#126600 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhs nilovg Dear pt and all, Op 20-sep-2012, om 4:03 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > pt: I guess I don't understand what is the meaning of "Dhammaa with > root causes", as opposed to just "Dhammaa". ------ N: Just a guess, it seems to me that hetu refers to pahaatabba, rather than to the dhammas. It could be an emphasis that pahaatabba is very strong, really eliminated with root and all. The term pahaatabbahetukaa is written together as one word. An idea? Text: 9. (ka) dassanena pahaatabbahetukaa dhammaa. ------ Nina. #126601 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:03 pm Subject: Sri Lanka revisited, Ch 2, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 2 Some aspects of Síla We read in the “Discourse on an Exhortation to Råhula at Ambalaììhika” (Middle Length Sayings II, no. 61) that the Buddha taught his son Råhula to train himself in skilled moral habit, in kusala síla. We read that the Buddha said: “If you, Råhula, are desirous of doing a deed with the body, you should reflect on that deed of your body thus: ‘That deed which I am desirous of doing with the body is a deed of my body that might conduce to the harm of self and that might conduce to the harm of others and that might conduce to the harm of both; this deed of body is unskilled, its yield is anguish, its result is anguish.’ If you, Råhula, reflecting thus, should find, ‘That deed which I am desirous of doing with the body is a deed of my body that might conduce to the harm of self and that might conduce to the harm of others and that might conduce to the harm of both; this deed of body is unskilled, its yield is anguish, its result is anguish’ -- a deed of body like this, Rahula, is certainly not to be done by you....” The Buddha then told Råhula that a deed of body which would not conduce to the harm of himself, of others or of both, was skilled, with a happy result, and that such a deed might be done by him. He told Råhula to reflect in the same way at the moment he was doing a deed with the body and after he had done a deed with the body. The same was said with regard to action through speech and through the mind. While we speak do we always reflect whether the citta is kusala or akusala, whether our speech leads to the harm of ourselves or of others or of both? A word is spoken so quickly, it has been spoken before we realize it. We usually speak with akusala citta. Síla is behaviour or conduct through body and speech. Síla has many aspects. Abstaining from ill deeds is included in síla. Laypeople can observe five precepts, or they can observe eight precepts, for example, on ‘Uposatha days’ (vigil or fasting days). There are ten precepts that are obligatory for all monks and samaneras (novices). Moreover, the síla the monks have to observe are the rules of Påìimokkha of the Diciplinary Code, consisting of twohundred- and- twentyseven rules. Not only abstaining from ill deeds is included in síla, but also skilled behaviour through body and speech, such as paying respect and helping others. -------- Nina. #126602 From: sprlrt@... Date: Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:27 pm Subject: Re: Dhs sprlrt Dear Lukas, Pt, Jon, Concepts, unlike paramattha dhammas like moha or pa~n~naa, don't accumulate, and are forgotten after death, I think that's why Khun Sujin keeps remind us about the present visible object, never the same for two split seconds, without getting lost into the concepts of people and things that follow, this is the function of pa~n~naa, to know the truth little by little, with no expectations for oneself, for what appears or doesn't appear, but to understand, by conditions, whatever arises, by conditions, beginning with visible object, just as a reality, as an element, as just the conditioned truth, not a person or something lasting for longer than a split second. Alberto PS Pt, I've looked up the last chapter of Dhs, which lists one more time the paramattha dhammas referred to by the matika, I think that pahaatabbahetukaa dhammaa means dhammas (citta+cetasikas) to be abandoned (by sotapatti magga) which are conditioned by hetu paccaya (moha, the only hetu dhamma arising in the vicikicchaasahagato cittuppaado is not conditioned by hetu paccaya, i.e. it cannot condition itself by hetu paccaya, so it is not included in the first part of this triplet). 1405. katame dhammaa dassanena pahaatabbaa? cattaaro di.t.thigatasampayuttacittuppaadaa, vicikicchaasahagato cittuppaado -- ime dhammaa dassanena pahaatabbaa. ... 1408. katame dhammaa dassanena pahaatabbahetukaa? cattaaro di.t.thigatasampayuttacittuppaadaa, vicikicchaasahagato cittuppaado, etthuppanna.m moha.m .thapetvaa -- ime dhammaa dassanena pahaatabbahetukaa. > > pt: I guess I don't understand what is the meaning of "Dhammaa with > > root > causes", as opposed to just "Dhammaa". > > > > For further comparison, the treatment in Khine of the first lines > > of the two > triplets: > > > > 1006. What are the dhammaa which are eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga? > > The three fetters, viz., the wrong view concerning the five khandas, > Uncertainty, and the wrong view of the practice of morality are > eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga. > > > > 1013. What are the dhammaa with root causes that are eliminated by > > Sotaapatti > Magga? > > The three fetters, viz., the wrong view concerning the five khandas, > Uncertainty, and the wrong view of the practice of morality are the > dhammaa with root causes that are eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga. > > L: There are hetu dhammas, and na hetu dhammas. Different realities > to be understood, right now. ditthi, wrong view is na hetu, not a > root but moha, ignnorance is hetu dhamma, a root that conditions all > coming cittas and cetasikas by way of root condition. Maybe this will > be helpful. As alberto said on Dhs, just slowly one world to be > considered slowly, not a half of matika at once. This was his advice, > when we together discussed matika to Dhs at his room. By the way a > lot of fun in between. Acharn Sujin also mentioned once. > > Do you want to understand all words from a one book, everything > perfectly? Impposible, only Buddha could. #126603 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:13 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhs jonoabb Hi Nina, pt and All --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear pt and all, > Op 20-sep-2012, om 4:03 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > > > pt: I guess I don't understand what is the meaning of "Dhammaa with > > root causes", as opposed to just "Dhammaa". > ------ > N: Just a guess, it seems to me that hetu refers to pahaatabba, > rather than to the dhammas. > It could be an emphasis that pahaatabba is very strong, really > eliminated with root and all. > The term pahaatabbahetukaa is written together as one word. An idea? > Text: 9. (ka) dassanena pahaatabbahetukaa dhammaa. > ============== J: Definitely an idea. Could you say something more about 'pahaatabba' for we Pali ignoramuses? Thanks. Jon #126604 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhs sarahprocter... Hi Jon & all, > From: jonoabb >J: Could you say something more about 'pahaatabba' for we Pali ignoramuses? Thanks. ... S: From an old post by DC Wijeratna: "pahaatabbam: It comes from the verb 'pajahati' which means: gives up; renounces; forsakes; abandons. So pahatabba.m is: what should be removed, given up etc. bhaavetabba.m: it comes from the word 'bhaaveti' which means: increases; cultivates; develops. So bhaavetabba.m means what should be developed or cultivated or even grown." ..... S: Pahaana Sutta (Abandonment), SN 35:23 "Bhikkhus, I will teach you the Dhamma for abandoning all (sabbappahaanaaya). Listen to that.... "And What, bhikkhus, is the Dhamma for abandoning all (sabbappahaanaaya dhammo)? The eye is to be abandoned, forms...eye-consciousness...eye-contact and whatever feeling....ear.......mind....mental phenomena...mind-consciousness...mind-contact....feeling.....whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant- that too is to be abandoned. "This, bhikkhus, is the Dhamma for abandoning all." **** S: In the next suttas, we read about how "the Dhamma for abandoning all" is "through direct knowledge and full understanding." This is the full understanding of "the eye....forms....eye-consciousness...eye-contact....and whatever feeling.....without developing dispassion towards it and abandoning it one is incapable of destroying suffering." Metta Sarah ===== #126605 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhs nilovg Dear Jon, Op 20-sep-2012, om 11:13 heeft jonoabb het volgende geschreven: > Definitely an idea. Could you say something more about 'pahaatabba' > for we Pali ignoramuses? Thanks. ---- N: the abba ending: what must, can should be abndoned. Nina. #126606 From: Kc Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhs ashkenn2k Dear pt There is no difference between 8 and 9 in that context. On their own, wrong views and doubts are not roots, they are just Dhamma. Dhamma with root causes is just emphasis that wrong view and doubt cannot arise without the roots of craving and ignorance. The passage did not say they are roots, they are saying root causes. Or in other words, they arises - causes by roots. KC On 20 Sep, 2012, at 10:03 AM, "ptaus1" wrote: > > > English - Khine: > > 8. Dassana Tika: > (i) Dhammaa eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga (1006, 1405) > (ii) Dhammaa eliminated by the three higher Maggas (1011, 1406) > (iii) Dhammaa not eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga nor by the three higher Maggas (1012, 1407) > > 9. Dassana Hetuka Tika: > (i) Dhammaa with root causes eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga (1013, 1408) > (ii) Dhammaa with root causes eliminated by the three higher Maggas (1018, 1409) > (iii) Dhammaa which have no other root causes to associate with and which are eliminated neither by Sotaapatti Magga nor by the three higher Maggas (1019, 1410) > > pt: I guess I don't understand what is the meaning of "Dhammaa with root causes", as opposed to just "Dhammaa". > > For further comparison, the treatment in Khine of the first lines of the two triplets: > > 1006. What are the dhammaa which are eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga? > The three fetters, viz., the wrong view concerning the five khandas, Uncertainty, and the wrong view of the practice of morality are eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga. > > 1013. What are the dhammaa with root causes that are eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga? > The three fetters, viz., the wrong view concerning the five khandas, Uncertainty, and the wrong view of the practice of morality are the dhammaa with root causes that are eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga. > > Best wishes > pt > > #126607 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:27 am Subject: Re: The last words for Poland, part 1 glenjohnann Hi Lukas, Sarah, Wojtek, Nina and All Thank you Lukas for sharing with us your last conversation with Achan. It expresses so well the essence of much of our discussions. These words have been running though my mind a lot since we all parted on Monday - "just visible object, no one there". Lukas, I so appreciated all of your questions. They all made the discussions so valuable and memorable. We were very blessed by Achan's unending enthusiasm and very explicit reminders about the present moment and the essence of "practice" now. Wojtek, same for your interest and questions. I admired your patience and candour while in the "hot seat". Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Lukas, > > An excellent report and great departing words. Many thanks for sharing them. > > When we had to board our flight, Jon ran back to try and show his appreciation and respect to her and he could just see her (from the other side of customs and security) still speaking to you and your showing respect as she parted for customs. > > Her example of kindness and generosity in sharing the Dhamma even at this time was incredible. > > Visible object now! No one there at all! > > Metta > > Sarah > > >________________________________ > > From: Lukas > > >I stayed with Than Acharn too the end at the airport before she left. She give the last Dhamma talk. We were standing at the airport, lurking in front of us. She told: "Visible object. Never forget visible objects". That was her last words for Poland. "Never mind the words or books this is only introduction for those who really want to develop right understanding and never mind that is not enough understanding now, that there is so much ignorance or whatever. This doesn't matter at all. This moment is exactly as it is. This all are just dhammas.", "Never forget visible objects, right now. Only visible objects, really no one there." > #126608 From: "azita" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:07 am Subject: Re: The last words for Poland, part 1 gazita2002 Hallo Lukas, thank you for sharing these very precious words, so often we forget that this is the reality of 'our' lives. If for a very brief moment we remember this then our worries and concerns disappear, but arise again bec that is the nature of anatta, dukkha, anicca - no me, not mine and certainly very unsatisfactory. may you be well and happy azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lukas wrote: > > Dear Nina, Phil and all > > I stayed with Than Acharn too the end at the airport before she left. She give the last Dhamma talk. We were standing at the airport, lurking in front of us. She told: "Visible object. Never forget visible objects". That was her last words for Poland. "Never mind the words or books this is only introduction for those who really want to develop right understanding and never mind that is not enough understanding now, that there is so much ignorance or whatever. This doesn't matter at all. This moment is exactly as it is. This all are just dhammas.", "Never forget visible objects, right now. Only visible objects, really no one there." > > Best wishes > Lukas > > > #126609 From: han tun Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:08 am Subject: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (6) hantun1 Dear Friends, MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi) (THE ATTAINMENT OF CESSATION) [15] 464. "Katha.m panaayye, sa~n~naavedayitanirodhasamaapatti hotii"ti? "Na kho, aavuso visaakha, sa~n~naavedayitanirodha.m samaapajjantassa bhikkhuno eva.m hoti 'aha.m sa~n~naavedayitanirodha.m samaapajjissa'nti vaa, 'aha.m sa~n~naavedayitanirodha.m samaapajjaamii'ti vaa, 'aha.m sa~n~naavedayitanirodha.m samaapanno'ti vaa. Atha khvaassa pubbeva tathaa citta.m bhaavita.m hoti ya.m ta.m tathattaaya upanetii"ti. [15] 16. "Lady, how does the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling come to be?" "Friend Visaakha, when a bhikkhu is attaining the cessation of perception and feeling, it does not occur to him: 'I shall attain (samaapajjissa'nti) the cessation of perception and feeling,' or 'I am attaining (samaapajjaamii'ti) the cessation of perception and feeling,' or 'I have attained (samaapanno'ti) the cessation of perception and feelin'; but rather his mind has previously (pubbeva) been developed in such a way that it leads him to that state." [Note 467] [Note 467] Cessation can be attained only by a non-returner or an arahant with mastery over the eight jhaanic attainments. The meditator enters each attainment in turn, emerges from it, and contemplates it with insight as impermanent, suffering and not self. After completing this procedure with the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, and attending to certain preliminaries, the meditator determines to be without mind for a particular length of time. His determination, backed by his previous accomplishments, and preparations, leads him into the attainment of cessation. See Vsm XXIII, 32-43. --------------------- [16] "Sa~n~naavedayitanirodha.m samaapajjantassa panaayye, bhikkhuno katame dhammaa pa.thama.m nirujjhanti yadi vaa kaayasa"nkhaaro, yadi vaa vaciisa"nkhaaro, yadi vaa cittasa"nkhaaro"ti? "Sa~n~naavedayitanirodha.m samaapajjantassa kho, aavuso visaakha, bhikkhuno pa.thama.m nirujjhati vaciisa"nkhaaro, tato kaayasa"nkhaaro, tato cittasa"nkhaaro"ti. [16] 17. "Lady, when a bhikkhu is attaining the cessation of perception and feeling, which states cease first in him: the bodily formation, the verbal formation, or the mental formation?" "Friend Visaakha, when a bhikkhu is attaining the cessation of perception and feeling, first the verbal formation ceases, then the bodily formation, then the mental formation." [Note 468] [Note 468] Applied and sustained thought cease first in the second jhaana; in-and-out breathing cease next in the fourth jhaana; and perception and feeling cease last in the attainment of cessation itself. -------------------- [17] "Katha.m panaayye, sa~n~naavedayitanirodhasamaapattiyaa vu.t.thaana.m hotii"ti? "Na kho, aavuso visaakha, sa~n~naavedayitanirodhasamaapattiyaa vu.t.thahantassa bhikkhuno eva.m hoti 'aha.m sa~n~naavedayitanirodhasamaapattiyaa vu.t.thahissa'nti vaa, 'aha.m sa~n~naavedayitanirodhasamaapattiyaa vu.t.thahaamii'ti vaa, 'aha.m sa~n~naavedayitanirodhasamaapattiyaa vu.t.thito'ti vaa. Atha khvaassa pubbeva tathaa citta.m bhaavita.m hoti ya.m ta.m tathattaaya upanetii"ti. [17] 18. "Lady, how does emergence from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling come to be?" "Friend Visaakha, when a bhikkhu is emerging from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling, it does not occur to him: 'I shall emerge (vu.t.thahissa'nti) from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling,' or 'I am emerging (vu.t.thahaamii'ti) from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling,' or 'I have emerged (vu.t.thito'ti) from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling'; but rather his mind has previously (pubbeva) been developed in such a way that it leads him to that state." [Note 469] [Note 469] When the time decided upon by the determination for the attainment has lapsed, by reason of that prior determination the meditator spontaneously emerges from the attainment of cessation and the mind-process resumes. [Han: When the meditator enters Nirodha-samaapatti, he does not have such thoughts as: 'I shall attain Nirodha-samaapatti,' etc.; and when he emerges from the Nirodha-samaapatti, he does not have such thoughts as: 'I have emerged from Nirodha-samaapatti,' etc. Why? It is understandable that no thoughts can occur during Nirodha-samaapatti. But what about *just before* and *just after* the Nirodha-samaapatti? Although it is not possible to have any thoughts during Nirodha-samaapatti, can he not have the thought: 'I shall attain Nirodha-samaapatti' just before Nirodha-samaapatti? Or, can he not have the thought: 'I have emerged from Nirodha-samaapatti' just after Nirodha-samaapatti? It will need a detailed explanation which I will do referring to Visuddhimagga. ----- (a) When the meditator enters the Nirodha-samaapatti: 873.Katha~ncassaa samaapajjana.m hotiiti? Samathavipassanaavasena ussakkitvaa katapubbakiccassa nevasa~n~naanaasa~n~naayatana.m nirodhayato, evamassa samaapajjana.m hoti. Yo hi samathavaseneva ussakkati, so nevasa~n~naanaasa~n~naayatanasamaapatti.m patvaa ti.t.thati. Yo pana vipassanaavaseneva ussakkati, so phalasamaapatti.m patvaa ti.t.thati. Yo pana ubhayavaseneva ussakkitvaa pubbakicca.m katvaa nevasa~n~naanaasa~n~naayatana.m nirodheti, so ta.m samaapajjatiiti ayamettha sa"nkhepo. Vism XXIII, 31. (vi) How does its attainment come about? It comes about in one who performs the preparatory tasks by striving with serenity and insight and causes the cessation of [consciousness belonging to] the base consisting of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. One who strives with serenity alone reaches the base consisting of neither-perception-nor- non-perception and remains there, while one who strives with insight alone reaches the attainment of fruition and remains there. But it is one who strives with both, and after performing the preparatory tasks, causes the cessation of [consciousness belonging to] the base consisting of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, who attains it. This is in brief. ----- (b) When the meditator emerges from the Nirodha-samaapatti: 881.Katha.m vu.t.thaananti anaagaamissa anaagaamiphaluppattiyaa, arahato arahattaphaluppattiyaati eva.m dvedhaa vu.t.thaana.m hoti. Vism XXIII, 49. (viii) How does the emergence from it come about? The emergence comes about in two ways thus: by means of the fruition of non-return (Anaagaami-phala-samaapatti) in the case of the non-returner, or by means of the fruition of Arahantship (Arahatta-phala-samaapatti) in the case of the Arahant. ----- Han: From the above, it is learnt that the meditator who strives with both samatha and vipassanaa, after performing the preparatory tasks (pubba-kicca), causes the cessation of (consciousness belonging to) the base consisting of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, and that cessation itself leads directly to the attainment of the Nirodha-samaapatti. [In A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, on pge 178: "After reaching the base of nothingness and emerging from it, the meditator performs certain preparatory tasks, and then resolves to enter the attainment. Thereupon two cittas of the fourth aruupa-jhaana arise and cease, after which the stream of consciousness is cut off."] So there is no time or condition to have any other thoughts just before entering Nirodha-samaapatti. When the meditator emerges from Nirodha-samaapatti, he enters into phala-samaapatti. When a meditator is in phala-samaapatti, taking the Nibbaana as its object, there will be no condition to have any other thoughts. That is why when the meditator enters Nirodha-samaapatti, he does not have such thoughts as: 'I shall attain Nirodha-samaapatti,' etc.; and when he emerges from Nirodha-samaapatti, he does not have such thoughts as: 'I have emerged from Nirodha-samaapatti,' etc. Here, the performance of the preparatory tasks, with the four determinations, is the "key." Once a meditator has performed the preparatory tasks (pubba-kicca.m katvaa) the entering into and emerging from Nirodha-samaapatti will follow automatically in accordance with the determinations made. No other thoughts arise as far as Nirodha-samaapatti is concerned.] -------------------- [18] "Sa~n~naavedayitanirodhasamaapattiyaa vu.t.thahantassa panaayye, bhikkhuno katame dhammaa pa.thama.m uppajjanti yadi vaa kaayasa"nkhaaro, yadi vaa vaciisa"nkhaaro, yadi vaa cittasa"nkhaaro"ti? "Sa~n~naavedayitanirodhasamaapattiyaa vu.t.thahantassa kho, aavuso visaakha, bhikkhuno pa.thama.m uppajjati cittasa"nkhaaro, tato kaayasa"nkhaaro, tato vaciisa"nkhaaro"ti. [18] 19. "Lady, when a bhikkhu is emerging from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling, which states arise first in him: the bodily formation, the verbal formation, or the mental formation?" "Friend Visaakha, when a bhikkhu is emerging from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling, first the mental formation arises, then the bodily formation, then the verbal formation." [Note 470] [Note 470] MA: When one emerges from cessation, the consciousness of fruition attainment arises first, and the perception and feeling associated with that are the mental formation that arises first. Then, with the subsequent descent into the life continuum, the bodily formation, i.e., breathing, recommences. And subsequently, when the meditator resumes his ordinary activity, the verbal formation arises.] -------------------- [19] "Sa~n~naavedayitanirodhasamaapattiyaa vu.t.thita.m panaayye, bhikkhu.m kati phassaa phusantii"ti? "Sa~n~naavedayitanirodhasamaapattiyaa vu.t.thita.m kho, aavuso visaakha, bhikkhu.m tayo phassaa phusanti su~n~nato phasso, animitto phasso, appa.nihito phasso"ti. [19] 20. "Lady, when a bhikkhu has emerged from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling, how many kinds of contact touch him?" "Friend Visaakha, when a bhikkhu has emerged from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling, three kinds of contact touch him: voidness contact (su~n~nato phasso), signless contact (animitto phasso), desireless contact (appa.nihito phasso)." [Note 471] [Note 471] The first state of consciousness to arise on emerging from cessation is that of fruition attainment, which is called voidness, the signless, and the desireless because of its own inherent quality and because of its object, Nibbaana. Here these three names for fruition are assigned to the contact associated with fruition. [Han: Here, we may recall Vism XXIII, 49. (viii) How does the emergence from it come about? The emergence comes about in two ways thus: by means of the fruition of non-return (Anaagaami-phala-samaapatti) in the case of the non-returner, or by means of the fruition of Arahantship (Arahatta-phala-samaapatti) in the case of the Arahant.] -------------------- [20] "Sa~n~naavedayitanirodhasamaapattiyaa vu.t.thitassa panaayye, bhikkhuno ki.mninna.m citta.m hoti ki.mpo.na.m ki.mpabbhaara"nti? "Sa~n~naavedayitanirodhasamaapattiyaa vu.t.thitassa kho, aavuso visaakha, bhikkhuno vivekaninna.m citta.m hoti, vivekapo.na.m vivekapabbhaara"nti. [20] 21. "Lady, when a bhikkhu has emerged from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling, to what does his mind incline, to what does it lean, to what does it tend?" "Friend Visakha, when a bhikkhu has emerged from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling, his mind inclines to seclusion (viveka-ninna.m), leans to seclusion (viveka-po.na.m), tends to seclusion (viveka-po.na.m)." [Note 472] [Note 472] M.T: Nibbaana, the object of the fruition consciousness that arises on emerging from cessation, is called seclusion (viveka) because it is secluded from all conditioned things. [Han: There are three vivekas: kaaya-viveka (bodily detachment, i.e., abiding in solitude free from alluring sensuous objects); citta-viveka (mental detachment, i.e., the inner detachment from sensuous things); and upadhi-viveka (detachment from the substrata of existence, i.e., Nibbaana). Here, Note 472 says that Nibbaana is called seclusion (viveka), and so it must be upadhi-viveka, that the text is referring to.] [Han: What is the difference between one who has attained cessation and one who is dead? This is explained in Vism XXIII, 51 as follows: In both the cases, his bodily formations have ceased and are quite still, his verbal formations have ceased and are quite still, his mental formations have ceased and are quite still. But (1) the one who is dead, his life is exhausted (aayu parikkhii.no), his heat has subsided (usmaa vuupasantaa), and his faculties are broken up (indriyaani paribhinnaani); whereas (2) the one who attains cessation, his life is unexhausted (aayu aparikkhii.no), his heat has not subsided (usmaa avuupasantaa), his faculties are quite whole (indriyaani aparibhinnaani).] To be continued. with metta, Han #126610 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:40 am Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (17) (bhavanga-citta) glenjohnann Way to go, Phil. conventional language is what we have to work with - and as with suttas etc., it has to be heard / read with understanding of the Dhamma. Maybe "stream of cittas" works in this case too. Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Dear Group > > Part 2 of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket continued: > > "The citta that does not experience an object through any of the six dooors is the bhavanga-citta. This citta keeps one alive; it maintains the continuity in one's life as this particular person. Bhavanga-cittas arise and fall away until another type of citta arises that experiences an object through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the bodysense or the mind door. The bhavanga-cittas arise in between the processes of cittas that experience objects through the six doors and this goes on continuously until the end of one's lifespan as a particular person." > > (end of passage) > > Ph: This is probably cause for delerious thinking, but I wonder about this "one's life as a particular person" when we know that there are only dhammas that arise and fall away, not persons. > > No, I will not think about it. "Visible object!" Seeing now, hearing now. > > Phil > #126611 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:18 pm Subject: Re: The last words for Poland, part 1 jagkrit2012 Hi Ann, Lukas, Sarah, Wojtek, Jon, Gabi, Nina and All Ann: Thank you Lukas for sharing with us your last conversation with Achan. It expresses so well the essence of much of our discussions. These words have been running though my mind a lot since we all parted on Monday - "just visible object, no one there". Ann: Lukas, I so appreciated all of your questions. They all made the discussions so valuable and memorable. We were very blessed by Achan's unending enthusiasm and very explicit reminders about the present moment and the essence of "practice" now. Wojtek, same for your interest and questions. I admired your patience and candour while in the "hot seat". ------------------------------- JJ: I'm also thankful for Lukas's posting the last words of T.A. Sujin. Even they were the last words in Poland but they will stay for long in our mind (Sanna) for kusala vitaka. And Ann is right. T.A. Sujin spent one week remind us how important of "present moment" is. It is countless on her words mentioning the awareness of present moment through seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and thinking. T.A. Sujin, once, said that dhamma friends who live outside Thailand can hardly have frequent discussion, therefore, this discussion in Poland should be worth it with real dhamma for right understanding, not only wording or stories. Thank you again for everybody in Ozlstyn, Poland to share the precious dhamma discussion moment. Especialy, Sarah who triedlessly arranged very nice forum for discussions and Jon who was very busy with all discussion records for everyone to here in DSG storage. Jon, you will have big muscle on your arms by now after swinging back and forth the microphone handle to have nice sound. Anumodhana Jagkrit #126612 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:48 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (17) (bhavanga-citta) jagkrit2012 Hi Phil and all Ph: "one's life as a particular person" when we know that there are only dhammas that arise and fall away, not persons. > > No, I will not think about it. "Visible object!" Seeing now, hearing now. ---------------------------------------- JJ: Can one's life means particular 5 Khandas. Particular rupa, sanna, vetana, sungkhara and vinnana not those. seeing now is the particular Citta and Cetasika now not another and gone. Jagkrit #126613 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:41 pm Subject: Collateral Damages jagkrit2012 Dear all and dsg in Poland During the dicussion in Ozlstyn, we discussed about going to the monastery to behave with good sila, learn some dhamma or meditating. And the debate went wide to "I am annatta" where everything is conditioned. Why one should worry of anything? Just wait and it'll happen. There is, however, one question in Thai dhamma discussion group (tddg) poping up and asking: " I live in a codo in Bangkok surrounding with 7-11 shop, Big C Superstore, markets, all kind of service shops etc. The sound is so loud hurting my ears sometimes. I can not sleep. And people around here sleepless. I'm always distracted. I am 30 which is half of my life. I am an elementary school of dhamma practicer. Sometimes, I listen dhamma in the redio but most of the time I jerk around. Does this mean that we have to be over 40 to get some kind of hormone calming us down to dhamma practice like we can see people in general (certainly not in dsg !!). And if it's better for people who stay in out of city or monastery where less distraction?" Any comment? way out? or suggestion? Of course with out any collateral damages ! Jagkrit #126614 From: "philip" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:09 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (17) (bhavanga-citta) philofillet Hi Ann, Jagkrit, all Being may or may not have their own existence according to Dhamma, but that doesn't concern me. Because whether the Buddha said there are beings, or not, there can only be experience of dhammas (which obviously aren't beings) and concepts formed on the basis of those dhammas. I'm sure there can be no one here who would disagree that we can't see "people", we see visible object, and the concept of the person is formed. Whether that person is a being or not is irrelevant, the point is that we can only experience dhammas, and form concepts of them. THere is no way to directly experience a being, only dhammas. And through the experience of dhammas, with right understanding, ever so gradually, detachment can develop. And through detachment, liberation. So I like "only visible object, no Nina there" (in line with our direct experience) much better than "there is no Nina" (to use the person referred to in one of my favourite talks)" which brings up all sorts of big questions about existence or non-existence that just feed delerious thinking and billions and billions of miles of internet debate threads. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "glenjohnann" wrote: > > > Way to go, Phil. > conventional language is what we have to work with - and as with suttas etc., it has to be heard / read with understanding of the Dhamma. Maybe "stream of cittas" works in this case too. > > Ann > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > > > Dear Group > > > > Part 2 of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket continued: > > > > "The citta that does not experience an object through any of the six dooors is the bhavanga-citta. This citta keeps one alive; it maintains the continuity in one's life as this particular person. Bhavanga-cittas arise and fall away until another type of citta arises that experiences an object through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the bodysense or the mind door. The bhavanga-cittas arise in between the processes of cittas that experience objects through the six doors and this goes on continuously until the end of one's lifespan as a particular person." > > > > (end of passage) > > > > Ph: This is probably cause for delerious thinking, but I wonder about this "one's life as a particular person" when we know that there are only dhammas that arise and fall away, not persons. > > > > No, I will not think about it. "Visible object!" Seeing now, hearing now. > > > > Phil > > > #126615 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Collateral Damages sarahprocter... Dear Jagkrit & all, Great question from Bangkok. Here's an answer, perhaps others will add other answers: **** Dear Thai friend, I sympathise and understand what you're saying. I live in busy, noisy Hong Kong and still "jerk around" even though I'm twice your age! However, we are very fortunate in that we have the opportunity to listen to and understand the Buddha's Teachings about the realities which make up our our ordinary lives and problems. Let's consider: In reality, is there really a busy Bangkok or Hong Kong? Are there really sleepless and distracted people? Are there really cities and monasteries? What is seen at this very moment? What is heard now? Are people and places and distractions really existing or are they figments of the imagination now? Is there anyone to change what has been conditioned to arise now, such as this moment of seeing which just sees visible object or this moment of thinking which reflects upon "me jerking around in Bangkok"? Would you agree that there is just this moment now, this moment of seeing what is visible, followed by all sorts of long stories about people and places? Surely when there is an idea that if we were in another place, life would be different, there is no understanding that realities - such as seeing, visible object, hearing and sound - are conditioned to arise, beyond anyone's control. Even the thinking about "a monastery" or "a peaceful environment" is conditioned, arises and falls away instantly. I should stress here that the thinking itself is real, it arises and falls away, but "the monastery" is just an idea that is thought about. It doesn't arise and fall away because it's not real in an ultimate sense. It is a conventional reality only. Food, cup, computer and people are also conventional realities, but not the ultimate realities, the paramattha dhammas, which can be directly understood now. At a moment of understanding of the absolute reality now, whether it be the seeing, the visible object, the thinking or any other dhamma, there is true peace, true quiet - the calm that arises with the kusala citta, the wholesome state of mind. This is how the Buddha taught us to truly live alone with the reality, no matter where or when. Perhaps you are familiar with the Migajala Sutta, SN 35:63, which has always been a favourite of mine because it emphasises how living alone, living at peace, depends on the citta, the mind, and not on the physical environment because ignorance and attachment are the real disturbances in life: Here is an extract from it (translated into English by Bhikkhu Bodhi): "Migajala, even though a bhikkhu who dwells thus resorts to forests and groves, to remote lodgings where there are few sounds and little noise, desolate, hidden from people, appropriate for seclusion, he is still called one dwelling with a partner. For what reason? Because craving is his partner, and he has not abandoned it; therefore he is called one dwelling with a partner." ..... "There are, Migajala, forms cognizable by the eye that are desirable, lovely, agreeable, pleasing, sensually enticing, tantalizing. If a bhikkhu does not seek delight in them, does not welcome them, and does not remain holding to them, delight ceases. When there is no delight, there is no infatuation. When there is no infatuation, there is no bondage. Released from the fetter of delight, Migajala, a bhikkhu is called a lone dweller. (same for sounds, odours, tastes, tacticle objects, mental phenomena) "Migajala, even though a bhikkhu who dwells thus lives in the vicinity of a village, associating with bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, with male and female lay followers, with kings and royal ministers, with sectarian teachers and their disciples, he is still called a lone dweller. For what reason? Because craving is his partner and he has abandoned it; therefore he is called a lone dweller." So, actually, wherever we live, there has to be the development of understanding of the reality experienced now so that gradually there will be more detachment, more equanimity towards what is seen and heard and more understanding that whatever reality arises now is anatta. That means it is just a conditioned dhamma that arises and falls away. It does not belong to you or me and it's not a place, thing or person of any kind. I'd be glad to hear your further comments and questions which also help us to reflect more on the Buddha's Teachings as applied to our ordinary lives. These Teachings are very deep and not easy to understand at all. Metta Sarah >There is, however, one question in Thai dhamma discussion group (tddg) poping up and asking: > >" I live in a codo in Bangkok surrounding with 7-11 shop, Big C Superstore, markets, all kind of service shops etc. The sound is so loud hurting my ears sometimes. I can not sleep. And people around here sleepless. I'm always distracted. I am 30 which is half of my life. I am an elementary school of dhamma practicer. Sometimes, I listen dhamma in the redio but most of the time I jerk around. Does this mean that we have to be over 40 to get some kind of hormone calming us down to dhamma practice like we can see people in general (certainly not in dsg !!). And if it's better for people who stay in out of city or monastery where less distraction?" #126616 From: "philofillet" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:10 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (17) (bhavanga-citta) philofillet Hi again >>Whether that person is a being or not is irrelevant, the point is that we can only experience dhammas, and form concepts of them. THere is no way to directly experience a being, only dhammas. And through the experience of dhammas, with right understanding, ever so gradually, detachment can develop. And through detachment, liberation. I add -- and caring for people with detachment, i.e, with kusala. The point of Dhamma is certainly not accumulating attachment. Detachment has to come into it, the sooner the better. I think everyone knows this already, but kusala ***must*** be rooted in alobha. There is no kusala rooted in lobha. So if we are caring for people with attachment, it is not kusala and does not condition kusala. Only moments with wise detachment - very rare, obviously - can be kusala. Let's remember, the Buddha almost refrained from teaching because he knew it would go against the way of the world. The way of the world is lobha. There can only be rare moments of kusala, but they accumulate, and kusala is developed if there are conditions for patience, a rare commodity in this day and age. phil #126617 From: "philip" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:30 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (17) (bhavanga-citta) philofillet Hi again > So if we are caring for people with attachment, it is not kusala and does not condition kusala. Well, I don't know about this. I'm just talking off the top of my head. Caring for someone with attachment (akusala) could create conditions for kusala moments, I guess. I don't know. The Buddha, for example, praised caring for our parents. Surely he wasn't saying that there should always be detachment. phil #126618 From: "szmicio" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:38 pm Subject: The last words for Poland, part 2 szmicio Dear friends, Continuation: L: I appreciate so much acharn, that during this 7 days, we didnt talk on satipatthana at all. This is so helpful. Instead we learned about realities now, different characteristic to appear, that are