#125600 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:19 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. szmicio Dear Rob K, Sukin, > Any chance of either you or Sukin joining the trip to Poland, Rob? L: Robert, Sukin pls come. That would be so great to meet. Best wishes Lukas #125601 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:30 pm Subject: Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 4, 11. sarahprocter... Dear Nina & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > The monk who has left his home for the "homeless life" has many > opportunities to cultivate impartiality. Laypeople who are bound by > their family life are apt to have preference for their own relatives. > The monk is not bound by such ties and he has the opportunity to > devote himself entirely to the task of helping without any partiality > all people who are ready to listen to the Dhamma. The monk should not > expect any reward for his teaching of Dhamma. Since he is not allowed > to ask for anything he truly leads a life of contentment with little. ... S: True. I'd say we all have many opportunities to cultivate impartiality, no matter the circumstances. Likewise, a monk may also have many preferences too. Of course, what you are referring to are the good reminders about the meaning of the homeless life and the value of the bhikkhu's life properly led. We may think that because of our preferences for relatives and so on, we cannot help others without partiality, but the kilesas of ignorance and attachment arise, conditioned no matter the circumstances, while not eradicated. I remember Ann asking K.Sujin a question about helping her son with Dhamma -- we all ask such questions about helping dear ones -- and her response was to the effect of help those around who are interested to hear and understand the dhamma. Again, "contentment with little" refers to the citta. A monk may be very discontent, even though he has very little materially, whereas a lay person may be very content, no matter the circumstances. Otherwise we end up thinking of a situation again. Helpful to be reminded of the bhikkhu's life, like that of an arahat. Like "heaven and earth" as K.Sujin would say. As always, it all comes back to the citta now... Hope you had a good celebration and walking holiday, Nina. Metta Sarah ===== #125602 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:39 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Thanks for helping me to reflect on this topic. > >R: Thank you for some very precise indications of how "space" is used to indicate, not actual spatial locations, but the types of rupic arenas in which certain types of dhammas arise, eg, heart-base, and the ways in which different constituent rupas of a kalapa come together due to conditions, creating a sense of a spatial organization, but not actual objective physical space as we normally think of it. > > As I take your meaning, the extensiveness of space in which there is distance and other relations is missing from the spatiality of kalapas. The space that they contain is only the relationship between the various rupas to each other, and their relationship to the base in which they arise. In other words, there is no objective space in which this takes place, and there is no place to go from there. The space that is created by these relations is confined to the relations themselves. It is 100% local. I hope that is not too far off the mark. .... S: There are just the arising of various rupas in kalapas, separated by other kalapas by space, pariccheda akasa (space) rupa which depends on these kalapas for its arising. Any 'base' such as heart-base, is simply another rupa arising in another kalapa, again separated by akasa rupa from the next kalapa which is separated in this way. We cannot say that in actuality rupas arise in a base or another set of rupas. As you suggest, this kind of space is conditioned/dependent on these various kalapas of rupas. There is also the open space where there are no kalapas of rupas, but let's no go there now:-) Metta Sarah ==== #125603 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Khandhas - audio extract KK 2011 upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - With respect, this use of 'khandha' is a misuse of language. With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/20/2012 11:42:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Dear Friends, I was just discussing khandhas with Howard when I heard the following as I ate my lunch: ***** Phil: We were talking yesterday about rupas and I was wondering: are rupas the same here in this beautiful place in the lovely countryside and in a part of the busy city? KS: Doesn't rupa arise and fall away too - each split second? So each one is not the same one at all. Never the same, no matter here or there - just that which has impinged on the eye-sense has arisen and fallen away. P: They're always different, everywhere. KS: Yes, never comes back - each one and that's the meaning of khandha. Khandha passes away, never comes back P: And the khandhas always arise together...? KS: Each one is one khandha. P: OK, khandha doesn't mean like a group of... KS: They arise together, but each one of them is a khandha, not the same one. ***** Metta #125604 From: "Alberto" Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:51 pm Subject: Re: notes from Alberto sprlrt Hi Sarah and Lukas, S: > are you saying that a) refers to vipaka cittas only ? b) refers to all dhammas which condition/cause vipaka dhammas, i.e. kamma, cetana cetasika only? c) refers to all other dhammas inc. nibbana? Right, literally " dhammas which are not vipaka and not cause of vipaka". a: vipaka dhammas, vipaka citta and cetasikas. b: kusala and akusala citta and cetasikas are the cause of vipaka dhammas as kamma paccaya (cetana cetasika only) and as pakatupanissaya paccaya (cetana cetasika again, as well as the others, like lobha, alobha, dosa, adosa, avijja, panna etc.) Kusala dhammas and akusala dhammas too arise by conditions, they are the result of paccayas such as pakatupanissaya (but not kamma). c: kiriya dhammas (i.e. kiriya citta and cetasikas, inc. those of the arahant replacing kusala dhammas, which, unlike kusala dhammas, are not cause for vipaka), all rupas, and nibbana. The Dhammasangani describes this in these terms in the Nikkehepa and Atthakatha sections. The Patthana states that vipaka dhammas are conditioned by pakatupanissaya paccaya as well as by kamma condition. Alberto #125605 From: Lukas Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:33 pm Subject: To Alberto. Dhamma trip to Poland szmicio Dear Alberto, Do u think u could translate the the few frist pages of Patthana from pali? I mean only Paccayuddeso where all 24 kinds conditions are listed, and Paccayaniddeso, where there 24 conditions are exposed in briefly. I found this very deep when I read it in England, having english translation from library. It would be great if we could both read it to Acharn, and ask a questions. The exposition in brief of arammana paccaya is so deep. I found that this Paccayanidesso with description in short of all conditions is so good reminder to read in daily life. Sometimes it is good to have short good reminder, than reading a lot on conditions. It would be a great gift for me also, since I cant read pali and I dont have Patthana in english. In Paccayaniddeso the second kind of conditions arammana paccaya starts. == Arammanapaccayoti: rupaayatana.m cakkhuvi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa ta.msampayuttakaana~nca dhammaana.m aaramma.napaccayena paccayo. I think this may means: visible object base(as ayatana) condtions seeing-consciousness and its accompanying dhammas by way of object condition. === So the visible object base is a condition for seeing-consciousness to arise and all 7 cetasikas arising with seeing consciousness by way of object condition. Without visible object seeing could never arise. I think this is great reminder for all of us. We think 'I see', 'my seeing', 'me in seeing'. But this is only a seeing consciousness that arise and perform its function. There is no self anywhere that could make seeing arise. like open ones eyes to see. This is all conditioned. Without the second condition, object condition there would be no seeing. Do we remember that? Without visible object that is ruupa, seeing could never arise. Seeing is conditioned by visible object. Visible object condition seeing right now. No Self anywhere, going to shop, typying on the keybord, walking the park. Just seeing and visible object and the second condition - object condition. I think ruupaayatana is mentioned here, not ruupadhatu to express the meaning of that only visible object conditions the seeing consciousness, and not the eye-sense by way of arammana-paccaya. The color conditions seeing consciousness by way of object condition right now. Just my thoughts. Best wishes Lukas #125606 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Khandhas - audio extract KK 2011 truth_aerator Hello Howard, Sarah, all, >H:With respect, this use of 'khandha' is a misuse of language. You are right. Khandha = group. Khandha is universal, while individual (rupa for example) is a particular, right? With best wishes, Alex #125607 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Wasteland moellerdieter Dear Sarah , you wrote: Still trying to persuade others like Vince & Dieter who are already in Europe to come.... Dieter, we have another old Dhamma friend, Gabi, coming from Germany too..... Americans, it's quicker and easier for you to come from the States than for us from Asia.... A real great opportunity if you can join D: thank you for the kind invitation , Sarah. As much as I would like to meet you and friends in Poland but I am afraid personal reasons will hinder me to do so . However I am looking forward to learn about your Dhamma discussions lateron and of course about your impressions during the -certainly wonderful - trip. B.T.W. I can't remember to have read anything ever from Gabi, is she a dsg member? with Metta Dieter #125608 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:14 am Subject: Self-Correction Re: [dsg] Khandhas - audio extract KK 2011 upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Sarah & all) - In a message dated 7/21/2012 10:07:08 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hello Howard, Sarah, all, >H:With respect, this use of 'khandha' is a misuse of language. You are right. Khandha = group. Khandha is universal, while individual (rupa for example) is a particular, right? --------------------------------------------------------- HCW: Yes, that is the main reading, namely that of mass/bulk/category/group/collection. However, I have seen a secondary meaning given in the PTS dictionary (that I looked up an hour or so ago) that also applies 'khandha' to the *members* of a group. So, that usage is acceptable as well, and I stand corrected on this. (It would not be normal English usage, but we are dealing with meanings of a Pali word, not an English one.) ---------------------------------------------------------- With best wishes, Alex ================================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #125609 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] grow disenchanted with stress moellerdieter Dear KC, (all) you wrote: I give you some write up in Abhidhamam to describe the meaning of suffering. It also explains why noble one experience bodily pain Dukkha from Dispeller of Delusion para 446 446. Herein this is the list {maatikaa) for the purpose of expounding the Noble truth of suffering; for this suffering is manifold and of various kinds, that is to say ; the suffering as suffering, the suffering in change, the suffering in formations, concealed suffering, exposed suffering, figurative suffering (pariyaaya), literal suffering. 447. Herein bodily and mental painful feeling are called "suffering as suffering" because of their individual essence, because of their name and because of painfulness. [Bodily and mental] pleasant feeling are called "suffering in change" because of being the cause of the arising of pain through their change. Indifferent feeling and the remaining formations of the three planes are called “suffering in formations” because of being oppressed by rise and fall. But there is likewise oppression even in the paths and fruition, therefore these states should be understood to be called “suffering of the formations”, by their being included in the Truth of Suffering. 448. Such bodily and mental afflictions as earache, toothache, fever born of lust, fever born of hate, etc are called “concealed suffering” because they can only be known by questioning, and because the attack is not openly evident: they are also called “unevident suffering”. Afflictions produced by the 32 tortures and so on is called “exposed suffering”. Except for suffering as suffering, the rest come down in the Dukkhasaccavibha.nga (Vbh 99). Also all beginning birth are called “figurative suffering” because they are the basis of one or another kind of suffering, but it is “suffering as suffering” that is called “literal suffering” <> SN 36.6 Sallatha Sutta D: thanks for the quotations, KC , offering food for thoughts. For example what is the difference between the toothache of a commoner and a noble one, besides that the latter endures the pain without "sorrow, grieve or lament; he does not weep weeping his breast and become distraught" (the so called second dart) ?. Mental and bodily pain are stated within the first N.T. , all of these expected to end (third N.T.) .. but then it seems to be only part of it KC: I felt this is a good sutta extracts that explain the intensity of suffering <<"What is grief? It is the grief, sorrow, sorrowfulness, the state of being sorry, inward sorrow, inward intense sorrow visited by some calamity or other, smitten by some kind of ill or other. This is called grief. "What is lamentation? It is the crying, the wailing, the act of crying, the act of wailing, the state of crying, the state of wailing of one visited by some calamity or other, smitten by some kind of ill or other. This is called lamentation. "What is suffering? It is bodily suffering, bodily unpleasantness, the painful and unpleasant feeling produced by bodily contact. This is called suffering. "What is misery? It is mental suffering, unpleasantness, the painful and unpleasant feeling produced by mental contact. This is called misery. "What is despair? It is despondency, despair, the state of despondency, the state of despair of one visited by some calamity or other. This is called despair. >> Majjhima Nikaya 141 Saccavibhanga Sutta D: yes , good extract the issue of suffering , its contemplation and understanding what has been said about it , is - as you may know - a condition for faith in the Dhamma, not by chance mentioned in the place. As you pointed out there is broad scale of intensity , a feeling from simple boredom to agony . However the topic concerns whether there is any need to grow disentchanted with that unpleasantness, as expressed by 'atha nibbindati dukkhe' Dhammapada .. with Metta Dieter #125610 From: Ken O Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:09 am Subject: Satipatthana 1 - What is the it? ashkenn2k Dear all Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary pg 272 30. An establishing (patthana) is that 'sets out' (patitthati). The meaning is that it occurs with the body, etc, as its object, having made its entrance by virtue of taking (these) as ugly, etc. A mindfulness establishing is an establishing that is itself mindfulness. But that establishing is an establishing that is itself mindfulness. But that establishing is said to be fourfold by virtue taking the body, feeling, consciousness, and dhamma as [respectively] ugly, painful, impermanent, and not self, and by virtue of abandoning the distorted perception [of them] as beautiful, pleasant, permanent and self. Hence there are four establishing of mindfulness 1011. Satipatthãna (‘foundations of mindfulness”): there are three kinds of foundation of mindfulness, (1) the domain of mindfulness (satigocaro), (2) the Master’s threefold surpassing of resentment and gratification as regards the entry of the disciples [on the way of practice] (tidhaa pa.tipannesu saavakesu Satthuno pa.tighaanunayaviitivattataa), and (3) mindfulness (sati). 1012. (1) In the passage beginning: ‘1 shall teach, bhikkhus, the arising and the disappearance of the four foundations of mindfulness listen ... And what, bhikkhus, is the arising of the body? With the arising of nutriment there is the arising of the body’ (S v 184), it is the “domain of mindfulness” that is called mindfulness. Likewise in such passages as: “The body is the establishment (upa.t.thaana), it is not mindfulness. Mindfulness is both establishment and mindfulness.” (Ps i 177, ii 232), the meaning of that is: “that on which it is founded” (pati.t.thaati) is “foundation” (pa.t.thaana). What is founded? Mindfulness. [Thus] it is “mindfulness’s foundation” (satiyaa [gen.] pa.t.thaana.m) which is the “foundation of mindfulness” (sati- pa.t.thaana). 1013. Or foundation (pa.t.thaana) means place for [exercising] effort (padhna.t.thaana); [in this sense] it is the “place” (pa.t.thaana) for mindfulness (satiyaa; gen. or dat.) that is the “foundation of mindfulness” (satipa.t.thaana), like the “place for elephants (hatthi.t.thaana), “place for horses” (assa.t.thaana). 1014. (2) As regards the passage: “There are three foundations of mindfulness which the Noble One cultivates, and cultivating which the Noble One is a master who is worthy to instruct his flock” (M iii 216, 221), here it is the “threefold surpassing by the Master of resentment and gratification as regards the entry of the disciples [on the way]” that is called the “foundation of mindfulness”. The meaning of that is: “foundation” (pa.t.thaana) is because of what should be founded (pa.t.thapetabba); “because of what should be made to occur” is the meaning. Because of what should be made to occur by means of what? By means of mindfulness. So “foundation of mindfulness” (sati pa.t.thaana) is the “foundation by means of mindfulness” (satiyd [instr.] pa.t.thaana.m). 1015. (3) But in such passages as: “The four foundations of mindfulness being developed and frequently practised perfect the seven enlightenment factors” (S v 329), it is mindfulness itself that is called the “foundation of mindfulness”. The meaning of that is: “what founds” (pati.t.thaati) is “foundation” (pa.t.thaana); it is established (upa.t.thaati); “having gone down into, entered into, it proceeds” is the meaning. [Thus] mindfulness itself in the sense of foundation (pa.t.thaana.t.thena) is “foundation of mindfulness” (sati pa.t.thaana). 1016. Or alternatively, “mindfulness” is in the sense of remembrance (sara.na.t.thena), foundation (pa.t.thaana) is in the sense of establishing (upa.t.thaana). 12151 Thus “it is mindfulness and that is the foundation” (sati ca saa pa.t.thaanañ ca) is “foundation of mindfulness” (sati pa.t.thaana). This [third kind] is meant here. Cheers KC #125611 From: Ken O Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:13 am Subject: Satipatthana 1 - What is it? ashkenn2k Dear all resend to put the source for the second text Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary pg 272 30. An establishing (patthana) is that 'sets out' (patitthati). The meaning is that it occurs with the body, etc, as its object, having made its entrance by virtue of taking (these) as ugly, etc. A mindfulness establishing is an establishing that is itself mindfulness. But that establishing is an establishing that is itself mindfulness. But that establishing is said to be fourfold by virtue taking the body, feeling, consciousness, and dhamma as [respectively] ugly, painful, impermanent, and not self, and by virtue of abandoning the distorted perception [of them] as beautiful, pleasant, permanent and self. Hence there are four establishing of mindfulness Dispeller of Delusion pg 270 1011. Satipatthãna (‘foundations of mindfulness”): there are three kinds of foundation of mindfulness, (1) the domain of mindfulness (satigocaro), (2) the Master’s threefold surpassing of resentment and gratification as regards the entry of the disciples [on the way of practice] (tidhaa pa.tipannesu saavakesu Satthuno pa.tighaanunayaviitivattataa), and (3) mindfulness (sati). 1012. (1) In the passage beginning: ‘1 shall teach, bhikkhus, the arising and the disappearance of the four foundations of mindfulness listen ... And what, bhikkhus, is the arising of the body? With the arising of nutriment there is the arising of the body’ (S v 184), it is the “domain of mindfulness” that is called mindfulness. Likewise in such passages as: “The body is the establishment (upa.t.thaana), it is not mindfulness. Mindfulness is both establishment and mindfulness.” (Ps i 177, ii 232), the meaning of that is: “that on which it is founded” (pati.t.thaati) is “foundation” (pa.t.thaana). What is founded? Mindfulness. [Thus] it is “mindfulness’s foundation” (satiyaa [gen.] pa.t.thaana.m) which is the “foundation of mindfulness” (sati- pa.t.thaana). 1013. Or foundation (pa.t.thaana) means place for [exercising] effort (padhna.t.thaana); [in this sense] it is the “place” (pa.t.thaana) for mindfulness (satiyaa; gen. or dat.) that is the “foundation of mindfulness” (satipa.t.thaana), like the “place for elephants (hatthi.t.thaana), “place for horses” (assa.t.thaana). 1014. (2) As regards the passage: “There are three foundations of mindfulness which the Noble One cultivates, and cultivating which the Noble One is a master who is worthy to instruct his flock” (M iii 216, 221), here it is the “threefold surpassing by the Master of resentment and gratification as regards the entry of the disciples [on the way]” that is called the “foundation of mindfulness”. The meaning of that is: “foundation” (pa.t.thaana) is because of what should be founded (pa.t.thapetabba); “because of what should be made to occur” is the meaning. Because of what should be made to occur by means of what? By means of mindfulness. So “foundation of mindfulness” (sati pa.t.thaana) is the “foundation by means of mindfulness” (satiyd [instr.] pa.t.thaana.m). 1015. (3) But in such passages as: “The four foundations of mindfulness being developed and frequently practised perfect the seven enlightenment factors” (S v 329), it is mindfulness itself that is called the “foundation of mindfulness”. The meaning of that is: “what founds” (pati.t.thaati) is “foundation” (pa.t.thaana); it is established (upa.t.thaati); “having gone down into, entered into, it proceeds” is the meaning. [Thus] mindfulness itself in the sense of foundation (pa.t.thaana.t.thena) is “foundation of mindfulness” (sati pa.t.thaana). 1016. Or alternatively, “mindfulness” is in the sense of remembrance (sara.na.t.thena), foundation (pa.t.thaana) is in the sense of establishing (upa.t.thaana). 12151 Thus “it is mindfulness and that is the foundation” (sati ca saa pa.t.thaanañ ca) is “foundation of mindfulness” (sati pa.t.thaana). This [third kind] is meant here. Cheers KC #125612 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Wasteland sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, >________________________________ > From: Dieter Moeller >D: thank you for the kind invitation , Sarah. >As much as I would like to meet you and friends in Poland but I am afraid personal reasons will hinder me to do so . >However I am looking forward to learn about your Dhamma discussions lateron and of course about your impressions during the -certainly wonderful - trip. >B.T.W. I can't remember to have read anything ever from Gabi, is she a dsg member? ... S: Gabi is an old Dhamma friend who used to live in Thailand. We knew her three. Unfortunately she doesn't have internet or email access, so we never hear from her on DSG. Nina keeps contact and has called her to pass on all the details for the trip. She'll be travelling by train from Germany, meeting us in Warsaw on 9th and travelling to the resort together. If personal reasons allow, do come for part or all of the stay, Dieter! We'd love to have you and you'll feel at home with all the Thai friends around. A lovely spot by the lakes too. Metta Sarah ====== #125613 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Wasteland epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Rob E, Pt & all, > >________________________________ > > From: Robert E > > > >Is it really true that no one has posted [other than me] for the last 30 hours or so? Help, where is everyone? > ..... > > S: OK, Ok, Ok...... we're on our way to the rescue! Nina will be back soon, I'm sure. Oh, thank you, I thought maybe that physical reality was starting to implode and that dhammas would stop arising. I guess I'm not ready to let the manifest universe go... > News: The Dhamma discussions in Poland are now 9th - 17th Sept. Hoping it's fixed now as we'll be buying our non-refundable tickets this weekend. Poor Alberto is having to change his..... Gee, I wish I could join you - would be a great opportunity as you say. My schedule won't allow it again this time, so I will have to aim for a future occasion in Thailand, when the vipaka is lined up correctly. Unless I can get my cousin to reschedule his wedding... Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - #125614 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:17 pm Subject: What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Rob E > > (125507) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > Pt. 3. > > ... > > RE: So mental factors "make or break" the action, but still don't substitute for it. If you have lovely mental factors but watch someone being murdered without helping them, that is not kusala, even if the mental factors are great. > > =============== > > J: There can be kusala mental factors arising in the midst of an action that we would regard as an akusala one, and there can be akusala mental factors arising in the course of a `kusala' action. That's why it serves no purpose to try and classify an action by its outward appearance. You bring up a general assertion in response to a specific example. I wonder what your response would be to the example I mentioned. Can kusala arise in the midst of murder? Can there be a kusala mental state while murder is taking place? Is it possible for a kusala mental factor to lead one to akusala kamma vipaka? I think the answer in all cases is no. Of course kusala can arise in the midst of negative circumstances, but if I am in the midst of stabbing someone or cutting the head off of a live chicken, I am asserting that during such activities kusala is not present. Do you disagree? > In the case of the blind monk, it seemed to those observing that he was deliberately treading on insects; but in fact that was not the case. > > It is impossible to know another's mental factors (and difficult enough to know one's own!). Sure, one shouldn't assume another's mental factors, but I am talking about a very specific question - whether kusala can arise during the very violent and callous activities that Buddha prescribed. The Buddha said that one may not eat meat that is killed specifically for a monk's meal. That is not a question of kusala mental factors, but of a defiled activity. Killing is likewise proscribed under any circumstances, regardless of mental state. Would you disagree? > > =============== > > > J: 'Right action' is not a matter of the 'right' outward conduct/action. > > > > RE: In fact it partially is - murder can never be kusala, no matter what. It is a 'wrong action' no matter what the mental factors accompanying it. > > =============== > > J: I'm not sure I follow. `Murder' is defined in terms of the intention to take the other person's life, and if that intention is not present at the appropriate time then it's not murder. The act of purposely taking another's life is always wrong according to the Buddha. So, a certain person may be very nice and happy and kill chickens for a living, but the Buddha would not consider that kusala. At best it is the result of ignorance, which is akusala. Do you disagree? > > =============== > > RE: In fact, both the Buddha and the commentaries speak of the three levels of kamma patha - mental, speech and physical. I think we ignore such itemization at our peril, and I take seriously the idea that all three levels have to line up or you don't have true kusala. If mental factors do not translate into right speech and right action, the kusala is poisoned, and you get akusala kamma patha. > > =============== > > J: Right speech and action are the kusala restraint from wrong speech and action. If the restraint is without kusala, then there's no right speech or action. In the listings of akusala kamma patha, there are definite actions that are named in the lists of speech and action. In addition, while kusala kamma patha is caused by restraint, positive expressions are also implied, eg, 'telling the truth,' not just restraint from lying. > > =============== > > RE: As I'm sure you would agree, the arahant not only has perfected mental factors, but also demonstrates perfectly expressed kusala speech and action. It's not one without the other, though there are those here who choose to emphasize kusala mental factors to the exclusion of all else. I just don't think that is justified by anything I've seen in the actual texts. Do you have a text - and this is not meant rhetorically - that demonstrates directly that I am wrong about this? I would be very anxious to see it. > > =============== > > J: The best I can do for a text at the moment are the following entries from Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary (which, with a few notable exceptions, accurately reflects the traditional Theravadan interpretation of the texts): > > 1. Entry for "kusala" > > ********************************* > 'karmically wholesome' or 'profitable', salutary, morally good, (skillful) ... > > It is defined in M.9 as the 10 wholesome courses of action (s. kammapatha). > > In psychological terms, 'karmically wholesome' are all those karmical volitions (kamma-cetanaa) and the consciousness and mental factors associated therewith, which are accompanied by 2 or 3 wholesome roots (muula), i.e. by greedlessness (alobha) and hatelessness (adosa), and in some cases also by non-delusion (amoha: wisdom, understanding). > > Such states of consciousness are regarded as 'karmically wholesome' as they are causes of favourable karma results and contain the seeds of a happy destiny or rebirth. > > From this explanation, two facts should be noted: > > (1) it is volition that makes a state of consciousness, or an act, 'good' or 'bad'; > > (2) the moral criterion in Buddhism is the presence or absence of the 3 wholesome or moral roots. > ********************************* > > Note particularly that "it is volition that makes a state of consciousness, or an act, 'good' or 'bad'", and "the moral criterion in Buddhism is the presence or absence of the 3 wholesome or moral roots". > > > 2. Entry for "muula" > > ********************************* > 'roots', also called hetu, are those conditions which through their presence determine the actual moral quality of a volitional state (cetanaa), and the consciousness and mental factors associated therewith, in other words, the quality of karma. > > There are 6 such roots, 3 karmically wholesome and 3 unwholesome roots, viz.,: greed, hate, delusion (lobha, dosa, moha), and greedlessness, hatelessness, undeludedness (alobha, adosa, amoha). > ********************************* > > The entry for `muula' also contains a sutta passage that is relevant: > > "Killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse, lying, tale-bearing, harsh language, frivolous talk, covetousness, ill-will and wrong views (s. kammapatha), these things are due either to greed, or hate, or delusion" (A.X.174). > > So deeds are unwholesome by virtue of being accompanied by (and to the extent that they are accompanied by) one or more of the akusala roots. Well I still think you are leaving out the connection which is stated directly here between those akusala mental states and their *expression* in conventional actions. When the text states that Killing, Steading, etc. are *due to* greed, hate or delusion, it is making the very connection I am talking about. When akusala mental stastes arise they will be expressed as akusala actions, and when such actions are present, one can presume the presence of akusala mental states. They are indeed associated, and arise together, just as your quote states above. Again, when known unwholesome actions are present, one can know that they have been caused by unwholesome mental states. This explains Rob K.'s statement that "if there is more kusala, there will be less murder." Kusala and akusala mental states are expressed in conventional actions that accord with those mental states. There is no such thing as a murder that is accompanied by kusala mental states. It is impossible, as murder is the outcome, as your quote above shows, of akusala mental states themselves. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #125615 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Wasteland sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, >________________________________ > From: Robert E >> S: OK, Ok, Ok...... we're on our way to the rescue! Nina will be back soon, I'm sure. > >R: Oh, thank you, I thought maybe that physical reality was starting to implode and that dhammas would stop arising. I guess I'm not ready to let the manifest universe go... ... :-)) ... >Gee, I wish I could join you - would be a great opportunity as you say. My schedule won't allow it again this time, so I will have to aim for a future occasion in Thailand, when the vipaka is lined up correctly. Unless I can get my cousin to reschedule his wedding... ... S: Or redirect his wedding to Poland? Seriously, what date is the wedding? Perhaps you could come for part of the trip - your own quick escape and Dhamma honeymoon? It would be wonderful to meet you and any other old friends at such an occasion. Regadless, kusala akusala vipaka all the time, even as we write.....seeing, hearing and so on....all realities to be known now. Metta Sarah ====== #125616 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:07 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 5, no 4 nilovg Dear friends, We read in the Discourse on Fear and Dread (Middle Length Sayings I, no. 4) how he spent the three watches of the night during which he attained enlightenment. He first attained the four rpa-jhnas. We then read: Thus with the mind composed, quite purified, quite clarified, without blemish, without defilement, grown soft and workable, fixed, immovable, I directed my mind to the knowledge and recollection of former habitations: I remembered a variety of former habitations, thus: one birth, two births... a hundred thousand births, and many an aeon of integration and many an aeon of disintegration and many an aeon of integration-disintegration; such a one was I by name, having such and such a clan, such and such a colour, so was I nourished, such and such pleasant and painful experiences were mine, so did the span of life end. Passing from this, I came to be in another state where such and such a one was I by name...Passing from this I arose here. Thus I remember divers former habitations in all their modes and detail. This, brahman, was the first knowledge attained by me in the first watch of the night; ignorance was dispelled, knowledge arose, darkness was dispelled, light arose, even as I abided diligent, ardent, self-resolute.... From this quotation we see how the Bodhisatta remembered previous lives, even as long as a hundred thousand births ago. He remembered these lives in all their details. When one reads the Jtakas, the birth-stories of the Bodhisatta, one might consider them as only legends. We should note that, just as the other parts of the Tipiaka, also the Jtakas deal with realities. They relate us how the Bodhisatta accumulated all the virtues necessary for Buddhahood. These virtues are real, not fictitious. He had accumulated all the perfections ever since he had made the resolve to become a future Buddha. In this very night he remembered his previous lives there would be the fulfilment of his resolve for the sake of which he had endured so much, out of compassion for all beings. ****** Nina. #125617 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:10 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 jonoabb Hi Rob E (125536) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: But `kusala' is a (purely) mental quality; not a characteristic of a conventional activity. Conventional activities cannot have directly experiencable characteristics. > > RE: Perhaps, so, but you do not address my point - at least here, that an unwholesome activity *cannot* be undertaken by someone while in a kusala mental state. The kusala may not come from the action, but the action does come from the kusala, from the mental state. The action is not just beside the point, but is the expression of the kusala or akusala. A wholesome-seeming action can be ruined by an akusala mental state, but an unwholesome action cannot be corrected by a kusala mental state, I would say, in most cases. > =============== J: You are taking as your starting point a conventional action that you characterise as either a kusala or an akusala one. But the teaching given by the Buddha does not concern itself with the conventional nature of actions. It talks about kusala kamma patha and akusala kamma patha. Kamma (literally, `action') is declared to be the momentary mental factor of cetana (intention). The commission of kamma patha does not have any particular conventional counterpart. For example, while a murder may be committed by an act of stabbing, it may also be committed by giving a coded instruction over the phone. So no general rule can be drawn as to the relationship between conventional actions and dhammas. > =============== > RE: For instance, as I pointed out, one cannot murder someone while in a kusala mental state. One cannot engage in wrong speech while in a kusala mental state. So kusala does have expression and influence in conventional actions or restraint fro such actions, even though the action in and of itself is not the creator of the kusala. So perhaps you can address this point, and what its significance is? > =============== J: In the teachings, there's no such thing as being "in a kusala/akusala mental state" in any sense other than a momentary one. The mental state may vary from one mind-door process to the next. So there may be kusala in the midst of a conventional action that we would consider to be an unwholesome one, and akusala in the midst of a wholesome one. No rule, no particular relationship. > =============== > RE: To me it means that there is a connection between kusala and conventional action, and that kusala precludes actions that are unwholesome by definition, according to the Buddha. A person cannot be drinking, smoking. cursing and beating their child while in a kusala mental state. It's just not going to happen. Kusala leads one in a wholesome direction in life as well as in mind. Would you not agree? > =============== J: The performing of conventional actions that are `unwholesome' does not preclude the arising of kusala mental states in the midst of (even very strong) akusala. Even for someone who has not heard the teachings, for example, there can be moments of `knowing' that one is causing (undeserved) hurt to another, that one's conduct breaches conventional norms, that one is taking out one's own `issues' on another, and so on. > =============== > > "Mind is the forerunner of states [J: dhammas]. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox. > > > > Mind is the forerunner of states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, affection follows one, even as one's shadow that never leaves." > > RE: A "forerunner" creates what comes after it. Kusala mental states are the forerunner of kusala speech and actions. That is my point. > =============== J: Note that the text does not speak of kusala or akusala actions. It talks about acting with kusala/akusala mental states. > =============== > RE: A kusala mental state will not lead to a man mercilessly beating his horse. Would it ever? No. They cannot coincide because cruelly beating one's horse is inherently akusala in itself. > =============== J: But a man who is mercilessly beating his horse (with akusala mental states) may have kusala moments among the akusala ones. There is no principle of Dhamma to the contrary. > =============== > RE: Washing the dishes is not especially good or evil, just a task, but if kusala is arising, the dishes will be washed in a benign and wholesome manner, so the kusala mental state influences and infiltrates the conventional action. They are not disassociated from each other. > =============== J: The idea of the mental state "infiltrating and influencing the conventional action" is not part of the teaching of the Buddha. In terms of the dhammas spoken of by the Buddha, the only difference between the conventional action of washing the dishes with kusala mental state (unlikely, but theoretically possible, I suppose!) and washing the dishes with akusala mental state is a difference in the ethical quality of the citta and accompanying mental factors at the moments of kusala; the other arising dhammas are the same. Jon #125618 From: "Alberto" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:40 pm Subject: arammana paccaya sprlrt Dear Lukas, > Do u think u could translate the the few frist pages of Patthana from pali? I mean only Paccayuddeso where all 24 kinds conditions are listed, and Paccayaniddeso, where there 24 conditions are exposed in briefly. Sorry, I've stopped translating from paali, too difficult for me. > Arammanapaccayoti: > rupaayatana.m cakkhuvi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa ta.msampayuttakaana~nca dhammaana.m aaramma.napaccayena paccayo. > I think this may means: visible object base(as ayatana) condtions seeing-consciousness and its accompanying dhammas by way of object condition. Dhammas have specific characteristics (lakkhana/sabhava), that of citta (any citta: kusala/akusala, vipaka or kiriya) is to think about, or experience, an object. So it is citta only that has that characteristic, not cetasikas (although they share with citta the same object, and they too therefore are the paccayauppanna (the dhammas conditioned by a paccaya) of arammana paccaya) they have others characteristics, which distinguishes them from citta and from each other). Rupa doesn't think about or experience anything, neither nibbana, they are not conditioned by arammana paccaya, only citta (and cetasikas) are. We give importance to what 'we' think about or experience, forgetting that it is just the characteristic of citta, a reality arising because of conditions (such as arammana) and falling away the next instant. Alberto #125619 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:19 pm Subject: thanks nilovg Dear Sarah, Jon, Howard, Dieter, Christine, Han and Phil, dear good friends, We wish to thank you so much for your kind thoughts and wishes, we really appreciate this. Nina and Lodewijk. #125620 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:23 pm Subject: Thanks nilovg Dear Rob E, Thank you for your good wishes and your kindness. I had the opportunity to read messages only today. Nina. #125621 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:31 pm Subject: Life-events and the development of the path (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Hi Rob E (125537) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > RE: My point, though disputed, is that the other forms of kusala are necessary, not just desirable, to the development of insight. Without kusala, how can one have detachment, peacefulness and clarity? Without those, how can one have insight? If the defilements are buzzing like crazy, arising all the time, I would not expect much insight to develop. > =============== J: Yes, that is the `popular' view, but not the message of the teachings. The development of awareness can proceed regardless of the general level of defilements. > =============== > RE: I think there is quite a bit of dualism in most of our consideration of dhammas, divorcing them from what is experienced in life, which indeed is what most of us experience 24/7. Instead we see the theoretical arising of dhammas - little monads separate from experience - as more important than a mother beating a child or an alcoholic taking a drink. I think it's more worthwhile to understand the role of akusala dhammas in *those* events, rather than how they occur in an official theoretical series in a book. The book should lead us to understand how to view life-events correctly, not how to ignore them. > =============== J: The development of the path does not involve ignoring life-events, but nor does it involve understanding how to view them correctly. It proceeds regardless of circumstances (life-events). > =============== > RE: By the way, I would like to stress that when I argue for this, it is not an argument in my favor. I'm terrible at the development of kusala in everyday life, and I agree it's not something we can control. I still think it's necessary however, and that it's the right perspective to adopt. > =============== J: Yes, it's the perspective (understanding) that counts, not the extent to which there is kusala in one's daily life. Jon #125622 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:52 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 jonoabb Hi Rob E (125584) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > RE: Well the way I look at it, given the agreed-upon fact that without kusala mental factors, there is no kusala, is that certain sorts of activities 'in the world' as it were, are of importance and do tend to promote kusala, but cannot on their own create kusala. I also think that certain conventional activities will tend to create akusala, and some of them cannot be "saved" by the theoretical accompaniment of kusala mental factors, since kusala cannot accompany such activities. > =============== J: Regarding "certain conventional activities will tend to create akusala", the Buddha taught that akusala kamma brings akusala vipaka. And akusala kamma, in the ultimate analysis, is the cetana that accompanies akusala cittas. > ============== > RE: So I believe that if one is indeed a butcher who slaughters chickens for a living, that Buddha would say that this person cannot develop kusala at the moment of slaughtering a chicken and that they are instead developing negative kamma at those moments, and so that form of livelihood is working *against* the path, rather than being neutral or insignificant. That's an example, the type of example I have in mind, of "conventional activities" supporting or not supporting the path. > =============== J: The Buddha pointed out the dangers of akusala kamma patha (namely, rebirth in planes where there is no access to the teachings), but other than that did not dwell on the akusala that arises for most of our waking hours. > ============== > RE: One cannot commit murder while developing kusala mental factors. Could one have an epiphany moment where one sees the akusala factors that cause/accompany killing as merely arising cetasikas and have a path-development moment? I think so. But I also think the accumulations of someone who kills makes it unlikely that such a moment will develop any time soon. So that's my take on "conventional" reality and the path. > =============== J: The doing of a conventionally unwholesome deed is not, as a matter of doctrine, a bar to the development of the path. In practice, of course, those who are interested in the development of the path are also likely to be interested in developing kusala of all kinds in their daily life. Jon #125623 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:29 pm Subject: What is pariyatti. no 1. nilovg Dear friends, From a recording, talks with Jessika. Kh S: < What is pariyatti? It has to be the reality, dhamma, now. What the Buddha taught from the time he was enlightened, all his teachings are pariyatti. We may think that pariyatti is only in the book. That is not pariyatti so long as there is no understanding of reality right now. It is not different from this moment, it has to be the real dhamma now. The texts help one to consider, to read about it and to know that it is now. When the understanding of pariyatti is fully developed it it is sacca ~naa.na. (N: There must be three rounds of understanding the noble Truths: sacca ~naa.na, understanding of what has to be known and what the Path is; kicca ~naa.na, understanding of the task, that is, satipa.t.thaana; kata ~naa.na: understanding of what has been realized, the realisation of the truth.) There is then no doubt about the reality right now. If there is still doubt about about the reality right now as dhamma, there are no conditions for the right awareness. Jessica: What is pa.tipatti, the practice? Kh S: If we do not use any terms are there realities appearing right now? We use words in order to know which reality appears. We are talking about hardness, we know that it can be experienced by body- consciousness. And now, does it appear? Is it dhamma? Yes. If there is not the naama that experiences it can it appear? Hardness is not the reality that experiences it, these are different kinds of realities. There must be the faculty of knowing or experiencing an object, otherwise nothing can appear. Is it you who experiences hardness? Jessica: No. Kh S: that is pariyatti, when you say: no. When there is touching at that moment hardness appears and understanding understands the characteristic of hardness as not the experience. You do not have to use the names naama and ruupa. We can say: seeing is naama, visible object is ruupa, hearing is naama, sound is ruupa, etc. It does not come automatically, it comes from listening and considering. Pariyatti has conditions too, from hearing and considering. No one can understand instantly the reality that experiences hardness. When awareness arises and is aware, that moment is different from a moment without awareness. Pa.tipatti is the moment when sati arises. In the beginning it is so weak. Pa~n~naa knows that a moment of awareness is different from a moment without awareness. Pa~n~naa develops and this takes time. -------- (to be continued) Nina. #125624 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:42 pm Subject: packing lists. nilovg Dear Lukas and Alberto, I liked to read about your packing list. Give us more! This reminded me of a Dhamma friend Icaro who had to pack for bootcamp: N: This was his packing list: solidity (or extension) cohesion temperature motion eyesense earsense nose (smellingsense) tongue (tastingsense) bodysense visible object sound odour flavour femininity masculinity heart-base life faculty nutrition space bodily intimation speech intimation lightness plasticity wieldiness birth or integration continuity decay impermanence A picture of the whole! Yes, I often think of his natural way of learning about the 28 rupas, just realities in daily life. They are right at hand. His presence was so refreshing, Abhidhamma straight. It happens that today I am with my packing list for Bgk. I am so inspired by Icaro!! Visible object is just to be seen, hardness is to be touched, sound is to be heard. There are the eight inseparables, avinibhogas, as real as anything. All around. Rupas, no concepts!! Packing without stress, it is fun. I was looking for some red slippers in the cupboard, and yes, only one was there, why never in pairs? Then quietly looking in some boxes, Icaros' list in hand. There was the second one, and colour was seen. After that defining: a slipper. Colour is the only, only rupa of this list that can be seen. I will not let all of you look further into my untidy cupboard. Date: Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] grow disenchanted with stress ashkenn2k Dear Dieter sorry I have to correct the sutta quote, I forget to add in the NOT before a mental one <> SN 36.6 Sallatha Sutta cheers KC >________________________________ >From: Dieter Moeller >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Saturday, 21 July 2012, 23:50 >Subject: Re: [dsg] grow disenchanted with stress > > > >Dear KC, (all) > >you wrote: > >I give you some write up in Abhidhamam to describe the meaning of suffering. It also explains why noble one experience bodily pain >Dukkha from Dispeller of Delusion para 446 >446. Herein this is the list {maatikaa) for the purpose of expounding the Noble truth of suffering; for this suffering is manifold and of various kinds, that is to say ; the suffering as suffering, the suffering in change, the suffering in formations, concealed suffering, exposed suffering, figurative suffering (pariyaaya), literal suffering. >447. Herein bodily and mental painful feeling are called "suffering as suffering" because of their individual essence, because of their name and because of painfulness. [Bodily and mental] pleasant feeling are called "suffering in change" because of being the cause of the arising of pain through their change. Indifferent feeling and the remaining formations of the three planes are called “suffering in formations” because of being oppressed by rise and fall. But there is likewise oppression even in the paths and fruition, therefore these states should be understood to be called “suffering of the formations”, by their being included in the Truth of Suffering. >448. Such bodily and mental afflictions as earache, toothache, fever born of lust, fever born of hate, etc are called “concealed suffering” because they can only be known by questioning, and because the attack is not openly evident: they are also called “unevident suffering”. Afflictions produced by the 32 tortures and so on is called “exposed suffering”. Except for suffering as suffering, the rest come down in the Dukkhasaccavibha.nga (Vbh 99). Also all beginning birth are called “figurative suffering” because they are the basis of one or another kind of suffering, but it is “suffering as suffering” that is called “literal suffering” > ><> SN 36.6 Sallatha Sutta > >D: thanks for the quotations, KC , offering food for thoughts. >For example what is the difference between the toothache of a commoner and a noble one, besides that the latter endures the pain without "sorrow, grieve or lament; he does not weep weeping his breast and become distraught" (the so called second dart) ?. >Mental and bodily pain are stated within the first N.T. , all of these expected to end (third N.T.) .. but then it seems to be only part of it > >KC: I felt this is a good sutta extracts that explain the intensity of suffering ><<"What is grief? It is the grief, sorrow, sorrowfulness, the state of being sorry, inward sorrow, inward intense sorrow visited by some calamity or other, smitten by some kind of ill or other. This is called grief. >"What is lamentation? It is the crying, the wailing, the act of crying, the act of wailing, the state of crying, the state of wailing of one visited by some calamity or other, smitten by some kind of ill or other. This is called lamentation. >"What is suffering? It is bodily suffering, bodily unpleasantness, the painful and unpleasant feeling produced by bodily contact. This is called suffering. >"What is misery? It is mental suffering, unpleasantness, the painful and unpleasant feeling produced by mental contact. This is called misery. >"What is despair? It is despondency, despair, the state of despondency, the state of despair of one visited by some calamity or other. This is called despair. >>> Majjhima Nikaya 141 Saccavibhanga Sutta > >D: yes , good extract >the issue of suffering , its contemplation and understanding what has been said about it , is - as you may know - a condition for faith in the Dhamma, not by chance mentioned in the place. >As you pointed out there is broad scale of intensity , a feeling from simple boredom to agony . > >However the topic concerns whether there is any need to grow disentchanted with that unpleasantness, as expressed by 'atha nibbindati dukkhe' Dhammapada .. > >with Metta Dieter > >> > > > > #125626 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:33 am Subject: What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Hi Rob E (125614) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > RE: You bring up a general assertion in response to a specific example. I wonder what your response would be to the example I mentioned. Can kusala arise in the midst of murder? Can there be a kusala mental state while murder is taking place? > =============== J: I think I've already covered this. Moments of kusala can arise in the midst of moments of strong akusala, and vice versa. Hope that's clear enough for you :-)) > =============== > RE: Is it possible for a kusala mental factor to lead one to akusala kamma vipaka? > =============== J: Kusala intention/kamma cannot lead to akusala vipaka. > =============== > RE: I think the answer in all cases is no. Of course kusala can arise in the midst of negative circumstances, but if I am in the midst of stabbing someone or cutting the head off of a live chicken, I am asserting that during such activities kusala is not present. Do you disagree? > =============== J: There cannot be kusala and akusala at precisely the same moment. But the conventional act of killing a chicken spans innumerable citta moments, not all of which may be akusala. > =============== > RE: Sure, one shouldn't assume another's mental factors, but I am talking about a very specific question - whether kusala can arise during the very violent and callous activities that Buddha prescribed. The Buddha said that one may not eat meat that is killed specifically for a monk's meal. That is not a question of kusala mental factors, but of a defiled activity. Killing is likewise proscribed under any circumstances, regardless of mental state. Would you disagree? > =============== J: Intentionally taking life is akusala kamma patha. If the death of another is caused but the necessary intention is not present (e.g., it happens by accident), then it's not akusala kamma patha. > =============== > RE: The act of purposely taking another's life is always wrong according to the Buddha. So, a certain person may be very nice and happy and kill chickens for a living, but the Buddha would not consider that kusala. > =============== J: Agreed. The mental moments that constitute any part of the deliberate taking of life would not be kusala (but there could be kusala moments intermingled). > =============== > RE: At best it is the result of ignorance, which is akusala. Do you disagree? > =============== J: Ignorance and dosa would be involved. > =============== > > J: Right speech and action are the kusala restraint from wrong speech and action. If the restraint is without kusala, then there's no right speech or action. > > RE: In the listings of akusala kamma patha, there are definite actions that are named in the lists of speech and action. > =============== J: The kinds of akusala kamma patha mentioned do not specify particular conventional actions. For example, the akusala kamma path of killing could be committed by speaking over the phone (or by a text message, for that matter), as where A gives an order to B to take the life of another and B does just that. > =============== > RE: In addition, while kusala kamma patha is caused by restraint, positive expressions are also implied, eg, 'telling the truth,' not just restraint from lying. > =============== J: There does not have to be speaking the truth in order to constitute right speech; restraint from wrong speech suffices, if at that moment the kusala mental factor (that is given the name "right speech") arises. Jon #125627 From: "azita" Date: Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:56 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland gazita2002 Hallo RobE, Sarah, > >Gee, I wish I could join you - would be a great opportunity as you say. My schedule won't allow it again this time, so I will have to aim for a future occasion in Thailand, when the vipaka is lined up correctly. Unless I can get my cousin to reschedule his wedding... azita: wish I could join in also Rob, however, its so far away from the land of Oz and besides, I have a ticket for Bkk for Sept26 - o well. Cheap tickets that cannot be changed. I think Sarah, that you will not be in Bkk by the time I get there, have I got that right? Do you know if AS will be back in Thailand by then. All good here, mostly, pleasant winter days in the tropics. Attended 5yo grandsons birthday yesterday, lots of party food, not one moment of eeven thinking about dhamma. 