobing is finalized by the monk clearly proclaiming his change of status before another bhikkhu or lay person. Once the other person understands his statement, he is no longer a bhikkhu. In Thailand there is often a formal ceremony for this that ends with the former monk undertaking the Five Precepts to replace the 227 Paa.timokkha Rule. (This is also considered a step downwards, for the ideal way is certainly to continue with the Holy Life 'for as long as life lasts.') In those countries [Thailand] where temporary ordinations are 'rites of passage,' some men may ordain and disrobe several times in their life β€" before marriage and after retirement, for example. However, there seems to be a tradition that bhikkhus do not disrobe and go forth again more than seven times, but this rarely occurs. If a bhikkhu commits a Defeater Offence there is no need for him formally to disrobe because he is automatically expelled by his wrongful action and is no longer a bhikkhu from that moment.[26b] He can never reordain during that lifetime. ........................................................ Discussion? peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck #123387 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:34 pm Subject: Re: Lukas - note from Phil sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > But of course I am not so good with samatha panna developement. .... S: It's not a matter of "I" being good at this or that, but just developing understanding now of whatever appears without any expectation. The future that we're so concerned about hasn't come yet, the past has gone completely. When we're worried and anxious about this and that now, the reality is the thinking, the worry, the seeing, the hearing - passing dhammas that can be known now. More precious than all the stories about being good/not being good with anything. At moments of understanding, at moments of any kusala, there is calm, there is samatha already without any trying or wishing to have it. Some comments from a tape: ***** KS: One can say one always thinks about that which hasn't come yet, like the prisoner or this here and there. What about that which is now appearing? Otherwise we miss the opportunity to develop understanding and we just wait and just sit [thinking about] that which hasn't come yet. **** S: She continues to talk about why we talk about realities, even though there's so little understanding. it is so that when time comes to understand about the realities right now, the truth, the arising and falling away of each conditioned reality, there can be the memory and understanding of what has been heard. "Life is so short and the best gift is right understanding." Metta Sarah ===== #123388 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:41 pm Subject: Re: attachment thinks sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lukas wrote: > Acharn says: 'What thinks? Attachment thinks? When one is thinking that I am thinking with attachment, but actually it is attachment which thinks'. > > The point is: Acharn states that it is attachment that thinks. But in what sense? I thought that vitaka thinks and attachement may be there also, but attachment does not perform the function of thinking. So isnt it like thinking with attachement that is more correct to say? .... S: I'd like to add to Nina's helpful comments. The point, as I understand, is that whenever there's the idea that "I" am thinking, my thinking, there's no detachment, no understanding of thinking as a conditioned dhamma. There is the idea of atta and this is with attachment. Sometimes it might seem that there is lots of thinking with domanassa, but in between, when it's all "my thinking", "my domanassa", "poor me", there are many, many mind door processes with attachment in between and it is this attachment which conditions all the dosa. Yes, thinking with attachment all day long - even whilst it seems we are feeling depressed! Metta Sarah ===== #123389 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 20-mrt-2012, om 18:36 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > > D: yes, different > magga and phala means entering and achieving > one of the 4 states of > nobilty , doesn't it?> > > ------- > N: Yes, and such a long way of development. > > > > D: due to below , a bit of correction : one talks about supra- > and > the other about super-mundane> > ------- > N: It is a same, supra or super. > ------- > > D: , that is a matter of consent, Nina. > As I see it , the main definition of Supra is 'transcendent ', i.e. > beyond the world , whereas Super stands for 'best of ', > 'hightened .' i.e. in this world... > ------- N: Yes, you are right. Super: a super fellow, this is super. A bit jovial, sometimes a rather cheap expression. So, let us use just supramundane. Lokuttara: loka, the world, uttara: higher, superior. We can just stick to the Pali. > > ------ > N: When we are more precise, we do not speak of path in a > figurative way. The path: cetasikas accompanying citta, and when > citta is > lokuttara all eight factors that are cetasikas are also lokuttara. > Thus, path is not a concept, it is citta and cetasikas. > ------- > > D: assumed Phala citta = lokuttara =experience of nibbana , in that > moment the path is left behind (like a ' raft') ,because the > designation (temporarily ) has been reached, isn't it? The path can > be understood as a concept/guide to Nibbana . > ------- > N: Here you speak about the Path in a figurative way. I find this more precise: when phalacitta arises, magga-citta has fallen away. --------- > > > > D : Are magga (moments) and phala (moments) of the -e.g. - > > sotaapanna 'Lokuttara citta experiences nibbaana' ? > > ----- > > > N: correct. > ------ > > D: commentary or canonical? My intuition says it is the former ;-) > ------- N: In a former post I quoted the Abhidhamma: Vibhanga and Dhammasangani: nava lokuttara dhammas. I repeat: N: Asa"nkhataa dhaatu denotes nibbaana. ------ When we read unincluded, this always refers to lokuttara dhamma, in fact all nine. Book of Analysis, CH 18, 1020, at end: > > > D: as : 'magga , phala and the unconditioned element , the former > > two are different from nibbana . > > So perhaps one may conclude these are not of our world ,i.e > realms/ > states higher than that , but not nibbana (? ) > -------- > N: Magga and phala are different from nibbaana. Nibbaana is the > object of maggacitta and phalacitta. > ------- > > D: what is different when Nibbana is experienced? > ------ N: Lokuttara cittas experience nibbaana. One exception: in the process during which enlightenment is attained, the gotrabhu (Change of lineage) that is mahaa-kusala citta is the first citta experiencinbg nibbaana, it is not lokuttara. > > > ----- > > N: Seeing experience visible object without thinking. That is > > correct. They are both paramattha dhammas. But also concepts can be > > known without thinking.