not self at all. A.S: Yes, because for satipatthana there must be so keen panna. And it must grow first. The satipatthana will come when the panna will become keen enought, for satipathana to arise, and not be forgetful of each reality, that appears to right understanding. Without this satipattha never arise. If someone thinks one can make or try satipatthana to arise, and even dont know what sati is, sati will never arise. So that's why we live our life. Like that, see, like this is now. There is only ignorance, but remember never mind it to be different. Just know this is exactly like now, while we standing here. There is ignorance that ignores realities. But is there any hardness right now? L: Yes, it is. A.S: See, but the panna is not strong enought to now it right now. That's why we learn about realities right now. Visible object is there and hardness is there. There are exactly like now. And when satipatthana arise they will be exactly the same. No difference. But the sati must arise naturaly. Never mind about words, this is not in the book. Learn what appears now, and no need to name it. Books are only an introduction for those who wants to develop more understanding. She than said: Appreciate goodness. Dont do goodness. Just appreciate whenever it appears. Dont try to have it. Than you will see what goodness is, and how to have more goodness. You can see when it appears, this is so different than all kinds of akusala when they arise. She explained Triple Gems, Taking a shelter in Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. I asked that it is so hard to know Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. And people leaded by ignorance do it morning and evening, with ignmorance. A.S No, they do it, cause they cannot do anything else for that time. You can see that they do it, because this is the first thing they do after waking up. A great understanding. They have no accumulations for coffe at the morning. Best wishes Lukas #126619 From: "philip" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:48 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (17) (bhavanga-citta) philofillet Hi again all Wow, fantastic outburst of delerious thinking! Hit return button. Visible object, no one there at all. phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi again > > > So if we are caring for people with attachment, it is not kusala and does not condition kusala. > > > Well, I don't know about this. I'm just talking off the top of my head. Caring for someone with attachment (akusala) could create conditions for kusala moments, I guess. I don't know. The Buddha, for example, praised caring for our parents. Surely he wasn't saying that there should always be detachment. > > phil > #126620 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:25 pm Subject: Sri Lanka revisited, Ch 2, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, When we abstain from ill deeds we do not harm ourselves, nor others, nor both ourselves and others. When we transgress the five precepts we harm ourselves as well as others. What is the cause of transgression of the five precepts? We read in the “Discourse to Samaùamaùèikå” (Middle Length Sayings II, no. 78) that the Buddha said to Samaùamaùèikå’s son, a carpenter: “And which, carpenter, are the unskilled moral habits? Unskilled deed of body, unskilled deed of speech, evil mode of livelihood-- these, carpenter, are called unskilled moral habits. And how, carpenter, do these unskilled moral habits originate? Their origination is spoken of too. It should be answered that the origination is in the citta. Which citta? For the citta is manifold, various, diverse. That citta which has attachment, aversion, ignorance-- originating from this are unskilled moral habits....” When we neglect the precepts we are selfish and we are not considerate of other beings. So long as we have not attained enlightenment we may neglect the five precepts, there are still conditions for transgressing them. We have committed unwholesome deeds in the past and, thus, unwholesome inclinations have been accumulated. Because of our accumulations of akusala there are conditions today for the performing of unwholesome deeds. We may think that we can always observe the five precepts, but is our síla really perfect? We may suddenly find ourselves in very difficult situations which make it hard for us to observe the five precepts and then we may transgress them. We think that we generally do not lie, but do we sometimes say something that is not quite true, or do we tell a “white lie”? We think that we do not steal, but do we always return books we borrowed? Do we never evade the paying of taxes? The “Visuddhimagga” (I, 31) explains that one may neglect síla because of gain, fame, relatives, limbs or life. By these factors síla may be “limited”. We may, for example, generally not be inclined to kill insects, but because of our guests we may kill them. We may generally not be inclined to lie, but because gain or fame we may tell a lie. One’s síla is unlimited if one does not transgress it, no matter what happens. The sotåpanna, the person who has attained the first stage of enlightenment, has no more conditions for transgressing the five precepts. He sees realities as they are and he has eradicated the wrong view of self. As we have seen, lobha, dosa and moha are the causes of neglecting síla. The sotåpanna has not eradicated lobha, dosa and moha, but they do not have the intensity so as to condition the transgression of the five precepts. For him there are more conditions for loving kindness and compassion. It is sati, not self, that prevents the transgression of the five precepts. Only through the development of right understanding of whatever reality appears, also of akusala citta, the wrong view of self can be eradicated. Then there will be no more conditions for transgressing the five precepts. ------- Nina. #126621 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:01 am Subject: Re: The last words for Poland, part 2 glenjohnann Dear Lukas Thank you very much for sharing more of your last conversation with Achan. Her words are so valuable and such good reminders. She is ever generous and so skilful in her expression of the true Dhamma. I am interested in her comments about appreciating goodness, not doing goodness, but appreciating it whenever it appears; that is the way to learn about it. Seems that she is saying that if we try to "have" goodness it is like trying to have kusala, be it sati, panna or other kusala. And this is wrong understanding - very subtle - as there is no one to "have" or "do". Makes sense. We understand that when we "try" to have understanding - it is lobha that wants it. So, the same for any kusala. We go along with our lives thinking that it is good to "do good" - and that is where subtle lobha and wrong effort often come into play. We want to "be a good person". But kusala can only arise naturally when there are condition, just like understanding. She is saying that understanding of goodness can grow as there is more appreciation of it - which can only happen when there is no trying or wishing to have it. This is the way to knowing more about the difference between kusala and akusala which can condition the arising of more kusala. I appreciate you sharing this as it has been good to think about it more. Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "szmicio" wrote: > > Dear friends, > > Continuation: > > L: I appreciate so much acharn, that during this 7 days, we didnt talk on satipatthana at all. This is so helpful. Instead we learned about realities now, different characteristic to appear, that are self at all. > > A.S: Yes, because for satipatthana there must be so keen panna. And it must grow first. The satipatthana will come when the panna will become keen enought, for satipathana to arise, and not be forgetful of each reality, that appears to right understanding. Without this satipattha never arise. If someone thinks one can make or try satipatthana to arise, and even dont know what sati is, sati will never arise. So that's why we live our life. Like that, see, like this is now. There is only ignorance, but remember never mind it to be different. Just know this is exactly like now, while we standing here. There is ignorance that ignores realities. But is there any hardness right now? > > L: Yes, it is. > > A.S: See, but the panna is not strong enought to now it right now. That's why we learn about realities right now. Visible object is there and hardness is there. There are exactly like now. And when satipatthana arise they will be exactly the same. No difference. But the sati must arise naturaly. Never mind about words, this is not in the book. Learn what appears now, and no need to name it. Books are only an introduction for those who wants to develop more understanding. > > She than said: Appreciate goodness. Dont do goodness. Just appreciate whenever it appears. Dont try to have it. Than you will see what goodness is, and how to have more goodness. You can see when it appears, this is so different than all kinds of akusala when they arise. > > She explained Triple Gems, Taking a shelter in Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. > > I asked that it is so hard to know Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. And people leaded by ignorance do it morning and evening, with ignmorance. > > A.S > No, they do it, cause they cannot do anything else for that time. You can see that they do it, because this is the first thing they do after waking up. A great understanding. They have no accumulations for coffe at the morning. > > Best wishes > Lukas > #126622 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:23 am Subject: Re: The last words for Poland, part 1 glenjohnann Hello JJ, Lukas, Sarah, Woftek, Jon, Gabi, Nina and All I agree, Jagkrit, that the opportunity for those of us living outside Thailand was wonderful in every way. Seven days of lengthy discussions both in formal sessions and at meals was a unique opportunity to discuss, learn and hear unending reminders about practice now. So much appreciation for Achan's generosity and kind attention to all of our concerns and questions and her skill in speaking with us. Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" wrote: > > Hi Ann, Lukas, Sarah, Wojtek, Jon, Gabi, Nina and All > > Ann: Thank you Lukas for sharing with us your last conversation with Achan. It expresses so well the essence of much of our discussions. These words have been running though my mind a lot since we all parted on Monday - "just visible object, no one there". > > Ann: Lukas, I so appreciated all of your questions. They all made the discussions so valuable and memorable. We were very blessed by Achan's unending enthusiasm and very explicit reminders about the present moment and the essence of "practice" now. Wojtek, same for your interest and questions. I admired your patience and candour while in the "hot seat". > ------------------------------- > > JJ: I'm also thankful for Lukas's posting the last words of T.A. Sujin. Even they were the last words in Poland but they will stay for long in our mind (Sanna) for kusala vitaka. > > And Ann is right. T.A. Sujin spent one week remind us how important of "present moment" is. It is countless on her words mentioning the awareness of present moment through seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and thinking. > > T.A. Sujin, once, said that dhamma friends who live outside Thailand can hardly have frequent discussion, therefore, this discussion in Poland should be worth it with real dhamma for right understanding, not only wording or stories. > > Thank you again for everybody in Ozlstyn, Poland to share the precious dhamma discussion moment. Especialy, Sarah who triedlessly arranged very nice forum for discussions and Jon who was very busy with all discussion records for everyone to here in DSG storage. Jon, you will have big muscle on your arms by now after swinging back and forth the microphone handle to have nice sound. > > Anumodhana > > Jagkrit > #126623 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:59 am Subject: Re: The last words for Poland, part 2 szmicio Dear Ann, I agree. There is a Sutta on Metta, non-angriness: Khp 9. Best wishes Lukas > Seems that she is saying that if we try to "have" goodness it is like trying to have kusala, be it sati, panna or other kusala. And this is wrong understanding - very subtle - as there is no one to "have" or "do". Makes sense. We understand that when we "try" to have understanding - it is lobha that wants it. So, the same for any kusala. We go along with our lives thinking that it is good to "do good" - and that is where subtle lobha and wrong effort often come into play. We want to "be a good person". But kusala can only arise naturally when there are condition, just like understanding. She is saying that understanding of goodness can grow as there is more appreciation of it - which can only happen when there is no trying or wishing to have it. This is the way to knowing more about the difference between kusala and akusala which can condition the arising of more kusala. #126624 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The last words for Poland, part 2 sarahprocter... Dear Ann & Lukas, Glad to read your comments > From: glenjohnann >Seems that she is saying that if we try to "have" goodness it is like trying to have kusala, be it sati, panna or other kusala. And this is wrong understanding - very subtle - as there is no one to "have" or "do". Makes sense. We understand that when we "try" to have understanding - it is lobha that wants it. So, the same for any kusala. ... S: Yes, an important point. If there's any trying to be a good person, wanting to have metta, panna or anything else....it's all wrong again, all clinging to self once more. As is always stressed, understanding can only be with detachment to what is conditioned now, and that means understanding all kinds of dhammas for what they are when they appear, including seeing, visible object, 'goodness', lobha or whatever else. If 'goodness' is not known it cannot develop, just as if 'lobha' is not known when it appears, the harm in it will never be seen. Understanding now - the middle path. Lukas, glad to read your series. I like the reminder about when we wake up - is there any understanding of dhamma, any respect for the triple gem or just thoughts of coffee or other worldly concerns? Whatever - another dhamma, another dhatu that can be known as anatta. Metta Sarah p.s. Lukas, remember to send me a safe address off-list to send KIng Milinda's qus to. ====== #126625 From: "szmicio" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:12 am Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (17) (bhavanga-citta) szmicio Dear Phil, > > So if we are caring for people with attachment, it is not kusala and does not condition kusala. > > > Well, I don't know about this. I'm just talking off the top of my head. Caring for someone with attachment (akusala) could create conditions for kusala moments, I guess. L: Try to catch a poisonous snake by the tail. Best wishes Lukas #126626 From: "philofillet" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:42 am Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (17) (bhavanga-citta) philofillet Hi Lukas "Try to catch a poisonous snake by the tail." Nice one! Trying to use akusala for kusala purposes is much more deadly than we think. All akusala is dangerous. Any moments of kusala within all our attachments are what are valuable. Seeing value in the attachments, even to our loved ones, is akusala. There is no value in attachment. Only in understanding, with detachment. And in such moments, rare as they are, we provide the most truly beneficial assistance to our loved ones. Understand is always best. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "szmicio" wrote: > > Dear Phil, > > > > So if we are caring for people with attachment, it is not kusala and does not condition kusala. > > > > > > Well, I don't know about this. I'm just talking off the top of my head. Caring for someone with attachment (akusala) could create conditions for kusala moments, I guess. > > L: Try to catch a poisonous snake by the tail. > > Best wishes > Lukas > #126627 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Collateral Damages jagkrit2012 Dear Sarah Very nice answering! I will refer to the one who raised this question. S: Perhaps you are familiar with the Migajala Sutta, SN 35:63, which has always been a favourite of mine because it emphasises how living alone, living at peace, depends on the citta, the mind, and not on the physical environment because ignorance and attachment are the real disturbances in life: JJ: This is perfect sutta teaching to watch out kilasa every where because it arises with inner citta not outside at all. Very nice one. Thank you and Anumodhana Sarah Jagkrit #126628 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:25 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The last words for Poland, part 2 jagkrit2012 Dear Sarah, Ann, Lukas, all Ann: > >Seems that she is saying that if we try to "have" goodness it is like trying to have kusala, be it sati, panna or other kusala. And this is wrong understanding - very subtle - as there is no one to "have" or "do". Makes sense. We understand that when we "try" to have understanding - it is lobha that wants it. So, the same for any kusala. > ... > S: Yes, an important point. If there's any trying to be a good person, wanting to have metta, panna or anything else....it's all wrong again, all clinging to self once more. ============= JJ: Is this collateral damages? When one tries to eradicate kilasa with self, one kilasa's gone but another comes. S: As is always stressed, understanding can only be with detachment to what is conditioned now, and that means understanding all kinds of dhammas for what they are when they appear, including seeing, visible object, 'goodness', lobha or whatever else. If 'goodness' is not known it cannot develop, just as if 'lobha' is not known when it appears, the harm in it will never be seen. > > Understanding now - the middle path. > ====== JJ: Understanding dhammas is the only clear cut with panna along the way. Anumodhana Jagkrit #126629 From: han tun Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:39 pm Subject: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (7) hantun1 Dear Friends, MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi) (FEELING) [21] 465. "Kati panaayye, vedanaa"ti? "Tisso kho imaa, aavuso visaakha, vedanaa: sukhaa vedanaa, dukkhaa vedanaa, adukkhamasukhaa vedanaa"ti. [21] 22. "Lady, how many kinds of feeling are there?" "Friend Visakha, there are three kinds of feeling: pleasant feeling (sukhaa vedanaa), painful feeling (dukkhaa vedanaa), and neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling (adukkhamasukhaa vedanaa)." --------------------- [22] "Katamaa panaayye, sukhaa vedanaa, katamaa dukkhaa vedanaa, katamaa adukkhamasukhaa vedanaa"ti? "Ya.m kho, aavuso visaakha, kaayika.m vaa cetasika.m vaa sukha.m saata.m vedayita.m aya.m sukhaa vedanaa. Ya.m kho, aavuso visaakha, kaayika.m vaa cetasika.m vaa dukkha.m asaata.m vedayita.m aya.m dukkhaa vedanaa. Ya.m kho, aavuso visaakha, kaayika.m vaa cetasika.m vaa neva saata.m naasaata.m vedayita.m aya.m adukkhamasukhaa vedanaa"ti. [22] 23. "But, lady, what is pleasant feeling? What is painful feeling? What is neither painful-nor-pleasant feeling?" "Friend Visakha, whatever is felt bodily or mentally as pleasant and soothing is pleasant feeling. Whatever is felt bodily or mentally as painful and hurting is painful feeling. Whatever is felt bodily or mentally as neither soothing nor hurting is neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling." --------------------- [23] "Sukhaa panaayye, vedanaa ki.msukhaa ki.mdukkhaa, dukkhaa vedanaa ki.msukhaa ki.mdukkhaa, adukkhamasukhaa vedanaa ki.msukhaa ki.mdukkhaa"ti? "Sukhaa kho, aavuso visaakha, vedanaa .thitisukhaa vipari.naamadukkhaa; dukkhaa vedanaa .thitidukkhaa vipari.naamasukhaa ; adukkhamasukhaa vedanaa ~naa.nasukhaa a~n~naa.nadukkhaa"ti. [23] 24. "Lady, what is pleasant and what is painful in regard to pleasant feeling? What is painful and what is pleasant in regard to painful feeling? What is pleasant and what is painful in regard to neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling?" "Friend Visakha, pleasant feeling is pleasant when it persists and painful when it changes (sukhaa vedanaa .thiti sukhaa, vipari.naama dukkhaa). Painful feeling is painful when it persists and pleasant when it changes (dukkhaa vedanaa .thiti dukkhaa, vipari.naama sukhaa). Neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling is pleasant when there is knowledge [of it] and painful when there is no knowledge [of it] (adukkhamasukhaa vedanaa ~naa.na sukhaa, a~n~naa.na dukkhaa)." ---------------------- To be continued. with metta, Han #126630 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:13 pm Subject: Sri Lanka revisited, Ch 2, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, During the seminar we discussed the abstaining from different kinds of wrong speech. Only abstention from lying is included in the five precepts, but we should see the benefit of abstaining from all kinds of wrong speech. Laypeople may observe five precepts, but on Uposatha Day many laypeople in Sri Lanka observe eight precepts. Refraining from eating after midday, from using cosmetics and wearing jewelry, and from lying on high and soft beds are included in the eight precepts. Acharn Sujin pointed out that laypeople who develop satipatthåna can undertake another set of eight precepts. In addition to the five precepts one can observe three precepts with regard to speech. Apart from refraining from lying which is among the five precepts, one can train oneself in refraining from slandering, harsh speech and useless, idle talk. Thus, in this set of eight precepts there are four with regard to speech. One can train oneself each day in these eight precepts. We are often forgetful and heedless with regard to our speech. It is beneficial to know more about the types of citta which motivate our speech. During the seminar we discussed different kinds of unwholesome speech. Someone remarked that it is so difficult to refrain from gossiping when people around us are doing so. In society gossip is considered a means to keep the conversation going; before we realize it we have added a little to the disagreeable things others say about someone else. When we are forgetful we give in to wrong speech. If there is more right understanding of the present moment, this will condition refraining from gossip. Instead of gossip there can be mettå and karunå. With regard to idle, useless talk, we may find it very difficult to refrain from it when we are in conversation with others. We are tempted to think that since only the arahat has eradicated conditions for this kind of talk we can wholeheartedly engage in it. We cannot be perfect, but if we realize more often whether the citta of the present moment is kusala citta or akusala citta we shall see the value of abstaining from wrong speech, even if it is more subtle such as idle, useless speech. Acharn Sujin adviced us to speak more often with mettå and karunå. Even when the conversation is about the weather or about relatives we can speak with kusala citta. Many different types of citta can think of such topics as the weather or relatives. Mettå, karunå, muditå (sympthetic joy) and upekkhå (equanimity) have to be developed in daily life, also during our ordinary conversations. When we, for example, speak about the weather that has improved we may think of the wellbeing of other people who may profit from good weather. Is the citta kusala citta or akusala citta while we are talking? The citta that motivates speech cannot be ‘neutral’, it is either kusala citta or akusala citta. Most of the time it is akusala citta. The best cure for wrong speech is right mindfulness of the nåmas and rúpas that appear through the six doors, no matter whether we are speaking or whether we are silent. When right mindfulness arises, the six doors are “guarded”, and this is a way of síla, the “virtue of restraint of the faculties” (indriya samvara síla, Visuddhimagga I, 42). When there is no mindfulness, all kinds of akusala are bound to arise on account of what is experienced through the six doors. -------- Nina. #126631 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:37 pm Subject: Death and separation. nilovg Dear friends, Death and separation. This morning I heard something that is very suitable for my situation just now. Kh Sujin spoke about detachment with relation to the vipassanaa ~naanas. After the three first vipassanaa stages, which are still tender insight, there is the first stage of principal insight , mahaa-vipassanaa: the realisation of the arising and falling away of each naama and ruupa that appear. One cannot reach this stage without awareness of realities through all the six doorways. At this stage there is more detachment and one realises that there is no self nor someone else. When we are attached to someone we cling mostly to ourself. We cling to the happy feeling that is due to the company of someone else, family and dear people. Everything is for the sake of ourselves. We should know that there is nothing that belongs to ourselves. Through pa~n~naa we can detach more from bondages. Even though this attachment is not yet eradicated, detachment can be accumulated as sa.nkhaarakkhanda, the khandha of formations. When satipa.t.thaana is developed vipassanaa ~naa.nas, stages of insight can arise, and when the first stage of principal insight arises it is vipassanaa as power, balava vipassanaa. Then there will be more detachment from self and others. In daily life we are intent on pleasure and that is the cause of dukkha. We should listen to the Dhamma so that there will be firm remembrance of the Dhamma and conditions for the development of kusala. In daily life we should not try to change anything or force ourselves to let go of the bonds we have with family and dear people. Our life is as it used to be but the citta can change. Before we had strong clinging but gradually this can decrease. When there are attachment and ignorance this conditions strong clinging. When there is evenmindedness (tatramajjhattataa) and pa~n~naa, our life is as it used to be but there will be less clinging. Lobha is the cause of dukkha. ********* Nina. #126632 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:53 pm Subject: Re: Death and separation. szmicio Dear Nina, > This morning I heard something that is very suitable for my situation > just now. Kh Sujin spoke about detachment with relation to the > vipassanaa ~naanas. After the three first vipassanaa stages, which > are still tender insight, there is the first stage of principal > insight , mahaa-vipassanaa: the realisation of the arising and > falling away of each naama and ruupa that appear. One cannot reach > this stage without awareness of realities through all the six > doorways. At this stage there is more detachment and one realises > that there is no self nor someone else. L: I think Acharn talked on vipassana ~nanas. She mentioned that first one, just knows what is nama and what is ruupa. Still doesnt know conditions. She said something like no knowing conditions before knowing nama and ruupa. Later she add that defilements are so deeply rooted that this vipassana nanas cannot eradicate defilements. The ~nanas must grow so much that later arising and falling away of each reality must grow more and more. That's how i remembered that. Best wishes Lukas #126633 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:04 pm Subject: The last words for Poland, part 3 szmicio Dear friends, Acharn than talked on sacca ~nana, whatever that means. She said intelectuall understanding very very helpful. Before any direct understanding of realities, there must be so strong sacca ~nana first. Without this kicca ~nana will never arise. People who didnt heard anything about teachings they cannot develop satipatthana. That's why we develop more firm understanding, that is sacca ~nana. She said knowing just words, is like calling someone form distance. That's why we learn more and more on realities, right now. Sacca ~nana. I asked, if this is good to have kusala in Dhamma-vinaya. She said: Only right now. Is it beneficial to read vinaya? Acharn: Yes, for everyone. No need to count how many siilas there is. She explained what is writen on Thai T-shirt from Dhamma Study and Support Fundation: "Develop godness and study Dhamma". Best wishes Lukas #126634 From: han tun Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Death and separation. hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for an excellent post and a timely reminder. with my best wishes to you and Lodewijk, Han --- On Sat, 9/22/12, Nina van Gorkom wrote: Death and separation. When we are attached to someone we cling mostly to ourself. We cling to the happy feeling that is due to the company of someone else, family and dear people. Everything is for the sake of ourselves. We should know that there is nothing that belongs to ourselves. Through pa~n~naa we can detach more from bondages. Even though this attachment is not yet eradicated, detachment can be accumulated as sa.nkhaarakkhanda, the khandha of formations. When satipa.t.thaana is developed vipassanaa ~naa.nas, stages of insight can arise, and when the first stage of principal insight arises it is vipassanaa as power, balava vipassanaa. Then there will be more detachment from self and others. In daily life we are intent on pleasure and that is the cause of dukkha. We should listen to the Dhamma so that there will be firm remembrance of the Dhamma and conditions for the development of kusala. In daily life we should not try to change anything or force ourselves to let go of the bonds we have with family and dear people. Our life is as it used to be but the citta can change. Before we had strong clinging but gradually this can decrease. When there are attachment and ignorance this conditions strong clinging. When there is evenmindedness (tatramajjhattataa) and pa~n~naa, our life is as it used to be but there will be less clinging. Lobha is the cause of dukkha. Nina. #126635 From: Ken O Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:56 pm Subject: Satipatthana 10 - Mental Object - Awakening Factors - Investigating of states ashkenn2k Dear all Commentary to the Topics of Abhidhamma adn Commentary, pg 274 <> Dispeller of Delusion under subject of Awakening Factors <<1523. So tatha sato viharanto <227.9> ("he dwelling thus mindful"): that bhikkhu dwelling by being mindful with mindfulness arisen in that way. Tam dhammam ("that state"): that state long done, long spoken of, of the kind stated above. Pannaya pavicinati ("investigates with understanding"): he investigates with understanding as impermanent, painful, no self. [313] Pavicarati <227.10> ("examines"): he examines by making understanding by way of impermanence, pain and no self explore there. Parivimamsam apajjati ("embarks upon a scrutiny"): enters upon a survey, a search. Ayam vuccati ("this is called"): this insight knowledge which originates awakening factors of the kind aforesaid, is called the investigation-of-states awakening factor. >> Dispeller of Delusion under subject of Satipatthana <<1309. But the investigation-of-states enlightenment factor comes about thus: There are profitable and unprofitable states, bhikkhus, blameful and blameless states, states to be cultivated and not to be cultivated, states low and high, states dark and bright with their counterparts. Wise bringing to mind much practised therein is the nutriment for the arising of the unarisen investigation-of-states enlightenment factor, or leads to growth, increase, development and perfection of the arisen investigation-of-states enlightenment factor'5' (S v 66).>> Commentary to Satipatthana <> KC #126636 From: Ken O Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:02 pm Subject: Satipatthana 10 - Mental Object - Awakening Factors - Investigating of states 2 ashkenn2k Dear all Dispeller of Delusion <<1310. |276| Furthermore, seven things lead to the arising of the investigation-of-states enlightenment factor: (1) asking questions, (2) the act of cleansing the basis, (3) imparting of evenness to the five faculties, (4) avoidance of persons of no understanding, (5) cultivation of persons of understanding, (6) reviewing the field for the exercise of profound knowledge, (7) being resolved thereon. 1311. Herein, (1) "asking questions" is repeated questioning about the meaning of the aggregates, elements, bases, faculties, powers, enlightenment factors, path factors, jhana factors, tranquillity and insight. 1312. (2) "The act of cleansing the basis" is the cleansing of the personal and external basis; for when one's head-hair, nails and body-hair are too long, or the body has an excess of [one of] the humours (ussanna-dosa)^ and is stained and smeared with sweat, then the personal basis is unclean and unpurified. But when the robes are worn, dirty and ill-smelling, or the abode is soiled, then the external basis is unclean and unpurified. So the cleansing of the personal basis should be done by cutting the head-hair, etc., by lightening the body by means of emetics and purgatives and by shampooing and bathing. The external basis should be cleansed by means of sewing, washing, dyeing, mending, etc. For when this personal and external basis is unclean, also knowledge about arisen consciousnesses and conscious components is unpurified, like the light from a crest of flame arisen dependent on an impure lamp- bowl, wick and oil. But when the personal and external basis is clean, also knowledge about arisen consciousnesses and conscious components is purified, like the light from a crest of flame arisen dependent on a pure lamp-bowl, wick and oil. Hence it was said [above]: "The act of cleansing the basis leads to the arising of the investigation-of-states enlightenment factor." >> KC #126637 From: Ken O Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:09 pm Subject: Satipatthana 10 - Mental Object - Awakening Factors - Investigating of states 3 ashkenn2k Dear all Dispeller of Delusion <<1313. (3) "Imparting of evenness to the [five] faculties" is a name for the act of equalising the faculties beginning with faith. For if one's faith faculty is strong and the rest slack, then the energy faculty will be unable to exercise its function of exerting, the mindfulness faculty its function of establishing, the concentration faculty its function of non-distraction and the understanding faculty its unction of seeing. Therefore that [faith faculty] should be diminished by means of reviewing the [real] nature of the object [causing excessive faith] or by not bringing it to mind by as much as it is in excess in him who is bringing it to mind. And here the story of the Elder Vakkali is the illustration (see S lii 119). But if the energy faculty |277| is strong, then neither can the faith faculty exercise its function of resolving nor the others their other [respective] functions. Therefore that [energy faculty] should be diminished by means of the development of tranquillity and so on. And here the story of the Elder Sona should be pointed out (see Vin i 182; A iii 374). And also with the rest: when one has too much strength, the others are unable to exercise their other [respective] functions; so it should be understood. 1314. In particular, however, they here praise the equalising of (the faculties of] faith with understanding and of concentration with energy. One of strong faith and lax understanding is foolishly trust- ful and trusts without grounds. One of strong understanding and lax faith partakes of craftiness and is incurable like a disease caused by medicine. [Thinking:] 'Profitable [kamma] comes about by the mere entertaining of the thought' he goes too far and, through not performing meritorious deeds, by way of gifts, etc., he reappears in hell. Through the equalising of the two one is confident [but] only with grounds. 1315. Indolence overcomes one who is strong in concentration and lax in energy because of concentration's tendency to indolence. Agitation overcomes one who is strong in energy and lax in con- centration because of energy's tendency to agitation. But concentration yoked to energy does not fall into indolence; and energy yoked to concentration does not fall into agitation. Therefore equal- ising of the two should be effected. For absorption comes about through the equalisation of the two. 1316. Furthermore, strong faith is fitting for one who is working on concentration; for he thus reaches absorption through faith and trust. But as regards concentration and understanding, strong one- pointedness is fitting for one who is working on concentration; for he thus reaches absorption. Strong understanding is fitting for one Who is working on insight; for thus he reaches penetration of the characteristics. But due to the equalising of these two there comes be absorption for sure. I317 But strong mindfulness is fitting throughout; for mindfulness protects the mind from falling into agitation through [excess of] faith, energy and understanding which tend to agitation, and from falling into indolence through [excess of] concentration which tends to indolence. Therefore it is desirable throughout, like the salt seasoning in all curries and like the minister-of-all-work in all the king's affairs. Hence it is said:57 fcAnd indeed mindfulness has been stated as all-helpful by the Blessed One' (cf. S v 115). For what reason? Because the mind has its refuge in mindfulness, |278| and mindfulness is manifested as protection. And there is no exerting or restraining of the mind without mindfulness.>> KC #126638 From: Ken O Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:12 pm Subject: Satipatthana 10 - Mental Object - Awakening Factors - Investigating of states 4 ashkenn2k Dear all Dispeller of Delusion <<1318. (4) Avoidance of persons of no understanding" means avoiding from afar unintelligent persons who lack firm understanding of the classes of aggregates, etc. 1319. (5) "Cultivation of persons of understanding" is a name for the cultivation of persons endowed with understanding of rise and fall which lays hold of the fifty characteristics (see Ps i 54-57) equally. 1320. (6) "Reviewing the field for the exercise of profound knowledge" means reviewing in various ways by means of profound understanding which occurs in respect of the profound aggregates, etc. 1321. (7) "Being resolved thereon" means the tending, inclining and leaning of the mind thereto for the purpose of arousing the investigation-of-states enlightenment factor while standing, sitting, etc. 1322. But he understands that it is through the Arahat path that there comes to be the perfection through development of that [investigation-of-states enlightenment factor] which has arisen.>> KC #126639 From: Ken O Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 12 ashkenn2k Dear Phil and Howard there is always chanda. One needs chanda to be a Buddha. So it not necessary just because one wants to go somewhere is all conditioned by lobha. When one go to the temple to pay respect to the Buddha or to listen to a sermon, it is kusala chanda. One desiring result may not be greed, just like what I said one needs chanda to be a Buddha. Just like in the stories of Buddha, there are instances where Buddha while he was developing his paramis, desiring merit, perform service to Silent Buddhas. Thanks KC #126640 From: Ken O Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contiguity/Absence condition (was, Re: kenh3) ashkenn2k Dear Rob E Rob E: That is interesting to hear. So there is no explanation for how kusala accumulates? This is another of my personal view. Everything when a sense citta arises, feeling, perception, kamma, etc will also arise. Though they are weak and neutral, they could set the stage for kusala or akusala dhamma to arise at the javana stage. These cetasikas do accumulate when they arise and I believe the accumulation part is through the javana process only as in the the sense citta they are weak. Mindfulness of the body parts is to change the way we perceive what we take pleasurable in our body to be foul. this strengthening of the foul perception accumulated through the javana process where perception cetasika also arise. In future it will help when a sense object arise in the sense door, so that the subsequent javana process of the sense process will be kusala as perception at the sense citta that accumulates noted it as foul rather than pleasurable. This habitual process of feelings towards a pleasurable object or perception of a pleasurable at the arising of sense cittas, conditioned by them, will cause the arisen of kusala and aksuala KC #126641 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:58 pm Subject: Poland audio 1 & 2 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Due to quite a few requests, we're trying to get installments of very part-edited audio extracts uploaded quickly. I even heard today that a group of friends in Vietnam listen most evenings to the edited discussions. So with pleasure, we've now uploaded the first two sessions with K.Sujin held on the morning and over lunch-time of 10th Sept. Her attendance in the morning was unexpected as she'd announced the night before (when we arrived around midnight at our hotel after her two flights from Bangkok) that she wouldn't be joining us, but changed her mind in the morning. The audio (and the ones to follow) can be found towards the end of the audio section under "Editing in Progress - Poland". http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ Please let Jon or Pt know if you have any difficulty downloading. The questions/comments to K.Sujin are mostly from Alberto, Lukas, Wojtek, Ann and ourselves These were the first set of notes I wrote at the time for the morning session, giving me a chance to read them and correct some typos: ***** >S:This morning we had a lovely discussion outside in the garden overlooking the lake - a crisp, sunny morning - sitting close to Ajahn Sujin as we listened to her and added our contributions. She seems particularly happy to be hear as do all the group. One word - understand one word at a time. Dhamma. What is dhamma now? Life is in a moment, from moment to moment . If there is not this moment, is there life? Who can know what will happen at the next moment? Will it be thinking, seeing or hearing? No expectations! Always looking for that which is gone and cannot be found. The Teachings are about the absolute truth. The lake, the people, the table, the friends, all just ideas, not the truth at this moment. A Polish friend, Wojtek raised the issue of meditation and retreats. Ajahn asked if this was by ignorance or right understanding. What is the motivation? If it's for happiness, we can just drink coffee! If there is no attachment, one will not sit or follow it anymore. Give it up! Lots on seeing and visible object. Seeing - no rupa mixed in it, no self that experiences at all. Seeing as 'pandara' - the chief in experiencing, pure. It just sees, not anything else. Lukas asked about studying and hearing - it seems like the slow way and life is still so painful. What do we study Dhamma for? To avoid pain? Lots of expectations. The purpose should be just to understand, not to avoid difficulties. Everyone has to die sooner or later - with ignorance or with some understanding? Is it a little understanding or a lot - either way must be the right understanding of whatever appears. The truth is that life changes - pain, attachment, aversion - let it come with right understanding. Otherwise, just more sorrow and pain if one studies with attachment and expectations. A comment by Wojtek about less seeing and disturbance in the quiet place as compared to the city. Seeing is seeing, no matter who or where. What does one like to have? Happiness which changes and is so short or understanding? Seeing is not happy or unhappy. Happiness just passes away. Understanding must develop to know more. feelings - happy, unhappy or indifferent - all anatta, all pass away. Delirious thinking about cats and dogs or about 5khandhas, 8fold path or any other dhamma topic one doesn't understand or is not related to reality now. The role of vitakka touching the object of delirious thinking or thinking wisely about realities now, coming closer and closer to the truth to condition right understanding and patipatti.