6month old granddaughter is learning to blow bubbles, she's a cute little thing. Round and round we go .......... :) patience, courage and good cheer azita #125628 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:11 pm Subject: Re: arammana paccaya szmicio Dear Alberto, > > Arammanapaccayoti: > > > rupaayatana.m cakkhuvi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa ta.msampayuttakaana~nca dhammaana.m aaramma.napaccayena paccayo. > > I think this may means: visible object base(as > ayatana) condtions seeing-consciousness and its accompanying dhammas by way of object condition. > Dhammas have specific characteristics (lakkhana/sabhava), that of >citta (any citta: kusala/akusala, vipaka or kiriya) is to think >about, or experience, an object. L: Is there any difference of lakkhana of citta and sabhava? lakkhana seems like sign, sabhava like with its own distinguis nature. The characteristic of citta is as I used to tell Luraya often(my friend also eager to meet Acharn in Poland)that which experiences. But if we must render the most accurate meaning for citta, its characteristic what it will be? that which thinks of, that knows an object, that what experience? cinteti is that what thinks of, that's why that is called citta, I think. but mano, the mind another world for citta. If it's called mano, than it's that that knows an object? I like this reminder, that what experiences, the characteristic that experiences, only that now. And vi~n~nana that is what? >So it is citta only that has that characteristic, not cetasikas (although they share with citta the same object, and they too therefore are the paccayauppanna (the dhammas conditioned by a paccaya) of arammana paccaya) they have others characteristics, which distinguishes them from citta and from each other). L: In case of arammanapaccaya, the visible object (base) conditions cakkhuvi~n~nanadhatu tamsampayutta dhammaa. So it's the visible object, the vana color that conditions seeing consciousness associated with other dhammas, cetasikas, like phassa. So in the case of arammana paccaya do u think this is mainly cakkhuvi~n~nana dhatu mainly or only conditioned by visible object? > Rupa doesn't think about or experience anything, neither nibbana, they are not conditioned by arammana paccaya, only citta (and cetasikas) are. L: And I think that rupas are dhammas that are not associatied with citta and cetasika. But nibbana itself is nama. > We give importance to what 'we' think about or experience, forgetting that it is just the characteristic of citta, a reality arising because of conditions (such as arammana) and falling away the next instant. L: That's true. Good reminder for a day. Best wishes Lukas #125629 From: Lukas Date: Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:10 pm Subject: What is the characteristic of citta that can be known in daily life? szmicio Dear friends, What is the characteristic of citta? All what appers, comes due to citta? But how citta can be known in daily life? I am listening Dhamma quite a bit last days, but the right understanding of the characteristic of citta never arises. What is the way to understand this characteristic of citta? Best wishes Lukas #125630 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:31 pm Subject: More on kusala/akusala and actions (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: It is of course common sense to say that a person is unlikely to be having moments of metta while screaming and cursing at someone. > > But it's not a principle of Dhamma that there can be no kusala at such times. For example, awareness of the akusala at such a time is quite possible (if awareness has previously been developed). Sure it's always possible that a moment of awareness may arise, but the fact remains that it is the akusala that is leading to the action. The reason it is common sense that screaming and cursing would go with arising akusala is in fact because they go together. A moment of awareness would be a break in that akusala, an exception rather than the rule. I'm just trying to establish the association, in general, of akusala with conventional negative actions, and like you say, it's common sense, because it is indeed sensible to see them as associated. > And conversely, a person exhibiting great kindness to another may be having strong conceit or wrong view, or may have a self-serving motive in acting that way. Right, and these are clearly contradictory, which shows that in the normal situation they would be in harmony. The reason that an act of generosity *appears* to be good, is because in general it is. If negative mental factors "spoil the broth" that is a deviation from what would be natural and obvious, and there's a reaso why such an association is natural and obvious. > There is no hard and fast rule, and it would be a mistake to think that the quality of the citta can be deduced from the outward appearance of the action. I agree with the latter part of that statement but not the former. True, you cannot deduce the motive from a given action, but in general, in many instances it will be what one would expect. Acts of kindness in general come from the intention to be kind. There may be other motives but that is what is natural to such an act, to come from the intention to do such an act of kindness. > > =============== > > RE: And I would reverse the statement to say that in fact "conventional reality follows paramatha dhammas," and is the imperfect reflection of paramatha dhammas that worldlings experience. > > =============== > > J: Sorry Rob, but I'm not in agreement with you on this point :-)) Well, I guess we can't agree on everything... Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - #125631 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:55 pm Subject: what is pariyatti, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Jon: What is the characteristic of pariyatti? Kh S: Now. We understand that there is no self. What we take for self are only seeing, hearing, smelling, etc. and all other realities. There is a difference between no understanding about realities, and understanding of realities conditioned by hearing and considering. There can be moments of akusala or of kusala with or without understanding. We learn this from texts, but when they are present but there is no direct awareness, they are not known. Direct awareness is different. When pariyatti is sufficient it conditions pa.tipatti. When one thinks how one can have it and what one should do to gain it, this is not the way. Sacca ~naa.na conditions pa.tipatti. Sacca ~naa.na realizes that each reality is conditioned whenever it arises. One is so concerned about wanting to know, but pa~n~naa is the opposite of the idea of wanting to, wanting to, wanting to. ****** Nina. #125632 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:57 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 5, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, The sutta then continues concerning the second watch of the night: Then with mind composed... I directed my mind to the knowledge of the passing hence and the arising of beings. With the purified deva- vision surpassing that of men I see beings as they pass hence or come to be; I comprehend that beings are mean, excellent, comely, ugly, well-going, ill-going, according to the consequences of their deeds... This, brahman, was the second knowledge attained by me in the middle watch of the night; ignorance was dispelled, knowledge arose, darkness was dispelled, light arose, even as I abided diligent, ardent, self-resolute.... The Bodhisatta who had always been intent on the happiness and welfare of all beings must have felt great compassion after he had seen the passing away and rebirth of beings. Always gentle, compassionate, merciful and kind, he had been intent on the happiness of others by giving gifts, by observing sla and by dispelling peoples fears. He had always been extremely patient with peoples many kinds of faults and he had never felt a trace of hatred when they tried to harm him. That night he saw how people reaped what they had sown, how they were heirs to their deeds. He saw some people who had a happy rebirth and others who has an unhappy rebirth. He who would very soon make an end to the cycle of birth and death was full of compassion for those who were still caught up in ignorance and craving and, thus, subject to the dangers of rebirth. He was unshakable in his resolve to help as many beings as he could by attaining Buddhahood that very night. ****** Nina. #125633 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:31 pm Subject: Re: To Alberto. Dhamma trip to Poland sarahprocter... Dear Lukas (& Alberto), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lukas wrote: > Do u think u could translate the the few frist pages of Patthana from pali? I mean only Paccayuddeso where all 24 kinds conditions are listed, and Paccayaniddeso, where there 24 conditions are exposed in briefly. I found this very deep when I read it in England, having english translation from library. It would be great if we could both read it to Acharn, and ask a questions. The exposition in brief of arammana paccaya is so deep. I found that this Paccayanidesso with description in short of all conditions is so good reminder to read in daily life. Sometimes it is good to have short good reminder, than reading a lot on conditions. It would be a great gift for me also, since I cant read pali and I dont have Patthana in english. > > In Paccayaniddeso the second kind of conditions arammana paccaya starts. > > == > Arammanapaccayoti: > > rupaayatana.m cakkhuvi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa ta.msampayuttakaana~nca dhammaana.m aaramma.napaccayena paccayo. I think this may means: visible object base(as ayatana) condtions seeing-consciousness and its accompanying dhammas by way of object condition. ... S: Yes. Here is Narada's transl: "Visible object-base is related to eye-consciousness element and its associated states by object condition." > === > > So the visible object base is a condition for seeing-consciousness to arise and all 7 cetasikas arising with seeing consciousness by way of object condition. Without visible object seeing could never arise. I think this is great reminder for all of us. We think 'I see', 'my seeing', 'me in seeing'. But this is only a seeing consciousness that arise and perform its function. There is no self anywhere that could make seeing arise. like open ones eyes to see. This is all conditioned. Without the second condition, object condition there would be no seeing. Do we remember that? Without visible object that is ruupa, seeing could never arise. Seeing is conditioned by visible object. Visible object condition seeing right now. No Self anywhere, going to shop, typying on the keybord, walking the park. Just seeing and visible object and the second condition - object condition. ... S: Yes, all good points you make. ... > I think ruupaayatana is mentioned here, not ruupadhatu to express the meaning of that only visible object conditions the seeing consciousness, and not the eye-sense by way of arammana-paccaya. The color conditions seeing consciousness by way of object condition right now. Just my thoughts. ... S: What you say is correct - that only visible object conditions seeing by way of being object, but I'm not sure why ayatana is mentioned rather than dhatu in this context. For example, ruupadhatu is visible object element. Eye-sense element would be cakkhudhaatu. Perhaps the point is that it is stressing the coming together of the ayatanas, the meeting of visible object and seeing consciousness when visible object is experienced. If the text used manaayatana rather than cakkuvi~n~naana dhaatu, it would not be clear that it was just seeing consciousness being referred to. A good qu for Poland. Alberto may have ideas. If you have any other short extracts in Pali that you want the English transl for, I can do it just these few days before I leave my books when I travel back to Hong Kong at the weekend. Metta Sarah ===== #125634 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:41 pm Subject: What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Hi Rob E (125614) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: The entry for `muula' also contains a sutta passage that is relevant: > > > > "Killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse, lying, tale-bearing, harsh language, frivolous talk, covetousness, ill-will and wrong views (s. kammapatha), these things are due either to greed, or hate, or delusion" (A.X.174). > > > > So deeds are unwholesome by virtue of being accompanied by (and to the extent that they are accompanied by) one or more of the akusala roots. > > RE: Well I still think you are leaving out the connection which is stated directly here between those akusala mental states and their *expression* in conventional actions. When the text states that Killing, Steading, etc. are *due to* greed, hate or delusion, it is making the very connection I am talking about. When akusala mental stastes arise they will be expressed as akusala actions, and when such actions are present, one can presume the presence of akusala mental states. They are indeed associated, and arise together, just as your quote states above. > =============== J: To my understanding, when the texts speak of killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse, etc., they are speaking of the akusala kamma patha of that name and not of conventional actions that may appear to correspond to those akusala kamma patha. In any event, the texts do not go on to say that "when such actions are present, one can presume the presence of akusala mental states", or anything to that effect. And there would be no purpose in doing so, since it does not help with the development of understanding of presently arising dhammas. > =============== > RE: Again, when known unwholesome actions are present, one can know that they have been caused by unwholesome mental states. This explains Rob K.'s statement that "if there is more kusala, there will be less murder." Kusala and akusala mental states are expressed in conventional actions that accord with those mental states. There is no such thing as a murder that is accompanied by kusala mental states. It is impossible, as murder is the outcome, as your quote above shows, of akusala mental states themselves. > =============== J: Regarding, "when known unwholesome actions are present, one can know that they have been caused by unwholesome mental states", that `knowledge' is in fact a deduction based on a characterisation of the conventional action as an `unwholesome' one; and a deduction is a kind of thinking. Whereas the development of the path involves knowledge gained by direct experience of presently arisen dhammas. Jon #125635 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:49 pm Subject: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (2) philofillet Dear Group, Here is today's passage from Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket: "There is not only citta that sees, citta that hears, citta that smells, citta that tastes or citta that experiences tangible object, there is also citta that thinks about many diverse subjects. The world of each person is ruled by his citta. The cittas of some people have accumulated a great deal of wholesomeness (kusala.) Even when they meet someone who is full of defilements they can still have loving-kindness, compassion or equanimity because of their accumulations of wholesomeness. Whereas the world of someone else may be a world of hatred, annoyance, anger and displeasure, according to his accumulations. Thus, in reality, each person is all the time his own world." (p.51) (end of passage) Phil #125636 From: "Alberto" Date: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:59 pm Subject: lakkhana and sabhaavalakkhana sprlrt Hi Lukas, > L: Is there any difference of lakkhana of citta and sabhava? Patisambhidamagga atthakatha (also Visuddhimagga I think) explains lakkhana as both the characteristic (sabhaavalakkhana) distiguishing each paramattha dhamma (citta, 52 cetasikas, 28 ruupas, and nibbana), and as the characteristics (samannalakkhana) common to them all, in the case of anatta, and to all but nibbana in the case of the other two (dukkha and anicca). > mano, the mind another world for citta. And vi~n~nana...? Citta, manodhathu, manovinnanadhatu, manaayatana, vinnanakhandha; different words, same reality. See 'Survey', p. 252. Alberto PS I'll try to answer your other questions in another post. #125637 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is the characteristic of citta that can be known in daily life? upasaka_howard Hi, Lukas - In a message dated 7/23/2012 1:10:08 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, szmicio@... writes: Dear friends, What is the characteristic of citta? All what appers, comes due to citta? But how citta can be known in daily life? I am listening Dhamma quite a bit last days, but the right understanding of the characteristic of citta never arises. What is the way to understand this characteristic of citta? Best wishes Lukas ================================== Do you not know, i.e., directly experience (and not just infer), when you are seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, feeling a bodily sensation, thinking of something, or experiencing an emotion or a mental quality? Each of these observed cognitive events is an instance of knowing an object, of citta/vi~n~nana. (And your observations of them are also instances of citta.) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #125638 From: "azita" Date: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:08 am Subject: Re: What is the characteristic of citta that can be known in daily life? gazita2002 hallo Lucas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lukas wrote: > > Dear friends, > What is the characteristic of citta? azita: Citta is that which experiences object eg visible object, sound etc. Because of wrong understanding/ignorance we mistake these experiences for 'me or my experience'. > > All what appers, comes due to citta? But how citta can be known in daily life? azita: citta can only be known when sati and panna are highly developed. It takes a long time, depending on accumulations of panna developed in previous lifetimes, to know citta, however we can start now by understanding theoretically that seeing now is citta, hearing now is citta. Citta is daily life, arising, experiencing object, falling away only to be immediately followed by another completely new citta, which is conditioned in part, by the falling away of the last citta. > > I am listening Dhamma quite a bit last days, but the right understanding of the characteristic of citta never arises. What is the way to understand this characteristic of citta? azita: firstly, I think that trying to have right understanding is the very thing that prevents it from arising. The path to developing right understanding goes along with detachment not attachment to having awareness arise when we want. Studying, listening, contemplating the dhamma and sanna will remember over time, that this present moment is jst another arising and falling away of citta, cetasika and rupa. No'we' to do anything. patience, courage and good cheer, azita #125639 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] packing lists. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Lukas & Alberto, >________________________________ > From: Nina van Gorkom >I liked to read about your packing list. Give us more! > >This reminded me of a Dhamma friend Icaro who had to pack for bootcamp: ... S: Yes, I remember Icaro's packing:-) I had it in mind too..... I'm beginning to pull out some warm clothes that I'll need in Poland which I don't need in Asia..... hat, scarf....maybe gloves....rather like in Sydney now - cool. As I pull out items,my mind flits between thoughts of Poland and thoughts of my incredible swim this morning. As I got ready first thing this morning to swim out with a group of friends in our pink caps on a rather cold, grey and wet winter morning, we spotted a huge whale with her calf in the bay. We swam closer and the mother swam towards us. For an hour she swam amongst us, underneath us, herding us together ever so gently. Extraordinary. She must have been about the size of a greyhound bus and so very gentle and playful, circling around and coming closer everytime we moved away to give her more space. Was it just visible object that was seen? Yes, just like now. What a lot of thinking, dreaming and excitement follows the moments of seeing. No wonder the Buddha always started with the eye-door. We attach such huge importance to what is seen, immediately so lost in the stories about winter clothes, whales and beautiful sights. Some may wonder whether there can be awareness whilst touching the whale, swimming by its side and so on. Anytime at all. Only hardness that is touched, only visible object which is seen, only attachment on account of these experiences. And now back to my packing again: Just made a couple of copies of the first few pages of the Patthana for Lukas. I don't have a scanner, but I can carry them. Would Lukas & Alberto like a copy of "The conditionality of Life" - I have spares, but maybe they already have it. I need to keep my luggage as light as possible - a long journey. Dilemmas, decisions.....more thinking, slight anxiety, dosa even whilst thinking of a gift for friends. Different realities - a wholesome conventional action with different cittas and a long story about a whale with moments of wise reflection. We just can't tell from the situation or act. "Taking Refuge in Buddhism"? No, I only have one copy and they can download it... What else, recording equipment, more thinking, more sense experiences, more conditioned dilemmas. No self to select or decide anything. I wonder if anyone has uploaded the pictures of the whales yet on our swim blog - must take a look (and send you all a link later). Curiosity, attachment.....all so very natural. Daily life! We don't need to avoid it. It can't be avoided - conditioned tendencies by natural decisive support condition. Not just accumulated in this lifetime but accumulated for aeons in the past. Worldly conditions - we have major flooding problems in our flat, but then this experience with the whales.....gain and loss, pleasure and sadness all day long. Only the anagami is unaffected by sense experiences and has no more anxiety or fear. Yes, with the whale - excitement, fear, seeing of visible object, occasional wise reflection and so life goes on. Round and round as Azita said. Packing: more sense experiences, more thinking, more namas, more rupas......all completely conditioned. Never a self to make any selection at all. Understanding the "all", just the dhammas arising and falling away now is the lifting of the burden of samsara. Metta Sarah ========== #125640 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] packing lists. sarahprocter... Dear Friends, >________________________________ > From: sarah abbott As I got ready first thing this morning to swim out with a group of friends in our pink caps on a rather cold, grey and wet winter morning, we spotted a huge whale with her calf in the bay. We swam closer and the mother swam towards us. For an hour she swam amongst us, underneath us, herding us together ever so gently. Extraordinary. She must have been about the size of a greyhound bus and so very gentle and playful, circling around and coming closer everytime we moved away to give her more space. > >Was it just visible object that was seen? Yes, just like now. .... S: Here's a link for anyone interested: http://pacificjules.typepad.com/pacific-jules/2012/07/24072012-a-whale-of-a-day-\ .html Sarah #125641 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:18 pm Subject: "More kusala means less murders" (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Hi Rob E (125586) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > > > > RE: Rob K.'s statement that "more kusala cittas should lead to less murder" sort of summarizes the point in question. If we could look at that, perhaps that would be a good place to clarify the issue. > > > > > =============== > > > > > > J: The Visuddhimagga (Ch XXIII) gives, as the first among the `benefits in developing understanding', the removal of various defilements. It explains this as follows: > > > > "2. Herein, it should be understood that one of the benefits of the mundane development of understanding is the removal of the various defilements beginning with [mistaken] view of individuality. This starts with the delimitation of mentality-materiality. Then one of the benefits of the supramundane development of understanding is the removal, at the path moment, of the various defilements beginning with the fetters." > > > > Note that the first defilement to be removed is wrong view, and that this starts with understanding the difference between nama and rupa. > > RE: I think I am a little confused as to how this applies to the current discussion. Could you make it a little more clear for me? > =============== J: It's a comment on the proposition that "more kusala cittas should lead to less murder". The passage explains that when there is the development of the path, the akusala that is first diminished is the wrong view of self; and that development begins with the understanding of the difference between namas and rupas. And as we know, the development proceeds from there to an understanding of dhammas as anicca, dukkha and anatta. It is when dhammas are more clearly known as conditioned phenomena that the deeply entrenched idea of self is broken down. In short, with the development of the path there may or may not be less gross akusala in one's daily life; but there will certainly be a clearer understanding of dhammas and less attachment to the idea of self. Hoping that explains the relevance of the passage to the current discussion. Jon #125642 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:34 pm Subject: "More kusala, less murder" II (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Hi Rob E (125586) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: I'm not sure just what that statement ("more kusala cittas should lead to less murder") means. Less murder by whom? How is "less murder" known? > > > > Perhaps it means something like, "as more kusala is developed (by a given individual), there will be more deeds performed (by that individual) that are accompanied by kusala and fewer deeds that are accompanied by akusala". > > RE: It can't just be "accompanied by" if in fact certain acts cannot take place with kusala - it's a little more causal than that I think. > =============== J: So what is your understanding of the statement, "more kusala cittas should lead to less murder"? > =============== > > J: That may be generally so, but it does not show a particular relationship between dhammas and conventional actions. > > RE: Well so far you have not taken up my "proof" that this is the case - that murder cannot arise in the face of kusala. That is a particular relationship between kusala and murder. Otherwise I think we'd have to say that we can have a murder accompanied by kusala, which is clearly absurd. If that is indeed absurd, there is a particular relationship right there I think. Why avoid the obvious? > =============== J: The question, at its simplest, is whether akusala cittas can arise among, or intermingled with (but of course not at exactly the same instant as), cittas that are kusala. To my understanding, the answer is certainly yes. For example, swatting a pesky mosquito while listening intently to a teaching on Dhamma :-)) Jon #125643 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:51 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > S: There are just the arising of various rupas in kalapas, separated by other kalapas by space, pariccheda akasa (space) rupa which depends on these kalapas for its arising. Any 'base' such as heart-base, is simply another rupa arising in another kalapa, again separated by akasa rupa from the next kalapa which is separated in this way. We cannot say that in actuality rupas arise in a base or another set of rupas. As you suggest, this kind of space is conditioned/dependent on these various kalapas of rupas. There is also the open space where there are no kalapas of rupas, but let's no go there now:-) Well I would be interested to know about that sometime - it sounds pretty intriguing... Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - #125644 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Wasteland epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: ...Seriously, what date is the wedding? Perhaps you could come for part of the trip - your own quick escape and Dhamma honeymoon? It would be wonderful to meet you and any other old friends at such an occasion. Thank you, I would certainly love to come. I don't think it will work out - but I will take a good look at it again... > Regardless, kusala akusala vipaka all the time, even as we write.....seeing, hearing and so on....all realities to be known now. Yes, and a lot of it - good to remember... Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - #125645 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:15 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: You are taking as your starting point a conventional action that you characterise as either a kusala or an akusala one. > > But the teaching given by the Buddha does not concern itself with the conventional nature of actions. It talks about kusala kamma patha and akusala kamma patha. Kamma (literally, `action') is declared to be the momentary mental factor of cetana (intention). The Buddha often does not make such a distinction, but talks about the taking of life, the existence of beings and the future experience of a murderer in future lives, without making such a distinction. > The commission of kamma patha does not have any particular conventional counterpart. For example, while a murder may be committed by an act of stabbing, it may also be committed by giving a coded instruction over the phone. So no general rule can be drawn as to the relationship between conventional actions and dhammas. I think what you're saying is that 'murder' cannot be confined to just one or two particular examples, not that 'murder' as a general rule cannot be connected to the dhammas of murderous intent and action. I think the general rule can be drawn, rather than the specifics, since they are multifarious. But murder is murder, whether by knife or phone. There's no distinction there in intention or in the fact that an action has to be committed to carry out the murderous intent and create complete kamma patha. A 'being' is murdered at the end of the process, and the death citta appears for that 'being.' > > =============== > J: In the teachings, there's no such thing as being "in a kusala/akusala mental state" in any sense other than a momentary one. The mental state may vary from one mind-door process to the next. So there may be kusala in the midst of a conventional action that we would consider to be an unwholesome one, and akusala in the midst of a wholesome one. No rule, no particular relationship. I'm in no position to challenge you on that, but my understanding of cittas, not just rupas, is that they do not arise randomly, but in some sort of orderly relationship. Not to say that a particular moment of this or that many not arise, but in general for murder to be carried out there has to be an organized preponderance of akusala cetana that is sustained or repeated enough to carry out the completion of kamma patha. > J: The performing of conventional actions that are `unwholesome' does not preclude the arising of kusala mental states in the midst of (even very strong) akusala. Even for someone who has not heard the teachings, for example, there can be moments of `knowing' that one is causing (undeserved) hurt to another, that one's conduct breaches conventional norms, that one is taking out one's own `issues' on another, and so on. Sure, I agree, but again, I think the preponderance of moments must be akusala or the akusala kamma patha would be interrupted. It can't take place in a single moment, or a few random moments. There has to be a concerted movement towards kamma patha, or it would not take place. > > =============== > > > "Mind is the forerunner of states [J: dhammas]. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox. > > > > > > Mind is the forerunner of states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, affection follows one, even as one's shadow that never leaves." > > > > RE: A "forerunner" creates what comes after it. Kusala mental states are the forerunner of kusala speech and actions. That is my point. > > =============== > > J: Note that the text does not speak of kusala or akusala actions. It talks about acting with kusala/akusala mental states. A forerunner is not an accompaniment. It is that which comes before and leads to what comes next. Intent leads to like action, for instance, in many cases. > > =============== > > RE: A kusala mental state will not lead to a man mercilessly beating his horse. Would it ever? No. They cannot coincide because cruelly beating one's horse is inherently akusala in itself. > > =============== > > J: But a man who is mercilessly beating his horse (with akusala mental states) may have kusala moments among the akusala ones. There is no principle of Dhamma to the contrary. Having a moment of remorse or awareness arise that is not strong enough to interrupt the pattern of akusala is not a breaking of the rule, but an exception to the rule. You can't have a steady horse-beating if there are not many akusala mental states arising to support the beating. I think that the fact that a bit of kusala can be interspersed is pretty much beside the point. There is not just random kusala and akusala arising hither and yon while concerted actions take place, I don't think. > > =============== > > RE: Washing the dishes is not especially good or evil, just a task, but if kusala is arising, the dishes will be washed in a benign and wholesome manner, so the kusala mental state influences and infiltrates the conventional action. They are not disassociated from each other. > > =============== > > J: The idea of the mental state "infiltrating and influencing the conventional action" is not part of the teaching of the Buddha. It's also not the teaching, as far as I can tell, to say that actions in the world have nothing to do with the path, and only mental states do. The Buddha never said that and he taught on many occasions the specific activities to engage in or avoid, not just mental states. You can't take all of those definite pronouncements about actions and lay all of that off onto mental states, if indeed you want to take note of all of the teachings. > In terms of the dhammas spoken of by the Buddha, the only difference between the conventional action of washing the dishes with kusala mental state (unlikely, but theoretically possible, I suppose!) and washing the dishes with akusala mental state is a difference in the ethical quality of the citta and accompanying mental factors at the moments of kusala; the other arising dhammas are the same. Maybe so for washing the dishes, but certainly not for beating one's horse. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - #125646 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:26 pm Subject: Life-events and the development of the path (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: Yes, it's the perspective (understanding) that counts, not the extent to which there is kusala in one's daily life. Well, ultimately I would agree with that too. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - #125647 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:28 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: The doing of a conventionally unwholesome deed is not, as a matter of doctrine, a bar to the development of the path. > > In practice, of course, those who are interested in the development of the path are also likely to be interested in developing kusala of all kinds in their daily life. Do you think that a butcher who spends most of his day chopping off chickens' heads has the same chance to develop the path as someone who is doing something not involving killing? Perhaps so...? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #125648 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Wasteland sarahprocter... Hi Rob E & all, >________________________________ > From: Robert E >Thank you, I would certainly love to come. I don't think it will work out - but I will take a good look at it again... .... S: The latest itinerary as organised by Lukas below. Everyone's keeping him busy with changes of plans and he's busy negotiating with hotel managers and so on. Nothing is too much trouble for Lukas and no talk of depressions or addictions from him these days:-))) Metta Sarah ********** 9-17th September Schedule for Dhamma trip to Poland ================== Day 0 - 9th of September (Sunday) Picking up Acharn and cooming Thai friends and friends cooming from different sides of the World. Travelling to the Hotel in Olsztyn by rented mini-buses. (here the possibility to travel by one bus). Some Dhamma talks in the bus if possible. Cooming to the Hotel. Dinner. Rest. ============ Day 1 - 10th of September (Monday) 07.00 - 08.30 b'fast in hotel, 08.30 - 09.30 free-time 09.30 - 11.30 Discussion outside or in conference room 12.00 - 14.00 lunch buffet in hotel 14.00 - 16.00 rest and free time 16.00 - 18.00 discussion 18.30 - 20.00 light dinner in hotel ============ Day 2 - 11th of September (Thuesday) 06.30 - 07.30 b'fast in hotel 08.30 - 10.00 discussion 10.30 - 11.30 visit old town of Olsztyn 12.00 - 14.00 lunch in Olsztyn Old Town restaurant. rest 16.00 - 18.00 discussion 18.30 - 20.00 light diner in hotel ============= Day 3 - 12th of September (Wednesday) 06.30 - 07.30 b'f 08.00 - 11.00 excursion to forest. Kierzbun horse farm. Walks in the forest. 12.00 - 14.00 typical Polish meal in Polish tourist resort farmhouse style in Kierzbun. 15.00 - coming back to the hotel 16.00 - 18.00 discussion in hotel 18.30 - light dinner in hotel ============================= Day 4 - 13th of September (Thursday) 06.30 - 07.30 b'f 08.30 - 10.00 discussion 10.00 - 11.30 walk around the lake, rest 11.30 - 13.30 lunch buffet in hotel rest 16.00 - 18.00 discussion 18.30 - 20.00 light dinner ============================= Day 5 - 14th of September (Friday) 06.30 - 07.30 b'f 08.30 - 10.00 discussion 10.00 - 11.30 excursion to the Dadaj lake, touristic resort. 11.30 - 13.30 lunch in hotel by the lake. rest in this resort 16.00 - 18.00 discussion in Dadaj Hotel restaurant. 18.30 - 19:30 light dinner in Dadj Hotel. 19:30 - Coming back to Olsztyn Hotel 20:45 - rest in a hotel. ============================= Day 6 - 15th of September (Saturday) 06.30 - 07.30 b'f 08.30 - 10.30 moring discussions with polish friends in a hotel conferency room. 11.30 - 13.30 lunch in hotel rest 16.00 - 18.00 afternoon disccusions with polish friends. 18.30 - 19:30 light dinner. =========================== Day 7 - 16th of September (Sunday) One day excursion to very beautiful curort by the beautiful river. 06.30 - 07.30 b'f 08.30 - Setting off to Krutyn, beautiful turistic curort in a heart of Mazury(region of Poland with a lot of lakes and typical colder forests) 10:30 - 11:30 - Dhamma discussions, by the beutiful river. Very quiet there. Or if weather not good inside the restaurant by the river with view on the flowing river. 11.45 - 12:45 lunch in Hotel Mazur-Syrenka restaurant. rest. Walking into a befutiful forest. 15:00 - Coming back to Olsztyn hotel. 17.00 - 18.30 afternoon disccusions. 18:30 - 19:30 lighter dinner in hotel. =================== Day 8 -17th of September (Monday) 6:30-7:30 b'fast in the hotel. Setting off to Warsaw airport. =================== #125649 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] packing lists. nilovg Dear Sarah, What an exciting story, I looked at the link. I can't help liking stories, dreams. Nina. Op 24-jul-2012, om 4:25 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > As I got ready first thing this morning to swim out with a group of > friends in our pink caps on a rather cold, grey and wet winter > morning, we spotted a huge whale with her calf in the bay. #125650 From: "Alberto" Date: Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:49 pm Subject: Re: arammana paccaya sprlrt Hi Lukas, > L: But if we must render the most accurate meaning for citta, its characteristic what it will be? that which thinks of, that knows an object, that what experience? Of course only panna can actually know (pajaanati) the meaning of a reality, avijja can't, and yet citta/vinnana arising with avijja knows the object (vijaanati), even realities, two different verbs for knowing, highlighting their difference and helping to avoid mixing up panna with avijja. > L: In case of arammanapaccaya, the visible object (base) conditions cakkhuvi~n~nanadhatu tamsampayutta dhammaa. So it's the visible object, the vana color that conditions seeing consciousness associated with other dhammas, cetasikas, like phassa. So in the case of arammana paccaya do u think this is mainly cakkhuvi~n~nana dhatu mainly or only conditioned by visible object? All cetasikas arising with citta experience the same object, but only citta is the faculty (manindriya) overseeing this process, the leader, like eye-sense (cakkhupasaada) is another faculty overseeing seeing, along with cakkhuvinnana, manindriya again. Sanna remembers the object, phassa contacts it, vedana (another faculty) feels it...; they must also be conditioned by it. Alberto #125651 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:55 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 5, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, The sutta then speaks about the third watch of the night during which he realized the four noble Truths. He who had listened to the teachings of previous Buddhas and had accumulated mindfulness and understanding during countless lives must have cultivated satipahna also during the third watch of that night. While sitting under the Bodhi-tree he must have been mindful of all realities such as visible object, seeing, sound, hearing, hardness, softness, feelings and other phenomena. Only thus could he have attained enlightenment. For us too, mindfulness and understanding of nma and rpa appearing now is the sure way to enlightenment. The sutta continues: Then with the mind composed... fixed, immovable, I directed my mind to the destruction of the cankers. I understood as it really is: This is dukkha, this is the arising of dukkha, this is the stopping of dukkha, this is the course leading to the stopping of dukkha. I understood as it really is: These are the cankers, this is the arising of the cankers, this is the stopping of the cankers, this is the course leading to the stopping of the cankers. Knowing this thus, seeing thus, my mind was freed from the canker of sense-pleasures, and my mind was freed from the canker of becoming, and my mind was freed from the canker of ignorance. In freedom the knowledge came to me: I am freed; and I comprehended: Destroyed is birth, brought to a close is the Brahma-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or such. This, brahman, was the third knowledge attained by me in the last watch of the night; ignorance was dispelled, knowledge arose, darkness was dispelled, light arose, even as I abided diligent, ardent, self-resolute. Done is what was to be done we just read. The Bodhisatta had done all that had to be done in order to become a Sammsambuddha who could through his teaching of Dhamma help others to be freed from birth. He really had done his utmost in order to attain the goal for which he had lived as a Bodhisatta during aeons. How had he discovered the four noble Truths? He had seen the conditions for the arising of all phenomena and had understood how the cycle of birth and death is conditioned by ignorance and craving. He had seen how there can be an end to birth, old age, sickness and death: through making an end to ignorance and craving. He who thoroughly knew all conditioned dhammas realized at the moment of enlightenment the unconditioned dhamma: nibbna. ****** Nina. #125652 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:41 am Subject: Re: Kenh1 jonoabb Hi Rob E (125645) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: You are taking as your starting point a conventional action that you characterise as either a kusala or an akusala one. > > > > But the teaching given by the Buddha does not concern itself with the conventional nature of actions. It talks about kusala kamma patha and akusala kamma patha. Kamma (literally, `action') is declared to be the momentary mental factor of cetana (intention). > > RE: The Buddha often does not make such a distinction, but talks about the taking of life, the existence of beings and the future experience of a murderer in future lives, without making such a distinction. > =============== J: Talk about killing, stealing and sexual misconduct, etc, is, to my understanding, talk about akusala kamma patha and not about conventional notions of the those things (although there may of course be a fair degree of correspondence between the two). > =============== > RE: I think what you're saying is that 'murder' cannot be confined to just one or two particular examples, not that 'murder' as a general rule cannot be connected to the dhammas of murderous intent and action. I think the general rule can be drawn, rather than the specifics, since they are multifarious. But murder is murder, whether by knife or phone. There's no distinction there in intention or in the fact that an action has to be committed to carry out the murderous intent and create complete kamma patha. A 'being' is murdered at the end of the process, and the death citta appears for that 'being.' > =============== J: Perhaps it would be useful at this stage if you could re-state the general rule you are proposing. I was not aware you had suggested a general rule that would apply equally to murder committed by plunging a knife into the victim and to murder committed by speaking on the phone. I would like to hear your general rule again. > =============== > RE: [M]y understanding of cittas, not just rupas, is that they do not arise randomly, but in some sort of orderly relationship. Not to say that a particular moment of this or that many not arise, but in general for murder to be carried out there has to be an organized preponderance of akusala cetana that is sustained or repeated enough to carry out the completion of kamma patha. > =============== J: Yes, a preponderance of akusala cetana; but there may also be a sprinkling of kusala. I would like to hear how your general rule allows for that. > =============== > RE: I think the preponderance of moments must be akusala or the akusala kamma patha would be interrupted. It can't take place in a single moment, or a few random moments. There has to be a concerted movement towards kamma patha, or it would not take place. > =============== J: Again, how does your general rule allow for the moments of kusala in amongst the akusala? > =============== > RE: Having a moment of remorse or awareness arise that is not strong enough to interrupt the pattern of akusala is not a breaking of the rule, but an exception to the rule. You can't have a steady horse-beating if there are not many akusala mental states arising to support the beating. I think that the fact that a bit of kusala can be interspersed is pretty much beside the point. > =============== J: If the fact that kusala mind states can be interspersed among strong akusala mind states is beside the point, then I must have missed your point :-)). So is your point that an action that is clearly one of, for example, deliberate killing is bound to be accompanied by a preponderance of akusala cittas? Perhaps you could explain the significance of this observation to the development of the path. Jon #125653 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:43 am Subject: Re: Kenh1 jonoabb Hi Rob E (125647) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: The doing of a conventionally unwholesome deed is not, as a matter of doctrine, a bar to the development of the path. > > > > In practice, of course, those who are interested in the development of the path are also likely to be interested in developing kusala of all kinds in their daily life. > > RE: Do you think that a butcher who spends most of his day chopping off chickens' heads has the same chance to develop the path as someone who is doing something not involving killing? Perhaps so...? > =============== J: There is no required minimum level of sila in order for an understanding of dhammas to begin to develop. Everyone starts from where they are. So for example, if a person who earns his living by slaughtering chickens hears the teachings on the development of the path for the first time in his present life and, by virtue of understanding accumulated in previous lives, understands what he has heard, his current occupation would be no obstacle to the arising of awareness of dhammas. Jon #125654 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:03 am Subject: Re: packing lists. kenhowardau Hi Sarah, --- > S: ... For an hour she swam amongst us, underneath us, herding us together ever so gently. Extraordinary. She must have been about the size of a greyhound bus and so very gentle and playful, circling around and coming closer everytime we moved away to give her more space. ... --- KH: That's about the most extraordinary adventure I can imagine. You were very brave. I have always known you and your pink cap friends were brave, but deliberately swimming with wales in the ocean must take nerves of steel. A few years ago I was sitting on my surfboard when two wales quietly swam by. It was a great thrill to be within thirty metres of such huge wild animals, but there but there was no way I was getting any closer! ----- > S: Was it just visible object that was seen? Yes, just like now. ----- KH: Now you want us to swim up to a conditioned dhamma and see there is no self! No way! Bring back the wales! :-) Ken H #125655 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:05 am Subject: What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: I think I've already covered this. Moments of kusala can arise in the midst of moments of strong akusala, and vice versa. Hope that's clear enough for you :-)) > > > =============== > > RE: Is it possible for a kusala mental factor to lead one to akusala kamma vipaka? > > =============== > > J: Kusala intention/kamma cannot lead to akusala vipaka. Well we agree on that. ... > J: There cannot be kusala and akusala at precisely the same moment. But the conventional act of killing a chicken spans innumerable citta moments, not all of which may be akusala. I think I already answered this point as well, but I believe that intentional killing will not take place if there is not a preponderance of akusala arising during the course of the act. I think this is obvious. ... > J: Intentionally taking life is akusala kamma patha. If the death of another is caused but the necessary intention is not present (e.g., it happens by accident), then it's not akusala kamma patha. And in that case it's also not murder. Murder is by definition intentional killing. There's no argument that accidental death has got the same kamma as murder, if any. > > =============== > > RE: The act of purposely taking another's life is always wrong according to the Buddha. So, a certain person may be very nice and happy and kill chickens for a living, but the Buddha would not consider that kusala. > > =============== > > J: Agreed. The mental moments that constitute any part of the deliberate taking of life would not be kusala (but there could be kusala moments intermingled). I don't see the significance of kusala moments intermingled. I understand the point, but surely it takes many akusala moments arising with accumulations of hatred and murderous intent to cause murderous kamma patha to be completed. I doubt there's any argument about that. I agree that there is a significance, not re. kamma patha, but re. awakening, with regard to kusala arising in the midst of akusala. It is that kusala that pops up that may open the possibility of reconsidering akusala actions and taking a different path. > > =============== > > RE: At best it is the result of ignorance, which is akusala. Do you disagree? > > =============== > > J: Ignorance and dosa would be involved. > > > =============== ... > J: There does not have to be speaking the truth in order to constitute right speech; restraint from wrong speech suffices, if at that moment the kusala mental factor (that is given the name "right speech") arises. I would not agree that "right speech" refers solely to the corresponding mental factor. Both sutta and commentary that I have seen [not that I've seen everything by a long shot] are very clear that kamma patha has three levels - mental, speech and physical action, and that without physical expression one doesn't have kamma patha. So kamma patha of speech, I believe it follows, must be completed through the speech act for it to constitute full right speech - the kamma patha of speech, and if the mental factor arises but is not acted upon, it is not completed right speech. There are many instances when positive speech will have an effect on a conversation, for instance, and perhaps lead to 'hearing the Dhamma' or some other kusala result, and if only the mental factor arises and no speech takes place, the "Right Speech" will not have its positive impact, though it may be nice for the arising citta to enjoy... Buddha spoke against gossip, dissension and other actual *acts of speech* that would have an effect on the community, and promoted truthful speech and speaking of the Dhamma, among other kusala acts of speech. It would be an enormous stretch to suggest that such varieties of speech that affect groups of beings [monks for instance] should only be thought of as mental factors, and the physical expression that causes actual dissension or teaching and awareness to take place, spreading of Dhamma, etc., to somehow be inconsequential. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - #125656 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:26 am Subject: Kusala and akusala activities (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Hi Rob E (125645) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > > > > "Mind is the forerunner of states [J: dhammas]. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox. > > > > > > > > Mind is the forerunner of states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, affection follows one, even as one's shadow that never leaves." > > > > > > RE: A "forerunner" creates what comes after it. Kusala mental states are the forerunner of kusala speech and actions. That is my point. > > > =============== > > > > J: Note that the text does not speak of kusala or akusala actions. It talks about acting with kusala/akusala mental states. > > RE: A forerunner is not an accompaniment. It is that which comes before and leads to what comes next. Intent leads to like action, for instance, in many cases. > =============== J: I don't think the interpretation of `forerunner' you give here is the proper reading in the context. The elaboration given by the text itself is that of `speaking or acting with a pure/impure mind'. It doesn't talk about intent leading to action in the sense of first resolving to do something and then doing the act. > =============== > > J: The idea of the mental state "infiltrating and influencing the conventional action" is not part of the teaching of the Buddha. > > RE: It's also not the teaching, as far as I can tell, to say that actions in the world have nothing to do with the path, and only mental states do. The Buddha never said that and he taught on many occasions the specific activities to engage in or avoid, not just mental states. You can't take all of those definite pronouncements about actions and lay all of that off onto mental states, if indeed you want to take note of all of the teachings. > =============== J: I suspect that the `specific activities to engage in or avoid' taught by the Buddha are kamma patha and not conventional activities. Perhaps we should look at some actual sutta passages that you have in mind. As far as the development of the path is concerned, the important thing is that what we take for conventional actions are nothing other than namas and rupas, and it is namas and rupas that are to be known, regardless of the ethical nature of the action currently being performed. This of course does not mean that we ignore the Buddha's teaching on the value of kusala kamma patha and the dangers of akusala kamma patha; it simply means that we do not confuse kusala of the level of sila with kusala of the level of satipatthana. > =============== > > J: In terms of the dhammas spoken of by the Buddha, the only difference between the conventional action of washing the dishes with kusala mental state (unlikely, but theoretically possible, I suppose!) and washing the dishes with akusala mental state is a difference in the ethical quality of the citta and accompanying mental factors at the moments of kusala; the other arising dhammas are the same. > > RE: Maybe so for washing the dishes, but certainly not for beating one's horse. > =============== J: Whether beating a horse or gently grooming a horse, it is the awareness of presently arising dhammas that constitutes the development of the path. The ethical quality of the conventional action being undertaken is irrelevant, in the sense that there is no principle of Dhamma which says that there is more likely to be awareness of a kusala citta (or during a conventionally `wholesome' action) than of an akusala one (or during a conventionally unwholesome action). (Again, this is not to suggest that kusala actions are not important; they are, but kusala sila does not constitute the development of the path.) Jon #125657 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:12 am Subject: Re: packing lists. philofillet Hi Sarah, Ken H and all > > S: Was it just visible object that was seen? Yes, just like now. > ----- > > KH: Now you want us to swim up to a conditioned dhamma and see there is no self! No way! Bring back the wales! :-) Maybe Alex can add swimming with a whale to his favourite chestnuts such as driving into a tree and slamming your head into a door frame. Oh wait, you *did* do it....never mind. phil #125658 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:28 am Subject: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (3) philofillet Dear group, Chapter 7 of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket continued: "It seems that we are all living together in the same world. However, in reality all the different ruupas (material phenomena) that appear through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysend and mind, all those different phenomena, could not appear and be of such importance if there were no citta, the element that experiences them. Since citta experiences the objects that appear throug the sense-doors and through the mind-door, the world of each person is ruled by his citta. Which world is better: the world where a great deal of wholesomeness has been accumulated, so that kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity can arise, or the world of hatred, anger and displeasure? Different people may meet the same person and know the same things about him, but the world of each one of them will evolve with loving-kindness or with aversion, depending on the power of the citta that has accumulated different inclinations in the case of each person." (51) (end of passage) Phil adds: Which world is better? The world of wholesomeness of course. But the most important thing is to understand whatever reality arises. A. Sujin asked a kind of dangerous question above, because people who misunderstand Dhamma might believe that the point is to rush towards kusala without understanding that if kusala has not been accumulated, kusala will not result. Any intentional effort to have kusala will result in akusala through lobha and moha rooted cittas. We have to wisely understand whatever reality arises, if we run away from akusala we are just running deeper into akusala. Wisely understanding akusala is in itself a moment of kusala, that is the only way kusala can develop, through understanding. This is the sort of subtle point that made the Buddha hesitate to teach in the world because he knew, even thousands of years ago, that his teaching went against the way of the world now. How much more now in the age of personal accomplishment and striving for self fulfillment though 40 day retreats and so on? We are lucky to have a teacher who gets at the subtlety of Dhamma... I'm off to Canada, this series will continue in a few weeks, I won't have my book with me. phil #125659 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:45 am Subject: Re: packing lists. truth_aerator Hi Phil, >P:Maybe Alex can add swimming with a whale to his favourite chestnuts >such as driving into a tree and slamming your head into a door frame. >==================================== No matter what one says, we all behave as if external conceptual objects are really there. To try to act as if external "conceptual" objects don't exist and cannot be objects of the mind IMHO, is wrong and is constantly contradicted with every step and every usage of this "non existent" phenomena... With best wishes, Alex #125660 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:05 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland epsteinrob Hi Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "azita" wrote: > > Hallo RobE, Sarah, > > > > >Gee, I wish I could join you - would be a great opportunity as you say. My schedule won't allow it again this time, so I will have to aim for a future occasion in Thailand, when the vipaka is lined up correctly. Unless I can get my cousin to reschedule his wedding... > > azita: wish I could join in also Rob, however, its so far away from the land of Oz and besides, I have a ticket for Bkk for Sept26 - o well. > Cheap tickets that cannot be changed. Well, I guess we have to console ourselves that dhammas are wherever we are - so... But it would be nice to be there...! Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - #125661 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:18 pm Subject: What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: To my understanding, when the texts speak of killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse, etc., they are speaking of the akusala kamma patha of that name and not of conventional actions that may appear to correspond to those akusala kamma patha. I can understand how sexual desire or intention could be a mental state, but I do not see how "unlawful sexual intercourse," which is a physical kamma patha, could possibly be reduced to a mental state alone. I understand that you see it that way, but can you explain how "unlawful sexual intercourse" arises as a dhamma rather than as an act between conventional bodies in the world? Are you saying that the Buddha's admonition against stealing is really *only* an admonition against the intention to steal, a mental state, and has nothing at all to do with the taking of an object that does not belong to you? Are you saying that if the Buddha says that one should not associate with the wrong kind of people, and one should not play dice, that the "playing of dice" and the hanging around with the wrong people, are mental states and not actual conventional phenomena that occur in the world? If so, please explain to me how 'playing dice' can arise as a mental state? And please explain to me how the "taking of alcohol [other than for medicinal purposes]' is really *only* referring to a mental state. ... > J: Regarding, "when known unwholesome actions are present, one can know that they have been caused by unwholesome mental states", that `knowledge' is in fact a deduction based on a characterisation of the conventional action as an `unwholesome' one; and a deduction is a kind of thinking. Whereas the development of the path involves knowledge gained by direct experience of presently arisen dhammas. Since we are talking about the understanding of what is kusala and akusala and how it relates or does not relate to conventional actions, I don't think it is possible for any of this conversation to reference direct experience of dhammas. Yet we are talking about what one's understanding is. To say it is a deduction I think misses the connection that is clearly established, for instance, between akusala cetana and akusala physical kamma patha, such as the 'killing of a being' which is necessary for kamma patha to be completed. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #125662 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] packing lists. epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > >________________________________ > > From: sarah abbott > As I got ready first thing this morning to swim out with a group of friends in our pink caps on a rather cold, grey and wet winter morning, we spotted a huge whale with her calf in the bay. We swam closer and the mother swam towards us. For an hour she swam amongst us, underneath us, herding us together ever so gently. Extraordinary. She must have been about the size of a greyhound bus and so very gentle and playful, circling around and coming closer everytime we moved away to give her more space. > > > >Was it just visible object that was seen? Yes, just like now. > .... > > S: Here's a link for anyone interested: > http://pacificjules.typepad.com/pacific-jules/2012/07/24072012-a-whale-of-a-day-\ .html Wow, what a beauty that big guy is. Can't believe you got to play with him for an hour! Maybe just "visual object" but an awfully big one! Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #125663 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:31 pm Subject: Re: packing lists. sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > KH: That's about the most extraordinary adventure I can imagine. You were very brave. I have always known you and your pink cap friends were brave, but deliberately swimming with wales in the ocean must take nerves of steel. .... S: Actually the whale (and her calf) swam over to us and stayed with us, so very gently. She didn't want us to leave! In a few papers and on TV today....even in an English paper - a nice pic here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/picturesoftheday/9422892/Pictur\ es-of-the-day-24-July-2012.html?frame=2285928 ... > > S: Was it just visible object that was seen? Yes, just like now. > ----- > > KH: Now you want us to swim up to a conditioned dhamma and see there is no self! No way! Bring back the wales! :-) .... S: So lovely to be able to swim with whales and develop understanding at even these times.....still just 6 door-ways. A group of us was being interviewed by a TV reporter this morning - the others were talking about it as one of the greatest highlights in their lives and so on..... I was thinking, highlight of attachment, but didn't wish to spoil the party, so kept pretty quiet. Other swimmers who had missed out were distraught.....again they weren't interested in hearing about visible object and attachment. Just different dreams.... I'd woken up worrying about the water leaks in our apartment, half-heartedly gone off to swim in the cold and rain and then had these very different dreams about whales.... No one can stop seeing, hearing and the various kinds of dreaming which are conditioned from moment to moment. No one at all.....No one chooses to swim with or without a whale to be brave or not brave....just more dhammas, more elements in samsara....round and round. Metta Sarah =========== #125664 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:33 pm Subject: "More kusala means less murders" (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Rob E > > (125586) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > > > > > RE: Rob K.'s statement that "more kusala cittas should lead to less murder" sort of summarizes the point in question. If we could look at that, perhaps that would be a good place to clarify the issue. > > > > > > =============== > > > > > > > > J: The Visuddhimagga (Ch XXIII) gives, as the first among the `benefits in developing understanding', the removal of various defilements. It explains this as follows: > > > > > > "2. Herein, it should be understood that one of the benefits of the mundane development of understanding is the removal of the various defilements beginning with [mistaken] view of individuality. This starts with the delimitation of mentality-materiality. Then one of the benefits of the supramundane development of understanding is the removal, at the path moment, of the various defilements beginning with the fetters." > > > > > > Note that the first defilement to be removed is wrong view, and that this starts with understanding the difference between nama and rupa. > > > > RE: I think I am a little confused as to how this applies to the current discussion. Could you make it a little more clear for me? > > =============== > > J: It's a comment on the proposition that "more kusala cittas should lead to less murder". > > The passage explains that when there is the development of the path, the akusala that is first diminished is the wrong view of self; and that development begins with the understanding of the difference between namas and rupas. > > And as we know, the development proceeds from there to an understanding of dhammas as anicca, dukkha and anatta. > > It is when dhammas are more clearly known as conditioned phenomena that the deeply entrenched idea of self is broken down. > > In short, with the development of the path there may or may not be less gross akusala in one's daily life; but there will certainly be a clearer understanding of dhammas and less attachment to the idea of self. > > Hoping that explains the relevance of the passage to the current discussion. Yes, I understand what you are saying now and how it may be relevant. However, I think that as enough kusala develops to warrant any interest in development of the path, the likelihood of committing murder probably falls close to zero. Have you met any Dhamma students lately who are in jail for murder? I'm not sure if there are any, but I doubt it. So while the explicit development of the path may take a while to get around to ending defilements, the kusala involved in any degree of the path is the opposite sort of accumulations from those that would lead to murder. Would you disagree with this? I'm not saying it's impossible or that there is no intense akusala arising for someone interested in Dhamma, just that the accumulations are going to be generally quite different. I mean, I consider myself just a tiny baby on the path, but it would take an awfully horrifying situation to get me anywhere close to seriously harming someone. I might react violently in self-defense if someone were trying to kill me, but I'm aware enough, even as a tiny baby, not to want to do anything really terrible, even when I [very occasionally, ha ha] get angry. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #125665 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:36 pm Subject: "More kusala, less murder" II (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: The question, at its simplest, is whether akusala cittas can arise among, or intermingled with (but of course not at exactly the same instant as), cittas that are kusala. > > To my understanding, the answer is certainly yes. > > For example, swatting a pesky mosquito while listening intently to a teaching on Dhamma :-)) Not to quibble, but I think it takes an awfully long spate [in dhamma terms] of akusala dhammas arising to lead to the kamma patha of killing a mosquito, though before and after may be very nice spates of kusala... In other words, I see the pattern of cittas as being more significant in what actions are produced than the single cittas as if they arose in total isolation. They certainly arise one at a time, but they are not isolated in kind from those that arise before and after. Something happens to cause the direction to deviate, but they do not arise as only single isolated random events, do they? For a mosquito to be swatted, what necessary sorts of dhammas must arise consistently enough to complete the act? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - #125666 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Wasteland epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Rob E & all, > > >________________________________ > > From: Robert E > > >Thank you, I would certainly love to come. I don't think it will work out - but I will take a good look at it again... > .... > S: The latest itinerary as organised by Lukas below. Everyone's keeping him busy with changes of plans and he's busy negotiating with hotel managers and so on. Nothing is too much trouble for Lukas and no talk of depressions or addictions from him these days:-))) > > Metta > > Sarah > ********** Thank you - it is nice to see the itinerary in any case. Sounds like a wonderful trip! Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - #125667 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:44 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: If the fact that kusala mind states can be interspersed among strong akusala mind states is beside the point, then I must have missed your point :-)). > > So is your point that an action that is clearly one of, for example, deliberate killing is bound to be accompanied by a preponderance of akusala cittas? Perhaps you could explain the significance of this observation to the development of the path. My point from the beginning has been that the choices and carrying out of conventional activities is part of the path, not separate from the path, and that the Buddha's prohibitions and admonitions against killing, wrong livelihood, wrong action, wrong speech, etc., are against activities in the world as well as the akusala mental states that would lead to such choices. In addition I have been trying to show that akusala mental states lead to negative actions in the conventional world, and that they work together rather than separately. The significance to the path is that if that is the case, one must watch what they do in the world and see that as part of the path in addition to understanding mental states that arise. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - #125668 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:01 pm Subject: Re: arammana paccaya szmicio Hi Alberto, > Of course only panna can actually know (pajaanati) the meaning of a reality, avijja can't, and yet citta/vinnana arising with avijja knows the object (vijaanati), even realities, two different verbs for knowing, highlighting their difference and helping to avoid mixing up panna with avijja. L: So the goal is less avijja in life isnt it? vijjaanati, this is the first time I hear that word, can u say more Alberto? sa~n~njanati, or something like that I come across, this is I think wrong conceiving realities, like in first sutta of majjhima nikaya. There are two words, abhiny.., and pari.. something like this, this is in patisambidhamagga and first sutta of majjhima, what is a difference if u know what i mean? > All cetasikas arising with citta experience the same object, but only citta is the faculty (manindriya) overseeing this process, the leader, like eye-sense (cakkhupasaada) is another faculty overseeing seeing, along with cakkhuvinnana, manindriya again. > Sanna remembers the object, phassa contacts it, vedana (another faculty) feels it...; > they must also be conditioned by it. L: manindriya, the faculty of experiencing, cakkhu passadha ruppa faculty of eye. But manindriya, is more closer to manayatana, the faculty of each citta experiencing, or more to the mind-doorway? Best wishes Lukas #125669 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:07 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland szmicio Dear azita, Rob E, and all > > azita: wish I could join in also Rob, however, its so far away from the land of Oz and besides, I have a ticket for Bkk for Sept26 - o well. > > Cheap tickets that cannot be changed. > > Well, I guess we have to console ourselves that dhammas are wherever we are - so... But it would be nice to be there...! L: This is kusala vipaka, to hear the Dhamma. And the javana that follows. Also decisions, plans, faith, worries..this are jaavanas. We think we can come, or we dont come...we think of..but no one can control the vipaka, like the enviroment that one lives, friends, cooming across dhamma. What i can say is just come. Best wishes Lukas #125670 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (3) nilovg Dear Phil, Thank you for the passage. Just a few remarks. Op 25-jul-2012, om 3:28 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > A. Sujin asked a kind of dangerous question above, because people > who misunderstand Dhamma might believe that the point is to rush > towards kusala without understanding that if kusala has not been > accumulated, kusala will not result. Any intentional effort to have > kusala will result in akusala through lobha and moha rooted cittas. > We have to wisely understand whatever reality arises, if we run > away from akusala we are just running deeper into akusala. ------- N: I agree with you. But A. Sujin would at the same time help people to see that all the perfections are indispensable for the attainment of enlightenment. Sure, that is very far off, but kusala can be accumulated. Remember the sutta: if this would not be possible, I would not tell you to do this. This morning I heard Kh sujin telling people about the perfections, and especially she mentioned mettaa. As to renunciation, she said that through satipa.t.thaana there can be detachment, from the self and from all akusala. Have a very good journey to Canada. I know you have mixed feelings, but I hope it will be fruitfull, with Dhamma. Nina. #125671 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:29 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 5, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, During our pilgrimage we paid respect at the place of the Buddhas enlightenment. Adjoining the Bodhi-tree is a temple, built on top of a much older structure. It is said that the actual place of enlightenment was where now this temple is located. The original Bodhi-tree was destroyed, but from one of the roots grew a new sprout which has become the Bodhi-tree we see today. One can see pilgrims of different nationalities worshipping at the Bodhi-tree. Tibetans walk around the tree with their rosaries at all hours of the day and night, reciting Om mani padme hum. We walked around the tree thinking of the Buddhas words to be mindful also when walking; the memory of his words at this place could be a condition for mindfulness of different nmas and rpas. Through the development of the Path he taught we can prove that the Buddha really attained enlightenment. We paid respect by chanting texts under the tree and later on we had Dhamma discussion. Leaves were falling down on us and we collected them. Around the Bodhi-tree small monuments have been erected commemorating how the Buddha spent the first weeks after his enlightenment. After he had become an omniscient Buddha he did not move away from the Bodhi-tree, but he stayed in the same position, seated cross-legged under the tree, for another week. We read in the Atthaslin(Expositor 13, Introductory Discourse) that after having penetrated all dhammas he thought: To this has my vision pierced! See, even to this Law have I reached, who seeking and inquiring for more than a hundred thousand ages, for over four incalculable periods, here seated in this cross- legged posture (as on a throne) have expelled every conceivable corruption. And he sat on the throne for yet seven days, reflecting on the Law he had penetrated.... ****** Nina #125672 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:42 pm Subject: Whatever happens has to happen. nilovg Dear friends, Transcription of no. 16 of the 85 short talks on Dhamma: whatever happens has to happen: < Whatever happens has to happen. When something has happend we know that it has conditions for its occurring, even at this moment. If there is firm understanding of Dhamma and of cause and effect, of kamma that is cause and of vipaaka that is the result of kamma, can we be troubled? People tell many stories about events that occurred to them, but what happened had to happen. We cannot escape results, such as sickness occurring because of having eaten poison. Someone who understands Dhamma is steadfast when akusala kamma produces result. When we have more understanding of Dhamma, of cause and result, we can gradually become detached from the idea of self. There is no self at all. Seeing is seeing, it arises and falls away, and it is the same with hearing, thinking or happiness. They arise and then disappear completely, there is nothing left of them. They are only elements, dhammas. They arise because there are conditions for their arising and then they fall away. --------- Nina. #125673 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:59 pm Subject: Conventional activities as part of the path (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Hi Rob E (125667) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: If the fact that kusala mind states can be interspersed among strong akusala mind states is beside the point, then I must have missed your point :-)). > > > > So is your point that an action that is clearly one of, for example, deliberate killing is bound to be accompanied by a preponderance of akusala cittas? Perhaps you could explain the significance of this observation to the development of the path. > > RE: My point from the beginning has been that the choices and carrying out of conventional activities is part of the path, not separate from the path, and that the Buddha's prohibitions and admonitions against killing, wrong livelihood, wrong action, wrong speech, etc., are against activities in the world as well as the akusala mental states that would lead to such choices. > =============== J: Regarding "the carrying out of conventional activities is part of the path", you seem to be saying that kusala of the level of sila is part of the path. Whereas to my understanding, only kusala of the level of awareness/vipassana bhavana constitutes path moment. Regarding "the Buddha's admonitions against killing, wrong livelihood, wrong action, wrong speech, etc., are against activities in the world as well as the akusala mental states that would lead to such choices", yes, most akusala kamma patha involves acts through body or speech doors, i.e., is not purely mental. No disagreement. But again, this is a matter of sila rather than bhavana. > =============== > RE: In addition I have been trying to show that akusala mental states lead to negative actions in the conventional world, and that they work together rather than separately. The significance to the path is that if that is the case, one must watch what they do in the world and see that as part of the path in addition to understanding mental states that arise. > =============== J: Regarding, "akusala mental states lead to negative actions in the conventional world", agreed; but more importantly, akusala mental states lead to the commission of akusala kamma patha. Regarding, "The significance to the path is that one must watch what they do in the world and see that as part of the path in addition to understanding mental states that arise", I do not understand the development of the path to involve `watching what one does in the world'. I think that avoiding akusala acts of body and speech is part of the sila, but not part of the bhavana, taught by the Buddha. Or do you have in mind some other kind of `watching'? You might find interesting the explanation by Bhikkhu Bodhi, from one of the introductions in his anthology "In the Buddha's Words", that I've copied at the end of this message (although I disagree with his reference to "other aids to enlightenment"). Jon << << << The word "kamma" literally means action, but technically it refers to volitional action. As the Buddha says: "It is volition (cetanaa) that I call kamma; for having willed (cetayitvaa), one acts by body, speech and mind." (AN III 415) Kamma thus denotes deeds that originate from volition. Such volition may remain purely mental, generating kamma that occurs as thoughts, plans, and desires; or it may come to expression outwardly through manifest bodily and verbal actions. ... On the basis of its ethical quality, the Buddha distinguishes kamma into two major categories: the unwholesome (akusala) and the wholesome (kusala). Unwholesome kamma is action that is spiritually detrimental to the agent, morally reprehensible, and potentially productive of an unfortunate rebirth and painful results. The criterion for judging an action to be unwholesome is its underlying motives, the three "roots" from which it springs. There are three unwholesome roots: greed, hatred and delusion. ... Wholesome kamma, on the other hand, is action that is spiritually beneficial and morally commendable; it is action that ripens in happiness and good fortune. Its underlying motives are the three wholesome roots: nongreed, nonhatred and nondelusion ... Whereas actions springing from the unwholesome roots are necessarily bound to the world of repeated birth and death, actions springing from the wholesome roots may be of two kinds, mundane and world-transcending. The mundane (lokiya) wholesome actions have the potential to produce a fortunate rebirth and pleasant results within the round of rebirths. The world-transcending or supramundane (lokuttara) wholesome actions -- namely, the kamma generated by developing the Noble Eightfold Path and the other aids to enlightenment -- lead to enlightenment and to liberation from the round of rebirths. This is the kamma that dismantles the entire process of kammic causation. >> >> >> #125674 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:23 am Subject: Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > RE: Do you think that a butcher who spends most of his day chopping off chickens' heads has the same chance to develop the path as someone who is doing something not involving killing? Perhaps so...? > > =============== > > J: There is no required minimum level of sila in order for an understanding of dhammas to begin to develop. Everyone starts from where they are. > > So for example, if a person who earns his living by slaughtering chickens hears the teachings on the development of the path for the first time in his present life and, by virtue of understanding accumulated in previous lives, understands what he has heard, his current occupation would be no obstacle to the arising of awareness of dhammas. I don't disagree that such a moment could arise, and if it did, would not be stopped by his occupation. But if the man had that moment of understanding would he then continue to slaughter chickens? And if he did so, would he continue to develop kusala? It seems to me that a butcher who entered the path would either stop killing chickens or have an ongoing conflict. I don't think the Buddha ever proposed that the blind monk who stepped on the caterpillars would have been fine if he had stepped on the caterpillars purposely. And if someone keeps killing chickens intentionally after hearing the teachings, that would not be kusala, would it? Don't the teachings say to abstain from killing? On the other hand we all have various akusala arising all the time and all do actions we are not especially proud of. I agree with you that does not stop anyone from being on the path, although I think it may prevent progress past a certain point until such habits are dropped. Do you disagree? Can one go on killing chickens past the 1st, 2nd, 3rd stage of insight? Can the killing go on forever until one reaches the level where killing is impossible? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - #125675 From: "Alberto" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:00 am Subject: Re: arammana paccaya sprlrt Hi Lukas, > L: So the goal is less avijja in life isnt it? vijjaanati, this is the first time I hear that word, can u say more Alberto? sa~n~njanati, or something like that I come across, this is I think wrong conceiving realities, like in first sutta of majjhima nikaya. > There are two words, abhiny.., and pari.. something like this, this is in patisambidhamagga and first sutta of majjhima, what is a difference if u know what i mean? vijaanaati > vinnana (to cognize > consciousness) pajaanaati > panna (to know/to understand > knowledge/understanding) sanjaanaati > . . . . . . . . . abhijaanaati/abhinneya refers to panna when it arises to know the individual characteristic (sabhaavalakkhana) of a reality; parijaanaati/parinneya . . . . . . . . . . What would you put in place of the dots? Alberto #125676 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (3) philofillet Dear Nina > ------- > N: I agree with you. But A. Sujin would at the same time help people > to see that all the perfections are indispensable for the attainment > of enlightenment. Sure, that is very far off, but kusala can be > accumulated. Ph: But let's not forget that all kusala must be accompanied by alobha. Also, I was trying to google search to find tge term, but the word that means occurence (something like samana? sayama?), many factors must arise for kusala to arise. Remember the sutta: if this would not be possible, I > would not tell you to do this. Ph: Yes, I will never forget hearing Lidewijk (many many times) read this passage with such confidence. But this passage is not saying that we should be content with a slack understanding of what kusala really is, or be comfortable huding from understanding that what we take for kusala is oten or usually accompanied by attachment and is therefore akusala. Truthfulness is a perfection to. The moment we acknowledge that our "kusala" is not kusala is a moment of understanding (kusala.) > This morning I heard Kh sujin telling people about the perfections, > and especially she mentioned mettaa. As to renunciation, she said > that through satipa.t.thaana there can be detachment, from the self > and from all akusala. Ph: Yes, alobha with all kusala, including metta. Not so common as many people like to think but of course I am not saying metta doesn't arise, of course it does, often during the day, with alibha, then a moment later lobha can rush in again (so to speak) or not. And that can be understood. "Every monent can be perfectly instructive", words of Rob K's that I loved, then railed against, and niw love again. Will I rail against them again someday? No way to know. > Have a very good journey to Canada. I know you have mixed feelings, > but I hope it will be fruitfull, with Dhamma. Thanks Nina. These days I have developed many meditation techniques to help make me happy, energetic, peaceful. Many effective machinations and manipulations, rooted in lobha, and they will travel with me. But there are also monents of right understanding, awareness of how kusala can and does arise without my lobha-rooted intention, with detachment, anatta. Then a moment later lobha for the understanding, and understanding of that. Panna works its way very very gradually, its illumination of the events of daily life brightening very gradually, satipatthana has opportunities to arise, the adze handle is worn away very gradually. "What is the shortcut?I want a shortcut!" Tom asked, jokingly. "The shortcut is lobha," answered Ajahn, not a joke anymore... Phil > > > #125677 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:19 pm Subject: Kusala and akusala activities (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > > > Mind is the forerunner of states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, affection follows one, even as one's shadow that never leaves." > > > > > > > > RE: A "forerunner" creates what comes after it. Kusala mental states are the forerunner of kusala speech and actions. That is my point. > > > > =============== > > > > > > J: Note that the text does not speak of kusala or akusala actions. It talks about acting with kusala/akusala mental states. It does not affirm or deny the idea that certain types of actions may be the expression of 'speaking or acting with pure mind.' If one is 'acting with pure mind' that person will not be murdering someone. That would be impossible, would it not? > > RE: A forerunner is not an accompaniment. It is that which comes before and leads to what comes next. Intent leads to like action, for instance, in many cases. > > =============== > > J: I don't think the interpretation of `forerunner' you give here is the proper reading in the context. The elaboration given by the text itself is that of `speaking or acting with a pure/impure mind'. That is confusing to me - please explain how the word "forerunner" refers to a concurrent mental state? In what sense would the word "forerunner" apply to such a situation? "Forerunner" means literally that which comes before and either sets the stage or creates what comes after. Is there a special meaning of "forerunner" that I am missing here? I mean one that makes sense of the meaning of the word. What is the mental state "coming before?" > It doesn't talk about intent leading to action in the sense of first resolving to do something and then doing the act. Well at the same time it doesn't seem to be making any sense that I can understand of the word "forerunner." Does it make sense to you? I mean, if a word is used it must have some meaning. What is the meaning of "forerunner" in this context? If I say that the appearance of John is always the "forerunner" of Edward coming by, there is an association between John showing up first and Edward surely following after. Is "forerunner" not used in that sense here? > > =============== > > > J: The idea of the mental state "infiltrating and influencing the conventional action" is not part of the teaching of the Buddha. > > > > RE: It's also not the teaching, as far as I can tell, to say that actions in the world have nothing to do with the path, and only mental states do. The Buddha never said that and he taught on many occasions the specific activities to engage in or avoid, not just mental states. You can't take all of those definite pronouncements about actions and lay all of that off onto mental states, if indeed you want to take note of all of the teachings. > > =============== > > J: I suspect that the `specific activities to engage in or avoid' taught by the Buddha are kamma patha and not conventional activities. Perhaps we should look at some actual sutta passages that you have in mind. That would involve me finding them. I don't have any at the moment, but I do remember quite clearly that there is a fairly detailed passage about alcohol in one sutta in which the Buddha makes very clear that alcohol for recreational use is not to be done, but that the necessary amount of alcohol in a tincture or remedy that has been medicinally prepared and prescribed is allowable. The conventional context is clear - if a doctor gives you medicine for an illness that happens to have alcohol in it because of its method of preparation, that is fine. It is for a lawful purpose. But if it is done for intoxication, then it is wrong and is not okay. I don't see any way that these conventional situations can be converted to pure mental states. None of it would make any sense in that context. It is clearly an application of Dhamma to conventional activities and substances. Of course the mental state is also involved, and can even be the forerunner, which is perfectly understandable. One will not drink alcohol for intoxication without the attachment, thoughts of drinking, and akusala cetana, etc., that are involved in causing such an action. But the mental state is associated with the action. Akusala kamma patha has its completion in physical action, not in the mere mental state. And that is made clear in the commentaries on kamma patha. They do not just speak of mental states, but of physical completion of the mental intention. Otherwise it is not complete kamma patha. I don't have those commentaries handy, but if you know where we can look at the commentaries on kamma patha and the three levels of expression of kamma patha, I'd love to look at them with you. I have quoted a full chart on kamma patha in the past. Anyway, here is Nyanatiloka, who starts with kamma = kusala or akusala cetana, and then goes on from there: "Kamma...correctly speaking denotes the advantageous and disadvantageous intentions kusala and akusala-cetanā and their concomitant mental properties... These kammical intentions kammacetanā become manifest as advantageous or disadvantageous actions by body kāya-kamma speech vacī-kamma and mind mano-kamma..." So Nyanatiloka acknowledges that such cetana manifests through physical speech and action! Here is Nyanatiloka again: "...intention cetanā o Bhikkhus, is what I call action cetanāham bhikkhave kammam vadāmi for through intention one performs the action by body, speech or mind..." Again, through cetana, one performs the action by body speech or mind. And again, Nyanatiloka speaks of the results of conventional actions that come from akusala cetana, but are produced through speech and body: "The disadvantageous actions are of 3 kinds, conditioned by greed, or hate, or confusion. "Killing... stealing... unlawful sexual intercourse... lying... slandering... rude speech... foolish babble, if practised, carried on, and frequently cultivated, leads to rebirth in hell, or amongst the animals, or amongst the ghosts ... He who kills and is cruel goes either to hell or, if reborn as man, will be short-lived. It would be hard to argue that "foolish babble" is a mental state rather than a type of physical speech and interaction. Likewise, rude speech, lying, slandering only take place as acts of speech about particular individuals in the world. They are not themselves mental states, but the manifestation of akusala cetana through physical speech acts and interactions with others. I don't think it's possible to argue otherwise, is it? > As far as the development of the path is concerned, the important thing is that what we take for conventional actions are nothing other than namas and rupas, and it is namas and rupas that are to be known, regardless of the ethical nature of the action currently being performed. So are we to know "foolish babble" as namas and rupas? That is fine if so. But that is seeing the real dhammas within the speech act, not denying that speech is taking place, whatever rupas that may involve. ... > J: Whether beating a horse or gently grooming a horse, it is the awareness of presently arising dhammas that constitutes the development of the path. The ethical quality of the conventional action being undertaken is irrelevant, in the sense that there is no principle of Dhamma which says that there is more likely to be awareness of a kusala citta (or during a conventionally `wholesome' action) than of an akusala one (or during a conventionally unwholesome action). As I have hypothesized before, I don't think that someone who has a preponderance of akusala is going to have much chance of the sustained moments of kusala necessary to awaken to anything. To resolve that question, we would have to discuss accumulations and tendencies, which I'm happy to do if you feel like it. It's not a matter of an individual kusala citta in my view, which if single, will quickly be swallowed up in the waves of akusala. > (Again, this is not to suggest that kusala actions are not important; they are, but kusala sila does not constitute the development of the path.) I think without some degree of accumulation of kusala and tendency towards more regular arising of kusala, the path is not going to be seen, let alone developed, so I think sila and whatever other kusala may be cultivated may be more important as a supporting condition for understanding than you may be suggesting here. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #125678 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:28 pm Subject: Re: packing lists. epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > A group of us was being interviewed by a TV reporter this morning - the others were talking about it as one of the greatest highlights in their lives and so on..... I was thinking, highlight of attachment, but didn't wish to spoil the party, so kept pretty quiet. Ha ha, that is quite droll. I can see how a Buddhist speaking up at the wrong time could definitely spoil the party. Now back to the dream which is already in progress... Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - #125679 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:34 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland epsteinrob Hi Lukas. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > L: This is kusala vipaka, to hear the Dhamma. And the javana that follows. Also decisions, plans, faith, worries..this are jaavanas. We think we can come, or we dont come...we think of..but no one can control the vipaka, like the enviroment that one lives, friends, cooming across dhamma. What i can say is just come. Thanks, Lukas! It is a nice invitation! Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #125680 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (3) nilovg Dear Phil, Op 26-jul-2012, om 3:20 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Truthfulness is a perfection to. The moment we acknowledge that our > "kusala" is not kusala is a moment of understanding (kusala.) ------ N: Very well said, a good reminder. ------- > > Ph: ... "Every monent can be perfectly instructive", words of Rob > K's that I loved, then railed against, and now love again. Will I > rail against them again someday? No way to know. ------- N: I heard this morning: all the events of life can remind us to develop satipatthaana. ------- Nina. #125681 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:11 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 7, no 8. nilovg Dear friends, According to the Visuddhimagga(Ch XXII, 19-21), those who have attained enlightenment, after the phala-cittas (fruition- consciousness which are the vipkacittas produced by the magga-citta, the path-consciousness) have fallen away, review the path, review fruition, review the defilements abandoned, review the defilements still remaining and review nibbna. The arahat does not review any remaining defielments since they all have been eradicated. Thus, he reviews the path: So this is the path I have come by. He reviews fruition: This is the blessing I have obtained. He reviews the defilements that have been abandoned: These are the defilements abandoned in me. He reviews nibbna: This is the dhamma that has been penetrated by me as object. The Buddha, after his enlightenment, also reviewed his attainments. We read in the Vinaya (Mahvagga I, 1.1): At one time the awakened one, the Lord, being recently full awakened, was staying at Uruvel on the bank of the river Nerajar at the foot of the Tree of Awakening. Then the Lord sat cross-legged in one (posture) for seven days at the foot of the tree of Awakening experiencing the bliss of freedom. We read that he contemplated the causal uprising of phenomena (paticca samuppda) in direct and reverse order. He contemplated the arising of this entire mass of dukkha, of birth, old age, dying, grief, sorrow and lamentation, suffering, dejection and despair. And he contemplated the stopping of this entire mass of dukkha. About the following weeks after his enlightenment we read in the Atthaslin: Then after those seven days, he rose from the throne and stood gazing at it for seven days without blinking his eyes, thinking, On this throne I have indeed attained omniscience. Hence this doubt occurred to the devas: Surely today Siddhattha must still have something to accomplish, for he has not abandoned attachment to the throne. The Teacher, knowing their doubt, in order to quiet it, rose immediately into the sky and displayed the Twin Miracle.... Thus having displayed the Twin Miracle he descended from the sky and for seven days walked to and fro between the Throne and the place where he had stood.... ****** Nina. #125682 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:16 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland sarahprocter... Hi Azita, Good to hear from you and glad to hear your family are all doing well......you're obviously having fun being a Gran:-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "azita" wrote: > azita: wish I could join in also Rob, however, its so far away from the land of Oz and besides, I have a ticket for Bkk for Sept26 - o well. > Cheap tickets that cannot be changed. > > I think Sarah, that you will not be in Bkk by the time I get there, have I got that right? Do you know if AS will be back in Thailand by then. ..... S: You have it all right - we'll just be in Bkk for a week end August (arranged before Poland came up). We're going to and from Poland from Hong Kong. K.Sujin will be back in Bkk on 18th Sept, so she'll be well rested when you arrive. I think our friend from Vietnam said she was also visiting Bkk end Sept. How long will you be staying in Thailand? .... > > All good here, mostly, pleasant winter days in the tropics. Attended 5yo grandsons birthday yesterday, lots of party food, not one moment of eeven thinking about dhamma. 