----- > > > D: The preference of terms and its meaning is unfortunately a big > hindrance when trying to understand each other ( translation / > semantics of Pali incl.) > The/this being is no concept , it has been born and it will die , > though in abolute reality there is only this D.O. stream of > conditioned dhammas, marked by citta, cetasika and rupa. > We call the former conventional and the later absolute reality (of > experience ), don't we? > Hence for the citta of the former, the absolute is concept/idea, > whereas for the citta of the latter the conventional is the concept. > ------ N: Being, person, these are concepts. But what we call being are in the ultimate sense only citta, cetasika and ruupa that are impermanent and non-self. ------- > > D: I think 'some people' are the exception from the rule , > expressed by Ven. Nyanatiloka : > 'Before entering into the discussion of the contents of the seven > Abhidhamma books, I wish to point out that the study of the > Abhidhamma requires a previous thorough acquaintance with the > fundamental teachings and ethical aims of Buddhism; and it is only > to those who have fulfilled this preliminary condition that, by > thus recapitulating their learning and by philosophically deepening > their insight, the Abhidhamma may prove to be of real benefit.' > ------ N: We cannot understand the deep meaning of the suttas without the Abhidhamma. And, what should not be forgotten: the Abhidhamma deals with seeing, visible object, attachment, all realities of daily life. The Abhidhamma is not theory. First of all we should understand what Abhidhamma, higher teaching, or teaching in detail means. It is very, very daily. ----- Nina. #123390 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:37 pm Subject: Buddha's Saying [ Translated from the Pβli by Daw Mya Tin,M.A. ] yawares1 Dear Members, Today is uposatha day, please let me share 3 wonderful verses with you all. *********** Verse:173. He whose evil deeds are covered by good deeds, brightens up this world, like the moon when freed from clouds. Verse 174: Blind are the people of this world: only a few in this world see clearly (with Insight). Just as only a few birds escape from the net, so also, only a few get to the world of the devas, (and Nibbana). Verse 175: Swans travel in the sky; those with supernormal powers travel through space; the wise having conquered Mara together with his army, go out of this world (i.e., realize Nibbana). **************** Love Buddha's dhamma, yawares #123391 From: Norbert Jakaoemo Date: Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddha's Saying [ Translated from the Pβli by Daw Mya Tin,M.A. ] norbert_jaka... Yawares, Thank you for the beautifull verses! With metta Norbert Met vriendelijke groet, Norbert Jakaoemo Op 22 mrt. 2012 om 09:37 heeft "Yawares Sastri" het volgende geschreven: Dear Members, Today is uposatha day, please let me share 3 wonderful verses with you all. *********** Verse:173. He whose evil deeds are covered by good deeds, brightens up this world, like the moon when freed from clouds. Verse 174: Blind are the people of this world: only a few in this world see clearly (with Insight). Just as only a few birds escape from the net, so also, only a few get to the world of the devas, (and Nibbana). Verse 175: Swans travel in the sky; those with supernormal powers travel through space; the wise having conquered Mara together with his army, go out of this world (i.e., realize Nibbana). **************** Love Buddha's dhamma, yawares #123392 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:23 am Subject: To Norbert yawares1 Dear friend, Thanks for reading the 3 beautiful verses. yawares #123393 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:14 am Subject: learning about kusala discouraging? nilovg Dear Lukas and Phil, Some people believe that hearing about kusala may be discouraging for those who are at a certain time disinclined to kusala. But even such disinclination is a reality and it can be understood as conditioned, non-self. However, listening to the Dhamma again and again is indispensable to understand this. I quote from a Survey passage I came across today and I thought of you, Lukas: < Do we at times feel tired and bored, without energy? Sometimes the citta thinks of performing a particular kind of kusala, but then it is too weak, and fatigue and boredom arise. Can sati at such moments be aware of the characteristic of citta that is weak and without energy for kusala? If there is no awareness there is a concept of self who feels that way. Fatigue, weakness, boredom, a feeling of being downcast, in low spirits and without energy, all such moments are real. If sati is not aware of the characteristic of such realities as they naturally appear, it will not be known that they are not a living being, not a person, not a self. They are only characteristics of citta that arises because of conditions and then falls away again.> ------- N: This will help us not to use the disinclination to kusala as an excuse for negligence, thinking, O, this is conditioned. Certainly, it is conditioned but it can be faced with understanding. Moreover, the Buddha taught about all kinds of kusala to encourage us. If we know more about all the possibilities for kusala there are it can help us. ------ Nina. #123394 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:50 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Disrobing dhammasaro Good friends all, Excerpt: Nevertheless, in some countries there is a cultural expectation of 'ordaining for life' and a corresponding stigma attached to disrobing. ................................................................................