< ***** Metta Sarah ===== #126642 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland audio 1 & 2 sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, Nina & friends, Lukas made a comment that some of the meal time discussions he had with K.Sujin were the best and the first part-edited lunch-time audio we've just uploaded is a wonderful example. K.Sujin is talking about attachment to another person and the inevitable grief which follows. A few notes, I just jotted down as I listened to it. She starts by asking "whom do you love most?". "See, come back to the truth." Anytime there is painful feeling it's because of ignorance. Painful feeling, thinking of another. What about previous lives? No meaning now.... let time pass and you'll know there can be greater attachment than this. This is very little, she says. When one knows it's more benefit, the mind turns towards panna instead of thinking over again with painful feeling. Other things are far more precious than the attachment or object of attachment because the object of attachment is just rupa. In reality, you are attached to mahabhuta rupa and derived rupas, that's all! So no matter what happens, develop understanding. When something happens and there's no understanding, it's much worse. The difference is between ignorance and understanding. One is not safe as long as there is akusala. Kusala saves one from akusala. Just being attached to oneself is not enough, wanting more fire, danger.... What about metta, much better than clinging. It doesn't hurt at all. (She then talks beautifully about metta.) Who was your dear one in the last life? See, no more. There will be more later for sure. So just forget that - no use. It's gone. The new one is coming very fast, again and again and again. Non-stop until panna grows. This will repeat from life to life to life. I hope many of you have a chance to listen to these discussions and add any comments. Metta Sarah ===== #126643 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:14 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Poland 10 sarahprocter... Hi Phil (& Sarah Jane), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Thanks for your further explanation. My reaction was a little strident, probably because of the story of my cousin. Hope your cold gets better soon. (Whenever I get a cold I take the opportunity to double or even triple dose codeine- based medicine. You see, I have that tendency lurking in me as well, thus the stridency...) ... S: I think we all have addictive tendencies - we're all addicted to pleasant feeling and ourselves, manifesting in different ways. This is why, whatever Dhamma we hear, it's a lesson for us all. Just to add (it'll probably come up on an audio), a couple of times K.Sujin told Lukas about a guy in Bkk who has listened to her for years, but regularly needs to go to a hospital for addiction treatment. Forget if I mentioned that. Whatever way life goes, right understanding always the most useful. I'm now pretty well recovered from cold, flu, cough, tummy bug.....long stories.... and now Jon's turn:-)) Still just visible object, hardness and more thinking.... metta Sarah ====== #126644 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:47 pm Subject: More Poland pics sarahprocter... Dear Friends, More pics, mainly from our discussions as selected by Jagkrit from the large number taken by Dream's boyfriend, Boon. Dream is Jagkrit's daughter who'll be heard on the audio in due course. She mentioned she might join us here as well (hint, hint, Dream!) All the pics are in a temporary Poland album. Metta Sarah ===== #126645 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhs sarahprocter... Hi Pt & all, S: Another idea! > From: ptaus1 >I don't understand what is triplet 9 in the matrix pointing to, and how is it different from triplet 8? Here they are for comparison: > >Pali: > >8. (ka) dassanena pahaatabbaa dhammaa. >(kha) bhaavanaaya pahaatabbaa dhammaa. >(ga) neva dassanena na bhaavanaaya pahaatabbaa dhammaa. > >9. (ka) dassanena pahaatabbahetukaa dhammaa. >(kha) bhaavanaaya pahaatabbahetukaa dhammaa. >(ga) neva dassanena na bhaavanaaya pahaatabbahetukaa dhammaa. > >English - Khine: > >8. Dassana Tika: >(i) Dhammaa eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga (1006, 1405) >(ii) Dhammaa eliminated by the three higher Maggas (1011, 1406) >(iii) Dhammaa not eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga nor by the three higher Maggas (1012, 1407) > >9. Dassana Hetuka Tika: >(i) Dhammaa with root causes eliminated by Sotaapatti Magga (1013, 1408) >(ii) Dhammaa with root causes eliminated by the three higher Maggas (1018, 1409) >(iii) Dhammaa which have no other root causes to associate with and which are eliminated neither by Sotaapatti Magga nor by the three higher Maggas (1019, 1410) > >pt: I guess I don't understand what is the meaning of "Dhammaa with root causes", as opposed to just "Dhammaa". .... S: Another possible suggestion..... In the case of i) and ii) the dhammaa are the same. There are 12 akusala cittas and 4 kinds rooted in moha and lobha (i.e the four kinds with wrong view) plus one kind rooted in moha only (the one with doubt) are eradicated by the sotapanna. All the other kinds of akusala cittas are eradicated by the higher maggas. In the case of iii), in 8. Dassana Tika, all other dhammaa are included (other than those referred to in i) and ii). In the case of iii), in 9. Dassana Hetuka Tika, where I understand the dhammaa with roots are the subject matter, all other dhammaa are included as before *except* those other dhammaa with roots, i.e. all sobhana cittas (which are all rooted in alobha and amoha). In other words, I'm suggesting that this might refer to the same dhammaa as in 8 iii minus all sobhana cittas which are hetukaa dhammaa. Whether this is right or not, there are countless akusala cittas arising now with tenacious roots after moments of seeing and hearing. Those unwholesome roots can only be eradicated by the magga cittas as stressed above. There are also various sobhana cittas arising with roots. These include not only kusala cittas, but also kusala vipaka cittas and the kiriya cittas of the arahat.* Then there are the other kinds of dhamma remaining without roots, such as the akusala vipaka cittas and most kiriya cittas. It's rather like the discussion we had on dhatus, elements and classifications in Poland. Whatever the groupings, it shows all kinds of dhammaa, realities are included, no atta to be found anywhere. Metta Sarah * the following is from "Conditions" by Nina, ch 1, 'root condition'" http://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/conditions/d/doc2901.html "When akusala citta arises it is always rooted in moha, and it may have in addition the root of lobha or of dosa. The twelve types of akusala citta are classified according to hetu: eight types are rooted in moha and lobha, and they are called lobha-mula-cittas,2 two types are rooted in moha and dosa, and they are called dosa-mula-cittas,3 two types are rooted only in moha, and they are called moha-mula-cittas4. All sobhana cittas have to be rooted in alobha and adosa and they may or may not be rooted in amoha or panna as well. Of the eight types of maha-kusala cittas (kusala cittas of the sense-sphere),5 the eight types of maha-vipakacittas and the eight types or maha-kiriyacittas (of the arahat),6 four types out of the eight are accompanied by panna and four types are not accompanied by panna, thus, accompanied by two sobhana hetus.7" ... 2. Mula also means root. Four types are accompanied by somanassa, pleasant feeling, four types by wrong view, four types are asankharika, not-induced or spontaneous, four types are sasankharika, induced. Altogether there are eight types.3. One type is not-induced and one type is induced.4. One is called accompanied by restlessness, uddhacca, and one is accompanied by doubt, vicikiccha.5. Maha means great.6. The arahat does not have akusala cittas nor kusala cittas, he does not perform kamma which produces result. When he has sobhana cittas, cittas accompanied by beautiful qualities, they are inoperative, maha-kiriyacittas which do not produce result.7. Four types are accompanied by somanassa, pleasant feeling, four types are accompanied by upekkha, indifferent feeling. Four types are asankharika, not induced, four types are sasankharika, induced. ===================== #126646 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:02 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Conditions for the arising of panna sarahprocter... Hi Wojtek, Your voice comes over well on the audio. Hope you and Maya have had a chance to listen. The part-edited ones we're uploading may be easier to follow the questioners and any loud noises are cut out which is a great advantage if one is listening while dozing on a long-haul flight! One question on your question below: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "wojciechczypicki" wrote: > The question is: if there is no need to do something, why give teachings about effort/doing something? .... S: To give another example which may be more obvious, why do you think the Buddha taught about lobha, attachment and its danger? Was it because you or I could do something about it and stop it from arising? Or was it so that there could be the development of understanding of its nature when it arises, like now? .... > Just to explain how things work? Guys - there is nothing to be done, but since you came, let me give you a short description of a way to Nibbana. No need to make notes as everything happens by conditions. .... S: Nothing to be done, no you or I who came anywhere, but dhammas are arising now and can be understood. Such understanding is the way, but no one can make it arise. Metta Sarah ===== #126647 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta sarahprocter... Dear Han & Alberto, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Sarah (Alberto, Nina, all), > > I will try to interpret. > > [Tassa vissajjane cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa] that person practices the four foundations of mindfulness. "vissajjana" literally means bestowing or giving away, but it would not make sense; and so I have changed it. > > [maggakkha.ne] at the moment of magga. > > [catukiccasaadhanavasena] by the effect of fulfilling the four tasks or performing the four functions. What four functions? The path consciousness (maggacitta) simultaneously performs four functions, one with respect to each of the four truths. These four functions are the full understanding (pari~n~naa) of suffering; the abandoning (pahaana) of craving, its origin; the realization (sacchikiriya) of Nibbaana, its cessation; and the developement (bhaavanaa) of the Noble Eightfold Path. [page 355 of CMA] > > [uppannaa sati] sati arises. This sati must be the supramundane sati, because of the preceding account of magga and four functions. ... S: Helpful, thank you Han. ... > > [saa samaadhissa paccayatthena nimitta.m] because of the above, or taking the above as the condition, the samaadhi arises. This samaadhi must also be supra-mundane samaadhi. > I take nimitta, here, meaning attribute, reason, condition (not "sign" as Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi has remarked.). .... S: As you and Alberto have stressed, Visaakha was an anagami and I think it is the anagami samaadhi that is being referred to. (Later we read about nirodha samapatti, only available to anagamis and arahats). Alberto mentioned that 'samaadhinimitta' is found along with 'adhicitta' in the texts and we know it is only the anagami that perfects adhi citta (the concentration that arises with insight), so perhaps we can say the text is referring to satipatthana which has led to the path consciousness of the anagami here. Now, if there is any understanding of what appears as a reality, there is calm, it is the beginning of the development of adhi sila, adhi citta, adhi panna. It's really only by such development that eventually such passages might be properly understood! Thank you again for sharing all your work and for the helpful series. Metta === #126648 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 12 upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Phil) - In a message dated 9/22/2012 4:52:18 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: Dear Phil and Howard there is always chanda. One needs chanda to be a Buddha. So it not necessary just because one wants to go somewhere is all conditioned by lobha. When one go to the temple to pay respect to the Buddha or to listen to a sermon, it is kusala chanda. One desiring result may not be greed, just like what I said one needs chanda to be a Buddha. Just like in the stories of Buddha, there are instances where Buddha while he was developing his paramis, desiring merit, perform service to Silent Buddhas. Thanks KC ================================ This is as I see it, with the disclaimer that, interspersed, are also many moments of atta-based craving and aversion. Even during periods of what seem to be (and largely are) periods of wholesome activity and mentality, our defilements do arise. (I see this not as a pessimistic view but as a realistic one.) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #126649 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:45 pm Subject: Re: Poland 13 sarahprocter... Hi Alberto, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sprlrt@... wrote: > Listening to Khun Sujin also helps to realize the depth of the truth of the Buddha's teachings which otherwise turn into the conventional teachings which one reads or studies in the translations of the tipitaka. > > Only pa~n~naa can really understand what the Buddha was actually saying 2500 years ago and we are fortunate enough to have a very good friend like Khun Sujin to explaining it to us in plain English. ... S: True! ... > I remember she asked the question What is the purpose of studying/listening to the Dhamma? > And I don't think we've provided the 'right' answer yet, which is always somehow self-related, like my own 'to get (myself) out of samsara'. ... S: Yes, usually we think of something for 'me' yet again' or something for the 'outer world'. However the right purpose is just studying Dhamma for the sake of understanding. I can say this, but it's really helpful to truthfully consider the purpose, like now. is there a wish to gain anything for oneself now? ... > PS Thank you and Jagkrit for the excellent talks' reports. ... S: Thx, Alberto. I rather ran out of steam towards the end, but now we have Lukas and others adding their own reports and as we get the recordings uploaded, lots of material for anyone to add comments/transcribe passages. So glad you joined us and your questions/comments come over clearly on the audio too. Metta Sarah ====== #126650 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (1) sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > My physical condition is deteriorating slowly. All my major illnesses are under control. But I have general weakness of all my muscles in the whole body. I cannot walk as fast as and as far as before. Besides, I feel dizzy when I get up and when I walk. So when I go out alone, I wear a tag around my neck bearing my name and telephone numbers to contact. I also keep a mobile phone in my shirt pocket. Fortunately, my mental condition is still good. ... S: That is very fortunate indeed. There is still the opportunity to study the Dhamma and develop understanding and all kinds of kusala in this life, however short or long that might be. Last time we were just in Bkk for a short time and I didn't contact you as you'd said a while ago that you cannot travel far nowadays. From your energetic and well-researched writing and studies, no one would imagine that you (or Nina for that matter) are in your 80s. Metta Sarah ===== #126651 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:58 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (15) Right understanding of citta? sarahprocter... Dear Phil & Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Pt.II of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket continued: > > "When one has right understanding of the citta that sees, the citta that hears or the citta that thinks, satipatthaana can arise and be aware of the characteristics of citta at that moment, and it can be known as the reality, the element that experiences something."(55) > > (end of passage) > > Ph: Does "right understanding of the citta (that sees)" mean intellectual understanding of seeing learned from the texts and by listening to the good Dhamma friend. Or does it refer to previous moments of satipatthana? Or both? ... S: There must be the very firm intellectual right understanding of present realities before satipatthana can arise and develop. This is the sacca ~naana which Lukas referred to, the firm understanding of the Truths. For example, now it is seeing which arises and sees visible object. It's a dhamma, a dhatu, which arises and falls away, not any person at all. Because it arises and falls away, it's inherently unsatisfactory, not worth clinging to at all. What is seen now is just another impermanent dhamma, no atta anywhere at all. When there's doubt and speculation about the 8fold path, future lives, memorizing of classifications not properly understood and so on, it's not sacca ~naana. This is why she stressed how vitakka ('thinking') always takes the citta away from the present reality. Metta Sarah ==== #126652 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:15 am Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (15) Right understanding of citta? truth_aerator Dear Sarah, Nina, all, >S:When there's doubt and speculation about the 8fold path, future >lives, memorizing of classifications not properly understood and so >on, it's not sacca ~naana. This is why she stressed how vitakka >('thinking') always takes the citta away from the present reality. >=================================================== If past/future rebirths were self evident truth than one wouldn't need to think about it. Same with classifications. Even the Buddha had different types of classification (2, 3, 5,6,12,18). Different Abhidhammas had different classification schemes. If it was self evident then wouldn't there be one teaching and no doubt about that? With best wishes, Alex #126653 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:21 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Poland 10 truth_aerator Dear Sarah, >S:K.Sujin told Lukas about a guy in Bkk who has listened to her for >years, but regularly needs to go to a hospital for addiction >treatment. Forget if I mentioned that. Whatever way life goes, right >understanding always the most useful. >=================================================== Is this purely physical addiction? Or is it mental addiction? I hope he fully recovers soon. With best wishes, Alex #126654 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:29 am Subject: Re: Poland audio 1 & 2 glenjohnann Sarah and J. Wow, that's fast work. Very much appreciated. Anumodana! Looking forward to listening very soon. Thank you very much. Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > Due to quite a few requests, we're trying to get installments of very part-edited audio extracts uploaded quickly. I even heard today that a group of friends in Vietnam listen most evenings to the edited discussions. > > So with pleasure, we've now uploaded the first two sessions with K.Sujin held on the morning and over lunch-time of 10th Sept. > > Her attendance in the morning was unexpected as she'd announced the night before (when we arrived around midnight at our hotel after her two flights from Bangkok) that she wouldn't be joining us, but changed her mind in the morning. > > The audio (and the ones to follow) can be found towards the end of the audio section under "Editing in Progress - Poland". > http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ > > > Please let Jon or Pt know if you have any difficulty downloading. > > The questions/comments to K.Sujin are mostly from Alberto, Lukas, Wojtek, Ann and ourselves > > These were the first set of notes I wrote at the time for the morning session, giving me a chance to read them and correct some typos: > > ***** > >S:This morning we had a lovely discussion outside in the garden overlooking the > > lake - a crisp, sunny morning - sitting close to Ajahn Sujin as we listened to > her and added our contributions. She seems particularly happy to be hear as do > all the group. > > One word - understand one word at a time. Dhamma. What is dhamma now? Life is in > a moment, from moment to moment . If there is not this moment, is there life? > Who can know what will happen at the next moment? Will it be thinking, seeing or > hearing? No expectations! Always looking for that which is gone and cannot be > found. > > The Teachings are about the absolute truth. The lake, the people, the table, > the friends, all just ideas, not the truth at this moment. > > A Polish friend, Wojtek raised the issue of meditation and retreats. > Ajahn asked if this was by ignorance or right understanding. What is the > motivation? If it's for happiness, we can just drink coffee! If there is no > attachment, one will not sit or follow it anymore. Give it up! > > Lots on seeing and visible object. Seeing - no rupa mixed in it, no self that > experiences at all. Seeing as 'pandara' - the chief in experiencing, pure. It > just sees, not anything else. > > Lukas asked about studying and hearing - it seems like the slow way and life is > still so painful. What do we study Dhamma for? To avoid pain? Lots of > expectations. The purpose should be just to understand, not to avoid > difficulties. > > Everyone has to die sooner or later - with ignorance or with some understanding? > Is it a little understanding or a lot - either way must be the right > understanding of whatever appears. The truth is that life changes - pain, > attachment, aversion - let it come with right understanding. Otherwise, just > more sorrow and pain if one studies with attachment and expectations. > > A comment by Wojtek about less seeing and disturbance in the quiet place as > compared to the city. Seeing is seeing, no matter who or where. > > What does one like to have? Happiness which changes and is so short or > understanding? Seeing is not happy or unhappy. Happiness just passes away. > Understanding must develop to know more. feelings - happy, unhappy or > indifferent - all anatta, all pass away. > > Delirious thinking about cats and dogs or about 5khandhas, 8fold path or any > other dhamma topic one doesn't understand or is not related to reality now. The > role of vitakka touching the object of delirious thinking or thinking wisely > about realities now, coming closer and closer to the truth to condition right > understanding and patipatti.< > ***** > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > #126655 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland audio 1 & 2 nilovg Dear Sarah, Ann and all, Op 22-sep-2012, om 12:16 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Who was your dear one in the last life? See, no more. There will be > more later for sure. So just forget that - no use. It's gone. The > new one is coming very fast, again and again and again. Non-stop > until panna grows. This will repeat from life to life to life. ------ N: Very helpful. I listened to the first Poland discussion and I like the beginning: life is one moment, succeeding from one moment to another one, from birth to death. N: Life is one moment, this keeps us from clinging too much to stories, to situations. Thank you Ann for your lovely letter, ---- Nina. #126656 From: han tun Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta hantun1 Dear Sarah & Alberto, > > Han: [saa samaadhissa paccayatthena nimitta.m] because of the above, or taking the above as the condition, the samaadhi arises. This samaadhi must also be supra-mundane samaadhi. I take nimitta, here, meaning attribute, reason, condition (not "sign" as Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi has remarked.). .... > S: As you and Alberto have stressed, Visaakha was an anagami and I think it is the anagami samaadhi that is being referred to. (Later we read about nirodha samapatti, only available to anagamis and arahats). Alberto mentioned that 'samaadhinimitta' is found along with 'adhicitta' in the texts and we know it is only the anagami that perfects adhi citta (the concentration that arises with insight), so perhaps we can say the text is referring to satipatthana which has led to the path consciousness of the anagami here. Now, if there is any understanding of what appears as a reality, there is calm, it is the beginning of the development of adhi sila, adhi citta, adhi panna. It's really only by such development that eventually such passages might be properly understood! -------------------- Han: Thank you very much for your above comments. I learn a lot from it. Yes, we can say the text is referring to satipa.t.thaana which has led to the path consciousness of the anaagaami here. And I will be grateful if I can know the text reference for [it is only the anaagaami that perfects adhi citta (the concentration that arises with insight)]. If the text reference is not easily available, that is alright, Sarah. with metta and respect, Han #126657 From: han tun Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (1) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your kind words. I wanted to see you and Jon when you came to Bangkok. But my family would not allow me to go out alone for such a distance. They allow me to go alone to the nearby Department stores only. with metta and respect, Han --- On Sat, 9/22/12, sarah wrote: S: That is very fortunate indeed. There is still the opportunity to study the Dhamma and develop understanding and all kinds of kusala in this life, however short or long that might be. Last time we were just in Bkk for a short time and I didn't contact you as you'd said a while ago that you cannot travel far nowadays. From your energetic and well-researched writing and studies, no one would imagine that you (or Nina for that matter) are in your 80s. #126658 From: han tun Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta hantun1 Dear Sarah & Alberto, In my last post I have requested the text reference for [it is only the anaagaami that perfects adhi citta (the concentration that arises with insight)]. I will try to explain the above statement by you. Please correct me if I am wrong. I consider the citta is adhi-citta when it is free from Uddambhaagiya-sa.myojana (higher fetters) and the Anusayas that correspond to the higher fetters. There are ten Sa.myojanas. Abandoned by Sotaapanna (1) ditthisa.myojana (2) vicikicchasa.myojana (3) siilabbataparaamaa sasa.myojana (4) issaasa.myojana (5) macchariyasa.myojana Abandoned by Anaagaami (6) kaamaraagasa.myojana (7) pa.tighasa.myojana Abandoned by Arahant (8) bhavaraagasa.myojana (9) maanasa.myojana (10) avijjaasa.myojana Sa.myojanas (6) to (10) are Uddambhaagiya-sa.myojanas. Thus, by way of Sa.myojanas, your statement is supported. -------------------- There are seven Anusayas. Abandoned by Sotaapanna (1) di.t.thaanusaya (2) vicikicchaanusaya Abandoned by Anaagaami (3) kaamaraagaanusaya (4) pa.tighaanusaya Abandoned by Arahant (5) bhavaraagaanusaya (6) maanaanusaya (7) avijjaanusaya Anusayas (3) to (7) correspond to Uddambhaagiya-sa.myojanas. Thus, by way of Anusyas, your statement is supported. with metta and respect, Han --- On Sun, 9/23/12, han tun wrote: Dear Sarah & Alberto, Han: Thank you very much for your above comments. I learn a lot from it. Yes, we can say the text is referring to satipa.t.thaana which has led to the path consciousness of the anaagaami here. And I will be grateful if I can know the text reference for [it is only the anaagaami that perfects adhi citta (the concentration that arises with insight)]. If the text reference is not easily available, that is alright, Sarah. #126659 From: "sukinderpal narula" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 2:58 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Conditions for the arising of panna sukinderpal Hello Wojtek, Sorry to take time to respond. > Thanks for reply. I guess I could have anticipated that answer: > > > This is why the Abhidhamma is a great help and should never be > > overlooked. Reading a Sutta and interpreting it as suggesting the need > > to do something, would be equivalent to not having heard the Buddha's > > message. It would be like going on as before, thinking and doing things > > with the idea of self and control. > > > > Those during the Buddha's time who did not need to hear the Abhidhamma > > exposition, were ones with highly developed wisdom and little tendency > > to interpret what the Buddha taught with self-view. Those of us who need > > to hear the Abhidhamma are therefore the one's who lack wisdom. > > The question is: if there is no need to do something, why give teachings about effort/doing something? > Just to explain how things work? Guys - there is nothing to be done, but since you came, let me give you a short description of a way to Nibbana. No need to make notes as everything happens by conditions. It appears that I missed your point. Is what you are asking then, why the Buddha needed to emphasize right effort in a way suggestive of "doing something" if all he wanted to point out was the existence of impersonal dhammas? Why not just point out these dhammas as is done in the Abhidhamma, to his audience? I can only guess, but you can tell me what does not make sense. To describe the Dhamma as in the Abhidhamma; this is for those who otherwise on hearing conventional teachings fail to make the reality vs. concept distinction and therefore end up misunderstanding the Dhamma. For those who had the accumulated understanding, it would not make sense to use technical language when it is in the context of normal everyday life situations that straightening of view takes place. The concepts don't change, only the understanding does. Besides, the Buddha talking to his audience was not a classroom kind of situation with a study program. Regarding effort, given that this mental factor arises with all volitional consciousness and when it is not right, must be wrong, it is easy to see why the Buddha would emphasize Right effort. In the 37 Factors of Enlightenment Right Effort stands out, and it is also one of the Perfections. But was he pointing to deliberate action with the idea of self or simply describing the role of the particular impersonal mental factor? As I said, effort arises all the time, sometimes right and sometimes wrong, and often associated with a conventional activity. What the Buddha therefore did, was simply refer to these conventional activities with the intent to differentiate right from wrong effort, one a kusala and other an akusala mental reality. He did not point at the need for some conventional activity since a call to "do something" would in fact *not* be about right effort but something else. It would be pointing to the idea of 'self' working within a situation and not about understanding a present moment reality, in this case effort. Understanding a present moment reality as against working with concepts is what distinguishes the Buddha's teachings from all other teachings. Awaiting your feedback. Metta, Sukin #126660 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:02 pm Subject: Sri Lanka revisited, Ch 2, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, Politeness which is sincere and paying respect are ways of síla. Bhante Dhammadharo pointed out that politeness may not always be sincere. We may have selfish motives for politeness, for example, when we want to have a good reputation, or when we want to obtain favours from someone else. Politeness which is kusala must be sincere. As regards paying respect, do we really understand what it is? It is not an empty gesture. Why is it wholesome to pay respect? What are the reasons for paying respect? When we see good qualities and virtues in others we can show our appreciation of these qualities through the body or through speech. We pay respect to the Buddha, not to his statue, but to his virtues; we think of his wisdom, his compassion and his purity. We pay respect to the monks because they have left their homes for the homeless life in order to “fare the brahman life completely fulfilled”. For a layman it is difficult to observe síla perfectly. Since one has to live in a house and one has to prepare food, one may find oneself in circumstances which make it difficult always to observe síla perfectly. A person who has accumulations for monkhood leaves his home for the homeless life, he leads a life of non-violence and of fewness of wishes. We read in the “Greater Discourse to Saccaka” (Middle Length Sayings I, no. 36) that the Buddha said to Aggivessana: “... Now, Aggivessana, before my Self-awakening while I was still the bodhisatta, not fully awakened, it occurred to me: Narrow is the household life, a path of dust, going forth is in the open, nor is it easy while dwelling in a house to lead the Brahma-faring completely fulfilled, utterly purified, polished like a conchshell. Suppose now that I, having cut off hair and beard, having clothed myself in saffron garments, should go forth from home into homelessness?...” The goal of monkhood is arahatship and the way of life of the monk is actually the way of life of the arahat. The monks can remind us of the ariyan Sangha even when they are not ariyans, because they strive after the virtues of the ariyans. We read in the “Gradual Sayings” (Book of the Elevens, Ch II, § 4) that the Buddha said to Subhúti: “.... In this connection, Subhúti, a monk is virtuous, he lives restrained with the restraint of the Obligation (Påìimokkha), well equipped with range of practice, seeing danger in minutest faults, and undertaking the practice of the training applies himself thereto....” It is proper that laypeople pay respect to the monks who train themselves in observing so many rules in order to lead the “Brahma- faring completely fulfilled”. At the moments of paying respect there are no lobha, dosa or moha, no jealousy or conceit. When we are jealous of others or when we have conceit, we are unable to pay respect. If we are developing satipaìtthåna with a sincere inclination, we should be more eager to pay respect to those who deserve respect since this is a means to have less defilements. ------- Nina. #126661 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta sarahprocter... Dear Han (& Alberto), > From: han tun >Han: >Yes, we can say the text is referring to satipa.t.thaana which has led to the path consciousness of the anaagaami here. And I will be grateful if I can know the text reference for [it is only the anaagaami that perfects adhi citta (the concentration that arises with insight)]. If the text reference is not easily available, that is alright, Sarah. .... S: I have very few texts in Hong Kong, but will let you know if I find anything. Alberto or Nina may have a reference. As I understand, adhicitta is perfected by the anagami with the eradicated of attachment to sensuous objects resulting in this degree of calm when such developed vipassana is of this degree. No more disturbance of any kind from any sense objects like now when there is clinging and aversion as soon as there are experiences through the sense doors. Thank you again for all your helpful reflections and research findings. Your presentations including the Pali are also very good. Metta Sarah ====== #126662 From: han tun Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta hantun1 Dear Sarah,  Please read my follow-up message http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/126658 and let me know if you have any comments on my above message.  with metta and respect, Han --- On Sun, 9/23/12, sarah abbott wrote: S: I have very few texts in Hong Kong, but will let you know if I find anything. Alberto or Nina may have a reference. As I understand, adhicitta is perfected by the anagami with the eradicated of attachment to sensuous objects resulting in this degree of calm when such developed vipassana is of this degree. No more disturbance of any kind from any sense objects like now when there is clinging and aversion as soon as there are experiences through the sense doors. Thank you again for all your helpful reflections and research findings. Your presentations including the Pali are also very good. Metta Sarah ====== #126663 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > I will try to explain the above statement by you. Please correct me if I am wrong. > I consider the citta is adhi-citta when it is free from Uddambhaagiya-sa.myojana (higher fetters) and the Anusayas that correspond to the higher fetters. ... S: I understand all your good points. I think that when adhi-citta is referred to, it's in the context of sikkhaa, training and this is what I was referring to as well. From Nyantiloka's dictionary: sikkhaa, the 'training', which the Buddha's disciple has to undergo, is 3-fold: training in higher morality (adhisiila-sikkhaa) in higher mentality (adhicitta-sikkhaa) in higher wisdom (adhipa~n~naa-sikkhaa) This 3-fold training refers to the 3-fold division of the the 8-fold Path (magga) in morality, concentration and wisdom (siila, samaadhi, pa~n~naa). In D. 16 and A.IV,1 it is said: "It is through not understanding, not penetrating noble morality ... noble concentration ... noble wisdom ... noble deliverance that I, as well as you, have had for such a long time to pass through this round of rebirths.'' "This then is morality, this concentration, this wisdom, this deliverance. Being endowed with morality, concentration brings high fruit and blessing. Being endowed with concentration, wisdom brings high fruit and blessing. Being endowed with wisdom, the mind becomes freed from all cankers (aasava) namely, from the sensuous canker (kaamaasava), from the canker of existence (bhavasava) from the canker of opinions (ditthisava) from the canker of ignorance (avijjaasava). .... S: As I understand, the adhisiila training is said to be fulfilled at stage of sotapanna, the adhicitta training at stage of anagami and adhipa~n~naa training at arahat. This doesn't mean the sotapanna or even the anagami have eradicated all higher fetters or anusayas, only some. For example, a sotapanna will no longer break the precepts, but this doesn't mean there is no longer any akusala siila through body and speech. The adhisiila sikkhaa refers to the purification of siila at this level. Sorry not to have a better reference. Metta Sarah ==== #126664 From: han tun Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta hantun1 Dear Sarah, S: As I understand, the adhisiila training is said to be fulfilled at stage of sotapanna, the adhicitta training at stage of anagami and adhipa~n~naa training at arahat. This doesn't mean the sotapanna or even the anagami have eradicated all higher fetters or anusayas, only some. For example, a sotapanna will no longer break the precepts, but this doesn't mean there is no longer any akusala siila through body and speech. The adhisiila sikkhaa refers to the purification of siila at this level. --------------- Han: I appreciate your above explanation. I accept it with deepest gratitude. Thank you very much. with metta and respect, Han #126665 From: han tun Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:16 pm Subject: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (8) (a) hantun1 Dear Friends, MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi) (UNDERLYING TENDENCIES) [24] "Sukhaaya panaayye, vedanaaya ki.m anusayo anuseti, dukkhaaya vedanaaya ki.m anusayo anuseti, adukkhamasukhaaya vedanaaya ki.m anusayo anusetii"ti? "Sukhaaya kho, aavuso visaakha, vedanaaya raagaanusayo anuseti, dukkhaaya vedanaaya pa.tighaanusayo anuseti, adukkhamasukhaaya vedanaaya avijjaanusayo anusetii"ti. [24] 25. "Lady, what underlying tendency underlies pleasant feeling? What underlying tendency underlies painful feeling? What underlying tendency underlies neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling?" "Friend Visaakha, the underlying tendency to lust underlies pleasant feeling (sukhaaya vedanaaya raga-anusayo anuseti). The underlying tendency to aversion underlies painful feeling (dukkhaaya vedanaaya pa.tigha-anusayo anuseti). The underlying tendency to ignorance underlies neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling (adukkhamasukhaaya vedanaaya avijja-anusayo anuseti)." [Note 473] [Note 473] MT: The three defilements are called anusaya, underlying tendencies, in the sense that they have not been abandoned in the mental continuum to which they belong and because they are capable of arising when a suitable cause presents itself. --------------------- [25] "Sabbaaya nu kho, ayye, sukhaaya vedanaaya raagaanusayo anuseti, sabbaaya dukkhaaya vedanaaya pa.tighaanusayo anuseti, sabbaaya adukkhamasukhaaya vedanaaya avijjaanusayo anusetii"ti? "Na kho, aavuso visaakha, sabbaaya sukhaaya vedanaaya raagaanusayo anuseti, na sabbaaya dukkhaaya vedanaaya pa.tighaanusayo anuseti, na sabbaaya adukkhamasukhaaya vedanaaya avijjaanusayo anusetii"ti. [25] 26. "Lady, does the underlying tendency to lust (raga-anusayo) underlie all pleasant feeling? Does the underlying tendency to aversion (pa.tigha-anusayo) underlie all painful feeling? Does the underlying tendency to ignorance (avijja-anusayo) underlie all neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling?" “Friend Visaakha, the underlying tendency to lust does not underlie all pleasant feeling. The underlying tendency to aversion does not underlie all painful feeling. The underlying tendency to ignorance does not underlie all neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling.†--------------------- [26] "Sukhaaya panaayye, vedanaaya ki.m pahaatabba.m, dukkhaaya vedanaaya ki.m pahaatabba.m, adukkhamasukhaaya vedanaaya ki.m pahaatabba"nti? "Sukhaaya kho, aavuso visaakha, vedanaaya raagaanusayo pahaatabbo, dukkhaaya vedanaaya pa.tighaanusayo pahaatabbo, adukkhamasukhaaya vedanaaya avijjaanusayo pahaatabbo"ti. [26] 27. "Lady, what should be abandoned in regard to pleasant feeling? What should be abandoned in regard to painful feeling? What should be abandoned in regard to neither-painful-norpleasant feeling?" "Friend Visaakha, the underlying tendency to lust should be abandoned in regard to pleasant feeling (sukhaaya vedanaaya raga-anusayo pahaatabbo). The underlying tendency to aversion should be abandoned in regard to painful feeling (dukkhaaya vedanaaya pa.tigha-anusayo pahaatabbo). The underlying tendency to ignorance should be abandoned in regard to neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling (adukkhamasukhaaya vedanaaya avijja-anusayo pahaatabbo)." --------------------- [27] "Sabbaaya nu kho, ayye, sukhaaya vedanaaya raagaanusayo pahaatabbo, sabbaaya dukkhaaya vedanaaya pa.tighaanusayo pahaatabbo, sabbaaya adukkhamasukhaaya vedanaaya avijjaanusayo pahaatabbo"ti? "Na kho, aavuso visaakha, sabbaaya sukhaaya vedanaaya raagaanusayo pahaatabbo, na sabbaaya dukkhaaya vedanaaya pa.tighaanusayo pahaatabbo, na sabbaaya adukkhamasukhaaya vedanaaya avijjaanusayo pahaatabbo. Idhaavuso visaakha, bhikkhu vivicceva kaamehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakka.m savicaara.m vivekaja.m piitisukha.m pa.thama.m jhaana.m upasampajja viharati. Raaga.m tena pajahati, na tattha raagaanusayo anuseti. Idhaavuso visaakha, bhikkhu iti pa.tisa~ncikkhati 'kudaassu naamaaha.m tadaayatana.m upasampajja viharissaami yadariyaa etarahi aayatana.m upasampajja viharantii'ti? Iti anuttaresu vimokkhesu piha.m upa.t.thaapayato uppajjati pihaappaccayaa domanassa.m. Pa.tigha.m tena pajahati, na tattha pa.tighaanusayo anuseti. Idhaavuso visaakha, bhikkhu sukhassa ca pahaanaa, dukkhassa ca pahaanaa, pubbeva somanassadomanassaana.m attha"ngamaa, adukkhamasukha.m upekkhaasatipaarisuddhi.m catuttha.m jhaana.m upasampajja viharati. Avijja.m tena pajahati, na tattha avijjaanusayo anusetii"ti. [27] 28. "Lady, does the underlying tendency to lust have to be abandoned in regard to all pleasant feeling? Does the underlying tendency to aversion have to be abandoned in regard to all painful feeling? Does the underlying tendency to ignorance have to be abandoned in regard to all neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling?" "Friend Visaakha, the underlying tendency to lust does not have to be abandoned in regard to all pleasant feeling. The underlying tendency to aversion does not have to be abandoned in regard to all painful feeling. The underlying tendency to ignorance does not have to be abandoned in regard to all neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling. "Here, friend Visakha, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. With that he abandons lust, and the underlying tendency to lust does not underlie that (Raaga.m tena pajahati, na tattha raagaanusayo anuseti). [Note 474] [Note 474] MA explains that the bhikkhu suppresses the tendency to lust and attains the first jhaana. Having made the tendency to lust well suppressed by the jhaana, he develops insight and eradicates the tendency to lust by the path of the non-returner. But because it has been suppressed by the jhaana, it is said "the underlying tendency to lust does not underlie that." "Here a bhikkhu considers thus: ‘When shall I enter upon and abide in that base that the noble ones now enter upon and abide in?’ In one who thus generates a longing for the supreme liberations, grief arises with that longing as condition. With that he abandons aversion, and the underlying tendency to aversion does not underlie that (Pa.tigha.m tena pajahati, na tattha pa.tighaanusayo anuseti). [Note 475] [Note 475] MA identifies "that base" (tadaayatana), as well as "the supreme liberations", with arahantship. The grief that arises because of that longing is elsewhere called "the grief based on renunciation" (MN 137.13). MA explains that one does not actually abandon the tendency to aversion by means of that grief; rather, spurred on by the longing for the supreme liberations, one takes up the practice with firm determination and eradicates the tendency to aversion by attaining the path of the non-returner. "Here, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous disappearance of joy and grief, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the fourth jhana, which has neither-painnor-pleasure and purity of mindfulness due to equanimity. With that he abandons ignorance, and the underlying tendency to ignorance does not underlie that (Avijja.m tena pajahati, na tattha avijjaanusayo anuseti)."[Note 476] [Note 476] MA: The bhikkhu suppresses the tendency to ignorance with the fourth jhaana, makes it well suppressed, and then eradicates the tendency to ignorance by attaining the path of arahantship. --------------- Han: I am interested in the underlying tendency to lust that does not have to be abandoned in regard to all pleasant feeling; the underlying tendency to aversion that does not have to be abandoned in regard to all painful feeling; and the underlying tendency to ignorance that does not have to be abandoned in regard to all neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling. Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi stated that with regard to "the grief based on renunciation", in MN 137, MA explains that one does not actually abandon the tendency to aversion by means of that grief; rather, spurred on by the longing for the supreme liberations, one takes up the practice with firm determination and eradicates the tendency to aversion by attaining the path of the non-returner. So, I will look at that sutta and come back to you in my next post. To be continued. with metta, Han #126666 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:33 pm Subject: Re: Dhs ptaus1 Hi Sarah and all, Thank you all for your replies on the triplets 8 and 9. One more thing, would it be right to conclude that eradication here is referring to dhammas other than roots, so not roots themselves? It's a bit confusing - Rhys Davids translates triplet 9 as: 9. States the moral roots of which are to be put away by vision; culture; by neither. So, it seems the emphasis here is on eradication of roots. And yet, if I'm not mistaken, I don't think any of the roots are actually eradicated by sotapatti magga ("vision" in her translation). Unless perhaps there are different sorts of moha for example, so with sotapatti magga, the kinds of moha that accompany wrong view and doubt are eradicated, but other kinds of moha (those that accompany other higher fetters) are not yet eradicated? > S: In other words, I'm suggesting that this might refer to the same dhammaa as in 8 iii minus all sobhana cittas which are hetukaa dhammaa. pt: So, I guess then the only point of triplet 9 is to draw attention to the fact that the fetters have roots? Best wishes pt #126667 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:53 pm Subject: Concepts and perception ptaus1 Hi all, It's been mentioned recently that concepts do not accumulate. Hence, such things as scientific knowledge, languages, etc, are forgotten on death. So, if there's a predisposition for maths or languages (some are clearly better at it than others), then what's that based on? Perception (sanna), however, should accumulate as it's a cetasika. I'm confused on the relationship between sanna and concepts, and in particular, marking that sanna does, and concepts. Somehow in my head, marking should be based on concepts. Is it, really? And do the "marks" accumulate (or should it be "marking", not "marks")? Er, for that matter, I have no clue how to understand "marks/marking" really. Yes, there's the simile of a carpenter that marks different pieces of wood, but I don't really get it. Further, sanna as a cetasika should also be right and wrong when it's arising with javana cittas, right? But, when it is arising with other cittas like vipaka cittas and bhavanga cittas, is it "neutral" somehow? Thanks. Best wishes pt #126668 From: sprlrt@... Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta sprlrt Dear Han, Sarah, Thanks Han, I've found your reminder on the ten fetters (sa.myojanaa) and the seven tendencies (anusayaa), and the order in which the four lokuttara maggas eradicate them very helpful. In this (cuu.lavedalla) sutta I've also found helpful that even an householder, a wealthy merchant like Visaakha, without having to resort to a secluded place like a forest or an empty hut, could attain jhaana. I think it shows the superior quality of the dhammas involved in vipassana than those involved in samatha, and that the level of pa~n~naa conditioning the arising of anaagami magga also conditions samaadhi to the level of upacaara and appana samadhi (i.e. of jhaanaa), even in the case of lay people like Visaakha, who couldn't and weren't developing samatha at all and who previously to anaagami magga could and were only having the momentary (kha.nika) samaadhi of bare vipassana. Superiority which is found in tipitaka also in the classification of paramattha dhammas as paritta (kaamaavacara), mahaggata (ruupa and aruupaavacara) and appamaa.na (lokuttara); small, great and immeasurable realities. Alberto Han wrote: > > There are ten Sa.myojanas. > > Abandoned by Sotaapanna > (1) ditthisa.myojana > (2) vicikicchasa.myojana > (3) siilabbataparaamaa sasa.myojana > (4) issaasa.myojana > (5) macchariyasa.myojana > > Abandoned by Anaagaami > (6) kaamaraagasa.myojana > (7) pa.tighasa.myojana > > Abandoned by Arahant > (8) bhavaraagasa.myojana > (9) maanasa.myojana > (10) avijjaasa.myojana > > Sa.myojanas (6) to (10) are Uddambhaagiya-sa.myojanas. .... > There are seven Anusayas. > > Abandoned by Sotaapanna > (1) di.t.thaanusaya > (2) vicikicchaanusaya > > Abandoned by Anaagaami > (3) kaamaraagaanusaya > (4) pa.tighaanusaya > > Abandoned by Arahant > (5) bhavaraagaanusaya > (6) maanaanusaya > (7) avijjaanusaya > > Anusayas (3) to (7) correspond to Uddambhaagiya-sa.myojanas. ... #126669 From: han tun Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta hantun1 Dear Alberto (and Sarah), Alberto: In this (cuu.lavedalla) sutta I've also found helpful that even an householder, a wealthy merchant like Visaakha, without having to resort to a secluded place like a forest or an empty hut, could attain jhaana. I think it shows the superior quality of the dhammas involved in vipassana than those involved in samatha, and that the level of pa~n~naa conditioning the arising of anaagami magga also conditions samaadhi to the level of upacaara and appana samadhi (i.e. of jhaanaa), even in the case of lay people like Visaakha, who couldn't and weren't developing samatha at all and who previously to anaagami magga could and were only having the momentary (kha.nika) samaadhi of bare vipassana. --------------- Han: I like your above comments, and I have noted them with many thanks. with metta and respect, Han #126670 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:03 pm Subject: more Poland audio sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Amazingly, more Poland audio uploaded. It's been like a sick ward here in Hong Kong and this has given up some time. Also, this time we're making the first edit a "minimalist edit" and uploading in this format. Down the track we hope to do a more "perfectionist edit", but given the good quality of the recordings and discussions, this is quite good enough for now. Metta Sarah p.s Nina, had a nice beach outing with Jessica this morning - dhamma discussions and catching-up on Poland and other news. ===== #126671 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:56 pm Subject: the sea of concepts no 8 nilovg Dear friends, The sea of concepts, no 8. Dreaming: When dreaming we remember what appeared and contacted the eyesense. We do not actually see visible object. We remember that this is a mountain, a river. We dream about stories. At this moment something appears and we do not dream. But we think of a story on account of what appeared, such as, it is this or that person, he is doing something. During our dream it is the same. We “see” because we remember. We do not understand the characteristic of what appears. There are images and stories because citta thinks. We are in the world of thinking about what appears and falls away very rapidly. There is nothing left, except the sign, the nimitta, of what appeared. This is a sign or mark so that we remember that there is a person or an animal. Even as in a dream. What appears hrough the eyes lasts only seventeen moments of citta. It arose already and fell away already. Only the sign or nimitta remains. ******* Nina #126672 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts and perception upasaka_howard Hi, pt - In a message dated 9/23/2012 7:53:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ptaus1@... writes: Hi all, It's been mentioned recently that concepts do not accumulate. Hence, such things as scientific knowledge, languages, etc, are forgotten on death. So, if there's a predisposition for maths or languages (some are clearly better at it than others), then what's that based on? Perception (sanna), however, should accumulate as it's a cetasika. I'm confused on the relationship between sanna and concepts, and in particular, marking that sanna does, and concepts. Somehow in my head, marking should be based on concepts. Is it, really? And do the "marks" accumulate (or should it be "marking", not "marks")? Er, for that matter, I have no clue how to understand "marks/marking" really. Yes, there's the simile of a carpenter that marks different pieces of wood, but I don't really get it. Further, sanna as a cetasika should also be right and wrong when it's arising with javana cittas, right? But, when it is arising with other cittas like vipaka cittas and bhavanga cittas, is it "neutral" somehow? Thanks. Best wishes pt =============================== People DO remember "stories" of past lives. Key example: The Buddha did. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #126673 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Poland 10 sarahprocter... Hi Alex, > From: truth_aerator >>S:K.Sujin told Lukas about a guy in Bkk who has listened to her for >years, but regularly needs to go to a hospital for addiction >treatment. Forget if I mentioned that. Whatever way life goes, right >understanding always the most useful. >>=================================================== > >Is this purely physical addiction? Or is it mental addiction? >I hope he fully recovers soon. ... S: As I understood her at the time, she mentioned there were a couple of guys who had a drug addiction from birth and needed to regularly go on a de-tox in hospital with no radio, no anything. She stressed that they were very interested in the Dhamma and had listened for sometime. Later she referred to just one guy, so not sure if it was one or two or more. The point was just that we all have 'issues' and all need to seek medical/other assistance as called for. Just ordinary, daily life - conditioned dhammas that can be known anytime, anywhere. To think that because there's some understanding of the Dhamma one doesn't need to take care of one's health would be very unfortunate. Metta Sarah p.s Have you listened to any of the recordings, Alex? I'd be interested to hear your comments on any of it. ===== #126674 From: Ken O Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhs ashkenn2k Dear pt Expositor pg 461 <> KC: perplexity arise with delusion as a root condition. When perplexity is removed by sotapanna, the root condition of delusion that arise with perplexity is also removed. this is similiar to greed that arise with wrong views. All the other four greed root cittas that arise with wrong views are also eliminated by sotapanna. This is the meaning of having root-conditions removable by insight. KC #126675 From: Ken O Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 12 ashkenn2k Dear Howard >This is as I see it, with the disclaimer that, interspersed, are also >many moments of atta-based craving and aversion. Even during periods of >what seem to be (and largely are) periods of wholesome activity and mentality, >our defilements do arise. (I see this not as a pessimistic view but as a >realistic one.) K: Yes you are right to say that in development there will be many interspersed may moments of akusala dhamma. I wish to explain to Phil that to think of a result or a desiring is not necessary all aksuala. The intention is important. Just like doing meditation is not wrong if the intention follows the teachings in developing meditation. Similar to the ten volition, intentions are important in determining whether it is kusala or akusala. Cheers KC #126676 From: Ken O Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta ashkenn2k Dear Alberto We cannot said just compare the quality of vipassana and samantha (which are basis of insight) in that way. Vipassana and samatha are two methods that are described in the texts. There is comparison between the quality of concentration and understanding but not the two methods of insight and tranquility. Also other will claim the quality of samadhi is better for samantha method because the highest form of jhanas (nirodhi sampatti) could only attain by those who practise jhanas till neither perception and non-perception stage, and they also non-returners or Arahants. This nirodhi sampatti cannot be attained by dry insightors thanks KC >Dear Alberto (and Sarah), > >Alberto: In this (cuu.lavedalla) sutta I've also found helpful that even an householder, a wealthy merchant like Visaakha, without having to resort to a secluded place like a forest or an empty hut, could attain jhaana. > >I think it shows the superior quality of the dhammas involved in vipassana than those involved in samatha, and that the level of pa~n~naa conditioning the arising of anaagami magga also conditions samaadhi to the level of upacaara and appana samadhi (i.e. of jhaanaa), even in the case of lay people like Visaakha, who couldn't and weren't developing samatha at all and who previously to anaagami magga could and were only having the momentary (kha.nika) samaadhi of bare vipassana. > >--------------- > >Han: I like your above comments, and I have noted them with many thanks. > >with metta and respect, >Han #126677 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:33 am Subject: Re: Concepts and perception kenhowardau Hi Pt, ----------- > Pt: It's been mentioned recently that concepts do not accumulate. Hence, such things as scientific knowledge, languages, etc, are forgotten on death. So, if there's a predisposition for maths or languages (some are clearly better at it than others), then what's that based on? ------------ KH: Ultimately, there is no maths, and so, ultimately, no predispositions for maths. There can be concepts of those things, and they can be explained by other concepts – e.g., by genetic inheritance or by previous lifetimes as mathematicians – but not by conditionality. ---------------- > Pt: Perception (sanna), however, should accumulate as it's a cetasika. I'm confused on the relationship between sanna and concepts, and in particular, marking that sanna does, and concepts. Somehow in my head, marking should be based on concepts. Is it, really? < snip> ---------------- KH: Out of my league now, I look forward to reading answers to those questions. Ken H #126678 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 12 kenhowardau Hi Ken O, Phil and Howard, ---- <. . .> > KO: I wish to explain to Phil that to think of a result or a desiring is not necessary all aksuala. The intention is important. Just like doing meditation is not wrong if the intention follows the teachings in developing meditation. Similar to the ten volition, intentions are important in determining whether it is kusala or akusala. --- KH: Excuse my butting in, but I can't wait for Phil to ask. You say that doing meditation (having a belief in control over dhammas) is not wrong if the intention is to follow the teaching (of no control over dhammas). (!) How can that be? Ken H #126679 From: Ken O Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 12 ashkenn2k Dear Ken H I leave it to your statement "You say that doing meditation (having a belief in control over dhammas) is not wrong if the intention is to follow the teaching (of no control over dhammas). (!) " This is not how I interpret the dhamma. Sorry, I do not wish to discuss this. Thank you KC #126680 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 12 truth_aerator Hello KenH, >KH: Excuse my butting in, but I can't wait for Phil to ask. You say >that doing meditation (having a belief in control over dhammas) is not >wrong if the intention is to follow the teaching (of no control over >dhammas). (!) >======================== Does panna (or sati) cetasika control the kusala effects of it? With best wishes, Alex #126681 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 12 kenhowardau Hi Ken O, ------------ <. . .> > KO: This is not how I interpret the dhamma. Sorry, I do not wish to discuss this. Thank you ----------- KH: No need to apologise, Ken, I think the way we are discussing (without having a discussions) is working quite well. When someone gives an interpretation of the Dhamma and states that he does not wish to discuss it, other people can still state their objections to that interpretation. Further discussion is not essential; the two interpretations, and the differences between them, have at least been made clear. Ken H #126682 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Poland 12 kenhowardau Hi Alex, ----- <. . .> >> KH: You say that doing meditation (having a belief in control over dhammas) is not wrong if the intention is to follow the teaching (of no control over dhammas). (!) > A: Does panna (or sati) cetasika control the kusala effects of it? ----- KH: No, not according to my understanding. When there is a belief in control over dhammas (when here is a convention facsimile of vipassana) there is no panna or sati, and the effects are always akusala – rooted in ignorance. Ken H #126683 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:41 pm Subject: Sri Lanka revisited, Ch 2, no 5 nilovg Dear friends, Bhante Dhammadharo spoke about respectful behaviour of laypeople when they are in the company of monks and when they are listening to the Dhamma. We laypeople were traveling around all the time in the company of the group of foreign monks who had come from Thailand and during such a journey one may forget to be respectful to monks at all times. One may forget to let them always go ahead and not to speak casually to them in the same way as one speaks to friends. Bhante Dhammadharo reminded us not to interrupt monks when they were speaking. I found this reminder most helpful. If someone else does not remind us of the fact that we are interrupting others we may never realize this. Such a reminder can prompt us to find out what kind of citta motivates us to interrupt others. Often we are so attached to our point of view we want to bring up in the conversation that we cannot wait until someone else has finished speaking. We become impatient and then there is aversion. When we see the value of respecting the other person instead of finding only ourselves important, there are conditions for refraining from interrupting someone else; instead we can wait with kusala citta, with mettå and patience, until he has finished speaking. Jonothan, the Australian layman who attended to the monks during this journey, remarked to me that one should not only refrain from interrupting when monks are speaking to us, but also when friends speak to us. Why should we be impolite to friends? This made me see all the more the value of restraint from interrupting, no matter with whom one is. When we do not interrupt others we are more able to listen to them and we shall understand them more. We shall understand the motives that make them speak and we shall understand their problems. We all have weak points and we may not notice them. When someone tells us, for example, that we are interrupting others, it reminds us to consider more our different cittas, whereas before, we may have been forgetful at such moments. All aspects of the Dhamma can help us to develop right understanding in daily life. When one develops satipatthåna one should not neglect other ways of kusala. When someone tells us what is wrong with us he renders us a service. He finds something for us that is as hard to find as a hidden treasure. We read in the “Dhammapada” (vs. 76): “Should one see a wise man, who, like a revealer of treasures, points out faults and reproves, let one associate with such a wise person; it will be better, not worse, for him who associates with such a one.” We can say that such a person actually hands us a treasure. The good friend in Dhamma not only helps us to develop satipatthåna, he also points out our faults to us. ----------- Nina #126684 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:41 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The last words for Poland, part 2 sarahprocter... Dear Jagkrit, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" wrote: > Ann: > >Seems that she is saying that if we try to "have" goodness it is like trying to have kusala, be it sati, panna or other kusala. And this is wrong understanding - very subtle - as there is no one to "have" or "do". Makes sense. We understand that when we "try" to have understanding - it is lobha that wants it. So, the same for any kusala. > > ... > > S: Yes, an important point. If there's any trying to be a good person, wanting to have metta, panna or anything else....it's all wrong again, all clinging to self once more. > ============= > > JJ: Is this collateral damages? When one tries to eradicate kilasa with self, one kilasa's gone but another comes. ... S: So just more kilesa (defilements) accumulated, nothing good at all. ... > > Understanding now - the middle path. > > ====== > > JJ: Understanding dhammas is the only clear cut with panna along the way. .... S: Yes, otherwise there is always the taking for kusala what is actually akusala. Thank you again for all your very helpful assistance with the arrangements for the discussions in Poland and for your keen participation at all of these. Much appreciated. We were impressed by Dream's interest as well. Hope your wife has a chance to listen to some of the audio with you. Metta Sarah ===== #126685 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:54 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (12) aarammana (object of citta, cont'd.) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo (& Phil), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > >H: Light is also ruupa. The word light itself is pa~n~natti. , > > > > Sound hurt ears when decible is high. But sound is not pathavii or earth-element > >P: Thank you for the clear explanation. ... S: Are you sure sound can hurt? At the moment of hearing sound, whatever sound it is, the feeling is neutral and there is no bodily feeling at all. The other cittas is that ear-door process also experience that same sound rupa, no painful bodily experience at all, though there may be dosa arising in the javana process. Even though it seems that it is the sound which hurts, in fact there are other bodily experiences through body-sense when tangible object, such as hardness, is experienced. This will either be experienced with painful or pleasurable bodily feeling. Cittas are so very brief - it seems that visible object/light or sound are experienced for a long time. In fact, just very brief moments of vipaka cittas experiencing visible object, sound or tangible object, followed by many mind-door processes, thinking about what was experienced through the senses. Metta Sarah ===== #126686 From: sprlrt@... Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:46 pm Subject: Re: Concepts and perception sprlrt Hi pt, Alex, Howard, > It's been mentioned recently that concepts do not accumulate. Hence, > such things as scientific knowledge, languages, etc, are forgotten on > death. So, if there's a predisposition for maths or languages (some > are clearly better at it than others), then what's that based on? I think that what we refer to as one's predispositions etc. are due to past conditions like kamma. > Perception (sanna), however, should accumulate as it's a cetasika. > I'm confused on the relationship between sanna and concepts, and in > particular, marking that sanna does, and concepts. Somehow in my > head, marking should be based on concepts. Is it, really? I think it's sankhara khandha (formations) that accumulates, not sa~n~na khandha. > And do the "marks" accumulate (or should it be "marking", not > "marks")? Er, for that matter, I have no clue how to understand > "marks/marking" really. Yes, there's the simile of a carpenter that > marks different pieces of wood, but I don't really get it. Neither do I, but I do remember the simile of the crow that mistakes a scarecrow for a person and gets scared (it's in visuddhimagga as well); sa~n~naa vipallaasa, distorsions, like atta-sa~n~naa, niccasa~n~naa, and sukhasa~n~naa, memory of self, of lastingness and of pleasantness. > Further, sanna as a cetasika should also be right and wrong when it's > arising with javana cittas, right? But, when it is arising with other > cittas like vipaka cittas and bhavanga cittas, is it "neutral" > somehow? Thanks. Sa~n~na arises with all cittas, kusala (wholesome), akusala (unwholesome), vipaaka (resultants, like bhavanga), and kiriya (functional). I think 'neutral' refers to vedana khandha. Alberto #126687 From: sprlrt@... Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta sprlrt Dear Ken O, I personally have no doubts that stating the superiority of vipassana over samatha is according to the Buddha's teaching, samatha alone can't penetrate the four noble truths, while vipassana alone can. I also think that there is much misunderstanding about this two words. I also think that samatha requires much more accumulated kusala to show up as upacaara or appana (samma) samaadhi, while (samma) samaadhi in vipassana is only momentary, unexpected; and I don't see how sitting wanting hard and expecting to have kusala can actually enhance kusala. Alberto > We cannot said just compare the quality of vipassana and samantha > (which are basis of insight) in that way. Vipassana and samatha are > two methods that are described in the texts. There is comparison > between the quality of concentration and understanding but not the > two methods of insight and tranquility. > > Also other will claim the quality of samadhi is better for samantha > method because the highest form of jhanas (nirodhi sampatti) could > only attain by those who practise jhanas till neither perception and > non-perception stage, and they also non-returners or Arahants. This > nirodhi sampatti cannot be attained by dry insightors #126688 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:48 pm Subject: Poland 2, the real comfort. nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 23-sep-2012, om 15:03 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: It's been like a sick ward here in Hong Kong ------ N: Yes, like here too. Thank you for uploading. I highlight some points. Poland 2. We eat and sleep and we have attachment. Seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, experiencing tangible object and attachment, not knowing anything. Everyone has to die, sooner or later, with ignorance or with some understanding. Understanding, be it little or much, is the right understanding of whatever appears in one’s life. One should not just live without any understanding. If someone studies the teachings which talk about the truth of every moment and everything, one learns to know and understand. Then there are no expectations of what you want to lessen (of the defilements), just understand. For example, there is seeing now, should we not understand seeing? There is thinking now, should we not understand thinking? Visible object appears, do we know enough about it? Or do we not know yet what appears as it is? Whenever pa~n~naa, right understanding arises, painful feeling, agitation, worry, unpleasant realities can be known as not self, as very temporary. This can cure more than any words. Words can give comfort, but actually, they do not, because it is not the truth. When one understands the truth, one knows that life is conditioned and that it changes. We do not know what the next moment will be. Let it come with right understanding and you will see that everything keeps on changing. Q. Is it good to learn about conditions and realities? Sujin: Yes. It helps to really understand, otherwise there will be pain, sorrow and one wonders why life is like this. Seeing is seeing, hearing is hearing, no matter where, when and for whom. ********* N: I found especially helpful that words are not real comfort, but, understanding the truth of realities is. ------ Nina. #126689 From: han tun Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:29 pm Subject: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (8) (b) hantun1 Dear Friends, In my last post, I had mentioned that I am interested in the underlying tendency to lust that does not have to be abandoned in regard to all pleasant feeling; the underlying tendency to aversion that does not have to be abandoned in regard to all painful feeling; and the underlying tendency to ignorance that does not have to be abandoned in regard to all neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling. And as Bhikkhu Bodhi had made reference to MN 137, I am now looking at that sutta. -------------------- MN 137 Sa.laayatanavibhanga Sutta is the Exposition of the Sixfold Base. The Buddha expounds the six internal and external sense bases and other related topics. I do not find much about latent tendencies, but I find some useful information about (i) six kinds of joy based on the household life (gehasita somanassa), (ii) six kinds of joy based on renunciation (nekkhammasita somanassa), (iii) six kinds of grief based on the household life (gehasita domanassa), (iv) six kinds of grief based on renunciation (nekkhammasita domanassa), (v) six kinds of equanimity based on the household life (gehasita upekkhaa), (vi) six kinds of equanimity based on renunciation (nekkhammasita upekkhaa). They are like the three pairs of vedanaa that I find in MN 10 Satipa.t.thaana Sutta: worldly pleasant feeling (saamisa sukha vedanaa), unworldly pleasant feeling (niraamisa sukha vedanaa), etc. However, one interesting feature that I find is the following passage in MN 44.28 as well as in MN 137.13. ---------- "kudaassu naamaaha.m tadaayatana.m upasampajja viharissaami yadariyaa etarahi aayatana.m upasampajja viharantii"ti? Iti anuttaresu vimokkhesu piha.m upa.t.thaapayato uppajjati pihaappaccayaa domanassa.m. "When shall I enter upon and abide in that base that the noble ones now enter upon and abide in?" In one who generates thus a longing for the supreme liberations, grief arises with that longing as condition. ---------- Han: This is the kind of grief (domanassa) that arises in a monk who wanted to become an Arahant, and who tried very hard to achieve it, but still could not attain it. For me, I cannot aim for Arahantship. But if I had wanted to become a Sotaapanna in this very life, and if I tried very hard for that, and yet if I could not attain it, and if I cried for that failure, then my tears would be an indication of grief based on longing for liberation as condition (vimokkhesu pihaappaccayaa domanassa). On more simple terms, if a young man is crying with grief because his parents do not allow him to become a bhikkhu, or if a young woman is crying with grief because her parents do not allow her to become a nun, this kind of grief based on renunciation (nekkhammasita domanassa) need not be abandoned. To be continued. with metta, Han #126690 From: "philip" Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:45 pm Subject: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (18) (the luminous citta) philofillet Dear Group Pt. II of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket continued: "In the Dhammasanganani, the citta is called 'pure' or 'luminous' (pandara), and according to the Atthasaalini this refers to the life-continuum,bhavanga citta. The Atthasaalini (The Expositor, Book U, Part IV, Ch. II, 140) states, "Mind also is said to be 'clear' in the sense of 'exceedingly pure' with reference to the bhavanga-citta." The citta is pure only at the moment it does not experience an object through the doors of the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense or mind. Everybody who is fast asleep looks innocent, pure; he doesn not experience like or dislike, he is not jealous, stingy, conceited. He has no loving kindness or compassions; thus, unwholesome or wholesome qualities do not arise because he does not see , hear, experience tangible object or think. However, it should be known that whenever the citta that arises experiences an object through one of the six doors, citta is bound to be involved in it and hence it is not pure. Many different defilements have been accumulated in the citta and these condition the arising of pleasure and attachment when one sees something pleasasnt, and the arising of displeasure and annoyance when one sees something unpleasant." (56) (end of passage) ph: needless to say pop Dhamma books latch on to this "luminous mind" - so attractive, who wouldn't want to have it? But we have Abhidhamma and commentary to keep us from error on this point. phil p.s thanks for your reply to several posts, Sarah. #126691 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:10 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The last words for Poland, part 2 jagkrit2012 Dear Sarah Thank you for your additional explanation. I also learn a lot from you in Poland and in DSG. Anumodhana Jagkrit #126692 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:17 pm Subject: "Why and how?" - no understanding of any reality. sarahprocter... Dear Friends, More audio uploaded - a chat in the square of Olszytn followed by an afternoon discussion back in our hotel conference room on 11th Sept. === Here's a discussion extract I found interesting from the afternoon discussion because of it being such a good example of how K.Sujin brings the Abhidhamma back to this very moment, no matter the question. Dream, Jagkrit's daughter, had been studying from Abhidhamma in Daily Life in preparation for the discussions and I encouraged her to ask any questions. **** D: I have another question about patisandhi citta. From what I read there are 8 patisandhi cittas such as sasankharika, asankharika. People are born, some are disabled, they can't hear, another kind are the kind that have panna. And starting from no panna, how can they step up to have more panna and I'm confused about vipaka cittas. If they must have good vipaka to have more panna but how can it start if you don't really have good vipaka from the very beginning? ***** [S: At this point, it was on the tip of my tongue to come in with a technical explanation about roots, vipaka cittas, accumulated panna and so on, but K.Sujin, with her usual skills, brings the question right back to this very moment] **** KS: Can you experience those cittas? (pause) KS: What can you know now? Can you know seeing? Understand seeing as just a reality which sees, not that which hears. Otherwise, if there is no understanding of reality right now, it's only thinking, speculation, about other moments. 