6month old granddaughter is learning to blow bubbles, she's a cute little thing. > Round and round we go .......... :) ... S: Truly round and round....round and round the mulberry bush, round and round in samsara, getting prickled as we go....! Blowing bubbles and experiencing burst bubbles, party food and delicacies, sicknesses and starvation.....all the worldly conditions on and on until the wisdom and equanimity has developed to see the mirage, the bubbles, the conjuring tricks for what they are. We are indeed fortunate to have heard the Truth about realities....and to appreciate it. Metta Sarah ==== #125683 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:35 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -viriya 1 - welfare for the householders sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > S: Such understanding has to develop gradually. For example, the 1st NT refers to the unsatisfactory nature of impermanent, conditioned dhammas. So by beginning to understanding seeing, visible object, other realities now, there is the beginning of understanding the truths, the beginning of overcoming ignorance. The first vipassana nana is the clear comprehension of namas and rupas. It has to begin now, > > D: yes, it has to begin with mindfulness , the first of the 7 links to enlightenment. ... S: With understanding, mindfulness and the other factors. They develop together. ... > S: At a moment of seeing, the experiencing of visible object is "All" that exist at that moment. Satipatthana has to develop now when there has been the clear understanding of present realities. To realise the unconditioned dhamma, the only way is the development of satipatthana, this is the Path. > > D: I wonder whether there is only a difference how to say it .. > The understanding of present realities , dhammas or phenomena of the 6 senses media (the All) needs the framework of what/where to pay attention to , i.e. in respect to body ,feeling,mind and mindobjects. > This means to train oneself by contemplation of the foundation as laid down by the Maha Satipatthana sutta , Abhidhamma enhences the base , providing more details. ... S: The understanding of these dhammas develops as a result of hearing and wisely considering - not by paying special attention, focussing, selecting objects or any other attempt to have awareness and understanding arise. The training is the development of understanding of dhammas as anatta. Like now - it is only seeing, a citta, which experiences visible object. It is just the reality at this moment, no self involved at all. it's useless to try and be aware of seeing, but awareness can arise anytime at all when its nature has been understood. ... > D: there is no real interruption of samsara , only that 'new cards ' meet the history (avijja sankhara) ... S: Yes, 'new cards' each moment, arising and falling away.... ... > > S:There are 3 rounds of vipaka cittas, kusala/akusala cittas and kamma....round and round and round. > > D: why 3 rounds ? kamma is inheritated and its fruits may condition kusala/akusala citta depending on opportunity , creating new kamma in our wandering (samsara) ... S: As I wrote before: >On account of the kilesa (defilements), kamma is committed and this brings results by way of vipaka and rupas produced by kamma. The following is from 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas' by Sujin on Dependent Origination and the 3 rounds: "As we have seen, the cycle of birth and death is threefold: the cycle of defilement, the cycle of kamma and the cycle of vipaaka. The cycle of defilement revolves when objects are experienced through the sense-doors and through the mind-door. Defilements that arise in the series or succession of javana cause the committing of kamma. Then the cycle of kamma revolves, akusala kamma and kusala kamma, performed through body, speech and mind. The cycle of kamma conditions vipaaka, and then the cycle of vipaaka revolves. When vipaakacitta arises and experiences an object through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue or the bodysense, defilements are bound to arise on account of the object that is experienced, and then the cycle of defilement revolves again. Time and again the defilements of like or dislike arise because of what appears through the sense-doors or the mind-door. Defilements again condition the performing of kamma, kusala kamma and akusala kamma, and these produce kusala vipaaka and akusala vipaaka. Thus there is no end to the threefold cycle. So long as pa~n~naa has not been developed and is not powerful enough to reach the stage of being able to realise the Four Noble Truths, the threefold cycle of defilement, kamma and vipaaka is bound to revolve all the time." Metta Sarah ==== #125684 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:45 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland szmicio Hi Rob E, > > L: This is kusala vipaka, to hear the Dhamma. And the javana that follows. Also decisions, plans, faith, worries..this are jaavanas. We think we can come, or we dont come...we think of..but no one can control the vipaka, like the enviroment that one lives, friends, cooming across dhamma. What i can say is just come. > > Thanks, Lukas! It is a nice invitation! L: I think Dhamma friendship is the most important. I always like to be associated with wise friends in Dhamma. But not always I can choose were the life throw me. This is always easy to say for me, like of vipaka and than jaavanas, but when times come this is often and mostly like just mere words to me. In few days I am going to my friend Luraya, and we going with her mom to Alps together. And I am tottaly scared how it will be. So scared to meet her. How to do to be accepted to make good impresion on her family, so scared. I am always not good in this socializing things. But I am so worried and affraid, like what Luraya will think of me, how I behave in different situations. If I really have a strenght to be a nice guy etc. How will I feel far from home, without my own money, depending on others. If I get enought food? etc. All so much self involved. And this is all dukkha, but i know it only intelectual understanding. In such moments I feel like having more support from my Dhamma friends here. Best wishes Lukas #125685 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:02 pm Subject: Re: Whatever happens has to happen. szmicio Dear Nina, A very good reminder. Thank u so much that u always post so much on Dhamma, what u ve heard on recordings. > Transcription of no. 16 of the 85 short talks on Dhamma: whatever > happens has to happen: > > < Whatever happens has to happen. When something has happend we know > that it has conditions for its occurring, even at this moment. If > there is firm understanding of Dhamma and of cause and effect, of > kamma that is cause and of vipaaka that is the result of kamma, can > we be troubled? People tell many stories about events that occurred > to them, but what happened had to happen. We cannot escape results, > such as sickness occurring because of having eaten poison. > > Someone who understands Dhamma is steadfast when akusala kamma > produces result. When we have more understanding of Dhamma, of cause > and result, we can gradually become detached from the idea of self. > There is no self at all. Seeing is seeing, it arises and falls away, > and it is the same with hearing, thinking or happiness. They arise > and then disappear completely, there is nothing left of them. They > are only elements, dhammas. They arise because there are conditions > for their arising and then they fall away. L: I've sent it to Luraya. She appreciates this also so much and finds it a good reminder. She wrote back: Best wishes Lukas #125686 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:03 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > KH: I was forgetting that `sense base' and `sense door' were essentially the same thing. Otherwise I would have realised that a sense base must always last for the full number of cittas arising at that door. > > One of the tricky areas is when there are no rupas, isn't it? In the arupa realm I think the bhavanga citta becomes the base/door of mind consciousness. I might have got that wrong too, but that's where I got the impression that a sense door could have been some kind of nama. .... S: Unlike in the sense realms, In the arupa realm, the cittas don't need a physical base, a rupa, in order to arise. There are no rupas experienced there and when mind door cittas arise, heart-base is not necessary as the base/support for these cittas. Now, in the sense realms, eye-sense is the base for seeing and so on. It is also the door for the other cittas in that process, but heart-base is actually the base for these other cittas. So they are not always the same. In the mind-door process, heart-base is the base for all the cittas, but the last bhavanga citta is given as the door-way for all these cittas to arise. When I've questioned it, I've been told that this just means that the last bhavanga citta is the proximate condition for the subsequent mind door cittas to arise. Anyway, a sense door cannot be a nama, but I follow your logic. ... > S: I think neither of those. If the rupa involved is too far gone by the time > the arrest bhavanga citta arises, there cannot be a full sense door process for > obvious reasons. This doesn't mean that the rupa was not strong, just that it > was experienced too late. Sometimes also, there are no tadarammana cittas at the > end of the process. > --------- > > KH: Now that you mention it I am beginning to remember that too. > > But I wonder why it was "experienced too late." .... S: Just conditions for the last bhavanga cittas, such as the 'vibrating' bhavanga citta to contact and experience the sense object later in its phase of having arisen or falling away.... by conditions! I'm sure it happens all the time - just depends on when there is the 'meeting' as to which part of the rupa's cycle is contacted. ... > This is your lucky day! After a two-day delay, during which I was suffering from a head cold (not a good thing on holidays), I reread my email and deleted a long paragraph of uninformed theorising. So you won't have to wade through my explanations of sense door processes that begin too late. .... S: Noooooooo!! J/k - I enjoy reading your theorising - don't revert to the draft cycles and delete habits of old:-/ .... > > S: As Nina wrote in a recent message in the Vism series: > > "When a sense object impinges on a sensebase, a complete sense-door > process of cittas can experience that object which has not fallen > away. The cittas of a complete sense-door process and the preceding > bhavanga-cittas are seventeen in number. Since ruupa lasts seventeen > moments of citta it can be experienced by the cittas of a sense-door > process. After it has just fallen away it is experienced through the > mind-door." > ----------- > > KH: That's clear thank you. Although just to make sure: when Nina said the cittas of a complete sense-door process "and" the preceding bhavanga-cittas were seventeen in number, she meant "and" in the sense of "including" didn't she? Otherwise I am back where I started. :-) ... S: Yes 'and' = 'including': 17 in total Metta Sarah ==== #125687 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:17 pm Subject: Re: grow disenchanted with stress sarahprocter... Dear Dieter (& Ken O), Good points and questions: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > I stumbled upon following verses ( Dhammapada 277-279 ) > > "Sabbe sakhr anicc'ti; > yad paya passati > atha nibbindati dukkhe > esa maggo visuddhiy. > > Sabbe sakhr dukkh'ti; > yad paya passati > atha nibbindati dukkhe > esa maggo visuddhiy. > > Sabbe dhamm anatt'ti; > yad paya passati > atha nibbindati dukkhe > esa maggo visuddhiy." > > When you see with discernment, 'All fabrications are inconstant' - you grow disenchanted with stress. This is the path to purity. When you see with discernment, 'All fabrications are stressful' - you grow disenchanted with stress. This is the path to purity. When you see with discernment, 'All phenomena are not-self' - you grow disenchanted with stress. This is the path to purity. (translated By Thanissaro Bhikkhu ) > > > ' Grow disentchanted with stress' ? Sounds to me rather strange . Who needs that ? Of course we want to get rid of it , usually looking for a replacement with the pleasant , the main troublemaker ( kama tanha or lobha , i.e. the craving for sensual pleasure ). > > So it is lust we need to grow disenchanted with , contrary to the statement, isn't it? > > The translation seems to be correct (nibbindati acc. to PTS : to be disgusted with,dissatisfied with, fed up). .... S: All conditioned dhammas are anicca, dukkha and anatta. What is impermanent is unsatisfactory (dukkha). When conditioned dhammas are seen as they are, this is the path of purification leading to the turning away, the revulsion with those dhammas that are conditioned. It is the third meaning, the meaning of sankhara dukkha, the suffering of formations, that is referred to here from the quote Ken O gave: Dispeller of Delusion para 446 446." Herein this is the list {maatikaa) for the purpose of expounding the Noble truth of suffering; for this suffering is manifold and of various kinds, that is to say ; the suffering as suffering, the suffering in change, the suffering in formations, concealed suffering, exposed suffering, figurative suffering (pariyaaya), literal suffering. 447." Herein bodily and mental painful feeling are called "suffering as suffering" because of their individual essence, because of their name and because of painfulness. [Bodily and mental] pleasant feeling are called "suffering in change" because of being the cause of the arising of pain through their change. ***Indifferent feeling and the remaining formations of the three planes are called 'suffering in formations” because of being oppressed by rise and fall.' But there is likewise oppression even in the paths and fruition, therefore these states should be understood to be called 'suffering of the formations', by their being included in the Truth of Suffering." **** S: As noted at the end, even the enlightenment path and fruition cittas are sankhara dukkha 'suffering of the formations' because they arise and fall away, are beyond anyone's control and thereby inherently unsatisfactory. (Nothing to do with 'stress' as we understand the term.) Metta Sarah ===== #125688 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:24 pm Subject: Re: arammana paccaya szmicio Dear Alberto Nice exercise :P > > L: So the goal is less avijja in life isnt it? vijjaanati, this is the first time I hear that word, can u say more Alberto? sa~n~njanati, or something like that I come across, this is I think wrong conceiving realities, like in first sutta of majjhima nikaya. > > There are two words, abhiny.., and pari.. something like this, this is in patisambidhamagga and first sutta of majjhima, what is a difference if u know what i mean? > > > vijaanaati > vinnana (to cognize > consciousness) > pajaanaati > panna (to know/to understand > knowledge/understanding) > sanjaanaati > . . . . . . . . . L: sa~njaanati? To conceive wrongly, by vipallasas and ma~n~nanas? because of wrong sanna? there are 3 vipalasas, sanna,citta, ditthi vipallasas and 3 mannanas: tanha , mana and dithi. It seems like vipalasas condition ma~n~nanas. Can u say more on that? > abhijaanaati/abhinneya refers to panna when it arises to know the individual characteristic (sabhaavalakkhana) of a reality; > parijaanaati/parinneya . . . . . . . . . . > > What would you put in place of the dots? I found that in Patisambidhamagga,Mahaavaggo, Matika. <20. Abhi~n~naapa~n~na ~naataṭṭhe ~naa.na.m. 21. Pari~n~naapa~n~naa t.ira.na.t.the ~naa.na.m. 22. Pahaane pa~n~naa pariccaga.t.the ~naa.na.m.> I know this as three pari~n~nas, nata pari~n~na, tisaranapari~n~na and pahana pari~n~na. I also ve heard of abhinnas but like supernatural knowledges or powers. So I am a bit confused now. Best wishes Lukas #125689 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:55 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > D: .... > You are stating " When the Buddha referred to location of heart-base, he was referring to ultimate realities only, using coventional language. " > > > But , Sarah , is this is not your interpretatation without canonical support ? ( relying - as I understand- only on a special passage of Vis M. ) .... S: Whatever we read in the Teachings is referring to ultimate realities because there are only ultimate realities: cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana. This is the "All" we've been discussing. When the Buddha refers to this "All" it means that whatever we read in the texts, in the commentaries is also referring to dhammas included in the All. ... Metta Sarah ======= #125690 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:55 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 jonoabb Hi Rob E (125667) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: If the fact that kusala mind states can be interspersed among strong akusala mind states is beside the point, then I must have missed your point :-)). > > > > So is your point that an action that is clearly one of, for example, deliberate killing is bound to be accompanied by a preponderance of akusala cittas? Perhaps you could explain the significance of this observation to the development of the path. > > RE: My point from the beginning has been that the choices and carrying out of conventional activities is part of the path, not separate from the path, and that the Buddha's prohibitions and admonitions against killing, wrong livelihood, wrong action, wrong speech, etc., are against activities in the world as well as the akusala mental states that would lead to such choices. > > In addition I have been trying to show that akusala mental states lead to negative actions in the conventional world, and that they work together rather than separately. The significance to the path is that if that is the case, one must watch what they do in the world and see that as part of the path in addition to understanding mental states that arise. > =============== J: One notion not included in your statement of the general rule and its significance, but which you have previously advanced, is the idea that *when akusala actions are present, one can presume the presence of akusala mental states* (i.e., in oneself). Reflecting on where you might be coming from on this, I suppose that if kusala conduct is considered to be part of the path (as it is for you), then akusala conduct is viewed as taking one away from the path. I believe this idea conduces to wrong practice, in that one is tempted to try and minimise any akusala (rather than just appreciate the importance of a moment of awareness of any presently arising dhamma). And awareness is seen by some as a way of `zapping' akusala. All without an idea of self or control of course ;-)) Jon #125691 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Whatever happens has to happen. nilovg Dear Lukas and Luraya, Op 26-jul-2012, om 10:02 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > L: I've sent it to Luraya. She appreciates this also so much and > finds it a good reminder. She wrote back: > > a very good letter and to reflect upon, but even difficult, for as > long as one has not seen that it really is like that > that things happen to conditions, i feel that it is a blind believe > from my side and then doubt arises... > > -------- N: I am glad Luraya appreciates this. It is very difficult to apply it, as Luraya says. I keep on being worried about Lodewijk's health condition, and I need this reminder. Nina. #125692 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Wasteland nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 26-jul-2012, om 9:45 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > But I am so worried and affraid, like what Luraya will think of > me, how I behave in different situations. If I really have a > strenght to be a nice guy etc. How will I feel far from home, > without my own money, depending on others. If I get enought food? > etc. All so much self involved. And this is all dukkha, but i know > it only intelectual understanding. In such moments I feel like > having more support from my Dhamma friends here. ------- N: As you say, so much self involved. We all have that, very understandable. Kh Sujin would give the advice to think of others, that really helps. How nice that you will go to the Alps with Luraya and her mother. An occasion to help where help is needed, many opportunities for small gestures expressing concern for others. Don't despise small gestures, they are important. You will feel much happier that way and then others will be glad that you feel at ease. Nina. #125693 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: arammana paccaya nilovg Dear Alberto and Lukas, sa~njaanati: to recognize or know. parijaanaati: to comprehend well. The suffix pari seems to me an intensivum. It can mean around. To know all around. Nina. Op 25-jul-2012, om 17:00 heeft Alberto het volgende geschreven: > vijaanaati > vinnana (to cognize > consciousness) > pajaanaati > panna (to know/to understand > knowledge/understanding) > sanjaanaati > . . . . . . . . . > > abhijaanaati/abhinneya refers to panna when it arises to know the > individual characteristic (sabhaavalakkhana) of a reality; > parijaanaati/parinneya . . . . . . . . . . #125694 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Khandhas - audio extract KK 2011 moellerdieter Dear Sarah (and Howard) , I suggest to agree what Howard previously suggested ; it is a matter of speech. Strictly speaking , making a difference between realities (dhammas ) and concept (khandha, a group of specified dhammas) Ven. Nyanatiloka's note is vaild, at least as I understand so far.. (see below) with Metta Dieter "What is called individual existence is in reality nothing but a mere process of those mental and physical phenomena, a process that since time immemorial has been going on, and that also after death will still continue for unthinkably long periods of time. These 5 groups, however, neither singly nor collectively constitute any self-dependent real ego-entity, or personality (atta), nor is there to be found any such entity apart from them. Hence the belief in such an ego-entity or personality, as real in the ultimate sense, proves a mere illusion. "When all constituent parts are there, The designation 'cart' is used; Just so, where the five groups exist, Of 'living being' do we speak." (S. V. 10). The fact ought to be emphasized here that these 5 groups, correctly speaking, merely form an abstract classification by the Buddha, but that they as such, i.e. as just these 5 complete groups, have no real existence, since only single representatives of these groups, mostly variable, can arise with any state of consciousness. For example, with one and the same unit of consciousness only one single kind of feeling, say joy or sorrow, can be associated and never more than one. Similarly, two different perceptions cannot arise at the same moment. Also, of the various kinds of sense-cognition or consciousness, only one can be present at a time, for example, seeing, hearing or inner consciousness, etc. Of the 50 mental formations, however, a smaller or larger number are always associated with every state of consciousness, as we shall see later on. Some writers on Buddhism who have not understood that the five khandha are just classificatory groupings, have conceived them as compact entities ('heaps', 'bundles'), while actually, as stated above, the groups never exist as such, i.e. they never occur in a simultaneous totality of all their constituents. Also those single constituents of a group which are present in any given body- and -mind process, are of an evanescent nature, and so also their varying combinations. Feeling, perception and mental formations are only different aspects and functions of a single unit of consciousness. They are to consciousness what redness, softness, sweetness, etc. are to an apple and have as little separate existence as those qualities. In S. XXII, 56, there is the following short definition of these 5 groups... snip ----- Original Message ----- From: sarah abbott To: dsg Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2012 5:42 AM Subject: [dsg] Khandhas - audio extract KK 2011 Dear Friends, I was just discussing khandhas with Howard when I heard the following as I ate my lunch: ***** Phil: We were talking yesterday about rupas and I was wondering: are rupas the same here in this beautiful place in the lovely countryside and in a part of the busy city? KS: Doesn't rupa arise and fall away too - each split second? So each one is not the same one at all. Never the same, no matter here or there - just that which has impinged on the eye-sense has arisen and fallen away. P: They're always different, everywhere. KS: Yes, never comes back - each one and that's the meaning of khandha. Khandha passes away, never comes back P: And the khandhas always arise together...? KS: Each one is one khandha. P: OK, khandha doesn't mean like a group of... KS: They arise together, but each one of them is a khandha, not the same one. ***** Metta Sarah ===== #125695 From: "Alberto" Date: Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: arammana paccaya sprlrt Dear Lukas and Nina, > L: I know this as three pari~n~nas, nata pari~n~na, tisaranapari~n~na and pahana pari~n~na. I also ve heard of abhinnas but like supernatural knowledges or powers. So I am a bit confused now. There are many words for in paali for understanding, like for snow in the eskimo language :-) Alberto #125696 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage in India, Ch 4, 2 moellerdieter Dear Sarah, again I am quite behind , sorry .. you wrote: D: accompanied by which cetasika? I thought about absence of mana , however mana involves not only the conceit to be superior , but as well to be inferior . Probably it is the level of panna which determines kusala or akusala (?) ... S: Yes, panna is the key. We can refer to the respect as the sila, the behaviour by speech and deeds when paying respect to the Triple Gem. However, it depends on panna as to whether there can really be any refuge, any true respect for the Triple Gem, appreciating that no one but the Buddha could have taught us the Dhamma. If we just pay respect by tradition, there will be little confidence because there is little if any panna. It is only by developing right understanding of realities that understanding, confidence and true respect for the Triple Gem will develop. Here's a quote by K.Sujin from the Cambodia talks: "Sujin: Nobody forces you to develop understanding. Buddhists listen to the Dhamma because they take their refuge in the Exalted One, the Sammaasambuddha, in the Dhamma and in the ariyan Sangha, the Community of the enlightened persons. All buddhists take their refuge in the Triple Gem. In what way are the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha of the enlightened persons a refuge? If someone says that he venerates the Exalted One, the Sammaasambuddha, without studying the Dhamma and listening to it, is that true respect? At the time when the Buddha had not passed away buddhists would visit him wherever he dwellt, in order to listen to the Dhamma. They wanted to listen because they realized the excellence of the Dhamma and valued it as a treasure. The Buddha explained that whatever arises does so because of the appropriate conditions and that it then falls away. It is dukkha because it is impermanent. It depends on the individual who listens whether he agrees with this or not, whether he is interested to know this or not. However, it is necessary to study the Dhamma first so that one can understand that the Dhamma as explained by the Buddha is entirely true." D: well said.. ... > S:We can only know our own at any moment. People may looks so respectful as they visit the Holy Places, as they visit temples, as they show respect to monks, but, as we know, there can be a lot of attachment, ignorance and wrong view in between any kusala cittas at such times. > > D: rites and rituals are part of our social life . I think what makes the difference is whether it comes from the heart which I.M.H.O. has much to do with Brahma Vihara.. ... S: Panna and all the perfections. The brahma viharas only arise when beings are the object. So at moments of paying respect to the Buddha, there is aloha, adosa and aloha (if panna is arising), but not the brahma viharas. Metta can only arise in regard to thoughts of loving kindness towards living beings. D: yes ,' brahma viharas only arise when beings are the object' , when one has a heart for other people. Nowadays paying respect to the Buddha means actually to see the teacher in his teaching after the Master passed away. ... > S:Understanding the Dhamma now, the realities appearing now is the greatest respect to the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. > > D: and even more if this understanding of reality , i.e. knowledge and clearseeing according to actuality , serves as condition for disentchantment, dispassion and so detachment. ... S: Yes, whenever understanding arises, there is detachment and dispassion at such moments developing. D:I think there is difference between understanding and insight . For example a smoker may understand that smoking is bad for his health, but only by insight he/she will draw the consequences and quit, which means real detachment . with Metta Dieter P.S: nice to learn about your beautiful adventure while swimming .. must have been a bit of comfort after this tragic event some time ago. (is your friend still in a coma?) #125697 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:50 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland szmicio Dear Nina, Thank u for this kind support. I need it. I really need it. Even a small support. > N: As you say, so much self involved. We all have that, very > understandable. L: Is it a ditthi cetasika, that takes it all for a self? What is ditthi cetasika? > Kh Sujin would give the advice to think of others, > that really helps. L: In what way, to think of others? I am mostly self-concerned. A long stories of me. And how I am treated by others. A jelousy may be also concern here. I would like to have less of all of that. Just honest thoughts. > How nice that you will go to the Alps with Luraya > and her mother. An occasion to help where help is needed, many > opportunities for small gestures expressing concern for others. Don't > despise small gestures, they are important. You will feel much > happier that way and then others will be glad that you feel at ease. L: That helps me to not expect too much. This is always helpful. Best wishes Lukas #125698 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:01 pm Subject: Conventional activities as part of the path (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: If the fact that kusala mind states can be interspersed among strong akusala mind states is beside the point, then I must have missed your point :-)). > > > > > > So is your point that an action that is clearly one of, for example, deliberate killing is bound to be accompanied by a preponderance of akusala cittas? Perhaps you could explain the significance of this observation to the development of the path. > > > > RE: My point from the beginning has been that the choices and carrying out of conventional activities is part of the path, not separate from the path, and that the Buddha's prohibitions and admonitions against killing, wrong livelihood, wrong action, wrong speech, etc., are against activities in the world as well as the akusala mental states that would lead to such choices. > > =============== > > J: Regarding "the carrying out of conventional activities is part of the path", you seem to be saying that kusala of the level of sila is part of the path. Whereas to my understanding, only kusala of the level of awareness/vipassana bhavana constitutes path moment. I can't generalize like that so easily. I mentioned specific areas of path that I believe are expressed through conventional activities, and it is the question of what role they play or do not play that I am speaking about here - not about sila as a general proposition. The Buddha said that we should engage in right speech. He did not say right speech was a dhamma, though it certainly has a corresponding set of mental states, but he did specifically speak of gossip, causing dissension, etc. Those are not dhammas, they are conventional actions. I would like to know how you deal with them, and if the Buddha says they are important things to avoid *doing,* is that not part of the path he laid out? Can someone gain right understanding while gossiping and causing dissension? I believe they cannot. If understanding were to arise at such a moment, that could happen, but such an arising would *stop* the proscribed activity. > Regarding "the Buddha's admonitions against killing, wrong livelihood, wrong action, wrong speech, etc., are against activities in the world as well as the akusala mental states that would lead to such choices", yes, most akusala kamma patha involves acts through body or speech doors, i.e., is not purely mental. No disagreement. But again, this is a matter of sila rather than bhavana. How can they be separated? The same cetana that represents the mental state leads to the action. Kamma patha is of a much stronger degree when realized through speech or action, so they are significant for kamma. I think that understanding is also implicated when one acts out of ignorance. In addition, many mental states are not about right understanding, but are about what one thinks or what one wants to do. Cetana can be kusala without understanding, and then you would say it is with regard to sila, but many kusala mental states are also on the level of sila. So are they also not part of the path? I guess not...? I'm not sure about this separating sila from understanding and making them into two separate paths in essence. I don't think the Buddha spoke about them that way. I believe he said that jhana and meritorious actions led to the higher states. It seems to me that all kusala grows together, but maybe I don't understand how it works. > > =============== > > RE: In addition I have been trying to show that akusala mental states lead to negative actions in the conventional world, and that they work together rather than separately. The significance to the path is that if that is the case, one must watch what they do in the world and see that as part of the path in addition to understanding mental states that arise. > > =============== > > J: Regarding, "akusala mental states lead to negative actions in the conventional world", agreed; but more importantly, akusala mental states lead to the commission of akusala kamma patha. > > Regarding, "The significance to the path is that one must watch what they do in the world and see that as part of the path in addition to understanding mental states that arise", I do not understand the development of the path to involve `watching what one does in the world'. I think that avoiding akusala acts of body and speech is part of the sila, but not part of the bhavana, taught by the Buddha. Or do you have in mind some other kind of `watching'? No I just don't see an "eightfold path" being separated into one factor alone and seven on the side, or that the other seven are really only part of the one - all subsidiaries of understanding. I'll read B. Bodhi's explanation and respond to that in a separate post. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #125699 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:55 pm Subject: Re: What is the characteristic of citta that can be known in daily life? sarahprocter... Dear Azita & Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "azita" wrote: > > I am listening Dhamma quite a bit last days, but the right understanding of the characteristic of citta never arises. What is the way to understand this characteristic of citta? > > azita: firstly, I think that trying to have right understanding is the very thing that prevents it from arising. The path to developing right understanding goes along with detachment not attachment to having awareness arise when we want. Studying, listening, contemplating the dhamma and sanna will remember over time, that this present moment is jst another arising and falling away of citta, cetasika and rupa. No'we' to do anything. ... S: Well pointed out.... lobha follows all the time.... Metta Sarah ===== #125700 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:01 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 5, no 9. nilovg Dear friends, The Path of Discrimination (Paisambhidmagga, I, 125) states concerning the Twin Miracle: ... Here the Perfect One performs the Twin Miracle, which is not shared by his disciples. He produces a mass of fire from the upper part of his body and a shower of water from the lower part of his body.... Some people may wonder whether it is possible to perform such a miracle. When the right conditions have been cultivated citta can perform miracles. Those who have cultivated jhna can develop supernormal powers such as walking on water or diving into the earth. We read about several of the Buddhas disciples who were skilful at supernormal powers. Therefore, it is not surprising that an omniscient Buddha could perform the Twin Miracle. The Atthaslin relates that the Buddha spent the fourth week in the Jewel House where he contemplated the Abhidhamma. It is said that when he contemplated the seventh book, the Book of Conditional Relations (Pahna) his body emitted rays of six colours. In this book are taught twentyfour classes of conditional relations, and, the Atthaslin states, his omniscience certainly found its opportunity therein. We paid respect at the place where the Buddha stood the second week, looking at the Tree without blinking his eyes. Then we paid respect at the place where he, the third week, walked up and down. After that we paid respect at the place of the Jewel House where he, the fourth week, contemplated the Abhidhamma. Only later on, during another pilgrimage, it was pointed out where the Jewel House was. The Buddha spent the fifth week at the goatherds (banyan) tree where he met a brahman who asked him how one can become a brahman and what the things are which make one a brahman. The Buddha explained to him that he who eradicates defilements is a brahman. ****** Nina. #125701 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:05 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (3) sarahprocter... Dear Phil & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > Chapter 7 of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket continued: > Which world is better: the world where a great deal of wholesomeness has been accumulated, so that kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity can arise, or the world of hatred, anger and displeasure? > Different people may meet the same person and know the same things about him, but the world of each one of them will evolve with loving-kindness or with aversion, depending on the power of the citta that has accumulated different inclinations in the case of each person." (51) > > (end of passage) > > Phil adds: Which world is better? The world of wholesomeness of course. But the most important thing is to understand whatever reality arises. A. Sujin asked a kind of dangerous question above, because people who misunderstand Dhamma might believe that the point is to rush towards kusala without understanding that if kusala has not been accumulated, kusala will not result. Any intentional effort to have kusala will result in akusala through lobha and moha rooted cittas. We have to wisely understand whatever reality arises, if we run away from akusala we are just running deeper into akusala. .... S: Well said. The Teachings are just pointing out the facts about different kinds of realities. Whilst wrong view has not been eradicated, there is bound to be subtle or not so subtle efforts at 'trying' to have kusala, be a good person and so on. Such dhammas, such lobha and wrong view can also be known as anatta. ... > Wisely understanding akusala is in itself a moment of kusala, that is the only way kusala can develop, through understanding. This is the sort of subtle point that made the Buddha hesitate to teach in the world because he knew, even thousands of years ago, that his teaching went against the way of the world now. How much more now in the age of personal accomplishment and striving for self fulfillment though 40 day retreats and so on? We are lucky to have a teacher who gets at the subtlety of Dhamma... ... S: Agreed. ... > > I'm off to Canada, this series will continue in a few weeks, I won't have my book with me. .... S: Best wishes for your trip. As your quotes show, according to our tendencies the cittas think in all sorts of ways, often with excitement or apprehension about trips. We never know how things will work out. Just a short while ago, as you'll remember, Lukas was very concerned and agitated at the prospect of returning to Poland. Since his return, there have been conditions for lots of kusala accumulations to manifest - so busy planning and helping others, no time to be depressed and agitated:-) Conditions.... just variegated cittas thinking in different ways after seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching any place, anytime.... Many thanks for all the helpful extracts. Let us know how your trip to Canada goes... perhaps some good discussions with your father and your cousin's father. Metta Sarah ==== #125702 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:10 pm Subject: Re: packing lists. sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >P:Maybe Alex can add swimming with a whale to his favourite chestnuts >such as driving into a tree and slamming your head into a door frame. >==================================== > > No matter what one says, we all behave as if external conceptual objects are really there. To try to act as if external "conceptual" objects don't exist and cannot be objects of the mind IMHO, is wrong and is constantly contradicted with every step and every usage of this "non existent" phenomena... ... S: Yes, we behave "as if external conceptual objects are really there", most of the time in ignorance. This doesn't mean that understanding cannot develop and indeed it must develop - the understanding which knows that whatever the behaviour might seem, in fact there are only conditioned dhammas arising and passing away, only ever namas and rupas arising and passing away. For the sotapanna, the outer behaviour will seem just the same - whether driving a car, swimming with a whale or doing the dishes. For those without understanding of dhammas, they can never understand the sotapanna's wisdom - the wisdom that directly understands realities as anatta whatever the behaviour seems to be conventionally. Metta Sarah ==== #125703 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage in India, Ch 4, 2 sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > S: Panna and all the perfections. The brahma viharas only arise when beings are the object. So at moments of paying respect to the Buddha, there is aloha, adosa and aloha (if panna is arising), but not the brahma viharas. Metta can only arise in regard to thoughts of loving kindness towards living beings. > > D: yes ,' brahma viharas only arise when beings are the object' , when one has a heart for other people. > Nowadays paying respect to the Buddha means actually to see the teacher in his teaching after the Master passed away. .... S: When we understand the Teachings, we understand the Buddha's virtues and wisdom too. ... > ... > S: Yes, whenever understanding arises, there is detachment and dispassion at such moments developing. > > > D:I think there is difference between understanding and insight . For example a smoker may understand that smoking is bad for his health, > but only by insight he/she will draw the consequences and quit, which means real detachment . ... S: I don't think the understanding and insight into realities as taught by the Buddha has anything to do with the kinds of conventional understanding and insight, such as in the example you give. ... > P.S: nice to learn about your beautiful adventure while swimming .. must have been a bit of comfort after this tragic event some time ago. > (is your friend still in a coma?) .... S: Yes, gain and loss, kusala and akusala vipaka all the time.... I think of my friend often whilst swimming and like to be inspired to be as caring to other swimmers or non-swimmers as I can, remembering how we never know when it might be our last conversation, last encounter with them. People we meet may have no interest in the Dhamma, but there are always opportunities to show kindnesses "from the heart", as you'd say. Yes, my friend is still in a coma (in London). Her family seem to be doing well. Thanks for asking. Metta Sarah ===== #125704 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage in India, Ch 4, 2 sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Yes, my friend is still in a coma (in London). .... S: I liked this quote of K.Sujin's which Nina gave: < Whatever happens has to happen. When something has happend we know that it has conditions for its occurring, even at this moment. If there is firm understanding of Dhamma and of cause and effect, of kamma that is cause and of vipaaka that is the result of kamma, can we be troubled? People tell many stories about events that occurred to them, but what happened had to happen.< .... S: Last night I got some bad news of someone very close having cancer - kept quiet for a long while. It really helps so much to reflect on kamma and vipaka, dhammas rather than stories. "Can we be troubled?" Only if the understanding is not firm enough, not strong enough. It must be developed. This is the only way. Metta Sarah ==== #125705 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:47 pm Subject: Re: Problems in speculative philosophy sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >S:You are saying the "fridge" is inconstant and will fall apart >and >that we cannot base our understanding on it. Is this the >Teaching >we need to hear from a Buddha? > >====================================== > >A: All things are inconstant and because of that cannot give constant happiness. I believe that things that are most directly visible here and now are more important. ... S: When the Buddha talked about "sabbe dhamma anicca", was he talking about fridges? What is directly visible now? ... > > I also think that Buddha's analysis into elements is not meant to be taken metaphysically "things don't exist". Rather, I believe, it denies their unity and constancy. Something that is made of parts, can break apart - anicca. .... S: Did the Buddha say it was the elements, the dhammas that were anicca or the "somethings...made of parts"? ... > > Buddha, IMHO, denied the existence of one singular-inner-core called Atta. He did not deny the empirical world of people and things. .... S: So there are people existing without inner cores? Is this through sight, through hearing or just by thinking? Did the Buddha ever say the path was knowing the "all" abut people existing without inner cores? ... > > > >S:Dhammas exist no matter any of the activities you refer to. >Understanding dhammas doesn't mean not opening the fridge! It means >that there is no illusion that in an ultimate sense there is a >fridge. "Fridge" is not the object of satipatthana. > >==================================== > > > It seems to me that holding idea that some things don't exist, and then using them as if they exist, is a bit too problematic, don't you think? .... S: The Buddha slep in his cave or kuti, he address people by name, he travelled to different places - all without any illusion whatsoever that there was anything at all arising and falling away but namas and rupas. When there is understanding of seeing, visible object and other realities, there is nothing problematic or confusing at all. ... > > > I believe that "conceptual" objects are on the same level as "ultimate" objects in sense that they are anicca, dukkha, anatta, and can be objects of satipatthana. > > In satipatthana sutta, 31 bodyparts are objects of satipatthana! .... S: Just rupas, vedana, cittas and other dhammas. Whatever language is used, the "all", the paramattha dhammas are the only objects of the path, the development of satipatthana. Metta Sarah ===== #125706 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:49 pm Subject: Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch. 5, no 2. sarahprocter... Dear Nina & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > >".....Not mystery is the aim of the Buddha's teachings, but > discovery of the true nature of realities. Is this not the greatest > "marvellous quality" of the Buddha?" ... S: Definitely! Metta Sarah ===== #125707 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Wasteland nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 27-jul-2012, om 5:50 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > > > L: Is it a ditthi cetasika, that takes it all for a self? What is > ditthi cetasika? > ------ N: It is wrong view. It is a distorted view of reality. It accompanies lobha-muula-citta, four of the 8 types. But when we cling to self there is not always di.t.thi. We can cling with lobha, without wrong view, or with wrong view, thinking that self exists. Or we may cling with conceit: clinging to the importance of self: I am so important. What will others think of me? Conceit arises more often than we would imagine. ----- > > > Kh Sujin would give the advice to think of others, > > that really helps. > > L: In what way, to think of others? I am mostly self-concerned. A > long stories of me. And how I am treated by others. A jelousy may > be also concern here. I would like to have less of all of that. > Just honest thoughts. > -------- N: To be concerned of the wellbeing of others, with mettaa. You write about wanting to have less akusala, but just wanting will not help. It is pa~n~naa that sees the danger of akusala. But this does not arise on command. There is such a lot of thinking in a day but we can learn that this is just a conditioned element. ------- > > > How nice that you will go to the Alps with Luraya > > and her mother. ... > > L: That helps me to not expect too much. This is always helpful. > ------ N: Often stressed by Kh. Sujin: No expectations. That is motivated by clinging and of no use. ------ Nina. #125708 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:28 am Subject: Re: packing lists. truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, >S:Yes, we behave "as if external conceptual objects are really >there", most of the time in ignorance. >=================================================== A: As I understand the suttas, ignorance is mostly defined as ignoring 4NT. ==================================================== >S:For the sotapanna, the outer behaviour will seem just the same - >whether driving a car, swimming with a whale or doing the dishes. >For those without understanding of dhammas, they can never >understand the sotapanna's wisdom - the wisdom that directly >understands realities as anatta whatever the behaviour seems to be >conventionally. >==================================================== A:How does sotapanna differ from ordinary good person? You say the understanding of "anatta", but how does this understanding reflects on sotapanna's behaviour? With best wishes, Alex #125709 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:36 am Subject: Re: Problems in speculative philosophy truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, My belief that all things are impermanent. >S:When the Buddha talked about "sabbe dhamma anicca", was he >talking about fridges? What is directly visible now? >================================================ Visible too is impermanent. >S: Did the Buddha say it was the elements, the dhammas that were >anicca or the "somethings...made of parts"? >============================ Precisely because a "whole" is made of many smaller "parts" it makes that "whole" inconstant, and anatta. If something was totally, totally independant - that would be Atta. >S: So there are people existing without inner cores? >Is this through sight, through hearing or just by thinking? Did the >Buddha ever say the path was knowing the "all" abut people existing >without inner cores? >============================== All phenomena depend on various other factors which is what makes them anicca, anatta and dukkha. >S:Dhammas exist no matter any of the activities you refer to. >Understanding dhammas doesn't mean not opening the fridge! It means >that there is no illusion that in an ultimate sense there is a >fridge. "Fridge" is not the object of satipatthana. >========================================== I believe that avijja means being deluded about 4NT which has nothing to do with metaphysical speculations about what really, really exists in "ultimate" sense. >S:The Buddha slep in his cave or kuti, he address people by name, >he travelled to different places - all without any illusion >whatsoever that there was anything at all arising and falling away >but namas and rupas. When there is understanding of seeing, visible >object and other realities, there is nothing problematic or >confusing at all. >======================================================== I believe that the delusion which Buddha didn't have was delusion about 4NT. With best wishes, Alex #125710 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:36 am Subject: Conventional activities as part of the path (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Hi Rob E (125698) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: Regarding "the carrying out of conventional activities is part of the path", you seem to be saying that kusala of the level of sila is part of the path. Whereas to my understanding, only kusala of the level of awareness/vipassana bhavana constitutes path moment. > > RE: I can't generalize like that so easily. I mentioned specific areas of path that I believe are expressed through conventional activities, and it is the question of what role they play or do not play that I am speaking about here - not about sila as a general proposition. The Buddha said that we should engage in right speech. He did not say right speech was a dhamma, though it certainly has a corresponding set of mental states, but he did specifically speak of gossip, causing dissension, etc. Those are not dhammas, they are conventional actions. I would like to know how you deal with them, and if the Buddha says they are important things to avoid *doing,* is that not part of the path he laid out? > =============== J: Yes, the advantages of avoiding akusala conduct is part of the teaching of the Buddha. However, in the texts the term `path' has a specific -- and limited -- meaning, and I think it's good to be aware of this. The term `path' is used to connote the kusala that leads to escape from samsara, as distinct from those other kinds of kusala which lead to further rebirth in samsara (albeit in a happy realm). (For an elaboration on the 2 kinds of kusala, see the extract from Bhikkhu Bodhi quoted in my earlier message, requoted at the end of this message.) The term `path' also helps to distinguish the things taught by the Buddha that were (re-)discovered by him at the time of his enlightenment from those things taught by the Buddha but which were already known. The avoiding of akusala conduct falls within the latter group. If we are to regard *all kusala conduct* as part of the path then we would have to say that any person who has kusala speech is developing the path, even though the person may have never heard the Buddha's teaching (and perhaps holds strong beliefs that contradict those teachings). > =============== > RE: Can someone gain right understanding while gossiping and causing dissension? I believe they cannot. If understanding were to arise at such a moment, that could happen, but such an arising would *stop* the proscribed activity. > =============== J: The awareness of a presently arising dhamma can occur in the midst of strong akusala. It is not the function of awareness/insight to "stop" presently arising akusala, but to understand the characteristic of the presently arising dhamma that is its object (which may or may not be the akusala mental state). > =============== > RE: How can they [sila and bhavana] be separated? The same cetana that represents the mental state leads to the action. Kamma patha is of a much stronger degree when realized through speech or action, so they are significant for kamma. I think that understanding is also implicated when one acts out of ignorance. In addition, many mental states are not about right understanding, but are about what one thinks or what one wants to do. Cetana can be kusala without understanding, and then you would say it is with regard to sila, but many kusala mental states are also on the level of sila. So are they also not part of the path? I guess not...? > > I'm not sure about this separating sila from understanding and making them into two separate paths in essence. I don't think the Buddha spoke about them that way. I believe he said that jhana and meritorious actions led to the higher states. It seems to me that all kusala grows together, but maybe I don't understand how it works. > =============== J: The performing of meritorious actions and the attaining of jhana is not something that is exclusive ot the teaching of a Buddha. These things were known already. What the Buddha discovered was the path that consists of insight into the true nature of presently arising dhammas, encapsulated in the teaching on the Noble Eightfold Path. Jon << << << [A]ctions springing from the wholesome roots may be of two kinds, mundane and world-transcending. The mundane (lokiya) wholesome actions have the potential to produce a fortunate rebirth and pleasant results within the round of rebirths. The world-transcending or supramundane (lokuttara) wholesome actions -- namely, the kamma generated by developing the Noble Eightfold Path and the other aids to enlightenment -- lead to enlightenment and to liberation from the round of rebirths. This is the kamma that dismantles the entire process of kammic causation. >> >> >> Bhikkhu Bodhi #125711 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:10 am Subject: Conventional activities as part of the path (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Hi Jon. Pt. 2. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: Jon, citing Bikkhu Bodhi: > << << << > The word "kamma" literally means action, but technically it refers to volitional action. As the Buddha says: "It is volition (cetanaa) that I call kamma; for having willed (cetayitvaa), one acts by body, speech and mind." (AN III 415) Rob E.: I think we can all agree that without volition, action is meaningless, and that volition, cetana, generates kamma. If you kill someone by pure accident, there is no kamma. Another way of putting it is that one's "sentience" is not involved. One's "rupas" happen to do the unwholesome action due to condition, but one's "namas" are not involved, and citta is not aware of what is taking place. When volition arises to do evil, then of course that is what generates kamma. If someone were to drink "fruit punch" without realizing it was spiked with alcohol, or eat "hash brownies" thinking it was a pleasant desert, then of course there's no volition and no kamma. However there are two issues involved that go beyond this: 1. While we can agree that many actions could possibly take place by accident, and that without volition there is no kamma, is it also possible that unwholesome actions that *do* arise from volition are the expression of that volition and thus partake in the creation of kamma? To put it more simply, when cetana reaches completion through speech or physical action, then the cetana is strong enough to cause concrete actions to be carried out, and the weight of the kamma is known to be stronger in that case, and so we can say that the physical act that *does* come from akusala cetana increases the kamma. Thus the physical expression of cetana is itself akusala, and is worse than "unacted desires," to quote William Blake out of context. Blake, on the other hand, thought that building up akusala cetana was worse than taking action: "Better to strangle a baby in its cradle than to nurse unacted desires." 2. There are some actions that just will not take place unless akusala cetana brings them into existence. There is no way that anyone is going to murder, lie, rob, cheat or steal in the absence of akusala cetana. So we can say that such actions are the conventional expression of akusala cetana. The connection is obvious. Again, to anticipate a possible exception, if one cheats or steals by accident, it's not really cheating or stealing and thus is neither the expression of akusala cetana, nor is it a truly unwholesome act. It's just another accident. > Kamma thus denotes deeds that originate from volition. Rob E.: Agreed! > Such volition may remain purely mental, generating kamma that occurs as thoughts, plans, and desires; or it may come to expression outwardly through manifest bodily and verbal actions. ... Rob E.: ...As I've been saying, there are those three levels of kamma patha, and each one is significant, not just the mental level. ... > The mundane (lokiya) wholesome actions have the potential to produce a fortunate rebirth and pleasant results within the round of rebirths. > > The world-transcending or supramundane (lokuttara) wholesome actions -- namely, the kamma generated by developing the Noble Eightfold Path and the other aids to enlightenment -- lead to enlightenment and to liberation from the round of rebirths. This is the kamma that dismantles the entire process of kammic causation. The question is whether conventional actions and activities that correspond to the mental factors of the 8fold NP's components are: a/ part of the action of those 8 factors; b/ reflective of the activity of the 8 factors. Anticipating again, it may always be possible that a seeming positive activity may actually have an akusala root, but in many cases, right livelihood, right speech, right action "in the world" will be the expression of the development of the corresponding mental factors, and in my view, will then create part of the action of developing them. If physical akusala kamma patha is worse than mental kamma patha, then physical kusala as the expression of kusala kamma patha is also more worthwhile than mental factors that are too weak to express themselves in action. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = #125712 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:30 am Subject: travel time.... sarahprocter... Dear Friends, We'll be without a computer for a couple of days..... speak soon from Hong Kong. Metta Sarah ============ #125713 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:35 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland epsteinrob Hi Lukas. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > In few days I am going to my friend Luraya, and we going with her mom to Alps together. And I am tottaly scared how it will be. So scared to meet her. How to do to be accepted to make good impresion on her family, so scared. I am always not good in this socializing things. But I am so worried and affraid, like what Luraya will think of me, how I behave in different situations. If I really have a strenght to be a nice guy etc. How will I feel far from home, without my own money, depending on others. If I get enought food? etc. All so much self involved. And this is all dukkha, but i know it only intelectual understanding. In such moments I feel like having more support from my Dhamma friends here. I have those same feelings many times. Being a Dhamma student is unfortunately no protection against anxiety and insecurity, but it is possible to experience those feelings and realize - intellectually at least as you say - that they are just experiences that are coming and going, and don't really tell you the truth about reality. Sometimes it is interesting to watch a feeling like that to the end and see that at some point it fades away. It may come up again, but it is not as continuous as it seems. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - #125714 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:44 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: One notion not included in your statement of the general rule and its significance, but which you have previously advanced, is the idea that *when akusala actions are present, one can presume the presence of akusala mental states* (i.e., in oneself). > > Reflecting on where you might be coming from on this, I suppose that if kusala conduct is considered to be part of the path (as it is for you), then akusala conduct is viewed as taking one away from the path. > > I believe this idea conduces to wrong practice, in that one is tempted to try and minimise any akusala (rather than just appreciate the importance of a moment of awareness of any presently arising dhamma). And awareness is seen by some as a way of `zapping' akusala. All without an idea of self or control of course ;-)) I do think that we should try to reduce "akusala behavior" and that the Buddha would not have promoted good behavior if it was *only awareness* that was being promoted, and not behavior as well. Buddha did not ever say "Go kill as many chickens as you like - when awareness arises naturally you will gain insight anyway." The suggestion is in the opposite direction. I think most people try to do this anyway. I don't think anyone in the group runs around trying to trip people so they can enjoy watching them fall down, or makes a regular habit of stealing. Probably the akusala we engage in is more subtle and on the mental level, or at least concerned with private activities, or sort of the normal things like drinking a little wine [a semi-medical activity of mine since the red wine reports...]. But I do think we should be moving in the right direction, however gradually. I also think we can have such an intention without an idea of control, but just of gradually moving in the right direction. After you've tried to control the current habits for a few decades I think you realize that it's not in your hands. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - #125715 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:30 pm Subject: Sila and the development of the path (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Hi Rob E (125674) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: There is no required minimum level of sila in order for an understanding of dhammas to begin to develop. Everyone starts from where they are. > > > > So for example, if a person who earns his living by slaughtering chickens hears the teachings on the development of the path for the first time in his present life and, by virtue of understanding accumulated in previous lives, understands what he has heard, his current occupation would be no obstacle to the arising of awareness of dhammas. > > RE: I don't disagree that such a moment could arise, and if it did, would not be stopped by his occupation. But if the man had that moment of understanding would he then continue to slaughter chickens? And if he did so, would he continue to develop kusala? It seems to me that a butcher who entered the path would either stop killing chickens or have an ongoing conflict. > =============== J: I think that speculation about the likelihood of this or that happening is of limited usefulness. The Dhamma principle involved is clear: only at the first stage of enlightenment (stream-entry) does the breach of the 5 precepts become no longer possible. In other words, only the sotapanna has perfect sila. The rest of us must develop the path with less than perfect (mostly, poor) sila. But lack of `good' sila is no obstacle to that. There's no onflict' between less-than-perfect sila and the development of the path. > =============== > RE: I don't think the Buddha ever proposed that the blind monk who stepped on the caterpillars would have been fine if he had stepped on the caterpillars purposely. And if someone keeps killing chickens intentionally after hearing the teachings, that would not be kusala, would it? Don't the teachings say to abstain from killing? > > On the other hand we all have various akusala arising all the time and all do actions we are not especially proud of. I agree with you that does not stop anyone from being on the path, although I think it may prevent progress past a certain point until such habits are dropped. Do you disagree? Can one go on killing chickens past the 1st, 2nd, 3rd stage of insight? Can the killing go on forever until one reaches the level where killing is impossible? > =============== J: As mentioned above, breach of any of the precepts is theoretically possible up until the first stage of enlightenment. Jon #125716 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: packing lists. nilovg Dear Alex, Op 27-jul-2012, om 19:28 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > A:How does sotapanna differ from ordinary good person? You say the > understanding of "anatta", but how does this understanding reflects > on sotapanna's behaviour? ------ N: Sati of the level of satipa.t.thaana arises naturally, more often. More awareness of his/her different cittas. Hiri and ottappa arise more often. Mettaa is more developped, with upekkhaa, impartiality. Treating others as friends, no matter who they are. All perfections that are needed for the attainment of enlightenment have been developed. Good qualities are purer when not taken for self. Thus, we can understand that the sotaapanna does not transgress any of the five precepts. All these good qualities did not arise suddenly but were developed during a long, long time, very gradually, with great patience and endurance, not expecting results. We all can begin with the development. ------ Nina. #125717 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:04 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 5, no 10. nilovg Dear friends, The sixth week the Buddha spent at the foot of the Mucalinda tree and the seventh week he spent at the Rjyatana tree. One afternoon we walked through the fields to the places which commemorate the sixth week and the seventh week. We had to walk six kilometers in the burning sun in order to reach the Rjyatana tree and six kilometers back. On the way we passed the place of the Mucalinda tree. One lady of our group had been sick during the journey but she was determined to complete her pilgrimage and also that afternoon she decided to come with us. In the morning she had already walked to the river Nerajar and that afternoon she walked with us, full of energy and endurance. The Dhamma gave her strength. Later on in Delhi she had to leave us and return to Thailand sooner, because of her sickness. A Thai monk, residing in the Thai temple of Bodhgaya guided us to the places. He walked in front with Venerable Bhikkhu Dhammadharo and the novice, Venerable Jetananda followed them; we walked behind in a long row. The Thai monk preached to us while we were walking and exhorted us to have energy and determination. On the way we talked about characteristics of nma and rpa, and mindfulness of them. We talked about the phenomena appearing at the present moment, while walking. We came first to the Mucalinda Pond, the place commemorating the sixth week after the Buddhas enlightenment. We read in the Vinaya (Mahvagga I, 2) that the Buddha sat cross-legged in one posture for seven days at the foot of the Mucalinda Tree, experiencing the bliss of freedom. At that time there was rainy weather and cold winds were blowing. Therefore, Mucalinda, the serpent king, encircled the Lords body seven times with his coils and spread a great hood over his head in order to protect him. At the end of that week, when the sky was clear again, he unwound his coils from the Lords body, assumed the form of a young man and paid respect to the Buddha. ****** Nina. #125718 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in speculative philosophy nilovg Dear Alex, Op 27-jul-2012, om 19:36 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > I believe that avijja means being deluded about 4NT which has > nothing to do with metaphysical speculations about what really, > really exists in "ultimate" sense. ------ N: In dukkha are included all conditioned phenomena, thus, naama and ruupa. "In short, the five khandhas are dukkha". What else are these but conditioned naama and ruupa? Nina. #125719 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:54 am Subject: [dsg] Re: packing lists. truth_aerator Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your reply. With best wishes, Alex #125720 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:12 am Subject: Conventional activities as part of the path (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: Regarding "the carrying out of conventional activities is part of the path", you seem to be saying that kusala of the level of sila is part of the path. Whereas to my understanding, only kusala of the level of awareness/vipassana bhavana constitutes path moment. > > > > RE: I can't generalize like that so easily. I mentioned specific areas of path that I believe are expressed through conventional activities, and it is the question of what role they play or do not play that I am speaking about here - not about sila as a general proposition. The Buddha said that we should engage in right speech. He did not say right speech was a dhamma, though it certainly has a corresponding set of mental states, but he did specifically speak of gossip, causing dissension, etc. Those are not dhammas, they are conventional actions. I would like to know how you deal with them, and if the Buddha says they are important things to avoid *doing,* is that not part of the path he laid out? > > =============== > > J: Yes, the advantages of avoiding akusala conduct is part of the teaching of the Buddha. However, in the texts the term `path' has a specific -- and limited -- meaning, and I think it's good to be aware of this. I think there's a question as to whether "path" only refers to understanding, and everything else is just sila. The "path" includes right action, right livelihood, right speech, etc. It is very difficult to imagine that "right speech" is not referring to speech itself but only a mental factor that for some reason is merely *called* speech, and that something as worldly as "right livelihood" is really just a mental factor but has nothing to do with what you do for a living. I don't think anyone would propose that *any* of the components of the Noble 8 Fold Path are not necessary to the completion of the path. They are all necessary. For someone to propose that "right livelihood" is a mental factor seems at least to fly in the face of what it means. When the Buddha talks about right livelihood he is talking about what you do for a living. Yes, you can do the right sort of work and have akusala mental factors "spoiling the broth," but I don't think there's any doubt that if a butcher heard the Buddha preach and wanted to follow him seriously, the Buddha would have told him to stop killing chickens for a living. Do you disagree? It is very hard to imagine that "right speech" has nothing to do with the act of speech but is only a mental factor. So the idea that the eight mental factors arise at the moment of enlightenment, and that the eight-fold path is *nothing* but that moment of arising does not accord with so many things that the Buddha said. Right speech, right action, right livelihood, are expressed in so many ways as having to do with what is done in the world. Causing dissension, spreading gossip, etc., do not exist merely as mental factors. They don't exist at all outside of the conventional activities that express them. So what about such things? How do you address them? If the Buddha says "a monk should not eat meat that has been specially killed and prepared for him" is that a mental factor? It is obviously an admonition regarding activity in the world. To say that the active part of right speech, right action and right livelihood are just "sila" and are not part of the path to enlightenment reduces the Noble 8 Fold path to a Noble 1-fold path of understanding only. I do not believe that is what the Buddha intended, and it doesn't accord with so much of what he said during his lifetime - not that I've read it all. But he did not suggest that the other 7 factors other than right understanding were only sila and not supporting factors of enlightenment. > The term `path' is used to connote the kusala that leads to escape from samsara, as distinct from those other kinds of kusala which lead to further rebirth in samsara (albeit in a happy realm). (For an elaboration on the 2 kinds of kusala, see the extract from Bhikkhu Bodhi quoted in my earlier message, requoted at the end of this message.) I understand the difference as regards kusala, but it does not suggest that the Noble 8 fold path is only a momentary series of mental factors and has nothing to do with all that the Buddha taught about them. Sila is one of the legs of the path. It's not a separate ineffective path. Without adequate sila, without eradicating defilements, the path of understanding can only go so far. The conditions that support understanding are built into the entire path, not just one part of it. > The term `path' also helps to distinguish the things taught by the Buddha that were (re-)discovered by him at the time of his enlightenment from those things taught by the Buddha but which were already known. The avoiding of akusala conduct falls within the latter group. > > If we are to regard *all kusala conduct* as part of the path then we would have to say that any person who has kusala speech is developing the path, even though the person may have never heard the Buddha's teaching (and perhaps holds strong beliefs that contradict those teachings). It is not that "all kusala conduct" is adequate to complete the path, which cannot be completed without right understanding, but it is a case of the right degree of kusala conduct being "necessary but not sufficient." The path cannot take place without sila, without all the factors of the path, but that does not mean that sila by itself will complete the path, as clearly it will not. However, there are those who perfected sila, as I recall, to the point that right understanding arose as a result. I cannot recall the passage but I believe I have seen it in sutta. Some follow the path of sila, some of concentration and some of direct understanding and at some point have to add the other factors. Even on the path of dry insight, without adequate sila I don't think it will lead to enlightenment. Do you disagree? > > =============== > > RE: Can someone gain right understanding while gossiping and causing dissension? I believe they cannot. If understanding were to arise at such a moment, that could happen, but such an arising would *stop* the proscribed activity. > > =============== > > J: The awareness of a presently arising dhamma can occur in the midst of strong akusala. That is not the point - as I suggested above, the behavior would change if awareness arose. One would not have awareness arise and keep gossiping or beating people up, would they? If only a moment of understanding arose, sure, maybe that could come and go without disrupting negative behavior or expression, but if a number of moments of understanding arose, I am sure the "bad behavior" could not continue. I can just imagine someone thinking "wow, great insight into the nature of reality is presently arising, but I'm still enjoying beating the living daylights out of this innocent person. And even better, I'm winning the fight!" > It is not the function of awareness/insight to "stop" presently arising akusala, but to understand the characteristic of the presently arising dhamma that is its object (which may or may not be the akusala mental state). Well I think talking about a single moment of awareness is fine for purposes of gradual accumulation, but obviously one would have to be at a point where awareness was arising regularly to change behavior, and I am sure at that point it would, whether that is its purpose or not. There are no reports of Buddha's advanced disciples running around stealing or beating people, or cursing at each other. That would not express their level of understanding and the suttas have mentioned such things on any number of occasions - the peace and equanimity that takes place, and the courtesy and awareness of others and how to behave around them among his followers. > > =============== > > RE: How can they [sila and bhavana] be separated? The same cetana that represents the mental state leads to the action. Kamma patha is of a much stronger degree when realized through speech or action, so they are significant for kamma. I think that understanding is also implicated when one acts out of ignorance. In addition, many mental states are not about right understanding, but are about what one thinks or what one wants to do. Cetana can be kusala without understanding, and then you would say it is with regard to sila, but many kusala mental states are also on the level of sila. So are they also not part of the path? I guess not...? > > > > I'm not sure about this separating sila from understanding and making them into two separate paths in essence. I don't think the Buddha spoke about them that way. I believe he said that jhana and meritorious actions led to the higher states. It seems to me that all kusala grows together, but maybe I don't understand how it works. > > =============== > > J: The performing of meritorious actions and the attaining of jhana is not something that is exclusive to the teaching of a Buddha. These things were known already. I think it's a mistake on that basis to think that they are not necessary and that any part of the path - explicitly taught to be so by the Buddha - can be dispensed with because people before him knew some version of that factor. It is not the same when it is taught as part of the Buddha's pathway to enlightenment. They are factors as taught by him. When the Buddha teaches jhana, he talks about the development of insight in conjunction with the jhana, or developing insight before or after the development of jhana. He doesn't talk of jhana in its own right as those before him did. So it is being re-understood as part of the Buddha's path - it's not the same as it was before. The Buddha clearly said that jhana is right concentration, thus part of *the path.* The fact that some dry-insight followers who have that propensity can gain right concentration in another context does not take away from that pronouncement by the Buddha himself. > What the Buddha discovered was the path that consists of insight into the true nature of presently arising dhammas, encapsulated in the teaching on the Noble Eightfold Path. Well I would say that the whole package as put together by the Buddha is quite unique. If he wanted to teach right understanding only with itself as its own only support, he would not have taught the Noble Eightfold path, but a one-fold path with eight subsidiary factors. This is not the way he spoke of it, and it is a strange collapsing of all that he said for forty years to reduce all that he said about the other factors to a few mental factors at the moment of enlightenment. > [A]ctions springing from the wholesome roots may be of two kinds, mundane and world-transcending. > > The mundane (lokiya) wholesome actions have the potential to produce a fortunate rebirth and pleasant results within the round of rebirths. > > The world-transcending or supramundane (lokuttara) wholesome actions -- namely, the kamma generated by developing the Noble Eightfold Path and the other aids to enlightenment -- lead to enlightenment and to liberation from the round of rebirths. This is the kamma that dismantles the entire process of kammic causation. I would like to know why the Buddha put forth so many stipulations of how to behave, act and speak if they are all not part of the real path. That does not make a lot of sense to me. What does make sense is to say that those actions that purify and appreciate merit are supporting factors for the development of understanding, and that is supported by much of what the Buddha himself said. Without sila and concentration, I don't see how right understanding cannot be sustained and developed, but maybe you don't see it that way. K. Sujin speaks of the importance of the perfections and of metta. She must think they are important supports for understanding too. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #125721 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:23 am Subject: Sila and the development of the path (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: I think that speculation about the likelihood of this or that happening is of limited usefulness. The Dhamma principle involved is clear: only at the first stage of enlightenment (stream-entry) does the breach of the 5 precepts become no longer possible. In other words, only the sotapanna has perfect sila. The rest of us must develop the path with less than perfect (mostly, poor) sila. But lack of `good' sila is no obstacle to that. There's no onflict' between less-than-perfect sila and the development of the path. Well, I never said that sila had to be perfect, but killing chickens is a long way off. There has to be some sila developed for the path to progress, does there not? Can one be in a perfect muck of defilement and have understanding not just arise, but develop? > > =============== > > RE: I don't think the Buddha ever proposed that the blind monk who stepped on the caterpillars would have been fine if he had stepped on the caterpillars purposely. And if someone keeps killing chickens intentionally after hearing the teachings, that would not be kusala, would it? Don't the teachings say to abstain from killing? > > > > On the other hand we all have various akusala arising all the time and all do actions we are not especially proud of. I agree with you that does not stop anyone from being on the path, although I think it may prevent progress past a certain point until such habits are dropped. Do you disagree? Can one go on killing chickens past the 1st, 2nd, 3rd stage of insight? Can the killing go on forever until one reaches the level where killing is impossible? > > =============== > > J: As mentioned above, breach of any of the precepts is theoretically possible up until the first stage of enlightenment. That wasn't really my question. I'm trying to establish whether sila and defilements are totally beside the point or not. If you are saying they have no effect on the path whatever, I'd like to know it if that is the case. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #125722 From: Ken O Date: Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:01 am Subject: Satipatthana 2 - Why Only Four? ashkenn2k Dear all Dispeller of Delusion 1017. If that is so, why are “foundations of mindfulness” in the plural? Because of the plurality of mindfulness. For that mindfulness is plural, corresponding to the different kinds of its object. 1018. But why are precisely four foundations of mindfulness stated by the Blessed One, no less, no more? Because of being beneficial to those capable of being taught. For as regards those who have the habit of craving, who have the habit of [wrong] view, who have the vehicle of tranquility and who have the vehicle of insight, each occurring in two forms by way of the slow-witted and quick-witted [as regards these,] for one having the habit of craving who is slow-witted, the coarse contemplation of the body as foundation of mindfulness is the path to purity, and for the quick-witted the subtle contemplation of feeling as foundation of mindfulness. Also for one having the habit of [wrong] view who is slow-witted the not greatly divided up contemplation of the mind as foundation of mindfulness is the path to purity, and for the quick-witted the greatly divided up contemplation of mental objects as foundation of mindfulness. And for one who has the vehicle of tranquility who is slow-wined, the first foundation of mindfulness is the path to purity because the sign is obtainable with little trouble, and for the quick-witted the second because of his not becoming steadied in a coarse object. Also for one who has the vehicle of insight who is slow-witted, the third which is not greatly divided up as to object, and for the quick-witted the fourth which is greatly divided up as to object. Thus four are stated, no less, no more. Commentary to Satipatthana Drawing distinctions, it is said: Body and feeling are the cause of zest [assadassa karana]. For the rejection of that zest of body, by the dull-witted [manda] man of the craving type [tanhacarita], the seeing [dassana] of the ugly [asubha] in the body, the coarse object [olarika arammana], which is the basis of craving [tanha vatthu], is convenient. To that type of man the contemplation on corporeality, the First Arousing of Mindfulness, is the Path to Purity [Visuddhi Magga]. For the abandoning of that zest, by the keen-witted [tikha] man of the craving type, the seeing of suffering in feeling, the subtle object [sukhuma arammana], which is the basis of craving, is convenient, and for him the contemplation on feeling, the Second Arousing of Mindfulness, is the Path to Purity. For the dull-witted man of the theorizing type [ditthi carita] it is convenient to see consciousness [citta] in the fairly simple way it is set forth in this discourse, by way of impermanence [aniccata], and by way of such divisions as mind-with-lust [saragadi vasena], in order to reject the notion of permanence [nicca sañña] in regard to consciousness. Consciousness is a special condition [visesa karana] for the wrong view due to a basic belief in permanence [niccanti abhinivesa vatthutaya ditthiya]. The contemplation on consciousness, the Third Arousing of Mindfulness, is the Path to Purity of this type of man. For the keen-witted man of the theorizing type it is convenient to see mental objects or things [dhamma], according to the manifold way set forth in this discourse, by way of perception, sense-impression and so forth [nivaranadi vasena], in order to reject the notion of a soul [atta sañña] in regard to mental things. Mental things are special conditions for the wrong view due to a basic belief in a soul [attanti abhinivesa vatthutaya ditthiya]. For this type of man the contemplation on mental objects, the Fourth Arousing of Mindfulness, is the Path to Purity. Consciousness and mental objects constitute the outstanding conditions of theorizing. Consciousness is such a condition because it is a decisive factor in the belief in permanence. Mental objects are such conditions because these are decisive factors in the belief in a soul. Consciousness and mental objects are decisive factors of craving as well as of theorizing. And body and feeling are decisive factors of theorizing as well as of craving. Yet to point out that which is stronger in body and feeling, namely, craving, and that which is stronger in consciousness and mental objects, namely, theorizing, distinctions have been drawn. Because he does not continue to stay in the coarse:The keen-witted man pursuing the path of quietude lays hold of the gross subject of meditation, but he does not stay in that. He lays hold of feeling, the subtle subject of meditation, by way of the factors of absorption [jhana] after attaining to and emerging from the absorption reached with the material body as subject. Since the heart of the man pursuing the path of insight takes to the contemplation of subtle consciousness and mental object, these have been spoken of as the Path to Purity for the man, dull-witted or keen-witted, pursuing insight. cheers KC #125723 From: Ken O Date: Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:35 am Subject: Satipatthana 2 - Why Only Four? (2) ashkenn2k Dear all Dispeller of Delusion 1019. Or alternatively, it is in order to abandon the perversions (vipallãsa) of the beautiful, the pleasant, the permanent and self. For the body is foul, and herein beings are perverted [into regarding it as beautiful] by the perversion of the beautiful. The first foundation of mindfulness is stated in order to abandon that perversion by showing them the foulness therein. And as regards feeling and so on, taken as “pleasant, permanent, self”, feeling is painful, mind is impermanent and mental objects are non-self. And beings are perverted as to these by the perversions of the pleasant, the permanent and self. The remaining three [foundations of mindfulness] are stated in order to abandon those perversions by seeing the pain, etc. therein. Thus they should alternatively be understood to be stated as four, no less, no more, in order to abandon the perversions of the beautiful, the pleasant, the permanent and self. 1020. And the four should be understood as stated not only in order to abandon the perversions but also in order to abandon the four floods, bonds, cankers, knots, clingings and wrong destinies, and in order to fully understand the four kinds of nutriment. This in the first place is the method of the Exposition(s). 1021. But in the Commentary this also is said: “The foundation of mindfulness is one only by way of both remembering and gathering together in unity and it is four by way of object [of meditation]”. Commentary to The Root of Existence (MN1) "Having perceived earth as earth" Cy. Having perceived earth thus with a perverted perception. The worldling afterwards conceives it. i.e.. construes or discriminates it, through the strengthened proliferating tendencies of craving, conceit and views, which are here called "conceiving". This accords with the statement “Concepts due to proliferation are grounded upon perception (Sn 874)". He apprehends it in diverse ways contrary (to reality); hence it is said: "He conceives earth. ” To show that conceiving by which he conceives it by a gross method, the twenty parts of the body such as head-hairs, body hairs. etc., may be mentioned as internal earth. The external earth may he understood through the passage Vbhaannga “What is the external earth dement? Whatever is external, and is hard, solid, hardness, the state of being hard, exterior, not kammically acquired such as iron, copper, lead, sliver ….. Sub. Cy. Panpancasankha = portions of panpanca. Because of these, beings are detained (papa) in samsara, i.e., delayed, thus these are "proliferating tendencies .” "Conceiving" (mannana): because of these, people conceive, i.e. misconstrue (parikappenti), things as "This is mine," etc. Craving, conceit, and views are referred lo here by two synonymous terms, "conceiving" and "proliferating tendencies." "He apprehends it ... contrary (to reality)": like the conceiving of views, the conceivings of craving and conceit also apprehend things contrary to reality—craving assuming the repulsive to be beautiful, conceit the inferior to be superior, etc. KC #125724 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:12 am Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 5, no 11. nilovg Dear friends, We then went to the Rjyatana Tree where we saw the remnant of a small stone post which King Asoka had erected in order to mark the importance of the place. When the Buddha was staying there two merchants, Tapussa and Bhallika, who had come from Ukkla, passed that place. A deva, who was a relative of them spoke to them: My good fellows, this Lord, having just (become) wholly awakened, is staying at the foot of the Rjyatana, go and serve that Lord with barley-gruel and honey-balls, and this will be a blessing and happiness for you for a long time. We read that the merchants approached the Buddha in order to offer this food, but that the Buddha did not have a bowl to receive the food in and therefore, the four Great Kings (devas) offered him four bowls made of rock crystal. Thus, the Buddha received the barley- gruel and honey-balls in a new bowl made of rock crystal. We then read: Then the merchants Tapussa and Bhallika, having found that the Lord had removed his hand from the bowl, having inclined their heads towards the Lords feet, spoke thus to the Lord: We, Lord, are those going to the Lord for refuge and to Dhamma; let the Lord accept us as lay-disciples gone for refuge for life from this day forth. Thus, these came to be the first lay-disciples in the world using the two- word formula. They did not use the three-word formula of refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha, because there was no Sangha at that time. In the Gradual Sayings(Book of the Ones, Ch XIV, f) it is said: Monks, chief among my disciples, lay-followers, of those who first took refuge (in my teaching), are the merchants Tapassu (in Burmese manuscript Tapussa) and Bhalluka. Yasas father (Vinaya, Mahvagga I, 7. 10) would be the first lay- disciple using the threefold formula, since the Sangha had been formed at that time, and countless people after him would take their refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. At this place we took refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. We paid respect with candles, incense and chanting. The taking of refuge at this place has a special significance when one commemorates the two merchants who were the first lay-followers to have confidence in the Buddha and his teaching and who expressed this confidence through taking refuge in the Buddha and the Dhamma for their whole life. We also want to express our confidence in the Buddhas teachings because we are developing satipatthna and we see the benefit of it in our lives. ****** Nina #125725 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:28 am Subject: Sila and the development of the path (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Hi Rob E (125721) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > RE: Well, I never said that sila had to be perfect, but killing chickens is a long way off. There has to be some sila developed for the path to progress, does there not? Can one be in a perfect muck of defilement and have understanding not just arise, but develop? > =============== J: There is no question of sila not being developed! If the path is being developed, there will also be the development of sila. But of course, a person proceeds from where they are in terms of level of sila. > =============== > > J: As mentioned above, breach of any of the precepts is theoretically possible up until the first stage of enlightenment. > > RE: That wasn't really my question. I'm trying to establish whether sila and defilements are totally beside the point or not. If you are saying they have no effect on the path whatever, I'd like to know it if that is the case. > =============== J: I can best answer this by going back to the comments of Bhikkhu Bodhi on the 2 kinds of kusala. As you will recall, he said: << << << [A]ctions springing from the wholesome roots may be of two kinds, mundane and world-transcending. The mundane (lokiya) wholesome actions have the potential to produce a fortunate rebirth and pleasant results within the round of rebirths. The world-transcending or supramundane (lokuttara) wholesome actions -- namely, the kamma generated by developing the Noble Eightfold Path and the other aids to enlightenment -- lead to enlightenment and to liberation from the round of rebirths. This is the kamma that dismantles the entire process of kammic causation. >> >> >> Kusala of the level of sila is kusala of the kind that will "produce a fortunate rebirth and pleasant results within the round of rebirths", while kusala of the level of vipassana is kusala that "leads to enlightenment and to liberation from the round of rebirths ... [and that] dismantles the entire process of kammic causation". So while sila is of course a great support for the development of the path, the two kinds of kusala are not to be confused. A moment of sila is not a moment of actual path development, whereas a moment of awareness/insight is. Nobody is saying that sila is `totally beside the point', but neither is there any minimum prerequisite in that regard. Without the development of the path, any development of sila leads only to future rebirth, not to liberation from the round of rebirths. As regards the presence of defilements, which you also ask about, it is clear from the Satipatthana Sutta that defilements can be the object of awareness. Indeed, if defilements are not the object of awareness, the accumulated latent tendency to take them for self could never be eradicated. Jon #125726 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:25 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (3) glenjohnann Hello Phil I appreciate all of your excerpts from SPD - and particularly this one. ALso appreciate your comments. Hope your trip to Canada is going well - and that there are opportunities for good visits with family and friends. Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Dear group, > > > Chapter 7 of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket continued: > > "It seems that we are all living together in the same world. However, in reality all the different ruupas (material phenomena) that appear through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysend and mind, all those different phenomena, could not appear and be of such importance if there were no citta, the element that experiences them. Since citta experiences the objects that appear throug the sense-doors and through the mind-door, the world of each person is ruled by his citta. > Which world is better: the world where a great deal of wholesomeness has been accumulated, so that kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity can arise, or the world of hatred, anger and displeasure? > Different people may meet the same person and know the same things about him, but the world of each one of them will evolve with loving-kindness or with aversion, depending on the power of the citta that has accumulated different inclinations in the case of each person." (51) > > (end of passage) > > Phil adds: Which world is better? The world of wholesomeness of course. But the most important thing is to understand whatever reality arises. A. Sujin asked a kind of dangerous question above, because people who misunderstand Dhamma might believe that the point is to rush towards kusala without understanding that if kusala has not been accumulated, kusala will not result. Any intentional effort to have kusala will result in akusala through lobha and moha rooted cittas. We have to wisely understand whatever reality arises, if we run away from akusala we are just running deeper into akusala. > Wisely understanding akusala is in itself a moment of kusala, that is the only way kusala can develop, through understanding. This is the sort of subtle point that made the Buddha hesitate to teach in the world because he knew, even thousands of years ago, that his teaching went against the way of the world now. How much more now in the age of personal accomplishment and striving for self fulfillment though 40 day retreats and so on? We are lucky to have a teacher who gets at the subtlety of Dhamma... > > I'm off to Canada, this series will continue in a few weeks, I won't have my book with me. > > phil > #125727 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:51 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 5, no 12. nilovg Dear friends, On the way back it was very hot and I became thirsty. My former Thai teacher gave me the last drop of water from her bottle. Throughout our journey all people were most generous and helpful. They were attentive to the needs of others day and night. The two doctors in our group gave medicines to everyone who had a stomach ailment until their supply was exhausted towards the end of the journey. The leader of our group, Khun Suwat, took care of all our material needs. He arranged for our food on the way and saw to it that the monks and the novice had their meals in time, before midday, and he took care so that nobody ever went hungry. When we could not have a picnic in a wood or field he managed to find a room, for example, in the back of a shop where he provided cardboard lunchboxes for us, complete with forks and spoons. Such a room suddenly became a delightfil place when there was an opportunity for a Dhamma converstaion. In this way any place was delightful throughout our journey. We stayed for two days in the guest-quarters of the Thai temple in Bodhgaya. Venerable Bhikkhu Dhammadharo was so impressed by the holy places. He repeated aloud the text: Iti pi so Bhagava..., meaning: the Blessed One is such since he is accomplished, fully enlightened... He deeply considered this text which refers to the cause of the Buddhas enlightenment. We have to think of all the aeons he accumulated as a Bodhisatta wisdom and all good qualities, the perfections, so that he could become a Sammsambuddha. He taught Dhamma out of compassion, also for us now. Several times a day we went to the Bodhi-tree where we paid respect, walked around or had Dhamma conversations. As a sign of respect we sprinkled water over the roots of the Bodhi-tree and I remembered to extend the merit to all beings who were able to rejoice in our kusala. ****** Nina. #125728 From: "azita" Date: Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:08 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland gazita2002 Hallo Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Azita, I think our friend from Vietnam said she was also visiting Bkk end Sept. How long will you be staying in Thailand? azita: In Thailand for about 2 months. Is yr friend going to the Foundation? Patience, courage and good cheer azita #125729 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is the characteristic of citta that can be known in daily life? nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 23-jul-2012, om 7:10 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > What is the characteristic of citta? ------- N: It clearly cognizes an object. It is accompanied by several cetasikas that each perform their own function with regard to the object, but citta is the leader in knowing an object. ------- > > L: All what appers, comes due to citta? But how citta can be known > in daily life? ------- N: If there were no citta nothing could appear. Colour, sound, all objects could not appear. How can citta be known. Kh S would say: now, just now. Is there no experience of visible object? It is not self who experiences this, but a citta, seeing. It is difficult to eliminate the "I" from the seeing, we are so used to the idea of I see. But through listening and considering there can be more understanding. --------- > > L: I am listening Dhamma quite a bit last days, but the right > understanding of the characteristic of citta never arises. What is > the way to understand this characteristic of citta? ------ N: Just now there may still be an idea of I am listening, I understand. Or an idea of wishing to understand. This hinders, it is the function of pa~n~naa that arises because of its own conditions, not because we want it to arise. There is no other way but listening and considering more, we did not listen and consider enough. Think of the innumerable lives of ignorance. Nina. #125730 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:54 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > L: I think Dhamma friendship is the most important. I always like to be associated with wise friends in Dhamma. But not always I can choose were the life throw me. > > This is always easy to say for me, like of vipaka and than jaavanas, but when times come this is often and mostly like just mere words to me. .... S: Vipaka is just seeing, hearing and so on. Kusala and akusala vipaka all the time. There can be Dhamma association anytime at all - depends on the way of thinking in the javanas - wisely or unwisely. ... > > In few days I am going to my friend Luraya, and we going with her mom to Alps together. And I am tottaly scared how it will be. So scared to meet her. How to do to be accepted to make good impresion on her family, so scared. I am always not good in this socializing things. But I am so worried and affraid, like what Luraya will think of me, how I behave in different situations. If I really have a strenght to be a nice guy etc. How will I feel far from home, without my own money, depending on others. If I get enought food? etc. All so much self involved. .... S: Yes, sounds like a lot of ME! How about appreciating the kindness and generosity shown to you for a start. When we think of others' needs instead of our own, socializing is easy - putting others at ease instead of thinking of our own ease all the time... Like when you plan for everyone's comfort and well-being in Poland, no fear or concern about impressions or your stomach at such times:-) ... >And this is all dukkha, ... S: I would say it's just akusala thinking. Remember, all conditioned dhammas are dukkha. ... >but i know it only intelectual understanding. In such moments I feel like having more support from my Dhamma friends here. ... S: Remember we'll just be reminding you about metta and other kinds of kusala and no matter what, there can be awareness and understanding of the reality appearing, one world at a time, anytime. Hope you have a lovely trip. I think it would be a great idea for you and Luraya to brainstorm and make some lists of qus and issues to raise during the discussions in Poland. The more the better. Write them all down in a notebook. Helpful for everyone. Metta Sarah ====== #125731 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -viriya 1 - welfare for the householders moellerdieter Dear Sarah, the issue of bojjhanga is quite important , so I will refer only to that , coming back to the other points later. you wrote: (D: yes, it has to begin with mindfulness , the first of the 7 links to enlightenment.) ... S: With understanding, mindfulness and the other factors. They develop together. ... D: hm.... just to recall the 7 (Buddh.Dict.) a.. bojjhanga 'the 7 factors of enlightenment', are: a.. mindfulness (sati-sambojjhanga; s. sati), b.. investigation of the law (dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga), c.. energy (viriya-sambojjhanga; s. viriya, padhana), d.. rapture (piti-sambojjhanga, q.v.) e.. tranquility (passaddhi-sambojjhanga, q.v.), f.. concentration (samadhi-sambojjhanga, q.v.), g.. equanimity (upekkha). "Because they lead to enlightenment, therefore they are called factors of enlightenment" (S. XLVI, 5). Though in the 2nd factor, dhamma-vicaya, the word dhamma is taken by most translators to stand for the Buddhist doctrine, it probably refers to the bodily and mental phenomena (nama-rupa-dhamma) as presented to the investigating mind by mindfulness, the 1st factor. With that interpretation, the term may be rendered by 'investigation of phenomena'. D: I suppose a thundering Yes ! ... but frankly speaking I miss the substantiation for a different interpretation than ' by most translators'. 