#129800 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 6, 2013 5:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma-anupassana nilovg Dear Tep, Op 5-apr-2013, om 14:37 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > However, I think the reason why our Greatest Teacher, the Buddha, > groups these realities for anupassana into kaya-anupassana, vedana- > anupassana, citta-anupassana, and dhamma-anupassana is because each > anupassana has its advantages that would not be fully realized if > they are lumped together in one 'dhamma-anupassana'. ------ N: That is right, special reminders to help us. We need many, many aspects, our understanding is so weak. Nina. #129801 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 6, 2013 5:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] HAPPY BIRTHDAY.... To Nina nilovg Dear Yawares, thank you very much. I had been thinking of you the last days, since your husband started posting here again. Wondering where you were. Thank you for your kind attention, Nina. Op 5-apr-2013, om 19:50 heeft Yawares Sastri het volgende geschreven: > Happy Birthday to you..I have a dhammapada story and a picture for > you. #129802 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 6, 2013 5:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 4-apr-2013, om 19:50 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > Just to repeat, it cannot be "Nina" nor "wise cittas" that > communicate directly. Rupas have to be produced, perceived and > thought about before anything is communicated or understood. ----- N: There are ruupas: bodily intimation, kayavi~n~natti, and speech intimation, vaci vi~n~natti. Kusala citta or akusala citta can produce these. You see again that life is just naama and ruupa arising because of conditions. In conventional language we say: there is the speaker and the listener. For the listener it may not be the right time to receive the teachings. It often happens, you hear something but it does not mean so much. Then you hear it again and it clicks. It all depends on the development of pa~n~naa, has it ripened enough to receive the truth? It is not you who understands. Here we have another example. For some it may not have any meaning to hear: It is not you who understands. Nina. #129803 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 6, 2013 6:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sacca Parami nilovg Dear Tadao, Op 5-apr-2013, om 12:39 heeft tadaomiyamoto@... het volgende geschreven: > Could you tell me why Sacca in important for the development of > sati/pannaa? > > (One important realization I had in March in Bangkok was that one > has to be "sincere" > in the sense that Dhamma ought to practiced, not part-time, full- > time. For lay-followers there would be many excuses of not devoting > oneself to Dhamma, but these excuses are very much against the > sprit of Sacca.) ---------- N: We pay respect to the Buddha but are we truthful, sincere? As Acharn says, we have to be truthful through body, speech and mind. Having metta, helping where we can, developing understanding. It is not so much practice (this word has many associations of meaning), rather developing understanding of whatever dhamma appears now. Quote from Acharn's Perfections, on Truthfulness: ... The perfection of truthfulness, sacca påramí, is sincerity and truthfulness with regard to realities. It means truthfulness through body, speech and mind. In order to realize the four noble Truths, one should be truthful, sincere, with regard to oneself, and this means, truthful with regard to the realities which appear just as they are. Kusala is kusala and akusala is akusala; they cannot be otherwise, no matter whether they arise in oneself or in someone else... Truthfulness is the dhamma that enhances the arising and development of all kusala, because truthfulness is sincerity with regard to the eradication of defilements. When kusala does not arise and we realize that we are not sincere in the development of kusala, this can be a condition for its arising. When akusala arises we should be truthful so that sati sampajañña can be aware of the characteristic of akusala. In this way there are conditions for the abandoning of akusala and the development of kusala. The Bodhisatta developed in his daily life all kinds of kusala to a high degree, including very subtle and refined kusala. People who have not yet realized the noble Truths should follow in the Bodhisatta’s steps. This means that one should develop all degrees of paññå with the aim to eradicate defilements.... ... The perfection of truthfulness is essential. We read in the Commentary to the “Basket of Conduct” in the Miscellaneous Sayings: The perfection of truthfulness should be reviewed thus: "Without truthfulness, virtue, etc., is impossible, and there can be no practice in accordance with one's vows. All evil states converge upon the transgression of truth. One who is not devoted to truth is unreliable and his word cannot be accepted in the future. On the other hand, one devoted to truth secures the foundation of all noble qualities. With truthfulness as the foundation, he is capable of purifying and fulfilling all the requisites of enlightenment. Not deceived about the true nature of phenomena, he performs the functions of all the requisites of enlightenment and completes the practice of the bodhisattva path." ... ------ Nina. #129804 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 6, 2013 6:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] HAPPY BIRTHDAY.... To Nina yawares1 Dear Nina, Did you see the picture of Thai carved fruit flowers in a silver tray..below the dhammapada story, with HAPPY BIRTHDAY? I'm quite happy playing @ Dhamma Wheel/Dharma Wheel that I can post pictures/video embeded...so cool. Miss you,always! yawares --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Yawares, > thank you very much. I had been thinking of you the last days, since > your husband started posting here again. Wondering where you were. > Thank you for your kind attention, > Nina. > #129805 From: "philip" Date: Sat Apr 6, 2013 10:49 am Subject: Break philofillet Dear all I will be taking a break from DSG during the baseball season.( It consumes my Internet time.) Lukas, if you need any specific support with the challenges that we share, please don't hesitate to contact me off list. Phil #129806 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Sat Apr 6, 2013 1:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sacca Parami jagkrit2012 Dear Tadao and Nina >>T: (One important realization I had in March in Bangkok was that one > > has to be "sincere" > > in the sense that Dhamma ought to practiced, not part-time, full- > > time. For lay-followers there would be many excuses of not devoting > > oneself to Dhamma, but these excuses are very much against the > > sprit of Sacca.) > ---------- >N: ... The perfection of truthfulness is essential. We read in the > Commentary to the "Basket of Conduct" in the Miscellaneous Sayings: > > The perfection of truthfulness should be reviewed thus: "Without > truthfulness, virtue, etc., is impossible, and there can be no > practice in accordance with one's vows. All evil states converge upon > the transgression of truth. One who is not devoted to truth is > unreliable and his word cannot be accepted in the future. On the > other hand, one devoted to truth secures the foundation of all noble > qualities. With truthfulness as the foundation, he is capable of > purifying and fulfilling all the requisites of enlightenment. Not > deceived about the true nature of phenomena, he performs the > functions of all the requisites of enlightenment and completes the > practice of the bodhisattva path." ... JJ: Thank you very much for this explanation. I see the very important of Sacca Parami and understand now that why Bhotisatta never breaks Sacca. In 5 percepts, Bhotisatta sometimes broke other 4 but not Sacca Vaacaa (wrong speech). Thank you and anumodhana Jagkrit #129807 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Apr 6, 2013 2:03 pm Subject: Re: What atta is denied? kenhowardau Hi Robert E, ------- <. . .> > RE: There's no alternate interpretation. No one disagrees with the non-self of dhammas, as they arise and pass away. -------- KH: There is complete disagreement. We have one DSG member who thinks the non-self of dhammas denies only an ancient Hindu concept of Atman. We have others who think `non-self' means that conditioned dhammas don't really exist. And we have others who think `non-self' denies the existence of a soul (lasting entity). ------ > RE: But to quibble about which self Buddha denied, as if there is one self he denied and another that he does not deny, seems really ridiculous to me. ------ KH: We need to be absolutely certain about what the Buddha taught. ---------- > RE: If you want to talk about the technical existence of anatta as a property of dhammas, there is no problem with that. There's no "alternate interpretation." I am simply saying that there is no kind of self of any kind, period, and it is kind of silly to argue with that. ----------- KH: You have been arguing that a dhamma does not exist "in and of itself." As I understand that, you have been saying that self (atta) in the doctrine of anatta means "actual existence" or "absolute reality." If that is what you mean you are certainly not alone. I think perhaps the majority of modern-day Buddhists think the Abhidhamma's explanation of conditioned reality is just a theoretical model. ---- <. . .> > RE: I have simply said that if there is no self, control etc. in dhammas, there is certainly no other kind of self either. Problem with that? Why? > There is no self of any kind, period, esp. of course, the lack of self of arising dhammas. ----- KH: I thought it would good idea in my "Question about Mahayana" thread to find out exactly who meant what by "anatta." I see someone has changed the thread title to "What atta is denied?" which seems suitable. Do you think we have answered the question? Ken H #129808 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Apr 6, 2013 2:52 pm Subject: Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. epsteinrob Hi Phil and all. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Ok, throw in rupas if you'd like. You can conceptualize to the person with the name as well if you'd like. But the starting point is the accumulated understanding of Dhamma. (I.e panna rooted cittas.) > > Over and out for me on this, thanks. You don't have to read or reply on this if you have had enough, I am just completing it for myself and anyone else who may be interested. The reason I am pushing the rupas is because the subject was not the development of wisdom, which is of course a prerequisite for someone to be "wise," but the communication of the Dhamma. Listening to the Dhamma and wisely considering it are prerequisites for developing wisdom and for entering the path, so the way this takes place is very important. It just happens that the communication from those "wise cittas" to other cittas that may not know the path is the heart of how the Dhamma is transmitted. If anyone has more details on how this form of kamma patha takes place, I would be very interested. Thanks, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = #129809 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 6, 2013 5:06 pm Subject: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, The Buddha, during countless previous lives as a Bodhisatta, developed wisdom, right understanding, so that in his last life he could become the omniscient Buddha. He developed right understanding again and again of seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, attachment, generosity, of all realities of daily life. We also have to develop right understanding of realities life after life so that eventually enlightenment [1]can be attained and defilements eradicated. Seeing is a reality, it arises and experiences just what is visible, and then it falls away. It arises because of conditions: eyesense and visible object are conditions for seeing, and it is a citta that is the result of kamma, vipåkacitta. It only sees visible object, but we believe that we see a person or thing. That is thinking, arising on account of what is seen. Thinking is not vipåkacitta. When we think, the citta may be wholesome citta (kusala citta) or unwholesome citta (akusala citta). It seems that we can see and think at the same time, but only one citta can arise at a time and experience one object. Cittas arise and fall away succeeding one another extremely rapidly and that is why we are deluded about the truth. Thinking is usually motivated by akusala (unwholesomeness), and this is the case when we are not intent on what is wholesome, such as generosity, helping others or developing understanding. Citta can think of reality or of what is not a reality, but a concept. When we are living in a dream world all day, thinking of what is not real, we are deluded and the citta is akusala. We should remember that there is no one in the visible object, no person or thing. Visible object is only a kind of rúpa that impinges on the eyesense and that can be seen. We have an idea of “I see”, but there is no self who sees, only seeing sees. Acharn explained: “When thinking of Lodewijk or Ivan, there is attachment and it hinders, it hinders the understanding of seeing, but it takes a long time to really understand this. The Path is very subtle, but very effective, paññå really knows what hinders. Now we do not know what hinders. We cry and we think a lot about the situation we are in. When paññå sees what is a hindrance it cannot hinder any more, because it is understood.” Sarah remarked: ”People often say that they found it so difficult in the case of separation through death that they did not have a chance to say farewell, but actually, it is just clinging to one’s own thought, one’s own idea.” Acharn Sujin said: “Even that moment is gone, not to be thought about again. It is past and past and past, all the time. Nothing is left, only thinking and memory. Nothing can belong to anyone at all.” ------- [1] Enlightenment, in the context of the Buddhist teachings, is highly developed paññå that eradicates defilements and experiences the unconditioned dhamma, nibbåna. There are different stages of enlightenment. ---------- Nina. #129810 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Apr 6, 2013 5:09 pm Subject: Re: What atta is denied? epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Robert E, > > ------- > <. . .> > > RE: There's no alternate interpretation. No one disagrees with the non-self of dhammas, as they arise and pass away. > -------- > > KH: There is complete disagreement. We have one DSG member who thinks the non-self of dhammas denies only an ancient Hindu concept of Atman. I think that is included. The Buddha denied an eternal self. > We have others who think `non-self' means that conditioned dhammas don't really exist. Who said that non-self = no dhammas? I'm not familiar with that idea. I have talked in this thread about the nature of dhammas, not of them not existing. > And we have others who think `non-self' denies the existence of a soul (lasting entity). Atman is a form of soul - it is the "inner self" which is an eternal divine form of self. The word "anatta" means "no self or soul," as atta/atman means self or soul. In Hindu philosophy the idea of self has several different meanings. If one says "inner self" or Self with a capital S, it means the divine self within, which is the equivalent of what we think of as an eternal soul, free of space and time. So, yes, literally and in the Buddha's time, "anatta" means no self or soul. it covers both the spiritual meaning of "self" and the various sorts of soul that can be surmised. When the Buddha says, as a proof of anatta, if objects, thoughts, etc., were part of your Atman, divine self or eternal soul, then you would be able to make them do what you want, but you can't, so they are not part of such a self or soul. The Buddha uses the lack of control of phenomena as a proof that they have the characteristic of anatta, that they are not amenable to personal control, because of course a divine Godlike self would have some influence over phenomena. If you go to a minute irreducible level of the smallest units of reality, in other words the paramatha or ultimate level of reality, then you can observe the non-controllability and changeability of dhammas, dissatisfaction brought by fleeting dhammas, and the dukkha caused by attachment/clinging to dhammas, then you can see the true activity of anatta in action, close up. However, these more conceptual levels of Atman/atta are also denied by extension. > ------ > > RE: But to quibble about which self Buddha denied, as if there is one self he denied and another that he does not deny, seems really ridiculous to me. > ------ > > KH: We need to be absolutely certain about what the Buddha taught. Well clearly there's no certainty here at all, only very strongly held opinion, which does not substitute for actual certainty about what the Buddha actually meant to teach. He used the terms of his time - Atta/Atman - to deny the self-quality of all the things that people cling to. Atta/Atman, the root of "anatta/anatman in Sanskrit" have specific meanings. Atta/Atman does refer to the divine self/eternal soul that was believed in at the time, and that is what the Buddha is denying when it comes to the objects of clinging. If you want to be certain you have to really look into what Atta/Atman meant and implied, not ignore it and make up your own definition. On the other hand, there is no contradiction with this being applied to dhammas, and saying that dhammas, the ultimate irreducible actual building blocks of experience, are totally lacking any properties of self and that this can be realized by panna. You may see a contradiction, because you only want to talk about the paramatha level, unlike the Buddha who spoke about everyday life and paramatha dhammas, but that contradiction comes from not seeing that the implications of no-self/no-soul on the everyday level can be applied on the dhamma level and vice versa. If you want to stick to the paramatha level that is fine too, but the Buddha clearly was speaking about the inner self/Soul that was popular in Hinduism at the time he lived and denying it, a very radical thing to do, which was the Atta/Atman, a technical term for all Hindus, both then and now, not a word that you can create a new meaning for just because you feel like it. Here's the American Heritage dictionary definition: (ät'm?n) pronunciation n. Hinduism The individual soul or essence. Atman The essence that is eternal, unchanging, and indistinguishable from the essence of the universe. Anatta/anatman means no soul, no essence, no individual inner self. > ---------- > > RE: If you want to talk about the technical existence of anatta as a property of dhammas, there is no problem with that. > There's no "alternate interpretation." I am simply saying that there is no kind of self of any kind, period, and it is kind of silly to argue with that. > ----------- > > KH: You have been arguing that a dhamma does not exist "in and of itself." As I understand that, you have been saying that self (atta) in the doctrine of anatta means "actual existence" or "absolute reality." I haven't said anything of that kind, and I have thoroughly explained what I did mean. Did you read any of that? Or did you just decide to make up your own idea of what I said instead? You asked if I was saying that the dhamma was "nothing but change" and thus didn't exist and I said that was not what I meant, that the dhamma has substance and does exist but is always changing, something very different than non-existence. I then gave you concrete examples of things that change but still exist to make sure you understood me - did you not read those responses or what? > If that is what you mean you are certainly not alone. I don't want to be rude, but to say that I said dhammas don't exist and then to go on and say "I am not alone" when I never said that, is an amazing exercise in fantasy for someone who is supposed to be a fan of "realities" that "really exist." > I think perhaps the majority of modern-day Buddhists think the Abhidhamma's explanation of conditioned reality is just a theoretical model. I have said how I understand the existence of dhammas and I have referenced Abhidhamma and commentary in the three phases of a dhamma's changing existence. You don't seem to be able to handle that idea, since you haven't responded to it specifically even once. > ---- > <. . .> > > RE: I have simply said that if there is no self, control etc. in dhammas, there is certainly no other kind of self either. Problem with that? Why? > > > There is no self of any kind, period, esp. of course, the lack of self of arising dhammas. > ----- > > KH: I thought it would good idea in my "Question about Mahayana" thread to find out exactly who meant what by "anatta." I see someone has changed the thread title to "What atta is denied?" which seems suitable. Do you think we have answered the question? No, and I don't think "which atta is denied" as if, like the Highlander series, "there can only be one." It's ridiculous. We're talking about something that doesn't exist, and you're concerned about which nonexistent version doesn't exist. None of them exist, because they're all concepts. Anatta is not a thing, as I've been trying to tell you for ten years. It's the absence of any kind of self. There is no self associated with dhammas, including their own precious little "own-being" self, and there is no self anywhere else either. You want to know "which room does a unicorn not exist in? Is it the livingroom or the kitchen that the unicorn is not in, or is it the backyard?" The answer is that the unicorn doesn't exist in any room, because there are no unicorns anywhere, except in your mind. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = #129811 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 6, 2013 11:55 pm Subject: Re: It Is An Illusion, a Mirage ... t.sastri Hi Sarah, - >S: Just like old times..... T: When 'sanna' ceases, old times also cease. :-) ........... >S: No need to "switch off" or not use conventional language! We have to use it. T: Thanks for agreeing on the usefulness of the conventional language. >S: However, the point was just that sun-rises, roses and diamonds are not dhammas and don't have the characteristic of anicca. T: Why not? >S: Appreciating that only visible object is seen and only tangible object is touched doesn't mean one has to give away all material goods (unless one becomes a monk) or that there is no more clinging to diamonds! T: When you keep things, there is always the thought, 'this is mine'. When there is the thought 'my diamonds', how come there is no clinging? ........... > Be free >S: Being free of wrong view about present realities is most precious of all, don't you think? T: True knowledge (avijja) that abandons self views and conceit(maana) is more precious, I think. The most precious of all is Nibbana. Be well, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > Just like old times..... > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > It is great to discuss the Abhidhamma with you, but my conventional-language-habit is still a little too difficult to switch off. > ... > S: No need to "switch off" or not use conventional language! We have to use it. However, the point was just that sun-rises, roses and diamonds are not dhammas and don't have the characteristic of anicca. > > ............... > > > T: Thanks for the sutta quote. I appreciate it a lot. > > BTW Have you got rid of your ruby, pearl and diamond collections yet? :-) > ... > S: Ha, ha! Actually, I've never a collector of jewellery to my mother's disappointment! > > Seriously, whether or not I had such a collection would make no difference to the truth about realities. Appreciating that only visible object is seen and only tangible object is touched doesn't mean one has to give away all material goods (unless one becomes a monk) or that there is no more clinging to diamonds! > > > Be free, > ..... > > S: Being free of wrong view about present realities is most precious of all, don't you think? > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > #129812 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 7, 2013 12:32 am Subject: Re: Dhamma-anupassana t.sastri Hi Sarah, - It is very good when there is mutual Dhamma appreciation, despite our different emphases. Like the Pentagon buildling with many entrances, we may enter it through different doors. >S: Each rupa is rupa khandha. ... each vedana is vedana khandha. Many realities, such as rupas and vedana are repeated in different contexts. ... when the 5 khandhas are mentioned later under dhammanupassana, these include all conditioned realities, all objects of satipatthana. T: Well said, Sarah. ........... >S: So now, what appears? Hardness, softness, visible object, pleasant or unpleasant feeling? There can be awareness and understanding now. Just ordinary dhammas, khandhas, realities in daily life. T: Can you be aware of all these dhammas at the same moment? Of course, you can't. That's why the anupassana of the ayatanas goes like this [SN 35.99]: He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is inconstant'... [Cakkhu.m aniccanti yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati] 'Forms are inconstant'... [ruupaa aniccaati yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati] 'Eye-consciousness is inconstant'... [cakkhuviññaa.na.m aniccanti yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati] and so on and so forth. ........... Truly, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > Good topic! > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > For example, anapanasati (only the first tetrad) and kayagatasati are under kaya-anupassana; yet, rupakkhandha is under dhamma-anupassana. > .... > S: kayanupassana refers to awareness and understanding of rupas, the rupas we take for the body that we're so very attached to. Each rupa is rupa khandha. > .... > >Vedana-anupassana is separated from the anupassana of vedana-khandha that is under dhamma-anupassana. > .... > S: Again each vedana is vedana khandha. We find feelings so very, very important throughout the day, so vedananupassana is emphasised. > > Many realities, such as rupas and vedana are repeated in different contexts. As you suggest, when the 5 khandhas are mentioned later under dhammanupassana, these include all conditioned realities, all objects of satipatthana. > > So now, what appears? Hardness, softness, visible object, pleasant or unpleasant feeling? > There can be awareness and understanding now. Just ordinary dhammas, khandhas, realities in daily life. > > Metta > > Sarah > ====== > #129813 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 7, 2013 12:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma-anupassana t.sastri Dear Nina, - Yes indeed, we need to investigate and contemplate on many, many aspects of the realities (and then let go of clinging even when the understanding is weak). Thanks for the reminder. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Tep, > Op 5-apr-2013, om 14:37 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > > > However, I think the reason why our Greatest Teacher, the Buddha, > > groups these realities for anupassana into kaya-anupassana, vedana- > > anupassana, citta-anupassana, and dhamma-anupassana is because each > > anupassana has its advantages that would not be fully realized if > > they are lumped together in one 'dhamma-anupassana'. > ------ > N: That is right, special reminders to help us. We need many, many > aspects, our understanding is so weak. > Nina. > > > > > #129814 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 7, 2013 12:45 am Subject: Re: Break t.sastri Hi Phil, - Is it possible to reflect on the not-self of the realities, while you are intensely watching a baseball game? Be happy, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Dear all > > I will be taking a break from DSG during the baseball season.( It consumes my Internet time.) > > Lukas, if you need any specific support with the challenges that we share, please don't hesitate to contact me off list. > > Phil > #129815 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 7, 2013 1:13 am Subject: Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 4. t.sastri Dear Nina, - You wrote: 1) "We also have to develop right understanding of realities life after life so that eventually enlightenment can be attained and defilements eradicated." 2) "Thinking is usually motivated by akusala (unwholesomeness), and this is the case when we are not intent on what is wholesome, such as generosity, helping others or developing understanding. Citta can think of reality or of what is not a reality, but a concept. When we are living in a dream world all day, thinking of what is not real, we are deluded and the citta is akusala. We should remember that there is no one in the visible object, no person or thing. Visible object is only a kind of rúpa that impinges on the eyesense and that can be seen. We have an idea of "I see", but there is no self who sees, only seeing sees." T: I think you are saying that right understanding/enlightenment has to arise before defilements are eradicated. But the Buddha teaches in the Sallekha Sutta and Dvedhavitakka Sutta, for example, that kilesas/akusala dhammas must be effaced and abandoned (at least temporarily) before kusala dhammas (including knowing a reality that arises now) can arise. Please correct me if I am mistaken. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > > The Buddha, during countless previous lives as a Bodhisatta, > developed wisdom, right understanding, so that in his last life he > could become the omniscient Buddha. He developed right understanding > again and again of seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, > attachment, generosity, of all realities of daily life. We also have > to develop right understanding of realities life after life so that > eventually enlightenment [1]can be attained and defilements eradicated. > > Seeing is a reality, it arises and experiences just what is visible, > and then it falls away. It arises because of conditions: eyesense and > visible object are conditions for seeing, and it is a citta that is > the result of kamma, vipåkacitta. It only sees visible object, but we > believe that we see a person or thing. That is thinking, arising on > account of what is seen. Thinking is not vipåkacitta. When we think, > the citta may be wholesome citta (kusala citta) or unwholesome citta > (akusala citta). It seems that we can see and think at the same time, > but only one citta can arise at a time and experience one object. > Cittas arise and fall away succeeding one another extremely rapidly > and that is why we are deluded about the truth. > Thinking is usually motivated by akusala (unwholesomeness), and this > is the case when we are not intent on what is wholesome, such as > generosity, helping others or developing understanding. Citta can > think of reality or of what is not a reality, but a concept. When we > are living in a dream world all day, thinking of what is not real, we > are deluded and the citta is akusala. We should remember that there > is no one in the visible object, no person or thing. Visible object > is only a kind of rúpa that impinges on the eyesense and that can be > seen. We have an idea of "I see", but there is no self who sees, only > seeing sees. > Acharn explained: "When thinking of Lodewijk or Ivan, there is > attachment and it hinders, it hinders the understanding of seeing, > but it takes a long time to really understand this. The Path is very > subtle, but very effective, paññå really knows what hinders. > Now we do not know what hinders. We cry and we think a lot about the > situation we are in. When paññå sees what is a hindrance it cannot > hinder any more, because it is understood." > Sarah remarked: "People often say that they found it so difficult in > the case of separation through death that they did not have a chance > to say farewell, but actually, it is just clinging to one's own > thought, one's own idea." > Acharn Sujin said: "Even that moment is gone, not to be thought about > again. It is past and past and past, all the time. Nothing is left, > only thinking and memory. Nothing can belong to anyone at all." > ------- > [1] Enlightenment, in the context of the Buddhist teachings, is > highly developed paññå that eradicates defilements and experiences > the unconditioned dhamma, nibbåna. There are different stages of > enlightenment. > ---------- > Nina. > #129816 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 7, 2013 1:26 am Subject: Re: It Is An Illusion, a Mirage ... Vijja = True Knowledge t.sastri Dear Han, Sarah, others - Forgive my typo: > T: True knowledge (avijja) that abandons self views and conceit(maana) is more precious, I think. The most precious of all is Nibbana. Of course, vijja is true knowledge. Thanks to my brother Han who pointed it out. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi Sarah, - > > >S: Just like old times..... > T: When 'sanna' ceases, old times also cease. :-) > ........... > > >S: No need to "switch off" or not use conventional language! We have to use it. > T: Thanks for agreeing on the usefulness of the conventional language. > > >S: However, the point was just that sun-rises, roses and diamonds are not dhammas and don't have the characteristic of anicca. > T: Why not? > > >S: Appreciating that only visible object is seen and only tangible object is touched doesn't mean one has to give away all material goods (unless one becomes a monk) or that there is no more clinging to diamonds! > T: When you keep things, there is always the thought, 'this is mine'. When there is the thought 'my diamonds', how come there is no clinging? > ........... > > > Be free > >S: Being free of wrong view about present realities is most precious of all, don't you think? > T: True knowledge (avijja) that abandons self views and conceit(maana) is more precious, I think. The most precious of all is Nibbana. > > Be well, > Tep > === > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > > > Hi Tep, > > > > Just like old times..... > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > > > It is great to discuss the Abhidhamma with you, but my conventional-language-habit is still a little too difficult to switch off. > > ... > > S: No need to "switch off" or not use conventional language! We have to use it. However, the point was just that sun-rises, roses and diamonds are not dhammas and don't have the characteristic of anicca. > > > ............... > > > > > T: Thanks for the sutta quote. I appreciate it a lot. > > > BTW Have you got rid of your ruby, pearl and diamond collections yet? :-) > > ... > > S: Ha, ha! Actually, I've never a collector of jewellery to my mother's disappointment! > > > > Seriously, whether or not I had such a collection would make no difference to the truth about realities. Appreciating that only visible object is seen and only tangible object is touched doesn't mean one has to give away all material goods (unless one becomes a monk) or that there is no more clinging to diamonds! > > > > > Be free, > > ..... > > > > S: Being free of wrong view about present realities is most precious of all, don't you think? > > > > Metta > > > > Sarah > > ===== > > > #129817 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Apr 7, 2013 1:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma-anupassana jonoabb Hi Tep (and Nina) Welcome back from me! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dear Nina (Sarah, Rob E.), - > ... > T: Many thanks for pointing out that kaya, vedana, citta, and dhamma are "actually dhammas, realities". It is true! > > However, I think the reason why our Greatest Teacher, the Buddha, groups these realities for anupassana into kaya-anupassana, vedana-anupassana, citta-anupassana, and dhamma-anupassana is because each anupassana has its advantages that would not be fully realized if they are lumped together in one 'dhamma-anupassana'. > > For example, anapanasati (only the first tetrad) and kayagatasati are under kaya-anupassana; yet, rupakkhandha is under dhamma-anupassana. Vedana-anupassana is separated from the anupassana of vedana-khandha that is under dhamma-anupassana. > =============== J: The question is whether the 4 classes of anupassana are mutually exclusive, or whether a dhamma may fall under more than 1 of the 4 classes. In the commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta, as translated in "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, the introduction to the 4th section (dhammas) gives 2 explanations as to how the 4 classes are related to each other (see below). As I read these explanations, dhammas may fall under more than a single contemplation. This suggests to me that the 4-fold classification is for assistance in comprehension by the listener/reader, rather than for any other (i.e., doctrinal) reason. What do you think? Jon "The Way of Mindfulness: The Satipatthana Sutta and Its Commentary", by Soma Thera. ********************************************************** After explaining the Arousing of Mindfulness of the sixteenfold contemplation of consciousness, the Master said: "And, how, o bhikkhus," in order to expound the fivefold contemplation of mental objects [dhamma], — things spiritual and material. [First explanation] Further, the laying hold of pure corporeality or materiality was taught by the Blessed One in the instruction on body-contemplation, and in the instruction on the contemplation of feeling and consciousness, the laying hold of the purely spiritual. Now in order to teach the laying hold of a mixture of the material and the spiritual, he said, "And, how, o bhikkhus," and so forth. [Second explanation] Or in the contemplation on the body the laying hold of the aggregate of corporeality or materiality was spoken of by the Master; in the contemplation on feeling, the laying hold of the aggregate of feeling; in the contemplation on mind, the laying hold of the aggregate of consciousness; and now in order to speak of even the laying hold of the aggregates of perception and formations, he said "And, how, o bhikkhus," and so forth. ... ********************************************************** http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html#mental #129818 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 7, 2013 5:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma-anupassana t.sastri Hi Jonothan (Nina, Sarah, Rob E.) - Thank you for welcoming me back. The elapse of five years means we both have significantly advanced our knowledge of the Dhamma. Such improvement should make our discussion today more valuable than before! > Jon: > The question is whether the 4 classes of anupassana are mutually exclusive, or whether a dhamma may fall under more than 1 of the 4 classes. T: There is no question in my mind about the fact that a dhamma may be categorized into several groups within the 37 bodhipakkhiya dhammas. For example, Sati is seen in the four foundations (satipatthana), satindriya in the 5 spiritual faculties, satibala in the the 5 powers, and satibojjhanga in the 7 awakening factors. ............ >Jon: In the commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta, as translated in "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, the introduction to the 4th section (dhammas) gives 2 explanations as to how the 4 classes are related to each other (see below). T: I can only understand the second explanation, but it is obvious. For example, the contemplation on feeling is for "the laying hold of the aggregate of feeling", i.e. for abandoning craving, aversion, and delusion caused by feeling. ........... >Jon: As I read these explanations, dhammas may fall under more than a single contemplation. This suggests to me that the 4-fold classification is for assistance in comprehension by the listener/reader, rather than for any other (i.e., doctrinal) reason. T: Ven. Soma himself explains it differently. He says that only one of the four objects of contemplation (kaya, vedana, citta, dhamma) is supposed to be chosen by the meditator, according to his/her character, temperament and cognizing slant. Read on! .............. "All the four different objects of mindfulness: body, feeling, consciousness and mental objects, have to be understood before one reaches sanctitude. According to character, temperament and cognizing slant, one can make however only one of these the preliminary object of contemplation. It is often the case that owing to a lack of proper understanding of oneself one has to try all objects before one gets to know what suits one best for the preliminary work. The choice is made more difficult by the fact that most of us have no clear-cut natures and are a mixture of a little of every possible human characteristic. In these circumstances there is no alternative to the method of trial and error. But the earnest ones will find their way with persistence and sustained effort. "By character there are two types determined by the excess of sensuous qualities of craving, or of the asensuous qualities of abstract beliefs that make up their personality. The craving type is generally extrovert; the other is generally introvert. According to temperament there are those whose mental functioning is slow, those who are languid mentally and those who are mentally keen, the nervous type. But here it must be understood that the terms languid and nervous have no necessary connection with calm and excitement. The nervous often keep cool when the languid fluster. The nervous type is sensitive, but strong and vigorous and keen. The nervous think forcefully and clearly. The languid are sluggish, inert, and weak, unclear, discursive, and often mixed-up in thought. Cognizing slant is either intuitive or intellective." "According to character and temperament the body-object is recommended for the languid extravert and the feeling-object for the nervous extrovert. For the languid introvert the consciousness-object is recommended, and for the nervous introvert, mental objects." "According to cognizing slant and temperament the body-object is pointed out for the mentally slow who belong to the intuitive kind which makes concentration its vehicle for progress, and for the mentally keen of this kind the feeling-object. For the mentally slow who belong to the intellective kind which makes insight its vehicle the consciousness-object is recommended, and to the mentally keen of this kind the mental object." ............... That makes sense for me. Be happy, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Tep (and Nina) > > Welcome back from me! > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > > > > Dear Nina (Sarah, Rob E.), - > > ... > > T: Many thanks for pointing out that kaya, vedana, citta, and dhamma are "actually dhammas, realities". It is true! > > > > However, I think the reason why our Greatest Teacher, the Buddha, groups these realities for anupassana into kaya-anupassana, vedana-anupassana, citta-anupassana, and dhamma-anupassana is because each anupassana has its advantages that would not be fully realized if they are lumped together in one 'dhamma-anupassana'. > > > > For example, anapanasati (only the first tetrad) and kayagatasati are under kaya-anupassana; yet, rupakkhandha is under dhamma-anupassana. Vedana-anupassana is separated from the anupassana of vedana-khandha that is under dhamma-anupassana. > > =============== > > J: The question is whether the 4 classes of anupassana are mutually exclusive, or whether a dhamma may fall under more than 1 of the 4 classes. > > In the commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta, as translated in "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, the introduction to the 4th section (dhammas) gives 2 explanations as to how the 4 classes are related to each other (see below). > > As I read these explanations, dhammas may fall under more than a single contemplation. This suggests to me that the 4-fold classification is for assistance in comprehension by the listener/reader, rather than for any other (i.e., doctrinal) reason. > > What do you think? > > Jon > > > "The Way of Mindfulness: The Satipatthana Sutta and Its Commentary", by Soma Thera. > > ********************************************************** > After explaining the Arousing of Mindfulness of the sixteenfold contemplation of consciousness, the Master said: "And, how, o bhikkhus," in order to expound the fivefold contemplation of mental objects [dhamma], — things spiritual and material. > > [First explanation] > Further, the laying hold of pure corporeality or materiality was taught by the Blessed One in the instruction on body-contemplation, and in the instruction on the contemplation of feeling and consciousness, the laying hold of the purely spiritual. Now in order to teach the laying hold of a mixture of the material and the spiritual, he said, "And, how, o bhikkhus," and so forth. > > [Second explanation] > Or in the contemplation on the body the laying hold of the aggregate of corporeality or materiality was spoken of by the Master; in the contemplation on feeling, the laying hold of the aggregate of feeling; in the contemplation on mind, the laying hold of the aggregate of consciousness; and now in order to speak of even the laying hold of the aggregates of perception and formations, he said "And, how, o bhikkhus," and so forth. ... > > ********************************************************** > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html#mental > #129819 From: Kanchana Chuathong Date: Sun Apr 7, 2013 6:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is fear? kchuathong Fear is dosa cetasika which is akusala. Fear is also dhamma which is anatta. No one want to fear, but it arises because of conditons which is attachment to oneself. Best wishes Kanchana. ________________________________ From: Lukas Dear friends, What is fear? <....> #129820 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun Apr 7, 2013 12:23 pm Subject: Re: What atta is denied? kenhowardau Hi Robert E, I was trying to make a point. Referring to a recent quote from Nina I said if we could all just consider it and absorb its meaning there would be no more DSG disagreements on doctrinal interpretations. Conditionality means there is no control. It means the Buddha's teaching was a description of the way things are; it wass not an instruction (to take control of things). But, probably, we are never going to agree on that. And who cares if we don't? it's just the way things are. :-) --------- <. . .> >> KH: There is complete disagreement. We have one DSG member who thinks the non-self of dhammas denies only an ancient Hindu concept of Atman. >> > RE: I think that is included. The Buddha denied an eternal self. ---------- KH: Yes, it is included, but Alex was saying it was exclusive. He was saying anatta denied only the ancient idea of Atman, and did not deny the meaning of the English word `self' (person, sentient being). To get back to my point: why does Alex deny this? Ultimately it is because he does not agree on the non-controllability (no formal meditation) issue. --------------- >> KH: We have others who think `non-self' means that conditioned dhammas don't really exist. >> > RE: Who said that non-self = no dhammas? I'm not familiar with that idea. --------------- KH: We can't even agree on what has been said! :-) The idea of `no dhammas' is a common one. We have often been told that the term "paramattha dhammas (absolute realities)" does not appear in the Tipitaka - only in the ancient commentaries. The point being that it was only the commentaries, and not the Tipitaka, that took the teaching of conditioned dhammas literally. ----------------------- > RE: I have talked in this thread about the nature of dhammas, not of them not existing. ---------------------- KH: You have said a lot of things at different times. On more than one occasion you have strongly agreed with Howard's contention that conditioned dhammas are not absolute realities: >>> Howard: Consciousness functions for a bit as seeing consciousness and then moves right on to hearing consciousness. We clearly note the qualitative difference but then, IMO, go too far in conceiving a "sight entity" followed by a separate "sound entity". I think of waves in the ocean: Through thinking they are distinguished, but they are not separate entities except as a matter of convention. >>> >> RE: I think you answered my question better than the way I asked it, so I'll just stick with what you said in response! I do understand what you are saying - and the important point, that the postulating of a discrete separate arising object for each instance of sensory experience [eg visual object] may be mentally creating an object that does not exist in its own right.>> --------------------------- >> KH: And we have others who think `non-self' denies the existence of a soul (lasting entity). >> > RE: Atman is a form of soul – <. . .