\ ................................................................................\ ...................................................................... Unlike Thailand which encourages every male to be a monk, at least for a short time; I understand Burma and Sri Lanka expect the monk to be a monk for life!!! Is this true??? peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck [Rest deleted by Chuck] #123395 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:46 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Mispronunciation of the term Buddha in British and American Englsih dhammasaro Bhante, Sincere warm thanks for the correction. peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck [Rest deleted by Chuck] #123396 From: Eddie L Date: Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhist Respect the Many Buddhist Flavors... eddielou_us Hi Chuck, I would like to say something about your passage below: each with its own Tripitaka [Canon] and Paa.timokkha [Rule], and the Mahayanists had added their texts to the tradition... As far as I know, there is only one and only one original "Tripitaka" scriptures in the world. Where preserved I am not so sure, it could be in Sri Lanka, Myanmar or one of the countries, it could also be roving over the globe from one resting place to another. That original one, I also assume is when after our most recent Buddha - Gotama or Sakyamuni passed away over several years, then was put together with the help of his cousin (or brother?) Ananda, who literally was promised (by Buddha himself) and thus followed the Buddha like a shadow during the later live of Buddha. In other words, he literally knows a lot yet I heard he did not become Arahant until sometime later. That original Master Tripitaka is never changed except for some typo changes. No contextual or meaning changes allowed, so is preserved in its original meanings and context. NO multiple "different" copies, whatsoever, that is what I have learned and understood. So the others are just copies of that original one. I heard there is one whole set engraved into some stone tablets in Myanmar. So each with its own Tripitaka [Canon] may only mean they have their own copies of their original one and they should be "exactly" the same. Also Tripitaka (aka Triple Gems) scriptures includes everything (Abhidhamma, Viniya, Stories, etc) in one set. Kind of All-in-One. Hope it helps, with metta and respect. Feel free to correct me if wrong. Thanks. Eddie ________________________________ From: charlest To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 9:12 PM Subject: [dsg] Buddhist Respect the Many Buddhist Flavors... Good friends all, Just now, on awakening from a nap; I just remembered all the loving-kindness I received from the many Buddhist lay and monk practitioners of the various Buddhist flavors... .... Messages in this topic (1) Recent Activity: * New Members 1 * New Photos 24 Visit Your Group Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest β€’ Unsubscribe β€’ Terms of Use . #123397 From: Eddie L Date: Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Disrobing eddielou_us Hi Maipenrai Dhammasaro, In Burma or Myanmar, it is the same Theravada tradition, short term ordination is encouraged because it was said that the merits gathered from it can be a big boost towards one's own parents. So it is considered as one of the greatest ways to repay one's gratitude to one's own parents. With metta & respect, Eddie ________________________________ From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro To: DGG Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2012 6:50 AM Subject: RE: [dsg] Disrobing Β Good friends all, Excerpt: Nevertheless, in some countries there is a cultural expectation of ................................................................................\ ................................................................................\ ...................................................................... Unlike Thailand which encourages every male to be a monk, at least for a short time; I understand Burma and Sri Lanka expect the monk to be a monk for life!!! Is this true??? <...> #123398 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:24 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: [SariputtaDhamma] RE: Vinaya was intended for the monks. dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, et al On what you wrote (an excerpt): I have a deep respect for the monks but without putting them on a pedestal. In fact in the beginning there was no Vinaya when the Buddha founded the Sangha of Bhikkhus and Bhikkunis. The rules were only put in place by the Buddha when he found that the monks were not able to live the life in the sangha without petty arguments unless he set up the rules to prevent those disputes. Thus I am able to see them in the reality of their trying to grow in the Dhamma and not giving undue praise just because they are in robes. It is because people do not study the dhamma for themselves that I believe that the existence of living arahats are in present day life very rare and perhaps it is why many people have fallen into the practice of only rites and rituals and into superstitious practices of fortune telling, etc which were prohibited by the Buddha. (End of excerpt) I agree on the above from personal experiences... Comments? peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck [Rest deleted by Chuck] #123399 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:37 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Off-topic: Thanks to budaedu.org dhammasaro Good friend Connie, Did you receive? If not, please advise... I think I have an extra copy... peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck [Rest deleted by Chuck]