'In A.X.102, the 7 factors are said to be the means of attaining the threefold wisdom (s. tevijja).''In Brahmanism means 'knower of the 3 Vedas' (tri-vidya), in Buddhism means one who has realised 3 kinds of knowledge, to wit: a.. remembrance of former rebirths, b.. the divine eye, c.. extinction of all cankers. ' D:The sutta doesn't refer to the three characteristics of life , ti-lakkhana , which could have allowed above interpretation 'They may be attained by means of the 4 foundations of mindfulness (satipatthana), as it is said in S.XLVI.1 and explained in M.118: a.. (1) "Whenever, o monks, the monk dwells contemplating the body (kaya), feeling (vedana), mind (citta) and mind-objects (dhamma), strenuous, clearly-conscious, mindful, after subduing worldly greed and grief, at such a time his mindfulness is present and undisturbed; and whenever his mindfulness is present and undisturbed, at such a time he has gained and is developing the factor of enlightenment 'mindfulness' (sati-sambojjhanga), and thus this factor of enlightenment reaches fullest perfection. b.. (2) "Whenever, while dwelling with mindfulness, he wisely investigates, examines and thinks over the law ... at such a time he has gained and is developing the factor of enlightenment 'investigation of the law' (dhamma-vicaya) .... D:'investigates, examines and thinks over the law vs : the term may be rendered by 'investigation of phenomena'. The majority of translators may refute the latter as an unfounded restriction.. a.. (3) "Whenever, while wisely investigating his energy is firm and unshaken ... at such a time he has gained and is developing the factor of enlightenment 'energy' (viriya) .... b.. (4) "Whenever in him, while firm in energy, arises super sensuous rapture ... at such a time he has gained and is developing the factor of enlightenment 'rapture' (piti) .. c.. (5) "Whenever, while enraptured in mind, his body and his mind become composed ... at such a time he has gained and is developing the factor of enlightenment 'tranquillity' (passaddhi). d.. (6) "Whenever, while being composed in his body and happy, his mind becomes concentrated ... at such a time he has gained and is developing the factor of enlightenment 'concentration' (samadhi) e.. (7) "Whenever he looks with complete indifference on his mind thus concentrated ... at such a time he has gained and is developing the factor of enlightenment 'equanimity' (upekkha). D: above states in respect to each of the 7 factors 'whenever.. at such a time ' . It is not clear to me what you mean by 'With understanding, mindfulness and the other factors. They develop together'. with Metta Dieter #125732 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:11 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, (& Ken H) Just came across #125094 which you partly addressed to me... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > >KH: Why was that monk not blamed by the Buddha? Was it because he did not intentionally kill anything? I don't think so. He intentionally walked even though there was a caterpillar plague and walking would, in his case, inevitably mean killing. So it was the same thing. > >R: I'm not sure if you can draw that conclusion. ... S: I don't agree with Ken H there either. He was not blamed because he did not intentionally kill. This is quite different from knowing that inevitably when we walk down a path, dig the earth or breathe the air that insects will be harmed. The Buddha did not follow the Jain approach because it all comes down to the intention to harm, dose-rooted cittas. ... >The fact that the monk was blind has something to do with the story, and it is his blindness that made it impossible for him to navigate without killing the caterpillars. There is usually a practical understanding in Buddhism that there are certain extreme conditions that cannot be met. One can drink alcohol as part of a medicinal potion, but not for recreation. One can't kill intentionally but one can be forgiven for killing when it is unavoidable. Could the monk live without walking anywhere? What was the alternative? .... S: The precepts are not "cans" and can'ts" - they are a description of particular cittas, particular intentions, kamma patha and the consequences of such. With regard to alcohol, there is not necessarily any akusala kamma patha involved at all. The harm is in the accumulation and leading to breaking the other precepts, more akusala kamma patha. ... > >R: In Jainism those who are orthodox wear a net over their face so they won't accidentally inhale small insects and kill them. Buddhism rejects this kind of extreme. ... S: Exactly - because it is looking at situations rather than intentions. .... > > >K: The monk was not blamed because he had right understanding. He knew in ultimate reality there were no caterpillars, no monks, and no physical activities. There were only dhammas, rising and falling by conditions, beyond anyone's control. ... S: He may or may not have had any understanding at all, but it still remains true that if there were no intention to harm or kill, there was no blame, regardless of any understanding. .... > >R: If this explanation was true, then you would be asserting that someone with right view can kill another person without any blame or kamma. I don't believe this is the case. What is good for the caterpillar is good for any being. It's just a matter of degree. > > >K: In explanations of satipatthana it is always wrong view or right view that is blamed or praised, it is never a permanent, controlling, being. .... S: Wrong view, right view, kusala and akusala intentions and cittas of all kinds. There can be kusala intention with no understanding and there can be akusala intention with no wrong view. Whilst walking down the path, most the time there is just ignorance and attachment, but this doesn't mean there's any intention to kill or harm. ... > >R: And yet definite conventional actions are praised and blamed by the Buddha, and I believe that this aspect of Dhamma is meant to be taken seriously, as I believe does Rob K. I think you are wrong on this one. There is no controlling person, but actions still have consequences. ... S: You've continued to have an interesting discussion with Jon on this topic. It is always just dhammas that can be understood - cittas, cetasikas and rupas appearing now, one at a time. Metta Sarah ==== #125733 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Problems in life. sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, Another one, #125085, that was partly addressed to me. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > >Rob K: IMHO the insect exterminator would be making akusala. I would never advise him to stop his job - heaven forbid-in fact please make him the pre-eminent insect exterminator in the country. > >Rob E: It seems to me that this continues an unresolved issue about conventional activities. Ken H. is correctly following his very strict understanding that paramatha dhammas and kusala and akusala have *nothing* to do with conventional activities and events as we experience them in everyday life. *Nothing,* because there is no relation between what are pure concepts, such as killing an insect, performing an abortion, or finding the mind connected to the brain, and actual paramatha dhammas, which are merely kusala or akusala dhammas that arise in a single individual moment. .... S: I think the point is that there are only paramattha dhammas. Anything else is a 'story'. .... >R: I agree with what I think is Rob K.'s view. It does not make sense to me to say you can be a Buddhist simply by understanding dhammas, without any regard to whether you are killing beings or not, drinking, engaging in wrong livelihood, wrong speech and action, etc. in everyday life. ... S: "Simply by understanding dhammas...." What else is there to understand? Whatever the activity, there are only dhammas. Understanding these dhammas more and more precisely when they arise, when they appear is the only way that akusala of all kinds can ever be eradicated. Understanding is the forerunner, the leader, just like the dawn. ... > Maybe this issue could be raised with K. Sujin? .... S: Sure. Could you write a two or three line qu of exactly what you'd like to ask her. I'll be glad to raise it. Metta Sarah ==== #125734 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:25 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, #125088 - (for some reason I had mislaid a bunch of posts and just come across them on return to HK. I think they came in just before I left.) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > I think a doctor who is required to perform abortions is in the same boat as the blind monk (in the suttas) who walked on caterpillars. .... S: Depends on the intentions. Different moments, different intentions. If there is no intention to harm or kill, there is no blame. It's the hire and ottappa which will see the shame in harming a living being. ... > > Why was that monk not blamed by the Buddha? Was it because he did not intentionally kill anything? I don't think so. ... S: I do. There are so many similar examples in the Vinaya. .... >He intentionally walked even though there was a caterpillar plague and walking would, in his case, inevitably mean killing. So it was the same thing. ... S: As Rob E mentioned, this would be a Jain approach if one were to avoid walking because of inevitable deaths of insects or wear a net over one's face. It's the intention that counts. Metta Sarah ==== #125735 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:31 pm Subject: Re: 2007 audio - 20. Seclusion now! sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > S: Back to the seclusion and "how about now?", we know that references to the forest like in the satipatthana Sutta are referring to ... > > > > KS: One is already there. > > I hope this is not taken the wrong way, but this is very 'zen.' In a good way... The idea that the teaching is realized in the moment and that there is only the reality of this moment is an approach that I think is shared by K. Sujin with the zen masters. I'm sure everything else is very different, but I find it pretty neat, from opposite ends of the spectrum. ... S: Yes, I know what you mean. A good friend refers to the "Manjushri sword" when K.Sujin responds - same idea. Back to this moment, cutting through the stories. .... > > In one zen story, the monk is chastised for saying that a 'bird has flown away' because he is thinking about the past event and the absence of the bird rather than the reality of the moment. > > The moment of thinking can also be known as such, but I don't think the zen master would disagree with that either. ... S: Right. We all agree on the present moment, but we have to be more and more precise about what the present moment, the present dhamma is. So, not enough to say "be aware now", must be 'be aware of seeing, visible object, hardness......whatever appears now". The clear distinction between namas and rupas can only be known in this way - by knowing particular dhammas that appear. ... > Anyway, I will now go hide... ... S: Pls don't!! to be contd.....dashing out now for an appointment.... Metta Sarah ==== #125736 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:20 pm Subject: Conventional activities as part of the path (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Hi Rob E (125720) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > RE: Sila is one of the legs of the path. It's not a separate ineffective path. Without adequate sila, without eradicating defilements, the path of understanding can only go so far. The conditions that support understanding are built into the entire path, not just one part of it. > =============== J: Regarding, "without eradicating defilements, the path of understanding can only go so far", I understand the position to be the other way around, namely, that without the development of understanding of dhammas, there can never be the eradication of defilements. Eradication of defilements is a function of the path consciousness, both mundane (i.e., moments of awareness/insight) and supramundane (i.e., at each of the stages of enlightenment). This is the significance of the passage from the Visuddhimagga (Ch XXIII) that I quoted recently, which explains that the first among the `benefits in developing understanding' is the removal of various defilements. Here is the passage again: "2. Herein, it should be understood that one of the benefits of the mundane development of understanding is the removal of the various defilements beginning with [mistaken] view of individuality. This starts with the delimitation of mentality-materiality. Then one of the benefits of the supramundane development of understanding is the removal, at the path moment, of the various defilements beginning with the fetters." > =============== > RE: The path cannot take place without sila, without all the factors of the path, but that does not mean that sila by itself will complete the path, as clearly it will not. However, there are those who perfected sila, as I recall, to the point that right understanding arose as a result. I cannot recall the passage but I believe I have seen it in sutta. Some follow the path of sila, some of concentration and some of direct understanding and at some point have to add the other factors. Even on the path of dry insight, without adequate sila I don't think it will lead to enlightenment. Do you disagree? > =============== J: Regarding, "there are those who perfected sila, as I recall, to the point that right understanding arose as a result", I think you may be mistaken here. For a start, it is right understanding that perfects sila, and only at the stage of stream-entry does sila become perfected. While sila can be developed to a high degree, without right understanding/the development of the path the accumulated latent tendencies for akusala remain unaffected and will at some stage manifest and lead to conduct that is cause for rebirth in a lower plane. The cycle of vipaka, kilesa and [akusala] kamma cannot be broken. Kusala conduct is kusala conduct regardless of whether the person has heard the teachings or not. A person who has never heard the teachings (and who, for example, believes in salvation through prayer) can develop sila to a high degree and also the jhanas. Surely it could not be said that such a person is on the Buddha's path? Regarding, "Even on the path of dry insight, without adequate sila I don't think it will lead to enlightenment. Do you disagree?", I think that if a person who is developing the path his sila is necessarily 'adequate', and indeed will be much stronger that it would have been if he were not developing the path. > =============== > > J: The awareness of a presently arising dhamma can occur in the midst of strong akusala. > > RE: That is not the point - as I suggested above, the behavior would change if awareness arose. One would not have awareness arise and keep gossiping or beating people up, would they? If only a moment of understanding arose, sure, maybe that could come and go without disrupting negative behavior or expression, but if a number of moments of understanding arose, I am sure the "bad behavior" could not continue. I can just imagine someone thinking "wow, great insight into the nature of reality is presently arising, but I'm still enjoying beating the living daylights out of this innocent person. And even better, I'm winning the fight!" > =============== J: I agree that when there is awareness/insight (i.e., the development of the path), sila will also be developed. The person who understands the path also appreciates the value of sila, in fact moreso that does the person who is not developing the path. That is not the same as saying, however, that "bad behaviour" necessarily ceases in the person who is developing the path. There is no principle of the teachings that behaviour has to be of a certain level in order for the development of the path to proceed. > =============== > RE: Well I think talking about a single moment of awareness is fine for purposes of gradual accumulation, but obviously one would have to be at a point where awareness was arising regularly to change behavior, and I am sure at that point it would, whether that is its purpose or not. There are no reports of Buddha's advanced disciples running around stealing or beating people, or cursing at each other. That would not express their level of understanding and the suttas have mentioned such things on any number of occasions - the peace and equanimity that takes place, and the courtesy and awareness of others and how to behave around them among his followers. > =============== J: Regarding, "There are no reports of Buddha's advanced disciples running around stealing or beating people, or cursing at each other", that may well be so, but the question we're discussing is whether it is part of the teaching of the Buddha that there must be the development of sila to a certain (as yet unspecified) degree if the development of insight is to proceed. I don't believe there is such a principle expounded by the Buddha. Jon #125737 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:20 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 5, no 13. nilovg Dear friends, We visited the Abbot of the Thai temple and presented to him the recordings with The Lives and Psalms of the Buddhas Disciples, composed by Khun Amara Chayabongse. Inspired by the Thera-ther- gth (Psalms of the Brothers and Sisters) she wrote in a very lively way about men and women in the Buddhas time who proved in their daily life that the Path can be developed and enlightenment be attained. She read these talks with an accompaniment of Indian music which emphasized the words in a very effective way. Seated in the temple we listened to her story about Ambapli who had been a courtesan but who attained arahatship after she had contemplated the impermanence in her own ageing body. We listened to the quotation from the text of the Thergth (LXVI): Glossy and black as the down of the bee my curls once clustered. They with the waste of the years are liker to hempen or bark cloth. Such and not otherwise runneth the rune, the word of the Soothsayer. Further on the poem says: Gleamed as I smiled my teeth like the opening buds of the plaintain. They with the waste of the years are broken and yellow as barley. So and not otherwise runneth the rune, the word of the Soothsayer. The poem ends as follows: Such has this body been. Now age-weary and weak and unsightly, Home of manyfold ills; old house whence the mortar is dropping. So and not otherwise runneth the rune, the word of the Soothsayer. Afterwards we talked about old age. We all are subject to old age. So long as we are in the cycle of birth and death we cannot escape old age. When we notice bodily changes it can remind us at that moment to be mindful of nma and rpa. Thus, we shall be less inclined to take the body for self; we shall have wise attention instead of attachment to the body or aversion from old age. The Buddha found the way leading to freedom from birth, old age, sickness and death. ******** Nina. #125738 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Aug 1, 2012 2:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -viriya 1 - welfare for the householders moellerdieter Dear Sarah, continue .. you wrote S: At a moment of seeing, the experiencing of visible object is "All" that exist at that moment. D: the 'All' is a constant stream of rising and ceasing (senses) phenomena . Attention towards a visible object , the citta eye-consciousness, does not mean other objects / the other senses media don't exist. The stream is real , but our reality appears to be only that, we our conscious of ( in fact only a very small quantity out of available millions of passing phenomena , which are sub-conscious ). By the unexpected we are reminded on a choice among the many... I stumbled recently upon a statement of a neuro-scientist : 99 % of the present is provided by memory , only 1 % are added by the senses. Recalling SN 35,145 : 'Now what, monks, is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. This is called old kamma.' both seem to me to correspond.. Eye-ear--etc. -consciousness is past in a sense that what we are aware of is already 'further down the stream' , at least a quarter of a second acc. to cognitive science. Hence :'And what is new kamma? Whatever kamma one does now with the body, with speech, or with the intellect: This is called new kamma' The re-action , cetasika , by which the citta is 'coloured' S: Satipatthana has to develop now when there has been the clear understanding of present realities. D: I would put it like :the understanding of realities is possible with the development of mindfulness . ( second and first link of bojjhanga) S:To realise the unconditioned dhamma, the only way is the development of satipatthana, this is the Path. D: the all of dhammas is conditioned , we may speak of the unconditioned (dhatu) = nibbana (> D: I wonder whether there is only a difference how to say it .. > The understanding of present realities , dhammas or phenomena of the 6 senses media (the All) needs the framework of what/where to pay attention to , i.e. in respect to body ,feeling,mind and mindobjects. > This means to train oneself by contemplation of the foundation as laid down by the Maha Satipatthana sutta , Abhidhamma enhences the base , providing more details. ... S: The understanding of these dhammas develops as a result of hearing and wisely considering - not by paying special attention, focussing, selecting objects or any other attempt to have awareness and understanding arise. The training is the development of understanding of dhammas as anatta. D: we are not close ... S:Like now - it is only seeing, a citta, which experiences visible object. It is just the reality at this moment, no self involved at all. it's useless to try and be aware of seeing, but awareness can arise anytime at all when its nature has been understood. D: the reality of the moment runs within the process of D.O. .. and this stream is going on until the last remainder of the taints is abolished. Mana , self conceit, only - as you know- at the entrance of Arahantship. Anatta must be realized , the intellectual understanding is only the steps towards it. I did not say to try and be aware of seeing .. but to have an 'overview' what are the 'dimensions ' we are/can be aware, mindful of, i.e. the big 4 od Satpatthana. It is re-cognition what we learnt by that 'overview' (Maha Satipatthana sutta) which allows in daily life only seeing, hearing ,etc. > D: there is no real interruption of samsara , only that 'new cards ' meet the history (avijja sankhara) ... S: Yes, 'new cards' each moment, arising and falling away.... D: yes, each moment different cards are being played ( those in the hands ).. at death ..game over , cards shuffled ..and dealt , new game ..birth. to be continued.. with Metta Dieter #125739 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Aug 1, 2012 9:46 am Subject: Re: Problems in life. kenhowardau Hi Sarah and Rob E, ----- >> KH: Why was that monk not blamed by the Buddha? Was it because he did not intentionally kill anything? I don't think so. >> > S: I do. There are so many similar examples in the Vinaya. ------ KH: I'm not sure what either of us is referring to there. Perhaps I was trying to say to Rob E that the Buddha taught satipathana. He didn't teach, for example, the absence of akusala without satipathana. So I think I was saying the blind monk's absence of akusala was not a commonplace absence. It was in fact an absence that was due to the Path. I was suggesting that the monk might have been an ariyan, and the non-arising of akusala kamma patha was due to the destruction (complete or partial) of defilements. -------------- >> KH: He intentionally walked even though there was a caterpillar plague and walking would, in his case, inevitably mean killing. So it was the same thing. >> > S: As Rob E mentioned, this would be a Jain approach if one were to avoid walking because of inevitable deaths of insects or wear a net over one's face. It's the intention that counts. --------------- KH: As I was saying to Rob, in ultimate reality there was *no akusala kamma patha.* So our conventional stories of what happened should reflect that ultimate reality. It's hard and I think even the monk's friends found it hard to think of a story in which someone could walk down a caterpillar infested track without being in some way malicious or irresponsible. Can you think of a suitable conventional explanation? I know we all drive our cars, for example, knowing full well that insects are going to be accidentally killed. We take it for granted that there is nothing wrong no unwholesome intention involved in doing that, but isn't it just a matter of degree? If people (instead of mere insects) were inevitably going to be accidentally killed every time we drove our cars, would we still be excused for doing so? Ken H #125740 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 1, 2012 7:23 pm Subject: Re: Self-Correction Re: [dsg] Khandhas - audio extract KK 2011 sarahprocter... Dear Howard & Alex, >________________________________ > From: "upasaka@..." -------------------------- >HCW: >Yes, that is the main reading, namely that of >mass/bulk/category/group/collection. However, I have seen a secondary meaning given in the PTS >dictionary (that I looked up an hour or so ago) that also applies 'khandha' to >the *members* of a group. So, that usage is acceptable as well, and I stand >corrected on this. (It would not be normal English usage, but we are >dealing with meanings of a Pali word, not an English one.) >---------------------------------------------------------- S: Yes, "meanings of a Pali word, not an English one" Let's look at SN 48 (Bodhi transl): "At Saavatthii. 'Bhikkhus, I will teach you the five aggregates and the five aggregates subject to clinging. Listen to that........ 'And what, bhikkhus, are the five aggregates? Whatever kind of form there is, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near: this is called the form aggregate.'" [S: in other words, any past rupa is rupa khandha, any future rupa is rupa khandha, any rupa arising now is rupa khandha and so on. Each rupa shares the characteristics of being rupa with each other rupa, therefore each one is rupa khandha.] " 'Whatever kind of feeling there is....perception....volitional formations... whatever kind of consciousness there is, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near: this is called the consciousness aggregate. These, bhikkhus, are called the five aggregates.' " [S: Again, any kind of feeling is vedana khandha. Pleasant feeling is vedana khandha, unpleasant feeling, past feeling, subtle feeling.....each one vedana khandha. Same for different perceptions, other cetasikas or kinds of consciousness. Seeing is vinnana khandha, hearing, smelling, thinking - each kind of citta is vinnana khandha, sharing the nature of vinnana/citta with each other one.] "' And what, bhikkhus, are the five aggregates subject to clinging? Whatever kind of form there is, whether past, future, or present.....far or near, that is tainted, that can be clung to: this is called the form aggregate subject to clinging.' " [S: If a past rupa, such as a past visible object, was clung to, it was upadana khandha. If visible object or sound now is clung to, it is upadana khandha. Here the text is referring to realities, rupas which are the objects of attachment, not to "categories" or "groups". It means any kind of rupa at all, any rupa khandha. The same applies to all other kinds of khandhas.] Metta Sarah ===== #125741 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Aug 1, 2012 7:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Khandhas - audio extract KK 2011 sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > I suggest to agree what Howard previously suggested ; it is a matter of speech. > Strictly speaking , making a difference between realities (dhammas ) and concept (khandha, a group of specified dhammas)... .... S: Can you find me any quote from the Tipitaka or ancient commentaries (not Nyantiloka - there are some errors in the dictionary) which suggests khandhas are concepts and not realities (dhammas)? When the suttas repeatedly refer to the understanding of khandhas as anicca, dukkha and anatta, are they referring to concepts as being anicca, dukkha and anatta or to realities(dhammas) as having these ti-lakkhana, do you think? Metta Sarah ===== #125742 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 1, 2012 8:08 pm Subject: What I heard: Equanimity. nilovg Dear friends, I heard this morning from a Thai recording: The Brahma vihaara of upekkhaa. This is tatramajjhattataa cetasika. As a Brahma vihaara it has a being as object. When someone is beyond help we can consider that everyone is heir to kamma, that he receives the result of his kamma. That will help one to have less aversion. Kh Sujin said that we should consider more kamma and result. Where does the body come from? It is kamma that produces eyesense, earsense and the other senses. Seeing and hearing arise and these are results of kamma. Bodily wellbeing and bodily misery are results of kamma. If we really understand this we shall not be disturbed by the results of kamma. --------- Nina. #125743 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 1, 2012 8:12 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 6, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, The account which is given does not tell us whether the Buddha also saw us today who listen to his teachings and develop the Path. He was an omniscient Buddha and Enlightened Ones can by their omniscience know everything they direct their attention to. As we read in the VIsuddhimagga(Ch VII, 29, note 7): All dhammas are available to the adverting of the Enlightened One, the Blessed One, are available to his wish, are available to his attention, are available to his thought. ((Ps. II, 195) And the Blessed Ones knowledge that has past and future as its objective field is entirely actual experience since it is devoid of assumption based on inference, tradition or conjecture. Out of compassion he surveyed the world with the eye of an Awakened One and out of compassion he was going to teach Dhamma. He who was from grief released had compassion for the peoples sunken in grief, oppressed with birth and age. The Buddha wanted to teach Dhamma first to his former teacher lra the Klma, but he had passed away seven days ago, as a deva told the Buddha. The Buddha then wanted to teach Dhamma to Uddaka, but he had passed away the night before. The Buddha decided then to teach the five monks who had been his attendants and who were staying now near Varns at Isipatana in the deerpark. On the way to Isipatana the Buddha met Upaka, the naked ascetic, whom he told that he had destroyed all defilements. Upaka shook his head and took a different road. When the five monks saw the Buddha from far they decided not to attend to him. They believed that he had reverted to a life of abundance since he had accepted solid food from Sujt. But when the Buddha came near they changed their mind and attended to him. The Buddha explained to them that the two extremes of addiction to sense pleasures and of self-torment should be avoided and that the Middle Way should be followed which is the eightfold Path (Vinaya, Mahvagga I, 6. 17, 18). He then explained to them the four noble Truths. Thus, he set rolling the Wheel of Dhamma. In Sarnath, which is the site of the first sermon, we saw the great Stupa, erected on top of an older stupa, and excavations of old structures which were once the monks dwellings. The Chinese pilgrims Fa Hian (beginning of the fifth century) and Hiuen Tsang (640) who gave accounts of their pilgrimages to the Buddhist sites, also described Sarnath and the monuments they saw there. Hiuen Tsang described the whole monastery as he saw it with fifteen hundred monks, a vihara, a statue of the Buddha represented as turning the Wheel of Dhamma and a stone pillar erected by King Asoka. One can still see a remnant of this pillar. The capital is kept in the museum of Sarnath. In the modern temple built by the Mah-Bodhi society, relics of the Buddha are kept which are shown only once a year. ******** Nina. #125744 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 1, 2012 6:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 2007 audio - 20. Seclusion now! sarahprocter... Dear Rob E part 2 of #125082 >________________________________ > From: Robert E >It may be that for those who have the accumulations for concentration, going into physical seclusion is supportive. Wouldn't the rupas of the forest and the quiet also be a reflection of vipaka? So perhaps the going into concentration and the going into the forest is part of that person's natural development and the vipaka rupas that are experienced reflect that at that point...? ... S: "A reflection of vipaka" or more attachment. We all have accumulations for concentration, mostly all akusala concentration. If we go into the forest to concentrate and reflect more, likely to be more akusala concentration and reflection. There are vipaka cittas experiencing rupas whether in the city or in the forest. There can be understanding now of seeing, of visible object, of attachment. If we wait for the quiet forest, bound to be attachment. .... > >> KS: Shall we postpone the development of panna from now on? >> >> S: Well, of course it's not what I'm advocating, but a lot of people today talk about developing jhana and they don't see it as.... > >> KS: ...Excuse me, if there is no panna right now to understand this moment - whether it is calm or not, can anyone reach jhana, that stage of calmness? So it has start or begin from this moment. >...If there is no panna at this moment, how can it grow? >> >> S: No matter what the place ....."seclusion" has to be now. >> ***** >> >> *Vism: VIII,153. "Gone to the forest ...or to an empty place: this signifies that he has found an abode favourable to the development of concentration through mindfulness of breathing." >> >> **"For this bhikkhu's mind has long been dissipated among visible data, etc., as its object, and it does not want to mount the object of concentration-through-mindfulness-of-breathing; it runs off the track like a chariot harnessed to a wild ox." > >The implication here seems to be that the mind will want to run off to sense objects, so concentration is not natural at that point; and that physical seclusion is being suggested to train the mind. ... S: I think the implication is that wherever one is is a favorable place if there are the accumulations and understanding. If there is understanding now of what appears, if there is calmness now of whatever object, then it is "an abode favorable" and at such moments the concentration is already kusala. This is quite different to going to a special place, focussing on a special object and trying to concentrate. .... > >Still, K. Sujin's point that if one goes to the forest with akusala or without understanding, really adds to the understanding of conditions for development in any case. With understanding, and with kusala, could the physical conditions of quiet, etc. help to train the mind, or is this never the case? ... S: The only "quiet" that counts is the quiet and calm of a moment of kusala. When the citta is kusala, even amongst the crowd, it is quiet and calm already. As Alberto and I recently quoted from MN 4, here Thanissaro's transl: Just quoting from TB's translation: " "But, Master Gotama, it's not easy to endure isolated forest or wilderness dwellings. It's not easy to maintain seclusion, not easy to enjoy being alone. The forests, as it were, plunder the mind of a monk who has not attained concentration." "Yes, brahman, so it is. It's not easy to endure isolated forest or wilderness dwellings. It's not easy to maintain seclusion, not easy to enjoy being alone. The forests, as it were, plunder the mind of a monk who has not attained concentration. Before my Awakening, when I was still an unawakened Bodhisatta, the thought occurred to me as well: 'It's not easy to maintain seclusion, not easy to enjoy being alone. The forests, as it were, plunder the mind of a monk who has not attained concentration.' " Metta Sarah ===== #125745 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Aug 1, 2012 10:44 pm Subject: NEP factors as mental factors accompanying path moment jonoabb Hi Rob E (125720) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > RE: I think there's a question as to whether "path" only refers to understanding, and everything else is just sila. The "path" includes right action, right livelihood, right speech, etc. It is very difficult to imagine that "right speech" is not referring to speech itself but only a mental factor that for some reason is merely *called* speech, and that something as worldly as "right livelihood" is really just a mental factor but has nothing to do with what you do for a living. > =============== J: There are 2 important issues to be considered here: (1) Whether the factors of the NEP are, in the ultimate sense, the mental factors that co-arise at a moment of path consciousness, (2) Whether the path factors of right speech, right action and right livelihood in particular are the (momentary) restraint from wrong speech/action/livelihood or are a course of positive good conduct to be undertaken. 1. NEP factors as component factors of path moment (insight) First, from the suttas. In SN 55 (Sotapatti-samyutta, `Connected Discourses on Stream Entry'), sutta #5 is a dialogue between the Buddha and Sariputta. In essence, the sutta says the following: << << << << "What is a factor for stream-entry? "Association with superior persons is a factor for stream-entry. Hearing the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. Careful attention is a factor for stream-entry. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. "What is the stream? "This Noble Eightfold Path is the stream; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, fright mindfulness, right concentration. "What is a stream-enterer? "One who possesses this Noble Eightfold Path is a stream-enterer: this venerable one of such a name and clan." >> >> >> >> Note that, according to the sutta, the NEP *is* the stream. This accords with the idea of the NEP factors as being the mental factors that co-arise at path moments. And the idea of the NEP *being* the stream does not seem to leave room for the idea of the NEP factors as 'descriptions of actions to be undertaken' (separately and individually). Furthermore, the stream-enterer is said to *possess* the NEP. Again, this seems to accord with the idea of the NEP factors as co-arising mental factors. Secondly, from the Vibhanga, the second book of the Abhidhamma, in the section dealing with the 4 Noble Truths (of which the NEP is the fourth - the Truth of the Path leading to Nibbana). (Ch 4 Analysis Of Truth, Summary from par. 206) << << << << Right view is wisdom, understanding right thought is mentation, thinking right speech, action and livelihood are avoiding etc the 4 verbal wrong actions, 3 wrong bodily actions and wrong livelihood respectively right effort is the arousing of mental energy right mindfulness is mindfulness right concentration is stability of consciousness, steadfastness >> >> >> >> (Summary from par. 217-218) << << << << The truth of the path-- - has immeasurable object - has path as its cause - has external object - is mental concomitants - accompanies consciousness - tends to release >> >> >> >> Note particularly that "The truth of the path is mental concomitants". Thirdly, from the Visuddhimagga, in the section dealing with the 4 Noble Truths (XVI, 75 - 83, 'The Truth Of The Way') << << << << "75. In the description of the way leading to the cessation of suffering eight things are given. Though they have, of course, already been explained as to meaning in the Description of the Aggregates, still we shall deal with them here in order to remain aware of the difference between them when they occur in a single moment on the occasion of the path. "76. Briefly, when a meditator is progressing towards the penetration of the four truths, his eye of understanding with nibbana as its object eliminates the inherent tendency to ignorance, and that is right view. It has right seeing as its characteristic. Its function is to reveal elements. It is manifested as the abolition of the darkness of ignorance." [and so on through the other 7 factors of the Eightfold Path] >> >> >> >> Note particularly the reference to the factors of the NEP occurring "in a single moment on the occasion of the path". Finally, in the CMA (the Bhikkhu Bodhi translation of the later Abhidhamma sub-commentary the Abhidhammatta Sangaha), from chapter VII. First, in the section dealing with the right and wrong paths << << << << "#17 Path Factors "Twelve path factors: (1) right view, (2) right intention, (3) right speech, (4) right action, (5) right livelihood, (6) right effort, (7) right mindfulness, (8) right concentration, (9) wrong view, (10) wrong intention, (11) wrong effort, (12) wrong concentration. "Guide to #17 "Here the word 'path' is used in the sense of that which leads to a particular destination, that is, towards the blissful states of existence, the woeful states, and Nibbaana. Of the twelve factors, the first eight lead to the blissful states and Nibbaana, the last four lead to the woeful states. "These twelve path factors can be reduced to nine cetasikas. Right view is the cetasika of wisdom. Right intention, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration are, respectively, the cetasikas of initial application, energy, mindfulness, and one-pointedness found in the wholesome and indeterminate cittas with roots. Right speech, right action, and right livelihood are the three abstinences (virati) found collectively in the supramundane cittas and separately on particular occasions in mundane wholesome cittas. "Of the four wrong path factors, wrong view is the cetasika of views ..." >> >> >> >> Note particularly, "These twelve path factors can be reduced to nine cetasikas". Secondly, in the section dealing with the 4 Noble Truths, in relation to the 4th Truth (i.e., the NEP) (VII, Guide to #38 [The Four Noble Truths]) << << << << "The noble truth of the way to the cessation of suffering is the Noble Eightfold Path. "In the teaching of the four truths, this is the collection of eight cetasikas corresponding to the eight path factors arisen in the cittas of the four supramundane paths." >> >> >> >> Note particularly that the NEP is "the collection of eight cetasikas corresponding to the eight path factors arisen in the cittas of the four supramundane paths". Jon PS Will deal with the factors of right speech/action/livelihood in a separate post. #125746 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Aug 1, 2012 10:50 pm Subject: Right speech, action & livelihood as restraint jonoabb Hi Rob E (125720) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > RE: I think there's a question as to whether "path" only refers to understanding, and everything else is just sila. The "path" includes right action, right livelihood, right speech, etc. It is very difficult to imagine that "right speech" is not referring to speech itself but only a mental factor that for some reason is merely *called* speech, and that something as worldly as "right livelihood" is really just a mental factor but has nothing to do with what you do for a living. > =============== J: There are 2 important issues to be considered here: (1) Whether the factors of the NEP are, in the ultimate sense, the mental factors that co-arise at a moment of path consciousness, (2) Whether the path factors of right speech, right action and right livelihood in particular are the (momentary) restraint from wrong speech/action/livelihood or are a course of positive good conduct to be undertaken. 2. Right speech, right action and right livelihood as restraint from wrong speech/action/livelihood First, from the suttas. In SN 45 (Maggasamyutta, `Connected Discourses on the Path'), sutta #8 gives what the translator Bhikkhu Bodhi describes as `stock definitions found elsewhere in the Pali Canon' of the eight path factors. << << << << And what, bhikkhus, is right speech? Abstinence from false speech, abstinence from divisive speech, abstinence from harsh speech, abstinence from idle speech: this is called right speech. And what, bhikkhus, is right action? Abstinence from the destruction of life, abstinence from taking what is not given, abstinence from sexual misconduct: this is called right action. And what, bhikkhus, is right livelihood? Here a noble disciple, having abandoned a wrong mode of livelihood, earns his living by a right livelihood: this is called right livelihood. >> >> >> >> Secondly, from the Vibhanga, the second book of the Abhidhamma, in the section dealing with the 4 Noble Truths (of which the NEP is the fourth - the Truth of the Path leading to Nibbana). (Ch 4 Analysis Of Truth, Summary from par. 206) << << << << Right view is wisdom, understanding right thought is mentation, thinking right speech, action and livelihood are avoiding etc the 4 verbal wrong actions, 3 wrong bodily actions and wrong livelihood respectively right effort is the arousing of mental energy right mindfulness is mindfulness right concentration is stability of consciousness, steadfastness >> >> >> >> Note particularly, "right speech, action and livelihood are avoiding etc the 4 verbal wrong actions, 3 wrong bodily actions and wrong livelihood respectively". Thirdly, from the Visuddhimagga, in the section dealing with the 4 Noble Truths (XVI, 75 - 83, 'The Truth Of The Way') << << << << "75. In the description of the way leading to the cessation of suffering eight things are given. Though they have, of course, already been explained as to meaning in the Description of the Aggregates, still we shall deal with them here in order to remain aware of the difference between them when they occur in a single moment on the occasion of the path. "76. Briefly, when a meditator is progressing towards the penetration of the four truths, his eye of understanding with nibbana as its object eliminates the inherent tendency to ignorance, and that is right view. It has right seeing as its characteristic. Its function is to reveal elements. It is manifested as the abolition of the darkness of ignorance. 77. [Description of right thinking]. 78. And when he sees and thinks thus, his abstinence from wrong speech, which abstinence is associated with that [right view], abolishes bad verbal conduct, and that is called *right speech*. It has the characteristic of embracing. Its function is to abstain. It is manifested as the abandoning of wrong speech. 79. When he abstains thus, his abstinence from killing living things, which abstinence is associated with that [right view], cuts off wrong action, and that is called *right action*. It has the characteristic of originating.20 Its function is to abstain. It is manifested as the abandoning of wrong action. 80. When his right speech and right action are purified, his abstinence from wrong livelihood, which abstinence is associated with that, [right view] cuts off scheming, etc., and that is called *right livelihood*. It has the characteristic of cleansing. Its function is to bring about the occurrence of a proper livelihood. It is manifested as the abandoning of wrong livelihood. >> >> >> >> Note the reference to abstinence in the descriptions of these 3 factors (paras 78, 79 & 80). Finally, in the CMA (the Bhikkhu Bodhi translation of the later Abhidhamma sub-commentary the Abhidhammatta Sangaha), from chapter VII, in the section dealing with the right and wrong paths << << << << #17 Path Factors "Twelve path factors: (1) right view, (2) right intention, (3) right speech, (4) right action, (5) right livelihood, (6) right effort, (7) right mindfulness, (8) right concentration, (9) wrong view, (10) wrong intention, (11) wrong effort, (12) wrong concentration. "Guide to #17 "Here the word 'path' is used in the sense of that which leads to a particular destination, that is, towards the blissful states of existence, the woeful states, and Nibbaana. Of the twelve factors, the first eight lead to the blissful states and Nibbaana, the last four lead to the woeful states. "These twelve path factors can be reduced to nine cetasikas. Right view is the cetasika of wisdom. Right intention, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration are, respectively, the cetasikas of initial application, energy, mindfulness, and one-pointedness found in the wholesome and indeterminate cittas with roots. Right speech, right action, and right livelihood are the three abstinences (virati) found collectively in the supramundane cittas and separately on particular occasions in mundane wholesome cittas." >> >> >> >> Note particularly, "Right speech, right action, and right livelihood are the three abstinences (virati)". Jon #125747 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Aug 2, 2012 2:39 am Subject: Self-Correction Re: [dsg] Khandhas - audio extract KK 2011 truth_aerator Dear Sarah, I believe that rupa is included in rupakhandha but is not exactly the same thing. Khandha is a category that includes different types of rupa (past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near). > > S: Yes, "meanings of a Pali word, not an English one" > > Let's look at SN 48 (Bodhi transl): > > "At Saavatthii. 'Bhikkhus, I will teach you the five aggregates and the five aggregates subject to clinging. Listen to that........ > > 'And what, bhikkhus, are the five aggregates? Whatever kind of form there is, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near: this is called the form aggregate.'" > > [S: in other words, any past rupa is rupa khandha, any future rupa is rupa khandha, any rupa arising now is rupa khandha and so on. Each rupa shares the characteristics of being rupa with each other rupa, therefore each one is rupa khandha.] > With best wishes, Alex #125748 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 2, 2012 4:18 pm Subject: Re: Self-Correction Re: [dsg] Khandhas - audio extract KK 2011 nilovg Dear Alex, Op 1-aug-2012, om 18:39 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > I believe that rupa is included in rupakhandha but is not exactly > the same thing. > > Khandha is a category that includes different types of rupa (past, > future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior > or superior, far or near). ------- N: Yes. But each one of these is past, future, etc. We always have to consider ruupa now, appearing at this moment, be it hardness, sound, etc. It arises and falls away, it is present now, and after it has fallen away it is past. When it has not arisen yet and there are conditions, it will arise, it is future. It is internal or external. We do not think of abstractions but always of what appears now, in daily life. One ruupa at a time, and it is khandha. If we do not see khandhas has an abstract classification I think that there need not be any problem. What do you think? ------ Nina. #125749 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 2, 2012 4:22 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 6, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 6. Patience in the Development of Understanding. In the third watch of the night when the Buddha attained enlightenment, he realized a Dhamma deep in meaning and, for those who are enslaved to sense pleasures, difficult to grasp. Therefore, he was for a moment inclined not to teach Dhamma. We read in the Vinaya( Mahvagga I, 5) that the Buddha spent the eighth week after his enlightenment at the foot of the Goarherds Banyan. It was there that he was inclined not to teach Dhamma: This that through many toils Ive won-- Enough! Why should I make it known? By folk with lust and hate consumed This dhamma is not understood. Leading on against the stream, Subtle, deep, difficult to see, delicate, Unseen twill be by passions slaves Cloaked in the murk of ignorance. In such wise, as the Lord pondered, his mind inclined to little effort and not to teaching dhamma.... We then read that the Brahm Sahampati vanished from the Brahma-world and appeared before the Buddha, entreating him to teach Dhamma: Lord, let the Lord teach dhamma, let the Well-farer teach dhamma; there are beings with little dust in their eyes who, not hearing dhamma, are decaying, (but if) they are learners of dhamma they will grow. We read that he spoke in verse: There has appeared in Magadha before thee An unclean dhamma by impure minds devised. Open this door of deathlessness, let them hear Dhamma awakened to by the stainless one. As on a crag on crest of mountain standing A man might watch the people far below, Even so do thou, O Wisdom fair, ascending, O Seer of all, the terraced heights of truth, Look down, from grief released, upon the peoples Sunken in grief, oppressed with birth and age. Arise, thou hero! Conquerer in the battle! Thou freed from debt! Man of the caravan! Walk the world over, let the Blessed One Teach dhamma. They who learn will grow. We read that the Brahm Sahampati entreated the Buddha three times to teach Dhamma. Then the Buddha, out of compassion, surveyed the world with the eye of an Awakened One and saw beings with little dust in their eyes and beings with much dust in their eyes, of good dispositions and of bad dispositions. He saw beings who would be able to understand Dhamma and beings who would not be able to understand Dhamma. -------- Nina. #125750 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 2, 2012 6:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in speculative philosophy sarahprocter... Dear Alex, >________________________________ > From: truth_aerator >My belief that all things are impermanent. .... S: What are "all things"? ... > >>S:When the Buddha talked about "sabbe dhamma anicca", was he >talking about fridges? What is directly visible now? >>================================================ > >Visible too is impermanent. .... S: Yes, but what is visible now? Are fridges and people seen or just visible object? .... > >>S: Did the Buddha say it was the elements, the dhammas that were >anicca or the "somethings...made of parts"? >>============================ > >Precisely because a "whole" is made of many smaller "parts" it makes that "whole" inconstant, and anatta. .... S: Is this 'whole' directly experienced through the sense doors or just imagined through the mind door? Would a purple elephant also be inconstant and anatta or just imagined that way? .... > >If something was totally, totally independant - that would be Atta. > >>S: So there are people existing without inner cores? >>Is this through sight, through hearing or just by thinking? Did the >Buddha ever say the path was knowing the "all" abut people existing >without inner cores? >>============================== > >All phenomena depend on various other factors which is what makes them anicca, anatta and dukkha. .... S: So you're saying that a person exists without an inner core dependent on various other factors and this is what makes it anicca, anatta and dukkha? You think that these 'wholes' without inner cores are conditioned and included in the 'all' as described by the Buddha? Can these people or cordless wholes ever be directly experienced and known? Is this the Path? In the Sabba Sutta, which part of the "all" to be known are they included in? Which ayatana includes wholes and people that are conditioned? ... >>S:Dhammas exist no matter any of the activities you refer to. >Understanding dhammas doesn't mean not opening the fridge! It means >that there is no illusion that in an ultimate sense there is a >fridge. "Fridge" is not the object of satipatthana. >>========================================== > >I believe that avijja means being deluded about 4NT which has nothing to do with metaphysical speculations about what really, really exists in "ultimate" sense. .... S: The 1st NT summarizes what "really, really exists in 'ultimate sense' and is to be directly realized: in brief, the 5 khandhas of grasping. What is the way that these "really, really" existing khandhas are to be directly realized - the noble eightfold path, beginning with right understanding. No fridges there.... ... > >>S:The Buddha slep in his cave or kuti, he address people by name, >he travelled to different places - all without any illusion >whatsoever that there was anything at all arising and falling away >but namas and rupas. When there is understanding of seeing, visible >object and other realities, there is nothing problematic or >confusing at all. >>======================================================== > >I believe that the delusion which Buddha didn't have was delusion about 4NT. ... S: Right - whilst sleeping in his cave and addressing people by name, there was no delusion that anything existed other than dhammas, khandhas clung to by the unwise. Metta Sarah ====== #125751 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 2, 2012 7:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Wasteland sarahprocter... Dear Rob E & Lukas, >________________________________ > From: Robert E >>L In few days I am going to my friend Luraya, and we going with her mom to Alps together. And I am tottaly scared how it will be. So scared to meet her. How to do to be accepted to make good impresion on her family, so scared. I am always not good in this socializing things. But I am so worried and affraid, like what Luraya will think of me, how I behave in different situations. If I really have a strenght to be a nice guy etc. How will I feel far from home, without my own money, depending on others. If I get enought food? etc. All so much self involved. And this is all dukkha, but i know it only intelectual understanding. In such moments I feel like having more support from my Dhamma friends here. > >R:I have those same feelings many times. Being a Dhamma student is unfortunately no protection against anxiety and insecurity, but it is possible to experience those feelings and realize - intellectually at least as you say - that they are just experiences that are coming and going, and don't really tell you the truth about reality. Sometimes it is interesting to watch a feeling like that to the end and see that at some point it fades away. It may come up again, but it is not as continuous as it seems. ... S: I think you make good points, Rob. We all have fears and worries, all except the anagami have attachment to sense objects and aversions of one kind or another (or all kinds!) as a result. As you say "Being a Dhamma student is unfortunately no protection against anxiety and insecurity". What is a real protection is the development of right understanding of such dhammas and any other conditioned dhammas arising as anatta and as anicca as you suggest. Even when really anxious or scared, there can be understanding of dhammas at such a time. They are all so very fleeting and fall away immediately. It's only the story about them that makes it seem that they last. The dramas in life will continue, the various vipakas, the thinking about worldly conditions will continue, but the understanding of realities can develop even now as we write. Metta Sarah ===== #125752 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 2, 2012 6:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: packing lists. sarahprocter... Dear Alex, >________________________________ > From: truth_aerator >>S:Yes, we behave "as if external conceptual objects are really >there", most of the time in ignorance. >>=================================================== > >A: As I understand the suttas, ignorance is mostly defined as ignoring 4NT. .... S: So starting with ignorance of the 1st NT - what is this? Each reality, each khandha is dukkha because it arises and falls away and in ignorance there is clinging to these impermanent realities. Because there is no understanding of the presently arising and falling away realities now, there is the illusion that "conceptual objects are really there". There are stories all the time about what is seen, heard, smelt, tasted and touched without any awareness or understanding of the reality that appears now. ... > >==================================================== >>S:For the sotapanna, the outer behaviour will seem just the same - >whether driving a car, swimming with a whale or doing the dishes. >For those without understanding of dhammas, they can never >understand the sotapanna's wisdom - the wisdom that directly >understands realities as anatta whatever the behaviour seems to be >conventionally. >>==================================================== > >A:How does sotapanna differ from ordinary good person? You say the understanding of "anatta", but how does this understanding reflects on sotapanna's behaviour? .... S: From the Mulapariyaya Sutta and commentaries (B.Bodhi transl): " ' He [S: the noble learner] directly knows earth as earth' (pa.thavi.m pa.thavito abhijaanaati) Cy. He directly knows earth in its nature as earth (pa.thavii-bhaavena), unlike the worldling who perceives it with a completely perverted perception. further, he knows it with distinguished knowledge (abhivisi.t.thena ~naa.nena). What is meant is that, resolving upon the earth in accordance with its real nature as earth, he knows it as impermanent, suffering, and non-self. Sub. Cy. 'With distinguished knowledge'; without falling short of the true nature of dhammas and without overshooting the mark, as confused comprehension and wrong understanding do, he knows it with distinguished knowledge which directly confronts the true nature of dhammas without falling away from it. The meaning is: with the full understanding through scrutinization based on the full understanding of the known, and with one section (ekadesa) of the full understanding of abandoning." [S: this is referring to the 3 pari~n~nas - stages of insight]." ... S: In other words, the way that the sotapanna differs from the "ordinary good person" is primarily described in terms of his right view. There is no more doubt, no more wrong view about realities ever again. Whilst driving a car, swimming in the ocean or washing dishes, there is no more illusion that anything exists other than the various conditioned dhammas, the khandhas of grasping. The aim of the Teachings is not to change one's personality, but to eradicate defilements beginning with wrong view through the development of understanding of realities. Metta Sarah ====== #125753 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Thu Aug 2, 2012 10:55 pm Subject: BEAUTIFUL ASALHA PUJA DAY...Today ! yawares1 Dear Members, Today is Asalha Puja Day , at 5AM I saw the most magical full moon shining so brightly while I was walking meditation with Tep on the street in front of our house...I felt so peaceful and happy with Buddhas in my heart. ASALHA PUJA DAY Asalaha Puja, also referred to as "Dhamma Day", falls in the eighth month of the lunar calendar. The Buddha attained enlightenment at Bodhgaya India on the full moon of Visakha, which is the sixth lunar month. Two months later, on the full moon of Asalha, he delivered the first discourse to the five ascetics of his former association; Kondanna, Vappa, Bhaddiya, Mahanama, and Assaji, who later became his first disciples, at the Deer Park near Benares (Varanasi). This epoch making incident marks the establishment of the Buddhist religion. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVGt1vw5 ... re=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yllxkK6B ... egcF0cIPLA At the end of the sermon, Kondanna attained awakening and asked for ordination, thus becoming the first Buddhist monk in history. The Order of the Sangha (community of Buddhist monks) was initiated and the Triple Gem; The Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha was complete. Lord Buddha's First Sermon is The Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta ~ “The Discourse on Turning the Wheel of Truth” The main theme of this first discourse is The Four Noble Truths, namely Suffering, the Cause of Suffering, the End of Suffering, and The Way to the End of Suffering. The Way to the End of Suffering is expanded in The Noble Eightfold Path (The Middle Way) which is: Right View, Right resolve, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, and Right Concentration. These Four Noble Truths and the way to liberation found in the Noble Eightfold Path are the essence of Lord Buddha's teaching which makes the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta considered to be "Buddhism in a nutshell". ************ Love Buddha's dhamma, yawares/sirikanya #125754 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 2, 2012 10:58 pm Subject: Synecdoche upasaka_howard Hi, all - The referring to specific namas and rupas as khandhas is an instance of the linguistic phenomenon called "synecdoche". The definition of that is given in the Wikipedia aricle _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synecdoche_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synecdoche) , as follows: Synecdoche ( _/_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English) _s_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English#Key) _ɪ_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English#Key) _ˈ_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English#Key) _n_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English#Key) _ɛ_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English#Key) _k_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English#Key) _d_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English#Key) _ə _ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English#Key) _k_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English#Key) _iː_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English#Key) _/_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English) , _si-NEK-də-kee_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Pronunciation_respelling_key) ; from _Greek_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek) synekdoche (συνεκδοχή), meaning "simultaneous understanding", is a _figure of speech_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_of_speech) _[1]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synecdoche#cite_note-m-w-0) in which a term is used in one of the following ways: * Part of something is used to refer to the whole thing (_pars pro toto_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pars_pro_toto) ), or * A thing (a "whole") is used to refer to part of it (_totum pro parte_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totum_pro_parte) ), or * A specific class of thing is used to refer to a larger, more general class, or * A general class of thing is used to refer to a smaller, more specific class, or * A material is used to refer to an object composed of that material, or * A container is used to refer to its contents. It is the 2nd item in this list that is the case in point. Another example of this whole-for-part usage mentioned in the article is the following: "He's good people." [Here, the word "people" is used to denote a specific instance of people, i.e., a person. So the sentence would be interpreted as "He's a good person."] Some additional examples from another site are the following: At the Olympics, you will hear that the United States won a gold medal in an event. That actually means a team from the United States, not the country as a whole. If “the world” is not treating you well, that would not be the entire world but just a part of it that you've encountered. The word "society" is often used to refer to high society or the social elite. The word "police" can be used to represent only one or a few police officers. [On yet another site is given the example "The police knocked down my door " whole (the police) for part (some police officers)] The "pentagon" can refer to a few decision-making generals. "Capitol Hill" refers to both the U.S. Senate and the House of Representatives. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #125755 From: Alex Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 2:38 am Subject: Re: Self-Correction Re: [dsg] Khandhas - audio extract KK 2011 truth_aerator Dear Nina, Sarah, all, I believe that one has to clarify the necessity of phenomena having to be anicca,dukkha, anatta. These can never be learned through quantitative observation. Only as structural principle in a sense of "all triangles have three sides". One doesn't have to observe all infinity of triangles in order to realize that what makes triangle is the fact that it has to have three sides. >Nina: "We always have to consider ruupa now, appearing at this moment, be it hardness, >sound, etc. " >================== Sure, as a practice of some sort. Rather than to react in a lobha/dosa/moha, why not respond in good, kusala way. With best wishes, Alex #125757 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 2:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Synecdoche moellerdieter Hi Howard , all, thanks for the food for thought , Howard. first thoughts: Howard concludes 'The referring to specific namas and rupas as khandhas is an instance of the linguistic phenomenon called "synecdoche". Question 1 : is it so? Question 2: if yes, what does it say in respect to Ven . Nyanatiloka's definition of the khandhas, in particular: "these 5 groups, correctly speaking, merely form an abstract classification by the Buddha" . H: 1. synekdoche (συνεκδοχή), meaning "simultaneous understanding", is a _figure of speech_in which a term is used in one of the following ways: snip .. It is the 2nd item in this list that is the case in point :* A thing (a "whole") is used to refer to part of it (_totum pro parte example of this whole-for-part usage mentioned in the article is the following: "He's good people.. At the Olympics, you will hear that the United States won a gold medal in an event. D:Refering to khandha , example : vinnana khandha = eye - , ear-, tongue- ,nose- , bodily- and mind-consciousness (, involved are the rupa dhammas of sight, sound , scent,taste,tangible and nama dhamma thought.. it is all what the living being can be conscious about , i.e. consciousness their common. What is constantly arising and ceasing are the phenomena among the 6senses media , sound may cease, scent arise etc. , but - strictly speaking the consciousness khandha is not (coma,death exluded) . Similar to speak of the U.S. winning a gold medal ( I wonder whether one would speak of US losing a gold medal in case of doping e.g. ) is a matter of -strictly speaking - incorrect use of the language 2. Ven. Nyanatiloka: "The fact ought to be emphasized here that these 5 groups, correctly speaking, merely form an abstract classification by the Buddha, but that they as such, i.e. as just these 5 complete groups, have no real existence, since only single representatives of these groups, mostly variable, can arise with any state of consciousness. For example, with one and the same unit of consciousness only one single kind of feeling, say joy or sorrow, can be associated and never more than one. Similarly, two different perceptions cannot arise at the same moment. Also, of the various kinds of sense-cognition or consciousness, only one can be present at a time, for example, seeing, hearing or inner consciousness, etc. Of the 50 mental formations, however, a smaller or larger number are always associated with every state of consciousness, as we shall see later on. Some writers on Buddhism who have not understood that the five khandha are just classificatory groupings, have conceived them as compact entities ('heaps', 'bundles'), while actually, as stated above, the groups never exist as such, i.e. they never occur in a simultaneous totality of all their constituents. Also those single constituents of a group which are present in any given body- and -mind process, are of an evanescent nature, and so also their varying combinations. Feeling, perception and mental formations are only different aspects and functions of a single unit of consciousness. They are to consciousness what redness, softness, sweetness, etc. are to an apple and have as little separate existence as those qualities." My conclusion , the Venerable is right. Acc. to the sutta sources the Buddha spoke of rising and ceasing khandhas, but I think he would not have used it when it comes to Abhidhammic precession , where concept and reality are distingushed . It was not necessary , because he did not made such distinction and therefore it was understood as a figure of speech , likewise when we read that the US won a medal. With Metta Dieter #125758 From: Alex Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 3:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in speculative philosophy truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, >S:What are "all things"? All phenomena that we can experience, including concepts. >S:Yes, but what is visible now? Are fridges and people seen or just >visible object? >=================== Of course people and fridges are visible. That is why we don't mistake one for the other. If we want food we open the fridge, not the person, and if we need to ask something, we ask a person, not a fridge. >S:Is this 'whole' directly experienced through the sense doors or >just imagined through the mind door? >================================= It is mental abstraction of experience called whole/parts, or conventional/ultimate. >S:Would a purple elephant also be inconstant and anatta or just >imagined that way? >================================ Purple Elephant *as imagination* is impermanent because imagination (nama) is impermanent. >S...Can these people or cordless wholes ever be directly experienced >and known? >========================================= What we abstractly call "Ultimate/Conventional, part/whole" is a mental process that itself is anicca... etc. Obviously we distinguish between a door and a wall. If these are not distinguished, then how come we always in right state of mind go through the door and don't attempt to walk through the wall?! It is things like that which bother me about certain kinds of ontology. With best wishes, Alex qtl { position: absolute; border: 1px solid #cccccc; -moz-border-radius: 5px; opacity: 0.2; line-height: 100%; z-index: 999; direction: ltr; } qtl:hover,qtl.open { opacity: 1; } qtl,qtlbar { height: 22px; } qtlbar { display: block; width: 100%; background-color: #cccccc; cursor: move; } qtlbar img { border: 0; padding: 3px; height: 16px; width: 16px; cursor: pointer; } qtlbar img:hover { background-color: #aaaaff; } qtl>iframe { border: 0; height: 0; width: 0; } qtl.open { height: auto; } qtl.open>iframe { height: 200px; width: 300px; } #125759 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 2:46 am Subject: Re: Synecdoche moellerdieter test #125760 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 7:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Synecdoche upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter - In a message dated 8/2/2012 2:29:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Acc. to the sutta sources the Buddha spoke of rising and ceasing khandhas, but I think he would not have used it when it comes to Abhidhammic precession , where concept and reality are distingushed . It was not necessary , because he did not made such distinction ------------------------------------------------------- HCW: You have made me smile, Dieter! ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------- and therefore it was understood as a figure of speech , likewise when we read that the US won a medal. ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #125761 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 7:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Synecdoche upasaka_howard Passed! With metta, Howard In a message dated 8/2/2012 2:33:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, moellerdieter@... writes: test #125762 From: "Christine" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 8:46 am Subject: First-Ever White House Conference of Dharmic Faiths christine_fo... Hello all, An interesting article on Bhikkhu Bodhi's Blog - First-Ever White House Conference of Dharmic Faiths Until recently conferences on interfaith cooperation in the U.S. have almost always centered on the Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Yet over the past forty years America has become a much more diversified and pluralistic society. The relaxing of restrictions on immigration, followed by the post-war upheavals in Southeast Asia in the 1970s, has dramatically transformed our population. Large numbers of Americans now have religious roots that go back, not to the deserts of Judea and Arabia, but to the plains, mountains, and villages of ancient India. For convenience, these are grouped together under the designation "the Dharmic faiths." They include Buddhists, Hindus, Jains, and Sikhs, and their national origins range from Pakistan to Japan, from Burma to Vietnam, and from Mongolia to Sri Lanka. Not all are immigrants. At least one whole generation of people of Asian descent has been born and raised in America, and think of themselves principally as Americans following a Dharmic religion. [.] http://buddhistglobalrelief.wordpress.com/2012/04/26/first-ever-white-house-conf\ erence-of-dharmic-faiths-2/ with metta Chris #125763 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 12:45 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 jonoabb Hi Rob E (125714) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > RE: I do think that we should try to reduce "akusala behavior" and that the Buddha would not have promoted good behavior if it was *only awareness* that was being promoted, and not behavior as well. Buddha did not ever say "Go kill as many chickens as you like - when awareness arises naturally you will gain insight anyway." The suggestion is in the opposite direction. I think most people try to do this anyway. I don't think anyone in the group runs around trying to trip people so they can enjoy watching them fall down, or makes a regular habit of stealing. Probably the akusala we engage in is more subtle and on the mental level, or at least concerned with private activities, or sort of the normal things like drinking a little wine [a semi-medical activity of mine since the red wine reports...]. But I do think we should be moving in the right direction, however gradually. I also think we can have such an intention without an idea of control, but just of gradually moving in the right direction. After you've tried to control the current habits for a few decades I think you realize that it's not in your hands. > =============== J: You talk about `moving in the right direction'. Yes, but it's a matter of what that involves, in the context of the path leading to escape from samsara. Does it involve reducing akusala behaviour, or does it involve a better understanding of dhammas? We keep coming back to this point, don't we :-)) I quote again the passage from the Visuddhimagga (Ch XXIII) that explains that the first among the `benefits in developing understanding' is the removal of various defilements: "2. Herein, it should be understood that one of the benefits of the mundane development of understanding is the removal of the various defilements beginning with [mistaken] view of individuality. This starts with the delimitation of mentality-materiality. ..." Clearly from this, the `right direction' is a better understanding of dhammas ("delimitation of mentality-materiality") leading to a lessening of the idea of self ("[mistaken] view of individuality"). Of course, with the development of a better understanding of dhammas comes the development (and purification) of sila; it's not a case of better sila having to precede the development of the path. The development of sila is always to be encouraged; but on its own it is not a goal to be aspired to. Jon #125764 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 6:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -viriya 1 - welfare for the householders sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, >________________________________ > From: Dieter Moeller >the issue of bojjhanga is quite important , so I will refer only to that , coming back to the other points later. > >you wrote: > >(D: yes, it has to begin with mindfulness , the first of the 7 links to enlightenment.) >... >S: With understanding, mindfulness and the other factors. They develop together. >... > >D: hm.... just to recall the 7 (Buddh.Dict.) > >a.. bojjhanga >'the 7 factors of enlightenment', are: > >a.. mindfulness (sati-sambojjhanga; s. sati), >b.. investigation of the law (dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga), >c.. energy (viriya-sambojjhanga; s. viriya, padhana), >d.. rapture (piti-sambojjhanga, q.v.) >e.. tranquility (passaddhi-sambojjhanga, q.v.), >f.. concentration (samadhi-sambojjhanga, q.v.), >g.. equanimity (upekkha). >"Because they lead to enlightenment, therefore they are called factors of enlightenment" (S. XLVI, 5). > >Though in the 2nd factor, dhamma-vicaya, the word dhamma is taken by most translators to stand for the Buddhist doctrine, it probably refers to the bodily and mental phenomena (nama-rupa-dhamma) as presented to the investigating mind by mindfulness, the 1st factor. With that interpretation, the term may be rendered by 'investigation of phenomena'. > >D: I suppose a thundering Yes ! ... but frankly speaking I miss the substantiation for a different interpretation than ' by most translators'. .... S: Dhamma-vicaya is panna cetasika. In the Abhidhamma it is given as a synonym of panna, sampajanna, vijja and so on. From CMA, Ch 7, after listing the 7 bojjhangas, the guide note says: "Among the seven factors of enlightenment, investigation of states (dhammavicaya) is a designation for wisdom (pa~n~naa), insight into mental and material phenomena as they really are...." .... > >'In A.X.102, the 7 factors are said to be the means of attaining the threefold wisdom (s. tevijja).''In Brahmanism means 'knower of the 3 Vedas' (tri-vidya), in Buddhism means one who has realised 3 kinds of knowledge, to wit: > >a.. remembrance of former rebirths, > >b.. the divine eye, > >c.. extinction of all cankers. ' > >D:The sutta doesn't refer to the three characteristics of life , ti-lakkhana , which could have allowed above interpretation .... S: Without an understanding of the ti-lakkhana of all conditioned dhammas, there can never be an extinction of any cankers. .... > >'They may be attained by means of the 4 foundations of mindfulness (satipatthana), as it is said in S.XLVI.1 and explained in M.118: > >a.. (1) "Whenever, o monks, the monk dwells contemplating the body (kaya), feeling (vedana), mind (citta) and mind-objects (dhamma), strenuous, clearly-conscious, mindful, after subduing worldly greed and grief, at such a time his mindfulness is present and undisturbed; and whenever his mindfulness is present and undisturbed, at such a time he has gained and is developing the factor of enlightenment 'mindfulness' (sati-sambojjhanga), and thus this factor of enlightenment reaches fullest perfection. > >b.. (2) "Whenever, while dwelling with mindfulness, he wisely investigates, examines and thinks over the law ... at such a time he has gained and is developing the factor of enlightenment 'investigation of the law' (dhamma-vicaya) .... > >D:'investigates, examines and thinks over the law vs : the term may be rendered by 'investigation of phenomena'. ... S: Sati sampajanna - sati and panna developed together with the other factors until they become enlightenment factors. ... > >The majority of translators may refute the latter as an unfounded restriction.. > >a.. (3) "Whenever, while wisely investigating his energy is firm and unshaken ... at such a time he has gained and is developing the factor of enlightenment 'energy' (viriya) .... > >b.. (4) "Whenever in him, while firm in energy, arises super sensuous rapture ... at such a time he has gained and is developing the factor of enlightenment 'rapture' (piti) .. > >c.. (5) "Whenever, while enraptured in mind, his body and his mind become composed ... at such a time he has gained and is developing the factor of enlightenment 'tranquillity' (passaddhi). > >d.. (6) "Whenever, while being composed in his body and happy, his mind becomes concentrated ... at such a time he has gained and is developing the factor of enlightenment 'concentration' (samadhi) > >e.. (7) "Whenever he looks with complete indifference on his mind thus concentrated ... at such a time he has gained and is developing the factor of enlightenment 'equanimity' (upekkha). > >D: above states in respect to each of the 7 factors 'whenever.. at such a time ' . >It is not clear to me what you mean by 'With understanding, mindfulness and the other factors. They develop together'. ... S: Without the development of the understanding of names and rupas, these other mental factors can never become bhojjangas. For example, viriya or right effort. There is right effort at all moments of kusala, but what makes it right effort of the path which can eventually become a bhojjanga? Only the right understanding which clearly knows realities as anatta - it has to be the right effort accompanying this understanding. Metta Sarah ===== #125765 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 6:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -viriya 1 - welfare for the householders sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, >________________________________ > From: Dieter Moeller >S: At a moment of seeing, the experiencing of visible object is "All" that exist at that moment. > >D: the 'All' is a constant stream of rising and ceasing (senses) phenomena . ... S: Only one 'world', one reality can be experienced at a time. So at the moment of seeing, there is only the experience of visible object. Nothing else appears at all. Just one citta at a time. Remember the quote from the Vism we like to give: Vism, V111, 39: "As to the shortness of the moment: in the ultimate sense the life moment of living beings is extremely short, being only as much as the occurrence of a single conscious moment. Just as a chariot wheel, when it is rolling, rolls (that is, touches the ground) only on one point of (the circumference of) its tyre, and, when it is at rest, rests only on one point, so too, the life of living beings lasts only for a single conscious moment. When that consciousness has ceased, the being is said to have ceased, according as it is said: 'In a past conscious moment he did live, not he does live, not he will live. In a future conscious moment not he did live, not he does live, he will live. In the present conscious moment not he did live, he does live, not he will live. " 'Life, person, pleasure, pain - just these alone Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive Are all alike, gone never to return. No (world is) born if (consciousness is) not produced; when that is present, then it lives; When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead: The highest sense this concept will allow' " (Nd.1,42) "This is how death should be recollected as to the shortness of the moment." ... D:> Attention towards a visible object , the citta eye-consciousness, does not mean other objects / the other senses media don't exist. ... S: Only one door-way at a time, only one object is experienced at a time. This is the 'all' to be known - just the reality appearing. Other rupas are arising and falling away all the time, but if they are not experienced, they cannot be known, they are not the field of understanding at that moment. ... >The stream is real , but our reality appears to be only that, we our conscious of ( in fact only a very small quantity out of available millions of passing phenomena , which are sub-conscious ). By the unexpected we are reminded on a choice among the many... ... S: No choice.... it is just the reality which is conditioned to be experienced now that can be known. There is no 'stream' now - just one world, one reality that can be understood. ... >S: Satipatthana has to develop now when there has been the clear understanding of present realities. > >D: I would put it like :the understanding of realities is possible with the development of mindfulness . ( second and first link of bojjhanga) ... S: Sati-sampajanna - awareness and right understanding. They arise together and have different functions. ... > >S:To realise the unconditioned dhamma, the only way is the development of satipatthana, this is the Path. > >D: the all of dhammas is conditioned , we may speak of the unconditioned (dhatu) = nibbana ... S: Yes, nibbana is the unconditioned element - also one of the "all of dhammas" to be realized. See the Sabba Sutta. Metta Sarah ===== #125766 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 6:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. sarahprocter... Hi Ken H & Rob E, >________________________________ > From: Ken H >>> KH: Why was that monk not blamed by the Buddha? Was it because he did not intentionally kill anything? I don't think so. >>> > >> S: I do. There are so many similar examples in the Vinaya. >------ > >KH: I'm not sure what either of us is referring to there. Perhaps I was trying to say to Rob E that the Buddha taught satipathana. He didn't teach, for example, the absence of akusala without satipathana. > >So I think I was saying the blind monk's absence of akusala was not a commonplace absence. It was in fact an absence that was due to the Path. I was suggesting that the monk might have been an ariyan, and the non-arising of akusala kamma patha was due to the destruction (complete or partial) of defilements. .... S: Regardless of whether there was any understanding on the part of the monk, regardless of whether he was an ariyan or not, the Buddha stressed that if there were no intention to kill or harm, there is no blame in that regard. When he lay down the Patimokkha rules it was for all the monks regardless of any attainments. I agree with you that all such rules were taught together with satipatthana. I may be missing your point..... ... > >-------------- >>> KH: He intentionally walked even though there was a caterpillar plague and walking would, in his case, inevitably mean killing. So it was the same thing. >>> > >> S: As Rob E mentioned, this would be a Jain approach if one were to avoid >walking because of inevitable deaths of insects or wear a net over one's face. >It's the intention that counts. >--------------- > >KH: As I was saying to Rob, in ultimate reality there was *no akusala kamma patha.* So our conventional stories of what happened should reflect that ultimate reality. It's hard – and I think even the monk's friends found it hard – to think of a story in which someone could walk down a caterpillar infested track without being in some way malicious or irresponsible. .... S: Yes, stories about what states we think should be arising will never help us to understand the reality at this moment. ... > >Can you think of a suitable conventional explanation? I know we all drive our cars, for example, knowing full well that insects are going to be accidentally killed. We take it for granted that there is nothing wrong – no unwholesome intention – involved in doing that, but isn't it just a matter of degree? If people (instead of mere insects) were inevitably going to be accidentally killed every time we drove our cars, would we still be excused for doing so? .... S: Again, that would just be another story for people to argue about rather than an understanding of what appears now. We can't judge from the situation - there are so many cittas arising and falling away all the time. Metta Sarah ====== #125767 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 6:47 pm Subject: Kusala and akusala activities (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Hi Rob E (125677) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > RE: As I have hypothesized before, I don't think that someone who has a preponderance of akusala is going to have much chance of the sustained moments of kusala necessary to awaken to anything. To resolve that question, we would have to discuss accumulations and tendencies, which I'm happy to do if you feel like it. It's not a matter of an individual kusala citta in my view, which if single, will quickly be swallowed up in the waves of akusala. > =============== J: It's not really a matter of hypothesizing, but of studying the Pali Canon (the teachings of the Buddha and the commentaries on those teachings). Nowhere is it said that a certain level of sila is necessary before there can be a beginning to the understanding of dhammas. And once that understanding begins, sila is also developed. Kusala of the level of awareness/insight is stronger than any akusala. > =============== > > J: (Again, this is not to suggest that kusala actions are not important; they are, but kusala sila does not constitute the development of the path.) > > RE: I think without some degree of accumulation of kusala and tendency towards more regular arising of kusala, the path is not going to be seen, let alone developed, so I think sila and whatever other kusala may be cultivated may be more important as a supporting condition for understanding than you may be suggesting here. > =============== J: Regarding "I think without some degree of accumulation of kusala and tendency towards more regular arising of kusala, the path is not going to be seen, let alone developed", this supposition/hypothesizing on your part. Everyone begins from where they are. Good sila or poor sila, the development of the understanding of dhammas can begin, as long as there has been the right exposure to the teachings, and what has been heard is properly understood. Jon #125768 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 9:11 pm Subject: Kusala and akusala activities (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Hi Rob E (125677) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > > > J: Note that the text does not speak of kusala or akusala actions. It talks about acting with kusala/akusala mental states. > > RE: It does not affirm or deny the idea that certain types of actions may be the expression of 'speaking or acting with pure mind.' If one is 'acting with pure mind' that person will not be murdering someone. That would be impossible, would it not? > =============== J: My point was the the idea of `kusala/akusala actions' is actually a matter of kusala/akusala mind states manifesting as acts of speech and body. > =============== > RE: That is confusing to me - please explain how the word "forerunner" refers to a concurrent mental state? In what sense would the word "forerunner" apply to such a situation? "Forerunner" means literally that which comes before and either sets the stage or creates what comes after. Is there a special meaning of "forerunner" that I am missing here? I mean one that makes sense of the meaning of the word. What is the mental state "coming before?" > =============== J: Here is the text again: "Mind is the forerunner of states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked/pure mind, suffering/affection follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox." I think the meaning is that the wicked/pure mind is the forerunner of the suffering/affection that follows. > =============== > > J: As far as the development of the path is concerned, the important thing is that what we take for conventional actions are nothing other than namas and rupas, and it is namas and rupas that are to be known, regardless of the ethical nature of the action currently being performed. > > RE: So are we to know "foolish babble" as namas and rupas? That is fine if so. But that is seeing the real dhammas within the speech act, not denying that speech is taking place, whatever rupas that may involve. > =============== J: Conventionally speaking, there is a speech act taking place; in terms of dhammas, however, there are certain volition moments (and other dhammas) that manifest as a speech act. Jon #125769 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 9:21 pm Subject: Vassa Candle Festival/Parade In Thailand yawares1 HAPPY VASSA DAY to all members! This Vassa Day I would like to show you the beautiful Candle festival/parade in Ubon Ratchathani,Thailand. I had a chance to watch such a wonderful candle parade only once in my life standing in the hot sunlight on the street with my pretty Thai umbrella: http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/i ... chiang+mai http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/i ... C+thailand Thanks to youtube I can watch it again and again in my cool computer room. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rtoLXmrUg4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NwJzU9R ... ure=relmfu Vassa (from Pali - vasso, Burmese - waso, Thai - pansa or phansaa), also called Rains Retreat, is the traditional retreat during the rainy season lasting for three lunar months from July to October. During this time Buddhist monks remain in a single place, generally in their temples. In some monasteries, monks dedicate the vassa to intensive meditation. During vassa, many lay people reinvigorate their spiritual training and adopt more ascetic practices, such as giving up meat, alcohol, or smoking. Vassa is sometimes known as "Buddhist Lent", though at least one prominent Theravada monk has objected to this usage. In countries such as Thailand, the laity will often take monastic vows for period of vassa and return to lay life afterwards. Commonly, the number of years a monk has spent in monastic life is expressed by counting the number of vassas he has observed. The vassa retreat has largely been given up by Mahayana Buddhists, as Mahayana Buddhism has typically flourished in regions without a rainy season. However for Mahayana schools such as Zen and Tibetan Buddhism other forms of retreat are common. The observation of vassa is said to originate with the Buddha himself. Gautama Buddha ordered his disciples to observe a pre-existing practice whereby holy men avoided travel for a three month period during the rainy season, in order to avoid damaging crops. Vassa begins on the first day of the waning moon of the eighth lunar month, the preceding day is Asalha Puja. The focus of celebration by the laity is the first day of vassa during which worshippers donate candles and other necessities to temples, in a ceremony which has reached its most extravagant form in the Ubon Ratchathani Candle Festival. Vassa is followed by two of the major festivals of the year among Theravada Buddhists, Wan Awk Pansa and Kathina. The end of vassa is marked by joyous celebration. The following month, the kathina ceremony is held, during which the laity gathers to make formal offerings of robe cloth and other requisites to the Sangha. ************ Love Buddha's dhamma, yawares/sirikanya #125770 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 9:26 pm Subject: What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Hi Rob E (125661) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: To my understanding, when the texts speak of killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse, etc., they are speaking of the akusala kamma patha of that name and not of conventional actions that may appear to correspond to those akusala kamma patha. > > RE: I can understand how sexual desire or intention could be a mental state, but I do not see how "unlawful sexual intercourse," which is a physical kamma patha, could possibly be reduced to a mental state alone. I understand that you see it that way, but can you explain how "unlawful sexual intercourse" arises as a dhamma rather than as an act between conventional bodies in the world? > =============== J: I have not been saying that akusala kamma patha is simply and purely a mental state. Most akusala kamma patha does manifest as (conventional) action through body or speech. But in terms of the dhammas spoken of by the Buddhda, conventional acts are only namas and rupas, regardless of whether the act is one that forms part of kamma patha or is an act such as brushing one's teeth or reading/writing a message on the list. However, of all the dhammas involved in an act of kamma patha, it is the mental factor of intention that, as kamma condition, conditions the vipaka/result, namely, the future experience of a pleasant or unpleasant object. Only cetana can condition vipaka; rupas cannot. Jon #125771 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 9:37 pm Subject: Pa~n~naa the most precious. nilovg Dear friends, no 20 of the 85 short talks on Dhamma: Pa~n~naa is more precious than gold. Pa~n~naa is more precious than anything else. It is in the citta, it has been accumulated and it does not disappear, even in next lives. The horse Kanthaka of Prince Siddhatta who took him outside the palace, was reborn as a deva. He visited the Buddha and could attain enlightenment to the stage of the sotaapanna. Everybody has accumulated qualities in the citta, and these are naama which cannot be seen. There are accumulations of akusala, kusala, pa~n~naa, saddhaa (confidence in kusala). Actions through body and speech arise according to accumulated conditions. If there were no citta there would not be any actions. Pa~n~naa, right understanding, is most precious and it cannot be stolen by thieves, nor carried off by water. When we part from this world it is not known by anybody where we will be reborn, but what has been accumulated can be a condition at the right time to understand the Dhamma such as in the case of Angulimaala (who killed many people) or the horse Kanthaka. The accumulated right understanding can condition at the right time the elimination of ignorance and clinging. All the time pa~n~naa is accumulated as sa.nkhaarakkhandha (the khandha of mental formations, including all good qualities). No matter in which life one is reborn, what has been accumulated is there. The pa~n~naa of the horse Kanthaka was accumulated in the citta but it had no opportunity to arise during his life as an animal. But when he was reborn as the deva Kanthaka, the pa~n~naa that had been accumulated could, when he listened to the Dhamma, eradicate doubt and ignorance, and he could realize the four noble Truths. Nobody knows during each life about pa~n~naa that has been accumulated in the citta. ******* Nina. #125772 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 9:41 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 6, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, When we were in Sarnath it was full moon, Uposatha day. In the afternoon we were sitting on the grass, not far from the place of the first sermon. We listened to the same words the Buddha once spoke to the five disciples (Vinaya, Mahvagga, I, 6. 19 a.f.): And this, monks, is the ariyan truth of dukkha: birth is dukkha, and old age is dukkha and disease is dukkha and dying is dukkha, association with what is not dear is dukkha, separation from what is dear is dukkha, not getting what one wants is dukkha-- in short the five khandhas of grasping are dukkha..." The Buddha then explained the ariyan truth of the arising of dukkha, the ariyan truth of the ceasing of dukkha and the ariyan truth of the course leading to the ceasing of dukkha. Venerable Bhikkhu Dhammadharo spoke to us about Koaa, the first of the disciples who attained enlightenment. We read that the Buddha said: Indeed, Koaa has understood, indeed, Koaa has understood. Thus it was that A Koaa became the venerable Koaas name. (Vinaya, Mahvagga I, 6. 