> ----------------- KH: No argument there! I meant anatta denies the existence of a soul; it does not deny the existence of conditioned dhammas. It does not deny that dhammas have sabhava or "own being" or "existence in their own right" etc. But more importantly, why do we have these quibbles? Ultimately we have them because we disagree on the non-controlability (no formal bhavana) issue. Don't we? :-) ------ <. . .> >> KH We need to be absolutely certain about what the Buddha taught. >> > RE: Well clearly there's no certainty here at all, only very strongly held opinion, ------ KH: I would like to assure you there is some certainty. There are certainly two ways of understanding the Dhamma. One is to understand the Dhamma as a description, the other is to understand it as a prescription. And the two do not mix! That is for certain. We can never agree on any point of Dhamma while we disagree on the formal practice issue. Ken H #129821 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Apr 7, 2013 2:06 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma-anupassana rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > > T: Ven. Soma himself explains it differently. He says that only one of the four objects of contemplation (kaya, vedana, citta, dhamma) is supposed to be chosen by the meditator, according to his/her character, temperament and cognizing slant. Read on! > .............. > dear Tep yes its a bit unfortunate about Ven Somas misunderstanding. Can we decide what the next moment is? I don't think so. Is it seeing or hearing or feeling or dosa or metta or delusion or sound that just arose? It is all happening because of conditions that we are not even aware of and it is all happening very fast. In the "Dispeller of Delusion"(PTS) p 137 paragraph 564 it says: In respect of the classification of the Foundations of Mindfulness. And this also takes place in multiple consciousness in the prior stage (prior to supramundane). For it lays hold of the body with one consciousness and with others feeling etc."endquote robert > "All the four different objects of mindfulness: body, feeling, consciousness and mental objects, have to be understood before one reaches sanctitude. According to character, temperament and cognizing slant, one can make however only one of these the preliminary object of contemplation. It is often the case that owing to a lack of proper understanding of oneself one has to try all objects before one gets to know what suits one best for the preliminary work. The choice is made more difficult by the fact that most of us have no clear-cut natures and are a mixture of a little of every possible human characteristic. In these circumstances there is no alternative to the method of trial and error. But the earnest ones will find their way with persistence and sustained effort. > > "By character there are two types determined by the excess of sensuous qualities of craving, or of the asensuous qualities of abstract beliefs that make up their personality. The craving type is generally extrovert; the other is generally introvert. According to temperament there are those whose mental functioning is slow, those who are languid mentally and those who are mentally keen, the nervous type. But here it must be understood that the terms languid and nervous have no necessary connection with calm and excitement. The nervous often keep cool when the languid fluster. The nervous type is sensitive, but strong and vigorous and keen. The nervous think forcefully and clearly. The languid are sluggish, inert, and weak, unclear, discursive, and often mixed-up in thought. Cognizing slant is either intuitive or intellective." > > "According to character and temperament the body-object is recommended for the languid extravert and the feeling-object for the nervous extrovert. For the languid introvert the consciousness-object is recommended, and for the nervous introvert, mental objects." > > "According to cognizing slant and temperament the body-object is pointed out for the mentally slow who belong to the intuitive kind which makes concentration its vehicle for progress, and for the mentally keen of this kind the feeling-object. For the mentally slow who belong to the intellective kind which makes insight its vehicle the consciousness-object is recommended, and to the mentally keen of this kind the mental object." > ............... > > That makes sense for me. > > Be happy, > Tep > === > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > > Hi Tep (and Nina) > > > > Welcome back from me! > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Nina (Sarah, Rob E.), - > > > ... > > > T: Many thanks for pointing out that kaya, vedana, citta, and dhamma are "actually dhammas, realities". It is true! > > > > > > However, I think the reason why our Greatest Teacher, the Buddha, groups these realities for anupassana into kaya-anupassana, vedana-anupassana, citta-anupassana, and dhamma-anupassana is because each anupassana has its advantages that would not be fully realized if they are lumped together in one 'dhamma-anupassana'. > > > > > > For example, anapanasati (only the first tetrad) and kayagatasati are under kaya-anupassana; yet, rupakkhandha is under dhamma-anupassana. Vedana-anupassana is separated from the anupassana of vedana-khandha that is under dhamma-anupassana. > > > =============== > > > > J: The question is whether the 4 classes of anupassana are mutually exclusive, or whether a dhamma may fall under more than 1 of the 4 classes. > > > > In the commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta, as translated in "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, the introduction to the 4th section (dhammas) gives 2 explanations as to how the 4 classes are related to each other (see below). > > > > As I read these explanations, dhammas may fall under more than a single contemplation. This suggests to me that the 4-fold classification is for assistance in comprehension by the listener/reader, rather than for any other (i.e., doctrinal) reason. > > > > What do you think? > > > > Jon > > > > > > "The Way of Mindfulness: The Satipatthana Sutta and Its Commentary", by Soma Thera. > > > > ********************************************************** > > After explaining the Arousing of Mindfulness of the sixteenfold contemplation of consciousness, the Master said: "And, how, o bhikkhus," in order to expound the fivefold contemplation of mental objects [dhamma], — things spiritual and material. > > > > [First explanation] > > Further, the laying hold of pure corporeality or materiality was taught by the Blessed One in the instruction on body-contemplation, and in the instruction on the contemplation of feeling and consciousness, the laying hold of the purely spiritual. Now in order to teach the laying hold of a mixture of the material and the spiritual, he said, "And, how, o bhikkhus," and so forth. > > > > [Second explanation] > > Or in the contemplation on the body the laying hold of the aggregate of corporeality or materiality was spoken of by the Master; in the contemplation on feeling, the laying hold of the aggregate of feeling; in the contemplation on mind, the laying hold of the aggregate of consciousness; and now in order to speak of even the laying hold of the aggregates of perception and formations, he said "And, how, o bhikkhus," and so forth. ... > > > > ********************************************************** > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html#mental > > > #129822 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Apr 7, 2013 2:21 pm Subject: Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > > Op 4-apr-2013, om 19:50 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > Just to repeat, it cannot be "Nina" nor "wise cittas" that > > communicate directly. Rupas have to be produced, perceived and > > thought about before anything is communicated or understood. > ----- > N: There are ruupas: bodily intimation, kayavi~n~natti, and speech > intimation, vaci vi~n~natti. Kusala citta or akusala citta can > produce these. You see again that life is just naama and ruupa > arising because of conditions. In conventional language we say: there > is the speaker and the listener. For the listener it may not be the > right time to receive the teachings. It often happens, you hear > something but it does not mean so much. Then you hear it again and it > clicks. It all depends on the development of pa~n~naa, has it ripened > enough to receive the truth? It is not you who understands. Here we > have another example. For some it may not have any meaning to hear: > It is not you who understands. Thanks Nina. Is it possible to explain how understanding is communicated through the spoken word? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - #129823 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 7, 2013 6:11 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma-anupassana t.sastri Dear Robert K (rjkp) - So you thought the Ven. Soma's idea on meditation-object-selection for individual mindfulness training is incorrect. But I know that his idea is right simply by reflecting on myself. I am a "nervous type" and the Contemplation on Feeling (vedana-anupassana) fits me like a glove! [Soma Thera:] "According to character, temperament and cognizing slant, one can make however only one of these the preliminary object of contemplation. "The nervous often keep cool when the languid fluster. The nervous type is sensitive, but strong and vigorous and keen. The nervous think forcefully and clearly. "According to character and temperament the body-object is recommended for the languid extravert and the feeling-object for the nervous extrovert. [endquote] ......... RobertK: Can we decide what the next moment is? I don't think so. Is it seeing or hearing or feeling or dosa or metta or delusion or sound that just arose? It is all happening because of conditions that we are not even aware of and it is all happening very fast. T: In meditation we don't think about the next moment, Robert. [SN 36.7 Gelañña Sutta: ] "In regard to both body and the pleasant feeling he dwells contemplating impermanence, dwells contemplating evanescence, dwells contemplating detachment, dwells contemplating cessation, dwells contemplating relinquishment. And in him who thus dwells, the underlying tendency to lust in regard to body and pleasant feeling vanishes." Be happy, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > > T: Ven. Soma himself explains it differently. He says that only one of the four objects of contemplation (kaya, vedana, citta, dhamma) is supposed to be chosen by the meditator, according to his/her character, temperament and cognizing slant. Read on! > > .............. > > > dear Tep > yes its a bit unfortunate about Ven Somas misunderstanding. > > Can we decide what the next moment is? I don't think so. Is it seeing or hearing or feeling or dosa or metta or delusion or sound that just arose? It is all happening because of conditions that we are not even aware of and it is all happening very fast. > > In the "Dispeller of Delusion"(PTS) p 137 paragraph 564 it says: > > In respect of the classification of the Foundations of Mindfulness. And this also takes place in multiple consciousness in the prior stage (prior to supramundane). For it lays hold of the body with one consciousness and with others feeling etc."endquote > robert > #129824 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 7, 2013 8:36 pm Subject: Correct Meanings of Self & Non-self. t.sastri Hi Rob E. - I was gladdened by your reply to Ken H on the correct meanings of self, Self, and non-self. However, the useful information in the message may be hidden in the long dialog. So I thought it might be good to bring up the key points so that they are clearly seen. [Rob E. :] 1. No one disagrees with the non-self of dhammas, as they arise and pass away. Non-self does not mean no dhammas or that they do not exist. 2. Atman is a form of soul - it is the "inner self" which is an eternal divine form of self. The word "anatta" means "no self or soul," as atta/atman means self or soul. 3. In Hindu philosophy the idea of self has several different meanings. If one says "inner self" or Self with a capital S, it means the divine self within, which is the equivalent of what we think of as an eternal soul, free of space and time. 4. The Buddha denied an eternal self. When the Buddha says, as a proof of anatta, if objects, thoughts, etc., were part of your Atman, divine self or eternal soul, then you would be able to make them do what you want, but you can't, so they are not part of such a self or soul. The Buddha uses the lack of control of phenomena as a proof that they have the characteristic of anatta, that they are not amenable to personal control, because of course a divine Godlike self would have some influence over phenomena. 5. If you go to a minute irreducible level of the smallest units of reality, in other words the paramatha or ultimate level of reality, then you can observe the non-controllability and changeability of dhammas, dissatisfaction brought by fleeting dhammas, and the dukkha caused by attachment/clinging to dhammas, then you can see the true activity of anatta in action, close up. 6. When someone see a contradiction with the truth that "dhammas, the ultimate irreducible actual building blocks of experience, are totally lacking any properties of self", it is because he only wants to talk about the paramatha level. Thus he fails to see the implications of no-self/no-soul on the everyday level can be applied on the dhamma level and vice versa. ........... Thanks, Robert. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Ken H. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > Hi Robert E, > > ... ... ... > > KH: I thought it would good idea in my "Question about Mahayana" thread to find out exactly who meant what by "anatta." I see someone has changed the thread title to "What atta is denied?" which seems suitable. Do you think we have answered the question? > > No, and I don't think "which atta is denied" as if, like the Highlander series, "there can only be one." It's ridiculous. We're talking about something that doesn't exist, and you're concerned about which nonexistent version doesn't exist. None of them exist, because they're all concepts. > > Anatta is not a thing, as I've been trying to tell you for ten years. It's the absence of any kind of self. There is no self associated with dhammas, including their own precious little "own-being" self, and there is no self anywhere else either. > > You want to know "which room does a unicorn not exist in? Is it the livingroom or the kitchen that the unicorn is not in, or is it the backyard?" The answer is that the unicorn doesn't exist in any room, because there are no unicorns anywhere, except in your mind. > > Best, > Rob E. > > = = = = = = = = = = = > #129825 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 7, 2013 9:51 pm Subject: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, This was a good lesson reminding us not to attach too much importance to the stories which are objects of our thinking. Thinking arises, it is conditioned and we cannot prevent it, but we can remember that what really matters is learning the truth of the reality appearing right now. Ivan’s body was laid in state in the temple with one hand stretched out so that we could sprinkle water over it and remember his good deeds. Ivan had always encouraged me to keep on writing about the Dhamma. I was disinclined to use a computer but he had persuaded me to start writing on the computer, so that I could share what I wrote with many people. Acharn remarked: “So, I smile to Ivan, and may he appreciate all my good deeds. The Buddha did not teach anyone to cry, because that is akusala. At the moment of kusala there is no aversion (dosa), no crying, but appreciation.” When I said that there are conditions for aversion and sadness, she said: “When there is understanding one can see that paññå is the best of all conditioned realities, that it is a precious thing in one’s life. Everything is past in one’s life, all the time. It passes away never to come back.” I remarked that intellectual understanding does not really help. It helps for a while and then it is gone and sadness arises again. Acharn answered: “The accumulation of right understanding can become stronger, better than other accumulations. Without intellectual understanding how could there be stronger understanding? We have to go step by step, like climbing a mountain. We cannot reach the top immediately. Each step leads to more right understanding.” We have accumulated such an amount of attachment, ignorance and wrong view. Acharn explained that it has to be eradicated little by little, very, very little at a time, but that this is better than none at all. We have to be coura- geous and patient to develop understanding of one reality at a time. Elle, Ivan’s wife, asked Acharn how to cope with sadness and loneliness. She found it so very difficult to be alone in the house. Acharn explained that one is not alone when one studies the word of the Buddha; one is in his presence, he is addressing his words to us. This is true, but we have to listen again and again until there is more understanding of whatever appears at the present moment. ------- Nina. #129826 From: "Kalpa" Date: Mon Apr 8, 2013 1:03 am Subject: Chatta sangayana kapilabs Dear friends, is there way to run Chatta sangayana tipitaka 4 in mac os...? #129827 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Apr 8, 2013 3:41 am Subject: Vinnana translation truth_aerator Dear all, I wonder about the most precise translation of vinnana. I know that some people prefer to translate it as "consciousness", but not all. For example, vinnana is made of two words vi+nana. nana = knowledge Prefix "vi-" means something like "dis-" For example: yoga = connection, bond vippayoga (vi + yoga) = separation vippayutta= separated I wonder if vinnana could be translated as being discernment disassociate from knowledge or if it is deluded knowledge of (I and object for that I). For example: what if cakkhu vinnana means that there is wrong discrimination of Self and form that Self sees. Same with other senses. In conditionality of 5 aggregates, vinnana seems to be the most complex one. Sanna (and vedana) require contact. But vinnana requires entire namarupa, and in D.O. it is effect of sankhara. Interesting addition is that prefix sa- in sanna could be sam= together samyutta = connected; combined; bound together. Interestingly sanna fits "consciousness" better by being less complex than vinnana. Any comments? With best wishes, Alex #129828 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 8, 2013 3:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vinnana translation nilovg Dear Alex, Op 7-apr-2013, om 19:41 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > For example, vinnana is made of two words vi+nana. > nana = knowledge > Prefix "vi-" means something like "dis-" ----- N: Vi can also mean: all around. In vipassanaa: seeing all around, thoroughly. Vi~n~naa.na clearly knows an object. Seeing clearly knows visible object. If we focus too much on word meanings we may forget that the teachings are about *now*. If we understand better the characteriustic of seeing we shall also know what vi~n~naa.na is. Sam and sa~n~naa seem to me without connection. You recognize immediately what is seen as people or things. Then you can get to know the characteristic of sa~n~naa. We remember all day long. Nina. #129829 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 8, 2013 4:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 7-apr-2013, om 6:21 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > Here we > > have another example. For some it may not have any meaning to hear: > > It is not you who understands. > > Thanks Nina. Is it possible to explain how understanding is > communicated through the spoken word? ------ N: It can.t. Understanding develops, nobody else can do that for you. But one can help others with mettaa and karu.naa to begin developing understanding. Citta thinks of others with mettaa and karu.naa and kusala citta motivates speech. But, as I said, it depends on whether it is the right time for the other person to hear with appreciation what is said. The words may be a condition to consider more the truth of Dhamma. Or he may despise what he hjears, disapprove of it. Possible, it depends on conditions. Or he may change his mind later on, even after ten years, one never knows. Do you find this acceptable, or is there something else you want to know? Nina. #129830 From: "azita" Date: Mon Apr 8, 2013 11:33 am Subject: Re: What is fear? gazita2002 SawatdeeKhunKanchana, Thank you for this precise post - short but full of truth. We don't like dosa because its accompanied by unpleasant feeling (and no-one likes that) but if for a brief moment there is some understanding that it is anatta and that its also conditioned, then there just might be some lessening of the clinging to having less dosa Live for understanding azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kanchana Chuathong wrote: > > Fear is dosa cetasika which is akusala. Fear is also dhamma which is anatta. No one want to fear, but it arises because of conditons which is attachment to oneself. > Best wishes > Kanchana. > #129831 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Apr 8, 2013 12:06 pm Subject: Re: What atta is denied? epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > Conditionality means there is no control. I agree. > It means the Buddha's teaching was a description of the way things are; it was not an instruction (to take control of things). I take the Buddha at his word. When he describes a situation I accept it as a description. When he speaks in clear imperative terms, I take it as an instruction. I think that is a sane way to understand what someone has said. If someone said to me "Go to the store and get some milk" if I took that as only a description and did not get the milk, they would think I was either uncooperative or mentally deficient. However, if they said "The ceiling is white" and I took that as an instruction to pain the ceiling red, that would be equally weird. In other words, an instruction is an instruction and a description is a description. When the Buddha says "There is the case where a monk..." goes and practices anapanasati, you can take that as merely a description if you like, but the detailed instructions as to how to follow the sequence of steps being detailed there show that it does not apply to a particular monk, but is an instructional sequence for all practitioners of that particular procedure. Even if you argue with that, there are cases where the Buddha clearly uses an imperative and says "Strive with all your might or you will regret it," and if that is taken as a description not an instruction then one is not reading accurately. That's my view anyway. You can interpret *everything* as a description because you already believe that is *all* the Buddha could possibly teach, but that is just your own view, not what he actually said. > But, probably, we are never going to agree on that. Probably not. Because I think you can be influenced by an instruction and still not have control over how it goes, whether you do it or not, or how you do it. It can still have its effect and one can still practice, just not with any control over how it goes or with any definite outcome. > And who cares if we don't? it's just the way things are. :-) We can agree on that. > --------- > <. . .> > >> KH: There is complete disagreement. We have one DSG member who thinks the non-self of dhammas denies only an ancient Hindu concept of Atman. > >> > > > RE: I think that is included. The Buddha denied an eternal self. > ---------- > > KH: Yes, it is included, but Alex was saying it was exclusive. He was saying anatta denied only the ancient idea of Atman, and did not deny the meaning of the English word `self' (person, sentient being). It's a complex issue, involving a study of Atta/Atman, because the Hindu conception of Self/self is so different than ours. Obviously if one says there is a "self" in the sense of the basic functioning of the organism, as I think Alex does, then I would say that type of "self" is described by the Buddha as being nothing other than the five kandhas, shifting selfless processes, so there really is no entity or person in such a self, it is just a mechanical process moved along by conditions, not by a "self-entity." And so, to me I don't call that a 'self' because it just leads to confusion. I say that the person and body are driven along by conditions and there is no self within or pertaining to such an organism. Alex may disagree and then I would disagree with him and agree with you I guess. But I would rather look at the operation of the "person" in some detail before determining whether we agree or not. If he thinks there is a 'self' within consciousness sort of controlling and organizing everything that the "person" does, then I disagree with that comepletely, as I believe that is an illusion of thought, and doesn't exist any more than a unicorn. > To get back to my point: why does Alex deny this? Ultimately it is because he does not agree on the non-controllability (no formal meditation) issue. Well I guess I'm the monkey in the middle because I don't believe that there is a "self" that can control anything - even in meditation - but I do believe that meditation can be practiced and have its effects, but not because there is anyone controlling it. If I fall in the water I will get wet. It doesn't matter if I fall or if I jump, I still get wet. If I meditate, meditation takes place, even though I have no control. It comes from the Buddha and if that instruction influences me, then it will have whatever effects it has, quickly or slowly, within this lifetime or not. There's no control over that. The Buddha has pointed out those who develop samatha first, then later insight, and vice versa. There's no control over that either - it just depends on the propensities of a given individual in this lifetime. Practice, yes - control, no. Even if you practice or not is not in control. I've been talking about meditation quite enthusiastically but it's been quite a while since I've been sitting, because my volition does not seem to go in that direction. There's resistance to sitting, so I don't do it most of the time. That's also not in anyone's control. If I wind up sitting, that's not in control either - it will mean that particular volition has arisen and causes me to sit, so there's no person really deciding anything, just various thoughts about it. It's all 100% conditional. It's also 100% conditional whether I decide to eat at 5 or 7 or forget to eat altogether. All according to conditions and no decision that can really be made about anything. Sometimes I suddenly realize that I got distracted and forgot to eat, even though I decided to eat a while ago. Why does this happen? X or Y arises and that's it, citta is taken away to some other object - I can't really decide, just think I decide. Then whatever happens happens. > --------------- > >> KH: We have others who think `non-self' means that conditioned dhammas don't really exist. > >> > > > RE: Who said that non-self = no dhammas? I'm not familiar with that idea. > --------------- > > KH: We can't even agree on what has been said! :-) The idea of `no dhammas' is a common one. We have often been told that the term "paramattha dhammas (absolute realities)" does not appear in the Tipitaka - only in the ancient commentaries. The point being that it was only the commentaries, and not the Tipitaka, that took the teaching of conditioned dhammas literally. > > ----------------------- > > RE: I have talked in this thread about the nature of dhammas, not of them not existing. > ---------------------- > > KH: You have said a lot of things at different times. On more than one occasion you have strongly agreed with Howard's contention that conditioned dhammas are not absolute realities: > > >>> Howard: Consciousness functions for a bit as seeing consciousness and then moves right on to hearing consciousness. We clearly note the qualitative difference but then, IMO, go too far in conceiving a "sight entity" followed by a separate "sound entity". I think of waves in the ocean: Through thinking they are distinguished, but they are not separate entities except as a matter of > convention. >>> > >> RE: I think you answered my question better than the way I asked it, so I'll just stick with what you said in response! I do understand what you are saying - and the important point, that the postulating of a discrete separate arising object for each instance of sensory experience [eg visual object] may be mentally creating an object that does not exist in its own right.>> > > --------------------------- > >> KH: And we have others who think `non-self' denies the existence of a soul (lasting entity). > >> > > > RE: Atman is a form of soul – <. . .> > ----------------- > > KH: No argument there! I meant anatta denies the existence of a soul; it does not deny the existence of conditioned dhammas. Never said it does. My discussion with Howard was about the nature of dhammas, not that they don't exist. I guess to you if I say there is not a discrete static entity that can be totally defined as X or Y that to you means I am denying their existence. You should go back to my examples of things that exist in a state of change, so we can look at whether that is mutally acceptable or not. A man walking is still a man, but he is changing from moment to moment. A man aging is still a man, but he is changing and getting older. A dhamma arising has different minute properties of existence than a dhamma falling away, but it is still a dhamma. Yet it is not exactly the same in structure or function at any given sub-moment because it is constantly changing through its tiny life-cycle. > It does not deny that dhammas have sabhava or "own being" or "existence in their own right" etc. > > > But more importantly, why do we have these quibbles? Ultimately we have them because we disagree on the non-controlability (no formal bhavana) issue. Don't we? :-) No, my observations are much more specific than that. I am not constantly thinking about meditation when I am thinking about dhammas. I am trying to grapple with the reality of dhammas so that we are not carrying a false image of a static dhamma like one in a textbook instead of the real thing. That's what I'm driving at, not trying to construct an elaborate defense of meditation. I don't believe in control in any case, so I wouldn't bother. I just think meditation is a concrete reality of its own and that our discussions don't really do justice to those moments. I don't think they're control moments when one is meditating - quite the opposite. I think the idea that floats around this particular group and nowhere else in Buddhism that 'meditation = belief in control' is just weird. It seems ideological to me and doesn't make any sense. It's come down through this particular lineage and I don't think it has any inherent logic, that you must believe in control or you wouldn't bother to meditate, and that no activities in life have any relation to the path. I don't see that in any scriptures or commentaries at all. They all talk about following the precepts. None of them say that everyday activities and objects are only concepts and have no relation to the path. That is not a scripturally-based philosophy as far as I can tell. I've never seen a quote from scripture supplied by anyone, including from commentaries and sub-commentaries, that make such a claim. > ------ > <. . .> > >> KH We need to be absolutely certain about what the Buddha taught. > >> > > > RE: Well clearly there's no certainty here at all, only very strongly held opinion, > ------ > > KH: I would like to assure you there is some certainty. There are certainly two ways of understanding the Dhamma. One is to understand the Dhamma as a description, the other is to understand it as a prescription. And the two do not mix! That great divide that you have between those two ways of looking at the Dhamma is itself a highly-held opinion, it is not a fact. I believe that the Buddha taught *both* and that they do mix. This is evidenced by the fact that he talked about both! And so do the Abhidhamma, commentaries and sub-commentaries. *None* of the scriptural sources make the polarized divide that you do. They all talk about both. I repeat my challenge from the last ten or more years which has never been answered - give me a quote from scriptural authority - the ancients that is - that asserts what you just said. As far as I know, such a quote does not exist! The source of your understanding that there is no instruction in the Buddha's teaching does not come from the scriptures. It comes from the modern dsg interpretation of the scriptures and it is not backed up by the commentaries. If I am wrong, prove it. > That is for certain. We can never agree on any point of Dhamma while we disagree on the formal practice issue. That's your opinion too - I don't agree on that either! :-) Meanwhile I am waiting for a quote [for over a decade now] that gives scriptural authority to the view that meditation is an expression of self-view and is not part of the path, and that the Noble eight-fold path has nothing to do with how one conducts themselves in everyday life. I am happy to see any quote from the ancient commentaries that will support these views - and I don't mean some oblong quote that has to be re-interpreted to suggest that. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = #129832 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Apr 8, 2013 12:12 pm Subject: Re: Correct Meanings of Self & Non-self. epsteinrob Hi Tep. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Rob E. - > > I was gladdened by your reply to Ken H on the correct meanings of self, Self, and non-self. However, the useful information in the message may be hidden in the long dialog. So I thought it might be good to bring up the key points so that they are clearly seen. ... > Thanks, Robert. > > Tep > === That you Tep - that is a great summary and does make more clear the main points! Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #129833 From: Tam Bach Date: Mon Apr 8, 2013 12:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Akusala dhamma conditions kusala by way of Upanissaya Paccayo tambach Dear Sarah, Thank you for your reply, Sarah: Understanding now is the main condition (by pakatu upanissaya paccaya) for more understanding in future and lobha now is the main condition (in the same way) for more lobha in future. The fact that, in truth, any akusala state can condition understanding and any kusala state can condition attachment doesn't alter the fact that what arises now leads to more of the same. If this were not so, the Buddha wouldn't have bothered to share the Dhamma and there'd be no point in listening and carefully considering what's been heard. ---------------------------- Tam B: Yes, indeed. This is the reason I was looking for something in the texts (commentaries and sub commentaries) which really points out the difference between them. Upanissaya paccaya is such a wide and subtle subject, I just got the feeling that our understanding of it is so, so little....I would always appreciate if you or anyone bring in more light about it! Metta, Tam B ======= #129834 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Apr 8, 2013 12:17 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Thanks Nina. Is it possible to explain how understanding is > > communicated through the spoken word? > ------ > N: It can.t. Understanding develops, nobody else can do that for you. > But one can help others with mettaa and karu.naa to begin developing > understanding. Citta thinks of others with mettaa and karu.naa and > kusala citta motivates speech. ... > Do you find this acceptable, or is there something else you want to > know? Thank you, Nina. That is helpful. I guess I am sort of fixated on the details of kamma patha. In other words, as you describe, the kusala cittas motivate speech through speech intimation, etc. and then those rupas of speech are taken up by the cittas of another who can then consider them or reject them. The way that these rupas of speech go from one "person" to the "other" so that they have the opportunity to consider the Dhamma - if, as you say, they are ready, is interesting to me, because it is a kind of contact between the "wise" person who knows Dhamma and someone else who may not have understood or heard the Dhamma. Since the Buddha said that this is an absolute necessity for wisdom to have a chance to develop, I am interested in how it takes place. Also the whole relationship between one person and another through such kamma patha. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = #129835 From: Deanna Date: Mon Apr 8, 2013 1:20 pm Subject: Fwd: [dsg] Digest Number 8885 deannajohnso... Begin forwarded message: > From: Deanna > Date: April 8, 2013, 8:44:37 AM GMT+05:30 > To: No Reply > Subject: Re: [dsg] Digest Number 8885 > > Dearest Nina, > Thank you so much for sharing > your words of understanding > on living and dying. My > condolences on the death > of your beloved. Recently > Bodhi our beloved son died > suddenly. We were shocked > at the sudden realization > of losing him. Your words > are such a tremendous support. > Thank you - I look forward > to hearing more. > Metta, Shakti > > On Apr 7, 2013, at 6:48 PM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com wrote: > >> Dhamma Study Group (DSG) Group >> 12 New Messages Digest #8885 >> 1a Re: Break by "Tep Sastri" t.sastri >> 2a Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 4. by "Tep Sastri" t.sastri >> 3.1 Re: It Is An Illusion, a Mirage ... Vijja = True Knowledge by "Tep Sastri" t.sastri >> 4.1 Re: Dhamma-anupassana by "jonoabb" jonoabb >> 4.2 Re: Dhamma-anupassana by "Tep Sastri" t.sastri >> 4.3 Re: Dhamma-anupassana by "rjkjp1" rjkjp1 >> 4.4 Re: Dhamma-anupassana by "Tep Sastri" t.sastri >> 5a Re: What is fear? by "Kanchana Chuathong" kchuathong >> 6.1 Re: What atta is denied? by "Ken H" kenhowardau >> 7a Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. by "Robert E" epsteinrob >> 8.1 Correct Meanings of Self & Non-self. by "Tep Sastri" t.sastri >> 9 The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 5. by "Nina van Gorkom" nilovg >> Messages >> 1a Re: Break >> Sat Apr 6, 2013 6:45 am (PDT) . Posted by: "Tep Sastri" t.sastri >> Hi Phil, - >> >> Is it possible to reflect on the not-self of the realities, while you are intensely watching a baseball game? >> >> Be happy, >> Tep >> === >> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: >> > >> > >> > Dear all >> > >> > I will be taking a break from DSG during the baseball season.( It consumes my Internet time.) >> > >> > Lukas, if you need any specific support with the challenges that we share, please don't hesitate to contact me off list. >> > >> > Phil >> > >> >> Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (3) . Top ^ >> 2a Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 4. >> Sat Apr 6, 2013 7:13 am (PDT) . Posted by: "Tep Sastri" t.sastri Dear Nina, - >> >> You wrote: >> >> 1) "We also have to develop right understanding of realities life after life so that eventually enlightenment can be attained and defilements eradicated." >> >> 2) "Thinking is usually motivated by akusala (unwholesomeness), and this is the case when we are not intent on what is wholesome, such as generosity, helping others or developing understanding. Citta can think of reality or of what is not a reality, but a concept. When we are living in a dream world all day, thinking of what is not real, we are deluded and the citta is akusala. We should remember that there is no one in the visible object, no person or thing. Visible object is only a kind of rúpa that impinges on the eyesense and that can be seen. We have an idea of "I see", but there is no self who sees, only seeing sees." >> >> T: I think you are saying that right understanding/enlightenment has to arise before defilements are eradicated. But the Buddha teaches in the Sallekha Sutta and Dvedhavitakka Sutta, for example, that kilesas/akusala dhammas must be effaced and abandoned (at least temporarily) before kusala dhammas (including knowing a reality that arises now) can arise. Please correct me if I am mistaken. >> >> Tep >> === >> >> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >> > >> > Dear friends, >> > >> > The Buddha, during countless previous lives as a Bodhisatta, >> > developed wisdom, right understanding, so that in his last life he >> > could become the omniscient Buddha. He developed right understanding >> > again and again of seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, >> > attachment, generosity, of all realities of daily life. We also have >> > to develop right understanding of realities life after life so that >> > eventually enlightenment [1]can be attained and defilements eradicated. >> > >> > Seeing is a reality, it arises and experiences just what is visible, >> > and then it falls away. It arises because of conditions: eyesense and >> > visible object are conditions for seeing, and it is a citta that is >> > the result of kamma, vipÃ¥kacitta. It only sees visible object, but we >> > believe that we see a person or thing. That is thinking, arising on >> > account of what is seen. Thinking is not vipÃ¥kacitta. When we think, >> > the citta may be wholesome citta (kusala citta) or unwholesome citta >> > (akusala citta). It seems that we can see and think at the same time, >> > but only one citta can arise at a time and experience one object. >> > Cittas arise and fall away succeeding one another extremely rapidly >> > and that is why we are deluded about the truth. >> > Thinking is usually motivated by akusala (unwholesomeness), and this >> > is the case when we are not intent on what is wholesome, such as >> > generosity, helping others or developing understanding. Citta can >> > think of reality or of what is not a reality, but a concept. When we >> > are living in a dream world all day, thinking of what is not real, we >> > are deluded and the citta is akusala. We should remember that there >> > is no one in the visible object, no person or thing. Visible object >> > is only a kind of rúpa that impinges on the eyesense and that can be >> > seen. We have an idea of "I see", but there is no self who sees, only >> > seeing sees. >> > Acharn explained: "When thinking of Lodewijk or Ivan, there is >> > attachment and it hinders, it hinders the understanding of seeing, >> > but it takes a long time to really understand this. The Path is very >> > subtle, but very effective, paññå really knows what hinders. >> > Now we do not know what hinders. We cry and we think a lot about the >> > situation we are in. When paññå sees what is a hindrance it cannot >> > hinder any more, because it is understood." >> > Sarah remarked: "People often say that they found it so difficult in >> > the case of separation through death that they did not have a chance >> > to say farewell, but actually, it is just clinging to one's own >> > thought, one's own idea." >> > Acharn Sujin said: "Even that moment is gone, not to be thought about >> > again. It is past and past and past, all the time. Nothing is left, >> > only thinking and memory. Nothing can belong to anyone at all." >> > ------- >> > [1] Enlightenment, in the context of the Buddhist teachings, is >> > highly developed paññå that eradicates defilements and experiences >> > the unconditioned dhamma, nibbÃ¥na. There are different stages of >> > enlightenment. >> > ---------- >> > Nina. >> > >> >> Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (2) . Top ^ >> 3.1 Re: It Is An Illusion, a Mirage ... Vijja = True Knowledge >> Sat Apr 6, 2013 7:26 am (PDT) . Posted by: "Tep Sastri" t.sastri >> Dear Han, Sarah, others - >> >> Forgive my typo: > T: True knowledge (avijja) that abandons self views and conceit(maana) is more precious, I think. The most precious of all is Nibbana. >> >> Of course, vijja is true knowledge. >> Thanks to my brother Han who pointed it out. >> >> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: >> > >> > >> > Hi Sarah, - >> > >> > >S: Just like old times..... >> > T: When 'sanna' ceases, old times also cease. :-) >> > ........... >> > >> > >S: No need to "switch off" or not use conventional language! We have to use it. >> > T: Thanks for agreeing on the usefulness of the conventional language. >> > >> > >S: However, the point was just that sun-rises, roses and diamonds are not dhammas and don't have the characteristic of anicca. >> > T: Why not? >> > >> > >S: Appreciating that only visible object is seen and only tangible object is touched doesn't mean one has to give away all material goods (unless one becomes a monk) or that there is no more clinging to diamonds! >> > T: When you keep things, there is always the thought, 'this is mine'. When there is the thought 'my diamonds', how come there is no clinging? >> > ........... >> > >> > > Be free >> > >S: Being free of wrong view about present realities is most precious of all, don't you think? >> > T: True knowledge (avijja) that abandons self views and conceit(maana) is more precious, I think. The most precious of all is Nibbana. >> > >> > Be well, >> > Tep >> > === >> > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: >> > > >> > > Hi Tep, >> > > >> > > Just like old times..... >> > > >> > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: >> > > >> > > > It is great to discuss the Abhidhamma with you, but my conventional-language-habit is still a little too difficult to switch off. >> > > ... >> > > S: No need to "switch off" or not use conventional language! We have to use it. However, the point was just that sun-rises, roses and diamonds are not dhammas and don't have the characteristic of anicca. >> > > > ............... >> > > >> > > > T: Thanks for the sutta quote. I appreciate it a lot. >> > > > BTW Have you got rid of your ruby, pearl and diamond collections yet? :-) >> > > ... >> > > S: Ha, ha! Actually, I've never a collector of jewellery to my mother's disappointment! >> > > >> > > Seriously, whether or not I had such a collection would make no difference to the truth about realities. Appreciating that only visible object is seen and only tangible object is touched doesn't mean one has to give away all material goods (unless one becomes a monk) or that there is no more clinging to diamonds! >> > > >> > > > Be free, >> > > ..... >> > > >> > > S: Being free of wrong view about present realities is most precious of all, don't you think? >> > > >> > > Metta >> > > >> > > Sarah >> > > ===== >> > > >> > >> >> Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (48) . Top ^ >> 4.1 Re: Dhamma-anupassana >> Sat Apr 6, 2013 7:49 am (PDT) . Posted by: "jonoabb" jonoabb Hi Tep (and Nina) >> >> Welcome back from me! >> >> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: >> > >> > >> > Dear Nina (Sarah, Rob E.), - >> > ... >> > T: Many thanks for pointing out that kaya, vedana, citta, and dhamma are "actually dhammas, realities". It is true! >> > >> > However, I think the reason why our Greatest Teacher, the Buddha, groups these realities for anupassana into kaya-anupassana, vedana-anupassana, citta-anupassana, and dhamma-anupassana is because each anupassana has its advantages that would not be fully realized if they are lumped together in one 'dhamma-anupassana'. >> > >> > For example, anapanasati (only the first tetrad) and kayagatasati are under kaya-anupassana; yet, rupakkhandha is under dhamma-anupassana. Vedana-anupassana is separated from the anupassana of vedana-khandha that is under dhamma-anupassana. >> > =============== >> >> J: The question is whether the 4 classes of anupassana are mutually exclusive, or whether a dhamma may fall under more than 1 of the 4 classes. >> >> In the commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta, as translated in "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, the introduction to the 4th section (dhammas) gives 2 explanations as to how the 4 classes are related to each other (see below). >> >> As I read these explanations, dhammas may fall under more than a single contemplation. This suggests to me that the 4-fold classification is for assistance in comprehension by the listener/reader, rather than for any other (i.e., doctrinal) reason. >> >> What do you think? >> >> Jon >> >> "The Way of Mindfulness: The Satipatthana Sutta and Its Commentary", by Soma Thera. >> >> ********************************************************** >> After explaining the Arousing of Mindfulness of the sixteenfold contemplation of consciousness, the Master said: "And, how, o bhikkhus," in order to expound the fivefold contemplation of mental objects [dhamma], — things spiritual and material. >> >> [First explanation] >> Further, the laying hold of pure corporeality or materiality was taught by the Blessed One in the instruction on body-contemplation, and in the instruction on the contemplation of feeling and consciousness, the laying hold of the purely spiritual. Now in order to teach the laying hold of a mixture of the material and the spiritual, he said, "And, how, o bhikkhus," and so forth. >> >> [Second explanation] >> Or in the contemplation on the body the laying hold of the aggregate of corporeality or materiality was spoken of by the Master; in the contemplation on feeling, the laying hold of the aggregate of feeling; in the contemplation on mind, the laying hold of the aggregate of consciousness; and now in order to speak of even the laying hold of the aggregates of perception and formations, he said "And, how, o bhikkhus," and so forth. ... >> >> ********************************************************** >> >> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html#mental >> >> Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (48) . Top ^ >> 4.2 Re: Dhamma-anupassana >> Sat Apr 6, 2013 12:05 pm (PDT) . Posted by: "Tep Sastri" t.sastri >> Hi Jonothan (Nina, Sarah, Rob E.) - >> >> Thank you for welcoming me back. The elapse of five years means we both have significantly advanced our knowledge of the Dhamma. Such improvement should make our discussion today more valuable than before! >> >> > Jon: >> > The question is whether the 4 classes of anupassana are mutually exclusive, or whether a dhamma may fall under more than 1 of the 4 classes. >> >> T: There is no question in my mind about the fact that a dhamma may be categorized into several groups within the 37 bodhipakkhiya dhammas. For example, Sati is seen in the four foundations (satipatthana), satindriya in the 5 spiritual faculties, satibala in the the 5 powers, and satibojjhanga in the 7 awakening factors. >> ............ >> >> >Jon: In the commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta, as translated in "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, the introduction to the 4th section (dhammas) gives 2 explanations as to how the 4 classes are related to each other (see below). >> >> T: I can only understand the second explanation, but it is obvious. For example, the contemplation on feeling is for "the laying hold of the aggregate of feeling", i.e. for abandoning craving, aversion, and delusion caused by feeling. >> ........... >> >> >Jon: As I read these explanations, dhammas may fall under more than a single contemplation. This suggests to me that the 4-fold classification is for assistance in comprehension by the listener/reader, rather than for any other (i.e., doctrinal) reason. >> >> T: Ven. Soma himself explains it differently. He says that only one of the four objects of contemplation (kaya, vedana, citta, dhamma) is supposed to be chosen by the meditator, according to his/her character, temperament and cognizing slant. Read on! >> .............. >> >> "All the four different objects of mindfulness: body, feeling, consciousness and mental objects, have to be understood before one reaches sanctitude. According to character, temperament and cognizing slant, one can make however only one of these the preliminary object of contemplation. It is often the case that owing to a lack of proper understanding of oneself one has to try all objects before one gets to know what suits one best for the preliminary work. The choice is made more difficult by the fact that most of us have no clear-cut natures and are a mixture of a little of every possible human characteristic. In these circumstances there is no alternative to the method of trial and error. But the earnest ones will find their way with persistence and sustained effort. >> >> "By character there are two types determined by the excess of sensuous qualities of craving, or of the asensuous qualities of abstract beliefs that make up their personality. The craving type is generally extrovert; the other is generally introvert. According to temperament there are those whose mental functioning is slow, those who are languid mentally and those who are mentally keen, the nervous type. But here it must be understood that the terms languid and nervous have no necessary connection with calm and excitement. The nervous often keep cool when the languid fluster. The nervous type is sensitive, but strong and vigorous and keen. The nervous think forcefully and clearly. The languid are sluggish, inert, and weak, unclear, discursive, and often mixed-up in thought. Cognizing slant is either intuitive or intellective." >> >> "According to character and temperament the body-object is recommended for the languid extravert and the feeling-object for the nervous extrovert. For the languid introvert the consciousness-object is recommended, and for the nervous introvert, mental objects." >> >> "According to cognizing slant and temperament the body-object is pointed out for the mentally slow who belong to the intuitive kind which makes concentration its vehicle for progress, and for the mentally keen of this kind the feeling-object. For the mentally slow who belong to the intellective kind which makes insight its vehicle the consciousness-object is recommended, and to the mentally keen of this kind the mental object." >> ............... >> >> That makes sense for me. >> >> Be happy, >> Tep >> === >> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: >> > >> > Hi Tep (and Nina) >> > >> > Welcome back from me! >> > >> > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: >> > > >> > > >> > > Dear Nina (Sarah, Rob E.), - >> > > ... >> > > T: Many thanks for pointing out that kaya, vedana, citta, and dhamma are "actually dhammas, realities". It is true! >> > > >> > > However, I think the reason why our Greatest Teacher, the Buddha, groups these realities for anupassana into kaya-anupassana, vedana-anupassana, citta-anupassana, and dhamma-anupassana is because each anupassana has its advantages that would not be fully realized if they are lumped together in one 'dhamma-anupassana'. >> > > >> > > For example, anapanasati (only the first tetrad) and kayagatasati are under kaya-anupassana; yet, rupakkhandha is under dhamma-anupassana. Vedana-anupassana is separated from the anupassana of vedana-khandha that is under dhamma-anupassana. >> > > =============== >> > >> > J: The question is whether the 4 classes of anupassana are mutually exclusive, or whether a dhamma may fall under more than 1 of the 4 classes. >> > >> > In the commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta, as translated in "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, the introduction to the 4th section (dhammas) gives 2 explanations as to how the 4 classes are related to each other (see below). >> > >> > As I read these explanations, dhammas may fall under more than a single contemplation. This suggests to me that the 4-fold classification is for assistance in comprehension by the listener/reader, rather than for any other (i.e., doctrinal) reason. >> > >> > What do you think? >> > >> > Jon >> > >> > >> > "The Way of Mindfulness: The Satipatthana Sutta and Its Commentary", by Soma Thera. >> > >> > ********************************************************** >> > After explaining the Arousing of Mindfulness of the sixteenfold contemplation of consciousness, the Master said: "And, how, o bhikkhus," in order to expound the fivefold contemplation of mental objects [dhamma], — things spiritual and material. >> > >> > [First explanation] >> > Further, the laying hold of pure corporeality or materiality was taught by the Blessed One in the instruction on body-contemplation, and in the instruction on the contemplation of feeling and consciousness, the laying hold of the purely spiritual. Now in order to teach the laying hold of a mixture of the material and the spiritual, he said, "And, how, o bhikkhus," and so forth. >> > >> > [Second explanation] >> > Or in the contemplation on the body the laying hold of the aggregate of corporeality or materiality was spoken of by the Master; in the contemplation on feeling, the laying hold of the aggregate of feeling; in the contemplation on mind, the laying hold of the aggregate of consciousness; and now in order to speak of even the laying hold of the aggregates of perception and formations, he said "And, how, o bhikkhus," and so forth. ... >> > >> > ********************************************************** >> > >> > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html#mental >> > >> >> Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (48) . Top ^ >> 4.3 Re: Dhamma-anupassana >> Sat Apr 6, 2013 9:06 pm (PDT) . Posted by: "rjkjp1" rjkjp1 >> >> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: >> > >> > >> >> > >> > T: Ven. Soma himself explains it differently. He says that only one of the four objects of contemplation (kaya, vedana, citta, dhamma) is supposed to be chosen by the meditator, according to his/her character, temperament and cognizing slant. Read on! >> > .............. >> > >> >> dear Tep >> yes its a bit unfortunate about Ven Somas misunderstanding. >> >> Can we decide what the next moment is? I don't think so. Is it seeing or hearing or feeling or dosa or metta or delusion or sound that just arose? It is all happening because of conditions that we are not even aware of and it is all happening very fast. >> >> In the "Dispeller of Delusion"(PTS) p 137 paragraph 564 it says: >> >> In respect of the classification of the Foundations of Mindfulness. And this also takes place in multiple consciousness in the prior stage (prior to supramundane). For it lays hold of the body with one consciousness and with others feeling etc."endquote >> robert >> >> > "All the four different objects of mindfulness: body, feeling, consciousness and mental objects, have to be understood before one reaches sanctitude. According to character, temperament and cognizing slant, one can make however only one of these the preliminary object of contemplation. It is often the case that owing to a lack of proper understanding of oneself one has to try all objects before one gets to know what suits one best for the preliminary work. The choice is made more difficult by the fact that most of us have no clear-cut natures and are a mixture of a little of every possible human characteristic. In these circumstances there is no alternative to the method of trial and error. But the earnest ones will find their way with persistence and sustained effort. >> > >> > "By character there are two types determined by the excess of sensuous qualities of craving, or of the asensuous qualities of abstract beliefs that make up their personality. The craving type is generally extrovert; the other is generally introvert. According to temperament there are those whose mental functioning is slow, those who are languid mentally and those who are mentally keen, the nervous type. But here it must be understood that the terms languid and nervous have no necessary connection with calm and excitement. The nervous often keep cool when the languid fluster. The nervous type is sensitive, but strong and vigorous and keen. The nervous think forcefully and clearly. The languid are sluggish, inert, and weak, unclear, discursive, and often mixed-up in thought. Cognizing slant is either intuitive or intellective." >> > >> > "According to character and temperament the body-object is recommended for the languid extravert and the feeling-object for the nervous extrovert. For the languid introvert the consciousness-object is recommended, and for the nervous introvert, mental objects." >> > >> > "According to cognizing slant and temperament the body-object is pointed out for the mentally slow who belong to the intuitive kind which makes concentration its vehicle for progress, and for the mentally keen of this kind the feeling-object. For the mentally slow who belong to the intellective kind which makes insight its vehicle the consciousness-object is recommended, and to the mentally keen of this kind the mental object." >> > ............... >> > >> > That makes sense for me. >> > >> > Be happy, >> > Tep >> > === >> > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: >> > > >> > > Hi Tep (and Nina) >> > > >> > > Welcome back from me! >> > > >> > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Dear Nina (Sarah, Rob E.), - >> > > > ... >> > > > T: Many thanks for pointing out that kaya, vedana, citta, and dhamma are "actually dhammas, realities". It is true! >> > > > >> > > > However, I think the reason why our Greatest Teacher, the Buddha, groups these realities for anupassana into kaya-anupassana, vedana-anupassana, citta-anupassana, and dhamma-anupassana is because each anupassana has its advantages that would not be fully realized if they are lumped together in one 'dhamma-anupassana'. >> > > > >> > > > For example, anapanasati (only the first tetrad) and kayagatasati are under kaya-anupassana; yet, rupakkhandha is under dhamma-anupassana. Vedana-anupassana is separated from the anupassana of vedana-khandha that is under dhamma-anupassana. >> > > > =============== >> > > >> > > J: The question is whether the 4 classes of anupassana are mutually exclusive, or whether a dhamma may fall under more than 1 of the 4 classes. >> > > >> > > In the commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta, as translated in "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, the introduction to the 4th section (dhammas) gives 2 explanations as to how the 4 classes are related to each other (see below). >> > > >> > > As I read these explanations, dhammas may fall under more than a single contemplation. This suggests to me that the 4-fold classification is for assistance in comprehension by the listener/reader, rather than for any other (i.e., doctrinal) reason. >> > > >> > > What do you think? >> > > >> > > Jon >> > > >> > > >> > > "The Way of Mindfulness: The Satipatthana Sutta and Its Commentary", by Soma Thera. >> > > >> > > ********************************************************** >> > > After explaining the Arousing of Mindfulness of the sixteenfold contemplation of consciousness, the Master said: "And, how, o bhikkhus," in order to expound the fivefold contemplation of mental objects [dhamma], — things spiritual and material. >> > > >> > > [First explanation] >> > > Further, the laying hold of pure corporeality or materiality was taught by the Blessed One in the instruction on body-contemplation, and in the instruction on the contemplation of feeling and consciousness, the laying hold of the purely spiritual. Now in order to teach the laying hold of a mixture of the material and the spiritual, he said, "And, how, o bhikkhus," and so forth. >> > > >> > > [Second explanation] >> > > Or in the contemplation on the body the laying hold of the aggregate of corporeality or materiality was spoken of by the Master; in the contemplation on feeling, the laying hold of the aggregate of feeling; in the contemplation on mind, the laying hold of the aggregate of consciousness; and now in order to speak of even the laying hold of the aggregates of perception and formations, he said "And, how, o bhikkhus," and so forth. ... >> > > >> > > ********************************************************** >> > > >> > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html#mental >> > > >> > >> >> Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (48) . Top ^ >> 4.4 Re: Dhamma-anupassana >> Sun Apr 7, 2013 1:11 am (PDT) . Posted by: "Tep Sastri" t.sastri Dear Robert K (rjkp) - >> >> So you thought the Ven. Soma's idea on meditation-object-selection for individual mindfulness training is incorrect. But I know that his idea is right simply by reflecting on myself. I am a "nervous type" and the Contemplation on Feeling (vedana-anupassana) fits me like a glove! >> >> [Soma Thera:] "According to character, temperament and cognizing slant, one can make however only one of these the preliminary object of contemplation. >> >> "The nervous often keep cool when the languid fluster. The nervous type is sensitive, but strong and vigorous and keen. The nervous think forcefully and clearly. >> >> "According to character and temperament the body-object is recommended for the >> languid extravert and the feeling-object for the nervous extrovert. [endquote] >> ......... >> >> RobertK: Can we decide what the next moment is? I don't think so. Is it seeing or hearing or feeling or dosa or metta or delusion or sound that just arose? It is all happening because of conditions that we are not even aware of and it is all happening very fast. >> >> T: In meditation we don't think about the next moment, Robert. >> [SN 36.7 Gelañña Sutta: ] "In regard to both body and the pleasant feeling he dwells contemplating impermanence, dwells contemplating evanescence, dwells contemplating detachment, dwells contemplating cessation, dwells contemplating relinquishment. >> And in him who thus dwells, the underlying tendency to lust in regard to body and pleasant feeling vanishes." >> >> Be happy, >> Tep >> === >> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: >> > > >> > > T: Ven. Soma himself explains it differently. He says that only one of the four objects of contemplation (kaya, vedana, citta, dhamma) is supposed to be chosen by the meditator, according to his/her character, temperament and cognizing slant. Read on! >> > > .............. >> > > >> > dear Tep >> > yes its a bit unfortunate about Ven Somas misunderstanding. >> > >> > Can we decide what the next moment is? I don't think so. Is it seeing or hearing or feeling or dosa or metta or delusion or sound that just arose? It is all happening because of conditions that we are not even aware of and it is all happening very fast. >> > >> > In the "Dispeller of Delusion"(PTS) p 137 paragraph 564 it says: >> > >> > In respect of the classification of the Foundations of Mindfulness. And this also takes place in multiple consciousness in the prior stage (prior to supramundane). For it lays hold of the body with one consciousness and with others feeling etc."endquote >> > robert >> > >> >> >> Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (48) . Top ^ >> 5a Re: What is fear? >> Sat Apr 6, 2013 2:12 pm (PDT) . Posted by: "Kanchana Chuathong" kchuathong Fear is dosa cetasika which is akusala. Fear is also dhamma which is anatta. No one want to fear, but it arises because of conditons which is attachment to oneself. >> Best wishes >> Kanchana. >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Lukas >> >> Dear friends, >> What is fear? >> <....> >> >> Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (4) . Top ^ >> 6.1 Re: What atta is denied? >> Sat Apr 6, 2013 7:23 pm (PDT) . Posted by: "Ken H" kenhowardau Hi Robert E, >> >> I was trying to make a point. Referring to a recent quote from Nina I said if we could all just consider it and absorb its meaning there would be no more DSG disagreements on doctrinal interpretations. >> >> Conditionality means there is no control. It means the Buddha's teaching was a description of the way things are; it wass not an instruction (to take control of things). >> >> But, probably, we are never going to agree on that. And who cares if we don't? it's just the way things are. :-) >> >> --------- >> <. . .> >> >> KH: There is complete disagreement. We have one DSG member who thinks the non-self of dhammas denies only an ancient Hindu concept of Atman. >> >> >> >> > RE: I think that is included. The Buddha denied an eternal self. >> ---------- >> >> KH: Yes, it is included, but Alex was saying it was exclusive. He was saying anatta denied only the ancient idea of Atman, and did not deny the meaning of the English word `self' (person, sentient being). >> >> To get back to my point: why does Alex deny this? Ultimately it is because he does not agree on the non-controllability (no formal meditation) issue. >> >> --------------- >> >> KH: We have others who think `non-self' means that conditioned dhammas don't really exist. >> >> >> >> > RE: Who said that non-self = no dhammas? I'm not familiar with that idea. >> --------------- >> >> KH: We can't even agree on what has been said! :-) The idea of `no dhammas' is a common one. We have often been told that the term "paramattha dhammas (absolute realities)" does not appear in the Tipitaka - only in the ancient commentaries. The point being that it was only the commentaries, and not the Tipitaka, that took the teaching of conditioned dhammas literally. >> >> ----------------------- >> > RE: I have talked in this thread about the nature of dhammas, not of them not existing. >> ---------------------- >> >> KH: You have said a lot of things at different times. On more than one occasion you have strongly agreed with Howard's contention that conditioned dhammas are not absolute realities: >> >> >>> Howard: Consciousness functions for a bit as seeing consciousness and then moves right on to hearing consciousness. We clearly note the qualitative difference but then, IMO, go too far in conceiving a "sight entity" followed by a separate "sound entity". I think of waves in the ocean: Through thinking they are distinguished, but they are not separate entities except as a matter of >> convention. >>> >> >> RE: I think you answered my question better than the way I asked it, so I'll just stick with what you said in response! I do understand what you are saying - and the important point, that the postulating of a discrete separate arising object for each instance of sensory experience [eg visual object] may be mentally creating an object that does not exist in its own right.>> >> >> --------------------------- >> >> KH: And we have others who think `non-self' denies the existence of a soul (lasting entity). >> >> >> >> > RE: Atman is a form of soul – <. . .> >> ----------------- >> >> KH: No argument there! I meant anatta denies the existence of a soul; it does not deny the existence of conditioned dhammas. It does not deny that dhammas have sabhava or "own being" or "existence in their own right" etc. >> >> But more importantly, why do we have these quibbles? Ultimately we have them because we disagree on the non-controlability (no formal bhavana) issue. Don't we? :-) >> >> ------ >> <. . .> >> >> KH We need to be absolutely certain about what the Buddha taught. >> >> >> >> > RE: Well clearly there's no certainty here at all, only very strongly held opinion, >> ------ >> >> KH: I would like to assure you there is some certainty. There are certainly two ways of understanding the Dhamma. One is to understand the Dhamma as a description, the other is to understand it as a prescription. And the two do not mix! >> >> That is for certain. We can never agree on any point of Dhamma while we disagree on the formal practice issue. >> >> Ken H >> >> Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (150) . Top ^ >> 7a Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. >> Sat Apr 6, 2013 9:21 pm (PDT) . Posted by: "Robert E" epsteinrob Hi Nina. >> >> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >> > >> > Dear Rob E, >> > >> > Op 4-apr-2013, om 19:50 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: >> > >> > > Just to repeat, it cannot be "Nina" nor "wise cittas" that >> > > communicate directly. Rupas have to be produced, perceived and >> > > thought about before anything is communicated or understood. >> > ----- >> > N: There are ruupas: bodily intimation, kayavi~n~natti, and speech >> > intimation, vaci vi~n~natti. Kusala citta or akusala citta can >> > produce these. You see again that life is just naama and ruupa >> > arising because of conditions. In conventional language we say: there >> > is the speaker and the listener. For the listener it may not be the >> > right time to receive the teachings. It often happens, you hear >> > something but it does not mean so much. Then you hear it again and it >> > clicks. It all depends on the development of pa~n~naa, has it ripened >> > enough to receive the truth? It is not you who understands. Here we >> > have another example. For some it may not have any meaning to hear: >> > It is not you who understands. >> >> Thanks Nina. Is it possible to explain how understanding is communicated through the spoken word? >> >> Best, >> Rob E. >> >> - - - - - - - - - - - - >> >> Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (13) . Top ^ >> 8.1 Correct Meanings of Self & Non-self. >> Sun Apr 7, 2013 3:36 am (PDT) . Posted by: "Tep Sastri" t.sastri Hi Rob E. - >> >> I was gladdened by your reply to Ken H on the correct meanings of self, Self, and non-self. However, the useful information in the message may be hidden in the long dialog. So I thought it might be good to bring up the key points so that they are clearly seen. >> >> [Rob E. :] >> >> 1. No one disagrees with the non-self of dhammas, as they arise and pass away. Non-self does not mean no dhammas or that they do not exist. >> 2. Atman is a form of soul - it is the "inner self" which is an eternal divine form of self. The word "anatta" means "no self or soul," as atta/atman means self or soul. >> 3. In Hindu philosophy the idea of self has several different meanings. If one says "inner self" or Self with a capital S, it means the divine self within, which is the equivalent of what we think of as an eternal soul, free of space and time. >> 4. The Buddha denied an eternal self. When the Buddha says, as a proof of anatta, if objects, thoughts, etc., were part of your Atman, divine self or eternal soul, then you would be able to make them do what you want, but you can't, so they are not part of such a self or soul. The Buddha uses the lack of control of phenomena as a proof that they have the characteristic of anatta, that they are not amenable to personal control, because of course a divine Godlike self would have some influence over phenomena. >> 5. If you go to a minute irreducible level of the smallest units of reality, in other words the paramatha or ultimate level of reality, then you can observe the non-controllability and changeability of dhammas, dissatisfaction brought by fleeting dhammas, and the dukkha caused by attachment/clinging to dhammas, then you can see the true activity of anatta in action, close up. >> 6. When someone see a contradiction with the truth that "dhammas, the ultimate irreducible actual building blocks of experience, are totally lacking any properties of self", it is because he only wants to talk about the paramatha level. Thus he fails to see the implications of no-self/no-soul on the everyday level can be applied on the dhamma level and vice versa. >> ........... >> >> Thanks, Robert. >> >> Tep >> === >> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: >> > >> > Hi Ken H. >> > >> > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: >> > > >> > > Hi Robert E, >> > > ... ... ... >> >> > > KH: I thought it would good idea in my "Question about Mahayana" thread to find out exactly who meant what by "anatta." I see someone has changed the thread title to "What atta is denied?" which seems suitable. Do you think we have answered the question? >> > >> > No, and I don't think "which atta is denied" as if, like the Highlander series, "there can only be one." It's ridiculous. We're talking about something that doesn't exist, and you're concerned about which nonexistent version doesn't exist. None of them exist, because they're all concepts. >> > >> > Anatta is not a thing, as I've been trying to tell you for ten years. It's the absence of any kind of self. There is no self associated with dhammas, including their own precious little "own-being" self, and there is no self anywhere else either. >> > >> > You want to know "which room does a unicorn not exist in? Is it the livingroom or the kitchen that the unicorn is not in, or is it the backyard?" The answer is that the unicorn doesn't exist in any room, because there are no unicorns anywhere, except in your mind. >> > >> > Best, >> > Rob E. >> > >> > = = = = = = = = = = = >> > >> >> Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (150) . Top ^ >> 9 The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 5. >> Sun Apr 7, 2013 4:51 am (PDT) . Posted by: "Nina van Gorkom" nilovg Dear friends, >> >> This was a good lesson reminding us not to attach too much importance >> to the stories which are objects of our thinking. Thinking arises, it >> is conditioned and we cannot prevent it, but we can remember that >> what really matters is learning the truth of the reality appearing >> right now. >> IvanÂ’s body was laid in state in the temple with one hand stretched >> out so that we could sprinkle water over it and remember his good >> deeds. Ivan had always encouraged me to keep on writing about the >> Dhamma. I was disinclined to use a computer but he had persuaded me >> to start writing on the computer, so that I could share what I wrote >> with many people. >> Acharn remarked: “So, I smile to Ivan, and may he appreciate all my >> good deeds. The Buddha did not teach anyone to cry, because that is >> akusala. At the moment of kusala there is no aversion (dosa), no >> crying, but appreciation.” >> When I said that there are conditions for aversion and sadness, she >> said: >> >> “When there is understanding one can see that paññå is the best of >> all conditioned realities, that it is a precious thing in oneÂ’s life. >> Everything is past in oneÂ’s life, all the time. It passes away never >> to come back.” >> I remarked that intellectual understanding does not really help. It >> helps for a while and then it is gone and sadness arises again. >> Acharn answered: “The accumulation of right understanding can become >> stronger, better than other accumulations. Without intellectual >> understanding how could there be stronger understanding? We have to >> go step by step, like climbing a mountain. We cannot reach the top >> immediately. Each step leads to more right understanding.” >> >> We have accumulated such an amount of attachment, ignorance and wrong >> view. Acharn explained that it has to be eradicated little by little, >> very, very little at a time, but that this is better than none at >> all. We have to be coura- geous and patient to develop understanding >> of one reality at a time. >> Elle, IvanÂ’s wife, asked Acharn how to cope with sadness and >> loneliness. She found it so very difficult to be alone in the house. >> Acharn explained that one is not alone when one studies the word of >> the Buddha; one is in his presence, he is addressing his words to us. >> This is true, but we have to listen again and again until there is >> more understanding of whatever appears at the present moment. >> >> ------- >> Nina. >> >> >> >> Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (1) . Top ^ >> Visit Your Group > >> View All Topics > >> Create New Topic > >> 2 New Members > >> We are making changes based on your feedback, Thank you ! Submit Feedback > >> The Yahoo! Groups Product Blog Check it out! > >> CHANGE SETTINGS > TERMS OF USE > UNSUBSCRIBE > #129836 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Apr 8, 2013 1:55 pm Subject: note from Shakti sarahprocter... Dear Shakti, I'm so glad to see you posting again after a long time. I agree with you that Nina's series is very useful for everyone. Please also listen to the recordings themselves where all these points are raised: www.dhammastudygroup.org, Thailand Jan 2013. We're uploading them as we do a first edit. The very first session is held in Bangkok at the temple where Ivan's body was laid out and Ajahn Sujin was talking about grief and death. Please also add any more of your own comments and reflections. I do hope you and Tom are slowly recovering and finding support in the Teachings - especially the reminders about the present moment. I think I mentioned to you about a trip to Kaeng Krachan in early June. It would be wonderful and so very beneficial if both of you were able to join. Metta Sarah p.s Remember to TRIM when you post (and also add a subject heading), otherwise the entire digest gets posted!! (For those who have difficulty trimming, not to worry - we'll put the posts under moderation and do it for you!) > > From: Deanna > > Dearest Nina, > > Thank you so much for sharing > > your words of understanding > > on living and dying. My > > condolences on the death > > of your beloved. Recently > > Bodhi our beloved son died > > suddenly. We were shocked > > at the sudden realization > > of losing him. Your words > > are such a tremendous support. > > Thank you - I look forward > > to hearing more. #129837 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Apr 8, 2013 2:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Akusala dhamma conditions kusala by way of Upanissaya Paccayo t.sastri Hi Tam, - I agree with what you just wrote: "Upanissaya paccaya is such a wide and subtle subject, I just got the feeling that our understanding of it is so, so little". You should read Decisive Support-Condition (Upanissaya-Paccaya), Chapter 7 and Chapter 8 of the book: The Conditionality of Life in the Buddhist Teachings An outline of the Twenty four Conditions as taught in the Abhidhamma By Nina van Gorkom. http://www.abhidhamma.org/Patthana%203%20chapter_7.htm In addition I found some old messages at the JourneyToNibbana group. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JourneyToNibbana/message/9447 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JourneyToNibbana/message/7571 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JourneyToNibbana/message/4464 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JourneyToNibbana/message/4396 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JourneyToNibbana/message/2070 Be happy, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Tam Bach wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > Thank you for your reply, > > > Sarah: Understanding now is the main condition (by pakatu upanissaya paccaya) for more understanding in future and lobha now is the main condition (in the same way) for more lobha in future. The fact that, in truth, any akusala state can condition understanding and any kusala state can condition attachment doesn't alter the fact that what arises now leads to more of the same. > > If this were not so, the Buddha wouldn't have bothered to share the Dhamma and there'd be no point in listening and carefully considering what's been heard. > ---------------------------- > > Tam B: Yes, indeed. This is the reason I was looking for something in the texts (commentaries and sub commentaries) which really points out the difference between them. Upanissaya paccaya is such a wide and subtle subject, I just got the feeling that our understanding of it is so, so little....I would always appreciate if you or anyone bring in more light about it! > Metta, > Tam B > > > ======= #129838 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Apr 8, 2013 2:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Akusala dhamma conditions kusala by way of Upanissaya Paccayo sarahprocter... Dear Tam, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Tam Bach wrote: > Tam B: .... I just got the feeling that our understanding of it is so, so little....I would always appreciate if you or anyone bring in more light about it! .... S: Our understanding is so little, not because we haven't studied enough of the texts, but because there isn't enough understanding now when lobha, dosa, panna and other cittas and cetasikas arise and accumulate. As Ajahn always says, the Dhamma is not in the book, it's now at this moment. If there is understanding of lobha now, such as when we want to work out the answer, it's clear how lobha accumulates and leads to more lobha: MN18, The Honeyball Sutta, puts it well: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel405.html "Dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition there is feeling. What one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one thinks about. What one thinks about, that one mentally proliferates. With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, perceptions and notions tinged by mental proliferation beset a person with respect to past, future, and present forms cognizable through the eye." The same applies to understanding and other states. The fact that there can (rarely) be understanding of lobha doesn't affect the fact that usually lobha just accumulates on and on and on. The Buddha taught us to develop understanding of what appears now as the only way to understand the Truths. The "hows' and 'whys' will never provide the answers:-)) Metta Sarah ===== #129839 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 8, 2013 3:21 pm Subject: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, Acharn said: “As to thinking about living alone, as soon as it is known it is gone, as fast as that. Thinking follows and it seems permanent, but as soon as it is known it is gone.” During this journey I began to see that dwelling in the past, in stories about Lodewijk’s sickbed, his last days, his suffering, is quite different from studying and considering what is real in the ultimate sense and appearing at this very moment, like seeing and visible object. We discussed about paramattha dhammas (ultimate realities) for hours, day after day. There is a great contrast between the world of concepts and imaginations and the world of realities. This helped me not to be completely absorbed in what is not real. Ivan’s body was laid down in a case and then the monks chanted texts. Acharn spoke about Ivan’s life, and this is also the life of all of us: “He was born and he died. What did he get from his whole life? Everything arises and passes away in splitseconds, all the time, from day to day, from moment to moment. Nothing belonged to him because there is no him. The rúpa-elements and the nåma-elements arise and fall away by conditions and never come back. Everyone’s life is like this because there is no self. That is why we listen to the truth of whatever appears now, to understand it as truth. To understand seeing as seeing; no one sees and it does not belong to anyone because it is gone completely, never to come back. How can it be my seeing? It is only a moment of experiencing an object. Who can prevent seeing from arising? There are conditions for its arising, and, thus, it arises.” Life is only the experiencing of an object through one of the six doorways of the senses and the mind. Only one citta arises at a time, experiences an object and then falls away. At the moment of seeing just what is visible, there cannot be the experience of sound, these are different cittas, experiencing different objects. The citta which thinks, thinks of persons or situations. In the ultimate sense a person is mere elements that arise and fall away. We can learn that one is born alone, sees alone, thinks alone and dies alone. After passing away from this life there is no return of the same individual. ---------- Nina. ------------ #129840 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 8, 2013 3:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] on living and dying. nilovg Dear Deanna, Yes, I had heard about the loss of your son and remembered to share merit. My heartfelt condolences. I am glad you find my series helpful. Acharn's words meant a lot to me during this trip. Of course, difficult moments occur, but they do not last. Nina. Op 8-apr-2013, om 5:20 heeft Deanna het volgende geschreven: > > Dearest Nina, > > Thank you so much for sharing > > your words of understanding > > on living and dying. #129841 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 8, 2013 3:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 8-apr-2013, om 4:17 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > I guess I am sort of fixated on the details of kamma patha. In > other words, as you describe, the kusala cittas motivate speech > through speech intimation, etc. and then those rupas of speech are > taken up by the cittas of another who can then consider them or > reject them. ------ N: The ruupa of intimation of speech falls away immediately, it cannot be taken up by someone else. Speech intimation is the means through which speech can be uttered and a meaning can be conveyed so that someone else can know what is conveyed. The other person hears sound and then knows the meaning in a mind-door process. For example, Acharn says, visible object is just a dhamma, no person in it. Here are many words spoken by her. Someone else hears sound and then in different mind-door processes knows the meaning. When I say: someone else, this is to denote the five khandhas of the other person. Then there is considering of the truth in different mind-door processes. ------ Nina. #129842 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 8, 2013 4:13 pm Subject: frwd from Ann, about Lodewijk's last moments. nilovg Dear friends, I wrote to Ann what our family doctor said. He had asked Lodewijk several times: are you afraid of death. Lodewijk and I had discussed this and we found that this is only thinking about what has not come yet. So, Lodewijk did not answer these questions and the doctor said to me: he was afraid of death. He had such an as it were electrical shock near his last moment, and the doctor said that this was psychological. Someone else said: no, just physical, and that he would not notice this himself. So similar conversations are rather disconcerting. As Ann said: we do not know. Ann wrote to me about the subject and I like to frwd this, since she put things very well: > I have been thinking about your comments (below) about the doctor's > thoughts about Lodewijk's last moments. I don't think that a > medical doctor can know the citta of a patient just before death, > just as we can't know the citta of another at any moment. I would > be inclined to disregard what he said about it. As we know citta > arise and fall away so rapidly that without highly developed panna > even the person concerned cannot know, and certainly not an > observer. One cannot know the last citta of a dying person. So > the answer is that we don't know. What we do know is that Lodewijk > developed considerable understanding during his lifetime and > performed many, many acts of kusala. He was a very kind and > generous man, an example to all, and so encouraging and supportive > of your dhamma studies and writings. As for fear of dying, it > sounds as if he understood that too, it is a momentary thing, each > moment a new one, the past moment gone forever. From things you > have said about Lodewijk's questions about the Dhamma and from what > I have heard him discuss with Achan Sujin and others, he was very > truthful about things he understood about the teachings of the > Buddha and things that he questioned. It seems he thought very > deeply about it and fully recognized the good fortune of hearing > the Dhamma in this life. Nina, I hope you do not mind that I have > raised this subject again. > > This is all thinking, though. As you say, the sadness is real and > a conditioned dhamma. What is real now is past and gone almost > instantaneously. Yes, we cling to it, with stories and more > stories. And we take the stories for something lasting and true. > Fortunately even a little intellectual understanding of the Dhamma > can help us see that there really is nothing to cling to. Easier > said than done! > (end quote) Nina. #129843 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Apr 8, 2013 4:32 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Asubha of all conditioned realities sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > N: I agree with Tep that seeing what is asubha as subha is a > > vippallasa. The original point was: is that which arises and falls > > away beautiful? Also sobhana dhammas are arising and falling away. > > Are they worth clinging to? > >R: I guess I just find that slightly confusing. I do understand and agree with the point that all dhammas are ephemeral and don't cause happiness and not worth attaching to - but don't quite understand why some of these should then be given a "positive report" and seen as sobhana. Is there attachment in that view/labeling of these dhammas? .... S: Let's take 'metta' (loving kindness) as an example. It is sobhana or kusala (wholesome) because when it arises, it has the wholesome roots of alobha and adosa, it is free from attachment, aversion and ignorance. However, when it arises, it doesn't last for an instant and in this sense it is dukkha (unsatisfactory) and asubha (foul) - not worth clinging to for an instant. > But when in the world of darkness > Buddhas arise to make things bright, > They present this profound teaching > Which brings suffering to an end. > > When those with wisdom have heard this, > They recuperate their right mind: > > They see change in what is changing, > Suffering where there's suffering, > "Non-self" in what is without self, > They see the un-lovely as such. > > By this acceptance of right view, > They overcome all suffering. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.049.olen.html ===== Metta Sarah ===== #129844 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Apr 8, 2013 4:36 pm Subject: Re: Asubha of all conditioned realities sarahprocter... Dear Tep (& Alex), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > >N: It is good to see the uselesness of clinging, and especially clinging to self. > >Alex: since we cannot normally get rid of all clinging at once, we need to start somewhere first, and then gradually reduce all clinging. ... >T: Alex got a valid idea, I believe. .... S: The idea is bound up with the idea of self taking action. Metta Sarah ===== #129845 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Apr 8, 2013 4:44 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Asubha of all conditioned realities sarahprocter... Hi Tep (& Rob E), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: >...According to the Compendium of Consciousness (I, 12) this type of sobhana cittas is called the "beautiful", because it is accompanied by beautiful mental factors (e.g. faith, mindfulness, tranquillity, non-delusion). Not all of the beautifuls are without attachment. .... S: No sobhana cittas (or cetasikas) can arise with attachment. .... >Some sobhana cittas do not arise in the Arahants; although they are wholesome, they are not yet free from attachment. .... S: I think you are referring to the anusaya, latent tendencies, only? For example, the virati cetasikas (abstentions) do not arise in the arahat because there are no unwholesome states to abstain from. I can't think of any other examples, can you? Metta Sarah ===== #129846 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Apr 8, 2013 4:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: books. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > S: Excellent! I think that "The Buddha's Path" is the best > > introduction to the Teachings, too. > > (Nina, I do hope we get this book re-printed soon - I meet so many > > people I'd like to give copies of it too.) > ------ > N: I think that Alan is mainly interested in having things on line. > Is this not the trend nowadays, less and less books? The printing is > not such a problem, but getting it to the people. ... S: It is the trend, but I think it's also useful (esp. in Bangkok) to have a good introductory text to give people who visit or who are travelling, like Annie and many others. I think this is the best one. No need to send out any packs as Lodewijk used to do (and Jonothan for years in Thailand). They can just keep a supply in Bkk and when any of us visit, we can pick up copies and supplies to hand out (or mail) as we wish. I also prefer just handing them out. Let us know if there are any plans for a re-print of this book as we'd like to make a contribution. I'll also recommend it to Ajahn when we visit. Metta Sarah ====== #129847 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Apr 8, 2013 4:55 pm Subject: Re: When you are thinking about a deep topic.... sarahprocter... Dear All, Phil raised good points (and thanks for posting prior to the Baseball Break, Phil!) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > I heard this today. "When you are thinking about a deep topic there is not understanding of seeing" and the other realities that are appearing now. Someone pointed out that there can be right understanding of the thinking involved. But it is good to be reminded that when we are fascinated with deep topics we are oblivious to many realities that are appearing for the development of understanding *now*... ... S: Right! ... > > I guess this is why Ajahn Sujin often says things like "is there seeing now?" and "visible object now" and so on.... ... S: Because they are arising and appearing right now, usually with no understanding or awareness of them! Metta Sarah ====== #129848 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Apr 8, 2013 4:59 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Question on Parami sarahprocter... Hi Tadao, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "tadaomiyamoto@..." > A couple of weeks ago, I asked Kun Sujin about parami and I got very much the same answer as what Kun Nina explained below. One thing which I learned new was that > unlike in Mahayana, in Theravada the significance is placed on "non-self". So it is not I who have been accumulating the ten paramis. ... S: If there is no understanding of realities as anatta, there is no development of the paramis (perfections) at all. ... > > Also Kun Sujin said that when the Buddha had been accumulating paramis in his countless previous lives, he had done so with understanding of non-self. In other words, it is not at his final moment of enlightenment when he penetrated the characteristic of non-self, but the notion of non-self had always been with his endevour. ... S: As I understand, there was the development of understanding, the development of satipatthana from having listened to previous Buddhas, but not the arising of the vipassana nanas until immediately before his final enlightenment, otherwise he wouldn't be a Samma Sambuddha. ... Metta Sarah ====== #129849 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Apr 8, 2013 5:31 pm Subject: Re: What is fear? sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > >L: What is fear? > > .... > > > > S: Dosa cetasika > ----------------------------- > HCW: > Ahhh! I didn't know what fear was before, but now it is cleared up! ;-)) .... S: Ok, now "it is cleared up", please elaborate and explain more about fear to Lukas :-)) Metta Sarah ===== #129850 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Apr 8, 2013 6:45 pm Subject: Re: Asubha of all conditioned realities t.sastri Dear Sarah and Alex, - > Sarah wrote: > Dear Tep (& Alex), > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > > >N: It is good to see the uselesness of clinging, and especially clinging to self. > > >Alex: since we cannot normally get rid of all clinging at once, we need to start somewhere first, and then gradually reduce all clinging. > ... > >T: Alex got a valid idea, I believe. > .... > S: The idea is bound up with the idea of self taking action. > ............... T: Dear Sarah, I don't think it is a self-view since the Great Monk Ananda said so (i.e. use craving to abandon craving) in Bhikkhuni Sutta AN 4.159. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JourneyToNibbana/message/10881 Truly, Tep === #129851 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Apr 8, 2013 7:10 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Asubha of all conditioned realities t.sastri Hi Sarah, Rob E.- >T: Some sobhana cittas do not arise in the Arahants; although they are wholesome, they are not yet free from attachment. .... S: I think you are referring to the anusaya, latent tendencies, only? For example, the virati cetasikas (abstentions) do not arise in the arahat because there are no unwholesome states to abstain from. I can't think of any other examples, can you? T: I was referring to the eight wholesome sense-sphere cittas that arise in worldlings and trainees. That's all I can find from the Compendium of Consciousness, Sarah. Be happy, Tep === #129852 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Apr 8, 2013 7:55 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Asubha of all conditioned realities sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Sarah, Rob E.- > > >T: Some sobhana cittas do not arise in the Arahants; although they are wholesome, they are not yet free from attachment. ... > T: I was referring to the eight wholesome sense-sphere cittas that arise in worldlings and trainees. That's all I can find from the Compendium of Consciousness, Sarah. ... S: Good point - no kusala (or akusala) cittas of any kind - only kiriya (inoperative) cittas. No more kamma Metta Sarah ==== #129853 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Apr 8, 2013 8:39 pm Subject: Re: What is fear? szmicio Dear friends, I am refreshed. Today I was in a bus to Olsztyn. Travel by bus is my upanissaya gocara for wise thinking since before I used to spend many moments in the bus travelling to my University for 4 years and really that time developeig satipatthana for seeing and hearing. This trip was very refreshing since when I got into bus i realised that this is usual moment of understanding, what is now, seeing, hearing and thinking many thinkings. That was very refreshing trip. I meet two expert witness in Olsztyn. This forensics were hard to talk to. But I was kind and stayed with sharp mind. Now thay took off police from me. This is a big relief. Best wishes Lukas > S: Ok, now "it is cleared up", please elaborate and explain more about fear to Lukas :-)) #129854 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 8, 2013 9:56 pm Subject: Re: What is fear? upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Lukas) - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > > > >L: What is fear? > > > .... > > > > > > S: Dosa cetasika > > ----------------------------- > > HCW: > > Ahhh! I didn't know what fear was before, but now it is cleared up! ;-)) > .... > S: Ok, now "it is cleared up", please elaborate and explain more about fear to Lukas :-)) ------------------------------------ HCW: The fear that is explained is not the experienced fear. (Apologies to Lao Tze!) Nonetheless, we *can* talk about it: What we call "fear" probably includes some things that are not actually fear - for example mere "awareness of danger" and "a sense of caution". But what I think is fear per se is a form of aversion, the hindrance of "anxiety" to be precise, most unpleasant, which is based in atta-sense in oneself and others and is conditioned by clinging. Like emotions in general, it is accompanied by a variety of physical phenomena - for example goose bumps, sweating, shaking, but also a physical energizing. ---------------------------------- > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > ================================= With metta, Howard /Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains — going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it — and a man would open channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & ANXIETY, and sceptical doubt, when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible/ (From the Avarana Sutta) #129855 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Apr 8, 2013 10:32 pm Subject: Yathabhuta.m Pajanati t.sastri Dear Nina, - Thanks for sharing your and Ann's wise thoughts on citta and knowing of death. >Ann: What is real now is past and gone almost instantaneously. Yes, we cling to it, with stories and more stories. And we take the stories for something lasting and true. >Fortunately even a little intellectual understanding of the Dhamma can help us see that there really is nothing to cling to. Easier said than done! T: If even a little intellectual understanding can help this much, then it should be easy to see how tremendously beneficial 'yathabhuta.m pajanati' can be. Sincerely, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > > I wrote to Ann what our family doctor said. He had asked Lodewijk > several times: are you afraid of death. Lodewijk and I had discussed > this and we found that this is only thinking about what has not come > yet. So, Lodewijk did not answer these questions and the doctor said > to me: he was afraid of death. He had such an as it were electrical > shock near his last moment, and the doctor said that this was > psychological. Someone else said: no, just physical, and that he > would not notice this himself. So similar conversations are rather > disconcerting. As Ann said: we do not know. > Ann wrote to me about the subject and I like to frwd this, since she > put things very well: > > > I have been thinking about your comments (below) about the doctor's > > thoughts about Lodewijk's last moments. I don't think that a > > medical doctor can know the citta of a patient just before death, > > just as we can't know the citta of another at any moment. I would > > be inclined to disregard what he said about it. As we know citta > > arise and fall away so rapidly that without highly developed panna > > even the person concerned cannot know, and certainly not an > > observer. One cannot know the last citta of a dying person. So > > the answer is that we don't know. What we do know is that Lodewijk > > developed considerable understanding during his lifetime and > > performed many, many acts of kusala. He was a very kind and > > generous man, an example to all, and so encouraging and supportive > > of your dhamma studies and writings. As for fear of dying, it > > sounds as if he understood that too, it is a momentary thing, each > > moment a new one, the past moment gone forever. From things you > > have said about Lodewijk's questions about the Dhamma and from what > > I have heard him discuss with Achan Sujin and others, he was very > > truthful about things he understood about the teachings of the > > Buddha and things that he questioned. It seems he thought very > > deeply about it and fully recognized the good fortune of hearing > > the Dhamma in this life. Nina, I hope you do not mind that I have > > raised this subject again. > > > > This is all thinking, though. As you say, the sadness is real and > > a conditioned dhamma. What is real now is past and gone almost > > instantaneously. Yes, we cling to it, with stories and more > > stories. And we take the stories for something lasting and true. > > Fortunately even a little intellectual understanding of the Dhamma > > can help us see that there really is nothing to cling to. Easier > > said than done! > > (end quote) > > Nina. > #129856 From: sprlrt@... Date: Mon Apr 8, 2013 10:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Akusala dhamma conditions kusala by way of Upanissaya Paccayo sprlrt Dear Tam (Sarah, Lukas, ...), Realities arise by conditions only, not by other reasons like the self or chance. So seeing arises conditioned by visible object, by the eye-base, by kamma (cetana cetasika previously arisen as kusala or akusala) and other paccayas as well. We can also say that cakkhu-vi~n~nana vipaka citta (and cetasikas) is conditioned by arammana-paccaya, by vatthu-purejata-paccaya, by kamma paccaya and others. Just different words referring to the same realities. So when talking about paccaya dhamma (conditioning dhamma) also its paccayuppanna dhamma (conditioned dhamma) are implied; there cannot be a paccaya without its paccayuppanna and viceversa; as there cannot be a reality which is not condition (paccaya) for other realities, at the same time being conditioned (paccayuppanna) by other realities. One reality which is not conditioned (paccayuppanna) by other realities is nibbana, the unconditioned element, but it still is arammana paccaya for citta and cetasikas of the lokuttara plane. Concepts, pa~n~nati, aren't realities, paramattha dhammas, so they can't be conditioned (paccayuppanna) by other realities either, but still they are arammana paccaya for citta and cetasikas arising at the mind door of the other three planes (kaama-ruupa-aruupaavacara). The relations between paccaya dhamma and their paccayuppanna dhamma can be very deep and complex; like with pakatupanissaya paccaya dhammas which include a great deal of dhammas and also many paccayuppanna dhammas. As Ajahn says, it is the widest of the paccayas, it covers many other paccayas as well. In the previous example, for instance, kamma (cetana cetasika) conditions vipaka, like seeing, by pakatupanissaya paccaya as well as by kamma paccaya (Patthana, Kusalattika, Pa~nhavaro). Alberto #129857 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Apr 8, 2013 11:04 pm Subject: Re: What is fear? sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > HCW: >..... But what I think is fear per se is a form of aversion, ... S: Exactly and this was the point as Lukas would have appreciated. It is so often taken for being 'my' fear, but really is just a conditioned dhamma that doesn't last an instant. I knew he would reflect further in this way. ... >the hindrance of "anxiety" to be precise, ... S: In the context of the hindrances, anxiety or agitation are translations of uddhacca. Uddhacca is the restlessness which accompanies all akusala cittas, even those which arise with attachment and pleasant feeling. When there is restlessness, there is no calm. ... > most unpleasant, which is based in atta-sense in oneself and others and is conditioned by clinging. ... S: The reason it seems so unpleasant is because aversion is always accompanied by unpleasant feeling (domanassa). This is the reason we don't like the fear or other kinds of aversion. Usually, no one complains about attachment which is never accompanied by unpleasant feeling, but always about fear, worry, anxiety and so on. .... >Like emotions in general, it is accompanied by a variety of physical phenomena - for example goose bumps, sweating, shaking, but also a physical energizing. ... S: True that the the citta with aversion or fear can condition such rupas which manifest as you indicate. Thanks, Howard, also to Kanchana and Azita.... Also plenty more detail in Useful Posts under "Fear". Metta Sarah ===== #129858 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 8, 2013 11:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q.The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 4. nilovg Dear Tep, Op 6-apr-2013, om 16:13 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > T: I think you are saying that right understanding/enlightenment > has to arise before defilements are eradicated. But the Buddha > teaches in the Sallekha Sutta and Dvedhavitakka Sutta, for example, > that kilesas/akusala dhammas must be effaced and abandoned (at > least temporarily) before kusala dhammas (including knowing a > reality that arises now) can arise. Please correct me if I am > mistaken. ------ N: Through the development of right understanding we shall be less inclined to take akusala for self. First the wrong view of self is to be eradicated before other defilements can be eradicated. This is at the stage of the sotaapanna as you know. Then pa~n~naa develops further and it is through pa~n~naa that akusala wears out and is completely eradicated stage by stage as the different stages of enlightenment are attained. There cannot be any abandoning of akusala without the development of pa~n~naa. ----- Nina. #129859 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Apr 8, 2013 11:15 pm Subject: Re: What is fear? sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > I am refreshed. .... S: Refreshed with kusala citta or with attachment? Either way it's momentary and anatta. .... >Today I was in a bus to Olsztyn. Travel by bus is my upanissaya gocara for wise thinking since before I used to spend many moments in the bus travelling to my University for 4 years and really that time developeig satipatthana for seeing and hearing. This trip was very refreshing since when I got into bus i realised that this is usual moment of understanding, what is now, seeing, hearing and thinking many thinkings. ... S: It's the seeing, hearing, visible object, thinking and other realities that are the upanissaya gocara, not the 'travel by bus'. However, we can say in a conventional sense, that the bus ride was the suitable (sappaya) place. .... >That was very refreshing trip. I meet two expert witness in Olsztyn. This forensics were hard to talk to. But I was kind and stayed with sharp mind. Now thay took off police from me. This is a big relief. ... S: I'm glad to hear this too. We all appeciate kind associations. The "big relief" - momentary attachment and pleasant feeling (for me too). Who knows whether fear or attachment will arise next on account of what is seen or heard? It just depends on conditions - all so anatta. Understanding more about such dhammas now is upanissaya gocara - right intellectual understanding of the object, leading to direct understanding of the present realities now. Thanks for sharing your good news, Lukas. Stay well and sober with understanding! Metta Sarah ===== #129860 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 8, 2013 11:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Yathabhuta.m Pajanati nilovg Dear Tep, Op 8-apr-2013, om 14:32 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > T: If even a little intellectual understanding can help this much, > then it should be easy to see how tremendously beneficial > 'yathabhuta.m pajanati' can be. ------ N: For those who do not know Pali: he knows things as they really are. So long as we are deluded things seem to stay on, or we take them for self or mine. Right understanding of what appears now has to be developed on and on until things are known as they really are. ---- Nina. #129861 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 9, 2013 1:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Yathabhuta.m Pajanati t.sastri Dear Nina, - Allow me to reply to the two messages of yours, #129858 & #129860, right here. ------ I wrote > T: I think you are saying that right understanding/enlightenment has to arise before defilements are eradicated. But the Buddha teaches in the Sallekha Sutta and Dvedhavitakka Sutta, for example, that kilesas/akusala dhammas must be effaced and abandoned (at least temporarily) before kusala dhammas (including knowing a reality that arises now) can arise. Please correct me if I am mistaken. N (message #129858:): Through the development of right understanding we shall be less inclined to take akusala for self. First the wrong view of self is to be eradicated before other defilements can be eradicated. This is at the stage of the sotaapanna as you know. Then pa~n~naa develops further and it is through pa~n~naa that akusala wears out and is completely eradicated stage by stage as the different stages of enlightenment are attained. There cannot be any abandoning of akusala without the development of pa~n~naa. ----- Also, > T: If even a little intellectual understanding can help this much, then it should be easy to see how tremendously beneficial 'yathabhuta.m pajanati' can be. N (message #129860:) For those who do not know Pali: he knows things as they really are. So long as we are deluded things seem to stay on, or we take them for self or mine. Right understanding of what appears now has to be developed on and on until things are known as they really are. ============= T: I think there are two main ideas I see in your two messages: 1. The right view of the Sotapanna has to be attained through eradicating self-view (attaditthi, the twenty self-identifications) before "other defilements can be eradicated". 2. What you call pa~n~naa is supramundane understanding/wisdom on the path following Sotapatti-magga all the way towards true knowledge (Vijja) and release (Vimutti) in the Arahant. Further abandoning of akusala, like the remaining seven fetters, is through the development of this pa~n~naa. In principle, I agree. However, two things are not clear to me in practice: 1. Is it possible for the right view of the Sotapanna to arise through intellectual understanding of non-self (as you have taught) without a mindful effort (atapi sampajano satima) to dispel covetousness and distress (abhijjha and domanassa) and other hindrances? [Dvedhavitakka Sutta:] The Blessed One said, "Monks, before my self-awakening, when I was still just an unawakened Bodhisatta, the thought occurred to me: 'Why don't I keep dividing my thinking into two sorts?' So I made thinking imbued with sensuality, thinking imbued with ill will, & thinking imbued with harmfulness one sort, and thinking imbued with renunciation, thinking imbued with non-ill will, & thinking imbued with harmlessness another sort. "And as I remained thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, thinking imbued with sensuality arose. I discerned that 'Thinking imbued with sensuality has arisen in me; and that leads to my own affliction or to the affliction of others or to the affliction of both. It obstructs discernment, promotes vexation, & does not lead to Unbinding.' "As I noticed that it leads to my own affliction, it subsided. As I noticed that it leads to the affliction of others... to the affliction of both... it obstructs discernment, promotes vexation, & does not lead to Unbinding, it subsided. Whenever thinking imbued with sensuality had arisen, I simply abandoned it, destroyed it, dispelled it, wiped it out of existence." ............ 2. Whether you think 'yathabhuta.m pajanati' is the same as "right understanding of what appears now" in the Sotapanna, or whether it is the same as the true knowledge (Vijja). Truly, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > Op 8-apr-2013, om 14:32 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > > > T: If even a little intellectual understanding can help this much, > > then it should be easy to see how tremendously beneficial > > 'yathabhuta.m pajanati' can be. > ------ > N: For those who do not know Pali: he knows things as they really are. > So long as we are deluded things seem to stay on, or we take them for > self or mine. Right understanding of what appears now has to be > developed on and on until things are known as they really are. > ---- > Nina. > > > > > #129862 From: "Ai Dinh Le" Date: Tue Apr 9, 2013 6:36 am Subject: Re: Feelings and Dreams buddhism_2010 Hi Sarah and all, I just posted my first official video on the internet, and it is found at my Youtube channel: http://youtube.com/aidinhle There is no Buddhist talk or teachings in the video. It just shows my home -- a Vancouver (BC, Canada) chinatown hotel room. There are buddhism color photocopy images taped on my walls you can see, though. The central Buddha image is that brownish color. It is the famous Samadhi Statue, I guess. In the photo it has no nose, or a broken nose. The Samadhi Statue later was given a new nose, I read somewhere on the internet in the past. That Samadhi Statue image is from http://www.imagesofceylon.com/ I think, because doing a Google search of an email address (got from my email account), I got that URL (I talked with a website owner in the past when I asked them if I could photocopy that Buddha image as an altar image, and not have to put credit information with it, or it would look funny as the altar image. The website owner said something like I could, if it was for non-commercial, personal use.) I've had that Samadhi Statue image on my wall for, oh, I guess, one year or so. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Ai, > > Thank you very much for your informative intro. I do hope you'll 'hang around' and study and consider more about the (Theravada) Teachings with us all. <....> > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ai Dinh Le" wrote: > > > > I live in Vancouver, BC, Canada. I was born in Vung Tau, Vietnam, in 1970, in a family with the last name Le;<...> #129863 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Apr 9, 2013 9:55 am Subject: Re: What atta is denied? kenhowardau Hi Robert E. ---- >> KH: Conditionality means there is no control. >> > RE: I agree. ---- KH: Then why are we having so many arguments? ---------------- >> KH: It means the Buddha's teaching was a description of the way things are; it was not an instruction (to take control of things). >> > RE: I take the Buddha at his word. When he describes a situation I accept it as a description. When he speaks in clear imperative terms, I take it as an instruction. I think that is a sane way to understand what someone has said. --------------- KH: What happened to our agreement? As soon as your "sane" (ordinary) way of understanding was challenged you renounced your belief in no control. ---------------------- >> KH: > But, probably, we are never going to agree on that. And who cares if we don't? it's just the way things are. :-) > RE: We can agree on that. ----------------------- KH: That would be good. Even in conventional reality we know it is good to accept people and things the way they are. Thanks to the Dhamma, we know ultimately *why* it is good. We know there are ultimately only dhammas rising and falling away by conditions. There are no people, no places, and no things to do. There is no sane reason for wanting things to be one way and not another. ---------------------------------- <. . .> > RE: I repeat my challenge from the last ten or more years which has never been answered - give me a quote from scriptural authority - the ancients that is - that asserts what you just said. As far as I know, such a quote does not exist! The source of your understanding that there is no instruction in the Buddha's teaching does not come from the scriptures. ----------------------------------- KH: There are no conventional teachings of any kind in the Dhamma. They don't need to be ruled out one at a time. When we understand that there are only dhammas we also understand that there cannot be any doing, or any actions, or anything, in the conventional sense. Ken H #129864 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Apr 9, 2013 1:49 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Op 8-apr-2013, om 4:17 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > I guess I am sort of fixated on the details of kamma patha. In > > other words, as you describe, the kusala cittas motivate speech > > through speech intimation, etc. and then those rupas of speech are > > taken up by the cittas of another who can then consider them or > > reject them. > ------ > N: The ruupa of intimation of speech falls away immediately, it > cannot be taken up by someone else. Speech intimation is the means > through which speech can be uttered and a meaning can be conveyed so > that someone else can know what is conveyed. The other person hears > sound and then knows the meaning in a mind-door process. > For example, Acharn says, visible object is just a dhamma, no person > in it. Here are many words spoken by her. Someone else hears sound > and then in different mind-door processes knows the meaning. When I > say: someone else, this is to denote the five khandhas of the other > person. Then there is considering of the truth in different mind-door > processes. Thanks for the description. That is helpful. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = #129865 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Apr 9, 2013 1:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Asubha of all conditioned realities epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Rob E, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > N: I agree with Tep that seeing what is asubha as subha is a > > > vippallasa. The original point was: is that which arises and falls > > > away beautiful? Also sobhana dhammas are arising and falling away. > > > Are they worth clinging to? > > > >R: I guess I just find that slightly confusing. I do understand and agree with the point that all dhammas are ephemeral and don't cause happiness and not worth attaching to - but don't quite understand why some of these should then be given a "positive report" and seen as sobhana. Is there attachment in that view/labeling of these dhammas? > .... > S: Let's take 'metta' (loving kindness) as an example. It is sobhana or kusala (wholesome) because when it arises, it has the wholesome roots of alobha and adosa, it is free from attachment, aversion and ignorance. > > However, when it arises, it doesn't last for an instant and in this sense it is dukkha (unsatisfactory) and asubha (foul) - not worth clinging to for an instant. Thanks, that makes it more clear for me, to see the technical reasons for both sobhana and asubha elements in the sobhana dhamma. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - #129866 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Apr 9, 2013 1:57 pm Subject: Re: What atta is denied? epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Robert E. > > ---- > >> KH: Conditionality means there is no control. > >> > > > RE: I agree. > ---- > > KH: Then why are we having so many arguments? > > ---------------- > >> KH: It means the Buddha's teaching was a description of the way things are; it was not an instruction (to take control of things). > >> > > > RE: I take the Buddha at his word. When he describes a situation I accept it as a description. When he speaks in clear imperative terms, I take it as an instruction. I think that is a sane way to understand what someone has said. > --------------- > > KH: What happened to our agreement? As soon as your "sane" (ordinary) way of understanding was challenged you renounced your belief in no control. Of course I don't agree with this, because I don't share your "automatic" view that no-control entails disavowing the effects of all conventional activities. You think that is obvious, but it is not shown, proven or stated in the scriptures. You just keep acting like it's true, without any evidence. > ---------------------- > >> KH: > But, probably, we are never going to agree on that. And who cares if we don't? it's just the way things are. :-) > > > RE: We can agree on that. > ----------------------- > > KH: That would be good. Even in conventional reality we know it is good to accept people and things the way they are. > > Thanks to the Dhamma, we know ultimately *why* it is good. We know there are ultimately only dhammas rising and falling away by conditions. There are no people, no places, and no things to do. There is no sane reason for wanting things to be one way and not another. Why be on the path? > ---------------------------------- > <. . .> > > RE: I repeat my challenge from the last ten or more years which > has never been answered - give me a quote from scriptural authority - the ancients that is - that asserts what you just said. As far as I know, such a quote does not exist! The source of your understanding that there is no instruction in the Buddha's teaching does not come from the scriptures. > ----------------------------------- > > KH: There are no conventional teachings of any kind in the Dhamma. They don't need to be ruled out one at a time. When we understand that there are only dhammas we also understand that there cannot be any doing, or any actions, or anything, in the conventional sense. You "understand" that there are only dhammas. I agree that "ultimately" there are only dhammas. You think that settles the question of what we are doing in everyday activities, but it does not. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #129867 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 9, 2013 3:18 pm Subject: [dsg] The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 2. Living alone. Acharn Sujin repeated many times that what is now today, will be yesterday tomorrow. This reminds us that all we find so important now will be past in no time. Right understanding of realities that arise and fall away will lead to detachment. We find it very important to be in the company of friends, but Acharn reminded us that in a short while we shall not know each other any more. In a next life we shall have new friendships. She spoke about an example in the Tipitaka about seven friends who in their last life did not remember that they were friends before. They attained arahatship. Acharn said: “When we listen more there will be more understanding of seeing. There must be that which sees and that which is seen, only that. There is no other world, no one there. Cittas arise just one at a time, there is no hearing, no sound, no idea about the object that is seen and no thinking. If nothing arises at all there is no world. Whatever arises, even just one reality, that is the world. It is the arising and falling away of different realities. The meaning of arising and falling away is: it never comes back. No one is there, only different cittas, different cetasikas, different realities. Understanding is not developed by anyone. It is developed by listening, considering; no one can do anything because there is no self. A moment of understanding is like a drop of water in the ocean of ignorance.” Understanding is not developed by anyone because there is no person, no self who develops it. Understanding itself develops when there are the right conditions for it. There is such a great deal of ignorance, but the Dhamma is like an island in the ocean of concepts, the ocean of defilements. Seeing is one citta and when it arises there cannot be hearing at the same time. Seeing experiences visible object. Hearing is another citta that experiences sound. It may seem that we can see and hear at the same time, but this is a delusion. Each citta can experience only one object at a time, and it falls away immediately. After it has fallen away we think of what has been seen and heard, and then we live in the world of concepts. -------- Nina. #129868 From: Deanna Date: Tue Apr 9, 2013 2:20 pm Subject: Cycle of birth and death deannajohnso... Dearest Nina, We can never know how we will feel in the future. We can know if fear arises only in this moment. If one lives one's life well and knows this moment deeply this will condition more moments of understanding to arise. Metta, Shakti <....> #129870 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 9, 2013 10:33 pm Subject: Re: Cycle of birth and death t.sastri Hi Deanna, - [Please ignore the deleted message just before this.] Your nice and brief message motivated a thought in 'me'. > J: We can know if fear arises only in this moment. > If one lives one's life well and knows this moment deeply this will condition more moments > of understanding to arise. Can you kindly elaborate on " lives one's life well and knows this moment deeply" for me, please? No intention to argue/debate have I, only am curious. Thanks for now & more to come, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Deanna wrote: > > Dearest Nina, > We can never know how > we will feel in the future. > We can know if fear arises > only in this moment. If > one lives one's life well > and knows this moment deeply this will > condition more moments > of understanding to arise. > Metta, Shakti > > <....> > #129871 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 9, 2013 11:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Yathabhuta.m Pajanati nilovg Dear Tep, Op 8-apr-2013, om 17:54 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > > T: I think there are two main ideas I see in your two messages: > 1. The right view of the Sotapanna has to be attained through > eradicating self-view (attaditthi, the twenty self-identifications) > before "other defilements can be eradicated". > ------- N: It is the opposite: through right understanding the wrong view of self is eradicated. ------ > T:2. What you call pa~n~naa is supramundane understanding/wisdom on > the path following Sotapatti-magga all the way towards true > knowledge (Vijja) and release (Vimutti) in the Arahant. Further > abandoning of akusala, like the remaining seven fetters, is through > the development of this pa~n~naa. > ------ N: Yes, many levels of Pa~n~naa. ------ > > T: In principle, I agree. However, two things are not clear to me > in practice: > > 1. Is it possible for the right view of the Sotapanna to arise > through intellectual understanding of non-self (as you have taught) > without a mindful effort (atapi sampajano satima) to dispel > covetousness and distress (abhijjha and domanassa) and other > hindrances? > ------- N: Here we have to distinguish samatha and vipassanaa. Off hand when reading the Twofold thinking sutta, one may think that first hindrances have to be dispelled before pa~n~naa can further develop. This is not so in vipassanaa. Of course atapi sampajano satima are needed all the way: sati, pa~n~naa and also ardent right effort. Effort to be aware of this very moment. First there is the level of intellectual understanding of non-self, but very gradually, after listening and considering again and again there can be a beginning of direct understanidng. We do not know when! --------- > > T: "And as I remained thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, thinking > imbued with sensuality arose. I discerned that 'Thinking imbued > with sensuality has arisen in me; and that leads to my own > affliction or to the affliction of others or to the affliction of > both. It obstructs discernment, promotes vexation, & does not lead > to Unbinding.' > -------- > N: In the sutta conventional language is used: I discerned, I > noticed. But in reality it is pa~n~naa that sees the danger of > akusala. And what else but the danger of the akusala right now? How > otherwise can its characteristic be discerned. The sutta does not > speak about theory at all. > Also, at the end of the sutta the Buddha explains about the wrong Path and the right Path. Thus, about the development of right understanding. Always of this very moment. ------- > > T: 2. Whether you think 'yathabhuta.m pajanati' is the same as > "right understanding of what appears now" in the Sotapanna, or > whether it is the same as the true knowledge (Vijja). > ------- N: True knowledge is always true knowledge of this moment. It is not theory. When it is not of this moment it is all theoretical. We can use many terms for pa~n~naa, it has many levels. ------ Nina. #129872 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 9, 2013 11:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cycle of birth and death nilovg Dear Shakti, good you stress this moment. Understanding now conditions understanding again later on. Nina. Op 9-apr-2013, om 6:20 heeft Deanna het volgende geschreven: > If > one lives one's life well > and knows this moment deeply this will > condition more moments > of understanding to arise. #129873 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Yathabhuta.m Pajanati t.sastri Dear Nina, - It is good that the subject of our conversation is becoming clearer (to me). A few more questions remain, though. Let me just ask one question at a time. This way I will continue to understand your thought a little bit more each time. > T: I think there are two main ideas I see in your two messages: > 1. The right view of the Sotapanna has to be attained through > eradicating self-view (attaditthi, the twenty self-identifications) > before "other defilements can be eradicated". > ------- N: It is the opposite: through right understanding the wrong view of self is eradicated. ------ T: I am not sure that I follow you, dear Nina. Is this "right understanding" found in a non-ariyan who still has the three fetters? Or, is it the sammaditthi of the path at Stream-enrty after the three fetters are eradicated? Warm regards, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Tep, > Op 8-apr-2013, om 17:54 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > > > #129874 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cycle of birth and death .. Never Falls Back.. t.sastri Dear Nina and Deanna, - This is interesting: > Deanna: > If one lives one's life well > and knows this moment deeply this will > condition more moments > of understanding to arise. Nina: Dear Shakti, good you stress this moment. Understanding now conditions understanding again later on. ...................... So the development of understanding in a non-Ariyan is 100% deterministic; that it always increases, never decreases or ceases. Such development of understanding is, therefore, permanent --despite the fact that is a conditioned dhamma. Be well, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Shakti, > good you stress this moment. Understanding now conditions > understanding again later on. > Nina. > Op 9-apr-2013, om 6:20 heeft Deanna het volgende geschreven: > > > If > > one lives one's life well > > and knows this moment deeply this will > > condition more moments > > of understanding to arise. > > > > > #129875 From: Lukas Date: Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cycle of birth and death szmicio Dear Nina(Shakti) And it seems more lobha now, conditions more sadness later on. I really need some encouragement, why to develop right understanding, cause I really lost a sense to live in my life. Best wishes Lukas >good you stress this moment. Understanding now conditions >understanding again later on. #129876 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cycle of birth and death sarahprocter... Reply from Ann Marshall (who is having problems posting directly to the list): ******** Hello Lukas Hearing the true dhamma in this life is a blessing as is having friends who can appreciate and discuss dhamma with you. We are fortunate in having heard it and in having the opportunity to consider and discuss. The development of understanding is indeed gradual, just like the wearing away of the ads blade. This is the only way it can be. We so often wish for short-cuts and quick solutions to our problems, being deluded that there is something "we" can do can results in a quick fix. Not so, as you have said yourself. Yes, you are so right. Lobha now conditions sadness later on. For all of us, after so many lives of ignorance and delusion much lobha and dosa have been accumulated. The only way to be freed of this is through the development of understanding, the understanding that there is no self, no one controlling, no one to relieve us of the suffering. There are only conditioned realities which can be known by panna. It develops slowly and cannot be rushed. But if it is not developed, then for sure the suffering continues without any accumulation of understanding. Remember that each moment is unique, it arises and falls away, never to return. So sadness, discouragement, doubt now are just different moments that arise and fall away almost instantaneously. They are not you and thy are not permanent. They can be understood through the development of understanding. In Warsaw last September, Achan reminded me how we think so often of ourselves. She said "and why not think of the others". Consideration of others is kusala and acts of kusala are supportive of the development of understanding. I have watched as you have developed much consideration for others during our time in Poland and then in Thailand. The sharing of Dhamma reminders, thoughts about Dhamma and questions about Dhamma is very helpful for others. I look forward to your posts and thoughtful discussion and reflection. Lukas, this life is very precious, an opportunity to hear the Dhamma and develop understanding. If you have thoughts of doing anything to end it, I urge you to let someone know and seek help. With metta Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lukas wrote: > And it seems more lobha now, conditions more sadness later on. > I really need some encouragement, why to develop right understanding, cause I really lost a sense to live in my life. #129877 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cycle of birth and death sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lukas wrote: > And it seems more lobha now, conditions more sadness later on. > I really need some encouragement, why to develop right understanding, cause I really lost a sense to live in my life. ... S: I'd like to add to all of Ann's helpful comments. [To others: Yesterday evening (our time in Hong Kong), Lukas sent me an off-list message which sounded rather desperate, so Jon & I called him (using skype to his home ph no) and had a long chat. As we're often travelling and always in a different time zone, I'd encourage others to write to him (as Ann has done) or even consider calling.] Points we discussed in brief: - You mentioned feeling all alone, with no friends to discuss the Dhamma with and not really talking to anyone, not even your mother who you're staying with. We're all alone at each moment regardless of the circumstances. Always living alone with seeing now, hearing, thinking, pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling. We're born alone and die alone....just one moment at a time. When we feel so lonely and alone, it's more clinging to oneself, more dosa (aversion) conditioned in this way. We forget about understanding now of present realities, we forget about metta and kindness to those around us. In other words, the Dhamma remains 'in the book' - kusala, akusala, avyakata dhammas now, but if it's just book knowledge, it's useless. - You mentioned wishing to get away from your present circumstances, finding a more conducive environment, a better situation, such as with monks or surrounded by Dhamma friends, like when we were in Thailand. Simply, we can never get away from our kilesa (defilements) and the latent tendencies for lobha, dosa and moha. Temporarily life may seem easier in another place or there may seem to be more understanding, but there's only ever this moment, the realities now. So now is only ever the time and place for developing understanding. Seeing now is conditioned and just like seeing in Thailand or elsewhere. Ajahn Sujin always stresses that instead of looking for good friends, more important is to be a good friend to others without any expectations. This is the meaning of friendship. - Jon reminded you that we'd had discussions in Thailand and Poland about 'taking responsibility' and what this meant. We all have to learn to look after ourselves so as not to be a burden on others. Even a monk has a right livelihood and needs to observe good sila, teach the Dhamma, provide services in the community and so on. Sometimes it seems you have an idea that hard work and fulfilling other duties means less time for Dhamma study, but this is a very wrong understanding of what is meant by "Dhamma study". The one who 'studies' Dhamma is the one who understands present realities, not the one who spends a lot of time in a quiet place reading texts. It can become an excuse not to meet one's responsibilities and duties in life. - You mentioned the unpleasant feeling and depression you feel. We all have great difficulties to face during just this life. I mentioned how brave Nina has been in spite of all the sorrow she's felt in recent months and Shakti's loss of her son. Resorting to alcohol, drugs or other supposedly 'quick fixes' just causes more trouble, more depression. As Ajahn said in Poland, what we face now is nothing to what we may face in terms of difficulty later - in this or other lives. So these are the tests of understanding, of what we have heard and read in the Teachings. If there isn't the courage to develop understanding now, it'll be so much harder in future. There has to be a beginning now. - You mentioned difficulties with social skills, a lack of empathy with others and so on. All these different mental states, such as the various feelings and so on are so very impermanent and as Ann mentioned, so often all taken for 'Self' - "my lack of social skills", "my depression" and so on. Of course no one minds all the lobha and pleasant feeling. The cries for help are just when there is the depression resulting from all this strong attachment to self. No one can help or change the accumulated tendencies now, but they can be known as passing dhammas, passing elements that don't last at all. We forget all about seeing, visible object and the other realities appearing now, don't we? Like Ann, I also stressed the friendly, helpful qualities we all observed in Thailand. When we think of the needs of others and try to help, there is no unpleasant feeling at all. There are so many opportunities in a day to help your mother and others in even small ways. Transcribing from tapes and sharing Dhamma with friends here is also a really great dana. You have so much to offer others. - Finally on the question of substance abuse and addictions. I urge you again to get the professional help you need. We may well think that because we've heard a lot of Dhamma, that this should be enough to solve all such problems and resist any medical or rehabilitation assistance available. However, we all have so little understanding and the hindrances are so great that we need to wisely take the medicine (in whatever form) is necessary for our sickness. When you came to Thailand, you were given a special leave of absence from a program. I urge you to complete the job and stress again that we all have to work really hard in life in order to take responsibility and develop more understanding of the Teachings. We have this very precious opportunity during this life - let's not fritter it away. Your good friend! Metta Sarah ===== #129878 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:44 pm Subject: Re: It Is An Illusion, a Mirage ... sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > >S: Just like old times..... > T: When 'sanna' ceases, old times also cease. :-) ... S: Yes, well said.... just a thought, a memory at a moment of thinking...:-) .... > >S: However, the point was just that sun-rises, roses and diamonds are not dhammas and don't have the characteristic of anicca. > T: Why not? ... S: Because they are not realities. Only realities (paramattha dhammas) have the characteristic of anicca. Sun-rises, roses and diamonds are like 'old times' - just an idea that is thought about and remembered. ... > >S: Appreciating that only visible object is seen and only tangible object is touched doesn't mean one has to give away all material goods (unless one becomes a monk) or that there is no more clinging to diamonds! > T: When you keep things, there is always the thought, 'this is mine'. When there is the thought 'my diamonds', how come there is no clinging? .... S: It depends on the citta from moment to moment. A sotapanna may have a diamond, but no wrong view of any self or anything belonging to self. Someone may give away their diamond and still have clinging. > ........... > > > Be free > >S: Being free of wrong view about present realities is most precious of all, don't you think? > T: True knowledge (vijja) that abandons self views and conceit(maana) is more precious, I think. The most precious of all is Nibbana. .... S: There can never be the vijja that abandons self views and conceit or realises nibbana without the development of understanding of present realities. The abandoning of self view means being free of wrong view about present realities. Metta Sarah ===== #129879 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:48 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma-anupassana sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > >S: So now, what appears? Hardness, softness, visible object, pleasant or unpleasant feeling? > There can be awareness and understanding now. Just ordinary dhammas, khandhas, realities in daily life. > T: Can you be aware of all these dhammas at the same moment? Of course, you can't. .... S: No me or you to be aware of anything! Awareness can only be aware of one dhamma at a time. Understanding can only know that one reality at a time. One one dhamma appears at any moment. ... >That's why the anupassana of the ayatanas goes like this [SN 35.99]: > He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is inconstant'... [Cakkhu.m aniccanti yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati] > 'Forms are inconstant'... [ruupaa aniccaati yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati] > 'Eye-consciousness is inconstant'... [cakkhuviññaa.na.m aniccanti yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati] > and so on and so forth. ... S: There has to be the 'coming together' of these ayatanas, but only one appears at any time. Metta Sarah ====== #129880 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:57 pm Subject: Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: >...Listening to the Dhamma and wisely considering it are prerequisites for developing wisdom and for entering the path, so the way this takes place is very important. It just happens that the communication from those "wise cittas" to other cittas that may not know the path is the heart of how the Dhamma is transmitted. > > If anyone has more details on how this form of kamma patha takes place, I would be very interested. .... S: Nothing is actually 'transmitted' from one set of cittas to another. If someone has a good understanding of Dhamma and explains it to another, it will be the kusala kamma patha of the one who explains, bringing its own good results in due course. For the person who listens (or rather the cittas referred to as this 'person'), it'll depend on accumulations as to whether there is any wise considering or understanding of what is heard or not. If there is understanding, it'll lead to more understanding. It is kusala kamma patha. If there is attachment or aversion and no understanding, then there will just be the accumulation of more attachment or aversion. Even a Buddha could not make another understand if there weren't the right conditions in place - in particular the accumulations for this. Metta Sarah p.s. let me know if this isn't clear.... ======= #129881 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati in the five sense doors? sarahprocter... Dear Tadao, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > In fact, this was one of the questions I asked Kun Sujin in March. > > Even though > > she explained it to me, I wasn't able to grasp the gist of her answer. > > > > The take-home-message seems to be that one shouldn't be worry about > > in which door sati arises. When it arises it does its function > > regardless of doorways. .... S: Good to stress this - thanks for sharing your helpful qus. It's also helpful to remember that sati arises with all sobhana cittas. So whenever there are kusala cittas in a sense door process, sati must arises, performing its function of 'guarding' against akusala at such times. Even when bhavanga cittas arise in between the sense and mind-door processes during this human life, such as in deep sleep, sati arises with such cittas. However, I think you were specifically asking about sati as in satipatthana. Appreciating that it can 'dart in' in any door-way shows how very fast and natural it is - no time to focus, select an object or 'do' anything. It just arises with understanding by conditions, being aware of what appears at such a time. Metta Sarah ===== #129882 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati in the five sense doors? tadaomiyamot... Hi Sarah Thank you for your explanation. Sati of Satipatthana does not arise often, but when it arises, it does its function. This is very much the point, isn't it? I assume that (eventually) for (some of) us the occurrence of sati would become so mundane (i.e., an ordinary thing) that there wouldn't be even a slight idea of inducing it to arise. tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Tadao, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > > In fact, this was one of the questions I asked Kun Sujin in March. > > > Even though > > > she explained it to me, I wasn't able to grasp the gist of her answer. > > > > > > The take-home-message seems to be that one shouldn't be worry about > > > in which door sati arises. When it arises it does its function > > > regardless of doorways. > .... > S: Good to stress this - thanks for sharing your helpful qus. > > It's also helpful to remember that sati arises with all sobhana cittas. So whenever there are kusala cittas in a sense door process, sati must arises, performing its function of 'guarding' against akusala at such times. > > Even when bhavanga cittas arise in between the sense and mind-door processes during this human life, such as in deep sleep, sati arises with such cittas. > > However, I think you were specifically asking about sati as in satipatthana. Appreciating that it can 'dart in' in any door-way shows how very fast and natural it is - no time to focus, select an object or 'do' anything. It just arises with understanding by conditions, being aware of what appears at such a time. > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > #129883 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:28 pm Subject: Re: frwd from Ann, about Lodewijk's last moments. tadaomiyamot... Dear Kun Nina Yes, Ann write very well and I totally agree with what she says. (I assume that it is only the Buddha and Arahattas who are not afraid of death in a real sense.) Mettaaya, tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > > I wrote to Ann what our family doctor said. He had asked Lodewijk > several times: are you afraid of death. Lodewijk and I had discussed > this and we found that this is only thinking about what has not come > yet. So, Lodewijk did not answer these questions and the doctor said > to me: he was afraid of death. He had such an as it were electrical > shock near his last moment, and the doctor said that this was > psychological. Someone else said: no, just physical, and that he > would not notice this himself. So similar conversations are rather > disconcerting. As Ann said: we do not know. > Ann wrote to me about the subject and I like to frwd this, since she > put things very well: > > > I have been thinking about your comments (below) about the doctor's > > thoughts about Lodewijk's last moments. I don't think that a > > medical doctor can know the citta of a patient just before death, > > just as we can't know the citta of another at any moment. I would > > be inclined to disregard what he said about it. As we know citta > > arise and fall away so rapidly that without highly developed panna > > even the person concerned cannot know, and certainly not an > > observer. One cannot know the last citta of a dying person. So > > the answer is that we don't know. What we do know is that Lodewijk > > developed considerable understanding during his lifetime and > > performed many, many acts of kusala. He was a very kind and > > generous man, an example to all, and so encouraging and supportive > > of your dhamma studies and writings. As for fear of dying, it > > sounds as if he understood that too, it is a momentary thing, each > > moment a new one, the past moment gone forever. From things you > > have said about Lodewijk's questions about the Dhamma and from what > > I have heard him discuss with Achan Sujin and others, he was very > > truthful about things he understood about the teachings of the > > Buddha and things that he questioned. It seems he thought very > > deeply about it and fully recognized the good fortune of hearing > > the Dhamma in this life. Nina, I hope you do not mind that I have > > raised this subject again. > > > > This is all thinking, though. As you say, the sadness is real and > > a conditioned dhamma. What is real now is past and gone almost > > instantaneously. Yes, we cling to it, with stories and more > > stories. And we take the stories for something lasting and true. > > Fortunately even a little intellectual understanding of the Dhamma > > can help us see that there really is nothing to cling to. Easier > > said than done! > > (end quote) > > Nina. > #129884 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:31 pm Subject: Re: It Is An Illusion, a Mirage ... t.sastri Hi Sarah (& Jon), - To my question why sun-rise, rose and diamond are not dhammas and "don't have the characteristic of anicca" your answer is: >S: Because they are not realities. Only realities (paramattha dhammas) have the characteristic of anicca. Sun-rises, roses and diamonds are like 'old times' -just an idea that is thought about and remembered. T: The truth of the matter is that all matters are anicca.m, Sarah. I think, perhaps you confuse 'sanna nimitta' (of roses and diamonds, for example) with 'rupa'? ------ > >T: When you keep things, there is always the thought, 'this is mine'. When there is the thought 'my diamonds', how come there is no clinging? >S: It depends on the citta from moment to moment. A sotapanna may have a diamond, but no wrong view of any self or anything belonging to self. Someone may give away their diamond and still have clinging. T: I am glad you understood my poorly-worded question. Yes, there still is clinging to some extent in a Sotapanna, since tanha and avijja have not been completely abandoned yet. ------ > >T: True knowledge (vijja) that abandons self views and conceit(maana) is more precious, I think. The most precious of all is Nibbana. >S: There can never be the vijja that abandons self views and conceit or realises nibbana without the development of understanding of present realities. The abandoning of self view means being free of wrong view about present realities. T: I'd rather say that there can never be the vijja that abandons self views and conceit to realize nibbana without the full development of Sila, Samadhi, and Panna. Panna of an instructed worldling (who listens to, and considers the Dhamma) is too weak when it is not supported by sila and samadhi. See Upanisa Sutta SN 12.23: "... knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite, disenchantment has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present as its prerequisite, dispassion has disenchantment as its prerequisite, release has dispassion as its prerequisite, knowledge of ending has release as its prerequisite." Thanks again for the opportunity for me, like in the old times, to reflect on the Dhamma with you. It does not matter how differently we understand the Teachings right now, at the end it will have to be the same. Be well, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > >S: Just like old times..... > > T: When 'sanna' ceases, old times also cease. :-) > ... > S: Yes, well said.... just a thought, a memory at a moment of thinking...:-) > .... > > > >S: However, the point was just that sun-rises, roses and diamonds are not dhammas and don't have the characteristic of anicca. > > T: Why not? > ... > S: Because they are not realities. Only realities (paramattha dhammas) have the characteristic of anicca. Sun-rises, roses and diamonds are like 'old times' - just an idea that is thought about and remembered. > ... > > >S: Appreciating that only visible object is seen and only tangible object is touched doesn't mean one has to give away all material goods (unless one becomes a monk) or that there is no more clinging to diamonds! > > T: When you keep things, there is always the thought, 'this is mine'. When there is the thought 'my diamonds', how come there is no clinging? > .... > S: It depends on the citta from moment to moment. A sotapanna may have a diamond, but no wrong view of any self or anything belonging to self. Someone may give away their diamond and still have clinging. > > ........... > > > > > Be free > > >S: Being free of wrong view about present realities is most precious of all, don't you think? > > T: True knowledge (vijja) that abandons self views and conceit(maana) is more precious, I think. The most precious of all is Nibbana. > .... > S: There can never be the vijja that abandons self views and conceit or realises nibbana without the development of understanding of present realities. The abandoning of self view means being free of wrong view about present realities. > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > #129885 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 7. tadaomiyamot... Dear Kun Nina > but the Dhamma is like an island in the ocean of concepts, the ocean > of defilements. I love the above passage; and I very much appreciate the fact that even though I've hardly explored the island, I were at least in this life able to reach its shore. Mettaaya, tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > > Chapter 2. > > Living alone. > > Acharn Sujin repeated many times that what is now today, will be > yesterday tomorrow. This reminds us that all we find so important now > will be past in no time. Right understanding of realities that arise > and fall away will lead to detachment. We find it very important to > be in the company of friends, but Acharn reminded us that in a short > while we shall not know each other any more. In a next life we shall > have new friendships. She spoke about an example in the Tipitaka > about seven friends who in their last life did not remember that they > were friends before. They attained arahatship. > > Acharn said: "When we listen more there will be more understanding of > seeing. There must be that which sees and that which is seen, only > that. There is no other world, no one there. Cittas arise just one at > a time, there is no hearing, no sound, no idea about the object that > is seen and no thinking. > If nothing arises at all there is no world. Whatever arises, even > just one reality, that is the world. It is the arising and falling > away of different realities. The meaning of arising and falling away > is: it never comes back. No one is there, only different cittas, > different cetasikas, different realities. Understanding is not > developed by anyone. It is developed by listening, considering; no > one can do anything because there is no self. > A moment of understanding is like a drop of water in the ocean of > ignorance. > > Understanding is not developed by anyone because there is no person, > no self who develops it. Understanding itself develops when there are > the right conditions for it. There is such a great deal of ignorance, > but the Dhamma is like an island in the ocean of concepts, the ocean > of defilements. > Seeing is one citta and when it arises there cannot be hearing at the > same time. Seeing experiences visible object. Hearing is another > citta that experiences sound. It may seem that we can see and hear at > the same time, but this is a delusion. Each citta can experience only > one object at a time, and it falls away immediately. After it has > fallen away we think of what has been seen and heard, and then we > live in the world of concepts. > > -------- > Nina. > > > #129886 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:44 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma-anupassana t.sastri Hi Sarah, - Another point to ponder! >That's why the anupassana of the ayatanas goes like this [SN 35.99]: He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is inconstant'... [Cakkhu.m aniccanti yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati] > 'Forms are inconstant'... [ruupaa aniccaati yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati] > 'Eye-consciousness is inconstant'... [cakkhuviññaa.na.m aniccanti yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati] > and so on and so forth. ... S: There has to be the 'coming together' of these ayatanas, but only one appears at any time. How do they come together? What puts them together? Btw I have observed that some people do not like be questioned, or even to engage in a long and continuing discussion. Be happy, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > >S: So now, what appears? Hardness, softness, visible object, pleasant or unpleasant feeling? > > There can be awareness and understanding now. Just ordinary dhammas, khandhas, realities in daily life. > > T: Can you be aware of all these dhammas at the same moment? Of course, you can't. > .... > S: No me or you to be aware of anything! > > Awareness can only be aware of one dhamma at a time. Understanding can only know that one reality at a time. One one dhamma appears at any moment. > ... > >That's why the anupassana of the ayatanas goes like this [SN 35.99]: > > He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is inconstant'... [Cakkhu.m aniccanti yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati] > > 'Forms are inconstant'... [ruupaa aniccaati yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati] > > 'Eye-consciousness is inconstant'... [cakkhuviññaa.na.m aniccanti yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati] > > and so on and so forth. > ... > S: There has to be the 'coming together' of these ayatanas, but only one appears at any time. > > Metta > > Sarah > ====== > #129887 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati in the five sense doors? tadaomiyamot... Dear Kun Nina I simply thought that sense doors are sense doors; they simply perceive different types of ruupas. But as you said, it is not important to think or see if a sati arises at a sense door or not. When it arises, let it arise at any door way. Mettaaya, tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Tadao, > > Op 5-apr-2013, om 12:31 heeft tadaomiyamoto@... het volgende > geschreven: > > > In fact, this was one of the questions I asked Kun Sujin in March. > > Even though > > she explained it to me, I wasn't able to grasp the gist of her answer. > > > > The take-home-message seems to be that one shouldn't be worry about > > in which door sati arises. When it arises it does its function > > regardless of doorways. > ----- > N: Yes, sati manages. Thinking does not help, it is not a matter of > thinking. As Jagkrit said: Vipassanaa ~naa.na realizes in mind-door > processes the difference between naama and ruupa. Clear, because > naama is only experienced through the mind-door. As to the sense- > doors, it is a matter of a stream that just continues, no worry about > it. > I see whether I can find what Acharn said in Cambodia. > > Nina. > > > #129888 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:58 pm Subject: [dsg] The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 8 nilovg Dear friends, What we take for a person are mere elements arising and falling away. We read in the “Visuddhimagga” (XI, 30): “What is meant? Just as the butcher, while feeding the cow, bringing it to the shambles, keeping it tied up after bringing it there, slaughtering it, and seeing it slaughtered and dead, does not lose the perception ‘cow’ so long as he has not carved it up and divided it into parts; but when he has divided it up and is sitting there, he loses the perception ‘cow’ and the perception ‘meat’ occurs; he does not think ‘I am selling cow’ or ‘They are carrying cow away’, but rather he thinks ‘I am selling meat’ or ‘They are carrying meat away’; so too this bhikkhu, while still a foolish ordinary person-- both formerly as a layman and as one gone forth into homelessness,-- does not lose the perception ‘living being’ or ‘man’ or ‘person’ so long as he does not, by resolution of the compact into elements, review this body, however placed, however disposed, as consisting of elements. But when he does review it as consisting of elements, he loses the perception ‘living being’ and his mind establishes itself upon elements.” It may not be appealing to see the body as elements. We think of people as “this man” or “that woman”. We are not used to analyzing what we take for a “person” just as we analyze matter, for example, in physics. We might find it crude to think of a body which is carved up and divided up into parts, just as a cow is carved up by a butcher. When a cow is peeled and carved up and then covered again by the skin we may believe that there is a cow, but in reality there is no cow at all. Evenso we may believe that a person exists, but there isn’t any person, there are only elements devoid of “self”. We should consider again and again that what we take for a lasting person are actually mental phenomena (in Pali: nåma) and physical phenomena (in Pali: rúpa) that arise and fall away. Consciousness, citta, is nåma. There is only one citta arising at a time, but each citta is accompanied by several mental factors, cetasikas, which each perform their own function while they assist the citta in knowing the object. One can think of something with aversion, with pleasant feeling or with wisdom. Aversion, feeling and wisdom are mental phenomena which are not citta; they are cetasikas which accompany different cittas. Thus, both citta and cetasika are nåma, they experience an object, whereas rúpa such as sound or eyesense do not experience anything. Some cetasikas such as feeling or remembrance, saññå, accompany each citta, whereas other types of cetasikas accompany only particular types of citta. Attachment, lobha, aversion, dosa, and ignorance, moha, are akusala cetasikas which accompany only akusala cittas. Non-attachment, alobha, non-aversion, adosa, and wisdom, amoha or paññå, are sobhana cetasikas, beautiful cetasikas, which can accompany only sobhana cittas. --------- Nina. #129889 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:59 pm Subject: No Place To Hide/Vidhurapandita Jataka yawares1 Dear Members......No Place To Hide/Vidhurapandita Jataka At 5 AM this Uposatha day..I went out walking meditation...according to the calender we should see new moon...but the sky was so cloudy that I couldn't see new moon/stars...but Texas weather is so wonderful !! And I have a nice jataka/a nice dhammapada stories for you all. Please click: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=12389&p=240021#p240021 ********** yawares #129890 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sacca Parami tadaomiyamot... Dear Kun Nina Thank you very very much for your explanation with the long citations. The point is very much in accordance with one of the Dhammapada gaathaa: Not doing any akusala deeds, conducting all types of kusala deeds and purifying one's mind. This is the teaching of all the Buddhas. Mettaaya, tadao P.S. Finding that the weekend sessions at the Foundation are very useful, I will be back to Bangkok in August for a month. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Tadao, > Op 5-apr-2013, om 12:39 heeft tadaomiyamoto@... het volgende > geschreven: > > > Could you tell me why Sacca in important for the development of > > sati/pannaa? > > > > (One important realization I had in March in Bangkok was that one > > has to be "sincere" > > in the sense that Dhamma ought to practiced, not part-time, full- > > time. For lay-followers there would be many excuses of not devoting > > oneself to Dhamma, but these excuses are very much against the > > sprit of Sacca.) > ---------- > N: We pay respect to the Buddha but are we truthful, sincere? As > Acharn says, we have to be truthful through body, speech and mind. > Having metta, helping where we can, developing understanding. It is > not so much practice (this word has many associations of meaning), > rather developing understanding of whatever dhamma appears now. > Quote from Acharn's Perfections, on Truthfulness: > > ... The perfection of truthfulness, sacca påram, is sincerity and > truthfulness with regard to realities. It means truthfulness through > body, speech and mind. In order to realize the four noble Truths, one > should be truthful, sincere, with regard to oneself, and this means, > truthful with regard to the realities which appear just as they are. > Kusala is kusala and akusala is akusala; they cannot be otherwise, no > matter whether they arise in oneself or in someone else... > Truthfulness is the dhamma that enhances the arising and development > of all kusala, because truthfulness is sincerity with regard to the > eradication of defilements. When kusala does not arise and we realize > that we are not sincere in the development of kusala, this can be a > condition for its arising. When akusala arises we should be truthful > so that sati sampajañña can be aware of the characteristic of > akusala. In this way there are conditions for the abandoning of > akusala and the development of kusala. > The Bodhisatta developed in his daily life all kinds of kusala to a > high degree, including very subtle and refined kusala. People who > have not yet realized the noble Truths should follow in the > Bodhisatta's steps. This means that one should develop all degrees of > paññ with the aim to eradicate defilements.... > > ... The perfection of truthfulness is essential. We read in the > Commentary to the "Basket of Conduct in the Miscellaneous Sayings: > > The perfection of truthfulness should be reviewed thus: "Without > truthfulness, virtue, etc., is impossible, and there can be no > practice in accordance with one's vows. All evil states converge upon > the transgression of truth. One who is not devoted to truth is > unreliable and his word cannot be accepted in the future. On the > other hand, one devoted to truth secures the foundation of all noble > qualities. With truthfulness as the foundation, he is capable of > purifying and fulfilling all the requisites of enlightenment. Not > deceived about the true nature of phenomena, he performs the > functions of all the requisites of enlightenment and completes the > practice of the bodhisattva path." ... > > ------ > Nina. > > > > > #129891 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q.Cycle of birth and death nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 9-apr-2013, om 18:30 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > And it seems more lobha now, conditions more sadness later on. > I really need some encouragement, why to develop right > understanding, cause I really lost a sense to live in my life. ------ N: This morning while listening to the audio I thought of you. I quote: (end quote). Thus, a sense in your life is developing understanding. ---- Nina. #129892 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Yathabhuta.m Pajanati nilovg Dear Tep, Op 9-apr-2013, om 16:25 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > N: It is the opposite: through right understanding the wrong view > of self is eradicated. > ------ > T: I am not sure that I follow you, dear Nina. Is this "right > understanding" found in a non-ariyan who still has the three > fetters? Or, is it the sammaditthi of the path at Stream-enrty > after the three fetters are eradicated? ------ N: it has to be of the non-ariyan, there must be a beginning. Understanding of the present reality, whatever it may be. Only after a long, long time it can be lokuttara. But we should remember the adze handle. The three fetters are eradicated at the moment of the Path of the Sotaapanna. But it does not help us now to think about what is far away. Nina. #129893 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Cycle of birth and death .. Never Falls Back.. nilovg Dear Tep, Op 9-apr-2013, om 16:40 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > So the development of understanding in a non-Ariyan is 100% > deterministic; that it always increases, never decreases or ceases. > Such development of understanding is, therefore, permanent -- > despite the fact that is a conditioned dhamma. ------- N: Nothing is permanent. A moment of understanding falls away together with the kusala citta, but understanding is accumulated. Since our life is an unbroken series of cittas, each citta that falls away conditions the next one by way of anantara paccaya (contiguity- condition). Understanding is never lost, but for a whole life time there may not be any opportunity for it to arise. That also happened in some lives of the Bodhisatta. This is compared to the absence of fire, it was just black coal. Quote from Acharn Sujin's Perfections, Ch 2: < Also the Bodhisatta had at times to associate with fools. For example, during one of his lives the Bodhisatta belonged to a clan of people with wrong view. In his life as the brahmin youth Jotipåla he was born into a family of people who had wrong view and no confidence in the Buddha. Jotipåla followed his parents in their disdain of the Buddha. The brahmins who had wrong view had no confidence in the Buddha Kassapa, who was the last Buddha before the Buddha Gotama. The Commentary to the “Discourse on Ghaìikåra”, Middle Length Sayings, the “Papañcasúdaní”, deals with the accumulation of the perfections by the Bodhisatta until the life he was Jotipåla, when he came into contact with people of wrong view. The Commentary compared the accumulated perfections to a brightly shining fire which during that life came into contact with water and was therefore extinguished by it so that the rays of light disappeared and only black charcoal was left. We do not know our past lives but we can learn from the story of the Bodhisatta as Jotipåla: although he had accumulated the perfections to a high degree, he still associated with fools. ----- Nina. #129894 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sacca Parami nilovg Dear Tadao, August 31 until Sept. 13 we are with Acharn in Vietnam. After that is stay for about another week in Bgk. You may consider joining us in Vietnam. Nina. Op 10-apr-2013, om 15:10 heeft tadaomiyamoto@... het volgende geschreven: > P.S. Finding that the weekend sessions at the Foundation are very > useful, I will be back to Bangkok in August for a month. #129895 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Yathabhuta.m Pajanati t.sastri Dear Nina, - > N: it has to be of the non-ariyan, there must be a beginning. > Understanding of the present reality, whatever it may be. Only after > a long, long time it can be lokuttara. But we should remember the > adze handle. The three fetters are eradicated at the moment of the > Path of the Sotaapanna. But it does not help us now to think about > what is far away. I found a video about the adze handle. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmkLcXgJExg Indeed, "the other shore" is far away. It is good when you make it clear in black and white, no false hope or claim. 'The near shore, dubious & risky' stands for self-identification. 'The further shore, secure and free from risk' stands for Unbinding. 'The raft' stands for just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. 'Making an effort with hands & feet' stands for the arousing of persistence. 'Crossed over, having gone to the other shore, he would stand on high ground, a brahman' stands for the arahant." [Asivisa Sutta] Thanks, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Tep, > Op 9-apr-2013, om 16:25 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > > > N: It is the opposite: through right understanding the wrong view > > of self is eradicated. > > ------ > > T: I am not sure that I follow you, dear Nina. Is this "right > > understanding" found in a non-ariyan who still has the three > > fetters? Or, is it the sammaditthi of the path at Stream-enrty > > after the three fetters are eradicated? > ------ > N: it has to be of the non-ariyan, there must be a beginning. > Understanding of the present reality, whatever it may be. Only after > a long, long time it can be lokuttara. But we should remember the > adze handle. The three fetters are eradicated at the moment of the > Path of the Sotaapanna. But it does not help us now to think about > what is far away. > > Nina. > > > > > #129896 From: "connie" Date: Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:23 am Subject: Re: No Place To Hide/Vidhurapandita Jataka nichiconn look, Yawares! "Thai Jataka Paintings of the Ratanakosin Period On-line Exhibition and Sale" http://www.wayofdesign.com/thaipics/index.htm speechless, connie #129898 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:59 am Subject: Re: No Place To Hide/Vidhurapandita Jataka yawares1 Dear Connie, Yes...beautiful indeed !! Thanks, yawares --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > look, Yawares! > > "Thai Jataka Paintings of the Ratanakosin Period On-line Exhibition and Sale" > http://www.wayofdesign.com/thaipics/index.htm > > speechless, > connie > #129899 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:56 am Subject: Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Rob E, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > >...Listening to the Dhamma and wisely considering it are prerequisites for developing wisdom and for entering the path, so the way this takes place is very important. It just happens that the communication from those "wise cittas" to other cittas that may not know the path is the heart of how the Dhamma is transmitted. > > > > If anyone has more details on how this form of kamma patha takes place, I would be very interested. > .... > S: Nothing is actually 'transmitted' from one set of cittas to another. If someone has a good understanding of Dhamma and explains it to another, it will be the kusala kamma patha of the one who explains, bringing its own good results in due course. > > For the person who listens (or rather the cittas referred to as this 'person'), it'll depend on accumulations as to whether there is any wise considering or understanding of what is heard or not. If there is understanding, it'll lead to more understanding. It is kusala kamma patha. If there is attachment or aversion and no understanding, then there will just be the accumulation of more attachment or aversion. > > Even a Buddha could not make another understand if there weren't the right conditions in place - in particular the accumulations for this. > Metta > > Sarah > > p.s. let me know if this isn't clear.... This is very clear, and I understand that understanding cannot be transmitted. My only point - and it may be insignificant to some people compared to understanding itself - is that those rupas that are produced as the result of the kamma patha of "explaining" or even just "reciting" the Dhamma, those rupas become the object of hearing for the person listening. That is how the "word" of the Dhamma gets to that person's hearing, so that they may then consider the words wisely or not. Sure, once the person hears the Dhamma, they may misunderstand it, understand it and discard it or wisely consider it. That is up to accumulations. But even *hearing* the Dhamma in the first place is dependent on those rupas that can be "heard object." It's very interesting to me that this physical reality must be present or the Dhamma cannot be heard and understood. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #129900 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:31 am Subject: Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. thomaslaw03 Hi Dhamma friends, The term, samsara (`the continuous cycle of death and rebirth'), is not found in the main teachings of the Buddha, such as the four noble truths, conditioned arising (patccasamuppada), and the three characteristics (in compounded things). Thus, samsara does not belong to the main teachings of Buddhism; it in fact belongs to Hinduism. Any arguments? Thomas Law #129901 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:25 pm Subject: Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. kenhowardau Hi Thomas, ---------- > T: The term, samsara (`the continuous cycle of death and rebirth'), is not found in the main teachings of the Buddha, such as the four noble truths, conditioned arising (patccasamuppada), and the three characteristics (in compounded things). ----------- KH: The first noble truth refers to all dhammas that are subject to clinging. They are continuously arising and falling away. And they have been doing that for incalculably long periods of time, as they will continue to do in the future. Therefore, they (the first noble truth) are called samsara. ------------------ > T: Thus, samsara does not belong to the main teachings of Buddhism; it in fact belongs to Hinduism. ------------------ KH: The conditioned dhammas described by the Buddha are the ultimately real samsara. They lie behind conventional ideas of samsara that are known to worldlings. ------ > T: Any arguments? ------ KH: Is the Pope Catholic? :-) Ken H #129902 From: Deanna Date: Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:24 pm Subject: Cycles of birth and death deannajohnso... Dearest Lucas, I feel your pain. Yes lobha in this moment conditions more suffering. This moment is the right place - actually the only place for right understanding to develop. You are fortunate indeed to have heard the dhamma and have the love and support of so many friends. Seeing lobha or dosa when it arises, recognizing it, considering it - understanding begins to develop. The understanding Of knowing that it is impermanent. That it has arisen, is here for a moment - then passes away. Usually we take it for being our lobha, our dosa and that it is somehow solid. More and more - little by little it is known - as not me or mine. Bodhi, my son of 31 years died 6 months ago very suddenly. It has been such an incredible journey experiencing such a deep suffering that I could only have imagined. It's been so interesting seeing a certain memory arise, recognizing lobha and then Waves of grief follow. It is knowing suffering very directly. When this happens Nothing can be done. A silent awareness of just this moment. What an Incredible opportunity this life is. To awaken to all that is. Dearest Lucas know that you are supported and cared for. Sending you metta, Shakti <....> #129903 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:24 pm Subject: [dsg] The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 9. nilovg Dear friends, When we lose dear people through death we are bound to feel lonely. I had the following conversation about this subject: Nina: “When feeling lonely it is difficult to be aware of one reality at a time. But if we try to escape this situation there is lobha (attachment) again.” Acharn Sujin: ”That does not work. We have to be courageous, brave enough to see that there is actually no one, not even you at that moment. This is the best cure.” Sarah: “Even when we are with people, we are seeing alone, hearing alone." Nina: "Akusala cetasikas are bad friends and they are gone.” Sarah: “When feeling sorry, there are bad friends.” Nina: “They come again and again and again.” Acharn: “There is only citta with such realities. It cannot stay, it will go away. Is it good to have it?” Nina: “It is not good to have it.” Acharn: “So, it is better to have understanding.” Nina: ”This is not possible on command.” Acharn: “At the moment of understanding there is no regret. One is freed from being enslaved, and this was never realized before because one enjoyed being enslaved. When there is more understanding of Dhamma there is no wish for anything at all. This is the beginning of understanding. It has conditions for its arising and nobody can do anything at all. We can learn to see realities, one at a time. Like now, there is seeing and at other moments there are hearing or thinking, unknown all the time. But if there is a moment of understanding of a reality, it can arise again and go on to other realities.” Citta experiences one object, and it is actually alone. At the moment of seeing visible object there is no one else, seeing is alone. At the moment of seeing no hearing or thinking arise. Seeing experiences the object alone. When realities are taken as a mass, a collection, there is the world of many people. Cittas arise and fall away in succession very rapidly, they are like a flash. That is why we have a concept or idea of what appears as something permanent. Acharn said that we have to be brave in order to understand that what appears is just a reality. We need courage to let go of wrong view that clings to the idea of person or “self”. Right understanding leads to detachment, but our nature is attachment. While we were in Huahin we went to the sea where Ivan’s ashes and bones were to be let down into the water. We went out on a boat that belonged to the Water Police. While we were waiting for the boat in the harbour and also while we were on the boat Acharn kept on speaking about the true nature of the reality appearing at the present moment. We considered realities instead of dwelling too much on situations, on sad events. A monk who always listened to Acharn’s radio program was present and after he recited some texts, the ashes were let down into the water. The boat went three times around this place and we kept on throwing flowers into the water. In the end there was a circle of flowers around the place where the ashes went down. Acharn said: this is like the cycle of birth and death. --------- Nina. #129904 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:06 pm Subject: Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. thomaslaw03 Hi Ken H, -KH: " ... they (the first noble truth) are called samsara." " ...The conditioned dhammas described by the Buddha are the ultimately real samsara." Could you show me textual evidence? Thomas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Thomas, > > ---------- > > T: The term, samsara (`the continuous cycle of death and rebirth'), is not found in the main teachings of the Buddha, such as the four noble truths, conditioned arising (patccasamuppada), and the three characteristics (in compounded things). > ----------- > > KH: The first noble truth refers to all dhammas that are subject to clinging. They are continuously arising and falling away. And they have been doing that for incalculably long periods of time, as they will continue to do in the future. Therefore, they (the first noble truth) are called samsara. > > ------------------ > > T: Thus, samsara does not belong to the main teachings of Buddhism; it in fact belongs to Hinduism. > ------------------ > > KH: The conditioned dhammas described by the Buddha are the ultimately real samsara. They lie behind conventional ideas of samsara that are known to worldlings. > > ------ > > T: Any arguments? > ------ > > KH: Is the Pope Catholic? :-) > > Ken H > #129906 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:54 pm Subject: Right Supports for Right Understanding t.sastri Hi Nina and Sarah, - [due to a typo please ignore the message that was posted just before this] Somehow I've got a feeling that the discussion on right understanding that I have made so far is not yet as clear as it should. So please allow me to make it clearer as follows: In order to develop "right understanding" the mind has to be non-distracted and unified through right concentration which is supported by right effort and right mindfulness. The above statement applies both before and after Stream-entry. ................ I like this explanation by Bhikkhu Bodhi: "The commentators illustrate the interdependence of the three factors within the concentration group with a simple simile. Three boys go to a park to play. While walking along they see a tree with flowering tops and decide they want to gather the flowers. But the flowers are beyond the reach even of the tallest boy. Then one friend bends down and offers his back. The tall boy climbs up, but still hesitates to reach for the flowers from fear of falling. So the third boy comes over and offers his shoulder for support. The first boy, standing on the back of the second boy, then leans on the shoulder of the third boy, reaches up, and gathers the flowers." "In this simile the tall boy who picks the flowers represents concentration with its function of unifying the mind. But to unify the mind concentration needs support: the energy provided by right effort, which is like the boy who offers his back. It also requires the stabilizing awareness provided by mindfulness, which is like the boy who offers his shoulder. When right concentration receives this support, then empowered by right effort and balanced by right mindfulness it can draw in the scattered strands of thought and fix the mind firmly on its object." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/waytoend.html Thank you for reading this far and for having patience with me. Tep === #129907 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 9. tadaomiyamot... Dear Kun Nina Thank you for telling us about the final part of Ivan's funeral. It was a sad event but sounded very beautiful, too. tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > > When we lose dear people through death we are bound to feel lonely. I > had the following conversation about this subject: > > Nina: "When feeling lonely it is difficult to be aware of one reality > at a time. But if we try to escape this situation there is lobha > (attachment) again. > Acharn Sujin: "That does not work. We have to be courageous, brave > enough to see that there is actually no one, not even you at that > moment. This is the best cure. > Sarah: "Even when we are with people, we are seeing alone, hearing > alone." > Nina: "Akusala cetasikas are bad friends and they are gone. > Sarah: "When feeling sorry, there are bad friends. > Nina: "They come again and again and again. > Acharn: "There is only citta with such realities. It cannot stay, it > will go away. Is it good to have it? > Nina: "It is not good to have it. > Acharn: "So, it is better to have understanding. > Nina: "This is not possible on command. > Acharn: "At the moment of understanding there is no regret. One is > freed from being enslaved, and this was never realized before because > one enjoyed being enslaved. > When there is more understanding of Dhamma there is no wish for > anything at all. This is the beginning of understanding. It has > conditions for its arising and nobody can do anything at all. We can > learn to see realities, one at a time. Like now, there is seeing and > at other moments there are hearing or thinking, unknown all the time. > But if there is a moment of understanding of a reality, it can arise > again and go on to other realities. > > Citta experiences one object, and it is actually alone. At the moment > of seeing visible object there is no one else, seeing is alone. At > the moment of seeing no hearing or thinking arise. Seeing experiences > the object alone. When realities are taken as a mass, a collection, > there is the world of many people. Cittas arise and fall away in > succession very rapidly, they are like a flash. That is why we have a > concept or idea of what appears as something permanent. Acharn said > that we have to be brave in order to understand that what appears is > just a reality. We need courage to let go of wrong view that clings > to the idea of person or "self. Right understanding leads to > detachment, but our nature is attachment. > > While we were in Huahin we went to the sea where Ivan's ashes and > bones were to be let down into the water. We went out on a boat that > belonged to the Water Police. While we were waiting for the boat in > the harbour and also while we were on the boat Acharn kept on > speaking about the true nature of the reality appearing at the > present moment. We considered realities instead of dwelling too much > on situations, on sad events. A monk who always listened to Acharn's > radio program was present and after he recited some texts, the ashes > were let down into the water. The boat went three times around this > place and we kept on throwing flowers into the water. In the end > there was a circle of flowers around the place where the ashes went > down. Acharn said: this is like the cycle of birth and death. > > --------- > Nina. > > > > > #129908 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sacca Parami tadaomiyamot... Hi Kun Nina Thank you for your invitation. In order to stay in Bangkok (and Ayutthaya), I've, unfortunately, already booked my flight, arriving there on August 2nd and departing on 31st. It is nice to see that (many) Vietnamese have started seeing the essence of the Buddhism. Best Wishes, tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Tadao, > August 31 until Sept. 13 we are with Acharn in Vietnam. After that is > stay for about another week in Bgk. You may consider joining us in > Vietnam. > Nina. > Op 10-apr-2013, om 15:10 heeft tadaomiyamoto@... het volgende > geschreven: > > > P.S. Finding that the weekend sessions at the Foundation are very > > useful, I will be back to Bangkok in August for a month. > > > > > #129909 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:48 pm Subject: Re: It Is An Illusion, a Mirage ... tadaomiyamot... Dear Tep and Sarah Even monks have a lot of lobha; an attachment to tranquility, to freedom of time, to accumulation of the (mere) knowledge of Dhamma, etc. We layfollowers cannot give up everything we have, and live like a monk. However we can appreciate whatever we have and make use of them "wisely." Appreciation is OK but "indulgence" is not. "Indulgence" in things/people would not help us so much to develop sati and panna. ("Indulgence is very much against the spirit of SACCA" is one thing I've learnt very recently.) tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > >S: Just like old times..... > > T: When 'sanna' ceases, old times also cease. :-) > ... > S: Yes, well said.... just a thought, a memory at a moment of thinking...:-) > .... > > > >S: However, the point was just that sun-rises, roses and diamonds are not dhammas and don't have the characteristic of anicca. > > T: Why not? > ... > S: Because they are not realities. Only realities (paramattha dhammas) have the characteristic of anicca. Sun-rises, roses and diamonds are like 'old times' - just an idea that is thought about and remembered. > ... > > >S: Appreciating that only visible object is seen and only tangible object is touched doesn't mean one has to give away all material goods (unless one becomes a monk) or that there is no more clinging to diamonds! > > T: When you keep things, there is always the thought, 'this is mine'. When there is the thought 'my diamonds', how come there is no clinging? > .... > S: It depends on the citta from moment to moment. A sotapanna may have a diamond, but no wrong view of any self or anything belonging to self. Someone may give away their diamond and still have clinging. > > ........... > > > > > Be free > > >S: Being free of wrong view about present realities is most precious of all, don't you think? > > T: True knowledge (vijja) that abandons self views and conceit(maana) is more precious, I think. The most precious of all is Nibbana. > .... > S: There can never be the vijja that abandons self views and conceit or realises nibbana without the development of understanding of present realities. The abandoning of self view means being free of wrong view about present realities. > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > #129912 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:11 am Subject: Re: Right Supports for Right Understanding epsteinrob Hi Tep. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Nina and Sarah, - [due to a typo please ignore the message that was posted just before this] > > Somehow I've got a feeling that the discussion on right understanding that I have made so far is not yet as clear as it should. So please allow me to make it clearer as follows: > In order to develop "right understanding" the mind has to be non-distracted and unified through right concentration which is supported by right effort and right mindfulness. > > The above statement applies both before and after Stream-entry. > ................ > > I like this explanation by Bhikkhu Bodhi: > > "The commentators illustrate the interdependence of the three factors within the concentration group with a simple simile. Three boys go to a park to play. While walking along they see a tree with flowering tops and decide they want to gather the flowers. But the flowers are beyond the reach even of the tallest boy. Then one friend bends down and offers his back. The tall boy climbs up, but still hesitates to reach for the flowers from fear of falling. So the third boy comes over and offers his shoulder for support. The first boy, standing on the back of the second boy, then leans on the shoulder of the third boy, reaches up, and gathers the flowers." > "In this simile the tall boy who picks the flowers represents concentration with its function of unifying the mind. But to unify the mind concentration needs support: the energy provided by right effort, which is like the boy who offers his back. It also requires the stabilizing awareness provided by mindfulness, which is like the boy who offers his shoulder. When right concentration receives > this support, then empowered by right effort and balanced by right mindfulness it can draw in the scattered strands of thought and fix the mind firmly on its object." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/waytoend.html I like this explanation as well, and it accords with my limited understanding that the mental factors co-dependently support each other, otherwise it is very difficult for one or the other to function fully. I wish I had the sutta at hand - one day I must learn to keep track of what I read - but there is a nice one where the Buddha talks about the different orders in which some of the factors can be developed -- that some develop samatha first as a way towards vipassana, that others develop sati first and that this leads to concentration. Some develop both at the same time, as, to my reading, appears to be suggested in the "balanced" sequence of the anapanasati sutta, where there are "steps" that support samatha, steps that support sati, and finally deeper instances of expanded sati or deeper samatha into jhana. Eventually this sequence leads to the development of the full set of enlightenment factors, with some deference paid to the setting aside or suppression/eradication of the defilements, which are also a distraction and interference to right concentration. There is another sutta - which I also don't have at hand - which discusses the application of satipatthana and development of insight within the jhana states. This has been discussed several times since I've been at dsg, the idea being that the subtle state of the jhana becomes the object of awareness. Some argue that one must exit the jhana in order to treat it as an object of mindfulness in which case it is being encountered as a nimitta, after-image or after-experience of the jhana; but it seems to me that as the Buddha discusses the passage from the more external/superficial jhana to the next deeper one, and so on, that this sequence might not take place if one were to exit each jhana and then go back into it. The development seems to take place by using each jhana as the launching-pad for the next more concentrated one. And the Buddha was seen to demonstrate this sequence a number of times, including on the occasion of his parinibbana, where he made a point of demonstrating the sequence into the high formless jhanas and then back to the 4th jhana from which he exited this life. To go through the jhanas like that and then backtrack to the 4th with such precision is clearly demonstration of the great skill of the arahant/Buddha, and may come with the label "don't try this at home," but it does show how mindful awareness can skillfully go from one concentrated state to another. In any case, I think that looking at the way the major mental enlightenment factors develop together and support each other is a vital study. Intellectual "right understanding" without active mindfulness and right concentration in the moment is empty, and mere awareness of phenomena without understanding is equally superficial, though it may have developmental value. When understanding, effort, energy, awareness and concentration come together skillfully, that is a pretty good situation for higher development. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #129913 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:24 am Subject: Re: Right Supports for Right Understanding t.sastri Hi Rob E., - Your understanding of the Dhamma is not limited at all, in my sincere opinion (IMSO). Thank you very much for sharing the excellent thought that sums up the relevant points about concentration as the supporting factor for discernment. [Rob E.:] 1. The mental factors co-dependently support each other, otherwise it is very difficult for one or the other to function fully: there are "steps" that support samatha, steps that support sati, and finally deeper instances of expanded sati or deeper samatha into jhana. Eventually this sequence leads to the development of the full set of enlightenment factorswith some deference paid to the setting aside or suppression/eradication of the defilements, which are also a distraction and interference to right concentration. 2. The subtle state of the jhana becomes the object of awareness as the meditator exits a jhana to the next deeper one, i.e., using each jhana as the launching-pad for the next more concentrated one. The Buddha was seen to demonstrate this sequence a number of times, including on the occasion of his Parinibbana. 3. Looking at the way the major mental enlightenment factors develop together and support each other is a vital study. Intellectual "right understanding" without active mindfulness and right concentration in the moment is empty, and mere awareness of phenomena without understanding is equally superficial, though it may have developmental value. When understanding, effort, energy, awareness and concentration come together skillfully, that is a pretty good situation for higher development. ------------ Congratulations for the spotless understanding of what "higher development" actually means in the majority of the Suttas. However, someone may argue that what you said is the samatha-vipassana method, and that higher development can also be achieved through vipassana bhavana based on just khanika samadhi (momentary concentration) with no jhana. Truly, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Tep. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > > Hi Nina and Sarah, - [due to a typo please ignore the message that was posted just before this] > > > > Somehow I've got a feeling that the discussion on right understanding that I have made so far is not yet as clear as it should. So please allow me to make it clearer as follows: > > In order to develop "right understanding" the mind has to be non-distracted and unified through right concentration which is supported by right effort and right mindfulness. > > > > The above statement applies both before and after Stream-entry. > > ................ > > > > I like this explanation by Bhikkhu Bodhi: > > > > "The commentators illustrate the interdependence of the three factors within the concentration group with a simple simile. Three boys go to a park to play. While walking along they see a tree with flowering tops and decide they want to gather the flowers. But the flowers are beyond the reach even of the tallest boy. Then one friend bends down and offers his back. The tall boy climbs up, but still hesitates to reach for the flowers from fear of falling. So the third boy comes over and offers his shoulder for support. The first boy, standing on the back of the second boy, then leans on the shoulder of the third boy, reaches up, and gathers the flowers." > > "In this simile the tall boy who picks the flowers represents concentration with its function of unifying the mind. But to unify the mind concentration needs support: the energy provided by right effort, which is like the boy who offers his back. It also requires the stabilizing awareness provided by mindfulness, which is like the boy who offers his shoulder. When right concentration receives > > this support, then empowered by right effort and balanced by right mindfulness it can draw in the scattered strands of thought and fix the mind firmly on its object." > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/waytoend.html > > I like this explanation as well, and it accords with my limited understanding that the mental factors co-dependently support each other, otherwise it is very difficult for one or the other to function fully. I wish I had the sutta at hand - one day I must learn to keep track of what I read - but there is a nice one where the Buddha talks about the different orders in which some of the factors can be developed -- that some develop samatha first as a way towards vipassana, that others develop sati first and that this leads to concentration. Some develop both at the same time, as, to my reading, appears to be suggested in the "balanced" sequence of the anapanasati sutta, where there are "steps" that support samatha, steps that support sati, and finally deeper instances of expanded sati or deeper samatha into jhana. Eventually this sequence leads to the development of the full set of enlightenment factors, with some deference paid to the setting aside or suppression/eradication of the defilements, which are also a distraction and interference to right concentration. > > There is another sutta - which I also don't have at hand - which discusses the application of satipatthana and development of insight within the jhana states. This has been discussed several times since I've been at dsg, the idea being that the subtle state of the jhana becomes the object of awareness. Some argue that one must exit the jhana in order to treat it as an object of mindfulness in which case it is being encountered as a nimitta, after-image or after-experience of the jhana; but it seems to me that as the Buddha discusses the passage from the more external/superficial jhana to the next deeper one, and so on, that this sequence might not take place if one were to exit each jhana and then go back into it. The development seems to take place by using each jhana as the launching-pad for the next more concentrated one. And the Buddha was seen to demonstrate this sequence a number of times, including on the occasion of his parinibbana, where he made a point of demonstrating the sequence into the high formless jhanas and then back to the 4th jhana from which he exited this life. > > To go through the jhanas like that and then backtrack to the 4th with such precision is clearly demonstration of the great skill of the arahant/Buddha, and may come with the label "don't try this at home," but it does show how mindful awareness can skillfully go from one concentrated state to another. > > In any case, I think that looking at the way the major mental enlightenment factors develop together and support each other is a vital study. Intellectual "right understanding" without active mindfulness and right concentration in the moment is empty, and mere awareness of phenomena without understanding is equally superficial, though it may have developmental value. When understanding, effort, energy, awareness and concentration come together skillfully, that is a pretty good situation for higher development. > > Best, > Rob E. > > = = = = = = = = = = > #129914 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:13 am Subject: Re: It Is An Illusion, a Mirage ... t.sastri Dear Tadao - Tell me more about what you recently have learnt about 'sacca' ! It is very true that indulgence in anything doesn't help, it only hurts. But one who is indulging does not know indulgence the way it really is. Thanks, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "tadaomiyamoto@..." wrote: > > Dear Tep and Sarah > > Even monks have a lot of lobha; an attachment to tranquility, to freedom of time, to accumulation of the (mere) knowledge of Dhamma, etc. > > We layfollowers cannot give up everything we have, and live like a monk. > However we can appreciate whatever we have and make use of them "wisely." > Appreciation is OK but "indulgence" is not. "Indulgence" in things/people would not help us so much to develop sati and panna. ("Indulgence is very much against the spirit of SACCA" is one thing I've learnt very recently.) > > tadao > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > > > Hi Tep, > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > > > >S: Just like old times..... > > > T: When 'sanna' ceases, old times also cease. :-) > > ... > > S: Yes, well said.... just a thought, a memory at a moment of thinking...:-) > > .... > > > > > >S: However, the point was just that sun-rises, roses and diamonds are not dhammas and don't have the characteristic of anicca. > > > T: Why not? > > ... > > S: Because they are not realities. Only realities (paramattha dhammas) have the characteristic of anicca. Sun-rises, roses and diamonds are like 'old times' - just an idea that is thought about and remembered. > > ... > > > >S: Appreciating that only visible object is seen and only tangible object is touched doesn't mean one has to give away all material goods (unless one becomes a monk) or that there is no more clinging to diamonds! > > > T: When you keep things, there is always the thought, 'this is mine'. When there is the thought 'my diamonds', how come there is no clinging? > > .... > > S: It depends on the citta from moment to moment. A sotapanna may have a diamond, but no wrong view of any self or anything belonging to self. Someone may give away their diamond and still have clinging. > > > ........... > > > > > > > Be free > > > >S: Being free of wrong view about present realities is most precious of all, don't you think? > > > T: True knowledge (vijja) that abandons self views and conceit(maana) is more precious, I think. The most precious of all is Nibbana. > > .... > > S: There can never be the vijja that abandons self views and conceit or realises nibbana without the development of understanding of present realities. The abandoning of self view means being free of wrong view about present realities. > > > > Metta > > > > Sarah > > ===== > > > #129915 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:31 am Subject: Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. kenhowardau Hi Thomas, ------ >>KH: " ... they (the first noble truth) are called samsara." " ...The conditioned dhammas described by the Buddha are the ultimately real samsara." >> > T: Could you show me textual evidence? -------- KH: Textual evidence is not my strong point :-) but no amount of it could settle this matter. Your initial question assumed that the texts contained two teachings: one based on the four noble truths and the other based on Hinduism. But that can't be right, can it? The Buddha taught only the first of those two. When the Buddha described samsara he was not teaching the Hindu understanding of it; he was teaching dukkha and the cause of dukkha. Everything else he described was either nibbana or the path leading to nibbana. Ken H #129916 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:00 am Subject: Re: Right Supports for Right Understanding epsteinrob Hi Tep. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Rob E., - > > Your understanding of the Dhamma is not limited at all, in my sincere opinion (IMSO). Well I am very aware of the enormous amount of detail and specific understandings that I don't have. I will be a little more content if one day I have the time and focus to read the scriptures more thoroughly as well as commentaries. While I am giving my "wish list" I would really like to someday take the time to read a number of commentaries on my favorite suttas - the anapanasati, satipatthana and kayagasati suttas - as well as study the organization of the originals more carefully [and perhaps put them into practice...? :-) ] And it wouldn't hurt to learn some Pali... :-) > Thank you very much for sharing the excellent thought that sums up the relevant points about concentration as the supporting factor for discernment. I appreciate your organization and summary of the points. I find it helpful to re-read them in that form! ... > Congratulations for the spotless understanding of what "higher development" actually means in the majority of the Suttas. However, someone may argue that what you said is the samatha-vipassana method, and that higher development can also be achieved through vipassana bhavana based on just khanika samadhi (momentary concentration) with no jhana. I wish I knew the answer to that! I hope those who argue this way are correct, as many of us don't seem that adept at developing jhana - most especially including myself. It seems to me that the Buddha mentions in a couple of suttas that one of superior faculties may develop vipassana directly and develop right concentration in the "momentary" form as they approach enlightenment, as those who advocate dry insight propose. I think there are a much larger number of suttas in which he proposes the path that includes development of jhana, either before or after a certain level of insight is developed. Although I am uncertain on this subject, it seems to me that the scriptures seem to indicate that only those of superior faculties, rare individuals, such as Bahiya, can attain full enlightenment without jhana at least of a certain level, but I could be wrong! Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Ud 1.10 - Bahiya Sutta: "When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering." Now through this brief Dhamma teaching of the Lord the mind of Bahiya of the Bark-cloth was immediately freed from the taints without grasping. Then the Lord, having instructed Bahiya with this brief instruction, went away. ... "Bhikkhus, Bahiya of the Bark-cloth was a wise man. He practiced according to Dhamma and did not trouble me by disputing about Dhamma. Bhikkhus, Bahiya of the Bark-cloth has attained final Nibbana." ... Where neither water nor yet earth Nor fire nor air gain a foothold, There gleam no stars, no sun sheds light, There shines no moon, yet there no darkness reigns. When a sage, a brahman, has come to know this For himself through his own wisdom, Then he is freed from form and formless. Freed from pleasure and from pain. - - - - - - - - - - - - - #129917 From: "azita" Date: Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sacca Parami gazita2002 Hallo Tadao, > Dear Kun Nina > > Thank you very very much for your explanation with > the long citations. > > The point is very much in accordance with one of the Dhammapada gaathaa: > Not doing any akusala deeds, conducting all types of kusala deeds and > purifying one's mind. This is the teaching of all the Buddhas. > > Mettaaya, > > tadao > P.S. Finding that the weekend sessions at the Foundation are very useful, I will be back to Bangkok in August for a month. azita: I also will be in Bangkok for the month of August, prior going to Vietnam with the group. So looking forward to meeting up with you again and having dhamma discussion at the Foundation. live for understanding, azita #129918 From: "azita" Date: Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:36 am Subject: Re: Yathabhuta.m Pajanati gazita2002 Hallo Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: N: it has to be of the non-ariyan, there must be a beginning. > Understanding of the present reality, whatever it may be. Only after > a long, long time it can be lokuttara. But we should remember the > adze handle. The three fetters are eradicated at the moment of the > Path of the Sotaapanna. But it does not help us now to think about > what is far away. Azita: thank you for this, Nina. Those words 'there must be a beginning' are so very important. If there is no beginning of understanding now then it will never become a power in the future. It seems so clear to me that this has to be - but that is only thinking. The actual development of understanding is far, far more difficult than just thinking about it. However, if there are the right conditions for the arising of understanding now, then that can be a condition for more growth in the future. Live for understanding azita #129919 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:08 pm Subject: Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. thomaslaw03 Hi Ken H, -"...When the Buddha described samsara ..." Did the Buddha describe 'samsara'? Thomas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Thomas, > > ------ > >>KH: > " ... they (the first noble truth) are called samsara." > " ...The conditioned dhammas described by the Buddha are the ultimately real samsara." >> > > > T: Could you show me textual evidence? > -------- > > KH: Textual evidence is not my strong point :-) but no amount of it could settle this matter. > > Your initial question assumed that the texts contained two teachings: one based on the four noble truths and the other based on Hinduism. > > But that can't be right, can it? The Buddha taught only the first of those two. When the Buddha described samsara he was not teaching the Hindu understanding of it; he was teaching dukkha and the cause of dukkha. Everything else he described was either nibbana or the path leading to nibbana. > > Ken H > #129920 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:16 pm Subject: Re: What atta is denied? sarahprocter... Hi Rob E (& Ken H), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > I take the Buddha at his word. When he describes a situation I accept it as a description. When he speaks in clear imperative terms, I take it as an instruction. I think that is a sane way to understand what someone has said. ... S: Regardless - whatever is spoken of refers to conditioned dhammas. So even when an imperative is given as in "don't be heedless!", we know that the Buddha was referring to the urgency and importance of the development of the path, not to an imagined Self that can do anything to realise nibbana. So it all comes down to the understanding when we hear such words. ... >....The source of your understanding that there is no instruction in the Buddha's teaching does not come from the scriptures. It comes from the modern dsg interpretation of the scriptures and it is not backed up by the commentaries. If I am wrong, prove it. ... S: Whatever is read has to be read in the light of the Teachings about the khandhas, about the elements, about especially, such dhammas as anatta. ... > Meanwhile I am waiting for a quote [for over a decade now] that gives scriptural authority to the view that meditation is an expression of self-view and is not part of the path, and that the Noble eight-fold path has nothing to do with how one conducts themselves in everyday life. I am happy to see any quote from the ancient commentaries that will support these views - and I don't mean some oblong quote that has to be re-interpreted to suggest that. ... S: See a collection from a decade of posts under the following headings in Useful Posts: "Meditation in the texts - see also 'Satipatthana & formal sitting', 'Bhavana' & 'Samatha & Vipassana Bhavana', 'Jhana - two meanings', 'Jhana & Nibbana', 'Practice'" Lots and lots of detail about what "meditation in the texts" really is. None of the Teachings are about how "one" does anything in actuality, mere dhammas rolling on. Metta Sarah ====== #129921 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati in the five sense doors? sarahprocter... Hi Tadao, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "tadaomiyamoto@..." wrote: > Sati of Satipatthana does not arise often, but when it arises, it does its function. > This is very much the point, isn't it? ... S: Yes, just a dhamma, not a person, no concern about doorways. For example, if visible object appears, the characteristic is the same whether it appears in the eye-door or mind-door process. ... > I assume that (eventually) for (some of) us the occurrence of sati would become so mundane (i.e., an ordinary thing) that there wouldn't be even a slight idea of inducing it to arise. .... S: One thing for sure - if there is an idea of inducing sati to arise, it's not right understanding, not satipatthana for sure. No idea of self or us or inducing anything when the sacca ~naana (firm intellectual right understanding about the truth of realities) has been developed which leads to satipatthana. Metta Sarah ==== #129922 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:54 pm Subject: Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. kenhowardau Hi Thomas, --- >> KH:...When the Buddha described samsara ... > T: Did the Buddha describe 'samsara'? --- KH: That's all he ever did. He described samsara as it really was – in truth and reality. Ken H #129923 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati in the five sense doors? tadaomiyamot... Hi Sarah For most of us, the discrepancy between the level of understanding and the level of practice is disappointingly obvious. Today, the Foundation broadcasted a very very old talk by Kun Sujin. It sounded like one of the tapes recorded when she was in her 20's. I'm wondering if you know at what age she started giving weekly Dhamma talks for general public. Best Wishes, tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Tadao, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "tadaomiyamoto@" wrote: > > > Sati of Satipatthana does not arise often, but when it arises, it does its function. > > This is very much the point, isn't it? > ... > S: Yes, just a dhamma, not a person, no concern about doorways. For example, if visible object appears, the characteristic is the same whether it appears in the eye-door or mind-door process. > ... > > I assume that (eventually) for (some of) us the occurrence of sati would become so mundane (i.e., an ordinary thing) that there wouldn't be even a slight idea of inducing it to arise. > .... > S: One thing for sure - if there is an idea of inducing sati to arise, it's not right understanding, not satipatthana for sure. No idea of self or us or inducing anything when the sacca ~naana (firm intellectual right understanding about the truth of realities) has been developed which leads to satipatthana. > > Metta > > Sarah > ==== > #129924 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:40 pm Subject: Re: Right Supports for Right Understanding t.sastri Hi Rob E., - What you have described as a future Dhamma-study plan is quite practical : >RE: I will be a little more content if one day I have the time and focus to read the scriptures more thoroughly as well as commentaries ... on my favorite suttas - the anapanasati, satipatthana and kayagasati suttas - as well as study the organization of the originals more carefully [and perhaps put them into practice...?] And it wouldn't hurt to learn some Pali... :-) T: I hope that you will consider letting your friends know how such learning and its application ("practice") benefit you. ......... > >T: ... someone may argue that ... higher development can also be achieved through vipassana bhavana based on just khanika samadhi (momentary concentration) with no jhana. >RE: I wish I knew the answer to that! I hope those who argue this way are correct, as many of us don't seem that adept at developing jhana - most especially including myself. T: I hope so too; but the question has been whether the easy path with no jhana really works to turn someone into at least a Sotapanna; jhana is required for sure for anagami-magga. The Bahiya story (Ud 1.10) does not tell us whether the "wise" Bahiya already had mastered the jhana (at least the first rupa-jhana) before he met the Buddha. Regards, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Tep. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > > Hi Rob E., - > > > Best, > Rob E. > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > Ud 1.10 - Bahiya Sutta: > "When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering." > > Now through this brief Dhamma teaching of the Lord the mind of Bahiya of the Bark-cloth was immediately freed from the taints without grasping. Then the Lord, having instructed Bahiya with this brief instruction, went away. > > ... > > "Bhikkhus, Bahiya of the Bark-cloth was a wise man. He practiced according to Dhamma and did not trouble me by disputing about Dhamma. Bhikkhus, Bahiya of the Bark-cloth has attained final Nibbana." > > ... > > Where neither water nor yet earth > Nor fire nor air gain a foothold, > There gleam no stars, no sun sheds light, > There shines no moon, yet there no darkness reigns. > > When a sage, a brahman, has come to know this > For himself through his own wisdom, > Then he is freed from form and formless. > Freed from pleasure and from pain. > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - > #129925 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:41 pm Subject: Re: It Is An Illusion, a Mirage ... sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > To my question why sun-rise, rose and diamond are not dhammas and "don't have the characteristic of anicca" your answer is: > >S: Because they are not realities. Only realities (paramattha dhammas) have the characteristic of anicca. Sun-rises, roses and diamonds are like 'old times' -just an idea that is thought about and remembered. > > T: The truth of the matter is that all matters are anicca.m, Sarah. ... S: What do you mean by "matters"? "Sabbe sankhara anicca...." Are sunrises, roses and diamonds sankhara? .... >I think, perhaps you confuse 'sanna nimitta' (of roses and diamonds, for example) with 'rupa'? > ------ .... S: Are roses and diamonds rupas? Please elaborate on your comment. ..... > T: I am glad you understood my poorly-worded question. Yes, there still is clinging to some extent in a Sotapanna, since tanha and avijja have not been completely abandoned yet. .... S: Still plenty of clinging, but no wrong view. ..... > >S: There can never be the vijja that abandons self views and conceit or realises nibbana without the development of understanding of present realities. The abandoning of self view means being free of wrong view about present realities. > > T: I'd rather say that there can never be the vijja that abandons self views and conceit to realize nibbana without the full development of Sila, Samadhi, and Panna. Panna of an instructed worldling (who listens to, and considers the Dhamma) is too weak when it is not supported by sila and samadhi. .... S: Right understanding (of the path) is always supported by sila and samadhi - that is the development of adhi sila (higher sila) and adhi citta (higher concentration) which arise together with right understanding and do not develop without it. Metta Sarah ====== #129926 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:48 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma-anupassana sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > Another point to ponder! ... S: Good! ... > > >That's why the anupassana of the ayatanas goes like this [SN 35.99]: He discerns, > as it actually is present, that 'The eye is inconstant'... > [Cakkhu.m aniccanti yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati] > > 'Forms are inconstant'... [ruupaa aniccaati yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati] > > 'Eye-consciousness is inconstant'... [cakkhuvi��aa.na.m aniccanti yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati] > > and so on and so forth. > ... > S: There has to be the 'coming together' of these ayatanas, but only one appears at any time. > > How do they come together? What puts them together? .... S: Many conditions. On account of the impact of visible objects (forms) on eye-sense (eye), there is the arising of eye-consciousness. It depends on past kamma to experience visible object which has arisen already. The visible object itself depends on citta, kamma, temperature or nutriment for its arising. ..... > > Btw I have observed that some people do not like be questioned, or even to engage in a long and continuing discussion. .... S: It doesn't matter at all. Different accumulations, that's all. At the time of making any observations, the thinking can be known as a reality. The path always comes back to the citta now! Metta Sarah ===== #129927 From: han tun Date: Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:48 pm Subject: What is sa.msaara? hantun1 Dear Friends, What is sa.msaara? In "The Round of Rebirth" Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote about sa.msaara. The Round of Rebirth (samsara) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca1/samsara.html --------------- As regards textual reference, please see: SN 15.126 Assu sutta (Tears) Saavatthiya.m viharati. "anamataggoya.m, bhikkhave, sa.msaaro. Pubbaa ko.ti na pa~n~naayati avijjaaniivara.naana.m sattaana.m ta.nhaasa.myojanaana.m sandhaavata.m sa.msarata.m. At Saavatthi. "Bhikkhus, this sa.msaara is without discoverable beginning. A first point is not discerned of beings roaming and wandering on hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving. (translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi) The word Sa.msaara comes from the words [sa.msaaro] and [sa.msarata.m] spoken by the Buddha himself. with metta, Han #129928 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sacca Parami tadaomiyamot... Dear Azita It's nice to have opportunities to see again in Bangkok. Take care, tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "azita" wrote: > > Hallo Tadao, > > > > Dear Kun Nina > > > > Thank you very very much for your explanation with > > the long citations. > > > > The point is very much in accordance with one of the Dhammapada gaathaa: > > Not doing any akusala deeds, conducting all types of kusala deeds and > > purifying one's mind. This is the teaching of all the Buddhas. > > > > Mettaaya, > > > > tadao > > P.S. Finding that the weekend sessions at the Foundation are very useful, I will be back to Bangkok in August for a month. > > azita: I also will be in Bangkok for the month of August, prior going to Vietnam with the group. So looking forward to meeting up with you again and having dhamma discussion at the Foundation. > > live for understanding, > azita > #129929 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:41 pm Subject: Re: It Is An Illusion, a Mirage ... t.sastri Hello Sarah, - If there are such things as "friendly debate" and "peaceful argument", our discussion must be one of them! > >T: The truth of the matter is that all matters are anicca.m, Sarah. >S: What do you mean by "matters"? "Sabbe sankhara anicca...." Are sunrises, roses and diamonds sankhara? Are roses and diamonds rupas? Please elaborate on your comment. T: By rúpa I mean the following: form; figure; image; object of the eye; a material composition [PTS Pali Dictionary]. Other meanings: corporeality; materiality; matter (Vism); the elements and corporeal phenomena derived from them (bhutupadayadhamma). But my concern is not the Abhidhamma meaning of rúpa as the physical base (vatthu) of consciousness . Sunrises, roses and diamonds are forms visible to the eye. Roses and diamonds ("earth") are matter in the dhatu sense. Sun-rises are just visible object. And who can argue that all these are anicca.m, since they arise and pass away sooner or later? Even mountains and oceans, or even the cosmos, are impermanent! .... > >T: Panna of an instructed worldling (who listens to, and considers the Dhamma) is too weak when it is not supported by sila and samadhi. >S: Right understanding (of the path) is always supported by sila and samadhi -that is the development of adhi sila (higher sila) and adhi citta (higher concentration) which arise together with right understanding and do not develop without it. T: I agree with what you said above. But I was discussing weak understanding in the worldlings, (including instructed, intellectual ones as well), not the right understanding of the path. Thanks, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > To my question why sun-rise, rose and diamond are not dhammas and "don't have the characteristic of anicca" your answer is: > > >S: Because they are not realities. Only realities (paramattha dhammas) have the characteristic of anicca. Sun-rises, roses and diamonds are like 'old times' -just an idea that is thought about and remembered. > > > > T: The truth of the matter is that all matters are anicca.m, Sarah. > ... > S: What do you mean by "matters"? > > "Sabbe sankhara anicca...." Are sunrises, roses and diamonds sankhara? > .... > #129930 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:48 pm Subject: Re: It Is An Illusion, a Mirage ... tadaomiyamot... Dear Tep My way of life has changed quite drastically before visiting Bangkok and after coming back from there in March. Basically, I could see the danger of accumulating akusala more clearly than I used to. I was able to understand more clearly that akusala is akusala, and it cannot be kusala regardless how nice/pleasant/enjoyable it is. I used to think that as long as I developed sati and panna, it's OK to enjoy pleasant things in life, such as nice foods. But it is a kind of excuse, isn't it? Basically, (due possibly to my inclination,) the life after the trip is more like that of a monk, which I experienced in my 20's. I do not think the above description is clear and may help you. But the point is that akusala is akusala, any of which would not be helpful for developing sati and panna. Best wishes, tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Tadao - > > Tell me more about what you recently have learnt about 'sacca' ! > It is very true that indulgence in anything doesn't help, it only hurts. But one who is indulging does not know indulgence the way it really is. > > Thanks, > Tep > === > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "tadaomiyamoto@" wrote: > > > > Dear Tep and Sarah > > > > Even monks have a lot of lobha; an attachment to tranquility, to freedom of time, to accumulation of the (mere) knowledge of Dhamma, etc. > > > > We layfollowers cannot give up everything we have, and live like a monk. > > However we can appreciate whatever we have and make use of them "wisely." > > Appreciation is OK but "indulgence" is not. "Indulgence" in things/people would not help us so much to develop sati and panna. ("Indulgence is very much against the spirit of SACCA" is one thing I've learnt very recently.) > > > > tadao > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Tep, > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > > > > > >S: Just like old times..... > > > > T: When 'sanna' ceases, old times also cease. :-) > > > ... > > > S: Yes, well said.... just a thought, a memory at a moment of thinking...:-) > > > .... > > > > > > > >S: However, the point was just that sun-rises, roses and diamonds are not dhammas and don't have the characteristic of anicca. > > > > T: Why not? > > > ... > > > S: Because they are not realities. Only realities (paramattha dhammas) have the characteristic of anicca. Sun-rises, roses and diamonds are like 'old times' - just an idea that is thought about and remembered. > > > ... > > > > >S: Appreciating that only visible object is seen and only tangible object is touched doesn't mean one has to give away all material goods (unless one becomes a monk) or that there is no more clinging to diamonds! > > > > T: When you keep things, there is always the thought, 'this is mine'. When there is the thought 'my diamonds', how come there is no clinging? > > > .... > > > S: It depends on the citta from moment to moment. A sotapanna may have a diamond, but no wrong view of any self or anything belonging to self. Someone may give away their diamond and still have clinging. > > > > ........... > > > > > > > > > Be free > > > > >S: Being free of wrong view about present realities is most precious of all, don't you think? > > > > T: True knowledge (vijja) that abandons self views and conceit(maana) is more precious, I think. The most precious of all is Nibbana. > > > .... > > > S: There can never be the vijja that abandons self views and conceit or realises nibbana without the development of understanding of present realities. The abandoning of self view means being free of wrong view about present realities. > > > > > > Metta > > > > > > Sarah > > > ===== > > > > > > #129931 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:08 am Subject: Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. tadaomiyamot... Dear Thomas The following are from Dhammapada. 153. Anekajati sa?sara? sandhavissa? anibbisa? Gahakaraka? gavesanto dukkha jati punappuna?. 154. Gahakaraka di??ho'si puna geha? na kahasi Sabba te phasuka bhagga gahakau?a? visa?khita? Visa?kharagata? citta? ta?hana? khayamajjhaga. (You may consult any English transition.) It is quite likely that the Buddha uttered these verses just after his Enlightenment; and, concerning your question, one won't fail to see that (the notion of) Enlightenment, which encompasses all the essential Buddhist doctrines and (the notion of) Sansaara are closely tied together. Best wishes, tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > > Hi Dhamma friends, > > The term, samsara (`the continuous cycle of death and rebirth'), is not found in the main teachings of the Buddha, such as the four noble truths, conditioned arising (patccasamuppada), and the three characteristics (in compounded things). Thus, samsara does not belong to the main teachings of Buddhism; it in fact belongs to Hinduism. > > Any arguments? > > Thomas Law > #129932 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:12 am Subject: Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. tadaomiyamot... Hi Thomas The following is an English translation of the verses, which I copied from the Internet. Verse 153: I, who have been seeking the builder of this house (body), failing to attain Enlightenment (Bodhi nana or Sabbannuta nana) which would enable me to find him, have wandered through innumerable births in samsara. To be born again and again is, indeed, dukkha! Verse 154: Oh house-builder! You are seen, you shall build no house (for me) again. All your rafters are broken, your roof-tree is destroyed. My mind has reached the unconditioned (i.e., Nibbana); the end of craving (Arahatta Phala) has been attained. tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "tadaomiyamoto@..." wrote: > > Dear Thomas > > The following are from Dhammapada. > > 153. Anekajati sa?sara? sandhavissa? anibbisa? > Gahakaraka? gavesanto dukkha jati punappuna?. > > 154. Gahakaraka di??ho'si puna geha? na kahasi > Sabba te phasuka bhagga gahakau?a? visa?khita? > Visa?kharagata? citta? ta?hana? khayamajjhaga. > > (You may consult any English transition.) > > It is quite likely that the Buddha uttered these verses just after his > Enlightenment; and, concerning your question, one won't fail > to see that (the notion of) Enlightenment, which encompasses all the > essential Buddhist doctrines and (the notion of) Sansaara are closely tied together. > > Best wishes, > > tadao > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > > > > Hi Dhamma friends, > > > > The term, samsara (`the continuous cycle of death and rebirth'), is not found in the main teachings of the Buddha, such as the four noble truths, conditioned arising (patccasamuppada), and the three characteristics (in compounded things). Thus, samsara does not belong to the main teachings of Buddhism; it in fact belongs to Hinduism. > > > > Any arguments? > > > > Thomas Law > > > #129933 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:25 am Subject: Re: What is sa.msaara? tadaomiyamot... Dear Han "San" (again and again, endlessly) and "sarati" (flow); hence it is called sansaara. At any rate, the metaphor I love most concerning the length of sansaara is the one with a big rock and a feather. When one brushes the rock with the father once in every one hundred years, the rock would eventually disappear due to the wear brought about by the strokes of the feather. The time required for the disappearance of the rock can be though as being equivalent of one round of sansaara. The point is that its length is unfathomable. Best Wishes, tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Friends, >  > What is sa.msaara? >  > In "The Round of Rebirth" Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote about sa.msaara. >  > The Round of Rebirth (samsara) > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca1/samsara.html >  > --------------- >  > As regards textual reference, please see: >  > SN 15.126 Assu sutta (Tears) >  > Saavatthiya.m viharati. "anamataggoya.m, bhikkhave, sa.msaaro. Pubbaa ko.ti na pa~n~naayati avijjaaniivara.naana.m sattaana.m ta.nhaasa.myojanaana.m sandhaavata.m sa.msarata.m. >  > At Saavatthi. "Bhikkhus, this sa.msaara is without discoverable beginning. A first point is not discerned of beings roaming and wandering on hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving. > (translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi) >  > The word Sa.msaara comes from the words [sa.msaaro] and [sa.msarata.m] spoken by the Buddha himself. >  > with metta, > Han > > > #129934 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:46 am Subject: Re: It Is An Illusion, a Mirage ... t.sastri Dear Tadao, - Thanks for answering my question, and I also like your reply. Yes, it is an excuse to say/think it's allright to enjoy/indulge in pleasurable things like nice/tasty foods (and whiskey, wines), since there is no discernment on any of the three characteristics in that indulging moment. As the consequence, there are neither right mindfulness nor right understanding, and thus abandonment of clinging and cessation of dukkha is postponed again. It is like the journey of a pitiful snail to cross over a tall wall. It sometimes climbs up one foot, but then the next moment it may drop back down more than one foot. So when will this snail get to cross over to "the other side" of the wall? >Tadao: Basically, (due possibly to my inclination,) the life after the trip is more like that of a monk, which I experienced in my 20's. T: Interesting! What did you learn as a monk (in your 20's)? >Tadao: But the point is that akusala is akusala, any of which would not be helpful for developing sati and panna. T: And it is a good one. Sincerely, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "tadaomiyamoto@..." wrote: > > Dear Tep > > My way of life has changed quite drastically before visiting Bangkok and after > coming back from there in March. > > Basically, I could see the danger of accumulating akusala more clearly than I used to. > > I was able to understand more clearly that akusala is akusala, and it cannot be kusala regardless how nice/pleasant/enjoyable it is. > > I used to think that as long as I developed sati and panna, it's OK to enjoy > pleasant things in life, such as nice foods. But it is a kind of excuse, isn't it? > > Basically, (due possibly to my inclination,) the life after the trip is more like that of a monk, > which I experienced in my 20's. > > I do not think the above description is clear and may help you. > > But the point is that akusala is akusala, any of which would not be helpful for developing sati and panna. > > Best wishes, > > tadao > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > > Dear Tadao - > > > > Tell me more about what you recently have learnt about 'sacca' ! > > It is very true that indulgence in anything doesn't help, it only hurts. But one who is indulging does not know indulgence the way it really is. > > > > Thanks, > > Tep > > === #129935 From: han tun Date: Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. hantun1 Dear Tadao, I am glad you have quoted the two verses from Dhammapada. The following is the Paa.li text of the two verses you have kindly quoted. Verse 153. Anekajaati sa.msaara.m, sandhaavissa.m anibbisa.m. Gahakaaraka.m gavesanto, dukkhaa jaati punappuna.m. Verse 154. Gahakaaraka di.t.thosi, puna geha.m na kaahasi; Sabbaa te phaasukaa bhaggaa, gahakuu.ta.m visa"nkhata.m; Visa"nkhaaragata.m citta.m, ta.nhaana.m khayamajjhagaa. with metta, Han From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 9:12 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. Hi Thomas The following is an English translation of the verses, which I copied from the Internet. Verse 153: I, who have been seeking the builder of this house (body), failing to attain Enlightenment (Bodhi nana or Sabbannuta nana) which would enable me to find him, have wandered through innumerable births in samsara. To be born again and again is, indeed, dukkha! Verse 154: Oh house-builder! You are seen, you shall build no house (for me) again. All your rafters are broken, your roof-tree is destroyed. My mind has reached the unconditioned (i.e., Nibbana); the end of craving (Arahatta Phala) has been attained. tadao #129936 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:19 am Subject: Re: It Is An Illusion, a Mirage ... t.sastri Hi Sarah (others), - My typing is not perfect! I found an error in this sentence: "And who can argue that all these are anicca.m, since they arise and pass away sooner or later?" It should be changed to this : And who can deny that all these are anicca.m, since they arise and pass away sooner or later? By the way, any conditioned dhamma is sankhara (all sankhata dhammas are sankhara!). It is funny. I do not doubt that fact, but when someone questions me, then the confidence decreases! Lawyers know how to exploit that human's weakness. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hello Sarah, - > > If there are such things as "friendly debate" and "peaceful argument", our discussion must be one of them! > > > >T: The truth of the matter is that all matters are anicca.m, Sarah. > >S: What do you mean by "matters"? "Sabbe sankhara anicca...." Are sunrises, roses and diamonds sankhara? Are roses and diamonds rupas? Please elaborate on your comment. > > T: By rúpa I mean the following: form; figure; image; object of the eye; a material composition [PTS Pali Dictionary]. Other meanings: corporeality; materiality; matter (Vism); the elements and corporeal phenomena derived from them (bhutupadayadhamma). But my concern is not the Abhidhamma meaning of rúpa as the physical base (vatthu) of consciousness . > > Sunrises, roses and diamonds are forms visible to the eye. Roses and diamonds ("earth") are matter in the dhatu sense. Sun-rises are just visible object. And who can argue that all these are anicca.m, since they arise and pass away sooner or later? Even mountains and oceans, or even the cosmos, are impermanent! > .... > > > >T: Panna of an instructed worldling (who listens to, and considers the Dhamma) is too weak when it is not supported by sila and samadhi. > >S: Right understanding (of the path) is always supported by sila and samadhi -that is the development of adhi sila (higher sila) and adhi citta (higher concentration) which arise together with right understanding and do not develop without it. > > T: I agree with what you said above. But I was discussing weak understanding in the worldlings, (including instructed, intellectual ones as well), not the right understanding of the path. > > Thanks, > Tep > === > #129937 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:36 pm Subject: Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. thomaslaw03 Dear Tadao, Han Thank you very much for the information. The text indicates that samsara is linked to dukkha. Sincerely, Thomas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Tadao, > > I am glad you have quoted the two verses from Dhammapada. > The following is the Paa.li text of the two verses you have kindly quoted. > > Verse 153. Anekajaati sa.msaara.m, > sandhaavissa.m anibbisa.m. > Gahakaaraka.m gavesanto, > dukkhaa jaati punappuna.m. > > Verse 154. Gahakaaraka di.t.thosi, > puna geha.m na kaahasi; > Sabbaa te phaasukaa bhaggaa, > gahakuu.ta.m visa"nkhata.m; > Visa"nkhaaragata.m citta.m, > ta.nhaana.m khayamajjhagaa. > > with metta, > Han > > > From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 9:12 PM > Subject: [dsg] Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. > > > Hi Thomas > > The following is an English translation of the verses, which I copied from the Internet. > > Verse 153: I, who have been seeking the builder of this house (body), failing to attain Enlightenment (Bodhi nana or Sabbannuta nana) which would enable me to find him, have wandered through innumerable births in samsara. To be born again and again is, indeed, dukkha! > > Verse 154: Oh house-builder! You are seen, you shall build no house (for me) again. All your rafters are broken, your roof-tree is destroyed. My mind has reached the unconditioned (i.e., Nibbana); the end of craving (Arahatta Phala) has been attained. > > tadao > > > #129938 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Apr 13, 2013 7:42 pm Subject: Re: It Is An Illusion, a Mirage ... sarahprocter... Hi Tep, Thx for your comments and further discussion. As you know, there are 29 rupas. 7 of these (only) appear through the sense doors: visible object, sound, smell, taste and 3 tangible objects - hardness/softness, temperature and motion. So whether we think we see a sunrise, a diamond, a rose or a person, in fact only visible object is ever seen. Whether we think we touch a diamond or a head or a wall, only hardness or temperature is felt. Later there are thoughts and ideas about diamonds and roses, but these are just concepts or ideas, not realities, not rupas. When the Buddha taught "sabbe sankhara anicca", sankhara refers to conditioned realities, i.e. namas and rupas or the 5 khandhas. Sankhara does not refer to concepts or ideas, such as people, diamonds and rainbows. Please let me know if you disagree with this. **** On the other point: > > >T: Panna of an instructed worldling (who listens to, and considers the Dhamma) is too weak when it is not supported by sila and samadhi. > >S: Right understanding (of the path) is always supported by sila and samadhi -that is the development of adhi sila (higher sila) and adhi citta (higher concentration) which arise together with right understanding and do not develop without it. > > T: I agree with what you said above. But I was discussing weak understanding in the worldlings, (including instructed, intellectual ones as well), not the right understanding of the path. .... S: Even when it is weak, intellectual right understanding is accompanied by right concentration. Concentration (ekaggata cetasika) arises with every citta. So if the citta is wholesome, it is right, 'samma' samadhi. There are many kinds and levels of sila. At any moment of kusala, sati, right mindfulness, arises and there is 'guarding' from akusala, indriya samvara sila, guarding of the faculties. (See Vism. I, 42) Metta Sarah ===== #129939 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Apr 13, 2013 7:45 pm Subject: Re: It Is An Illusion, a Mirage ... sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > By the way, any conditioned dhamma is sankhara (all sankhata dhammas are sankhara!). ... S: So what are dhamma? Are sunrises, diamonds, roses and people 'dhamma' or are they concepts, ideas about what is seen, heard and touched? Metta Sarah ===== #129940 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Sat Apr 13, 2013 8:35 pm Subject: Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. tadaomiyamot... Dear Thomas For most of us, it's easy to say that our existence is non-satisfactory; hence it is dukkha. But seeing its real characteristic is not an easy task, since, it requires pannaa of high(er) levels. At least I myself is concerned, when things in my life do not go well, then I think that my existence is dukkha. Contrastively, when things go nicely, then, I easily forget the true nature of dukkha. Obviously, it's not a sincere attitude, and is not accordance with the Buddha's teaching, which is nothing but the cultivation of detachment. Best wishes, tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > > Dear Tadao, Han > > Thank you very much for the information. The text indicates that samsara is linked to dukkha. > > Sincerely, > > Thomas > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > > > Dear Tadao, > >  > > I am glad you have quoted the two verses from Dhammapada. > > The following is the Paa.li text of the two verses you have kindly quoted. > >  > > Verse 153. Anekajaati sa.msaara.m, > > sandhaavissa.m anibbisa.m. > > Gahakaaraka.m gavesanto, > > dukkhaa jaati punappuna.m. > >  > > Verse 154. Gahakaaraka di.t.thosi, > > puna geha.m na kaahasi; > > Sabbaa te phaasukaa bhaggaa, > > gahakuu.ta.m visa"nkhata.m; > > Visa"nkhaaragata.m citta.m, > > ta.nhaana.m khayamajjhagaa. > >  > > with metta, > > Han > > > > > > From: "tadaomiyamoto@" > > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 9:12 PM > > Subject: [dsg] Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. > > > >  > > Hi Thomas > > > > The following is an English translation of the verses, which I copied from the Internet. > > > > Verse 153: I, who have been seeking the builder of this house (body), failing to attain Enlightenment (Bodhi nana or Sabbannuta nana) which would enable me to find him, have wandered through innumerable births in samsara. To be born again and again is, indeed, dukkha! > > > > Verse 154: Oh house-builder! You are seen, you shall build no house (for me) again. All your rafters are broken, your roof-tree is destroyed. My mind has reached the unconditioned (i.e., Nibbana); the end of craving (Arahatta Phala) has been attained. > > > > tadao > > > > > > > #129941 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:50 pm Subject: Re: It Is An Illusion, a Mirage ... upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Tep) - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > By the way, any conditioned dhamma is sankhara (all sankhata dhammas are sankhara!). > ... > > S: So what are dhamma? Are sunrises, diamonds, roses and people 'dhamma' or are they concepts, ideas about what is seen, heard and touched? ------------------------------ HCW: "Sunrises, diamonds, roses and people" are mental constructs,for sure. But they are perceived and not just randomly thought of. We can and do, and properly so, distinguish among them, and that is not a random matter but is based on the complexly interrelated 5-sense-door qualities/dhammas that are their basis. To say that they are (just) ideas is, IMO, to underestimate part of the reason that they have such a hold on us. (My opinion.) ------------------------------ > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > ================================ With metta, Howard P. S. The following includes part of a sentence referring to mental constructs that is purposely set off by me with arrows: Mundane Wrong View /And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. ->There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives<- who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view./ (From the Maha-Cattarisaka Sutta) #129942 From: "Nina van Gorkom" Date: Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:20 pm Subject: (No subject) nilovg Dear Ms Proctor, This is to inform you that my aunt Nina broke her hip Thursday and has been operated yesterday. She Will stay in bronovo hospital in THE Hague for the next few days. She is doing allright. Kind regards Bas Cammelbeeck #129943 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:12 pm Subject: Nina Broke Her Hip! t.sastri Hi Bas, - Thank you so much for informing us. I am very sorry to know that your aunt is hospitalized. Please convey my condolences to her. Regards, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Nina van Gorkom" wrote: > > Dear Ms Proctor, > > This is to inform you that my aunt Nina broke her hip Thursday and has been operated yesterday. She Will stay in bronovo hospital in THE Hague for the next few days. > > She is doing allright. > > Kind regards > > Bas Cammelbeeck > #129944 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:37 pm Subject: Nina truth_aerator I wish Nina speedy and full recovery, With best wishes, Alex #129945 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:51 pm Subject: Nina's accident sarahprocter... Dear Friends, [Bas Camelbeeck, thank you for informing us about your aunt - very helpful.] Jon and I have just made a quick call to Nina at the hospital. She sounds in good spirits in spite of a lot of pain following the surgery which seems to have gone well. Apparently she'd been visiting Lodewijk's grave site and was walking to the tramway when she fell. People helped and an ambulance took her to hospital. After a few days in hospital, she will go to a rehabilitation centre, probably for a few weeks. She's already started the exercises they've given her. I'm sure she's having excellent treatment and care. She told us how she's already told everyone at the hospital that she's going to Thailand and Vietnam in August! Very determined about this. We also exchanged a few words about 'this moment', understanding now and how we never know what will happen next. What's happening now will be yesterday tomorrow.... Just different experiences through different sense doors with lots of thinking in between. She asked us to send her best wishes to everyone. She may not have computer access for quite some time. [As it happens, Jon had quite a nasty fall last week, cut his head and hurt his arm - couldn't move. Fortunately, no bones were broken in his case. We never know what kamma has in store!] Metta Sarah > This is to inform you that my aunt Nina broke her hip Thursday and has been operated yesterday. She Will stay in bronovo hospital in THE Hague for the next few days. ====== #129946 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:10 am Subject: Re: Nina's accident tadaomiyamot... Hi Sarah Yes, we do not know what happens next moment. ANY accident happens without any warning in a split second. It's nice to hear that Kun Nina is very spirited; I have no doubt that she will fully recover by the time she will visit Thailand/Vietnam. I hope that Jonothan, too, recover from his inquiry promptly. Take care, tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > [Bas Camelbeeck, thank you for informing us about your aunt - very helpful.] > > Jon and I have just made a quick call to Nina at the hospital. She sounds in good spirits in spite of a lot of pain following the surgery which seems to have gone well. > > Apparently she'd been visiting Lodewijk's grave site and was walking to the tramway when she fell. People helped and an ambulance took her to hospital. After a few days in hospital, she will go to a rehabilitation centre, probably for a few weeks. She's already started the exercises they've given her. I'm sure she's having excellent treatment and care. > > She told us how she's already told everyone at the hospital that she's going to Thailand and Vietnam in August! Very determined about this. > > We also exchanged a few words about 'this moment', understanding now and how we never know what will happen next. What's happening now will be yesterday tomorrow.... Just different experiences through different sense doors with lots of thinking in between. > > She asked us to send her best wishes to everyone. She may not have computer access for quite some time. > > [As it happens, Jon had quite a nasty fall last week, cut his head and hurt his arm - couldn't move. Fortunately, no bones were broken in his case. We never know what kamma has in store!] > > Metta > > Sarah > > > This is to inform you that my aunt Nina broke her hip Thursday and has been operated yesterday. She Will stay in bronovo hospital in THE Hague for the next few days. > ====== > #129947 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:40 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. tadaomiyamot... Dear Han Thank you very much. tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Tadao, >  > I am glad you have quoted the two verses from Dhammapada. > The following is the Paa.li text of the two verses you have kindly quoted. >  > Verse 153. Anekajaati sa.msaara.m, > sandhaavissa.m anibbisa.m. > Gahakaaraka.m gavesanto, > dukkhaa jaati punappuna.m. >  > Verse 154. Gahakaaraka di.t.thosi, > puna geha.m na kaahasi; > Sabbaa te phaasukaa bhaggaa, > gahakuu.ta.m visa"nkhata.m; > Visa"nkhaaragata.m citta.m, > ta.nhaana.m khayamajjhagaa. >  > with metta, > Han > > > From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 9:12 PM > Subject: [dsg] Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. > >  > Hi Thomas > > The following is an English translation of the verses, which I copied from the Internet. > > Verse 153: I, who have been seeking the builder of this house (body), failing to attain Enlightenment (Bodhi nana or Sabbannuta nana) which would enable me to find him, have wandered through innumerable births in samsara. To be born again and again is, indeed, dukkha! > > Verse 154: Oh house-builder! You are seen, you shall build no house (for me) again. All your rafters are broken, your roof-tree is destroyed. My mind has reached the unconditioned (i.e., Nibbana); the end of craving (Arahatta Phala) has been attained. > > tadao > > > #129948 From: "sukinderpal narula" Date: Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:40 am Subject: Re: Nina's accident sukinderpal Dear Nina and Jon, Sorry to hear about the accidents. Hope that you both mend soon and experience minimum bodily and mental pain. Metta, Sukin #129949 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:58 am Subject: Re: It Is An Illusion, a Mirage ... t.sastri Hi Sarah (Howard), - > >Tep: By the way, any conditioned dhamma is sankhara (all sankhata dhammas are sankhara!). >S: So what are dhamma? T: A research finding about what 'dhamma' means is given below. >S: Are sunrises, diamonds, roses and people 'dhamma' or are they concepts, ideas about what is seen, heard and touched? T: They are concepts in the Abhidhamma sense; yet, each of them is legitimate mind object (external ayatana). As such they are dhamma in the looser sense of “something known or thought ofâ€. They also possessed of the three characteristics that can be contemplated. ........... Some Research Findings: 1) Chasu ajjhattika bahiresu ayatanesu: the eye, the ear, the nose, the tongue, the body and the mind are the six internal sense-bases, and material form, mind, smell, tastes, tactual object, and mental object are the six external sense-bases. This mental object, object of consciousness, is known as 'dhamma' in the Suttas. 2) Vism VII, note 1: "Roughly dhamma = what-can-be-remembered or what-can-be-borne-in-mind (dháretabba) as kamma = what-can-be-done (kátabba). The following two principal (and overlapping) senses are involved here: (i) the Law as taught, and (ii) objects of consciousness. (i) In the first case the word has either been left untranslated as “Dhamma†or “dhamma†or it has been tendered as “Law†or “law.†... (ii) In the second case the word in its looser sense of “something known or thought of†has either been left untranslated as “dhamma†or rendered by “state†(more rarely by “thing†or “phenomenonâ€), while in its technical sense as one of the twelve bases or eighteen elements “mental object†and “mental datum†have been used." [End of quote] 3) Maha-hatthipadopama Sutta: "Now there comes a time, friends, when the external liquid property is provoked,[2] and at that time the external earth property vanishes. So when even in the external earth property â€" so vast â€" inconstancy will be discerned, destructibility will be discerned, a tendency to decay will be discerned, changeability will be discerned, then what in this short-lasting body, sustained by clinging, is 'I' or 'mine' or 'what I am'? It has here only a 'no.' ................ Be well, Tep === #129950 From: Tambach Date: Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nina's accident tambach Dear Nina and John, We wish both of you quick recovery with the least bodily and mental suffering possible. Thanks Sarah for keeping us posted. Metta from your Vietnamese friends. sarah wrote: #129951 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:16 am Subject: Re: It Is An Illusion, a Mirage ... t.sastri Hi Sarah, - I appreciate your reviewing of the 'rupa' and 'sankhara' definitions for me. No one is too old to learn! >Sarah: there are 29 rupas. 7 of these (only) appear through the sense doors ... we think we see a sunrise, a diamond, a rose or a person, in fact only visible object is ever seen... Later there are thoughts and ideas about diamonds and roses, but these are just concepts or ideas, not realities, not rupas. T: When you switch off the conventional language and switch on the language of abstract ultimate realities (that are "seen" by ariyans), it does not help me to see the impermanence characteristic of these mind objects. Let me give one example : kaya-anupassanai meditation on the body parts (e.g., head hair, body hair, teeth, nails, skin) is not based on the abstract ultimate reality concepts. [MN 10: a monk reflects on this very body from the soles of the feet on up, from the crown of the head on down, surrounded by skin and full of various kinds of unclean things: 'In this body there are head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, ..., saliva, mucus, fluid in the joints, urine.' In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or focused externally... unsustained by anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself.] ........... >Sarah: When the Buddha taught "sabbe sankhara anicca", sankhara refers to conditioned realities, i.e. namas and rupas or the 5 khandhas. Sankhara does not refer to concepts or ideas, such as people, diamonds and rainbows. Please let me know if you disagree with this. T: Yes and no. In the Suttas, using the conventional language, it is clear that a conditioned dhamma --sankhata dhamma, either internal or external, is sankhara. Thus people, roses, diamonds, rainbows, and all natural objects (e.g. mountains, oceans) or man-made objects are sankhara dhamma, although they are not sankhara khandha (mental formation). Let me quote Bhikkhu Bodhi in Anicca Vata Sankhara as follows: "The third major domain in which the word sankhara occurs is as a designation for all conditioned things. In this context the word has a passive derivation, denoting whatever is formed by a combination of conditions; whatever is conditioned, constructed, or compounded. In this sense it might be rendered simply "formations," without the qualifying adjective. As bare formations, sankharas include all five aggregates, not just the fourth. The term also includes external objects and situations such as mountains, fields, and forests; towns and cities; food and drink; jewelry, cars, and computers." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/bps-essay_43.html .......... In MN 10 the Buddha teaches dhamma-anupassana of rupa as follows: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its passing away'. ['Iti ruupa.m, iti ruupassa samudayo, iti ruupassa attha"ngamo'.] It is not clear to me how to contemplate a rupa --as an ultimate reality-- through the dhamma-anupassana, Sarah. Can you show me how? I will reply to the second part of your post in a next message. Be well & happy, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > Thx for your comments and further discussion. > > **** > On the other point: > > > > >T: Panna of an instructed worldling (who listens to, and considers the Dhamma) is too weak when it is not supported by sila and samadhi. > > >S: Right understanding (of the path) is always supported by sila and samadhi -that is the development of adhi sila (higher sila) and adhi citta (higher concentration) which arise together with right understanding and do not develop without it. > > > > T: I agree with what you said above. But I was discussing weak understanding in the worldlings, (including instructed, intellectual ones as well), not the right understanding of the path. > .... > S: Even when it is weak, intellectual right understanding is accompanied by right concentration. Concentration (ekaggata cetasika) arises with every citta. So if the citta is wholesome, it is right, 'samma' samadhi. There are many kinds and levels of sila. At any moment of kusala, sati, right mindfulness, arises and there is 'guarding' from akusala, indriya samvara sila, guarding of the faculties. (See Vism. I, 42) > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > #129952 From: "connie" Date: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:43 am Subject: Re: It Is An Illusion, a Mirage ... nichiconn Hi Tep, > > >Sarah: there are 29 rupas > c: typo, make that 28. > T: When you switch off the conventional language and switch on the language of abstract ultimate realities (that are "seen" by ariyans), it does not help me to see the impermanence characteristic of these mind objects. c: backwards. warmth, etc, is not abstract; we are. peace, connie #129953 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:36 am Subject: Re: Nina upasaka_howard Hi, Alex & all --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > I wish Nina speedy and full recovery, ---------------------------- HCW: As do I! Unhappy news. I have confidence that Nina will face this with courage. --------------------------- > > > With best wishes, > > Alex > ======================= With metta, Howard #129954 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:10 am Subject: Re: It Is An Illusion, a Mirage ... t.sastri Hello Connie, - It was long time ago when we (two abstracts) communicate via the Internet! How well have "you" been? Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > > Hi Tep, > > > > >Sarah: there are 29 rupas > > > > c: typo, make that 28. > > > T: When you switch off the conventional language and switch on the language of abstract ultimate realities (that are "seen" by ariyans), it does not help me to see the impermanence characteristic of these mind objects. > > c: backwards. warmth, etc, is not abstract; we are. > peace, > connie > #129955 From: han tun Date: Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nina's accident hantun1 Dear Sarah,  Thank you very much for the latest information about Nina. I wish her speedy recovery.  with metta, Han From: sarah To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 8:51 PM Subject: [dsg] Nina's accident  Dear Friends, [Bas Camelbeeck, thank you for informing us about your aunt - very helpful.] Jon and I have just made a quick call to Nina at the hospital. She sounds in good spirits in spite of a lot of pain following the surgery which seems to have gone well. Apparently she'd been visiting Lodewijk's grave site and was walking to the tramway when she fell. People helped and an ambulance took her to hospital. After a few days in hospital, she will go to a rehabilitation centre, probably for a few weeks. She's already started the exercises they've given her. I'm sure she's having excellent treatment and care. She told us how she's already told everyone at the hospital that she's going to Thailand and Vietnam in August! Very determined about this. We also exchanged a few words about 'this moment', understanding now and how we never know what will happen next. What's happening now will be yesterday tomorrow.... Just different experiences through different sense doors with lots of thinking in between. She asked us to send her best wishes to everyone. She may not have computer access for quite some time. [As it happens, Jon had quite a nasty fall last week, cut his head and hurt his arm - couldn't move. Fortunately, no bones were broken in his case. We never know what kamma has in store!] Metta Sarah > This is to inform you that my aunt Nina broke her hip Thursday and has been operated yesterday. She Will stay in bronovo hospital in THE Hague for the next few days. ====== #129956 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:30 am Subject: Re: It Is An Illusion, a Mirage ... tadaomiyamot... Hi Tep I'm not an expert in the field. But as far as I remember, there are six meanings assigned to Dhamma/Dharma, and the most basic meaning is "law". The Pali definition of Dhamma(Dharma), whose root is "dhar (to hold)" is "lokag dharetii ti dhammo" (it is called "law", since it holds the world (i.e., our society)). If there is no law, our society would disintegrate. Best wishes, tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi Sarah (Howard), - > > > >Tep: By the way, any conditioned dhamma is sankhara (all sankhata dhammas are sankhara!). > > >S: So what are dhamma? > T: A research finding about what 'dhamma' means is given below. > > >S: Are sunrises, diamonds, roses and people 'dhamma' or are they concepts, ideas about what is seen, heard and touched? > > T: They are concepts in the Abhidhamma sense; yet, each of them is legitimate mind object (external ayatana). As such they are dhamma in the looser sense of “something known or thought ofâ€. They also possessed of the three characteristics that can be contemplated. > ........... > > Some Research Findings: > > 1) Chasu ajjhattika bahiresu ayatanesu: the eye, the ear, the nose, the tongue, the body and the mind are the six internal sense-bases, and material form, mind, smell, tastes, tactual object, and mental object are the six external sense-bases. This mental object, object of consciousness, is known as 'dhamma' in the Suttas. > > 2) Vism VII, note 1: "Roughly dhamma = what-can-be-remembered or what-can-be-borne-in-mind (dháretabba) as kamma = what-can-be-done (kátabba). The following two principal (and overlapping) > senses are involved here: (i) the Law as taught, and (ii) objects of consciousness. > (i) In the first case the word has either been left untranslated as “Dhamma†or “dhamma†> or it has been tendered as “Law†or “law.†... (ii) In the second case the word in its looser sense of “something known or thought of†has either been left untranslated as “dhamma†or rendered by “state†(more rarely by “thing†or “phenomenonâ€), while in its technical sense as one of the twelve bases or > eighteen elements “mental object†and “mental datum†have been used." [End of quote] > > 3) Maha-hatthipadopama Sutta: "Now there comes a time, friends, when the external liquid property is provoked,[2] and at that time the external earth property vanishes. So when even in the external earth property â€" so vast â€" inconstancy will be discerned, destructibility will be discerned, a tendency to decay will be discerned, changeability will be discerned, then what in this short-lasting body, sustained by clinging, is 'I' or 'mine' or 'what I am'? It has here only a 'no.' > ................ > > Be well, > Tep > === > #129957 From: Thanh Mai Tran Date: Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nina's accident mai_k41 Dear Nina and Sarah Sarah, thank you so much for telling us the Nina's accident. I'm so sorry to hear that. I sincerely wish Nina gets well soon and the Vietnamese Dhamma friends will have chance to meet her in the next September, in Vietnam. Sarah, could you please continue to update information about the Nina's health for us? Best regards, TM 2013/4/13 sarah <...> > Jon and I have just made a quick call to Nina at the hospital. She sounds > in good spirits in spite of a lot of pain following the surgery which seems > to have gone well. <...> #129958 From: Harry Liew Date: Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nina's accident harryliew66 Our best wishes to Nina. ________________________________ From: sarah <...> Jon and I have just made a quick call to Nina at the hospital. She sounds in good spirits in spite of a lot of pain following the surgery which seems to have gone well. <...> #129959 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:50 am Subject: Re: Nina's accident epsteinrob Hi Sarah & all. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > [Bas Camelbeeck, thank you for informing us about your aunt - very helpful.] > > Jon and I have just made a quick call to Nina at the hospital. She sounds in good spirits in spite of a lot of pain following the surgery which seems to have gone well. ... > [As it happens, Jon had quite a nasty fall last week, cut his head and hurt his arm - couldn't move. Fortunately, no bones were broken in his case. We never know what kamma has in store!] If you are able to speak to Nina again, please send her my best wishes for her quick recovery. I hope she will indeed be able to go to Thailand. I am also sorry to hear about Jon's fall and injuries. I hope everyone will be well in the near future! I am not sure why so many things are happening at this time, but I just had a car crash myself, a few days ago -- no injuries at all, just a few scrapes on my hands -- but the car will probably have to be replaced. I hope that this will be the end of the dsg run of accidents for now! Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - #129960 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:50 am Subject: Re: Right Supports for Right Understanding epsteinrob Hi Tep. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Rob E., - > > What you have described as a future Dhamma-study plan is quite practical : > > >RE: I will be a little more content if one day I have the time and focus to read the scriptures more thoroughly as well as commentaries ... on my favorite suttas - the anapanasati, satipatthana and kayagasati suttas - as well as study the organization of the originals more carefully [and perhaps put them into practice...?] And it wouldn't hurt to learn some Pali... :-) > > T: I hope that you will consider letting your friends know how such learning and its application ("practice") benefit you. > ......... If I manage to put this plan into effect at some point, I will be happy to report back on what takes place. > > >T: ... someone may argue that ... higher development can also be achieved through vipassana bhavana based on just khanika samadhi (momentary concentration) with no jhana. > > >RE: I wish I knew the answer to that! I hope those who argue this way are correct, as many of us don't seem that adept at developing jhana - most especially including myself. > > T: I hope so too; but the question has been whether the easy path with no jhana really works to turn someone into at least a Sotapanna; jhana is required for sure for anagami-magga. The Bahiya story (Ud 1.10) does not tell us whether the "wise" Bahiya already had mastered the jhana (at least the first rupa-jhana) before he met the Buddha. That is a good point. I guess we can't really determine the answer based only on this sutta. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - #129961 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:44 pm Subject: Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. thomaslaw03 Dear Tadao,and Dhamma friends, It seems that 'samsara is linked to dukkha' is not clearly stated in the suttas of Samyutta Nikaya? Regards, Thomas #129962 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma-anupassana jonoabb Hi Tep --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi Jonothan (Nina, Sarah, Rob E.) - > > Thank you for welcoming me back. The elapse of five years means we both have significantly advanced our knowledge of the Dhamma. Such improvement should make our discussion today more valuable than before! > =============== J: Yes, hopefully that's so! > =============== > T: I can only understand the second explanation, but it is obvious. For example, the contemplation on feeling is for "the laying hold of the aggregate of feeling", i.e. for abandoning craving, aversion, and delusion caused by feeling. > ........... > =============== J: Right, and the teaching on the contemplation on the body is for "the laying hold of the aggregate of corporeality or materiality [= rupakhandha]". So in the case of both rupas and feeling, each falls under at least 2 of the 4 anupassana (as both are also included in the 4th anupassana by virtue of the reference to the 5 khandhas. > =============== > >Jon: As I read these explanations, dhammas may fall under more than a single contemplation. This suggests to me that the 4-fold classification is for assistance in comprehension by the listener/reader, rather than for any other (i.e., doctrinal) reason. > > T: Ven. Soma himself explains it differently. He says that only one of the four objects of contemplation (kaya, vedana, citta, dhamma) is supposed to be chosen by the meditator, according to his/her character, temperament and cognizing slant. Read on! > .............. > > "All the four different objects of mindfulness: body, feeling, consciousness and mental objects, have to be understood before one reaches sanctitude. According to character, temperament and cognizing slant, one can make however only one of these the preliminary object of contemplation. ... ." > ............... > > That makes sense for me. > =============== J: Thanks for this extract from Ven. Soma's Introduction to the sutta translation. While it may sound good, the real test is whether or not it accords with the Buddha's teaching. In the passage you've quoted the Ven. talks about selecting one of the 4 objects of mindfulness and making it the "preliminary object of contemplation" (an expression he mentions a dozen times or more in his Introduction). I am not aware of any reference in the Pali Canon to such an idea (are you?). The Ven. also talks about the "wholetime practice of mindfulness". This again is a notion that, as far as I know, is not found in the ancient texts. As I read those texts, awareness can only become continuous -- or something approaching that -- when it has been developed to the stage that it becomes a power (baala), but that signifies a level of attainment rather than being a kind of `practice' to be followed. Jon #129963 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:31 pm Subject: Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. sarahprocter... Dear Thomas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > It seems that 'samsara is linked to dukkha' is not clearly stated in the suttas of Samyutta Nikaya? .... S: "Arising of Suffering (1), SN 35:21 (9) )Bodhi transl): " 'Bhikkhus, the arising, continuation, production, and manifestation of the eye is the arising of suffering, the continuation of disease, the manifestation of aging-and-death. The arising of the ear.... the nose....the tongue....the body....the mind is the arising of suffering, the continuation of disease, the manifestation of aging-and-death. " 'The cessation, subsiding, and passing away of the eye....the mind is the cessation of suffering, the subsiding of disease, the passing away of aging-and-death.' " *** In the following sutta, we read the same for the six external sense bases of forms, sounds, odours, tastes, tactile objects and mental phenomena. In other words, all conditioned dhammas (realities) are dukkha. The cessation of conditioned dhammas (the end of samsara) through the development of right understanding is the cessation of dukkha (at parinibbana). **** SN 35:27 "Full Understanding" "Bhikkhus, without directly knowing and fully understanding the all, without developing dispassion towards it and abandoning it, one is incapable of destroying suffering. "And what, bhikkhus, is the all....? "The eye and forms and eye-consciousness and things to be cognized by eye-consciousness....." etc **** Is it clearly stated enough? Metta Sarah p.s. Thx for trimming your last post - grateful if everyone could TRIM! Ask Pt or Jon or myself off-list for any assistance. ====== #129964 From: han tun Date: Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. hantun1 Dear Thomas, Sarah, and Tadao, Kindly read the full text of SN 15.126. The translation is by Bhikkhu Bodhi. Apart from the word "sa.msaara" used by Bhikkhu Bodhi in his translation, I have put the words [sa.msaaro] and [sa.msarata.m] in square brackets in the Paa.li text to show the linkage between sa.msaara and dukkha, which in this sutta is represented by the tears that the beings have shed during this long course. SN 15.126 Assu sutta (Tears) Saavatthiya.m viharati. "anamataggoya.m, bhikkhave, [sa.msaaro]. Pubbaa ko.ti na pa~n~naayati avijjaaniivara.naana.m sattaana.m ta.nhaasa.myojanaana.m sandhaavata.m [sa.msarata.m]. At Saavatthi. "Bhikkhus, this sa.msaara is without discoverable beginning. A first point is not discerned of beings roaming and wandering on hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving. ------------ "Ta.m ki.m ma~n~natha, bhikkhave, katama.m nu kho bahutara.m, ya.m vaa vo iminaa diighena addhunaa sandhaavata.m [sa.msarata.m] amanaapasampayogaa manaapavippayogaa kandantaana.m rodantaana.m assu passanna.m paggharita.m, ya.m vaa catuusu mahaasamuddesu udaka"nti? "What do you think, bhikkhus, which is more: the stream of tears that you have shed as you roamed and wandered on through this long course, weeping and wailing because of being united with the disagreeable and separated from the agreeable--this or the water in the four great oceans?" ------------ "Yathaa kho maya.m, bhante, bhagavataa dhamma.m desita.m aajaanaama, etadeva, bhante, bahutara.m ya.m no iminaa diighena addhunaa sandhaavata.m [sa.msarata.m] amanaapasampayogaa manaapavippayogaa kandantaana.m rodantaana.m assu passanna.m paggharita.m, na tveva catuusu mahaasamuddesu udaka"nti. "As we understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, venerable sir, the stream of tears that we have shed as we roamed and wandered through this long course, weeping and wailing because of being united with the disagreeable and separated from the agreeable--this alone is more than the water in the four great oceans." ------------ "Saadhu saadhu, bhikkhave, saadhu kho me tumhe, bhikkhave, eva.m dhamma.m desita.m aajaanaatha. Etadeva, bhikkhave, bahutara.m ya.m vo iminaa diighena addhunaa sandhaavata.m [sa.msarata.m] amanaapasampayogaa manaapavippayogaa kandantaana.m rodantaana.m assu passanna.m paggharita.m, na tveva catuusu mahaasamuddesu udaka.m. "Good, good, bhikkhus! It is good that you understand the Dhamma taught by me in such a way. The stream of tears that you have shed as you roamed and wandered through this long course, weeping and wailing because of being united with the disagreeable and separated from the agreeable--this alone is more than the water in the four great oceans. ---------- "Diigharatta.m vo, bhikkhave, maatumara.na.m paccanubhuuta.m; tesa.m vaa maatumara.na.m paccanubhontaana.m amanaapasampayogaa manaapavippayogaa kandantaana.m rodantaana.m assu passanna.m paggharita.m, na tveva catuusu mahaasamuddesu udaka.m. "For a long time, bhikkhus, you have experienced the death of a mother; as you have experienced this, weeping and wailing because of being united with the disagreeable and separated from the agreeable, the stream of tears that you have shed is more than the water in the four great oceans. ---------- "Diigharatta.m vo, bhikkhave, pitumara.na.m paccanubhuuta.m [pe] bhaatumara.na.m paccanubhuuta.m [pe] bhaginimara.na.m paccanubhuuta.m [pe] puttamara.na.m paccanubhuuta.m [pe] dhiitumara.na.m paccanubhuuta.m [pe] ~naatibyasana.m paccanubhuuta.m [pe] bhogabyasana.m paccanubhuuta.m [pe] "For a long time, bhikkhus, you have experienced the death of a father [pe] the death of a brother [pe] the death of a sister [pe] the death of a son [pe] the death of a daughter [pe] the loss of relatives [pe] the loss of wealth [pe] -------------- "Diigharatta.m vo, bhikkhave , rogabyasana.m paccanubhuuta.m, tesa.m vo rogabyasana.m paccanubhontaana.m amanaapasampayogaa manaapavippayogaa kandantaana.m rodantaana.m assu passanna.m paggharita.m, na tveva catuusu mahaasamuddesu udaka.m. "For a long time, bhikkhus, you have experienced the loss through illness; as you have experienced this, weeping and wailing because of being united with the disagreeable and separated from the agreeable, the stream of tears that you have shed is more than the water in the four great oceans. -------------- "Ta.m kissa hetu? Anamataggoya.m, bhikkhave, [sa.msaaro] [pe] yaava~ncida.m, bhikkhave, alameva sabbasa"nkhaaresu nibbinditu.m, ala.m virajjitu.m, ala.m vimuccitu"nti. "For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, this sa.msaara is without discoverable beginning [pe] It is enough to experience revulsion towards all formations, enough to become dispassionate towards them, enough to be liberated from them." ------------ Han: The whole sutta is about dukkha: about the tears that the beings have shed during this long course of sa.msaara. If the linkage between sa.msaara and the dukkha is still not clear enough in this sutta, I cannot say anything more! with metta, Han #129965 From: "nsdragonman" Date: Sun Apr 14, 2013 8:52 pm Subject: Re: Nina's accident nsdragonman Please give her our regards too! We were correcting the draft of ADL and sent her some questions. Usually she replies so promptly so I decided to see if she was posting here! tom and b --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > [Bas Camelbeeck, thank you for informing us about your aunt - very helpful.] > > Jon and I have just made a quick call to Nina at the hospital. She sounds in good spirits in spite of a lot of pain following the surgery which seems to have gone well. > > Apparently she'd been visiting Lodewijk's grave site and was walking to the tramway when she fell. People helped and an ambulance took her to hospital. After a few days in hospital, she will go to a rehabilitation centre, probably for a few weeks. She's already started the exercises they've given her. I'm sure she's having excellent treatment and care. > > She told us how she's already told everyone at the hospital that she's going to Thailand and Vietnam in August! Very determined about this. > > We also exchanged a few words about 'this moment', understanding now and how we never know what will happen next. What's happening now will be yesterday tomorrow.... Just different experiences through different sense doors with lots of thinking in between. > > She asked us to send her best wishes to everyone. She may not have computer access for quite some time. > > [As it happens, Jon had quite a nasty fall last week, cut his head and hurt his arm - couldn't move. Fortunately, no bones were broken in his case. We never know what kamma has in store!] > > Metta > > Sarah > > > This is to inform you that my aunt Nina broke her hip Thursday and has been operated yesterday. She Will stay in bronovo hospital in THE Hague for the next few days. > ====== > #129966 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:18 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. tadaomiyamot... Dear Han, Thank you very much for the citation below. tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Thomas, Sarah, and Tadao, >  > Kindly read the full text of SN 15.126. The translation is by Bhikkhu Bodhi. > Apart from the word "sa.msaara" used by Bhikkhu Bodhi in his translation, I have put the words [sa.msaaro] and [sa.msarata.m] in square brackets in the Paa.li text to show the linkage between sa.msaara and dukkha, which in this sutta is represented by the tears that the beings have shed during this long course. >  > SN 15.126 Assu sutta (Tears) >  > Saavatthiya.m viharati. "anamataggoya.m, bhikkhave, [sa.msaaro]. Pubbaa ko.ti na pa~n~naayati avijjaaniivara.naana.m sattaana.m ta.nhaasa.myojanaana.m sandhaavata.m [sa.msarata.m]. >  > At Saavatthi. "Bhikkhus, this sa.msaara is without discoverable beginning. A first point is not discerned of beings roaming and wandering on hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving. > ------------ > "Ta.m ki.m ma~n~natha, bhikkhave, katama.m nu kho bahutara.m, ya.m vaa vo iminaa diighena addhunaa sandhaavata.m [sa.msarata.m] amanaapasampayogaa manaapavippayogaa kandantaana.m rodantaana.m assu passanna.m paggharita.m, ya.m vaa catuusu mahaasamuddesu udaka"nti? >  > "What do you think, bhikkhus, which is more: the stream of tears that you have shed as you roamed and wandered on through this long course, weeping and wailing because of being united with the disagreeable and separated from the agreeable--this or the water in the four great oceans?" > ------------ > "Yathaa kho maya.m, bhante, bhagavataa dhamma.m desita.m aajaanaama, etadeva, bhante, bahutara.m ya.m no iminaa diighena addhunaa sandhaavata.m [sa.msarata.m] amanaapasampayogaa manaapavippayogaa kandantaana.m rodantaana.m assu passanna.m paggharita.m, na tveva catuusu mahaasamuddesu udaka"nti. >  > "As we understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, venerable sir, the stream of tears that we have shed as we roamed and wandered through this long course, weeping and wailing because of being united with the disagreeable and separated from the agreeable--this alone is more than the water in the four great oceans." > ------------ > "Saadhu saadhu, bhikkhave, saadhu kho me tumhe, bhikkhave, eva.m dhamma.m desita.m aajaanaatha. Etadeva, bhikkhave, bahutara.m ya.m vo iminaa diighena addhunaa sandhaavata.m [sa.msarata.m] amanaapasampayogaa manaapavippayogaa kandantaana.m rodantaana.m assu passanna.m paggharita.m, na tveva catuusu mahaasamuddesu udaka.m. >  > "Good, good, bhikkhus! It is good that you understand the Dhamma taught by me in such a way. The stream of tears that you have shed as you roamed and wandered through this long course, weeping and wailing because of being united with the disagreeable and separated from the agreeable--this alone is more than the water in the four great oceans. > ---------- > "Diigharatta.m vo, bhikkhave, maatumara.na.m paccanubhuuta.m; tesa.m vaa maatumara.na.m paccanubhontaana.m amanaapasampayogaa manaapavippayogaa kandantaana.m rodantaana.m assu passanna.m paggharita.m, na tveva catuusu mahaasamuddesu udaka.m. >  > "For a long time, bhikkhus, you have experienced the death of a mother; as you have experienced this, weeping and wailing because of being united with the disagreeable and separated from the agreeable, the stream of tears that you have shed is more than the water in the four great oceans. > ---------- > "Diigharatta.m vo, bhikkhave, pitumara.na.m paccanubhuuta.m [pe] > bhaatumara.na.m paccanubhuuta.m [pe] > bhaginimara.na.m paccanubhuuta.m [pe] > puttamara.na.m paccanubhuuta.m [pe] > dhiitumara.na.m paccanubhuuta.m [pe] > ~naatibyasana.m paccanubhuuta.m [pe] > bhogabyasana.m paccanubhuuta.m [pe] >  > "For a long time, bhikkhus, you have experienced the death of a father [pe] > the death of a brother [pe] > the death of a sister [pe] > the death of a son [pe] > the death of a daughter [pe] > the loss of relatives [pe] > the loss of wealth [pe] > -------------- > "Diigharatta.m vo, bhikkhave , rogabyasana.m paccanubhuuta.m, tesa.m vo rogabyasana.m paccanubhontaana.m amanaapasampayogaa manaapavippayogaa kandantaana.m rodantaana.m assu passanna.m paggharita.m, na tveva catuusu mahaasamuddesu udaka.m. >  > "For a long time, bhikkhus, you have experienced the loss through illness; as you have experienced this, weeping and wailing because of being united with the disagreeable and separated from the agreeable, the stream of tears that you have shed is more than the water in the four great oceans. > -------------- > "Ta.m kissa hetu? Anamataggoya.m, bhikkhave, [sa.msaaro] [pe] > yaava~ncida.m, bhikkhave, alameva sabbasa"nkhaaresu nibbinditu.m, ala.m virajjitu.m, ala.m vimuccitu"nti. >  > "For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, this sa.msaara is without discoverable beginning [pe] > It is enough to experience revulsion towards all formations, enough to become dispassionate towards them, enough to be liberated from them." > ------------ >  > Han: The whole sutta is about dukkha: about the tears that the beings have shed during this long course of sa.msaara. > If the linkage between sa.msaara and the dukkha is still not clear enough in this sutta, I cannot say anything more! >  > with metta, > Han > > > #129967 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:24 pm Subject: Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. tadaomiyamot... Dear Sarah Thank you for the citation below. We easily forget the significance of the reality of this moment. Kun Sujin often says that any moments which have passed away with no awareness are totally useless. tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Thomas, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > > > It seems that 'samsara is linked to dukkha' is not clearly stated in the suttas of Samyutta Nikaya? > .... > > S: "Arising of Suffering (1), SN 35:21 (9) )Bodhi transl): > > " 'Bhikkhus, the arising, continuation, production, and manifestation of the eye is the arising of suffering, the continuation of disease, the manifestation of aging-and-death. The arising of the ear.... the nose....the tongue....the body....the mind is the arising of suffering, the continuation of disease, the manifestation of aging-and-death. > > " 'The cessation, subsiding, and passing away of the eye....the mind is the cessation of suffering, the subsiding of disease, the passing away of aging-and-death.' " > *** > > In the following sutta, we read the same for the six external sense bases of forms, sounds, odours, tastes, tactile objects and mental phenomena. > > In other words, all conditioned dhammas (realities) are dukkha. The cessation of conditioned dhammas (the end of samsara) through the development of right understanding is the cessation of dukkha (at parinibbana). > **** > SN 35:27 "Full Understanding" > > "Bhikkhus, without directly knowing and fully understanding the all, without > developing dispassion towards it and abandoning it, one is incapable of > destroying suffering. > > "And what, bhikkhus, is the all....? > > "The eye and forms and eye-consciousness and things to be cognized by > eye-consciousness....." etc > **** > Is it clearly stated enough? > > Metta > > Sarah > > p.s. Thx for trimming your last post - grateful if everyone could TRIM! Ask Pt or Jon or myself off-list for any assistance. > ====== > #129968 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:39 pm Subject: Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. tadaomiyamot... Hi Thomas I myself do see some difference between Thai Buddhists and me in terms of Saddhaa; theirs are much firmer than mine. It is my speculation that their strong faith stems largely from their 100% conviction of the existence of sansaara. It is again my speculation that such strong faith provides the development of sati/pannaa with a firm support. tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > > Dear Tadao,and Dhamma friends, > > It seems that 'samsara is linked to dukkha' is not clearly stated in the suttas of Samyutta Nikaya? > > Regards, > > Thomas > #129969 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:52 pm Subject: Re: Right Supports for Right Understanding tadaomiyamot... Dear Tep and Rob Studying of the scriptures is useful as long as one does not think that accumulating certain mounts and kinds of knowledge would induce more sati and pannaa in one's daily life. The idea is based on attachment not on detachment. I think it depends on one's yoniso-manasikaara to regard what are beneficial and what are not for the development of sati/pannaa. But the idea of doing specific things to induce more sati/pannaa sounds very much motivated by self/attachment; hence it is not yonio-manasikaara (wise thinking) in its true sense. The point is that doing things without expectation is much much better than doing so with a full of expectation. Best wishes, tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Tep. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > > Hi Rob E., - > > > > What you have described as a future Dhamma-study plan is quite practical : > > > > >RE: I will be a little more content if one day I have the time and focus to read the scriptures more thoroughly as well as commentaries ... on my favorite suttas - the anapanasati, satipatthana and kayagasati suttas - as well as study the organization of the originals more carefully [and perhaps put them into practice...?] And it wouldn't hurt to learn some Pali... :-) > > > > T: I hope that you will consider letting your friends know how such learning and its application ("practice") benefit you. > > ......... > > If I manage to put this plan into effect at some point, I will be happy to report back on what takes place. > > > > >T: ... someone may argue that ... higher development can also be achieved through vipassana bhavana based on just khanika samadhi (momentary concentration) with no jhana. > > > > >RE: I wish I knew the answer to that! I hope those who argue this way are correct, as many of us don't seem that adept at developing jhana - most especially including myself. > > > > T: I hope so too; but the question has been whether the easy path with no jhana really works to turn someone into at least a Sotapanna; jhana is required for sure for anagami-magga. The Bahiya story (Ud 1.10) does not tell us whether the "wise" Bahiya already had mastered the jhana (at least the first rupa-jhana) before he met the Buddha. > > That is a good point. I guess we can't really determine the answer based only on this sutta. > > Best, > Rob E. > > - - - - - - - - - - - - > #129970 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:38 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma-anupassana t.sastri Hi Jon, - I appreciate your skillful comment with subtle disagreement. >J: Thanks for this extract from Ven. Soma's Introduction to the sutta translation. While it may sound good, the real test is whether or not it accords with the Buddha's teaching. T: Yes, the real test of a good pudding is in its taste. >J: In the passage you've quoted the Ven. talks about selecting one of the 4 objects of mindfulness and making it the "preliminary object of contemplation" (an expression he mentions a dozen times or more in his Introduction). I am not aware of any reference in the Pali Canon to such an idea (are you?). T: No, I am not either. But, as you know, every vipassana teacher has his/her unique way of teaching. Again, the real test is whether what he/she has taught works in practice for the student. >J: The Ven. also talks about the "wholetime practice of mindfulness". This again is a notion that, as far as I know, is not found in the ancient texts. >J: As I read those texts, awareness can only become continuous -- or something approaching that -- when it has been developed to the stage that it becomes a power (baala), but that signifies a level of attainment rather than being a kind of `practice' to be followed. T: I agree with that nice explanation of power(baala) as a "level of attainment". Maybe the wording in that article is a cause of the confusion. As I understand it, satipatthana is a practice to develop sati, to establish sati (as a "foundation" -- patthana); the result is an attainment. Sati becomes sati-baala (strength of mindfulness) when the mindfulness practice (i.e., development, bhavana) reaches a higher level of (mental)attainment called "faculty of mindfulness" (satindriya). "Whatever is the faculty of mindfulness, that is the strength of mindfulness. Whatever is the strength of mindfulness, that is the faculty of mindfulness." [SN 48.43] Be well, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Tep > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Jonothan (Nina, Sarah, Rob E.) - > > > > Thank you for welcoming me back. The elapse of five years means we both have significantly advanced our knowledge of the Dhamma. Such improvement should make our discussion today more valuable than before! > > =============== #129971 From: Kanchana Chuathong Date: Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is fear? kchuathong Sawatdee Khun Azita, Glad to hear from you, Thank you for your encouragement. I would like to join DSG but my poor English prevent me from that. I would like to know if you want to join the trip to Da Lat with us or not. (10 Sept. - 13 Sept.) I will forward the details to you. It' s a very good words that you said "Live for understanding more and more", Kanchana (Dang). ________________________________ From: azita SawatdeeKhunKanchana, Thank you for this precise post - short but full of truth. We don't like dosa because its accompanied by unpleasant feeling (and no-one likes that) but if for a brief moment there is some understanding that it is anatta and that its also conditioned, then there just might be some lessening of the clinging to having less dosa Live for understanding <....> #129972 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:26 am Subject: Re: Right Supports for Right Understanding t.sastri Hi Tadao (Rob E, et al.) - I think I like what you wrote, but there is an inkling doubt whether I clearly understand it ! [Tadao:] "Studying of the scriptures is useful as long as one does not think that accumulating certain amounts and kinds of knowledge would induce more sati and pannaa in one's daily life. The idea is based on attachment not on detachment." T: By saying so, does it mean that you disagree with Deanna and Nina in the following conversation? But I might have misunderstood you! > Deanna: > If one lives one's life well > and knows this moment deeply this will > condition more moments > of understanding to arise. Nina: Dear Shakti, good you stress this moment. Understanding now conditions understanding again later on. ................ >Tadao: I think it depends on one's yoniso-manasikaara to regard what are beneficial and what are not for the development of sati/pannaa. T: That I agree. However, value of Dhamma discussion does not depend on agreement between discussion partners. :-) >Tadao: But the idea of doing specific things to induce more sati/pannaa sounds very much motivated by self/attachment; hence it is not yonio-manasikaara (wise thinking) in its true sense. The point is that doing things without expectation is much much better than doing so with a full of expectation. T: May I ask you to kindly answer two (innocent) questions for me, please? 1. Satipatthana bhavana is development of sati and panna. Is such development "motivated by self/attachment" as you see it? 2. Do you never set a goal (an expectation) for your Dhamma practice? Thanking you in advance, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "tadaomiyamoto@..." wrote: > > Dear Tep and Rob > > Studying of the scriptures is useful as long as one does not think that accumulating certain mounts and kinds of knowledge would induce more sati and pannaa in one's daily life. > > The idea is based on attachment not on detachment. > > I think it depends on one's yoniso-manasikaara to regard what are beneficial and what > are not for the development of sati/pannaa. But the idea of doing specific things to induce more sati/pannaa sounds very much motivated by self/attachment; hence it is not > yonio-manasikaara (wise thinking) in its true sense. > > The point is that doing things without expectation is much much better than doing so with a full of expectation. > > Best wishes, > > tadao > #129973 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:35 am Subject: Re: Right Supports for Right Understanding .. Two Good Heads t.sastri Hi Rob E., - My reply is at the bottom. > >T: I hope that you will consider letting your friends know how such learning and its application ("practice") benefit you. >R.E. : If I manage to put this plan into effect at some point, I will be happy to report back on what takes place. >>T: The Bahiya story (Ud 1.10) does not tell us whether the "wise" Bahiya already had mastered the jhana (at least the first rupa-jhana) before he met the Buddha. >R.E. : That is a good point. I guess we can't really determine the answer based only on this sutta. .......... T: So far it has appeared to me that we can (and should) help each other explore the teachings in the Suttas and learn more. (Two good heads are better than one.) Thanks, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Tep. > #129974 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:32 am Subject: Re: Right Supports for Right Understanding truth_aerator Hello RobertE, all, >That is a good point. I guess we can't really determine the answer >based only on this sutta. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wonder if it is possible to make general statements from personal instructions found in any sutta. IMHO. With best wishes, Alex #129975 From: han tun Date: Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. hantun1 Dear Thomas, Sarah, and Tadao,  The linkage between sa.msaara and dukkha can also be seen in the following manner.  The definition of dukkha ariya sacca in SN 56.11 Dhammacakkappavattana sutta,  "Ida.m kho pana, bhikkhave, dukkha.m ariyasacca.m (1) jaatipi dukkhaa, (2) jaraapi dukkhaa, (3) byaadhipi dukkho, (4) mara.nampi dukkha.m, (5) appiyehi sampayogo dukkho, (6) piyehi vippayogo dukkho, (7) yampiccha.m na labhati tampi dukkha.m (8) sa.mkhittena pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhaa dukkhaa.  In SN 15.126 Assu sutta, some of the above items are included which are shown in square brackets.  (3) byaadhipi dukkho = [rogabyasana.m paccanubhuuta.m] (4) mara.nampi dukkha.m = [maatumara.na.m] [pitumara.na.m] [bhaatumara.na.m] etc. (5) appiyehi sampayogo dukkho = [amanaapasampayogaa] (6) piyehi vippayogo dukkho = [manaapavippayogaa]  --------------------  In fact, sa.msaara is linked not only with dukkha ariya sacca, the first Noble Truth, but also with dukkhasamudaya ariya sacca, the second Noble Truth.  The definition of dukkhasamudaya ariya sacca in SN 56.11 Dhammacakkappavattana sutta,  Ida.m kho pana, bhikkhave, dukkhasamudaya.m ariyasacca.m--yaaya.m [ta.nhaa] ponobbhavikaa nandiraagasahagataa tatratatraabhinandinii, seyyathida.m--kaamata.nhaa, bhavata.nhaa, vibhavata.nhaa.  Essentially, [ta.nhaa] is the main dukkhasamudaya ariya sacca, as defined in SN 56.11.  In SN 15.126 Assu sutta, it is stated that the beings are roaming and wandering on in sa.msaara hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving (ta.nhaa).  Saavatthiya.m viharati. "anamataggoya.m, bhikkhave, sa.msaaro. Pubbaa ko.ti na pa~n~naayati [avijjaaniivara.naana.m] sattaana.m [ta.nhaasa.myojanaana.m] sandhaavata.m [sa.msarata.m].  with metta, Han From: han tun To: "dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1.  Dear Thomas, Sarah, and Tadao,  Kindly read the full text of SN 15.126. The translation is by Bhikkhu Bodhi. Apart from the word "sa.msaara" used by Bhikkhu Bodhi in his translation, I have put the words [sa.msaaro] and [sa.msarata.m] in square brackets in the Paa.li text to show the linkage between sa.msaara and dukkha, which in this sutta is represented by the tears that the beings have shed during this long course.  SN 15.126 Assu sutta (Tears)  Saavatthiya.m viharati. "anamataggoya.m, bhikkhave, [sa.msaaro]. Pubbaa ko.ti na pa~n~naayati avijjaaniivara.naana.m sattaana.m ta.nhaasa.myojanaana.m sandhaavata.m [sa.msarata.m].  At Saavatthi. "Bhikkhus, this sa.msaara is without discoverable beginning. A first point is not discerned of beings roaming and wandering on hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving. ------------ "Ta.m ki.m ma~n~natha, bhikkhave, katama.m nu kho bahutara.m, ya.m vaa vo iminaa diighena addhunaa sandhaavata.m [sa.msarata.m] amanaapasampayogaa manaapavippayogaa kandantaana.m rodantaana.m assu passanna.m paggharita.m, ya.m vaa catuusu mahaasamuddesu udaka"nti?  "What do you think, bhikkhus, which is more: the stream of tears that you have shed as you roamed and wandered on through this long course, weeping and wailing because of being united with the disagreeable and separated from the agreeable--this or the water in the four great oceans?" ------------ "Yathaa kho maya.m, bhante, bhagavataa dhamma.m desita.m aajaanaama, etadeva, bhante, bahutara.m ya.m no iminaa diighena addhunaa sandhaavata.m [sa.msarata.m] amanaapasampayogaa manaapavippayogaa kandantaana.m rodantaana.m assu passanna.m paggharita.m, na tveva catuusu mahaasamuddesu udaka"nti.  "As we understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, venerable sir, the stream of tears that we have shed as we roamed and wandered through this long course, weeping and wailing because of being united with the disagreeable and separated from the agreeable--this alone is more than the water in the four great oceans." ------------ "Saadhu saadhu, bhikkhave, saadhu kho me tumhe, bhikkhave, eva.m dhamma.m desita.m aajaanaatha. Etadeva, bhikkhave, bahutara.m ya.m vo iminaa diighena addhunaa sandhaavata.m [sa.msarata.m] amanaapasampayogaa manaapavippayogaa kandantaana.m rodantaana.m assu passanna.m paggharita.m, na tveva catuusu mahaasamuddesu udaka.m.  "Good, good, bhikkhus! It is good that you understand the Dhamma taught by me in such a way. The stream of tears that you have shed as you roamed and wandered through this long course, weeping and wailing because of being united with the disagreeable and separated from the agreeable--this alone is more than the water in the four great oceans. ---------- "Diigharatta.m vo, bhikkhave, maatumara.na.m paccanubhuuta.m; tesa.m vaa maatumara.na.m paccanubhontaana.m amanaapasampayogaa manaapavippayogaa kandantaana.m rodantaana.m assu passanna.m paggharita.m, na tveva catuusu mahaasamuddesu udaka.m.  "For a long time, bhikkhus, you have experienced the death of a mother; as you have experienced this, weeping and wailing because of being united with the disagreeable and separated from the agreeable, the stream of tears that you have shed is more than the water in the four great oceans. ---------- "Diigharatta.m vo, bhikkhave, pitumara.na.m paccanubhuuta.m [pe] bhaatumara.na.m paccanubhuuta.m [pe] bhaginimara.na.m paccanubhuuta.m [pe] puttamara.na.m paccanubhuuta.m [pe] dhiitumara.na.m paccanubhuuta.m [pe] ~naatibyasana.m paccanubhuuta.m [pe] bhogabyasana.m paccanubhuuta.m [pe]  "For a long time, bhikkhus, you have experienced the death of a father [pe] the death of a brother [pe] the death of a sister [pe] the death of a son [pe] the death of a daughter [pe] the loss of relatives [pe] the loss of wealth [pe] -------------- "Diigharatta.m vo, bhikkhave , rogabyasana.m paccanubhuuta.m, tesa.m vo rogabyasana.m paccanubhontaana.m amanaapasampayogaa manaapavippayogaa kandantaana.m rodantaana.m assu passanna.m paggharita.m, na tveva catuusu mahaasamuddesu udaka.m.  "For a long time, bhikkhus, you have experienced the loss through illness; as you have experienced this, weeping and wailing because of being united with the disagreeable and separated from the agreeable, the stream of tears that you have shed is more than the water in the four great oceans. -------------- "Ta.m kissa hetu? Anamataggoya.m, bhikkhave, [sa.msaaro] [pe] yaava~ncida.m, bhikkhave, alameva sabbasa"nkhaaresu nibbinditu.m, ala.m virajjitu.m, ala.m vimuccitu"nti.  "For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, this sa.msaara is without discoverable beginning [pe] It is enough to experience revulsion towards all formations, enough to become dispassionate towards them, enough to be liberated from them." ------------  Han: The whole sutta is about dukkha: about the tears that the beings have shed during this long course of sa.msaara. If the linkage between sa.msaara and the dukkha is still not clear enough in this sutta, I cannot say anything more!  with metta, Han #129976 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:27 am Subject: Re: It Is An Illusion, a Mirage ... Drawback of the Experts t.sastri Hi Tadao, - >Tadao: I'm not an expert in the field. > T: Often I find out that being "expert" can be a drawback. >Tadao: But as far as I remember, there are six meanings assigned to Dhamma/Dharma, and > the most basic meaning is "law". The Pali definition of Dhamma(Dharma), whose root is "dhar (to hold)" is "lokag dharetii ti dhammo" (it is called "law", since it holds the world (i.e., our society)). > T: Usually, any technical term that has several meanings is confusing to non-experts. On the other hand, a drawback the experts have is in using the several meanings to argue (or find fault) with one another! >Tadao: If there is no law, our society would disintegrate. > T: I absolutely agree with that. Thanks. Be happy, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "tadaomiyamoto@..." wrote: > > > Hi Tep > > I'm not an expert in the field. > #129977 From: "azita" Date: Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:55 am Subject: Re: Nina's accident gazita2002 Hallo Nina and Jon, May you both have a speedy recovery. dear Nina, take it easy and don't push too hard, allow the healing to do 'its thing'. thinking of you. Live for understanding azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > [Bas Camelbeeck, thank you for informing us about your aunt - very helpful.] #129978 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:57 am Subject: Re: It Is An Illusion, a Mirage ... Drawback of the Experts tadaomiyamot... Dear Tep I totally agree with you. In whatever field I'm interested in, I always treat myself as a mere novice. Mettaaya (With Mettaa) tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Tadao, - > > >Tadao: I'm not an expert in the field. > > > T: Often I find out that being "expert" can be a drawback. > > >Tadao: But as far as I remember, there are six meanings assigned to Dhamma/Dharma, and > > the most basic meaning is "law". The Pali definition of Dhamma(Dharma), whose root is "dhar (to hold)" is "lokag dharetii ti dhammo" (it is called "law", since it holds the world (i.e., our society)). > > > T: Usually, any technical term that has several meanings is confusing to non-experts. On the other hand, a drawback the experts have is in using the several meanings to argue (or find fault) with one another! > > >Tadao: If there is no law, our society would disintegrate. > > > T: I absolutely agree with that. Thanks. > > Be happy, > Tep > === > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "tadaomiyamoto@" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Tep > > > > I'm not an expert in the field. > > > > > #129979 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:03 am Subject: Re: Nina's accident tadaomiyamot... Hi Azita Kun Nina is a driven person, who pushes herself hard. Her character may help her recover from the injury promptly. With Mettaa tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "azita" wrote: > > Hallo Nina and Jon, > > May you both have a speedy recovery. > dear Nina, take it easy and don't push too hard, allow the healing to do 'its thing'. > thinking of you. > > Live for understanding > azita > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > > > Dear Friends, > > > > [Bas Camelbeeck, thank you for informing us about your aunt - very helpful.] > #129980 From: "azita" Date: Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:20 am Subject: Re: Nina's accident gazita2002 Hallo Tadao, I agree with you about Nina being 'driven' and that quite possibly will assist her recovery. I guess I am thinking from nursing point of view, and I must say the people who want to help themselves certainly seem to recover quicker, many different conditions. live for understanding azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "tadaomiyamoto@..." wrote: > > Hi Azita > > Kun Nina is a driven person, who pushes herself hard. > > Her character may help her recover from the injury promptly. > > With Mettaa > > tadao > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "azita" wrote: > > > > Hallo Nina and Jon, > > > > May you both have a speedy recovery. > > dear Nina, take it easy and don't push too hard, allow the healing to do 'its thing'. > > thinking of you. > > > > Live for understanding > > azita > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > > > > > Dear Friends, > > > > > > [Bas Camelbeeck, thank you for informing us about your aunt - very helpful.] > > > #129981 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:18 pm Subject: Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. thomaslaw03 Dear Sarah, Han, Tadao, Thank you very much for your replies regarding the link between samsara and dukkha indicated in the suttas of SN. These three texts, SN 56.11, SN 35.21 and 27, do not actually have the term samsara. The text, SN 15.126, should be SN 15.3 (all together 20 texts in SN 15. Anamatagga Samyutta). It does contain the term samsara, but not the term dukkha. The text (SN 15.3 Assu) does not have the expression, dukkha is samsara (or samsara is dukkha). It seems that the whole collection, SN 15 Anamatagga Samyutta, does not have the expression, dukkha is samsara (or samsara is dukkha). Regards, Thomas #129982 From: "kanchuu2003" Date: Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:28 pm Subject: Re: Nina Broke Her Hip! kanchuu2003 Dear Nina! Warm Greetings! Wish you recover your health.. Regards, Nitesh --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi Bas, - > > Thank you so much for informing us. I am very sorry to know that your aunt is hospitalized. Please convey my condolences to her. > > Regards, > Tep > === > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Nina van Gorkom" wrote: > > > > Dear Ms Proctor, > > > > This is to inform you that my aunt Nina broke her hip Thursday and has been operated yesterday. She Will stay in bronovo hospital in THE Hague for the next few days. > > > > She is doing allright. > > > > Kind regards > > > > Bas Cammelbeeck > > > #129983 From: han tun Date: Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. hantun1 Dear Thomas,  I have said all I have to say. I have nothing more to add.  with metta, Han From: thomaslaw03 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 9:18 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1.  Dear Sarah, Han, Tadao, Thank you very much for your replies regarding the link between samsara and dukkha indicated in the suttas of SN. These three texts, SN 56.11, SN 35.21 and 27, do not actually have the term samsara. The text, SN 15.126, should be SN 15.3 (all together 20 texts in SN 15. Anamatagga Samyutta). It does contain the term samsara, but not the term dukkha. The text (SN 15.3 Assu) does not have the expression, dukkha is samsara (or samsara is dukkha). It seems that the whole collection, SN 15 Anamatagga Samyutta, does not have the expression, dukkha is samsara (or samsara is dukkha). Regards, Thomas #129984 From: "kanchuu2003" Date: Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:25 pm Subject: Why is Human life Precious? kanchuu2003 Hello All, Greetings! Why is our life precious? Nitesh #129985 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:58 pm Subject: Re: Why is Human life Precious? t.sastri Hi Nitesh, - Let me guess. Life is precious only because there is clinging. Be healthy, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kanchuu2003" wrote: > > Hello All, > > Greetings! > > Why is our life precious? > > Nitesh > #129986 From: "tadaomiyamoto@..." Date: Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:59 pm Subject: Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. tadaomiyamot... Hi Thomas To me, the phrase of "Sansaara is dukkha" sounds very odd. Arising and falling away of each moment is dukkha. Based on the above fact, a life, which consists of the series of these moments could be regarded as dukkha. But when we say so, I think, we are deviating from the viewpoint of the paramattha dhamma and describing our life in a more vague/conventional sense. The same with sansaara. Hence, when we say that sansaara is dukkha without knowing the true characteristics of this moment, it's tantamount to a mere speculation or, worse, to the proclaim made based merely on pessimism. Repeating billion or zillion times that sansaara is dukkha would not help us see the dukkha-ish nature of this moment. Mettaaya, tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, Han, Tadao, > > Thank you very much for your replies regarding the link between samsara and dukkha indicated in the suttas of SN. > > These three texts, SN 56.11, SN 35.21 and 27, do not actually have the term samsara. > > The text, SN 15.126, should be SN 15.3 (all together 20 texts in SN 15. Anamatagga Samyutta). It does contain the term samsara, but not the term dukkha. The text (SN 15.3 Assu) does not have the expression, dukkha is samsara (or samsara is dukkha). > > It seems that the whole collection, SN 15 Anamatagga Samyutta, does not have the expression, dukkha is samsara (or samsara is dukkha). > > Regards, > > Thomas > #129987 From: Kanchana Chuathong Date: Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nina Broke Her Hip! kchuathong Dear Nina and Jon,  Wish both of you get well soon, and may your deep understanding in kamma help you through this difficult time since it must be you, nobody else. Every moment passes away completely and never be back, just once in your life (just like mine 22 years ago).  With metta, Kanchana. <...> #129988 From: Kanchana Chuathong Date: Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:38 pm Subject: Program from Saigon to Da Lat kchuathong Dear Azita, This is the program from Saigon to Da Lat. Dang. ________________________________ From: azita <....> Hallo Nina and Jon, May you both have a speedy recovery. dear Nina, take it easy and don't push too hard, allow the healing to do 'its thing'. thinking of you. Live for understanding azita #129989 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:39 pm Subject: Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. thomaslaw03 Hi Tadao, "tadaomiyamoto@..." wrote: > > ... > > To me, the phrase of "Sansaara is dukkha" sounds very odd. > > Arising and falling away of each moment is dukkha. > > Based on the above fact, a life, which consists of the series of these moments could be regarded as dukkha. > > But when we say so, I think, we are deviating from the viewpoint > of the paramattha dhamma and describing our life in a more vague/conventional sense. > > The same with sansaara. > > Hence, when we say that sansaara is dukkha without knowing the true characteristics of this moment, it's tantamount to a mere speculation or, worse, to the proclaim made based merely on pessimism. > > Repeating billion or zillion times that sansaara is dukkha would not help us see the dukkha-ish nature of this moment. > Therefore, either 'samsara is dukkha' or 'samsara is linked to dukkha', is not found in SN 56.11, SN 35.21,27, SN 15.3, and the whole collection, SN 15. Anamatagga Samyutta. Regards, Thomas #129990 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:03 pm Subject: Re: Right Supports for Right Understanding sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > Somehow I've got a feeling that the discussion on right understanding that I have made so far is not yet as clear as it should. So please allow me to make it clearer as follows: > In order to develop "right understanding" the mind has to be non-distracted and unified through right concentration which is supported by right effort and right mindfulness. ... S: I would say, that in order to develop right understanding, there has to be the hearing of the Teachings and the very careful study, especially the careful study of dhammas (realities) as anatta. Whether we are talking about pariyatti (right intellectual understanding) or patipatti (direct right understanding, i.e. satipatthana), such understanding is always supported by right concentration, right effort and right mindfulness. If there is any idea of doing anything first, such as developing right concentration, right effort or right mindfulness first, it is not right understanding of the reality which appears now. Metta Sarah ===== #129991 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 9. sarahprocter... Dear Tadao, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "tadaomiyamoto@..." wrote: > > Dear Kun Nina > > Thank you for telling us about the final part of Ivan's funeral. > It was a sad event but sounded very beautiful, too. .... S: We were all very glad to have an opportunity to participate in the special and moving ceremony. It reminded me very much of a similar ceremony for Alan Driver. At the time, I was holding the urn of his ashes on the boat and when someone called to me to release it into the water, I couldn't let go until the instruction was repeated. Attachment even to ashes - just earth! Different moments, different cittas - it was mostly a very joyful occasion for Ivan's family and all of us - an opportunity to do the best we could at such a time. Metta Sarah p.s. I don't know quite when Ajahn started giving her lectures which you asked about, but I know she started studying with her teacher, A.Naeb, when she was in her mid-20s and her teacher soon asked her to help other groups, such as a prison group. I think the lectures started a few years later when she no longer went to retreats or had any idea of 'special time' and 'place' etc. ==== ===== #129992 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:20 pm Subject: Re: It Is An Illusion, a Mirage ... sarahprocter... Dear Tadao (& Tep), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "tadaomiyamoto@..." wrote: > Even monks have a lot of lobha; an attachment to tranquility, to freedom of time, to accumulation of the (mere) knowledge of Dhamma, etc. ... S: Anyone who is not an anagami still has attachment, a lot of lobha, for all kinds of sense objects. Visible object, sound, smell, taste and tangible objects and for concepts about these. Only the anagami has eradicated the deeply rooted latent tendencies for these. Metta Sarah ===== #129993 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:30 pm Subject: Re: Right Supports for Right Understanding sarahprocter... Dear Rob E (& Tep), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > I wish I had the sutta at hand - one day I must learn to keep track of what I read - but there is a nice one where the Buddha talks about the different orders in which some of the factors can be developed -- that some develop samatha first as a way towards vipassana, that others develop sati first and that this leads to concentration. Some develop both at the same time,.... .... S: You are thinking of the The Yuganaddha Sutta (In Tandem sutta), AN IV.170, or similar. We are reading about different accumulations, different kinds of cittas arising by conditions. There is never anyone to develop any factors or to choose what kind of cittas arise in what order. Just like now - who can choose whether metta arises next, or lobha, or seeing or right understanding of visible object? The Buddha knew all the different natures, dispositions, the 'asaya anusaya' (tendencies) of different cittas and pointed out all the various possibilities. However, only one way - that of satipatthana - to reach the goal. Metta Sarah ==== #129994 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:43 pm Subject: Re: Right Supports for Right Understanding sarahprocter... Hi Rob E (& Tep), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > Although I am uncertain on this subject, it seems to me that the scriptures seem to indicate that only those of superior faculties, rare individuals, such as Bahiya, can attain full enlightenment without jhana at least of a certain level, but I could be wrong! ... S: Bahiya is not a good example, however. Pls read what I wrote before on this topic: >S: We read in th Bahiya sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud1-10.html that Bahiya became fully enlightened (an arahant) after hearing a few sentences from the Buddha on the nature of realities. His wisdom was such that it penetrated the 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta and we may think that this is a relatively simple matter. In the commentary to this sutta (Ud-a, translated by Peter Masefield), about how Bahiya had first heard the Dhamma a hundred thousand kalpas in the past under the Buddha, Padumuttara and in that life had performed great meritorious deeds. He had `gone forth' under Buddha Kassapa and had lives in deva realms with `morality completely fulfilled'. In fact he had spent one entire Buddha sasana in the devaloka. Even so, in the present life, when he became highly respected by people after he was shipwrecked and wandered around with only garments made from bark, he mistakenly assumed he was an arahant because he was treated as one. In fact he had not achieved any level of attainment at all and was completely misguided, deceiving those who supported him and paid him respect. It took a visit by Great Brahma, a former deva companion and an anagami (non-returner)who took pity on him, to shock him to his senses. Great Brahma tells him: "You now, though being no arahant, roam about wearing the guise of a religious in the belief that you are an arahant. You Bahiya are certainly no arahant. Renounce this evil resorting to views." Hence, we see how even for those who have heard the Dhamma from Buddhas, have had kalpas of rebirths as devas with wise companions, and have attained all jhanas, they can still succomb badly to wrong views about self if they haven't reached the first stage of enlightenment. We read in the Ud-a about how the conceit of arahantship arose in him because of being used to `wanting little, contentment and effacement' for a long time and misjudging these states or because of having attained jhanas and therefore not experiencing defilements `as a result of abandoning in the form of suppression'. In other words, wrong views about attainments as a result of not experiencing defilements for a long time can be very dangerous. Urged by Great Brahma, he went to see the Buddha. As we read in the sutta, it was only on a third occasion that the Buddha agreed to teach him the Dhamma. In the Ud-a, we read that he was rejected twice because the Buddha knew "the thrill of that joy is too powerful - even if he hears Dhamma he will not, as yet, be able to pierce it. So let him wait until balance and equanimity reasert themselves."< **** Metta, Sarah ====== #129995 From: "Nina van Gorkom" Date: Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:16 pm Subject: (No subject) nilovg Daar Ms Proctor, We would like to have your emailadres? Nina wishes to send you a message and we (my husband Bas and myself) want to help her. Kind regards, Lieke Cammelbeeck #129996 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:49 pm Subject: Message for Lieke & Bas Cammelbeeck sarahprocter... Dear Lieke --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Nina van Gorkom" wrote: > We would like to have your emailadres? > > Nina wishes to send you a message and we (my husband Bas and myself) want to help her. .... This is my email address: sarahprocterabbott @yahoo.co.uk (no space) When you reply to my email address, would you also kindly give your email address too, so I can contact you/send a message to Nina. Thank you for your help. Sarah ====== #129997 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:51 pm Subject: Re: Right Supports for Right Understanding t.sastri Hi Sarah, - They say "Well begun is half done". Our discussion on right understanding was well begun! But when shall the other half be done too? ................ >S: I would say, that in order to develop right understanding, there has to be the hearing of the Teachings and the very careful study, especially the careful study of dhammas (realities) as anatta. Whether we are talking about pariyatti (right intellectual understanding) or patipatti (direct right understanding, i.e. satipatthana), such understanding is always supported by right concentration, right effort and right mindfulness. T: Yes, right understanding is always supported by right concentration, right effort and right mindfulness. But knowing that is only half done. ................ >S: If there is any idea of doing anything first, such as developing right concentration, right effort or right mindfulness first, it is not right understanding of the reality which appears now. T: You might have forgotten that right effort is integrated and supported by virtues; sila and right behavior come first as the support for samma-samadhi and pannaa. But it does not mean that a Bhikkhu's sila must be perfected first before he can develop samadhi! Bhikkhu bodhi also explains the relationship of sila as support for samadhi and panna in his book: The Noble Eightfold Path The Way to the End of Suffering. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/waytoend.html This is a very useful Sutta to study, Sarah: [Sekhapatipada Sutta is another good one! www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.053.than.html] "Bhikkhus, be virtuous, observe the higher code of rules, conduct yourselves with the right behaviour, seeing fear in the slightest fault. Bhikkhus, when the bhikkhu is virtuous, observing the higher code of rules, conducting himself with the right behaviour, seeing fear in the slightest fault, what further has he to do? "Even when walking he dispels his covetousness, aversion, sloth and torpor, restlessness and worry and doubts and his efforts are actively aroused, unconfused mindfulness is established, the body appeased without anger, the mind concentrated in one point. [Carato cepi, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno abhijjhaabyaapaado vigato hoti, thinamiddha.m uddhaccakukkucca.m vicikicchaa pahiinaa hoti, aaraddha.m hoti viiriya.m asalliina.m, upa.t.thitaa sati asammu.t.thaa, passaddho kaayo asaaraddho, samaahita.m citta.m ekagga.m.] "Even when walking, if he is active and scrupulous, it is said that he is forever with aroused effort to dispel." etc. etc. [AN 4.12 Siila sutta, or AN 002. Caravaggo 2. Siilasutta] ............ Be virtuous, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Somehow I've got a feeling that the discussion on right understanding that I have made so far is not yet as clear as it should. So please allow me to make it clearer as follows: > > In order to develop "right understanding" the mind has to be non-distracted and unified through right concentration which is supported by right effort and right mindfulness. > ... > S: I would say, that in order to develop right understanding, there has to be the hearing of the Teachings and the very careful study, especially the careful study of dhammas (realities) as anatta. Whether we are talking about pariyatti (right intellectual understanding) or patipatti (direct right understanding, i.e. satipatthana), such understanding is always supported by right concentration, right effort and right mindfulness. > > If there is any idea of doing anything first, such as developing right concentration, right effort or right mindfulness first, it is not right understanding of the reality which appears now. > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > #129998 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:05 pm Subject: Re: It Is An Illusion, a Mirage ... sarahprocter... Hi Connie, Thx for picking up the typo - I was about to, when Jon told me you'd got there first. I should add a few more to encourage you to join in a little more often:-)) Hope you and Mom are doing well and no falls for either of you! Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > > >Sarah: there are 29 rupas > > > > c: typo, make that 28. #129999 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:34 pm Subject: Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1. t.sastri Hi Thomas & Tadao, (Attention: Sarah, Alex) - Your conversation on samsaara is interesting! >Tadao: When we say that sansaara is dukkha without knowing the true characteristics of this moment, it's tantamount to a mere speculation or, worse, to the proclaim made based merely on pessimism. Repeating billion or zillion times that sansaara is dukkha would not help us see the dukkha-ish nature of this moment. >Thomas: Therefore, either 'samsara is dukkha' or 'samsara is linked to dukkha', is not found in SN 56.11, SN 35.21,27, SN 15.3, and the whole collection, SN 15. Anamatagga Samyutta. ---------- T: Trying to match, word by word, the phrase 'samsara is dukkha' to the Suttas might lead to disappointment, I think. Repeating or chanting 'samsara is dukkha' is not going to be fruitful either! In my sincere opinion, a careful reading of the following Buddha's words is going to be fruitful for sure: "It's because of not understanding and not penetrating noble release that we have wandered & transmigrated on such a long, long time, you & I. But when noble virtue is understood & penetrated, when noble concentration... noble discernment... noble release is understood & penetrated, then craving for becoming is destroyed, the guide to becoming (craving & attachment) is ended, there is now no further becoming." [AN 4.1, Anubuddha Sutta] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.001.than.html May I humbly note that the noble developments that end at noble release(from samsaara) begin with noble virtue? Be wise, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > > Hi Tadao, > > "tadaomiyamoto@" wrote: > > > > ... > > > > To me, the phrase of "Sansaara is dukkha" sounds very odd. > > > > Arising and falling away of each moment is dukkha. > >