'Why and how?', but no understanding of any reality. It's still you who thinks about this. If one cannot understand this moment, one cannot understand other moments in the past and the future. For example, you said 'vipaka', right? Is there vipaka now? How come to have vipaka now if no birth at all? See? What was born - you or what? D: Citta? KS: Reality, right? But there are so many realities, so we learn to know what type, what kind of that which was born and what are the conditions for the arising of that citta. D: So you're saying it doesn't matter - anything else, just stay with the reality is good enough? KS: I think we talk about many things but do we really know what we are talking about? Like we talk about the wisdom of the enlightened one. How can we know? How great wisdom is that? See. But if we begin to understand reality from hearing, considering more and more of the words of the Teachings, we know about the greatness of the wisdom of the Buddha. Otherwise it's only thinking about 'Oh, the highest one, the Greatest one', but why does one say so when one doesn't know anything at all about his words? ***** S:There are many similar discussions...always back to the reality, the understanding now, no matter what is read or heard. This was the message for us all. Metta Sarah ===== #126693 From: Ken O Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta ashkenn2k Dear Alberto In the text, there was never a comparision of vipassana bhavana and samatha bhavana. Abhidhamma texts, commentaries and Visud pointed to two bhavanas and did not compare one over the other. I have yet met a text that say vipassana is superior to samatha bhavana. Also there are many examples of samantha bhavana in the text especially Visud and in Satipatthana. Whether how one believe in interpreting the text, is up to the individual. I have no doubt whether it is vipassana or samatha bhavana, as long as it leads to Nibbana as describe in the texts, they are wise ways to follow, and not just because it is more superior. To be a Buddha, the person must have mastery over the jhanas in order to investigate the paramis. Is that more superior? Thanks KC #126694 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:31 am Subject: Ajivika view truth_aerator Hello KenH, all, >A: Does panna (or sati) cetasika control the kusala effects of it? >KH: No, not according to my understanding. >>>>============== So what is the point in having panna if it doesn't control its kusala effects? Are you teaching Acausality? I was reading Jataka stories today and they mentioned such teaching, it is called Ajivaka. We can't and shouldn't do anything... Good deeds are waste of time... We are all fated (read: conditions) to wander in Samsara until certain time elapses... With best wishes, Alex #126695 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:43 am Subject: Re: Ajivika view kenhowardau Hi Alex, ---- <. . .> > A: So what is the point in having panna if it doesn't control its kusala effects? > > Are you teaching Acausality? > > I was reading Jataka stories today and they mentioned such teaching, it is called Ajivaka. We can't and shouldn't do anything... Good deeds are waste of time... We are all fated (read: conditions) to wander in Samsara until certain time elapses... ---- KH: I'm sorry Alex, I don't follow you. Who or what are the "we all" that are "fated to wander in samsara"? Are you still promoting Thanissaro's heterodoxy in the hope of gaining ordination at Wat Metta? If you are not, then why can't you admit that the "we all" refers to momentary, conditioned dhammas, and not to a permanent self that can "do" or "not do" things? Ken H #126696 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:18 am Subject: Re: Ajivika view truth_aerator Hi KenH, >A: So what is the point in having panna if it doesn't control its >kusala effects? > > > > Are you teaching Acausality? > ---- > KH: I'm sorry Alex, I don't follow you. Who or what are the "we >all" that are "fated to wander in samsara"? >>>>>>>>>>>>> What you call momentary, conditioned dhammas. Effort is part of the path. Again, are you claiming that panna is powerless to condition its effects? Are you saying that effort is fruitless? Then it seems to be like Ajivika teaching. With best wishes, Alex #126697 From: "philip" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:03 am Subject: Re: Ajivika view philofillet Hi Ken Surely you don't deny the efficacy of kusala? Pannna when it arises and the other kusala cetasikas it arises with (including kusala energy/effort, the cetasika virya) condition the arising of more kusala. And one of those kusala factors is khanti/patience, which if I remember correctly is the cetasika virya. We understand how gradual this process is, but correct understanding moves us (and fair enough to say "us" as shorthand to refer to dhammas) in the right direction, towards liberation. Poor TB - he is an advocate of deepening entanglement in the self, deeper and deeper into samsara he leads his unwitting vuctims, through no ill intent, of course, just the greed and ignorance "we" are all subject to in varying degrees, due to conditions. Some of us have come to understand that only panna and orger kusala factors including virya and the **alobha** that must accompany all kusala can lead out. "Effort" devoid of understanding and the other co-arisen kusala factors including alobha (which must arise with all kusala) leads in the wrong direction, deeper into samsara. Pretty basic. But undwrstanding and patience don't arise when we want (greed) them to. That's the catch. Phil #126698 From: "philip" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:02 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (18) (the luminous citta) philofillet Dear group. I missed a footnote when I posted this section. I will post again, with the footnote below. > "In the Dhammasanganani, the citta is called 'pure' or 'luminous' (pandara), and according to the Atthasaalini this refers to the life-continuum,bhavanga citta. The Atthasaalini (The Expositor, Book U, Part IV, Ch. II, 140) states, "Mind also is said to be 'clear' in the sense of 'exceedingly pure' with reference to the bhavanga-citta." The citta is pure only at the moment it does not experience an object through the doors of the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense or mind. Everybody who is fast asleep looks innocent, pure; he doesn not experience like or dislike, he is not jealous, stingy, conceited. He has no loving kindness or compassions; thus, unwholesome or wholesome qualities do not arise because he does not see , hear, experience tangible object or think. > However, it should be known that whenever the citta that arises experiences an object through one of the six doors, citta is bound to be involved in it and hence it is not pure. Many different defilements have been accumulated in the citta and these condition the arising of pleasure and attachment when one sees something pleasasnt, and the arising of displeasure and annoyance when one sees something unpleasant." (footnote 6) (56) > Footnote: In the texts, different aspects of citta have been given. In some texts each citta is called 'pure' or 'pandarama.' We read in the commentary to the Path of Discrimination, the Saddhammapakaasini, regarding the Treatise on Breathing, in section 4, "What are the Thirty-Two Kinds of Knowledge in Mindful Workers, "that each citta, even akusala citta, can be called 'pandaram.' THe characteristic of citta is experiencing an object, and that it is not defiled by upakilesas (accompanying akusala cetasikas), hence citta is by nature (sabhava) pure. When it is accompanied by upakilesas, which defile it, it is still called 'panaram' (pure.) (end of footnote) Phil #126699 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:29 pm Subject: Re: Ajivika view kenhowardau Hi Phil and Alex, ---- > Ph: Surely you don't deny the efficacy of kusala? ---- KH: This discussion began when I questioned Ken O's assertion that formal meditation was `not wrong if there was an intention to follow the teaching.' Alex joined in and suggested that panna could make wrong practice right. My reply to Alex was that panna could not arise with wrong practice, and so his suggestion did not apply. My reply was in turn been construed as somehow denying the efficacy of kusala. I don't know how that happened (unless Alex was being purposely obstreperous). ---------- > Ph: Pannna when it arises and the other kusala cetasikas it arises with (including kusala energy/effort, the cetasika virya) condition the arising of more kusala. ---------- KH: Yes, although that's not a good thing in itself. The good thing is that panna destroys akusala – including the cause of dukkha – and therefore leads to the non-arising of all conditioned dhammas. --------------- > Ph: And one of those kusala factors is khanti/patience, which if I remember correctly is the cetasika virya. We understand how gradual this process is, but correct understanding moves us (and fair enough to say "us" as shorthand to refer to dhammas) in the right direction, towards liberation. --------------- KH: I agree with what you are saying, but – even though shorthands are allowable - I avoid talking about anything moving in a direction. The Dhamma is for right understanding here and now. Certainly, that will entail a gradual increase in right understanding - and that can be called a movement of sorts - but, as we both agree, there is nothing that actually moves towards liberation. ------------------------- > PH: Poor TB - he is an advocate of deepening entanglement in the self, deeper and deeper into samsara he leads his unwitting victims, through no ill intent, of course, ------------------------- KH: I agree there is no point in attributing dosa, or other dhammas, to a person (a concept). Ultimately none of us has any control over the dhammas that arise, kusala or akusala. --------------- Ph: <. . .> But understanding and patience don't arise when we want (greed) them to. That's the catch. --------------- KH: Which brings us back to the beginning of this discussion: when there is belief in a self that could benefit from right understanding (and would therefore quite logically want to have it) there cannot be right understanding. Ken H #126700 From: "philip" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:03 pm Subject: Re: Ajivika view philofillet Hi Ken H Ok, I see the original context, thanks. As for Alex, he surely isn't stupid so I don't know why he continupusly fails to register that no one woyld every deny the value of effort and that it arises, and arises often for many of us. But he will appatently continue to ascribe hopeless fatalism to others. I suppose that is what is called a "straw man" in these debates. When will there be conditions for the end of it (including my obnoxious participation)? No one can say, but that isn't fatalistic, kusala develops, we just can't control its development. over and out, again! phil #126701 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:12 pm Subject: Sri Lanka revisited, Ch 2, no 6 nilovg Dear friends, We may not find someone who tells us the truth and the cause may be our unwillingness to listen. We may always talk back and find excuses for what we are doing. Bhante Dhammadharo spoke several times about the “Anumåna Sutta” (Middle Length Sayings I, no. 15). In this sutta it is said that there are sixteen qualities which make a monk “difficult to speak to”, sixteen reasons why someone else does not want to point out to that monk his weak points. The monks have to reflect on this sutta twice or three times daily, but also laypeople can benefit from this sutta. We should remember that the purpose of the suttas is not just reading, they must be applied in daily life. We read that Mahå Moggallåna, while he was staying in Sumsumåragira, in Bhesakalå Grove in the deerpark, spoke to the monks about the qualities which make a monk difficult to speak to: “.... Herein, your reverences, a monk comes to be of evil desires and in the thrall of evil desires. Whatever monk, your reverences, comes to be of evil desires and in the thrall of evil desires, this is a quality that makes him difficult to speak to. And again, your reverences, a monk exalts himself and disparages others... a monk comes to be wrathful, overpowered by wrath.... a monk comes to be wrathful and because of his wrath is a faultfinder.... a monk comes to be wrathful and because of his wrath is one who takes offence.... a monk comes to be wrathful and because of his wrath utters words bordering on wrath.... a monk, reproved, blurts out reproof against the reprover.... a monk, reproved, disparages the reprover for the reproof.... a monk, reproved, rounds on the reprover for the reproof... a monk, reproved, shelves the question by (asking) the reprover another, answers off the point, and evinces temper and ill- will and sulkiness... a monk, reproved, does not succeed in explaining his movements to the reprover.... a monk comes to be harsh, spiteful... a monk comes to be envious, grudging... a monk comes to be treacherous, deceitful... a monk comes to be stubborn, proud... And again, your reverences, a monk comes to seize the temporal, grasping it tightly, not letting go of it easily, this too is a quality that makes him difficult to speak to. These, your reverences, are called the qualities which make it difficult to speak to a monk.” The sutta speaks of many different degrees of wrath. Do we know the different degrees of our aversion when we are being reproved? We may “round on the reprover”, telling him that he makes the same mistakes. Don’t we always try to find good reasons why we are behaving the way we do? Don’t we often use the word “but” with this intention? We may keep silent when we are reproved, but with aversion; we may speak words bordering on wrath or we may blurt out words full of wrath. There are many intensities of dosa. We read that the monk who is reproved is stubborn and proud. Do we recognize such qualities in ourselves? Do we really want to be corrected by someone else? This sutta reminds us to find out whether the citta is kusala citta or akusala citta in such a situation. It may be worth while to listen to the person who gives us advice. When someone else tells us something that is true it is hard to admit that it is true. We read at the end of the sutta that the monk should get rid of all these evil states when he finds that he has not yet eradicated them. Through the development of right understanding we come to know the different kinds of defilements that arise. It is impossible to eradicate them so long as they are still taken for “my akusala”. Thus, first the wrong view of self has to be eradicated through awareness of all kinds of nåma and rúpa which appear now through the six doorways. ---------- Nina. #126702 From: han tun Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:24 pm Subject: Tranquility and Insight hantun1 Dear Friends, AN 4.94 Tatiyasamaadhisutta.m: Tranquility and Insight Translation by Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi. Source: An Anthology of Suttas from A"nguttara Nikaaya. 94. "Cattaarome, bhikkhave, puggalaa santo sa.mvijjamaanaa lokasmi.m. Katame cattaaro? These four kinds of persons, O monks, are found existing in the world. What four? --------------- (i) Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo laabhii hoti ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa, na laabhii adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya. (ii) Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo laabhii hoti adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya, na laabhii ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa. (iii) Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo na ceva laabhii hoti ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa na ca laabhii adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya. (iv) Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo laabhii ceva hoti ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa laabhii ca adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya. (i) Here, monks, a certain person gains internal tranquility of mind, but does not gain the higher wisdom of insight into things. [Note 46] (ii) Another person gains the higher wisdom of insight into things, but does not gain internal tranquility of mind. (iii) Another person gains neither internal tranquility of mind nor the higher wisdom of insight into things. (iv) And another person gains both internal tranquility of mind and the higher wisdom of insight into things. [Note 46] AA explains internal tranquility (ajjhatta.m cetosamatha) as the concentration of full mental absorption (i.e. jhaana), and the higher wisdom of insight into things (adhipa~n~naa-dhammavipassanaanaa) as the insight knowledge discerning formations (sa"nkhaara-pariggaahaka-vipassanaa-~naa.na). The latter is called "higher wisdom" and it is insight into the "things" comprised by the five aggregates. --------------- [1] "Tatra , bhikkhave, yvaaya.m puggalo laabhii ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa na laabhii adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya, tena, bhikkhave, puggalena yvaaya.m puggalo laabhii adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya so upasa"nkamitvaa evamassa vacaniiyo 'katha.m nu kho, aavuso, sa"nkhaaraa da.t.thabbaa? Katha.m sa"nkhaaraa sammasitabbaa? Katha.m sa"nkhaaraa vipassitabbaa' ti? Tassa so yathaadi.t.tha.m yathaavidita.m byaakaroti 'eva.m kho, aavuso, sa"nkhaaraa da.t.thabbaa, eva.m sa"nkhaaraa sammasitabbaa, eva.m sa"nkhaaraa vipassitabbaa'ti. So aparena samayena laabhii ceva hoti ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa laabhii ca adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya. [1] Therein, monks, the person who gains internal tranquility of mind but not the higher wisdom of insight into things (laabhii ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa, na laabhii adhipa~n~naa-dhammavipassanaa) should approach one who gains the higher wisdom and inquire of him: "How, friend, should formations be seen? How should formations be explored? How should constructions be discerned with insight?" [Note 47] The other then answers him as he has seen and understood the matter thus: "Formations should be seen in such a way; they should be explored in such a way; they should be discerned with insight in such a way." At a later time this one gains both internal tranquility of mind and the higher wisdom of insight into things (laabhii ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa, laabhii adhipa~n~naa-dhammavipassanaa). [Note 47] "Formations" (sa"nkhaaraa) are the conditioned phenomena of the five aggregates: bodily form, feeling, perception, volitional formations and consciousness. --------------- [2] "Tatra, bhikkhave, yvaaya.m puggalo laabhii adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya na laabhii ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa, tena, bhikkhave, puggalena yvaaya.m puggalo laabhii ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa so upasa"nkamitvaa evamassa vacaniiyo 'katha.m nu kho, aavuso, citta.m sa.n.thapetabba.m? Katha.m citta.m sannisaadetabba.m ? Katha.m citta.m ekodi kaatabba.m? Katha.m citta.m samaadahaatabba'nti? Tassa so yathaadi.t.tha.m yathaavidita.m byaakaroti 'eva.m kho, aavuso, citta.m sa.n.thapetabba.m, eva.m citta.m sannisaadetabba.m, eva.m citta.m ekodi kaatabba.m, eva.m citta.m samaadahaatabba'nti. So aparena samaye laabhii ceva hoti adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya laabhii ca ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa. [2] Therein, monks, the person who gains the higher wisdom of insight into things but not internal tranquility of mind (laabhii adhipa~n~naa-dhammavipassanaa, na laabhii ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa) should approach one who gains internal tranquility and inquire of him: “How, friend, should the mind be steadied? How should the mind be composed? How should the mind be unified? How should the mind be concentrated?†The other then answers him as he has seen and understood the matter thus: “The mind should be steadied in such a way, composed in such a way, united in such a way, concentrated in such a way.†At a later time this one gains both internal tranquility of mind and the higher wisdom of insight into things (laabhii adhipa~n~naa-dhammavipassanaa, laabhii ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa). --------------- [3] "Tatra, bhikkhave, yvaaya.m puggalo na ceva laabhii ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa na ca laabhii adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya, tena, bhikkhave, puggalena yvaaya.m puggalo laabhii ceva ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa laabhii ca adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya so upasa"nkamitvaa evamassa vacaniiyo 'katha.m nu kho, aavuso, citta.m sa.n.thapetabba.m? Katha.m citta.m sannisaadetabba.m? Katha.m citta.m ekodi kaatabba.m? Katha.m citta.m samaadahaatabba.m? Katha.m sa"nkhaaraa da.t.thabbaa? Katha.m sa"nkhaaraa sammasitabbaa? Katha.m sa"nkhaaraa vipassitabbaa'ti? Tassa so yathaadi.t.tha.m yathaavidita.m byaakaroti 'eva.m kho, aavuso, citta.m sa.n.thapetabba.m, eva.m citta.m sannisaadetabba.m, eva.m citta.m ekodi kaatabba.m, eva.m citta.m samaadahaatabba.m, eva.m sa"nkhaaraa da.t.thabbaa, eva.m sa"nkhaaraa sammasitabbaa, eva.m sa"nkhaaraa vipassitabbaa'ti. So aparena samayena laabhii ceva hoti ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa laabhii ca adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya. [3] Therein, monks, the person who gains neither internal tranquility of mind nor the higher wisdom of insight into things (na laabhii ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa, na laabhii adhipa~n~naa-dhammavipassanaa) should approach one who gains both and inquire of him: "How, friend, should the mind be steadied? ... How, friend, should formations be seen? ..." The other then answers him as he has seen and understood the matter thus: "The mind should be steadied in such a way ... Formations should be seen in such a way ..." At a later time this one gains both internal tranquility of mind and the higher wisdom of insight into things (laabhii ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa, laabhii adhipa~n~naa-dhammavipassanaa). ---------------- [4] "Tatra, bhikkhave, yvaaya.m puggalo laabhii ceva hoti ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa laabhii adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya , tena, bhikkhave, puggalena tesu ceva kusalesu dhammesu pati.t.thaaya uttari aasavaana.m khayaaya yogo kara.niiyo. Ime kho, bhikkhave, cattaaro puggalaa santo sa.mvijjamaanaa lokasmi"nti. [4] Therein, monks, the person who gains both internal tranquility of mind and the higher wisdom of insight into things should establish himself in just these wholesome states and make a further effort for the destruction of the taints. --------------- Han: At the end of the day, the goal of all practitioners should be to gain both internal tranquility of mind and the higher wisdom of insight into things (laabhii ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa, laabhii adhipa~n~naa-dhammavipassanaa). with metta, Han #126703 From: sprlrt@... Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta sprlrt Dear Ken O, Well, I suppose that the term 'superior', usually associated with conceit, wasn't the best word to choose when comparing samatha and vipassana, two terms which both refer to kusala dhammas. Alberto #126704 From: "philip" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:04 pm Subject: Re: Ajivika view philofillet Hi again > > As for Alex, he surely isn't stupid so I don't know why he continupusly fails to register that no one woyld every deny the value of effort and that it arises, and arises often for many of us. To clarify, virya arises with nearly every citta. I meant kusala virya, which is obviously much rarer. Often for some (few? very few? who knows?) of us, those of very wholesome accumulations... phil #126705 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:07 pm Subject: Lukas - Patthaana: Object condition sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, Alberto & all, Just clearing out some papers I took to Poland and came across the translation of Patthaana:Object condition which you raised. I think it's easy to follow, especially keeping in mind Ajahn's comments on dhatus. Let me give my understanding and you can let me know what you think: ***** Object Condition (aaramma.napaccayoti) i) Visible object-base is related to eye-consciousness element and its associated states by object condition (ruupaayatana.m cakkhuvi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa ta.msampayuttakaana~nca dhammaana.m aaramma.napaccayena paccayo.) S: When seeing consciousness and accompanying mental factors see visible object, the visible object is object condition, i.e. experienced by that citta and those cetasikas. The same applies to the other sense objects ii) - v) [The first five kinds of vi~n~naana dhaatu are referred to here]. vi) Visible object-base, sound-base, odour-base, taste-base, tangible object-base is related to mind-element and its associated states by object condition. (Ruupaayatana.m saddaayatana.m gandhaayatana.m rasaayatana.m pho.t.thabbaayatana.m manodhaatuyaa ta.msampayuttakaana~nca dhammaana.m aaramma.napaccayena paccayo.) S: When the mano dhaatu cittas and accompanying mental factors experience the sense objects, they are object condition for those cittas. Remember, these refer to the three cittas which are the only ones to arise at heart-base and just experience objects through the sense doors, i.e pancadvaravajjana citta (sense-door adverting consciousness) and the two kinds of sampaticchana citta (receiving consciousness). So now we have six kinds of vi~n~naana dhaatu so far referred to. vii) All states are related to mind-consciousness element and its associated states by object condition. (Sabbe dhammaa manovi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa ta.msampayuttakaana~nca dhammaana.m aaramma.napaccayena paccayo.) S: When any of the other kinds of citta and accompanying mental factors experience any object - whether this be a sense object, a reality only experienced through the mind-door or a concept, that object is object condition for the citta experiencing it. The mano vi~n~naana dhatu refer to all cittas other than those referred to in i) to vi), so now we have the seven kinds of vi~n~naana dhaatu. viii) Taking any state as object, these states, consciousness and mental factors, arise; those (former) states are related to those (latter) states by object condition. (Ya.m ya.m dhamma.m aarabbha ye ye dhammaa uppajjanti cittacetasikaa dhammaa, te te dhammaa tesa.m tesa.m dhammaana.m aaramma.napaccayena paccayo.) S: This is a conclusion to indicate that when any object is experienced, (remember, "anything!"), it is related to the citta and cetasikas which experience it by object condition. ***** S: I appreciated the way that Ajahn talked about dhatus, totally putting the book aside, and making sure everyone in the room understood the meaning of dhatu at this moment. Dhatu, dhamma - reality now! Seeing now if cakkhu vinnana dhatu, attachment now is dhamma dhatu - all dhatus, no atta to be found. Metta Sarah ====== #126706 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (12) aarammana (object of citta, cont'd.) sarahprocter... Dear Phil & Nina, thanks to Nina and Htoo for adding good explanations to Phil's question on "inner" and "outer". --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > The vinnana(?) consciousness is internal but the accompanying > > cetasikas are external, something like that? There will be > > conditions for Sarah to recall the point, I think > ------- > N: Manwhile I could add something. I used to find this difficult too. > This is about the inner ayaatanas and the outer ayaatanas. > Citta has as function clearly to know an object, it is the leader in > knowing an object. The cetasikas which arise and accompany citta each > perform their own function, they are entirely different from citta. > This is made clear in the following quote also from SPD: > < The bhavanga-citta > which is vipåkacitta is not involved in outward objects and > hence akusala cetasikas do not accompany it. Here it is > obvious that the citta is luminous and pure. But also when > it is accompanied by defilements, the citta itself is different > from the defilements, its nature is pure, pandara. The > "Atthasåliní", in the same section, states: "Though immoral, > it is called 'clear' (pandaraÿ) because it issues [from > subconscious vital functions] just as a tributary of the Ganges > is like the Ganges and a tributary of the Godhåvarí is like the > Godhåvarí." Even when citta is accompanied by defilements, > it does not lose its natural purity, just as the water of a > tributary is like the water of the main river. Citta just clearly > knows an object. > .... S: yes, all cittas are pandara, clear. As we read in the Dhammasangani, there are many synonyms for citta: mano or maanasa (mind), hadaya (heart), pa.n.dara (pure), manaayatana (mind-base), manindriya (faculty of mind), vi~n~naa.na (consciousness), vi~n~naa.nakkhandha and manovi~n~naa.na dhaatu. All cittas are pa.n.dara, but I believe that pabhassara (luminous) is only used for vipaka cittas and kusala cittas, not akusala cittas. We discussed some of these synonyms in Poland. Citta as "innermost". In passing, K.Sujin mentioned that in some text(s) it refers to cetasikas inside citta, hence "innermost", but I don't remember seeing this. I wonder if you have, Nina? ... > Thus, citta is entirely different from cetasika although cetasikas > accompany it. I pondered over this passage many, many times and I > find it clarifies. ... S: Yes, I find it helpful as well. Citta just experiences the object. Metta Sarah ===== #126707 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:48 pm Subject: [dsg] Contiguity/Absence condition (was, Re: kenh3) sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, Glad to slowly catch up with all your good extracts. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > For akusala there are latencies, for kusala, I have yet not find text that there is the equivalent like latenices to akusala. ... S: I think we just read about asaya (anusaya), whereby asaya refer to all tendencies, kusala and akusala. I've come across this term 'asayaanusaya' in the texts before, but forget where now. >I hope one day someone would translate Yamaka and Patthana and more importantly their commentaries as I have an instinct that there are important information in both the texts to complete the whole picture of how dhamma really connect with each other. ... S: it could have been in the Yamaka that I read about asaya anusaya when someone translated part or in the summaries. I agree it'll be helpful when it's translated. Metta Sarah ===== #126708 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:57 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Sea of concepts 5. sarahprocter... Dear Nina (& Htoo), A very good message....if there's not understanding now in daily life, however it unfolds, it's not real understanding: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: ---- > N: As you agree, only the sotaapanna destroys the idea of self. But > we can begin now, at this very moment of seeing, hearing, like, > dislike. We can very, very gradually learn that these are dhammas, > conditioned dhammas and not under the control of a self. If there is > no beginning now, in our daily life, while doing chores in the house, > sometimes very dirty chores, we can never, never make it. A bad odour > is real, it has conditions to arise. It can be known as just a > dhamma. That is daily life. So important to understand daily life. > Otherwise we are lost. ... S: Yes, otherwise "lost" again and again. This is really the sacca ~naana, K.Sujin talks so much about, the really firm understanding that the 'right' object for understanding has to be the very reality appearing now, not the reality of choice. We talked a lot about upanissaya gocara, the accumulated understanding which clearly knows the right object (gocara or arammana) at this moment in order for araka gocara, all kinds of kusala, to arise as protection from akusala and leading to the development of satipatthana, unpanibhanda gocara. Yes, the study has to be now, no matter the difficult chores, the problems in life, the worldly conditions - just dhammas, just dhatus now to be known. Thanks for sharing all your helpful reflections even now at these difficult times. Such an inspiration for us all. Metta Sarah ===== #126709 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:07 pm Subject: Re: Ten Volition 2 - Unwholesome Acts 1 sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, Jagkrit & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Commentary to Right View <...> > 5. Greed is a root of the unwholesome, etc.: It is greedy, thus it is greed (lubbhati ti lobho); it offends against (it hates), thus it is hate (dussati ti doso); it deludes, thus it is delusion (muyhati ti moho). Among these, greed is itself unwholesome in the sense that it is blameworthy and has painful results; and it is a root of these unwholesome (deeds) beginning with killing living beings, for some in the sense that it is an associated originative cause, for some in the sense that it is a decisive support condition. Thus it is an unwholesome root. This too is said: "One who is lustful, friends, overwhelmed and with mind obsessed by lust, kills a living being" (A.3:71/i,216; text slightly different). The same method applies to the state of being unwholesome roots in the cases of hate and delusion.>> ... S; Even though there is dosa when killing, lobha can be a condition by natural decisive support condition. Jagkrit, this good passage reminded me of our discussions on embarrassment and some other topics when we agreed there cannot be maana (conceit) at moments of dosa, but still the manna can be a condition in the same way. For example, when I couldn't remember a name, embarrassment likely conditioned by maana. (When K.Sujin kept forgetting the names, no apparent embarrassment!!). I think it's the same when we are reminded often that the "Self is there". Self-view or atta ditthi conditions many thoughts even when there may not be ditthi actually arising. Metta Sarah p.s Thanks again, Ken O ======== #126710 From: sprlrt@... Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:29 pm Subject: Re: Tranquility and Insight sprlrt Dear Han, Thanks for posting this sutta; I think that vipassana and samatha can be compared to a car and its air conditioning system (an useful optional making a very long trip in a very hot weather much more pleasant). Alberto Han wrote: Dear Friends, AN 4.94 Tatiyasamaadhisutta.m: Tranquility and Insight Translation by Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi. Source: An Anthology of Suttas from A"nguttara Nikaaya. 94. "Cattaarome, bhikkhave, puggalaa santo sa.mvijjamaanaa lokasmi.m. Katame cattaaro? These four kinds of persons, O monks, are found existing in the world. What four? --------------- (i) Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo laabhii hoti ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa, na laabhii adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya. (ii) Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo laabhii hoti adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya, na laabhii ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa. (iii) Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo na ceva laabhii hoti ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa na ca laabhii adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya. (iv) Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo laabhii ceva hoti ajjhatta.m cetosamathassa laabhii ca adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya. (i) Here, monks, a certain person gains internal tranquility of mind, but does not gain the higher wisdom of insight into things. [Note 46] (ii) Another person gains the higher wisdom of insight into things, but does not gain internal tranquility of mind. (iii) Another person gains neither internal tranquility of mind nor the higher wisdom of insight into things. (iv) And another person gains both internal tranquility of mind and the higher wisdom of insight into things. [Note 46] AA explains internal tranquility (ajjhatta.m cetosamatha) as the concentration of full mental absorption (i.e. jhaana), and the higher wisdom of insight into things (adhipa~n~naa-dhammavipassanaanaa) as the insight knowledge discerning formations (sa"nkhaara-pariggaahaka-vipassanaa-~naa.na). The latter is called "higher wisdom" and it is insight into the "things" comprised by the five aggregates. .... #126711 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:39 pm Subject: Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (6) sarahprocter... Dear Han, I'm now reading your installments more carefully and they are excellent, such as #126609. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > (THE ATTAINMENT OF CESSATION) <...> > [15] 16. "Lady, how does the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling come to be?" > > "Friend Visaakha, when a bhikkhu is attaining the cessation of perception and feeling, it does not occur to him: 'I shall attain (samaapajjissa'nti) the cessation of perception and feeling,' or 'I am attaining (samaapajjaamii'ti) the cessation of perception and feeling,' or 'I have attained (samaapanno'ti) the cessation of perception and feelin'; but rather his mind has previously (pubbeva) been developed in such a way that it leads him to that state." <...> S: You add a lot more detail, but I just appreciate the reminders that whatever cittas arise, there is no Self, no one at all that can decide this or that, there are just conditioned dhammas, conditioned accumulations which lead this way or that. And following: > [17] 18. "Lady, how does emergence from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling come to be?" > > "Friend Visaakha, when a bhikkhu is emerging from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling, it does not occur to him: 'I shall emerge (vu.t.thahissa'nti) from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling,' or 'I am emerging (vu.t.thahaamii'ti) from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling,' or 'I have emerged (vu.t.thito'ti) from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling'; but rather his mind has previously (pubbeva) been developed in such a way that it leads him to that state." <..> S: Again, the previous development, the accumulation, the conditions lead in this way. Thank you again for all the detail - too much to re-quote. Anumodana Metta Sarah ======= #126712 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:46 pm Subject: Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (7) sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, Alberto, Han & all, In Poland we discussed a lot about feelings and how all feelings are dukkha, all conditioned dhammas are dukkha. Vedana is a khandha (on its own) because of the great importance we attach to feelings, always looking for pleasant feeling. The following, quoted by Han is a very neat summary: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta > (translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi) > > (FEELING) <...> > [23] "Sukhaa panaayye, vedanaa ki.msukhaa ki.mdukkhaa, > dukkhaa vedanaa ki.msukhaa ki.mdukkhaa, > adukkhamasukhaa vedanaa ki.msukhaa ki.mdukkhaa"ti? > > "Sukhaa kho, aavuso visaakha, vedanaa .thitisukhaa vipari.naamadukkhaa; > dukkhaa vedanaa .thitidukkhaa vipari.naamasukhaa ; > adukkhamasukhaa vedanaa ~naa.nasukhaa a~n~naa.nadukkhaa"ti. > > [23] 24. "Lady, what is pleasant and what is painful in regard to pleasant feeling? What is painful and what is pleasant in regard to painful feeling? What is pleasant and what is painful in regard to neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling?" > > "Friend Visakha, pleasant feeling is pleasant when it persists and painful when it changes (sukhaa vedanaa .thiti sukhaa, vipari.naama dukkhaa). > Painful feeling is painful when it persists and pleasant when it changes (dukkhaa vedanaa .thiti dukkhaa, vipari.naama sukhaa). > Neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling is pleasant when there is knowledge [of it] and painful when there is no knowledge [of it] (adukkhamasukhaa vedanaa ~naa.na sukhaa, a~n~naa.na dukkhaa)." > > ---------------------- S: Excellent! Whatever vedana now - pleasant, unpleasant or neutral, it arises and falls away. All dukkha! Metta Sarah ===== #126713 From: han tun Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (6) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for reading my posts and offering your comments. And I accept your comments with deepest gratitude. But I find it a bit difficult in the following: S: You add a lot more detail, but I just appreciate the reminders that whatever cittas arise, there is no Self, no one at all that can decide this or that, there are just conditioned dhammas, conditioned accumulations which lead this way or that. Han: What you said is correct from the point of paramattha saccaa. But in the case of entering and emerging from Nirodha-samaapatti, the pubba-kicca done by the meditator dictates the whole process. In that sense there is a "doer." If the meditator does not undertake the pubba-kicca the cittas will not arise or cease by themselves. I think we have to make a balance between paramattha sacca and sammuti saccaa. with metta and respect, Han --- On Tue, 9/25/12, sarahprocterabbott wrote: Dear Han, I'm now reading your installments more carefully and they are excellent, such as #126609. #126714 From: han tun Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Tranquility and Insight hantun1 Dear Alberto, Thank you very much for your kind words. I like your analogy. with metta and respect, Han --- On Tue, 9/25/12, sprlrt@... wrote: Dear Han, Thanks for posting this sutta; I think that vipassana and samatha can be compared to a car and its air conditioning system (an useful optional making a very long trip in a very hot weather much more pleasant). Alberto #126715 From: Ken O Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ajivika view ashkenn2k Dear Phil K: Understanding and patience do arise if we want them do. There is nothing wrong for someone to pursue the understanding of dhamma, to look into the texts. To say just because we want something is wrong, that is not in accordance to the text. Neither does one who wish to go to the temple to listen to the teachings is conditioned by a self. It does not mean just because we want something and we do it, is all arise from akusala. Understanding of dhamma is not a natural process, it is a process of repetitiveness, investigation and practising it. also it is not necessary to be motivated by panna in order to develop panna. There could be other causes like faith, energy, mindfulness, they are all could be factor to cause the arisen in panna. Even an object could cause the arisen of panna. thank you KC #126716 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ajivika view upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Phil, and Alex) - In a message dated 9/25/2012 12:29:16 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: My reply to Alex was that panna could not arise with wrong practice, and so his suggestion did not apply. ============================== That reply seems wrong, Ken, or at least to call for some modification. Is not some wisdom requisite for right practice? When there is no right practice at all - the initial situation, of course - if pa~n~na were consequently unable to arise, then there would never be right practice, and thus there could not ever be awakening. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #126717 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (12) aarammana (object of citta, cont'd.) nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 25-sep-2012, om 10:42 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > Citta as "innermost". In passing, K.Sujin mentioned that in some > text(s) it refers to cetasikas inside citta, hence "innermost", but > I don't remember seeing this. I wonder if you have, Nina? > ..... N: No. Perhaps some of the context is missing. Nina. #126718 From: Sukinder Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ajivika view sukinderpal Hi Ken and Phil, > K: Understanding and patience do arise if we want them do. There is > nothing wrong for someone to pursue the understanding of dhamma, to > look into the texts. > Are you saying that if I sit down to read Suttas panna will arise, and if I do this thinking that this will happen, it is equivalent to being able to make panna arise? Does this imply also then, that if I go out to watch a film and don't wish to think about Dhamma, that panna would not arise then? > To say just because we want something is wrong, that is not in > accordance to the text. Neither does one who wish to go to the temple > to listen to the teachings is conditioned by a self. > > It does not mean just because we want something and we do it, is all > arise from akusala. > Phil was I believe, referring to lobha and not kusala chanda. He was referring to lobha accompanying self view which thinks to make a connection between some conventional activity, such as opening a Sutta to read, going to a temple to hear the Dhamma, or sitting down to meditate, with the arising of panna. > Understanding of dhamma is not a natural process, it is a process of > repetitiveness, investigation and practising it. > You mean it does not happen without a cause? Of course it doesn't, however believing that some particular conventional activity is needed in order to make panna arise, this is not one of those causes, but is in fact a great hindrance. > also it is not necessary to be motivated by panna in order to develop > panna. There could be other causes like faith, energy, mindfulness, > they are all could be factor to cause the arisen in panna. Even an > object could cause the arisen of panna. > It is useless to wonder when it first happened, but clearly any panna that arises now must be because panna arose in the past must it not? How do you see faith, energy and mindfulness in isolation as possibly leading to panna? Sukin #126719 From: Kc Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ajivika view ashkenn2k Dear Sukin Up to your interpretation of how panna will arise and how it is cause to arise, just like you go listen to AS. Unless you have textual support that conventional action like listening to dhamma or concepts cannot be used in developing the path, I will continue to discuss with you. I am alright with discussion as long as you could show me the text. If not, that is all I have to say and the discussion will end here. Thank you KC #126720 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:22 am Subject: Re: Ajivika view kenhowardau Hi Howard, Thanks for joining in. ---- >> KH: My reply to Alex was that panna could not arise with wrong practice, and so his suggestion did not apply. > H: That reply seems wrong, Ken, or at least to call for some modification. ---- KH: I'm not sure modification is the right word, but perhaps that reply might have called for "further explanation" in some circumstances. ---------- > H: Is not some wisdom requisite for right practice? ---------- KH: Yes, in Abhidhamma terminology "right practice" refers to a moment of path consciousness, (either pariyatti, patipati or pativeda) and, as such, it always contains a factor of right-understanding. That was how I meant it, and I didn't explain further to Alex because he must surely know, after all these years, that was how I meant it. -------------------- > H: When there is no right practice at all - the initial situation, of course - if pa~n~na were consequently unable to arise, then there would never be right practice, and thus there could not ever be awakening. --------------------- KH: That's a hypothetical situation, and I am not sure how to grasp it. I am sure, however, (from what I have been told and considered) how to grasp the present situation. It consists entirely of conditioned dhammas. Ken H #126721 From: han tun Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:30 am Subject: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (9) Last Installment hantun1 Dear Friends, MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi) (COUNTERPARTS) [28] 466. "Sukhaaya panaayye, vedanaaya ki.m pa.tibhaago"ti? "Sukhaaya kho, aavuso visaakha, vedanaaya dukkhaa vedanaa pa.tibhaago"ti. [28] 29. "Lady, what is the counterpart of pleasant feeling?" [Note 477] "Friend Visaakha, painful feeling is the counterpart of pleasant feeling." [Note 477] The word "counterpart" (pa.tibhaaga) is used to express the relationships of both opposition and supplementation. [Han: The above interpretation of (pa.tibhaaga) is very good. Because, some of the questions asked were for the opposite counterparts, and some were for supplementary counterparts. For example, questions on dukkha vedanaa and sukha vedanaa, avijjaa and vijjaa are looking for opposite counterparts; whereas, questions on adukkhamasukha vedanaa and avijjaa, vijjaa and vimuttu, and vimutti and Nibbaana are looking for supplementary counterparts.] --------------------- [29] "Dukkhaaya pannaayye, vedanaaya ki.m pa.tibhaago"ti? "Dukkhaaya kho, aavuso visaakha, vedanaaya sukhaa vedanaa pa.tibhaago"ti. [29] "What is the counterpart of painful feeling?" "Pleasant feeling is the counterpart of painful feeling." -------------------- [30] "Adukkhamasukhaaya panaayye, vedanaaya ki.m pa.tibhaago"ti? "Adukkhamasukhaaya kho, aavuso visaakha, vedanaaya avijjaa pa.tibhaago"ti. [30] "What is the counterpart of neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling?" "Ignorance is the counterpart of neither-painful-nor pleasant feeling." [Note 478] [Note 478] Ignorance is its counterpart because neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling is subtle and difficult to recognize. -------------------- [31] "Avijjaaya panaayye, ki.m pa.tibhaago"ti? "Avijjaaya kho, aavuso visaakha, vijjaa pa.tibhaago"ti. [31] "What is the counterpart of ignorance?" "True knowledge (vijjaa) is the counterpart of ignorance (avijjaa)." --------------------- [32] "Vijjaaya panaayye, ki.m pa.tibhaago"ti? "Vijjaaya kho, aavuso visaakha, vimutti pa.tibhaago"ti. [32] "What is the counterpart of true knowledge?" "Deliverance (vimutti) is the counterpart of true knowledge (vijjaa)." ------------------- [33] "Vimuttiyaa panaayye , ki.m pa.tibhaago"ti? "Vimuttiyaa kho, aavuso visaakha, nibbaana.m pa.tibhaago"ti. [33] "What is the counterpart of deliverance?" "Nibbana is the counterpart of deliverance (vimutti)." ------------------- [34] "Nibbaanassa panaayye, ki.m pa.tibhaago"ti? "Accayaasi, aavuso visaakha, pa~nha.m, naasakkhi pa~nhaana.m pariyanta.m gahetu.m. Nibbaanogadha~nhi, aavuso visaakha, brahmacariya.m, nibbaanaparaayana.m nibbaanapariyosaana.m. Aaka"nkhamaano ca tva.m, aavuso visaakha, bhagavanta.m upasa"nkamitvaa etamattha.m puccheyyaasi, yathaa ca te bhagavaa byaakaroti tathaa na.m dhaareyyaasii"ti. [34] "Lady, what is the counterpart of Nibbana?" "Friend Visaakha, you have pushed this line of questioning too far; you were not able to grasp the limit to questions. [Note 479] For the holy life, friend Visakha, merges in Nibbana, culminates in Nibbana, ends in Nibbana. If you wish, friend Visakha, go to the Blessed One and ask him about the meaning of this. As the Blessed One explains it to you, so you should remember it.†[Note 479] M.T: Nibbaana does not have an opposite counterpart, namely, conditioned states. But in the strict sense it has no supplementary counterpart, for how can there be anything to supplement Nibbaana, the unconditioned? -------------------------- (CONCLUSION) 467. Atha kho visaakho upaasako dhammadinnaaya bhikkhuniyaa bhaasita.m abhinanditvaa anumoditvaa u.t.thaayaasanaa dhammadinna.m bhikkhuni.m abhivaadetvaa padakkhi.na.m katvaa yena bhagavaa tenupasa"nkami; upasa"nkamitvaa bhagavanta.m abhivaadetvaa ekamanta.m nisiidi. Ekamanta.m nisinno kho visaakho upaasako yaavatako ahosi dhammadinnaaya bhikkhuniyaa saddhi.m kathaasallaapo ta.m sabba.m bhagavato aarocesi. 30. Then the lay follower Visaakha, having delighted and rejoiced in the bhikkhunii Dhammadinnaa's words, rose from his seat, and after paying homage to her, keeping her on his right, he went to the Blessed One. After paying homage to him, he sat down at one side and told the Blessed One his entire conversation with the bhikkhunii Dhammadinnaa. When he finished speaking, the Blessed One told him: Eva.m vutte, bhagavaa visaakha.m upaasaka.m etadavoca "pa.n.ditaa, visaakha, dhammadinnaa bhikkhunii, mahaapa~n~naa, visaakha, dhammadinnaa bhikkhunii. Ma.m cepi tva.m, visaakha, etamattha.m puccheyyaasi, ahampi ta.m evameva.m byaakareyya.m, yathaa ta.m dhammadinnaaya bhikkhuniyaa byaakata.m. Eso cevetassa attho. Eva~nca na.m dhaarehii"ti. Idamavoca bhagavaa. Attamano visaakho upaasako bhagavato bhaasita.m abhinandiiti. 31. "The bhikkhunii Dhammadinnaa is wise, Visaakha, the bhikkhunii Dhammadinnaa has great wisdom. If you had asked me the meaning of this, I would have explained it to you in the same way that the bhikkhunii Dhammadinnaa has explained it. Such is its meaning, and so you should remember it." [Note 480] [Note 480] MA: By saying this, the Buddha makes this sutta Word of the Conqueror, stamped as it were with the seal of the Conqueror. [Han: This is very important. Because the Buddha has endorsed it, all the answers given by Therii Dhammadinnaa can be treated as the answers given by the Buddha himself.] That is what the Blessed One said. The lay follower Visaakha was satisfied and delighted in the Blessed One's words. -------------------- This is the End of my presentation of MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta with metta, Han #126722 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ajivika view upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 9/25/2012 5:22:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, Thanks for joining in. ----------------------------------------------- HCW: :-) Thanks for the warm greeting! ------------------------------------------------- ---- >> KH: My reply to Alex was that panna could not arise with wrong practice, and so his suggestion did not apply. > H: That reply seems wrong, Ken, or at least to call for some modification. ---- KH: I'm not sure modification is the right word, but perhaps that reply might have called for "further explanation" in some circumstances. ---------------------------------------------------- HCW: Yes, I'd like a bit. --------------------------------------------------- ---------- > H: Is not some wisdom requisite for right practice? ---------- KH: Yes, in Abhidhamma terminology "right practice" refers to a moment of path consciousness, (either pariyatti, patipati or pativeda) and, as such, it always contains a factor of right-understanding. That was how I meant it, and I didn't explain further to Alex because he must surely know, after all these years, that was how I meant it. -------------------------------------------------- HCW: Ah, In see. I thought you meant merely arising of wholesome states, conducive to eventual path consciousness. --------------------------------------------------- -------------------- > H: When there is no right practice at all - the initial situation, of course - if pa~n~na were consequently unable to arise, then there would never be right practice, and thus there could not ever be awakening. --------------------- KH: That's a hypothetical situation, and I am not sure how to grasp it. I am sure, however, (from what I have been told and considered) how to grasp the present situation. It consists entirely of conditioned dhammas. ---------------------------------------------------- HCW: I don't disagree with that. It doesn't seem to address my point, though. In any case, thanks, Ken! ---------------------------------------------------- Ken H ========================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #126723 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:31 pm Subject: Death. nilovg Dear Sarah and friends, Lodewijk died a few hours ago. The evening before I listened to Poland at noon, about Lukas' sorrow about a dear one, Kh S: She often says how was past life, we do not know anymore. The person who was dear to one in past life, we do not know. ------- Nina. #126724 From: han tun Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Death. hantun1 Dear Nina. I am deeply saddened to hear about your great loss. This must be very difficult for you. You are in my thoughts and my prayers. I still remember the time we at the hotel in Bangkok. Please accept my most heart-felt condolences. Han --- On Wed, 9/26/12, Nina van Gorkom wrote: From: Nina van Gorkom Subject: [dsg] Death. To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, September 26, 2012, 12:31 PM Dear Sarah and friends, Lodewijk died a few hours ago. The evening before I listened to Poland at noon, about Lukas' sorrow about a dear one, Kh S: She often says how was past life, we do not know anymore. The person who was dear to one in past life, we do not know. ------- Nina. #126725 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:46 pm Subject: Re: Death. szmicio Dear Nina, It's hard to hear. I've heard Lodewijk on recordings, and I always recalled you and him as a great Dhamma friends to me. Hope you are fine. Today i will have a seclusion day for Lodewijk. Is there anything I can do for you? Best wishes Lukas > Lodewijk died a few hours ago. The evening before I listened to > Poland at noon, about Lukas' sorrow about a dear one, Kh S: as one dies and one is reborn one cannot be the same one, one is > another instantly, one keeps on being another person. The person who > was dear to one is also another person. > > > She often says how was past life, we do not know anymore. The person > who was dear to one in past life, we do not know. > > ------- > Nina. > #126726 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:23 pm Subject: Re: Death. ptaus1 Dear Nina, I'm sorry for your loss. I never had the chance to meet Lodewijk in person, but will always be grateful for his audio readings of the Perfections as well as his good questions to A.Sujin, especially about sati - often when I remember about sati, I remember Lodewijk. Always grateful for the good reminders. Best wishes pt --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah and friends, > > Lodewijk died a few hours ago. The evening before I listened to > Poland at noon, about Lukas' sorrow about a dear one, Kh S: as one dies and one is reborn one cannot be the same one, one is > another instantly, one keeps on being another person. The person who > was dear to one is also another person. > > > She often says how was past life, we do not know anymore. The person > who was dear to one in past life, we do not know. > > ------- > Nina. > #126727 From: sprlrt@... Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:04 pm Subject: Re: Death sprlrt Dear Nina, I am sorry to hear about Lodewijk's death, your life-time companion you shared so much with, including the Dhamma. with metta, Alberto #126728 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Death. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Our thoughts are with you. It's true as you say below. We form strong bonds and grieve life after life after without end. Understanding is the only cure for our sickness. "No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." A new life, new experiences, for the dear one we remember as our beloved Lodewijk. There was so much pain towards the end of his life that perhaps it's for the best the end cam quickly for him. Lodewijk was a wonderful friend to those who were honoured to spend time with him. For those who didn't know him personally, he was also a wonderful support and guide to you during all the decades you've devoted yourself to to sharing the Dhamma with everyone. Please let us know if we can be of any assistance during this time in anyway, Nina. Metta and Sympathies Sarah (& Jonothan) >Lodewijk died a few hours ago. The evening before I listened to >Poland at noon, about Lukas' sorrow about a dear one, Kh S: as one dies and one is reborn one cannot be the same one, one is >another instantly, one keeps on being another person. The person who >was dear to one is also another person. > > >She often says how was past life, we do not know anymore. The person >who was dear to one in past life, we do not know. ===== #126729 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (6) sarahprocter... Dear Han, > From: han tun >S: You add a lot more detail, but I just appreciate the reminders that whatever cittas arise, there is no Self, no one at all that can decide this or that, there are just conditioned dhammas, conditioned accumulations which lead this way or that. > >Han: What you said is correct from the point of paramattha saccaa. But in the case of entering and emerging from Nirodha-samaapatti, the pubba-kicca done by the meditator dictates the whole process. In that sense there is a "doer." If the meditator does not undertake the pubba-kicca the cittas will not arise or cease by themselves. .... S:Does the the pubba-kicca (preparation) consist of dhammas which are conditioned too? For example, when we "his mind has previously (pubbeva) been developed in such a way that it leads him to that state.", is the text not just talking about the development of particular cittas and cetasikas? We read a lot about different conditions, such as natural decisive support condition, object condition, root condition and so on - aren't these developments and attainments occurring as a result of all the different conditions? Similarly, the cittas with lobha now, the determinations now, the little wisdom arising now, are also arising by conditions, not any "doer". ... >I think we have to make a balance between paramattha sacca and sammuti saccaa. ... S: I agree that we need to use sammuti sacca in our daily life and we can talk about a "doer" and "actions" and so on. However, isn't the purpose of all such Teachings to help the development of understanding of paramattha dhammas as being the "all" in truth, the "all" as anatta dhammas? I know you prefer not to get side-tracked by discussions and debates, Han, so please feel free to continue with your excellent series and to ignore my comments. Metta Sarah ===== #126730 From: "philip" Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:25 pm Subject: Re: Death. philofillet Dear Nina I'm so sorry for your loss, Nina. There is reassurance for me in knowing that you and Lodewijk shared the Dhamma for so many years. phil #126731 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Sea of concepts 5. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, (DSG site has been down, so I hope you received my condolences and note there). I find this quote of K.Sujin's helpful to reflect on at this time: > From: Nina van Gorkom >The Sea of concepts 5. > >How many lives have passed until now, or even how many moments have >passed from childhood until now that we are searching only for seeing >colour that appears just for a short moment and then falls away; or >only for hearing sound that appears just for a short moment and then >falls away. It is the same for smelling odour, tasting flavour and >experiencing tangible object, everything appears just for a short >moment and then falls away, there is nothing left. ... S: Always searching, trying to have a special visible object, sound, taste and so on. In fact, they are all the same - just conditioned dhammas which arise and fall away. Each visible object is the same as each other one in that it is seen by seeing consciousness (accompanied by neutral feeling and other factors), falling away instantly. After these experiences of sense objects, there is just a lot of thinking, proliferating, usually with no awareness or understanding at all. .... > >Before being born as this person was there a self? From the first day >of our life until adulthood, until now, we have the idea of self. In >our life there are different events, happy or unhappy, and we think >that when we depart from this world we shall regret it to leave the >things we had in this life. However, we can consider our life more >deeply. Although we shall depart from this life at the end of our >life, this is the same as in a previous life when we were not yet >born into this life. We did not have the things we have now and, >thus, no regret. Each life is like this, there is nothing left except >realities that arise and fall away according to conditions. Because >of ignorance there is atta-sa~n~naa, wrong remembrance of self, just >remembrance. ... S: Atta-sa~n~naa which leads to thinking of people and things all day. Whatever happens in life, whatever happens at this moment, actually there are just cittas, cetasikas and rupas - "there is nothing left except realities that arise and fall away according to conditions." Courage and understanding to accept the truth. Not easy at all. Metta Sarah ====== #126732 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana 10 - Mental Object - Sense Bases 1 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Ken O gave a good quote - a reminder why there has to be the understanding of visible object and seeing now: > From: Ken O >Commentary to Satipatthana <...> >Yam tadubhayam paticcca uppajjati samyojanam= "The fetter that arises dependent on both (eye and forms)." He understands according to distinct function and characteristic the tenfold fetter that arises dependent on both eye and forms — the tenfold fetter of sense-desire, resentment, pride, speculative theory, doubt, belief in rites and ceremonies, the desire to go on existing, envy, avarice and ignorance. > >"How does this tenfold fettering arise?" asks one. > >The fetter of sensuality arises for him who by way of sensuous enjoyment takes delight in a pleasant sense-object become visible at the eye-door. For him who is annoyed or angry at the sight of an unpleasant object, the fetter of resentment arises, and the fetter of pride arises in him who thinks: No one but me is able to consider the object wisely. The fetter of speculative theory comes to be in him who takes material form to be permanent and everlasting. The fetter of doubt arises in him who thinks in this way: Is the material form a being or a being's? The fetter of the desire to go on >existing arises in him who wishes thus: To be sure, in a favorable state of existence this material form will become easy of access. The fetter of rites and ceremonies arises in him who undertakes to perform rites and ceremonies thinking: In the future it will be possible to obtain such an object as this by taking up the observance of rites and ceremonies. The fetter of envy arises in him who contemplates grudgingly: Should no others get this material form, it would be good, indeed. The fetter of avarice arises in one who stints for another the material form belonging to one. The fetter of ignorance arises (with all the previously mentioned fetters), with all sensuous passion and the like, by way of the relation of conascent nescience.>> ... S: We place so much importance on seeing and visible object. It seems that we see all the time. In reality, just a very brief moment of seeing, followed by so much attachment, so much thinking and so on. Metta Sarah ===== #126733 From: han tun Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (6) hantun1 Dear Sarah, I sincerely appreciate your comments. The only problem is I cannot reach that stage where there is no self, no doer, or no control, etc. Yes, it is indeed the purpose of all the Teachings. But it will take a long, long time for me to gain that purpose. No, no, I will not ignore your comments. How can I? I always look up to you. with metta and respect, Han --- On Wed, 9/26/12, sarah abbott wrote: From: sarah abbott Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (6) To: "dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com" Date: Wednesday, September 26, 2012, 3:43 PM Dear Han, > From: han tun >S: You add a lot more detail, but I just appreciate the reminders that whatever cittas arise, there is no Self, no one at all that can decide this or that, there are just conditioned dhammas, conditioned accumulations which lead this way or that. > >Han: What you said is correct from the point of paramattha saccaa. But in the case of entering and emerging from Nirodha-samaapatti, the pubba-kicca done by the meditator dictates the whole process. In that sense there is a "doer." If the meditator does not undertake the pubba-kicca the cittas will not arise or cease by themselves. .... S:Does the the pubba-kicca (preparation)  consist of dhammas which are conditioned too? For example, when we "his mind has previously (pubbeva) been developed in such a way that it leads him to that state.", is the text not just talking about the development of particular cittas and cetasikas? We read a lot about different conditions, such as natural decisive support condition, object condition, root condition and so on - aren't these developments and attainments occurring as a result of all the different conditions? Similarly, the cittas with lobha now, the determinations now, the little wisdom arising now,  are also arising by conditions, not any "doer". ... >I think we have to make a balance between paramattha sacca and sammuti saccaa. ... S: I agree that we need to use sammuti sacca in our daily life and we can talk about a "doer" and "actions" and so on. However, isn't the purpose of all such Teachings to help the development of understanding of paramattha dhammas as being the "all" in truth, the "all" as anatta dhammas? I know you prefer not to get side-tracked by discussions and debates, Han, so please feel free to continue with your excellent series and to ignore my comments. Metta Sarah ===== #126734 From: "philip" Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:48 pm Subject: Re: Death. philofillet Hi again Nina It was a strange afternoon, there were conditions for rather bkeak thinking even before I heard the sad news. As I jigged, thoygh, I geard something about the rare occurence of human birth, and it made me think about that sutta about goung from the light to the light, do we fulfill our good fortune of human birth by living in a way that develops kusala, on the whoke, rather than akusala?(Pribably a simplification of tgat sutta.) When I got home from my jog, I read your note about Lodewijk's passing, and wrote my little comment, then had lots of housework to do. I thought about Lodewijk in the light of that sutta and felt xonfudent that he was a man who made a great yse of the gift of human birth -working for peace and understanding as a diplomat, learning Dhamma, treasuring his spouse. Well, that is all I really know of him. So a good conventional reassurance about a life nobly lived. Then I listened to some of the Poland audio for the first time, A.Sujin's first talk, about how little we know, even this moment, we think we see Lujas, for exampke, but just visible object, and at one pount she talked about life as just one citta, but what is it, moment by moment, seeing, hearing, all so fleeting. Can we say what will come next, a moment of seeing, or hearing, or thinking? No. So flketing, this lufe of citta arising and fallung away, beyobd control. And yet it's great that Lodewijk can be celebrated as a man who lived a great life (in the sense of developing kusala) even as our understanding gradually develops that in the ultimate, liberating truth life is just one citta that arises, and then the next one, like the cuti citta and the rebirth citta, but also like any moment of seeing, hearing. But the Buddha *does* teach about the mangalas, whuch include such things as taking care of loved ones and mastering crafts. So as we (so to speak) move towards deeper understanding, we can celebrate Lodewijk's mangalas, if it can be put thay way, conventionally speaking. Understanding is developing not only in our understanding of what a citta is (and how quickly it falls away and how in the moment there is only that citta, nothing else, no person at all) but also in understanding what, according to the Buddha, constitutes a life well lived, as in the Mangala sutta. Just some thoughts. Is it a wee bit of cheating to celebrate a good man's life when we usually only talk about dhammas? I don't think so, maybe it is, maybe not. Depends on the citta at the moment of celebrating, I guess, whether there is understanding or just platitudes... Again, very sorry for your loss. Phil phil #126735 From: Sukinder Narula Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Death. sukinderpal Dear Nina, Very sorry to hear this news about Lodewijk's passing away. I knew that he was sick but did not expect that we'd not meet again. Everything happens by conditions beyond control. I do hope however, that you will stay with us in good health and spirits and continue to share your understanding of the Dhamma for many more days to come. Metta, Sukin Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > >Dear Sarah and friends, > >Lodewijk died a few hours ago. The evening before I listened to >Poland at noon, about Lukas' sorrow about a dear one, Kh S: as one dies and one is reborn one cannot be the same one, one is >another instantly, one keeps on being another person. The person who >was dear to one is also another person. > > >She often says how was past life, we do not know anymore. The person >who was dear to one in past life, we do not know. > >------- >Nina. > > > > #126736 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:54 pm Subject: Re: Death. jagkrit2012 Dear Nina I'm so sorry for your loss today. I do not know Lodewijk personally but I always admire him and your as my best dhamma friend the way you and him have shared and educated dhammas here and in Thailand many years. I always do hope that his departure of this world with all kusala will bring him to peaceful world and enjoy his panna he accumulates. Jagkrit #126737 From: "philip" Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:30 pm Subject: Understanding the best comfort philofillet Hi all I was listening to the first day of the Poland talk, when Sarah paraphrases Lukas' feeling about wishing that Dhamma could be like a medicine to deal with painful feeling, etc, something we've all wished at times, I'm sure, whether consciously or not. (You know, I always go on about Dhamma being a comforter we sometimes cling to.) I really liked A.Sujin's comment, and also what Ann (I'm pretty sure) added: A.S Life changes all the time or doesn't change? See, by conditions, and no expectation, no speculation. Because it's always unknown about the conditions for anything to arise. But whenever there is panna, right understanding, the feeling of pain, or worry, or agitated or the unpleasant reality can be known as not-self, and as very temporary too. It can cure better than any other words, which is like very...it can comfort, but actually not, because it's not the truth.But when it's the truth, one knows that life is this, it's conditioned, and it changes, and we don't know what will be the next moment, let it come, with right understanding, and you'll see that everything keeps on changing. Lukas: But my question is it good to learn about the conditions and realities. A.S Yes, to really understand, oltherwise it brings pain and sorrow and unpleasant feeling, while life is like this. But seeing is seeing, hearing is hearing. No matter where, when, and whom. The dogs seeing, the cats seeing, the devas seeing, the animals seeing - seeing is seeing. Seeing cannot be cat, cannot be dog. Seeing is seeing. Ann: Sometimes we have the expectation that as we learn more about the Dhamma and understanding grows, that somehow painful things will arise less often. And that's not necessarily the case, the only thing that can be said is that there will be more understanding of them - maybe - mhen they arise. I add in passing that sometimes understanding is denied its rightful place when we assign feelings to others. For example, after my cousin committed suicide, surprisingly, there was peace of mind for his father. "You never know," as he wrote in a letter. I'm not saying that this is the case for Nina, but interesting to note how there is an assumption she is miserable, which is certainly possible but by being assumed kind of denies the potency of understanding! Anyways, I'll shut up now, but I like that above, that even the kindest words out squeezed out with the most care to try to comfort someone are not as helpful as understanding dhammas, and Dhamma. (But they are still nice!) Phil #126738 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Death. upasaka_howard Dear Nina - In a message dated 9/26/2012 1:31:22 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Sarah and friends, Lodewijk died a few hours ago. The evening before I listened to Poland at noon, about Lukas' sorrow about a dear one, Kh S: She often says how was past life, we do not know anymore. The person who was dear to one in past life, we do not know. ------- Nina. =============================== I am so sorry. Lodewijk will be sorely missed. Though he and I met only once in person, I will miss him greatly! I do believe that this sweet man will fare very, very well, and I'm grateful that your loving memories of Lodewijk and your life together, and , for sure, the Buddha's Dhamma, will be great support for you. Love, Howard Impermanence /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom and a dream/ (From the Diamond Sutra) #126739 From: Icaro França Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:06 pm Subject: Re: Death. icarofranca Dear Nina. Sorry. I am so sorry...Mr. Lodewijk passed away . If his reborn citta's patterns keep some similarity with his past Self, one should say that Lodewijk Van Gorkon managed to escape the grinds of death... But that's very improbable, even at a statistical level about the continuous flow of cittas. Mme. Sujin's teachings are paramount about this painfully questions. Rest in peace, Chevalier Lodewijk Van Gorkon. Mettaya, Icaro dos Santos França, M.Sc. Pesquisador Tecnologista em Metrologia e Qualidade Instituto Nacional de Metrologia, Qualidade e Tecnologia - Inmetro Divisão de Gestão de Processos - Dgpro Diretoria de Metrologia Legal - Dimel Tel.: (21) 2679-9767 Isfranca@... www.inmetro.gov.br Enviado via iPad #126740 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:42 pm Subject: Sri Lanka revisited, Ch 2, no7 nilovg Dear friends, There is the síla of the eightfold Path and this is: right speech (sammå våcå), right action (sammå kammanta) and right livelihood (sammå åjíva). These three factors are sobhana cetasikas (beautiful mental factors) and they are factors of the eightfold Path if they are accompanied by the right understanding (sammå ditthi) of the eightfold Path. When we abstain from wrong speech, wrong action and wrong livelihood (which is wrong speech and wrong action committed for the sake of our livelihood), without right understanding of the eightfold Path, there is síla, but not síla of the eightfold Path. When right understanding of nåma and rúpa has been developed it can arise when we refrain from wrong speech, wrong action and wrong livelihood, and that is síla of the eightfold Path. When we abstain from akusala we may still cling to a concept of self who abstains. When right understanding has been developed it realizes that it is nåma that abstains, only a conditioned reality, not self. It depends on conditions whether there can be síla of the eightfold Path, but we should see the value of all levels of síla. We should apply ourselves to síla, right conduct in body and speech, be it refraining from ill deeds, sincere politeness, the paying of respect or helping others. Síla is a form of giving, because when we give up defilements it is also for the benefit and happiness of other beings; we let them live in peace and we do not harm them. When we have more loving kindness and compassion for other beings, even for insects, there are conditions to refrain from harming them. When we refrain from killing we give the gift of life. We read in the “Gradual Sayings” (Book of the Eights, Ch IV, § 9, Yields) about five gifts, given by a noble disciple [1]: “Herein, monks, a noble disciple gives up the taking of life and abstains from it. By abstaining from taking life, the noble disciple gives to immeasurable beings freedom from fear, gives them freedom from hostility, and freedom from oppression. By giving to immeasurable beings freedom from fear, hostility and oppression, he himself will enjoy immeasurable freedom from fear, hostility and oppression....” The same is said about the other four precepts. By abstaining from stealing, sexual misconduct, lying and the taking of intoxicants one gives to immeasurable beings freedom from fear, hostility and oppression. When we see síla as a gift of kindness to others it can inspire us to develop síla together with satipaììhåna so that we shall have less selfishness. --------- [1] I am using the translation of Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel Publication 238-240, B.P.S. Kandy, Sri Lanka. -------- Nina. #126741 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:20 am Subject: Re: Death. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah and friends, > > Lodewijk died a few hours ago. I am very sorry to hear about your loss. There is a story about a Tibetan teacher who always told his students that the people they were attached to were illusory. When his own son died, he cried and grieved, and his students were angry. Why are you so griefstricken if your son was an illusion? The teacher replied: "I know he was an illusion, but he was such a beautiful illusion, I can't help but grieve." Much metta, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - #126742 From: "philip" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:58 am Subject: Re: Sri Lanka revisited, Ch 2, no7 philofillet Hi Nina > When we abstain > from akusala we may still cling to a concept of self who abstains. > When right understanding has been developed it realizes that it is > nåma that abstains, only a conditioned reality, not self. The former is still kusala, even though there is clinging to concept of self, (and therefore lobha as well, I assume)? Can there be a degree of sila that is technically speaking akusala? Or is "clinging to concept of self who abstains" kusala but without panna? Thanks Nina, only if/when you have time. Phil #126743 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:07 am Subject: Re: Sri Lanka revisited, Ch 2, no7 epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > When we abstain > > from akusala we may still cling to a concept of self who abstains. > > When right understanding has been developed it realizes that it is > > nåma that abstains, only a conditioned reality, not self. > > The former is still kusala, even though there is clinging to concept of self, (and therefore lobha as well, I assume)? Can there be a degree of sila that is technically speaking akusala? Or is "clinging to concept of self who abstains" kusala but without panna? > > Thanks Nina, only if/when you have time. I don't usually reply to you on these issues, but I think you may find some sense in my response this time: I would assume that these are two separate moments, since kusala and akusala do not arise together, and clinging to self is akusala. The moment in which we abstain from akusala is a kusala moment, and in the following moments if we cling to a concept of self who abstains, that is an akusala moment. Panna can realize that this is not the case and that there is no self who abstains, and that is a kusala moment again. Just one moment at a time. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #126744 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:24 am Subject: Re: Death. truth_aerator Dear Nina, I am so sorry. Alex #126745 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:15 am Subject: Re: Death. kenhowardau Dear Nina, Please accept my sincere condolences. You and Lodewijk were very lucky to have each other for so long. I look forward to reading your treasured messages to DSG as soon as you are ready to continue. Ken H #126746 From: "philip" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:03 am Subject: Re: Sri Lanka revisited, Ch 2, no7 philofillet Hi Rob E Yes, what you write certainly makes sense. But things that make sense based on thinking about them logically are not always Dhamma. Dhamma is accirding to the tipitika and comnentaries and you and I share the habit of talking (i.e writing) and thinking and going on and on without actually studying any texts. (Book buying budgets, lack of discipline, whatever.) So thanks, yes, makes sense, probably correct but let's see what Nina, Sarah, or others who have properly studied the texts say. Phil #126747 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:49 am Subject: Re: Concepts and perception ptaus1 Hi Howard, > People DO remember "stories" of past lives. Key example: The Buddha > did. Perhaps then accumulation and remembrance are not the same thing. E.g. perhaps concepts don't accumulate but could be remembered? Which would then make it related to sanna again I guess. Does sanna mark concepts so as to remember/recognise them, even though they don't really exist? I don't know. Either way, I think the word used here originally for concepts was that they were "forgotten" on death, so I don't understand anymore what was meant by that. Best wishes pt #126748 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:54 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhs ptaus1 Hi KC, > KC: perplexity arise with delusion as a root condition. When perplexity is removed by sotapanna, the root condition of delusion that arise with perplexity is also removed. this is similiar to greed that arise with wrong views. All the other four greed root cittas that arise with wrong views are also eliminated by sotapanna. This is the meaning of having root-conditions removable by insight. Thanks. So if I understand right, in case of sotapana, the delusion which is the root for perplexity and wrong view is removed, but delusion which is the root for other higher fetters still remains? Best wishes pt #126749 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:02 am Subject: Re: Concepts and perception ptaus1 Hi KenH, > KH: Ultimately, there is no maths, and so, ultimately, no predispositions for maths. There can be concepts of those things, and they can be explained by other concepts – e.g., by genetic inheritance or by previous lifetimes as mathematicians – but not by conditionality. Good to have you back. Yes, I think you're right, so I guess I'm then looking for an explanation in conceptual terms. I.e. if it's said that one forgets all concepts (like maths) on death, but then it's also said that one becomes a mathematician due to previous lives as a mathematician, the two statements seem mutually exclusive to me, so there must be something I'm missing. Best wishes pt #126750 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:12 am Subject: Re: Concepts and perception ptaus1 Hi Alberto, > > pt: So, if there's a predisposition for maths or languages (some > > are clearly better at it than others), then what's that based on? > > A: I think that what we refer to as one's predispositions etc. are due to past conditions like kamma. pt: Ok, then I must be using 'predisposition' wrongly, as KenH notes as well. > > pt: Perception (sanna), however, should accumulate as it's a cetasika. > > A: I think it's sankhara khandha (formations) that accumulates, not sa~n~na khandha. pt: Ah, that's interesting. So akusala perception that arises with akusala cittas then accumulates not as perception but as ...? Not sure. > A: Neither do I, but I do remember the simile of the crow that mistakes a scarecrow for a person and gets scared (it's in visuddhimagga as well); sa~n~naa vipallaasa, distorsions, like atta-sa~n~naa, niccasa~n~naa, and sukhasa~n~naa, memory of self, of lastingness and of pleasantness. pt: So these distortions of sanna are accumulation of what exactly? > A: Sa~n~na arises with all cittas, kusala (wholesome), akusala (unwholesome), vipaaka (resultants, like bhavanga), and kiriya (functional). I think 'neutral' refers to vedana khandha. pt: Thanks, that makes sense. Best wishes pt #126751 From: "Jessica" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:48 pm Subject: Re: Death. jessicamui Dear Nina, Sorry to hear that Lodewijk passed away. It may be hard to part with a life companion. I hope that you have the strenght to live through this difficult time, and please take good care of yourself mentally and physically. No matter where Lodewijk is taking rebirth, may he be well and happy! With Much Metta, Jessica. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah and friends, > > Lodewijk died a few hours ago. The evening before I listened to > Poland at noon, about Lukas' sorrow about a dear one, Kh S: as one dies and one is reborn one cannot be the same one, one is > another instantly, one keeps on being another person. The person who > was dear to one is also another person. > > > She often says how was past life, we do not know anymore. The person > who was dear to one in past life, we do not know. > > ------- > Nina. > #126752 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:32 pm Subject: Re: Sri Lanka revisited, Ch 2, no7 rjkjp1 Good job Robert, That is exactly what Nina meant. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "epsteinrob" wrote: > > Hi Phil. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > >Nina: When we abstain > > > from akusala we may still cling to a concept of self who abstains. > > > When right understanding has been developed it realizes that it is > > > nåma that abstains, only a conditioned reality, not self. -------------- > > > > The former is still kusala, even though there is clinging to concept of self, (and therefore lobha as well, I assume)? Can there be a degree of sila that is technically speaking akusala? Or is "clinging to concept of self who abstains" kusala but without panna? > > > > Thanks Nina, only if/when you have time. > > I don't usually reply to you on these issues, but I think you may find some sense in my response this time: I would assume that these are two separate moments, since kusala and akusala do not arise together, and clinging to self is akusala. The moment in which we abstain from akusala is a kusala moment, and in the following moments if we cling to a concept of self who abstains, that is an akusala moment. Panna can realize that this is not the case and that there is no self who abstains, and that is a kusala moment again. Just one moment at a time. > > Best, > Rob E. > > - - - - - - - - - - - > #126753 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and perception upasaka_howard Hi, pt - In a message dated 9/26/2012 8:49:13 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ptaus1@... writes: Hi Howard, > People DO remember "stories" of past lives. Key example: The Buddha > did. Perhaps then accumulation and remembrance are not the same thing. E.g. perhaps concepts don't accumulate but could be remembered? ----------------------------------------------------- HCW: I understood accumulation to refer to tendencies/inclinations conditioned by past experiences, thinking, and kamma. I don't think that recollection is the same. --------------------------------------------------- Which would then make it related to sanna again I guess. Does sanna mark concepts so as to remember/recognise them, even though they don't really exist? --------------------------------------------------- HCW: Seems a certainty to me. --------------------------------------------------- I don't know. Either way, I think the word used here originally for concepts was that they were "forgotten" on death, so I don't understand anymore what was meant by that. ---------------------------------------------------- HCW: I think that for most beings that is indeed the case - forgotten at least at the surface. ------------------------------------------------------ Best wishes pt ================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #126754 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:55 pm Subject: Re: Death. jonoabb Dear All I sent the following off-list to Nina; Sarah has asked me to post it. Dear Nina I was very sorry to hear the sad news. Lodewijk was a special person to you, and also to all those who knew him well. He experienced success in worldly life, but more than that he was blessed with accumulations to consider the Dhamma which, through his involvement with your writings and with your support and encouragement, developed considerably during his lifetime. I have very fond memories of the many Dhamma trips the 4 of us shared together. He was always good company, and was able to see the humorous side of a difficult situation. He must have been a wonderful companion, especially with your many shared interests. The last few months could not have been easy for you, seeing Lodewijk's health deteriorate and yet being powerless to help. You will have had many occasions to reflect, as I am sure you still do now, on the cold truth that each person is heir to their (own) kamma. Occasions for equanimity. Yes, we had reminders in Poland of the fact that in each lifetime there is a person who is `special' for us, while the person who was `special' in the previous lifetime is completely forgotten. A sobering idea. The coming period will no doubt be a difficult one for you, but I know your firm understanding will continue to grow through it all. With my condolences Jonothan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah and friends, > > Lodewijk died a few hours ago. The evening before I listened to > Poland at noon, about Lukas' sorrow about a dear one, Kh S: as one dies and one is reborn one cannot be the same one, one is > another instantly, one keeps on being another person. The person who > was dear to one is also another person. > > > She often says how was past life, we do not know anymore. The person > who was dear to one in past life, we do not know. > > ------- > Nina. > #126755 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:34 pm Subject: Re: Sri Lanka revisited, Ch 2, no7 epsteinrob Thanks, Rob K., I appreciate it. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > Good job Robert, > That is exactly what Nina meant. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "epsteinrob" wrote: > > > > Hi Phil. > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > > >Nina: When we abstain > > > > from akusala we may still cling to a concept of self who abstains. > > > > When right understanding has been developed it realizes that it is > > > > nåma that abstains, only a conditioned reality, not self. > -------------- > > > > > > The former is still kusala, even though there is clinging to concept of self, (and therefore lobha as well, I assume)? Can there be a degree of sila that is technically speaking akusala? Or is "clinging to concept of self who abstains" kusala but without panna? > > > > > > Thanks Nina, only if/when you have time. > > > > I don't usually reply to you on these issues, but I think you may find some sense in my response this time: I would assume that these are two separate moments, since kusala and akusala do not arise together, and clinging to self is akusala. The moment in which we abstain from akusala is a kusala moment, and in the following moments if we cling to a concept of self who abstains, that is an akusala moment. Panna can realize that this is not the case and that there is no self who abstains, and that is a kusala moment again. Just one moment at a time. > > > > Best, > > Rob E. #126756 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:47 pm Subject: Re: Death. szmicio Dear Nina, While I was sitting next to Acharn on a bus, she told me few words. She told:'See. Visible objects. And sadness or whatever comes next. Never care'. This was a wonderful and helpful reminder. Best wishes Lukas #126757 From: sprlrt@... Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (6) sprlrt Dear Han and Sarah, There is a passage in AN1 atthakatha, 13. ekapuggalavaggava.n.nanaa, commenting on the Buddha explanation of the Dhamma in conventional and absolute terms; sammutidesanaa: puggalo (a person), satto (a being), itthii (a woman), puriso (a man), khattiyo (a warrior), braahma.no (a brahmin), devo (a god), maaro (the evil-one); and paramatthadesanaa (anicca.m, dukkha.m, anattaa, khandhaa, dhaatuu, aayatanaani, satipa.t.thaanaa). It compares the 'two truths' to two languages, like Tamil and Hindi, in which a teacher of a specific subject, like the Vedas, is proficient. Depending on the language his students understand better, he teaches his subject accordingly. Alberto > Dear Han, > > > From: han tun > > >S: You add a lot more detail, but I just appreciate the reminders > >that whatever > cittas arise, there is no Self, no one at all that can decide this or > that, there are just conditioned dhammas, conditioned accumulations > which lead this way or that. > > > >Han: What you said is correct from the point of paramattha saccaa. > >But in the > case of entering and emerging from Nirodha-samaapatti, the > pubba-kicca done by the meditator dictates the whole process. In that > sense there is a "doer." If the meditator does not undertake the > pubba-kicca the cittas will not arise or cease by themselves. > .... > S:Does the the pubba-kicca (preparation) consist of dhammas which are > conditioned too? For example, when we "his mind has previously > (pubbeva) been developed in such a way that it leads him to that > state.", is the text not just talking about the development of > particular cittas and cetasikas? We read a lot about different > conditions, such as natural decisive support condition, object > condition, root condition and so on - aren't these developments and > attainments occurring as a result of all the different conditions? > Similarly, the cittas with lobha now, the determinations now, the > little wisdom arising now, are also arising by conditions, not any > "doer". ... > >I think we have to make a balance between paramattha sacca and > >sammuti saccaa. > > ... > S: I agree that we need to use sammuti sacca in our daily life and we > can talk about a "doer" and "actions" and so on. However, isn't the > purpose of all such Teachings to help the development of > understanding of paramattha dhammas as being the "all" in truth, the > "all" as anatta dhammas? #126758 From: han tun Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (6) hantun1 Dear Alberto (and Sarah), Thank you very much for your post. As I have said Sarah is right in the sense of paramattha saccaa. But I cannot be like Sarah, as I am still very much atta-oriented. However, it will lead nowhere if I insist on what I think. Besides, although younger than me I consider Sarah as my senior Dhamma partner. So I will be happy with whatever Sarah said. with metta and respect, Han --- On Thu, 9/27/12, sprlrt@... wrote: It compares the 'two truths' to two languages, like Tamil and Hindi, in which a teacher of a specific subject, like the Vedas, is proficient. Depending on the language his students understand better, he teaches his subject accordingly. #126759 From: han tun Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:26 pm Subject: Tranquility and Insight (2) hantun1 Dear Friends, AN 2.3 Baala vagga, 32. Translated by Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi. Source: An Anthology of Suttas from the A"nguttara Nikaaya. 32. "Dve me, bhikkhave, dhammaa vijjaabhaagiyaa. Katame dve? Samatho ca vipassanaa ca. Two things, O monks, partake of supreme knowledge. [Note 3] What two? Tranquility and Insight. [Note 4] [Note 3] Vijjaabhaagiyaa; that is, they are constituents of supreme knowledge (vijjaa). This may refer either to the three true knowledge (tevijjaa), often mentioned in the discourses: (1) the knowledge of recollection of former births; (2) the knowledge of the passing away and rebirth of beings; and (3) the knowledge of the destruction of the taints, i.e. the attainment of arahantship; or it may refer to an eightfold divisions: (1) insight knowledge (vipassanaa-~naa.na), (2) the power of creating a mind-made body (manomayaa iddhi); (3)-(8) the six direct knowledge (abhi~n~naa). [Note 4] Tranquility (samatha) is concentration culminating in the jhaanas, being supremely tranquil and peaceful states; insight (vipassanaa), according to AA, is "the knowledge comprehending the formations" (sa"nkhaara-pariggaahaka-~naa.na) as impermanent, suffering and non-self. --------------- Samatho, bhikkhave, bhaavito kamattha manubhoti? Citta.m bhaaviiyati. Citta.m bhaavita.m kamatthamanubhoti? Yo raago so pahiiyati. If tranquility is developed, what benefits does it bring? The mind becomes developed. And what is the benefit of a developed mind? All lust are abandoned. [Note 5] [Note 5] When tranquility is developed independently of insight, it brings about the suppression of the five hindrances, the first of which is sensual lust, and issues in the "higher mind" of the jhaanas, characterized by the absence of lust. But it is only when tranquility is developed in conjunction with insight that it can give rise to the noble path, which eradicates the underlying tendency to sensual lust (by the path of non-returning)and attachment to becoming (by the path of arahantship). AA interprets tranquility here in this second sense -- presumably on account of the last sentence of the sutta -- and explains: "The mind becomes developed into the path-consciousness (magga-citta). Lust (raaga) becomes abandoned because it is opposed to (incompatible with) path-consciousness, and the path is incompatible with lust. At a moment of lust there is no path-consciousness; and at the path-moment there is no lust. When lust arises, it obstructs the arising of the path-moment, cutting off its basis; but when the path arises it uproots and eradicates lust." --------------- Vipassanaa, bhikkhave, bhaavitaa kamatthamanubhoti? Pa~n~naa bhaaviiyati. Pa~n~naa bhaavitaa kamatthamanubhoti? Yaa avijjaa saa pahiiyati. If insight is developed, what benefits does it bring? Wisdom becomes developed. And what is the benefit of developed wisdom? All ignorance is abandoned. [Note 6] [Note 6] AA: "It is the path-wisdom (magga-pa~n~naa) that becomes developed, i.e. it is expanded and augmented. The "ignorance abandoned" is the great ignorance at the root of the cycle of existence. Ignorance is incompatible with path-wisdom, and path-wisdom is incompatible with ignorance. At a moment of ignorance there is no path-wisdom, and at a moment of path-wisdom there cannot be ignorance. When ignorance arises, it obstructs the arising of path-wisdom and cuts off its basis; but when path-wisdom arises it uproots and eradicates ignorance. In this way, two coexistent phenomena have been dealt with here: path-consciousness (magga-citta) and path-wisdom (magga-pa~n~naa)." --------------- Raagupakkili.t.tha.m vaa, bhikkhave, citta.m na vimuccati, avijjupakkili.t.thaa vaa pa~n~naa bhaaviiyati. Iti kho, bhikkhave, raagaviraagaa cetovimutti, avijjaaviraagaa pa~n~naavimuttii"ti. A mind defiled by lust is not free; and wisdom defiled by ignorance cannot develop. Thus, monks, through the fading away of lust there is liberation of mind; and through the fading away of ignorance there is liberation by wisdom. [Note 7] [Note 7] Arahantship is often described as "taintless liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom" (anaasava-cetovimutti-pa~n~naavimutti). AA explains "liberation of mind" as the concentration connected with the fruit (of arahantship; phala-samaadhi), "liberation by wisdom" (pa~n~naavimutti) as the wisdom connected with the fruit. --------------- with metta, Han #126760 From: "azita" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:08 pm Subject: Re: Death. gazita2002 Dear Nina, so sad to hear of Lodewijk's passing on, I imagine its a lot more sad for you. It's hard to think of the one we love being a totally different being following cuti citta, and yet this will happen to each and everyone of us, without exception - well, arahant is an exception. Patience, courage and good cheer azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah and friends, > > Lodewijk died a few hours ago. The evening before I listened to > Poland at noon, about Lukas' sorrow about a dear one, Kh S: as one dies and one is reborn one cannot be the same one, one is > another instantly, one keeps on being another person. The person who > was dear to one is also another person. > > > She often says how was past life, we do not know anymore. The person > who was dear to one in past life, we do not know. > > ------- > Nina. > #126761 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:01 am Subject: Re: Concepts and perception kenhowardau Hi Pt, ---- > Pt: <. . .> the two statements seem mutually exclusive to me, so there must be something I'm missing. ---- KH: I think you were asking some valid questions about sanna and I confused the issue (by reminding you that concepts were just concepts). Does sanna recognise concepts from earlier in this lifetime but not objects from previous lifetimes? As usual I don't know the answers but, as usual, I am prepared to guess: Bhavanga cittas restrict sense-door cittas to the current lifetime, don't they? We don't suddenly go back to another world that we were in long ago. So it is the bhavanga cittas that restrict sanna to objects that have been experienced in this lifetime. Ken H #126762 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:52 am Subject: Can Unwholesome universals be without thought? truth_aerator Dear all, I have this question. At the moment when there are no thoughts, can there be unwholesome universal qualities? Can there be delusion, shamelessness, fearlessness of wrong, or restlessness without thinking? Thanks, With best wishes, Alex #126763 From: sprlrt@... Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:57 pm Subject: Re: Concepts and perception sprlrt Hi pt, I'm posting Visuddhimagga on sa~n~naa, with Nina's comments and translation of its tiika which I've found helpful. Alberto 40794 From: nina Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 2:34am Subject: Visuddhimagga XIV, 129 and Tiika Visuddhimagga XIV, 129 and Tiika THE PERCEPTION AGGREGATE] N: (....) Sa~n~naa cetasika accompanies each citta and thus, it is different as it 'marks' and remembers different objects, it can be of different jaatis or classes (kusala, akusala, vipaaka or kiriya) and of different planes of citta, namely of the sensuous plane, of the plane of ruupa-jhaanacitta, of aruupa-jhaanacitta or of lokuttara citta. The object sañaa marks and remembers may be citta, cetasika, ruupa and nibbaana, and also concepts, paññatti. Whatever object citta cognizes, sa~n~naa marks and remembers it. ***** Text Vis. XIV, 129: Now it was said above, 'Whatever has the characteristic of perceiving should be understood, all taken together, as the perception aggregate' (par.81). N: The Tiika states that what was said of the feeling khandha must be applied to sa~n~naa khandha. The cetasika savaa is a separate khandha just as the cetasika feeling. As to the words 'all taken together' (sabba.m ta.m ekato katvaa), we read in the Tiika to Vis. 81: N: The khandhas are classified as past, present, future, and in several other ways. The Tiika to Vis. 81: < "Characteristic of perceiving" means that its characteristic is the perceiving of an object classed as blue, etc., and the knowing, the apprehending of it by arousing the perception of it as blue, yellow, long, short, and so on. > Text Vis: And here too, what is said to have the characteristic of perceiving is perception itself, according as it is said, 'It perceives, friend, that is why it is called perception' (m.i,293). N: Just as in the case of the khandha of consciousness and of feeling, the Vis. refers to M.N. I, 43, which is a dialogue between Maha-Ko.t.thita and Saariputta. Saariputtaa explains: 'it perceives, it perceives, friend, that is why it is called perception.' Here what is said by the Tiika about feeling can also be applied to sa~n~naa. The Tiika (to Vis. XIV, 81) states with regard to feeling: The explanation of the action should be understood as follows: there is no doer apart from the dhamma with its own characteristic (Sabhaavadhammato a~n~no kattaa natthiiti dassanattha.m kattuniddeso). We are inclined to take sa~n~naa for self, but there is no doer apart from the dhamma which is sa~n~naa with the characteristic of marking and remembering. Text Vis: But though it is singlefold according to its individual essence as the characteristic of perceiving, it is nevertheless threefold as to kind, that is to say, profitable, unprofitable, and indeterminate. Herein, that associated with profitable consciousness is 'profitable', that associated with unprofitable consciousness is 'unprofitable', and that associated with indeterminate consciousness is 'indeterminate'. Since there is no consciousness dissociated from perception, perception therefore has the same number of divisions as consciousness [that is to say, eighty-nine]. N: The Tiika emphasizes that there is no citta that is dissociated from sa~n~naa. Sa~n~naa marks the object that is cognized by citta so that it can be recognized. Since it accompanies all eightynine cittas, it is different in each case. As the Vis. states: it can be kusala, akusala or indeterminate, including vipaaka and kiriya. When samatha is developed, sa~n~naa marks and remembers the meditation subject of samatha. When one listens to the Dhamma sa~n~naa assists the kusala citta that arises at that moment. Firm remembrance of the Dhamma that is heard is the proximate cause of sati of satipa.t.thaana which is mindful of naama and ruupa. ***** Nina. 41029 From: nina Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:40am Subject: Visuddhimagga XIV, 130, and Tiika Visuddhimagga XIV, 130, and Tiika Text Vis. : But though classed in the same way as consciousness, nevertheless, as to characteristic, etc., it all has just the characteristic of perceiving. N: The Tiika adds that sa~n~naa can be of four planes of consciousness (catubhuumika). Thus, depending on the citta it accompanies, it can be of the sensuous plane, of the planes of ruupajhaana and aruupajhaana, and it can also be supramundane, lokuttara. The Tiika adds that its characteristic is the perceiving of an object classed as blue, etc. Text Vis.: Its function is to make a sign as a condition for perceiving again that 'this is the same', as carpenters, etc., do in the case of timber, and so on. N: Sa~n~naa marks the object so that it can be recognized later on. Just as carpenters make a sign on timber so that they can recognize it later on. They see that 'this is the same' (tadeva.m ti). The Tiika states that making a mark or label is the condition for perceiving the object again, for remembering or recognizing it. Every sa~n~naa should be interpreted in a similar way. Text Vis: It is manifested as the action of interpreting by means of the sign as apprehended, like the blind who 'see' an elephant. (Ud. 68-69). N: The Vis. refers to a story in the Udana, about blind people who 'see' an elephant when touching different parts of it. Each of them interpretes differently what an elephant is. The person who touches the head thinks that the elephant is like a pot, and so on. Text Vis: Its proximate cause is an objective field in whatever way that appears, like the perception that arises in fauns that see scarecrows as men. N: The Tiika adds to the proximate cause, 'an object in whatever way that appears', that this is without thinking or consideration (avikappa). Thus, sa~n~naa performs its task of remembering or recognition without thinking about about the object that appears. Just as the fauns that see scarecrows as men. The Tiika states that sa~n~naa accompanied by pa~n~naa follows, complies with understanding, that it interpretes with pa~n~naa (tasmaa abhinivesakaarikaa), and that it does not apprehend wrongly. Sa~n~naa can be accompanied by samaadhi, and the Tiika states that this is not for a short time (acira.t.thaana). When samatha is developed, sa~n~naa has to perform its function for a long time. It has to mark and remember again and again the meditation subject, such as a colour kasina. In this way the meditator can acquire a mental image (nimitta) of it. He does not have to look at it again in order to remember it. When he is more advanced and calm has grown he can attain absorption with this subject. But it takes a long time, it is not easy. The Tiika states that sa~n~naa which accompanies desire, wrong view, conceit and other defilements follows (anuvattika) or complies with those defilements. In that case sa~n~naa is akusala and remembers wrongly. Vis. text: This is the section of the detailed explanation dealing with the perception aggregate. **** Conclusion: We read in the Dialogues of the Buddha II, Mahaa-parinibbaana sutta, D II, 79, that the Buddha spoke about seven conditons for welfare: the realization of right remembrance of impermanence (aniccaa-sa~n~naa), remembrance of non-self (anattaa-sa~n~naa), of the absence of corruption, of the danger of wrong thoughts, of the necessity of getting rid of them, of purity of heart, of nibbaana. The Commentary to this sutta explains that aniccaa-sa~n~na is sa~n~naa arisen with awareness or recollection of aniccaa (aniccaanupassanaaya). The same is true of anattaa-sa~n~naa and so on. Thus this refers to vipassanaa. Because of wrong view one has wrong remembrance of self, attaa-sa~n~naa, or one takes realities for permanent, and that is niccaa-sa~n~naa. Sa~n~naa accompanies each citta, and when it accompanies wrong view it is conditioned by wrong view. One may think of persons or things, there is the association of different impressions into a 'whole'; one takes persons and things for permanent and 'self'. Seeing or hearing seem to be lasting. One fails to understand that there are only impersonal elements which arise and fall away. Sa~n~naa 'follows' wrong view. Whereas, when sa~n~naa accompanies right understanding, it is conditioned by pa~n~naa and thus, it is completely different. It follows or complies with pa~n~naa. Right understanding knows that seeing and hearing arise because of their appropriate conditions and that they have to fall away. It knows that dhammas appear through the six doors, one at a time, and that they do not last. When right understanding is developed there will be, instead of wrong remembrance, right remembrance: anattaa-sa~n~naa and aniccaa-sa~n~naa. **** Nina. #126764 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:11 pm Subject: Re: Death. sarahprocter... Dear NIna and Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > While I was sitting next to Acharn on a bus, she told me few words. She told:'See. Visible objects. And sadness or whatever comes next. Never care'. This was a wonderful and helpful reminder. ... S: "Let it come...!' She also talked about the courage needed to let go of the impermanent reality before there can be the letting go of the idea of self completely. Whatever dhamma comes, whether it be seeing, visible object, thinking, pleasant or unpleasant feeling, it is not self - just an element. The understanding of death should be now, she said - the visible object or sound which falls away at this very moment. NIna, very best wishes for the funeral today. A very special occasion and yet, "just like now" - seeing, visible object, thinking - "dhammada", ordinary realities. Metta Sarah ====== #126765 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:35 pm Subject: Re: Concepts and perception sarahprocter... Hi Alberto, Pt & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sprlrt@... wrote: > I think that what we refer to as one's predispositions etc. are due to past conditions like kamma. .... S: Due to pakatu upanissaya paccaya (natural decisive support condition) primarily. This is how tendencies are accumulated. All interests, attachments, aversions, understandings accumulated in this way. Also wrong view, ignorance and so on - the cittas and cetasikas accumulated in the javana processes. Seeing, hearing and vipaka cittas are conditioned by kamma, not tendencies. .... Pt: > > Perception (sanna), however, should accumulate as it's a cetasika. > > I'm confused on the relationship between sanna and concepts, and in > > particular, marking that sanna does, and concepts. Somehow in my > > head, marking should be based on concepts. Is it, really? > A: > I think it's sankhara khandha (formations) that accumulates, not sa~n~na khandha. ... S: All vedana, sanna, sankhara khandha cetasikas are accumulated. Sometimes we just refer to sankhara khandha because this includes most cetasikas. However, sanna is also accumulated whenever it arises in the javana processes marking and remembering this or that object, marking the signs of what has just been seen or heard. This is why sanna is referred to as 'the sign-maker". If it weren't for the accumulation of sanna marking the various signs and details, there wouldn't be the thinking about what has been seen and heard. Without reality, no nimitta, without nimitta no concepts. Each citta needs sanna to mark its object, whether it be reality or concept. The sanna accumulates, not the concepts, but it is the marking and remembering of particular signs, particular concepts now which leads to mark and remembering the same later. For example, we hear a name - many moments of thinking with sanna, vitakka and manasikara so that the name is recalled later. However, usually there's no remembering what we heard when we were young, the details are forgotten and no memory of the names from last life. K.Sujin was reminding us about how there is remembering of the taste of the meal for just a short time and then later it's forgotten, no conditions for sanna to remember. The same with what is seen or heard - it's soon forgotten. ... PT:> > And do the "marks" accumulate (or should it be "marking", not > > "marks")? Er, for that matter, I have no clue how to understand > > "marks/marking" really. Yes, there's the simile of a carpenter that > > marks different pieces of wood, but I don't really get it. > A:> Neither do I, but I do remember the simile of the crow that mistakes a scarecrow for a person and gets scared (it's in visuddhimagga as well); sa~n~naa vipallaasa, distorsions, like atta-sa~n~naa, niccasa~n~naa, and sukhasa~n~naa, memory of self, of lastingness and of pleasantness. .... S: Only javana cittas and cetasikas accumulate. The "marks", the signs are thought about. Just as the carpenter marks the different trees so that they can be found or remembered later, so sanna marks tastes, visible objects, sounds or concepts so that there will be the recalling of them later, depending on so many factors. This is how we can type or read or learn a language. Sanna vipallassa (perversion of sanna) arises with each akusala citta. The sotapanna eradicates atta sanna and nicca sanna (perversion of sanna with regard to self and permanence), but still sanna vipallassa whenever any cittas rooted in lobha, dosa or moha arise. ... Pt:> > Further, sanna as a cetasika should also be right and wrong when it's > > arising with javana cittas, right? But, when it is arising with other > > cittas like vipaka cittas and bhavanga cittas, is it "neutral" > > somehow? Thanks. > A:> Sa~n~na arises with all cittas, kusala (wholesome), akusala (unwholesome), vipaaka (resultants, like bhavanga), and kiriya (functional). I think 'neutral' refers to vedana khandha. ... S: When sanna arises in the javana process it's kusala or akusala (or kiriya in the case of the arahat). When it arises with vipaka cittas (inc. bhavanga cittas), it's vipaka only. The vipaka is referred to as kusala or akusala vipaka, but this just refers to the kind of kamma (kusala or akusala) which conditioned that vipaka. The vipaka itself is not kusala or akusala. Vipaka cittas may be accompanied by pleasant, unpleasant or neutral feeling, depending. For example, seeing is accompanied by neutral feeling, bodily consciousness is accompanied by pleasant or unpleasant feeling. In any case at all, with any citta at all, the sanna arises, marks and remembers the object and falls away. Metta Sarah p.s just seen (but not read) that you've posted a helpful quote from Vism and Nina's comments, so this may have all been clarified by now. ===== #126766 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death. nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 28-sep-2012, om 9:11 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > NIna, very best wishes for the funeral today. A very special > occasion and yet, "just like now" - seeing, visible object, > thinking - "dhammada", ordinary realities. ------ N:Thank you. I certainly will keep in mind: just like now. I was so shocked about before, but later on appreciated. Life is only in one moment is helpful to remember. Sadness is also among the ordinary realities, it just depends on the moment. When I said to you: here every one is very supportive, I meant: here, on dsg. ----- Nina. #126767 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:02 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Death. sarahprocter... Dear Nina & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > N:Thank you. I certainly will keep in mind: just like now. I was so > shocked about before, but later on appreciated. Life is only in one > moment is helpful to remember. Sadness is also among the ordinary > realities, it just depends on the moment. ... S: And it's unpredictable - we have all sorts of ideas and expectations, but we never know what dhamma will arise or appear next. Who can stop seeing, hearing, even happy or sad feeling from arising? As I mentioned at Phra D's funeral - one minute I was in tears, the next smiling after being reminded about clinging to my own pleasant feeling. ... > When I said to you: here every one is very supportive, I meant: here, > on dsg. ... S: Now I understand your comment. The best support is always from understanding Dhamma friends. And this is daily life - all that we have read and studied in the texts is just for the understanding of the present dhammas as anatta, no matter when or where. "Don't underestimate kamma" - it can produce its result anytime, anyway. Death could be the next moment, so the death moment should be the moment of right understanding now", K.Sujin told me. Very deep. One moment at a time - no expectations, "just like now". When it's the right time for you, we'll be glad to hear a brief report of the ceremony and the dhamma reminders you find helpful. Please accept all our dhamma wishes in place of flowers. As Howard often quotes: "Just as a dewdrop on the tip of a blade of grass quickly vanishes with the rising of the sun and does not stay long, in the same way, brahmans, the life of human beings is like a dewdrop - limited, trifling, of much stress & many despairs. One should touch this [truth] like a sage, do what is skillful, follow the holy life. For one who is born there is no freedom from death." Metta and warmest wishes Sarah ====== #126768 From: "azita" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:03 pm Subject: Re: Death. gazita2002 Hallo Nina, Sarah and all, Have been thinking about death quite a bit lately as there has been a number of people I know and know of who have passed on. It is jst like now isnt it? Cittas arising and falling, one following another without a break, and it is only our mistaken view that it is my friend etc that has gone. This is not to make light of yr pain, Nina, bec even listening to dhamma and having some knowledge of how realities behave, does not make the loss of Lodewijk any easier for you, I feel sure. Until stages of enlightenment are reached there will be conditions for us to suffer, again and again, because of our ignorance and attachments. may all beings be happy azita - > > While I was sitting next to Acharn on a bus, she told me few words. She told:'See. Visible objects. And sadness or whatever comes next. Never care'. This was a wonderful and helpful reminder. > ... > S: "Let it come...!' > > She also talked about the courage needed to let go of the impermanent reality before there can be the letting go of the idea of self completely. Whatever dhamma comes, whether it be seeing, visible object, thinking, pleasant or unpleasant feeling, it is not self - just an element. > > The understanding of death should be now, she said - the visible object or sound which falls away at this very moment. > > NIna, very best wishes for the funeral today. A very special occasion and yet, "just like now" - seeing, visible object, thinking - "dhammada", ordinary realities. > > Metta > > Sarah > ====== > #126769 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:11 pm Subject: Re: Death. szmicio Dear Sarah, > > While I was sitting next to Acharn on a bus, she told me few words. She told:'See. Visible objects. And sadness or whatever comes next. Never care'. This was a wonderful and helpful reminder. > ... > S: "Let it come...!' > > She also talked about the courage needed to let go of the impermanent reality before there can be the letting go of the idea of self completely. Whatever dhamma comes, whether it be seeing, visible object, thinking, pleasant or unpleasant feeling, it is not self - just an element. L: Tell it to Sumanaa, Sarah! Best wishes Lukas #126770 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions for understanding to arise sarahprocter... Dear Jagkrit, (Alex, Wojtek, Alberto, Pt & all), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" wrote: > > However, I wonder where is the fine line between substantial thinking vs delirious thinking? What is the criterion we can use as awareness during reading or discussing dhamma which can be self reminder when no one around to keep us in the line? ... S: Only pa~n~naa can know - whenever there is sa~n~naa vipallassa, perversion of sa~n~naa, with any akusala cittas, it's "delirious". Like whenever there's trying to get anything for oneself or whenever there is the idea of thing or person, it's there. Here's an extract from the Mulapariyaaya Sutta commentary, MN1 (transl by B.Bodhi): "..it is said: 'he perceives as a segment of earth.' 'Seizing upon the conventional expression': in this way the commentator shows that the perception of characteristic earth also occurs through the medium of the conventional expression. "Objection: If the conventional expression is applied, what is the fault? Don't ariyans also make use of the conventional expression, as when they say: 'This, venerable sir, is the great earth.' etc? "Reply: It is not the mere employment of the expression that is intended here, but the wrong adherence which occurs through the conventional expression. Thus he says: 'he perceives through a perversion of perception.' This is the meaning: He perceives it as beautiful, etc., through a perverted perception springing from unwise reflection. By this, weak conceiving through craving, conceit and views is shown. "If so, it may be asked, why is perception mentioned? Because it is evident. Just as, when a fire is smoldering and smoke is seen, although the fire still exists, we say 'there is smoke' rather than 'there is fire,' because the smoke is more evident; in an analogous way, although conceiving is already exercising its function (in this perception), this function is not distinct. The function of perception alone is distinct, for perception is more evident. But this perception accords with the conceiving and works in conjunction with the latter; therefore he says: 'he perceives through a perversion of perception.' And when it is said that he perceives it thinking 'it is earth,' he means that, without releasing a segment of earth from among these four kinds, he perceives what is in its true nature devoid of self, etc., as endowed with a self, etc., like one perceiving a lump on the head as a piece of gold." ... S: Anytime the pathavii dhaatu, the hardness/softness/tangible object experienced is perceived as some thing, not an element or dhamma, there is atta sa~n~naa. "Having perceived earth thus with a perverted perception, the worldling afterwards conceives it, i.e., construes or discriminates it, through the strengthened proliferating tendencies of craving, conceit, and views, which are here called 'conceivings' (aparabhaage thaamapatthi ta.nhaamaanadi.t.thipapa~ncehi idha ma~n~nanaanaamena vuttehi ma~n~nati kappeti vikappeti). This accords with the statement: 'Concepts due to proliferation are grounded upon perception' (su~n~naanidaanaa hi papa~ncasa"nkhaa, Sn 874). He apprehends it in diverse ways contrary (to reality) (naanappakaarato a~n~nathaa ga.haati)." .... S: Through the conceiving, through the marking by sa~n~naa to the signs and details (nimitta anubya~ncana) with lobha and di.t.thi, reality is not seen as it is. When there is the development of understanding and awareness, gradually there is not so much of the usual attending to all these details with more and more lobha proliferation. Gradually the nimitta of reality is understood. Metta Sarah ====== #126771 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:39 pm Subject: Re: Death. sarahprocter... Hi Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > S: "Let it come...!' > > > > She also talked about the courage needed to let go of the impermanent reality before there can be the letting go of the idea of self completely. Whatever dhamma comes, whether it be seeing, visible object, thinking, pleasant or unpleasant feeling, it is not self - just an element. > > L: Tell it to Sumanaa, Sarah! .... S: :) Sumanaa had the courage to let go of impermanent realities and any idea of self. Without this understanding of dhammas as impermanent and anatta she couldn't have become a sotapanna. Whatever arose, she knew these were just dhatus, just dhamams. However, as Ann said in the comment Phil picked up on, this doesn't mean that there won't be a lot of unpleasant feeling conditioned by attachment. Only an anagami has no more attachment to sensuous objects and therefore no more dosa and domanassa. And really, no Sumanaa, no Lukas, no Sarah. Just conditioned dhammas arising and falling away. "Let it come" means, no one can stop or change what is conditioned to arise now. We find pleasant feeling so important, but any conditioned dhamma falls away as soon as it has arisen and no feeling is of any consequence. As Ajahn said, life may seem difficult now, but it's nothing to what lies in store - unimaginable pains and hardships. Now is the time to develop understanding. No excuse!! Metta Sarah ===== #126772 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:56 pm Subject: Re: Death. szmicio Dear Sarah, Arent you lead by your own memory? panna is not sanna. There is no particular way to understand. But sanna and thoughts comes in. Siila can help more than any words. Best wishes Lukas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Lukas, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > > > S: "Let it come...!' > > > > > > She also talked about the courage needed to let go of the impermanent reality before there can be the letting go of the idea of self completely. Whatever dhamma comes, whether it be seeing, visible object, thinking, pleasant or unpleasant feeling, it is not self - just an element. > > > > L: Tell it to Sumanaa, Sarah! > .... > S: :) Sumanaa had the courage to let go of impermanent realities and any idea of self. Without this understanding of dhammas as impermanent and anatta she couldn't have become a sotapanna. Whatever arose, she knew these were just dhatus, just dhamams. > > However, as Ann said in the comment Phil picked up on, this doesn't mean that there won't be a lot of unpleasant feeling conditioned by attachment. Only an anagami has no more attachment to sensuous objects and therefore no more dosa and domanassa. > > And really, no Sumanaa, no Lukas, no Sarah. > > Just conditioned dhammas arising and falling away. "Let it come" means, no one can stop or change what is conditioned to arise now. We find pleasant feeling so important, but any conditioned dhamma falls away as soon as it has arisen and no feeling is of any consequence. > > As Ajahn said, life may seem difficult now, but it's nothing to what lies in store - unimaginable pains and hardships. Now is the time to develop understanding. > > No excuse!! > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > #126773 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:00 pm Subject: Re: Dhs sarahprocter... Hi Pt, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > One more thing, would it be right to conclude that eradication here is referring to dhammas other than roots, so not roots themselves? It's a bit confusing - Rhys Davids translates triplet 9 as: > > 9. States the moral roots of which are to be put away by vision; culture; by neither. ... S: >9. (ka) dassanena pahaatabbahetukaa dhammaa. >(kha) bhaavanaaya pahaatabbahetukaa dhammaa. >(ga) neva dassanena na bhaavanaaya pahaatabbahetukaa dhammaa. ... Here it's referring to dhammas with root causes eliminated by the sotapatti magga etc. So it is particular dhammas with roots that are eradicated, not the roots. As I mentioned, in the first case there are 12 kinds of akusala cittas. Of these, 4 kinds rooted in moha and lobha (i.e the four kinds with wrong view) plus one kind rooted in moha only (the one with doubt) are eradicated by the sotapanna. All the other kinds of akusala cittas are eradicated by the higher maggas. So the text isn't saying that lobha and moha are eradicated, but those kinds of dhamma rooted in lobha and moha, accompanied by wrong view are eradicated, plus the kind of moha with doubt. >pt: I guess I don't understand what is the meaning of "Dhammaa with root causes", as opposed to just "Dhammaa". ... S: Like any kind of attachment arising now has lobha as a root cause, but clearly the lobha arising of the degree that likes the color of the wallpaper is not the same as the lobha of the degree that goes out to steal the neighbor's possessions. Same root cause, but the grosser kinds of lobha will be eradicated first. ... > So, it seems the emphasis here is on eradication of roots. And yet, if I'm not mistaken, I don't think any of the roots are actually eradicated by sotapatti magga ("vision" in her translation). Unless perhaps there are different sorts of moha for example, so with sotapatti magga, the kinds of moha that accompany wrong view and doubt are eradicated, but other kinds of moha (those that accompany other higher fetters) are not yet eradicated? ... S: Right, moha with doubt is eradicated first. Even an anagami has not eradicated moha, but certainly no doubt at all, not even for a sotapanna. Only three roots, but 12 kinds of akusala cittas, seven latent tendencies etc. So it's referring to the kinds of akusala cittas or the latent tendencies that are eradicated. As you say, moha and lobha only eradicated completely by the arahat and dosa by the anagami. ... > pt: So, I guess then the only point of triplet 9 is to draw attention to the fact that the fetters have roots? ... S: Before the text was talking about dhammas in general, now it's specifically talking about dhammas with roots. isn't this the way the texts work? Often talking about the broad categories, i.e. kusala, akusala, abyakattha dhammas, and then talking about subsets when the general categories are understood? This is why we have to understand what dhamma is now before we can understand what kusala or akusala dhamma is. Likewise, nly when we understand what dhamma is can we understand what dhamma with roots is. What do you think? Metta Sarah ==== #126774 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:14 pm Subject: Re: Death. sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > Arent you lead by your own memory? ... S: There is sanna arising at every single moment - not yours or mine or anyone else's. ... > panna is not sanna. .... S: Right - when there's panna, no thought of 'me' and 'my unpleasant feelings' - just dhammas. .... > There is no particular way to understand. But sanna and thoughts comes in. Siila can help more than any words. ... S: Understanding what appears now is what helps - whatever the reality, whether seeing, visible object, pleasant, unpleasant feeling, ditthi, sila, metta - any dhamma at all. Metta Sarah p.s the Milinda texts were sent to yr add. Pls let us know when they arrive:-) > >S: Just conditioned dhammas arising and falling away. "Let it come" means, no one can stop or change what is conditioned to arise now. We find pleasant feeling so important, but any conditioned dhamma falls away as soon as it has arisen and no feeling is of any consequence. > > > > As Ajahn said, life may seem difficult now, but it's nothing to what lies in store - unimaginable pains and hardships. Now is the time to develop understanding. > > > > No excuse!! #126775 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:23 pm Subject: AN transl by Bodhi - very briefly sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Just this minute received our copy of the new AN translation and a thick, beautiful volume it is too. All I've done in haste, since posting my last message, is to check what he's done with the commentary note to the Luminous Sutta - I'd decided this would be my check:) Anyway, the very good news is that the commentary explanation is given in full. BB then goes on to add an extra page of reasoning as to why he finds the commentary explanation problematic. Fair enough - it's made very clear which is commentary and which is his personal comment. Often, I think, just a commentary summary is given when he doesn't find it controversial. Lots of notes. At a very brief glance, highly recommended like his other translations of Pitaka texts. metta Sarah ====== #126776 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:28 pm Subject: Re: Death. szmicio Dear Sarah, Why u telling that? There is a difference in encouraging someone to dhamma and just remembering things with all kinds of akusala. You destryed my private life when you came to Poland. Leaded by your own memory. Best wishes Lukas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Lukas, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > > Arent you lead by your own memory? > ... > S: There is sanna arising at every single moment - not yours or mine or anyone else's. > ... > > panna is not sanna. > .... > S: Right - when there's panna, no thought of 'me' and 'my unpleasant feelings' - just dhammas. > .... > > There is no particular way to understand. But sanna and thoughts comes in. Siila can help more than any words. > ... > S: Understanding what appears now is what helps - whatever the reality, whether seeing, visible object, pleasant, unpleasant feeling, ditthi, sila, metta - any dhamma at all. > > Metta > > Sarah > > p.s the Milinda texts were sent to yr add. Pls let us know when they arrive:-) > > > > >S: Just conditioned dhammas arising and falling away. "Let it come" means, no one can stop or change what is conditioned to arise now. We find pleasant feeling so important, but any conditioned dhamma falls away as soon as it has arisen and no feeling is of any consequence. > > > > > > As Ajahn said, life may seem difficult now, but it's nothing to what lies in store - unimaginable pains and hardships. Now is the time to develop understanding. > > > > > > No excuse!! > #126777 From: "philip" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:39 pm Subject: Old people have more lobha? philofillet Hello all A bit surprised, somehow, to hear A.Sujin say that old people have more lobha, it accumulates in a way that makes old people full of it, so to speak. Surely it's case by case, depending on which degree condtions lead to moments of understanding and detachment. If life is just one citta, if understanding can arise at any moment due to conditions,why does A.Sujin talk of such a predictable pattern of accumulation? Asking about it is just another delirious thinking feeder, I guess. phil #126778 From: "philip" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:46 pm Subject: Re: Sri Lanka revisited, Ch 2, no7 philofillet Hi Rob E > > > I don't usually reply to you on these issues, but I think you may find some sense in my response this time: I would assume that these are two separate moments, since kusala and akusala do not arise together, and clinging to self is akusala. The moment in which we abstain from akusala is a kusala moment, and in the following moments if we cling to a concept of self who abstains, that is an akusala moment. Panna can realize that this is not the case and that there is no self who abstains, and that is a kusala moment again. Just one moment at a time. I see your explanation got a valuable stamp of approval. I can now consume it with confidence, and thank you again. Please understand if I continue to use this system for your responses to my posts, and those of anyone else who doesn't study tipitika and commentaries seriously and place trust in them. (Including me of course, I assume my opinion on Dhamma is crapola until informed otherwise, I am the anti-Kalaman.) Phil #126779 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:49 pm Subject: Re: Death. sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > You destryed my private life when you came to Poland. Leaded by your own memory. ... I'm sorry you feel like this. I have no idea what you're referring to. It's a pity you didn't mention this to me when I was in Poland and we could have discussed it. I've always had your best interests at heart. Metta Sarah ===== #126780 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:56 pm Subject: Re: Death. szmicio Dear Sarah, > > You destryed my private life when you came to Poland. Leaded by your own memory. > ... > I'm sorry you feel like this. I have no idea what you're referring to. It's a pity you didn't mention this to me when I was in Poland and we could have discussed it. L: Unfortuantely it happened. Best wishes Lukas #126781 From: "philip" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:40 pm Subject: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (19) (Citta and cetasika) philofillet Dear Group Pt. II of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket continued: "When citta arises and congnises an object through one of the six doors, what kind of feeling is there? Pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling and indifferent feeling are not the reality that is citta. They are types of cetasikas (mental factors) that Buddha has called 'vedaana cetasikas', the cetasikas that are feeling. Citta as well as cetasika are naama, but citta is the 'chief', the 'leader', in knowing an object. Citta is different from vedanaa cetasika, which feels pleasant, unpleasant or indifferent about the object that is appearing. Dhammas that arise cannot arise singly, they are dependent on other dhammas that arise simultaneously with them and that condition them. Citta must arise simultaneously with the cetasikas and cetasikas must arise simultaneously with the citta. Citta and cetasikas that arise together fall away together. They experience the same object and they arise and fall away at the same physical base. Each citta that arises is conditioned by different cetasikas that accompany it. Each citta performs a different function and thus there is a great diversity of types of cittas." (56-57) (end of passage) ph: We might think that our understanding can distinguish citta and cetasika, but isn't that one of the stages of insight? Do I have that wrong? It seems to me that all naama is a soup with ingredients that only the Buddha can distinguish, and perhaps there is a simile to that effect in the texts... Phil #126782 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:04 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (19) (Citta and cetasika) sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > ph: We might think that our understanding can distinguish citta and cetasika, but isn't that one of the stages of insight? ... S: Even now seeing has a very different characteristic to feeling or (subsequent) attachment, for example. Seeing just sees what is visible, nothing else. ... >Do I have that wrong? It seems to me that all naama is a soup with ingredients that only the Buddha can distinguish, and perhaps there is a simile to that effect in the texts... ... S: Like distinguishing vitakka, vicar, phassa and manasikara now? If there's any attempt to try and distinguish or pinpoint, delirious for sure. This doesn't mean we can't hear, consider and become more familiar with the different tasks - just to understand better the anattaness of the moments of experiencing now, each one arising and falling away with different ingredients. I appreciate the way you give a quote followed by your reflections. I thought of you when I wrote my mini-review of the AN translation. A great work for sure. I also appreciate the sincerity in the comments when B.Bodhi just explains the difficulty he has with the commentary. I remember how surprised he was several years ago in HK when I almost begged him to include commentary notes and said how helpful we find them. I should write and show my appreciation, but need to look at it a bit more first. Metta Sarah ===== #126783 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:09 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (19) (Citta and cetasika) rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: physical base. Each citta that arises is conditioned by different cetasikas that accompany it. Each citta performs a different function and thus there is a great diversity of types of cittas." (56-57) > > (end of passage) > > ph: We might think that our understanding can distinguish citta and cetasika, but isn't that one of the stages of insight? Do I have that wrong? It seems to me that all naama is a soup with ingredients that only the Buddha can distinguish, and perhaps there is a simile to that effect in the texts... > > Phil > Dear Phil I think the simile you are thinking of is this. King Milinda asked Nagasena why the Buddha was so respected: Nagasena said that the Buddha has accomplished a very diffiult task: 'If a man,' Nagasena says in reply to King Milinda, 'were to take a boat out to the sea, and if he were to take a handful of sea water and were then able to tell you that in it this much water is from the Ganges, this much from the Yamuna, and this much from the other great rivers of India, this would certainly be a very difficult thing to accomplish. In the same way, the Buddha has analyzed a single conscious moment of experience -- for instance, the experience of seeing a form--into its various component parts: matter, feeling, perception, volition, and consciousness.'" Without the Buddha we wouldn't even be able to know such an anaylsis was useful or possible. robert #126784 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:53 am Subject: RE: [dsg] AN transl by Bodhi - very briefly dhammasaro Good friends all, Yes, on first brief review, I agree. I purchased three (3) copies (pre-publication) and received four days ago. Two copies are to be gifts. I see Bhikkhu Bodhi is no longer in New Jersey, USA. He is now at Chuang Yen Monastery, Carmel, New York, USA. peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck http://wisdompubs.org/Pages/display.lasso?-KeyValue=33160&-Token.Action=Search&i\ mage=1 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com From: sarahprocterabbott@... Just this minute received our copy of the new AN translation and a thick, beautiful volume it is too. <...> #126785 From: "philip" Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:33 am Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (19) (Citta and cetasika) philofillet Hi Robert Thank you, very helpful. I think remember Azita mentionning a simile of a soup or a curry with a bunch of ingredients, but whether it was her own simile or from the tipitika, I don't know.. Phil #126786 From: "philip" Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:42 am Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (19) (Citta and cetasika) philofillet Hi Sarah > S: Like distinguishing vitakka, vicar, phassa and manasikara now? Ph: I always remember A.S saying to someone about phassa, something like you can say you are seeing now but can you say you are phassa now with a laugh. > If there's any attempt to try and distinguish or pinpoint, delirious for sure. This doesn't mean we can't hear, consider and become more familiar with the different tasks - just to understand better the anattaness of the moments of experiencing now, each one arising and falling away with different ingredients. Ph: Thanks, well explained. > I thought of you whn I wrote my mini-review of the AN translation. A great work for sure. I also appreciate the sincerity in the comments when B.Bodhi just explains the difficulty he has with the commentary. Ph: Well, I guess if there is equanimity or indifference one doesn't mind, but most people (judging from what I've seen at pop websites like Dhammawheel) weigh his opinion equally or greater than the opinion of the great ancients who provided the commentaries, which is kind of nuts and gives birth to what Scott called "neo-commentary." I don't know why he doesn't save his opinions for separate articles etc. But whatever, it doesn't matter really. What is the present reality? Not Bhikkhu Bodhi's opinion on this or that, nor is the present reality the steady movement (predicted by the Buddha) towards the decline/disappearance of Dhamma in the world. Visible object now! Phl #126787 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:55 am Subject: Re: Sri Lanka revisited, Ch 2, no7 epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Rob E > > > > > I don't usually reply to you on these issues, but I think you may find some sense in my response this time: I would assume that these are two separate moments, since kusala and akusala do not arise together, and clinging to self is akusala. The moment in which we abstain from akusala is a kusala moment, and in the following moments if we cling to a concept of self who abstains, that is an akusala moment. Panna can realize that this is not the case and that there is no self who abstains, and that is a kusala moment again. Just one moment at a time. > > I see your explanation got a valuable stamp of approval. I can now consume it with confidence, and thank you again. Please understand if I continue to use this system for your responses to my posts, and those of anyone else who doesn't study tipitika and commentaries seriously and place trust in them. (Including me of course, I assume my opinion on Dhamma is crapola until informed otherwise, I am the anti-Kalaman.) I was also happy to hear Rob K.'s response and it does give me more confidence in what I thought was the way this would occur. I think part of learning is putting out what one understands - not arbitrary nonsense, but something that is considered - and then see if it is correct or needs to be corrected. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - #126788 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death. nilovg Dear Sarah and all friends, Thank you for your kind letters of support. I thank Sarah and Jon, Han, Lukas, pt, Alberto, Phil, Rob K, Sukin, Jagkrit, Howard, Icaro, Ann, Rob E, Jessica, Azita and all friends. Han, I also think of our meeting in the hotel in Bgk, fond memories. Lukas: just visible object, nobody there, helped me a lot. It must help you too when you are sad or angry with a person: nobody there. Phil: you highlighted the same as me in Poland 1. I listen to Lodewijk's voice reciting the Perfections, and find comfort. But, as you often say: so much mixed with lobha. Also appreciation of his kusala. At that time it was a lot of work for him, on Sunday morning, making the recording with difficult equipment. Seeing now: this is actually many processes and each process with javanacittas rooted in lobha very often. When I had Lodewijk's company: countless cittas with lobha and now I better understand this. Howard: Sarah referred to your often quoted text about the dewdrops. How quickly life goes to its end, even now. Azita, :< each one of us is a different being after the cuticitta>. And even now, but hard to digest. Op 28-sep-2012, om 9:11 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > She also talked about the courage needed to let go of the > impermanent reality before there can be the letting go of the idea > of self completely. Whatever dhamma comes, whether it be seeing, > visible object, thinking, pleasant or unpleasant feeling, it is not > self - just an element. As Ajahn said, life may seem difficult now, but it's nothing to what lies in store - unimaginable pains and hardships. Now is the time to develop understanding. > The understanding of death should be now, she said - the visible > object or sound which falls away at this very moment. ------- Very good. Also your very timely reminders to me just before the funaral. Just like now. I also remembered that crying is caused by such a lot of attachment and selfishness: no longer enjoying his company. It all seemed a dream, very unreal. But we are dreaming all day, anyway. The story: it was all very well executed, sober and silent, no speeches, no music. It did not last long. Walking to the grave behind the coffin. My old age: great trouble to keep the pace since I am so slow. Sun shining and lots of beautiful trees. Now all the paper work, trying to understand taxes, sale of car, insurance polis etc. More stories the coming days. What lies in store for me? With gratefulness for all the support, Nina. #126789 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sri Lanka revisited, Ch 2, no7 nilovg Dear Phil, Op 26-sep-2012, om 19:58 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > When we abstain > > from akusala we may still cling to a concept of self who abstains. > > When right understanding has been developed it realizes that it is > > nåma that abstains, only a conditioned reality, not self. > > The former is still kusala, even though there is clinging to > concept of self, (and therefore lobha as well, I assume)? Can there > be a degree of sila that is technically speaking akusala? Or is > "clinging to concept of self who abstains" kusala but without panna? ------- N: As Rob E understands so well, different moments. Our whole life is such a mixture. Difficul to unravel it. Clinging can never be kusala. There are also moments of kusala cittas that abstain, in between. Nina. #126790 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:35 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (6) sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > I sincerely appreciate your comments. > The only problem is I cannot reach that stage where there is no self, no doer, or no control, etc. > Yes, it is indeed the purpose of all the Teachings. > But it will take a long, long time for me to gain that purpose. ... S: It's the same for us all. We all need to hear and consider a lot about dhammas, dhatus, khandhas, ayatanas and so on to really get used to the truth that there is no self, no doer amongst them. Clinging to the idea of self and ignorance have been accumulated for aeons, but appreciating the difficulty and the deep-rooted nature of self view shows an appreciation of the Buddha's wisdom and the Teachings. The Buddha never said it was easy. At least there is a beginning now as we remember that all is seen is visible object and so on. ... > > No, no, I will not ignore your comments. > How can I? > I always look up to you. ... S: Thank you, Han. Likewise, I greatly respect your confidence in the Teachings and how even if physically frail, there is nothing more precious than the understanding and wise consideration in our lives. Metta Sarah ====== #126791 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:38 pm Subject: Re: Death. sarahprocter... Dear Icaro, So glad to hear from you and to know you're still reading messages. As usual, you made me smile:-) Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Icaro França wrote: > Rest in peace, Chevalier Lodewijk Van Gorkon. #126792 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:00 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (6) sarahprocter... Dear Alberto & Han, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sprlrt@... wrote: >A: There is a passage in AN1 atthakatha, 13. ekapuggalavaggava.n.nanaa, commenting on the Buddha explanation of the Dhamma in conventional and absolute terms; > sammutidesanaa: puggalo (a person), satto (a being), itthii (a woman), puriso (a man), khattiyo (a warrior), braahma.no (a brahmin), devo (a god), maaro (the evil-one); > and paramatthadesanaa (anicca.m, dukkha.m, anattaa, khandhaa, dhaatuu, aayatanaani, satipa.t.thaanaa). > > It compares the 'two truths' to two languages, like Tamil and Hindi, in which a teacher of a specific subject, like the Vedas, is proficient. > Depending on the language his students understand better, he teaches his subject accordingly. ... S: We looked in the new Bodhi translation of AN to see if it has any of this commentary detail, but it doesn't'. He couldn't include everything. There's a passage in the Poland audio from the morning of the 13th (the day some went to Gdansk and we had so much discussion) in which K.Sujin is stressing how the purpose of the Teachings is to help those who have accumulations to understand realities as not self at all. It's the truth and the words include everything because he was enlightened to the truth about realities perfectly. She goes on to stress how whenever he met anyone he taught whatever subject matter and in whatever kind of language that person could follow - whether it was to be polite or have metta or whatever, indicating less clinging to self and the idea of self and all other kinds of unwholesomeness. She talked about how the Buddha is our best friend because he was patient enough to help us develop all kinds of goodness with right understanding. While I was looking for the sutta and commentary note you referred to, I found some notes to the very first sutta in AN 1s, "Obsession of the Mind". This is the sutta which refers to how the form, sound, odor and so on of a woman obsesses a man and vice versa. It is, of course, just what K.Sujin was talking about when she referred to how when we think we love someone so dearly, it's really just the visible object, sound and other rupas we're so attached to. There is an interesting note from the commentary given on 'subhanimitta' as in: "Bhikkhus, I do not see even one other thing on account of which unarisen sensual desire arises and arisen sensual desire increases and expands so much as the *mark* of the attractive." The note says: " 'Subhanimitta.Mp: 'The mark of the attractive is an object that is a basis for lust.' Mp cites various uses of the word 'nimitta': as a condition (paccaya), a cause (kaara.na), concentration (samaadhi), and insight (vipassanaa). Here it means 'an agreeable object that is a basis for lust' (raga.t.thaaniyo i.t.thaaramma.nadhammo)." Han, I thought this might be relevant to this discussion about satipatthana as condition for samma samaadhi in the Culavedalla Sutta, MN. Metta Sarah ===== #126793 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (12) aarammana (object of citta, cont'd.) sarahprocter... Dear Ven Kalpa, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kalpa" wrote: > Btw, in our discussion, by "manasikara" it keeps exist the citta, because nothing can exist in mind without thinking.(manasikara sambhawa sabbe dhamma) sambhawa means exist. ... S: Yes, manasikara arises with every citta, attending to the object at every moment. ... > Then sati can be in akusala chitta also as "michcha sati" & being harmfull, but 'samma sati' mentions always in dhamma, thus given as sobhana chetasika. For example, one can have sharp awareness(sati) to carry out a planned murder, & he can recall it later with sati, then both times michcha sati arised. ... S: Sati is always a sobhana cetasika and can't arise with akusala cittas. However, you're correct when you suggest that the Buddha also pointed out the wrong path and in AN and elsewhere refers to miccha sati. Here, it is not referring to sati cetasika, but various akusala mental factors called wrong awareness. ... > We should never ignore practical reality while learning dhamma, because dhamma is also to realize things as they exist practically & not to surpass the reality. Dhamma is for use as a vehicle & not to hold as a weight like "god's myth beliefs". ... S: I agree about the practical aspects. We may become fixated on a text or book and read a lot about lobha, dosa and metta, for example, but not understand or be aware of the dhammas when they arise at this moment. .. > Buddha described sati as the ability of recalling & five "nivarana" also prevent recalling. You'll not be able to recall even where you're at present when you've "tina middha" nivarana in your mind, so what a past can remind then.? ... S: Again, there can be recalling rightly or wrongly, with kusala or akusala cittas. So, always back to the understanding and awareness now, whatever arises. Thank you for these and other helpful comments. I look forward to hearing more from you. Metta and respect Sarah ==== #126794 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:17 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (12) aarammana (object of citta, cont'd.) sarahprocter... Dear Ven Kalpa, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kalpa" wrote: >By "abhidhamma" book, sati given as a sobhana chetasika is misleading. Buddha never say anything which causes to mislead. I'd like to warn all wise folk about learning abhidhamma because it mainly contains 2 types called suttanta naya & abhidhamma naya. That's dhamma taken from sutta & dhamma described later by monks, which as it not in Buddhas words. Their description might defer than what buddha said. Some other contents are mentioned as completely their thoughts. > So this's like a fruit salad mixed with some spoiled fruits also & you'll not be able to digest it if you eat it as it is.. ... S: With respect, I'd like to suggest that the "spoiled fruits" are the ignorance and wrong view when reading the Dhamma/Abhidhamma. When the dhamma/abhidhamma is truly understood as being about the reality now - seeing now, visible object now, attachment now - there are no "spoiled fruits", only beautiful fruit salad! ... > Abhidhamma is so useful as far as not ignoring things as they're we experience & not being slavers of it. I said this is, ... S: As we're always told, "Abhidhamma is not in the book" - it's the truth about what is real at this moment. You may like to read a section in 'Useful Posts' in the DSG files under "Abhidhamma vs Suttanta". Also one under "Abhidhamma - origins." Metta & respect Sarah ===== #126795 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:26 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (12) aarammana (object of citta, cont'd.) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo (DMR), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "aungsoeminuk" wrote: > There left a thing when conditions _for arising of a citta_were mentioned. > > 1. for seeing (light) / aaloka > 2. for hearing (space) / aakaasa > 3. for smelling (air) / vaata > 4. for tasting (saliva) / aapa > 5. for touching (nerve-complex) / thaddha pathavii > 6. for thinking (flow-of-knowing) / bhavanga cittas > > No light at all no seeing. No space at all no hearing_: Under water we can hear through the media of water which contain space. But when there is vacuum there is no hearing at all. ... S: That's true - there must be the open space for hearing to occur, not just the space in between the kalapas. ... > > No air no smelling. We pinch our nose when face with foul smell. No saliva no taste. Rub the tougue to dry and put salt on it no taste at all. But when a drop of water is put tasting arise. > > No nerve no touching. Paraplegic feet cannot sense anything hot, cold, touch, pinprick. ... S: I think that thaddha pathavii just refers to hardness (earth element), doesn't it? ... > > When there is active procession of viithi cittas (conscious mind) thinking cannot arise. Thinking just arises after completion of perception. ... S: Bhavanga citta is given as the doorway for mind-door processes. Without the bhavanga citta before the mind door process arising and falling away, no thinking. Glad to read your comments as always. metta Sarah ==== #126796 From: han tun Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta (6) hantun1 Dear Sarah (and Alberto), Sarah: There is an interesting note from the commentary given on 'subhanimitta' as in: "Bhikkhus, I do not see even one other thing on account of which unarisen sensual desire arises and arisen sensual desire increases and expands so much as the *mark* of the attractive." The note says: " 'Subhanimitta.Mp: 'The mark of the attractive is an object that is a basis for lust.' Mp cites various uses of the word 'nimitta': as a condition (paccaya), a cause (kaara.na), concentration (samaadhi), and insight (vipassanaa). Here it means 'an agreeable object that is a basis for lust' (raga.t.thaaniyo i.t.thaaramma.nadhammo)." Han, I thought this might be relevant to this discussion about satipatthana as condition for samma samaadhi in the Culavedalla Sutta, MN. --------------- Han: I also find various meanings of nimitta in PTS Dictionary. Nimitta = (1) sign, omen, portent; (2) outward appearance, mark, characteristic, attribute, phenomenon; (3) mark, aim; (4) sexual organ; (5) ground, reason, condition. In MN 44, Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi translated [cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa samaadhinimittaa] as the four foundations of mindfulness are the *basis* of concentration. So, it is alright, Sarah. I now understand what Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi meant in his Note. Thank you very much for your additional comments. with metta and respect, Han #126797 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:31 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (15) Right understanding of citta? sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >S:When there's doubt and speculation about the 8fold path, future >lives, memorizing of classifications not properly understood and so >on, it's not sacca ~naana. This is why she stressed how vitakka >('thinking') always takes the citta away from the present reality. > >=================================================== > >A: If past/future rebirths were self evident truth than one wouldn't need to think about it. Same with classifications. Even the Buddha had different types of classification (2, 3, 5,6,12,18). Different Abhidhammas had different classification schemes. If it was self evident then wouldn't there be one teaching and no doubt about that? ... S: The point is, when we read about past/future lives, about 18 dhatus or whatever classification it is, does it lead to more understanding of the present dhammas or does it just lead to attachment to another collection of details, like a fossil hunter collecting samples? The value in what we read is only in the understanding of what arises now as anatta. Metta Sarah ===== #126798 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah: MN 44. Cuu.lavedalla Sutta sarahprocter... Dear Alberto (& Han), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sprlrt@... wrote: > In this (cuu.lavedalla) sutta I've also found helpful that even an householder, a wealthy merchant like Visaakha, without having to resort to a secluded place like a forest or an empty hut, could attain jhaana. ... S: And of course, the factors that arise with the lokuttara cittas are equivalent in strength to jhana cittas. (Vipassana nana samadhi equivalent in strength to upacara). ... > I think it shows the superior quality of the dhammas involved in vipassana than those involved in samatha, ... S: Yes, and this is why the Buddha taught that all kusala other than the development of vipassana is wrong path in this sense. Of course, at any moments of kusala, including vipassana, there is samatha already, the cittas are calm. ... >and that the level of pa~n~naa conditioning the arising of anaagami magga also conditions samaadhi to the level of upacaara and appana samadhi (i.e. of jhaanaa), even in the case of lay people like Visaakha, who couldn't and weren't developing samatha at all and who previously to anaagami magga could and were only having the momentary (kha.nika) samaadhi of bare vipassana. ... S: Yes - see note above about upacara. ... > Superiority which is found in tipitaka also in the classification of paramattha dhammas as paritta (kaamaavacara), mahaggata (ruupa and aruupaavacara) and appamaa.na (lokuttara); small, great and immeasurable realities. ... S: Yes - 'great' or mahaggata cannot compare with 'immeasurable' or appamaa.na. Metta Sarah ==== #126799 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:45 pm Subject: Re: Hello, intro sarahprocter... Dear Betty, After your lovely re-introduction, you've been very quiet. Do hope all is well and that you've had a chance to read the Poland summaries of discussions and perhaps to listen to some of the audio uploaded. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala wrote: >Yes, I was supposed to go to > Poland with the group, but unfortunately, to make a long story short, there > were no conditions for me to go, period. The story of all that is just > that, the story. At first I was chagrined, to say the least, but then I > thought, ah well, conditions and the dosa dissipated. ... S: I thought of you. It's so helpful to have heard the Dhamma and to understand that the long stories are just that - "the story" as you put it well. Yes, there are always conditions for dosa on account of things not going our way, clinging to sense objects and more stories again, but appreciating the truth means at least there is some understanding. ... > Do have a wonderful time, tell us all about it when you get back, and I > hope there will be plenty of conditions for understanding to arise for all > of you while there. ... S: I appreciated your kind wishes to everyone even though you couldn't make it. Mudita - being glad in others' good fortune, a wonderful quality. Metta Sarah =====