31) A Koaa had understood, he had crossed over doubt, which means that he had attained the stage of the sotpanna. We read that he asked for ordination and that the Buddha ordained him with the words:Come, monk, well taught is dhamma, fare the Brahma-faring for making an utter end of dukkha. The other four disciples also became sotpannas and asked for ordination. Thus, the Sangha was formed. After the Buddha had taught them more about the five khandhas which are impermanent, dukkha and not self, they all attained arahatship. The full moon was rising and after an outdoor picnic in the garden of the Thai temple we all went around the Stupa three times, paying respect with candles and incense. While we were going around the Stupa we considered nma and rpa. The development of understanding of them is the only way to know that seeing is dukkha, visible object is dukkha, hardness is dukkha, the experience of hardness is dukkha. After the chanting we returned to the Thai temple where we sat outside for another Dhamma conversation. We talked about the perfections the Buddha had accumulated during his lives as a Bodhisatta and we talked about satipahna. ****** Nina. #125773 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sat Aug 4, 2012 1:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Khandhas - audio extract KK 2011 moellerdieter Dear Sarah , all, you wrote: ( I suggest to agree what Howard previously suggested ; it is a matter of speech. > Strictly speaking , making a difference between realities (dhammas ) and concept (khandha, a group of specified dhammas)... .... S: Can you find me any quote from the Tipitaka or ancient commentaries (not Nyantiloka - there are some errors in the dictionary) which suggests khandhas are concepts and not realities (dhammas)? When the suttas repeatedly refer to the understanding of khandhas as anicca, dukkha and anatta, are they referring to concepts as being anicca, dukkha and anatta or to realities(dhammas) as having these ti-lakkhana, do you think? D: Please compare with the previous postings (Synedoche). I don't have anything to add. There are likely some errors in the dictionary - considered that this outstanding work has been published 1950, far from our todays's easy availability of Dhamma sources . One I have in mind ( and this one you certainly not.. ;-) ) is the proposition ( of asankhataa dhamma ) including nibbana in (Paramattha ) dhamma , instead of using asankhataa (dhatu) as a synonym for nibbana. D: the all of dhammas is conditioned , we may speak of the unconditioned (dhatu) = nibbana S: Yes, nibbana is the unconditioned element - also one of the "all of dhammas" to be realized. See the Sabba Sutta. D: I put ' dhatu ' in brackets , because here dhatu must be understood as 'source' ( Term used in compounds such as dharma-dhatu, Buddha-dhatu, loka-dhatu in the sense of 'source' or 'matrix' Oxf.Dict.of Buddhism), not as 'element ', usually in connection with the All/ senses media . Reading the Sabba Sutta below ( translation and note by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.023.than.html ), I assume that you stick to the dubious interpretation of the commentary instead of taking from the sutta what indeed is said . with Metta Dieter S.N.35, 23 Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Note 1. The Commentary's treatment of this discourse is very peculiar. To begin with, it delineates three other "All's" in addition to the one defined here, one of them supposedly larger in scope than the one defined here: the Allness of the Buddha's omniscience (literally, All-knowingness). This, despite the fact that the discourse says that the description of such an all lies beyond the range of explanation. Secondly, the Commentary includes nibbana (unbinding) within the scope of the All described here - as a dhamma, or object of the intellect - even though there are many other discourses in the Canon specifically stating that nibbana lies beyond the range of the six senses and their objects. Sn 5.6, for instance, indicates that a person who has attained nibbana has gone beyond all phenomena (sabbe dhamma), and therefore cannot be described. MN 49 discusses a "consciousness without feature" (vianam anidassanam) that does not partake of the "Allness of the All." Furthermore, the following discourse (SN 35.24) says that the "All" is to be abandoned. At no point does the Canon say that nibbana is to be abandoned. Nibbana follows on cessation (nirodha), which is to be realized. Once nibbana is realized, there are no further tasks to be done. Thus it seems more this discourse's discussion of "All" is meant to limit the use of the word "all" throughout the Buddha's teachings to the six sense spheres and their objects. As the following discourse shows, this would also include the consciousness, contact, and feelings connected with the sense spheres and their objects. Nibbana would lie outside of the word, "all." This would fit in with another point made several times in the Canon: that dispassion is the highest of all dhammas (Iti 90), while the arahant has gone beyond even dispassion (Sn 4.6; Sn 4.10). This raises the question, if the word "all" does not include nibbana, does that mean that one may infer from the statement, "all phenomena are not-self" that nibbana is self? The answer is no. As AN 4.174 states, to even ask if there is anything remaining or not remaining (or both, or neither) after the cessation of the six sense spheres is to differentiate what is by nature undifferentiated (or to objectify the unobjectified - see the Introduction to MN 18). The range of differentiation goes only as far as the "All." Perceptions of self or not-self, which would count as differentiation, would not apply beyond the "All." When the cessation of the "All" is experienced, all differentiation is allayed. . #125774 From: Ken O Date: Sat Aug 4, 2012 11:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) ashkenn2k Dear Rob E Yes Right speech is not just restraining of wrong speech, it is at the moment of speaking where speech is consider right or wrong. Restraining at the moment is the arising of kusala mental factor and not right speech. As you say, this is the same for all body and verbal acts. the moment where it is done, it is where it is consider right or wrong, if not it is just consider the arising of kusala or akusala mental factors cheers KC #125775 From: Ken O Date: Sat Aug 4, 2012 11:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kenh1 ashkenn2k Dear Rob E >I don't think the Buddha ever proposed that the blind monk who stepped on the caterpillars would have been fine if he had stepped on the caterpillars purposely. And if someone keeps killing chickens intentionally after hearing the teachings, that would not be kusala, would it? Don't the teachings say to abstain from killing? K: the act of killing, there must be an intention to kill. If one accidentally steps on a snail or caterpillars, it is not killing because there is no intention to kill. Abstain is the result at the moment when one intents to kill, one stop that act. KC #125776 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Aug 4, 2012 11:35 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. kenhowardau Hi Sarah, ------- <. . .> >> KH: I was suggesting that the monk might have been an ariyan, and the non-arising of akusala kamma patha was due to the destruction (complete or partial) of defilements. >> > S: Regardless of whether there was any understanding on the part of the monk, -------- KH: Sorry for being pedantic, Sarah, but aren't you straying into dangerous territory there? Isn't the Dhamma always about understanding? --------------- > S: regardless of whether he was an ariyan or not, the Buddha stressed that if there were no intention to kill or harm, there is no blame in that regard. ---------------- KH: We must be talking at cross purposes. For whom was there no blame? As we all agree, there was no one there - just a concept. Would the Buddha ever have bothered to point out blame, or no blame, for a mere concept? And getting back to the "regardless of whether there was understanding" point, if there is no understanding there is no way out, and samsara is perpetuated by kusala and akusala alike. Is kusala kamma blameless in those circumstances? If the monk was not an ariyan but a just an uninstructed worldling, the non-arising of akusala kamma patha would have been conditioned by something other than the 8fold path. In that case, this sutta in order to be an exposition of the 8fold path - could only have been about Patimokkha rule making. --------------------- > S: When he lay down the Patimokkha rules it was for all the monks regardless of any attainments. --------------------- KH: In a no-control context those rules can only be for the purpose of describing the Dhamma, can't they? The rules help ariyan and non-ariyan monks to behave in a manner that is metaphorical (descriptive) of the path factors. If conditions don't permit adherence to the rules then the monk disrobes without disgrace. So they are rules by name only (not in the ordinary sense). --------------------------------- > S: I agree with you that all such rules were taught together with satipatthana. --------------------------------- KH It's hard to have an argument with all this agreement going on, but we are managing quite well. :-) ---------- > S: I may be missing your point..... ---------- KH: My new approach to sutta discussions is to hop in and have a go. Previously I thought I should at least wait until I knew which topic the sutta was addressing. (Or, as in this case, whether the monk in question was an ariyan or not.) A lot of egg-on-face can be avoided that way, but what the heck! As long as I interpret the sutta in a way that is consistent with the Dhamma I can't go far wrong. Ken H #125777 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Aug 4, 2012 2:57 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. epsteinrob Hi Sarah. > > >KH: Why was that monk not blamed by the Buddha? Was it because he did not intentionally kill anything? I don't think so. He intentionally walked even though there was a caterpillar plague and walking would, in his case, inevitably mean killing. So it was the same thing. > > > >R: I'm not sure if you can draw that conclusion. > ... > S: I don't agree with Ken H there either. He was not blamed because he did not intentionally kill. This is quite different from knowing that inevitably when we walk down a path, dig the earth or breathe the air that insects will be harmed. The Buddha did not follow the Jain approach because it all comes down to the intention to harm, dosa-rooted cittas. That is a very different emphasis than focusing on 'harmful acts.' Though I've taken the latter point of view to some extent in my conversations with Jon, I understand your point. > >The fact that the monk was blind has something to do with the story, and it is his blindness that made it impossible for him to navigate without killing the caterpillars. There is usually a practical understanding in Buddhism that there are certain extreme conditions that cannot be met. One can drink alcohol as part of a medicinal potion, but not for recreation. One can't kill intentionally but one can be forgiven for killing when it is unavoidable. Could the monk live without walking anywhere? What was the alternative? > .... > S: The precepts are not "cans" and can'ts" - they are a description of particular cittas, particular intentions, kamma patha and the consequences of such. With regard to alcohol, there is not necessarily any akusala kamma patha involved at all. That is interesting. > The harm is in the accumulation and leading to breaking the other precepts, more akusala kamma patha. > ... > > > >R: In Jainism those who are orthodox wear a net over their face so they won't accidentally inhale small insects and kill them. Buddhism rejects this kind of extreme. > ... > S: Exactly - because it is looking at situations rather than intentions. > .... Okay. ... > >R: And yet definite conventional actions are praised and blamed by the Buddha, and I believe that this aspect of Dhamma is meant to be taken seriously, as I believe does Rob K. I think you are wrong on this one. There is no controlling person, but actions still have consequences. > ... > S: You've continued to have an interesting discussion with Jon on this topic. It is always just dhammas that can be understood - cittas, cetasikas and rupas appearing now, one at a time. I wonder if we can say that the physical aspect of kamma patha is purely expressed in terms of rupas...? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #125778 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 4, 2012 5:36 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, The Buddha taught for fortyfive years and when he was eighty he passed finally away. In Kusnara we visited the place of his parinibbna and the place of his cremation. A temple with a recumbent Buddha image marks the place of his parinibbna. When the Buddha was resting he was doing so in the lions posture: lying on his right side, putting one foot on the other, collected and composed, with his mind set on rising up again (Kindred Sayings IV, Fourth Fifty, Ch IV, 202). He lay down in the lions posture also when the time had come for his parinibbna, the end of the cycle of birth and death. We read in the Mah-Parinibbna Sutta (Dialogues of the Buddha II, no. 16) that simultaneously with his parinibbna the Brahm Sahampati said: All must depart-- all beings that have life Must shed their compound forms. Yea, even one, A Master such as he, a peerless being, Has passed away. We read that Sakka, King of the Devas said: All transient are the elements of life; Into existence having come, they pass away, Good is the peace when they forever cease. It was already dark when we went around the large Stupa, erected near the temple. While going around we remembered the Buddhas last words not to be heedless but to be mindful; mindful of what appears at the present moment. During our pilgrimage we followed the same procedure at all the holy places we visited. We paid respect with candles, incense and chanting and we considered the Dhamma. Whenever there was an opportunity we would have a conversation on satipatthna. When we entered the bus again we would continue our Dhamma conversation. We also visited some other places where the Buddha used to stay, such as Rjagaha, where we climbed the Vultures Peak and saw excavations at the sites where once were the dwelling places of the Buddha and his disciples. ****** Nina. #125779 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Aug 4, 2012 11:47 pm Subject: "More kusala means less murders" jonoabb Hi Rob E (125664) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > RE: Yes, I understand what you are saying now and how it may be relevant. However, I think that as enough kusala develops to warrant any interest in development of the path, the likelihood of committing murder probably falls close to zero. Have you met any Dhamma students lately who are in jail for murder? I'm not sure if there are any, but I doubt it. So while the explicit development of the path may take a while to get around to ending defilements, the kusala involved in any degree of the path is the opposite sort of accumulations from those that would lead to murder. Would you disagree with this? > =============== J: Regarding "as enough kusala develops to warrant any interest in development of the path, the likelihood of committing murder probably falls close to zero", possibly so, but my interest is in the principles of the teachings set out in the texts and not in suppositions that are not part of those principles and that cannot be confirmed by reference to those principles. There is a danger, in my view, in using such suppositions as a basis for one's views and/or the development of the path. Better to keep to matters that are mentioned in the Pali Canon. In any event, there is a sutta in which a person who still drinks alcohol attains enlightenment, so that would tend to show there was no necessary correlation between level of sila and level of development of understanding. > =============== > RE: I'm not saying it's impossible or that there is no intense akusala arising for someone interested in Dhamma, just that the accumulations are going to be generally quite different. > =============== J: Regarding "for someone interested in Dhamma, the accumulations are going to be generally quite different", I think you mean the *behaviour* is likely to be different. To my understanding, *accumulated tendencies* that existed before the person became interested in the teachings do not change. And while there may well be a change in behaviour for many/most, it is not a principle of the teachings that this must be so, as far as I'm aware. > =============== > RE: I mean, I consider myself just a tiny baby on the path, but it would take an awfully horrifying situation to get me anywhere close to seriously harming someone. I might react violently in self-defense if someone were trying to kill me, but I'm aware enough, even as a tiny baby, not to want to do anything really terrible, even when I [very occasionally, ha ha] get angry. > =============== J: Regarding, "it would take an awfully horrifying situation to get me anywhere close to seriously harming someone", we really have no idea what (horrifying or worse) situations vipaka has in store for us in this life, and it's quite possible that something will happen that arouses strong akusala emotions (e.g., grief, regret, revenge, jealousy) that we didn't know we had. The thing is that all the gross accumulated tendencies with which we were born remain accumulated, even though they may have been relatively latent since we became interested in the teachings. Jon #125780 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Aug 5, 2012 12:12 am Subject: Breach of precepts as a bar to path development jonoabb Hi Rob E (125674) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: There is no required minimum level of sila in order for an understanding of dhammas to begin to develop. Everyone starts from where they are. > > > > So for example, if a person who earns his living by slaughtering chickens hears the teachings on the development of the path for the first time in his present life and, by virtue of understanding accumulated in previous lives, understands what he has heard, his current occupation would be no obstacle to the arising of awareness of dhammas. > > RE: I don't disagree that such a moment could arise, and if it did, would not be stopped by his occupation. But if the man had that moment of understanding would he then continue to slaughter chickens? And if he did so, would he continue to develop kusala? It seems to me that a butcher who entered the path would either stop killing chickens or have an ongoing conflict. > =============== J: Regarding, "a butcher who entered the path would either stop killing chickens or have an ongoing conflict", I don't know of any principle of the teachings that supports this notion (I am assuming the person is not a stream-enterer). Nor do I see there necessarily being any conflict. Do you mean perhaps a moral dilemma? I think that would depend very much on the nature/personality and the understanding of the person in question. > =============== > RE: I don't think the Buddha ever proposed that the blind monk who stepped on the caterpillars would have been fine if he had stepped on the caterpillars purposely. And if someone keeps killing chickens intentionally after hearing the teachings, that would not be kusala, would it? Don't the teachings say to abstain from killing? > =============== J: Regarding "Don't the teachings say to abstain from killing?", the teachings point out the disadvantage of such conduct, but do not prohibit it as such. In particular, there is no statement in the teachings to the effect that the development of understanding of dhammas cannot take place if one is acting in breach of one of the 5 precepts. > =============== > RE: On the other hand we all have various akusala arising all the time and all do actions we are not especially proud of. I agree with you that does not stop anyone from being on the path, although I think it may prevent progress past a certain point until such habits are dropped. Do you disagree? Can one go on killing chickens past the 1st, 2nd, 3rd stage of insight? Can the killing go on forever until one reaches the level where killing is impossible? > =============== J: As from the 1st stage of insight there is no longer the possibility of intentionally taking life. All the latent tendencies that would support such an act have been fully and finally eradicated. Before that, the intentional taking of life is theoretically possible. However, I don't think there's any purpose in speculating how likely that would be. Regarding the idea that bad habits "may prevent progress past a certain point until such habits are dropped", I know of no such proposition in the texts. In those suttas where the factors for the development of understanding are set out, there is no mention of having to drop/overcome bad habits or even of improving one's sila. So I think the supposition you are making is not a safe one to make. As I understand the teachings, when the path is being developed, sila is being developed also. Jon #125781 From: "colette_aube" Date: Sun Aug 5, 2012 5:07 am Subject: Re: Breach of precepts as a bar to path development colette_aube Hi Jon and Robert E, If I may, it seems to me that Robert E is viewing EVERYTHING as existing on HIS SCALE OF VALUE, HIS HIERARCHICAL VALUE STRUCTURE/SCALE. With that as the case, then, I don't see how he could possibly understand what it means to be a "STREAM ENTERER" Firstly, as an example of the concept I'm speaking of, there is very little correspondence to THE BUDDHA'S CONSCIOUSNESS, BACK THEN, and OUR CONSCIOUSNESS TODAY. While there are and can be similarities between the two states of consciousness we must acknowledge that TIME is an issue that has to be transcended before running off declaring an exact correspondence between the two. Secondly, for lack of better terms, "TIME IN POSITION" which is to say an "Abiding In". This "Abiding In" can be achieved through MEDITATIONAL PRACTICES, however, for a "butcher" (your example), in today's lifestyle, to find anywhere near enough time to "abide in" the nama conditions of MEDITATION required to achieve an "abiding in" condition, is near lunacy if not insanity. So, to just examine the two things that impede a person's progress on the path we can easily go back to the beginning where I showed that it is a problem with the devotion to, the dependence on, HIERARCHY and the HIERARCHICAL SCALE as being the problem that obscures Robert's ability to perceive another person's ability to enter the stream. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Rob E > > (125674) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > > J: There is no required minimum level of sila in order for an understanding of dhammas to begin to develop. Everyone starts from where they are. > > > > > > So for example, if a person who earns his living by slaughtering chickens hears the teachings on the development of the path for the first time in his present life and, by virtue of understanding accumulated in previous lives, understands what he has heard, his current occupation would be no obstacle to the arising of awareness of dhammas. > > > > RE: I don't disagree that such a moment could arise, and if it did, would not be stopped by his occupation. But if the man had that moment of understanding would he then continue to slaughter chickens? And if he did so, would he continue to develop kusala? It seems to me that a butcher who entered the path would either stop killing chickens or have an ongoing conflict. > > =============== <...> #125782 From: Ken O Date: Sun Aug 5, 2012 2:44 pm Subject: Satipatthana 3 - Mundane or Supramundane or Mixed ashkenn2k Dear all Commentary to Right View This right view is twofold: mundane (lokiya) and supramundane (lokuttara). Herein, the knowledge of kamma as one's own and knowledge which is in conformity with the (Four Noble) Truths are mundane right view; or, in brief, (mundane right view is) all understanding that is accompanied by the taints. Understanding connected with the noble paths and fruits is supramundane right view.[3]The person possessing right view is of three kinds: the worldling (puthujjana), the disciple in higher training (sekha), and the one beyond training (asekha). Herein, the worldling is of two kinds: one outside the Dispensation and one within the Dispensation. Herein, one outside the Dispensation who believes in kamma is one of right view on account of the view of kamma as one's own, but not on account of that which is in conformity with the truths, because he holds to the view of self. One within the Dispensation is of right view on account of both. The disciple in higher training is one of right view on account of fixed right view, the one beyond training on account of (the right view) that is beyond training. Commentary to Minduflness Regarding "the only way" there is the following account of a discussion that took place long ago. The Elder Tipitaka Culla Naga said: "The Way of Mindfulness-arousing (as expounded in our Discourse) is the (mundane) preliminary part (of the Eightfold Way)." His teacher the Elder Culla Summa said: "The Way is a mixed one (a way that is both mundane and supramundane)." The pupil: "Reverend Sir, it is the preliminary part." The teacher: "Friend, it is the mixed Way." As the teacher was insistent, the pupil became silent. They went away without coming to a decision. On the way to the bathing place the teacher considered the matter. He recited the Discourse. When he came to the part where it is said: "O bhikkhus, should any person maintain the Four Arousings of Mindfulness in this manner for seven years," he concluded that after producing the consciousness of the Supramundane Path there was no possibility of continuing in that state of mind for seven years, and that his pupil, Culla Naga, was right. On that very day, which happened to be the eighth of the lunar fortnight, it was the elder Culla Naga's turn to expound the Dhamma. When the exposition was about to begin, the Elder Culla Summa went to the Hall of Preaching and stood behind the pulpit. After the pupil had recited the preliminary stanzas the teacher spoke to the pupil in the hearing of others, saying, "Friend, Culla Naga." The pupil heard the voice of his teacher and replied: "What is it, Reverend Sir?" The teacher said this: "To say, as I did, that the Way is a mixed one is not right. You are right in calling it the preliminary part of the Way of Mindfulness-arousing." Thus the Elders of old were not envious and did not go about holding up only what they liked as though it were a bundle of sugar-cane. They took up what was rational; they gave up what was not. Thereupon, the pupil, realising that on a point on which experts of the Dhamma like his learned teacher had floundered, fellows of the holy life in the future were more likely to be unsure, thought: "With the authority of a citation from the Discourse-collection, I will settle this question." Therefore, he brought out and placed before his hearers the following statement from the Patisambhida Magga: "The preliminary part of the Way of Mindfulness-arousing is called the only way." And, in order to elaborate just that and to show of which path or way the instruction in our Discourse is the preliminary part, he further quoted the following also from the Patisambhida Magga: "The Excellent Way is the Eightfold way; four are truths; dispassion is the best of things belonging to the wise; besides that Way there is no other for the purifying of vision. Walk along that Way so that you may confound Death, and put an end to suffering." Personal Note - the dicussion between the pupil and the teacher is part of the Only Way definition by the commentary. It will come next Dispeller of Delusion pg 354 For only in the Suttanta Division are the foundation of Mindulness expounded by the Blessed One as mundane and supramundane mixed. But in the Abhidhamma Division and Questionaire, they are supramudane only. KC #125783 From: Ken O Date: Sun Aug 5, 2012 2:51 pm Subject: Satipatthana 4 - The Only Way 1 ashkenn2k Dear all Commentary to Mindfulness "The only way" = The one way [Ekayanoti ekamaggo]. There are many words for "way." The word used for "way" here is "ayana" ("going" or road). Therefore, "This is the only way, O bhikkhus [ekayano ayam bhikkhave maggo]" means here: "A single way ("going" or road), O bhikkhus, is this way; it is not of the nature of a double way [ekamaggo ayam bhikkhave maggo na dvedhapathabhuto]." Or it is "the only way" because it has to be trodden by oneself only [ekeneva ayitabbo]. That is without a companion. The state of being companionless is twofold: without a comrade, after abandoning contact with the crowd, and in the sense of being withdrawn (or secluded) from craving, through tranquillity of mind. Or it is called "ekayana" because it is the way of the one [ekassa ayana]. "Of the one" = of the best; of all beings the Blessed One is best. Therefore, it is called the Blessed One's Way. Although others too go along that way, it is the Buddha's because he creates it. Accordingly it is said: "He, the Blessed One, is the creator of the uncreated path, O Brahman." It proceeds (or exists) only in this Doctrine-and-discipline and not in any other. Accordingly the Master declared: "Subhadda, only in this Doctrine-and-discipline is the Eightfold Way to be found." And further, "ekayana" means: It goes to the one [ekam ayati] — that is, it (the way) goes solely to Nibbana. Although in the earlier stages this method of meditation proceeds on different lines, in the latter, it goes to just the one Nibbana. And that is why Brahma Sahampati said: Whose mind perceiving life's last dying out Vibrates with love, he knows the only way That led in ancient times, is leading now, And in the future will lead past the flood.[6] As Nibbana is without a second, that is, without craving as accompanying quality, it is called the one. Hence it is said: "Truth is one; it is without a second." Why is the Arousing of Mindfulness intended by the word "way"? Are there not many other factors of the way, namely, understanding, thinking, speech, action, livelihood, effort, and concentration, besides mindfulness? To be sure there are. But all these are implied when the Arousing of Mindfulness is mentioned, because these factors exist in union with mindfulness. Knowledge, energy and the like are mentioned in the analytically expository portion [niddese]. In the synopsis [uddese], however, the consideration should be regarded as that of mindfulness alone, by way of the mental disposition of those capable of being trained. Some [keci], however, construing according to the stanza beginning with the words, "They do not go twice to the further shore [na param digunam yanti]"[7]say, "One goes to Nibbana once, therefore it is ekayana." This explanation is not proper. Because in this instruction the earlier part of the Path is intended to be presented, the preliminary part of the Way of Mindfulness proceeding in the four objects of contemplation is meant here, and not the supramundane Way of Mindfulness. And that preliminary part of the Path proceeds (for the aspirant) many times; or it may be said that there is many a going on it, by way of repetition of practice. In what sense is it a "way"? In the sense of the path going towards Nibbana, and in the sense of the path which is the one that should be (or is fit to be) traversed by those who wish to reach Nibbana. KC #125784 From: Ken O Date: Sun Aug 5, 2012 2:53 pm Subject: Satitpatthana 4 - The Only Way 2 ashkenn2k Dear all Commentary to Mindfulness Since the Blessed one does not at first make people conversant with the usage of the Dispensation and after that teach the Doctrine to them, and as he by various discourses sets forth various meanings, he explained the things which "the only way" effects, with the words "For the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation," and so forth. Or it may be said that the Master explained the things accomplished by "the only way," in this manner, in order to show that every thing which leads to the purification of beings by the "only way" is dependent on the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation; that this overcoming is dependent on the destruction of suffering and grief; and that the destruction of suffering and grief is dependent on the reaching of the right path which is in turn dependent on the attainment of Nibbana. It is a declaration of the method of deliverance, by "the only way." Further, this is an expression of praise of "the only way." Just as the Blessed One by way of eight characteristics expressed praise in the Cha Chakka Sutta, and by way of nine characteristics in the Ariyavamsa Sutta, just in the same way he expressed praise of this "only way," through the seven characteristics contained in the words "For the purification of beings," and so forth. Why did he utter talk of praise of this kind? For the purpose of bringing out the interest of these bhikkhus. The Blessed One thought: "Having heard the utterance of praise, these bhikkhus will believe that his way casts out the four onrushings [cattaro upaddave harati], namely sorrow produced by distress of heart [hadaya santapabhutam sokam], lamentation characterised by confused talk [vaca vipallabhutam paridevam], suffering produced by disagreeable bodily feeling [kayikam asatabhutam dukkham], and grief produced by disagreeable thought [cetasikam asatabhutam domanassam] and that it brings the three extraordinary spiritual attainments of purity, knowledge, and Nibbana [visuddhim anam Nibbananti tayo visese avahati] and will be convinced that this instruction should be studied (imam dhammadesanam uggahetabbam], mastered [pariyapunnitabbam], borne in mind [dharetabbam], and memorized [vacetabbam], and that this way should be cultivated [imaca maggam bhavetabbam]." KC #125785 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 5, 2012 6:29 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 6, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, We visited the Jeta Grove near Svatth where the Buddha stayed for twentyfive rainy seasons. Also at that site one can see the excavations where the dwelling places of the Buddha and his disciples were located. Anthapindika whose house was not far away had offered the Jeta Grove to the Buddha. He visited the Buddha several times a day and also other people who lived in the village nearby came to see the Buddha towards the evening in order to hear him preach the Dhamma. Acharn Sujin said to us that people who walked in this Grove walked with mindfulness. This was a reminder for us not to be forgetful of nma and rpa while we walked. The Jeta Grove is full of trees, it is still a real Grove. We were sitting on the grass, under the trees, near the site of the Buddhas dwelling place. We had a Dhamma conversation while many birds were singing. Nearby was a well with very clear water which must have been there since long ago. We all drank this water from a cup we passed around. Acharn Sujin said that we should have great patience while we develop satipatthna. Awareness should be developed so that we do not confuse anymore the different realities appearing through the six doors. We should not take them as a whole, but their true nature should be realized as they appear one at a time. Through the eyes only visible object or colour can be experienced. We do not see Jeta Grove. Jeta Grove is a concept we are thinking of; it is different from visible object. Visible object should be known as it is: only visible object, a kind of rpa that is experienced through the eyes. There is no Jeta Grove in the visible object. Through the ears only sound can be experienced. We do not hear the birds of Jeta Grove, that is again a kind of thinking. Sound is only sound, it should be realized as it is. There are no birds in the sound. Visible object, sound, our thinking of Jeta Grove, our memory of Jeta Grove, all these realities are impermanent, they fall away. Satipatthna should be developed with great patience until there is no Jeta Grove in the visible object and visible object is realized as it is; until there are no birds of Jeta Grove in the sound and sound is realized as it is. All phenomena should be known as they are so that we are no longer deluded about reality. This was the best Dhamma conversation we could possibly have in this place, because the subject was the same as what the Buddha always taught and had taught also here: the eye, seeing and colour, the ear, hearing and sound, all phenomena should be realized as they are: not a person, not something, not self. ******* Nina. #125786 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Aug 5, 2012 10:54 pm Subject: Conventional activities as part of the path (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Hi Rob E (125711) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > Pt. 2. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > RE: Jon, citing Bikkhu Bodhi: > =============== J: Thanks for the comments setting out your hypothesis regarding actions and what you call the "physical expression of cetana". However, you have not commented on the main point of the Bhikkhu Bodhi passage, namely, that only wholesome kamma generated by developing the NEP leads to enlightenment, while all other wholesome kamma leads to pleasant results within the round of rebirths. To my understanding, `developing the NEP' is here a reference to awareness/insight, and not to other forms of kusala (dana, sila and samatha bhavana). Jon #125787 From: "philip" Date: Sun Aug 5, 2012 11:03 pm Subject: Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 6, no 5. philofillet Dear Nina > Acharn Sujin said that we should have great patience while we > develop satipatthna. Awareness should be developed so that we do not > confuse anymore the different realities appearing through the six > doors. We should not take them as a "whole", but their true nature > should be realized as they appear one at a time. Through the eyes > only visible object or colour can be experienced. We do not see Jeta > Grove. Jeta Grove is a concept we are thinking of; it is different > from visible object. Visible object should be known as it is: only > visible object, a kind of rpa that is experienced through the eyes. > There is no Jeta Grove in the visible object. Through the ears only > sound can be experienced. We do not hear the birds of Jeta Grove, > that is again a kind of thinking. Sound is only sound, it should be > realized as it is. There are no birds in the sound. Visible object, > sound, our thinking of Jeta Grove, our memory of Jeta Grove, all > these realities are impermanent, they fall away. Satipatthna should > be developed with great patience until there is no Jeta Grove in the > visible object and visible object is realized as it is; until there > are no birds of Jeta Grove in the sound and sound is realized as it > is. All phenomena should be known as they are so that we are no > longer deluded about reality. This was the best Dhamma conversation > we could possibly have in this place, Thank you very much for this stirring post, Nina. I am sitting on the porch at the country house, my earthly paradise, so many stories about so many summers here, but in reality only visible object et al. Also a big story about my health ( shingles, it seems, diagnosis will be confirmed today.) When there is this kind of pain, patience is not strong for me and I turn to strategies. Meditating, gaining a sense of witnessing the pain, not identifying with it, also watching the emotional responses to it, it helps. But it's all about self making machinations for personal comfort... Phil because the subject was the > same as what the Buddha always taught and had taught also here: the > eye, seeing and colour, the ear, hearing and sound, all phenomena > should be realized as they are: not a person, not "something", not self. > > ******* > > Nina. > > > #125788 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 8:43 am Subject: Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 6, no 5. jonoabb Hi Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Dear Nina > > Thank you very much for this stirring post, Nina. I am sitting on the porch at the country house, my earthly paradise, so many stories about so many summers here, but in reality only visible object et al. Also a big story about my health ( shingles, it seems, diagnosis will be confirmed today.) When there is this kind of pain, patience is not strong for me and I turn to strategies. Meditating, gaining a sense of witnessing the pain, not identifying with it, also watching the emotional responses to it, it helps. But it's all about self making machinations for personal comfort... > =============== J: Sorry to hear about the health issues. Shingles is a tough one, according to all those who've had the misfortune. Good luck with the strategies. There's also the Dhamma to listen to or contemplate (but not as a strategy, of course!!). Jon #125789 From: "philip" Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 11:07 am Subject: Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 6, no 5. philofillet Hi Jon > J: Sorry to hear about the health issues. Shingles is a tough one, according to all those who've had the misfortune. Thanks, from what I've read online my pain is relatively mild, more related to the extraordinary band of blistering rash (*my* band, did I create that thing?) than with the neural stuff. - Good luck with the strategies. There's also the Dhamma to listen to or contemplate (but not as a strategy, of course!!) Right, reflection on the Dhamma is helpful, needless to say a lot of reflection on the second dart. But not as a strategy, when reflection on the Dhamma arises, it arises. Posts like the one by Nina that I responded to are treasures for bringing it back. Phil #125790 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 12:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 6, no 5. upasaka_howard Hi, Phil (and Jon) - In a message dated 8/5/2012 9:07:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi Jon > J: Sorry to hear about the health issues. Shingles is a tough one, according to all those who've had the misfortune. Thanks, from what I've read online my pain is relatively mild, more related to the extraordinary band of blistering rash (*my* band, did I create that thing?) than with the neural stuff. - Good luck with the strategies. There's also the Dhamma to listen to or contemplate (but not as a strategy, of course!!) Right, reflection on the Dhamma is helpful, needless to say a lot of reflection on the second dart. But not as a strategy, when reflection on the Dhamma arises, it arises. Posts like the one by Nina that I responded to are treasures for bringing it back. Phil ============================== Phil, I'm sorry to hear you may have the shingles, but I'm pleased that your case seems to be a mild one. I've heard that it often can be gotten rid of fairly quickly, though an aunt of my wife's had a difficult time with it. Best of luck with this. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #125791 From: "philip" Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 2:40 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 6, no 5. philofillet Hi Howard > Phil, I'm sorry to hear you may have the shingles, but I'm pleased > that your case seems to be a mild one. I've heard that it often can be gotten > rid of fairly quickly, though an aunt of my wife's had a difficult time > with it. Best of luck with this. Thanks. I will hang in there. Ok, thanks everyone. Enough about my shingles. I appreciate your concern. Phil #125792 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 3:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 6, no 5. nilovg Dear Phil, Op 5-aug-2012, om 15:03 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > I am sitting on the porch at the country house, my earthly > paradise, so many stories about so many summers here, but in > reality only visible object et al. Also a big story about my health > ( shingles, it seems, diagnosis will be confirmed today.) When > there is this kind of pain, patience is not strong for me and I > turn to strategies. -------- N: Pain and sickness, it is so daily. But difficult to be always patient. I just heard a recording, Kh Sujin spoke about some one who got sick on an India tour: what happens has to happen. Lodewijk and I discuss this so much these days. He asked me to type out more of such recordings. He keeps me busy, but in a good sense. I will post it later on. He wants more and more Dhamma talks. I hope you will soon feel better, and fortunately it can be cured. ------- Nina. #125793 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 4:09 pm Subject: What I heard, sickness. nilovg Dear friends, Khun Jutiman became sick on an India Tour. Kh Sujin said that we need not be troubled or worry about what we should do. -------- Nina. #125794 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 4:15 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. epsteinrob Hi Sarah. > > >Rob K: IMHO the insect exterminator would be making akusala. I would never advise him to stop his job - heaven forbid-in fact please make him the pre-eminent insect exterminator in the country. > > > >Rob E: It seems to me that this continues an unresolved issue about conventional activities. Ken H. is correctly following his very strict understanding that paramatha dhammas and kusala and akusala have *nothing* to do with conventional activities and events as we experience them in everyday life. *Nothing,* because there is no relation between what are pure concepts, such as killing an insect, performing an abortion, or finding the mind connected to the brain, and actual paramatha dhammas, which are merely kusala or akusala dhammas that arise in a single individual moment. > .... > S: I think the point is that there are only paramattha dhammas. Anything else is a 'story'. > .... > > >R: I agree with what I think is Rob K.'s view. It does not make sense to me to say you can be a Buddhist simply by understanding dhammas, without any regard to whether you are killing beings or not, drinking, engaging in wrong livelihood, wrong speech and action, etc. in everyday life. > ... > S: "Simply by understanding dhammas...." What else is there to understand? Well the question is whether understanding is everything. It is the leader, and it is the ultimate, but is it the entire path? Is it okay to see "killing a chicken" as merely dhammas and simply "understand" them and keep killing the chicken? That's the question I think that is raised regarding conventional actions - do they count, or not? It is not only a question of whether there is akusala intention. I think we can agree that without akusala intention/volition the action would not "count." The question is, if akusala cetana leads to 'completed physical kamma patha,' eg, killing a chicken, is the action of killing a chicken the expression of the akusala cetana, and in addition, is that not worse than merely having the cetana and not acting on it? I think it is clear in various scriptures that it is worse if the action is carried out than if it is just intended, and if so, that means that conventional actions express dhammas and have a role in the path, as I think the Buddha often expressed with various descriptions, admonitions and directives. Even if the above is the case, understanding the nature of the dhammas involved is still the essential ingredient in development, but the life of action that is being lived and that is expressing kusala or akusala cetana is also important. > Whatever the activity, there are only dhammas. Understanding these dhammas more and more precisely when they arise, when they appear is the only way that akusala of all kinds can ever be eradicated. Understanding is the forerunner, the leader, just like the dawn. > ... > > Maybe this issue could be raised with K. Sujin? > .... > S: Sure. Could you write a two or three line qu of exactly what you'd like to ask her. I'll be glad to raise it. I think I would ask: Does it matter what we do? Can a person be 'on the path' while having a livelihood as someone who kills animals for a living? Can we kill someone and still be 'on the path?' Can we experience development of kusala while engaging in clearly harmful and forbidden conventional activities, such as unlawful sexual activity, drinking, gambling, gossiping, sowing of dissension, speaking badly of the Buddha, killing people, beating people up? Does it matter, or is understanding dhammas the *only* ingredient of the path? In terms of the path and bhavana, does it matter if a monk breaks precepts? All of the above are conventional activities, but can also be seen as the expression of kusala or akusala cetana. What is the right way to look at such activities and the kamma patha that they represent? If that is too long, I will try to cut it down... Thanks much, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #125795 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 4:20 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 7, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 7. Clinging to Sati. The Buddha who had fulfilled all the perfections in order to be able to teach us Dhamma, has passed finally away. Today there are still his teachings and the Order of monks. The Tipitaka (the Three Baskets of the Buddhist teachings) were preserved for a long time only by oral tradition. They were rehearsed for the first time during the First Council, convened three months after the Buddhas parinibbna. Under the presidency of Mah-Kassapa fivehundred arahats recited together the teachings. Among them was nanda who had attained arahatship on the eve of the Council. The Second Council was convened one century later at Vesl. The Third Council was held during the reign of King Asoka, in the third century B.C. at Ptaliputta. King Asoka was very active at the propagation of Buddhism. He instituted state pilgrimages to the Buddhist holy places instead of pleasure trips which were formerly undertaken by kings. He erected at the holy places monuments and memorial columns and on some of these he had rules of morality inscribed. After the Third Council King Asoka sent missionaries to different countries in order to propagate the Buddhist teachings. The arahat Mahinda, who is said to be his son, was sent to Sri Lanka where he founded the Great Monastery. Here the Tipitaka was committed to writing for the first time and the commentaries were translated into Sinhalese. Before leaving for Sri Lanka in order to spread the teachings, Mahinda came to the monastery on the hill of Sanchi. This monastery had formerly been built for him. He came in order to take leave of his mother who is said to have stayed there as a bhikkhun. We visited the stupas of Sanchi which are situated on the hill. One can see the stupa where relics of the Buddha were kept and the stupa containing the relics of Sariputta and Moggallana. At the south Gateway of the main Stupa there is a remnant of a pillar erected by King Asoka. We walked downhill and saw on the way excavations of the sites of the bhikkhuns quarters, where Mahindas mother is said to have stayed. Further down the hill we passed another monument marking the place where Mahindas teacher, who was also an arahat, used to stay. Many people, even after the Buddha had passed away, attained arahatship and, thus, made an end to the cycle of birth and death. -------- Nina. #125796 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 4:21 pm Subject: Re: 2007 audio - 20. Seclusion now! epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > I hope this is not taken the wrong way, but this is very 'zen.' In a good way... The idea that the teaching is realized in the moment and that there is only the reality of this moment is an approach that I think is shared by K. Sujin with the zen masters. I'm sure everything else is very different, but I find it pretty neat, from opposite ends of the spectrum. > ... > S: Yes, I know what you mean. A good friend refers to the "Manjushri sword" when K.Sujin responds - same idea. Back to this moment, cutting through the stories. Yes, and I enjoy that about the stories of K. Sujin's answers. They can be very refreshing. > > In one zen story, the monk is chastised for saying that a 'bird has flown away' because he is thinking about the past event and the absence of the bird rather than the reality of the moment. > > > > The moment of thinking can also be known as such, but I don't think the zen master would disagree with that either. > ... > S: Right. We all agree on the present moment, but we have to be more and more precise about what the present moment, the present dhamma is. So, not enough to say "be aware now", must be 'be aware of seeing, visible object, hardness......whatever appears now". The clear distinction between namas and rupas can only be known in this way - by knowing particular dhammas that appear. Okay, that is a good point. > > Anyway, I will now go hide... > ... > S: Pls don't!! :-) Thanks, Sarah - I appear to still be here... Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - #125797 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 4:32 pm Subject: Conventional activities as part of the path (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Hi Jon. [and short note to Ken O.] --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: I agree that when there is awareness/insight (i.e., the development of the path), sila will also be developed. The person who understands the path also appreciates the value of sila, in fact moreso that does the person who is not developing the path. Okay, that makes sense. > That is not the same as saying, however, that "bad behaviour" necessarily ceases in the person who is developing the path. There is no principle of the teachings that behaviour has to be of a certain level in order for the development of the path to proceed. I would certainly understand that behavior would not necessarily be cleaned up all at once just by a certain degree of understanding, but it would have a positive influence, as I think you suggest above. > > =============== > > RE: Well I think talking about a single moment of awareness is fine for purposes of gradual accumulation, but obviously one would have to be at a point where awareness was arising regularly to change behavior, and I am sure at that point it would, whether that is its purpose or not. There are no reports of Buddha's advanced disciples running around stealing or beating people, or cursing at each other. That would not express their level of understanding and the suttas have mentioned such things on any number of occasions - the peace and equanimity that takes place, and the courtesy and awareness of others and how to behave around them among his followers. > > =============== > > J: Regarding, "There are no reports of Buddha's advanced disciples running around stealing or beating people, or cursing at each other", that may well be so, but the question we're discussing is whether it is part of the teaching of the Buddha that there must be the development of sila to a certain (as yet unspecified) degree if the development of insight is to proceed. I don't believe there is such a principle expounded by the Buddha. I might agree that the path can start at any time, and kusala can arise at any time. Not sure though if there can be great development without some development of sila - even if it's not a specific rule or a given degree. I think the Buddha seems to take it as a given that his more advanced followers will behave themselves accordingly, and they generally seem to do so, except on occasions when particular conflicts or problems arise. It's also true that certain really big obstacles to development can arise among advanced disciples, as happened with the pride of the bhikkus in the Mulapariyaya sutta, which I have been reading lately, [thanks very much to Ken O. for the book!!!] And then the Buddha seems to confront them directly, seeing how such obstacles are standing in the way. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #125798 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 4:35 pm Subject: [dsg] What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Hi Ken O. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Rob E > > Yes Right speech is not just restraining of wrong speech, it is at the moment of speaking where speech is consider right or wrong. Restraining at the moment is the arising of kusala mental factor and not right speech. As you say, this is the same for all body and verbal acts. the moment where it is done, it is where it is consider right or wrong, if not it is just consider the arising of kusala or akusala mental factors Thanks for your view on this. It seems that the akusala mental factors will still create akusala kamma, but that the kamma is worse if the akusala is completed through action. Does that accord with what you are saying? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - #125799 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 4:37 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Hi Ken O. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > >I don't think the Buddha ever proposed that the blind monk who stepped on the caterpillars would have been fine if he had stepped on the caterpillars purposely. And if someone keeps killing chickens intentionally after hearing the teachings, that would not be kusala, would it? Don't the teachings say to abstain from killing? > > K: the act of killing, there must be an intention to kill. If one accidentally steps on a snail or caterpillars, it is not killing because there is no intention to kill. Abstain is the result at the moment when one intents to kill, one stop that act. Obviously if one is purposely killing chickens for a living, there is intention to kill, although the person may not think of it that way. They may see the chickens as food and not see them as beings. I wonder if that creates a complication in the kamma, or if any intentional killing is equally bad? Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = =